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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: John9362 on July 17, 2014, 07:19:26 AM
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http://www.numberofabortions.com/
I feel so sad !! :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
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what is sad about it?
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I didn't mean to sound insensitive. It is sad. I think I just likened it to someone dieing in their sleep peacefully. But I don't think everyone agrees with that and I don't think I've givin it enough thought.
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abortion,
It is not only what your sins do to others, the babies, it is mostly what your sins do to you.
Indiana Bob
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I didn't mean to sound insensitive. It is sad. I think I just likened it to someone dieing in their sleep peacefully.
With the D&C method of abortion the living baby is cut up alive and dismembered in the womb. With the saline method the baby is chemically burned alive in the womb with salt solution. It is not a peaceful death at all for the baby. There will be an accounting for such actions. Yes, it's part of God's plan and purpose and many of the mothers have been kept ignorant of exactly what is being done to their baby. The nazi's killed six million jews during the holocaust. That is a drop in the bucket compared to how many babies we've aborted since Roe v. Wade. As Ray indicated in his towers teaching there is a recompense still to come in America.
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and there will be a price to pay for your judgements.
claudia
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and there will be a price to pay for your judgements.
claudia
I'm not judging any person in particular Claudia. That is between them and God. Are we not to lift our voices on high to speak out against the evils of our day? If we are not then that is a departure from what God has instructed his servants to do in the past. I can pull out the scriptures but I think we're all familiar with them.
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Hi,
When you have a lose and have a lost child then you may think very differently ,
we have 3 children who have grown up and have thier own kids allso with in family there was a lose due to comlications and Jos and i, hey you know what it cuts to the very core of you i dont care wether its abortion or other complications its the same thing a death of .......DEATH ....of..... YOUR child ,
its hurts like you dont know, what........from what i see and know for men its very different , when your a female you know what its like, does the pain go away , ...NO....you carry it for life,....
...noeleena...
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This is a touchy subject no doubt, perhaps maybe even some women reading this tread might of have had an abortion.
I believe any women who has was greatly deceived and I also think for the rest of their lives every time they see a little child they probably think of the little child they aborted through deception.
I don’t condemn any of these women although, I don’t agree with their decision to abort their child.
I would say she has no more free will or choice anymore then the rest of us. I do feel empathy for any women who had an abortion, it must be a painful burden to carry inwardly.
If God wanted us to live in a utopia He would of made it that way but its all about being made in the image of God and until we get to that image there will be much pain involved for all.
I don’t know how anyone can expect to have an experience of evil without evil. Without evil there can be no contrast and without contrast we are back in the garden of Eden again before the act of open disobedience against the law of God.
Also, there has been no child aborted that won’t be resurrected back to life again. It’s amazing to me to know an understand that every human being will be begotten of God, you know, born into the family of God . When has God ever said to any angel today you are my son ? But we human being will all hear that statement from our God.
And all things will be made new for the former things will pass away. Amen an God bless all of you women who have been deceived , my heart goes out to you. :)
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I was feeling numb and in shock, watching the numbers grow, every second a child is aborted.......about 3,600 in an hour world wide, every second, every hour, every day, month, year, it just doesn't stop ..................almost unbelievable !!
I see 298 people lose their lives in that horrible plane crash and see the world FREAKING out over the missile attack, my mind and heart wonder back to the abortion clock and the babies, I think to myself 'who cares for them' ??
298 people in a plane crash 4 days ago and during the same period over 300,000 abortions !!
Hard to take, my heart is so heavy !
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I was feeling numb and in shock, watching the numbers grow, every second a child is aborted.......about 3,600 in an hour world wide, every second, every hour, every day, month, year, it just doesn't stop ..................almost unbelievable !!
I see 298 people lose their lives in that horrible plane crash and see the world FREAKING out over the missile attack, my mind and heart wonder back to the abortion clock and the babies, I think to myself 'who cares for them' ??
298 people in a plane crash 4 days ago and during the same period over 300,000 abortions !!
Hard to take, my heart is so heavy !
One of my favorite verses since coming to this site is 1 Cor. 15:50: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It has been a great help as far as coping with suffering and death. When I hear about a plane crash or tornado or abortions or just a co-worker's grandfather dying, it's one of the first things that pops into my head, every time: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Of course, that's only half the story: the next thing that pops into my head is "They will live again." And that's an even greater source of comfort. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but one day God will be all in all--the aborted babies, the mothers, the killer doctors, the pro-life doctor killers--ALL in ALL. And of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. . .
