My point or question is who has perfect faith in this life, or virtue or any of the rest of these things? Charity (agape love) would seem to be the epitome of a Christ like person and not something we can freely will ourselves to do, can we be intemperate or impatient and still display or should I say truly have charity (agape love) in our hearts.
2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID. 10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....
I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.
I feel true agape love is the removal of all desires to be right, to prove wrong, to hold or gain ground. Rather it is the EXACT opposite.
First it is to gain understanding so as to FIND agreement, even if one has to admit they were mistaken. It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts. It's about being thankful, respectful and gracious for every moment spent. Agape love is not blind and neither does it seek to cover. Neither does it have motives or desires, nor is it selfish or selfless (being only capable of giving love but not recieving love).
Hello Joe
Hi Arcturus,
You ask : If a person has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people or holds animosity toward some are they capable of agape love, charity?
Quoting Ray in his latest instalment Gehenna Fire Judgment : Does standing up for the Truths of Jesus Christ bring more persecution, condemnation, and ridicule from your "Christian" brothers and sisters than you are willing to endure?
Is the person you mention who you say "has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people" fit the description of being willing to endure persecution, condemnation and ridicule from his "Christian" brothers and sisters OR is the brother you mention against the person of his "Christian" brothers and sisters and willing for them to go to pagan Hell and desires to help them along the way?
IF the brother you mention believes in Hell then yes, I would agree that they are incapable of agape or phileo love because the Love of God is not apparently in them.
I personally do not believe that we are supposed to harm each other. Even Paul grieved and repented of hurting his brethren but latter was glad for the Godly outcome.
Thankfully he does not subscribe to the ET doctrine but does not see the need for so many other of the truths of our Lord, believing or at least stating that his unconditional love for all covers everything else. I have seen this philosophy before, but what I have been trying to get him to see is that this love (charity) is not something that just happens suddenly or instantaneously but that this is the culmination of all the other attributes of His Spirit within.
Often in Scripture we see our spiritual growing experience being compared to building a house, we are to build our house on a solid foundation, faith in the Rock that is Christ, not the shifting sand of human feelings and reasoning. The foundation of a house is not the end result though, our Master Builder leads us through the process of building our spiritual house step by step just as a physical building is made. Structural walls must be erected, a roof put in place and then all doors, windows, etc. If we think we can skip steps in this process the structure will not be inhabitable, it will fail. This is I believe what Peter is saying when he says, "add to your faith virtue," etc. (2Peter 1:5-7)
The worldly winds of feelings, emotion and seeking the praise of men will soon blow our shabby structure off the Rock foundation and back onto the shifting sand of this world.
2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID. 10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....
Arcturus, you have no idea how directly you hit the nail on the head, perfectly square! This discussion has him feeling not edified or seeing a need for correction but as a personal assault.
I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.
My friend has complained of feeling tortured and experiencing the wrath of God, when the attempt is made to help him understand that when he is trying to show charity/love to the world by his own efforts he rejects it, always coming back to "I am following the command of Jesus to love my brother." OK fine, what about not holding grudges, being angry with those who do not agree with you, how about being intemperate with your words, how about shouting of your good deeds and "love" on the streetcorners? What about the command to "sin no more?" Is this command fully obtainable in this flesh? We will sin less and less as we grow with Him as we will love more and more through growing in His Spirit. These commands are the goals we have before us, of where we will be when we are literally born again in the Spirit, when the corruptable becomes incorruptable (1Cor 15:42-45).
This spiritual growth to being truly charitable is not an easy or swift process, without recognizing what is wrong how does one ask and pray for the strength to overcome?
Perhaps you may find one maybe two thoughts in the above that might fit this particular episode you are experiencing with your brother. I believe it is also worth considering that the trials of our faith are not easy walks in the garden!
I found plenty! ;)
If any of this constructively applies to your expereince then I am rewarded. If not then I am rewarded to have been given the occasion to contemplate this difficult situation you have shared, as though it were mine.
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
Peace be to you both
Arcturus :)
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts.
Hi Joe,
Thank you for this thread. Your post and all the responses have really hit home for me . this scripture comes to mind:
1Tim1:5 "Now the end of the commandment is charity (agape) out of a pure
heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned."
Joe,
I do see your point. We can only hope that more people will come to truth.
Some people want to make a whole doctrine out of love. No doubt love is an important element in the message of scripture, but it is one of many, and when we try to hang our hat only on this hook it will eventually give way. We can piously state we love everyone, and quote scripture to justify our thoughts but in our human existence I don't believe it is entirely possible (in our flesh), some will fair better than others, but only our Father and Christ can give us the total love for each other, and one day They will.
Joe, I don't know whether the person you talk about feigns love or uses it as an idol of the heart but proper temperament and discernment is as important here as with anything, and without those things, their house will eventually fall like a house of cards. And when that happens they will be left with the choice of looking inward to their own failings or outward to the failings of those around them. Unfortunately, the beast within always looks out. My prayer for us all is to look within.
Blessings!
Craig
I start to feel comfortable maybe even satisfied that a stumble or fall is right around the corner.