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I'm going to diverge on this subject a bit and ask the question, where does "life" begin, in the physical sense? This is an serious question that became a very hot topic in the abortion debate in the past and now... in searching the Scripture what can you find out about this?
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind?
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 34:14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
Psa 104:29 You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:
Eze 37:9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."
v. 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Acts 17:25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
Rev 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Okay I assume there will be a lot of raised eyebrows at what I am indicating here. Well to me in these Scripture there seems to be a very clear connection that the breath brings the spirit and life to a person. Could this possibly include all of those precious little babies that have not been born? There is a curious comment in Job.
Job 10:18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me!
v. 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. (NKJV)
Job 10:19 I would have been just as if I had not come into being; I would have been fetched from the belly to the tomb. (CLV)
Job 10:19 as if I had never existed; carried from the womb to the grave. (ISV)
So what about the Scripture that speaks of God knowing somebody in the womb? God knows the end from the beginning and certainly He knows who He will bring into life or not. Does that make the death/abortion of these babies any less horrific, of course it does not.
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
Consider another thing, if all these millions of aborted/stillborn babies would be raised at the resurrection, would God bring them all to full term so they could live outside of the womb as many miscarriages happen very early in pregnancy? Well of course He could... but then what would the beginning of the next age be, a giant nursery? It would need to be and it would be a full time job for most of the population to care for all these babies. Well that's not such a bad thing, but is there any indication in Scripture that's what the next age is about? We know the next age is for judgment.
Anyway this is a hard subject and our emotions get caught up in it. But this is what I have found in Scripture, there is much more to it, but I think I have said enough.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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How do you explain Luke 1:39-41?
At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
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How do you explain Luke 1:39-41?
At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Well how do you explain that... does a baby in the womb have knowledge of what is going on in the world? Interesting how it connected with her being "filled with the Holy Spirit."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat brings up an interesting point.
The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.
A baby in a mother lives off its mother's breathe and nutrients.
Also, in the Law of Moses, if a pregnant woman was struck and lost the child within her, then monetary compensation had to be paid to her husband.
If a living person was intentionally killed, then the killer was subject to the death penalty. Even if they clung to the altar of sacrifice, they were to be dragged out and executed.
If a living person were killed by accident, not intentionally, then the killer had to flee to one of the six cities of refuge, three on the east of the Jordan River and three on the west, in order to be protected from the deceased person's relatives.
But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased. So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul. Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.
I do not know the answer to when a human becomes a living soul. I believe God will have to answer that question in the age to come. Is it at birth or conception?
But right now, my opinion based upon my understanding of Scriptures, is that a human is a living soul only if they have breathed the breathe of life, at which time they become a living soul.
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How do you explain Luke 1:39-41?
At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Well how do you explain that... does a baby in the womb have knowledge of what is going on in the world? Interesting how it connected with her being "filled with the Holy Spirit."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I'm not in a place where I can view references and look up words at the moment. Or compare versions. So the word "and". Was the leaping and filling at the same time, or subsequent?
And what about Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Is "from his mother's womb" meaning upon exit, or while he was there? So many questions, not enough answers.
And JfK as far as killing the unborn.
But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased. So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul. Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.
If you kill a pregnant mother because you have an issue with her would it be considered an intentional death of the unborn? You have a problem with the mother not the child. If that were true (and I'm not saying it is), then the penalty would not be death for killing the child so that doesn't help explain whether the child is considered a person at that point. At least to me.
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Abednego, I'm not understanding all your questions about John the Baptist while in the womb. As it turned out John was prophesied and predestined to be born, at that time with Christ.
Mat 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
v. 2 and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
v. 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight."
So John was to be born and prepare the way for Christ, but he was a normal baby and would not have had some kind of knowledge in the womb. I just don't see what you are getting at.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, you missed what I was getting at, but probably because I'm not clear. I was responding to your
where does "life" begin, in the physical sense?
I understand the pro life/culture of death debate over this question and why. I don't have interest in the debate myself. When I spoke of the baby leaping in the womb you stated thinking knowledge. I was only concerned with when life starts. As JfK stated The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.
There are many scriptures that back this up and you listed a lot of them.
But when you look at:
Lk 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
and
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
That tells me there is something going on before Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So man becomes a living soul in Gen 2:7 I have to believe that. But what of the baby jumping in the womb.
And also my previous question:
And what about Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Is "from his mother's womb" meaning upon exit, or while he was there?
I'm not questioning when life begins form an abortion standpoint, I could care less. I'm just wondering if living soul starts at Gen 2:7, then what is going on in the womb? Obviously more than I realize, I just don't know what.
Hope I'm being clear.
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Okay Abednego, I get it now. God certainly does know if a baby is destined to be born and take the breath of life and John the Baptist certainly was, it is clear he was sanctified or set apart for a special work in his life. He was ordained to be who he was even before he was conceived, to be the prophet that prepared the way for Christ. So John was to be under the influence of the Spirit of God his whole life, as the Scripture says "filled with the Holy Spirit," like all the other prophets of the OT. The different translations go both ways on when the Holy Spirit filling him, "from" meaning before or at birth. I really don't see how that matters though.
I sometimes check what the Jewish beliefs are about a subject, because they have a heritage that holds strongly to what was taught in the OT from the prophets. It's interesting what they say about this.
from the site Judaism 101--
Abortion--
Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.
An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.
http://web.archive.org/web/20081217181056/http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm#Abortion
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I'm just wondering if living soul starts at Gen 2:7, then what is going on in the womb?
What I meant about does the baby in the womb have knowledge... well did baby John jump because it heard Mary and knew she was carrying baby Jesus? That's what I was getting at, a fetus or even a newborn doesn't 'know' these things. Knowledge comes from experience and a fetus has none, I do not believe it can reason or even really think yet, so what can it know or do? Yes it moves around and responds to things, but I think that is more of a reflex type action.
I'm certainly no expert on these things and researching is difficult, but I do believe a fetus is precious and is a form of life, maybe not completed until birth and breath. I think abortions are a part of the experience of evil we are going through in this world, a great depth of ignorance and selfishness.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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did Jesus lift His voice on high to speak about the evil, social topics of His day? no he did not. why should we? ALL is of God.
i had an abortion when i was 17 yrs old. my parents drove me to san antonio from the small town we lived in south texas. there was no (legal) facility that would do abortions in my town. it was a horrible experience for all of us. it was an excruciating time and decision we had to make. i had overdosed/seizured/lost consciousness on cocaine while not knowing i was in the early weeks of pregnancy. i survived the cocaine ordeal by the mercy of God. (never told my parents about that part. i had graduated from high school, not living at home). i have asked God's forgiveness for putting my parents through such a horrible ordeal, for the death of the newly formed, unborn child, and forgiveness for myself. and every time i see a bumper sticker about abortion i plead for forgiveness again. and reading this thread telling how there will be an accounting and recompense for abortion just rips it all open again.
pointing the finger at all women who have ever had an abortion (especially without knowing why) makes one appear to be their judge. let all men be silenced and only God be the Righteous Judge.
claudia
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did Jesus lift His voice on high to speak about the evil, social topics of His day? no he did not. why should we? ALL is of God.
i had an abortion when i was 17 yrs old. my parents drove me to san antonio from the small town we lived in south texas. there was no (legal) facility that would do abortions in my town. it was a horrible experience for all of us. it was an excruciating time and decision we had to make. i had overdosed/seizured/lost consciousness on cocaine while not knowing i was in the early weeks of pregnancy. i survived the cocaine ordeal by the mercy of God. (never told my parents about that part. i had graduated from high school, not living at home). i have asked God's forgiveness for putting my parents through such a horrible ordeal, for the death of the newly formed, unborn child, and forgiveness for myself. and every time i see a bumper sticker about abortion i plead for forgiveness again. and reading this thread telling how there will be an accounting and recompense for abortion just rips it all open again.
pointing the finger at all women who have ever had an abortion (especially without knowing why) makes one appear to be their judge. let all men be silenced and only God be the Righteous Judge.
claudia
Peace Claudia,
Let go of what is past.
Jesus will heal all our hurts.
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Amen.
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And a yippee Amen too ;)
Rhys
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Hello All
Abortion? or whatever else? evil, sin etc, it has to be,no way around it.
Ray's email
Dear Nameless:
Thank you for your email and questions.
There are billions and billions of people that God has not yet saved. Your questions is more basic than just why didn't God save those in the twin towers.
All of such things are examples of evil. God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.
Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.
Evil is necessary for the production or development of good. You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.
All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness. One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.
All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!
May God be with you and grant you wisdom and understanding.
Sincerely,
Ray
PS JFK , I believe God said some where that he knew you or us before we were even conceived,I don't think we had breath or breathing at that time.
Walt.
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i have asked God's forgiveness for putting my parents through such a horrible ordeal, for the death of the newly formed, unborn child, and forgiveness for myself. and every time i see a bumper sticker about abortion i plead for forgiveness again. and reading this thread telling how there will be an accounting and recompense for abortion just rips it all open again.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Claudia, you have to believe that and walk in that. You don't have to continue to plead forgiveness every time you see a bumper sticker. You are forgiven and will never have to account for that again. Now believe that...because it's true!!
What if a male when he was 20 years old who has posted on this thread caused his 18 year old girlfriend to get an abortion and now he is in his 50's? This isn't a woman only issue. As a man I'm as guilty for pressuring a girl as you would be for going through with it and perhaps the man is even more responsible.
Although I know of and walk in such forgiveness yet I also know that all this sin will have to be dealt with on an individual basis in the ages to come if we don't repent now and I also know from the old testament [which is still part of God's word] that nations as a whole bear the weight in the here and now for the collective sin of the land. I point us to Ray's papers on the towers. Even now I believe we are beginning to see coming to pass in this nation what Ray warned us about. It is what it is.
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Consider another thing, if all these millions, probably billions of stillborn babies would be raised at the resurrection, would God bring them all to full term so they could live outside of the womb as many miscarriages happen very early in pregnancy? Well of course He could... but then what would the beginning of the next age be, a giant nursery? It would need to be and it would be a full time job for most of the population to care for all these babies. Well that's not such a bad thing, but is there any indication in Scripture that's what the next age is about? We know the next age is for judgment.
For millions of women like me, I hope what Kat says is true. I would hate to be confronted with what could have been. That alone would rip me to pieces.
I recall watching 'The Silent Scream' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON-8PP6zgQ (ftp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON-8PP6zgQ) - an ultrasound video about abortion as Arion described, screened in my local church. Just into my twenties, I remember recoiling with horror and vowing never to have an abortion. Yet, a decade later & in a difficult marriage, I couldn't face the prospect of raising a second child. Truth be told, I never flinched and though I do have regrets now, there is no sorrow or anguish. That I believe is of God too. With all that is going on in my life, I couldn't have dealt with that pain as well. But at 42, soon after becoming a believer, I found myself pregnant again and this time I couldn't go through the procedure, despite the risks of a late pregnancy. I chose to have my second child and became an ardent pro-lifer. Till BT, and then I realized I had no free-will at all about it, so how could I boast? God has purposed life for my child and orchestrated events in my life such that would not allow her life to be terminated. It couldn't have been any other way. This knowledge is so profound that it helps to contemplate upon it especially when I begin to doubt the choices I made.
Yes, abortion is evil, but a necessary one that humanity might know good. And yes, we must speak out against it for we are called to resist evil.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
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Hi folks,
Somewhat different topic although related I think.
What if God had allowed a larger minority e.g. church members to know of the resurrection of all, without the indwelling of God's spirit to guide them? Would that knowledge have been a benefit or would it have led to more "license" to sin and seek grace selfishly?
What if the "many" knew and believed that they could just sin and go to confession and find absolute forgiveness the way some seem to teach? Would most or perhaps ALL sinners just take advantage since there would be no fear of losing their salvation or their place in "the heaven of God" IF they believed that God was required to forgive if they just said sorry with contrition and performed some penance?
I have considered over the years of my parenting that children who are not admonished and given a reward of punishment for their misdeeds tend to take advantage and become more selfish and rebellious. Of course all are individuals and some are less likely to take advantage due to circumstances, but I think that humans in general tend toward resisting obedience to God's way of life. We are after all in natural possession of an evil mind in various degrees, are we not?
So what would happen if we who have been spiritually gifted with knowledge were successful in preaching to others not yet called of God, what we have learned? Would that success make the world a better place to live for all people? I doubt it...
please comment, Indiana Bob
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Kat brings up an interesting point.
The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.
A baby in a mother lives off its mother's breathe and nutrients.
Also, in the Law of Moses, if a pregnant woman was struck and lost the child within her, then monetary compensation had to be paid to her husband.
If a living person was intentionally killed, then the killer was subject to the death penalty. Even if they clung to the altar of sacrifice, they were to be dragged out and executed.
If a living person were killed by accident, not intentionally, then the killer had to flee to one of the six cities of refuge, three on the east of the Jordan River and three on the west, in order to be protected from the deceased person's relatives.
But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased. So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul. Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.
I do not know the answer to when a human becomes a living soul. I believe God will have to answer that question in the age to come. Is it at birth or conception?
But right now, my opinion based upon my understanding of Scriptures, is that a human is a living soul only if they have breathed the breathe of life, at which time they become a living soul.
Hi John,
Doesn't seem like monetary compensations to me for causing a woman to miscarry. More like death.
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, (KJV)
Exo 21:22 When men strive together and strike a pregnant woman, and her child comes forth, and no mishap comes to be, he shall be fined, yea fined just as the woman's possessor shall impose on him, and he will pay through mediators. "
Exo 21:23 Yet if a mishap comes to be then you will give soul for soul,
[/b] (CLV)
Striking a woman, physical duress or even mental stress can induce labor. I looked at the word in the kjv using strongs for "come forth" or "depart from her" and it said "begotten" as one of the definitions. What I'm seeing her is that if a man harm a pregnant woman and induce her into labor but no harm comes to the child then he pays a fine. IF the child dies, in otherwords, "Yet if mishap comes" then... LIFE FOR LIFE. He is put to death.
yaw-tsaw'
A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: - X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.
Total KJV occurrences: 1068
This seems like strong argument in favor of a pregnant woman child being considered life, after all, the next verse says LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE (man who struck the woman).
Anyway, I'm open minded on this subject but thought I would chime in.
In Christ,
Alex
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Kat brings up an interesting point.
The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.
A baby in a mother lives off its mother's breathe and nutrients.
Also, in the Law of Moses, if a pregnant woman was struck and lost the child within her, then monetary compensation had to be paid to her husband.
If a living person was intentionally killed, then the killer was subject to the death penalty. Even if they clung to the altar of sacrifice, they were to be dragged out and executed.
If a living person were killed by accident, not intentionally, then the killer had to flee to one of the six cities of refuge, three on the east of the Jordan River and three on the west, in order to be protected from the deceased person's relatives.
But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased. So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul. Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.
I do not know the answer to when a human becomes a living soul. I believe God will have to answer that question in the age to come. Is it at birth or conception?
But right now, my opinion based upon my understanding of Scriptures, is that a human is a living soul only if they have breathed the breathe of life, at which time they become a living soul.
Hi John,
Doesn't seem like monetary compensations to me for causing a woman to miscarry. More like death.
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, (KJV)
Exo 21:22 When men strive together and strike a pregnant woman, and her child comes forth, and no mishap comes to be, he shall be fined, yea fined just as the woman's possessor shall impose on him, and he will pay through mediators. "
Exo 21:23 Yet if a mishap comes to be then you will give soul for soul,
[/b] (CLV)
Striking a woman, physical duress or even mental stress can induce labor. I looked at the word in the kjv using strongs for "come forth" or "depart from her" and it said "begotten" as one of the definitions. What I'm seeing her is that if a man harm a pregnant woman and induce her into labor but no harm comes to the child then he pays a fine. IF the child dies, in otherwords, "Yet if mishap comes" then... LIFE FOR LIFE. He is put to death.
yaw-tsaw'
A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: - X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.
Total KJV occurrences: 1068
This seems like strong argument in favor of a pregnant woman child being considered life, after all, the next verse says LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE (man who struck the woman).
Anyway, I'm open minded on this subject but thought I would chime in.
In Christ,
Alex
I think you slipped your own interpretation in there. In your next to last paragraph you state, "...LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE." Where does the Scripture say that? That an unborn child is LIFE?
If a pregnant woman is hit, and she miscarries, then the child is either stillborn or born alive. A stillborn child is not alive. A stillborn child does not breathe, does not move, does not eat---it is dead.
The Scripture says monetary damages are to be paid. Only if the child is born alive, breathing, then dies or if the mother subsequently dies, does the Scripture say Life for Life.
We must be careful with Scriptures and not read are own interpretations into them.
The fundamental question is when does human life begin, when does a man become a living soul---at conception or at birth (usually about nine months later).
In Genesis, Adam became a living soul when the breathe of life was breathed into him by God. Breathe in the nostrils and lungs.
In Ezekiel, the chapter on the valley of dry bones. For a large number of people, God made all the bones come together, sinews and muscles came upon the bones, and the bodies were covered in flesh. But the bodies did not come alive until God caused the wind, breathe to enter their bodies, and then the bodies became alive.
I don't see in the Scriptures where a man is a living soul unless he breathes the breathe of life. When you stop breathing, then you are a dead soul.
Also, Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again to live. What is of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Either way, you must be born to live. Jesus was not referring to conception but to actual birth. We know Jesus was talking about birth because He said those born of the Spirit would be like the wind. Even though the Elect have God's Spirit in them (conception), they are not born of the Spirit until the Resurrection from the dead, when they will be like the wind. Life begins at birth, both physical and spiritual.
-
Kat brings up an interesting point.
The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.
A baby in a mother lives off its mother's breathe and nutrients.
Also, in the Law of Moses, if a pregnant woman was struck and lost the child within her, then monetary compensation had to be paid to her husband.
If a living person was intentionally killed, then the killer was subject to the death penalty. Even if they clung to the altar of sacrifice, they were to be dragged out and executed.
If a living person were killed by accident, not intentionally, then the killer had to flee to one of the six cities of refuge, three on the east of the Jordan River and three on the west, in order to be protected from the deceased person's relatives.
But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased. So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul. Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.
I do not know the answer to when a human becomes a living soul. I believe God will have to answer that question in the age to come. Is it at birth or conception?
But right now, my opinion based upon my understanding of Scriptures, is that a human is a living soul only if they have breathed the breathe of life, at which time they become a living soul.
Hi John,
Doesn't seem like monetary compensations to me for causing a woman to miscarry. More like death.
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, (KJV)
Exo 21:22 When men strive together and strike a pregnant woman, and her child comes forth, and no mishap comes to be, he shall be fined, yea fined just as the woman's possessor shall impose on him, and he will pay through mediators. "
Exo 21:23 Yet if a mishap comes to be then you will give soul for soul,
[/b] (CLV)
Striking a woman, physical duress or even mental stress can induce labor. I looked at the word in the kjv using strongs for "come forth" or "depart from her" and it said "begotten" as one of the definitions. What I'm seeing her is that if a man harm a pregnant woman and induce her into labor but no harm comes to the child then he pays a fine. IF the child dies, in otherwords, "Yet if mishap comes" then... LIFE FOR LIFE. He is put to death.
yaw-tsaw'
A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: - X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.
Total KJV occurrences: 1068
This seems like strong argument in favor of a pregnant woman child being considered life, after all, the next verse says LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE (man who struck the woman).
Anyway, I'm open minded on this subject but thought I would chime in.
In Christ,
Alex
I think you slipped your own interpretation in there. In your next to last paragraph you state, "...LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE." Where does the Scripture say that? That an unborn child is LIFE?
If a pregnant woman is hit, and she miscarries, then the child is either stillborn or born alive. A stillborn child is not alive. A stillborn child does not breathe, does not move, does not eat---it is dead.
The Scripture says monetary damages are to be paid. Only if the child is born alive, breathing, then dies or if the mother subsequently dies, does the Scripture say Life for Life.
We must be careful with Scriptures and not read are own interpretations into them.
The fundamental question is when does human life begin, when does a man become a living soul---at conception or at birth (usually about nine months later).
In Genesis, Adam became a living soul when the breathe of life was breathed into him by God. Breathe in the nostrils and lungs.
In Ezekiel, the chapter on the valley of dry bones. For a large number of people, God made all the bones come together, sinews and muscles came upon the bones, and the bodies were covered in flesh. But the bodies did not come alive until God caused the wind, breathe to enter their bodies, and then the bodies became alive.
I don't see in the Scriptures where a man is a living soul unless he breathes the breathe of life. When you stop breathing, then you are a dead soul.
Also, Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again to live. What is of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Either way, you must be born to live. Jesus was not referring to conception but to actual birth. We know Jesus was talking about birth because He said those born of the Spirit would be like the wind. Even though the Elect have God's Spirit in them (conception), they are not born of the Spirit until the Resurrection from the dead, when they will be like the wind. Life begins at birth, both physical and spiritual.
Hi John,
Yes, I was interpreting a bit. I was coming from the perspective that "life" for "life" could only be true if that unborn child was considered a life to begin with. What I was seeing was that if the child perishes due to the physical action taken against the pregnant woman, then the man will be put to death for it. Otherwise, how can you say, "life for life?"
However, I concede that your interpretation makes more sense and considers the "sum of thy word." I feel that you have the right of it. My interpretation was off and included no other witnesses.
Thanks for the wisdom.
God bless,
Alex