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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Rick Longva on August 18, 2018, 11:29:05 PM

Title: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Rick Longva on August 18, 2018, 11:29:05 PM
Did Ray believe that the Earth and the heavens are going to be destroyed (obliterated), and a new Earth and Heavens will be created. I can't seem to find anywhere where this is written about. Thanks
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 19, 2018, 06:14:44 PM
Hi Rick, I could find nothing where Ray spicifically taught on this subject, maybe in an email, but I didn't have time to search through the many of those.

If you are seeing this somewhere in scripture, and  are understanding it to be literal, thats because  spiritual principles are being laid out in physical terms, as so much of scripture is. If Ray had taught on this subject, I feel confident he would have taught this from a spiritual perspective, because that would be the only scriptural truth.

Ray taught plenty  on the spiritual things of God. In fact he said, " First the physical then the spiritual". In his paper  Foundation Truths. Maybe this will shed some light on this for you.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,6452.0.html

Jesus said, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you” (John 14:26).

“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.” (John 16:13)

Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 19, 2018, 06:26:19 PM
This is a link to the audio on Foundation Truth.

https://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%2002-03-08.mp3
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Rick Longva on August 19, 2018, 07:43:50 PM
I don't believe it will be obliterated and a new Earth and heavens created. I was just wondering if Ray, or anyone here had any thoughts about that. Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Horan on August 19, 2018, 11:55:31 PM
I don't believe it will be obliterated and a new Earth and heavens created. I was just wondering if Ray, or anyone here had any thoughts about that. Thanks for the reply.

Hi Rick. It appears to me that this is a problematic issue with regard to those who believe in universal reconciliation. I personally believe that all life on earth will be destroyed at the end of this, current age. Jesus said that it will be just as in the days of Noah, and Peter makes it quite clear that destruction by fire will ensue in this coming judgement. I understand that many things need to be understood in spiritual terms rather than literal but, while I firmly believe that all will ultimately be happily reconciled to God, I read this end time event as destruction by some form of literal fire.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: indianabob on August 20, 2018, 12:31:55 AM
Hi Mark,
Regarding our future here on the planet earth.

A plausible story that I have believed for quite a while is as follows.

Jesus the Christ returns at the appointed time and takes control of world government.
Whomever is left alive on the earth continues living their life span as the earth is renewed.
A human government may exist but Satan will be put away and not be able to influence mankind.
After an age of perhaps 1000 years with Christ ruling in peace and the results of that rule having
provided a large population to grow and prosper, Satan will be loosed once more to test the whole world and from then the story is not clear.
In any case Christ will eventually put down all sin and even death and then will turn the whole system over to his father and father God will make His home with us here on a NEW earth. So If God is going to be here and we are all going to be immortal (spiritual) then the future earth can be quite a bit different than it is today. e.g. no more volcanoes or storm etc. and we won't ever die so there needs to be lots of fruitful challenges and opportunities that God will provide.
Let your imagination explore that scenario... :)

= = =

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 
1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 
1Co 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 
1Co 15:27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 
1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 



Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 20, 2018, 01:35:48 AM
Imagination may or may not be a peacable exercise, but remember what Paul wrote:. Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the mind of man what glories await...
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 20, 2018, 03:09:01 PM
I don't believe it will be obliterated and a new Earth and heavens created. I was just wondering if Ray, or anyone here had any thoughts about that. Thanks for the reply.

Hi Rick. It appears to me that this is a problematic issue with regard to those who believe in universal reconciliation. I personally believe that all life on earth will be destroyed at the end of this, current age. Jesus said that it will be just as in the days of Noah, and Peter makes it quite clear that destruction by fire will ensue in this coming judgement. I understand that many things need to be understood in spiritual terms rather than literal but, while I firmly believe that all will ultimately be happily reconciled to God, I read this end time event as destruction by some form of literal fire.
Silly me,   thinking  when I found Universal Reconciliation I was free of that wrathful God of fire  and destruction.  I should have known it was to good to be true. ;)

1 Corinthians 2

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of theLord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 20, 2018, 04:09:51 PM
Those litteral Earth and Heavens are already sooo beautiful and perfect... I wish it remains « eternally »... What if these new Earth and new Heavens were the same we know right now, but with a paramount change: a change in humanity’s heart caused by God’s salvation? What if men and women deeply transformed by God’s Love and Glory start to take care of this earth? From my point of view: ever since God entered my life, I see my environment differently, even an ant I don’t want to kill from now on, for I see God’s work through it.. Not an ecological act, rather a way to glorify Our Father in Heaven by paying respect to the nature He created through Our Lord Jesus Christ. What a great world it would be, even if litteral.. No more economic profits, no more fights over resources.. Sharing, giving, enjoying it all together without any desire to earn anything but to glorify God, thanks to these new Heavens God would place into a new humanity’s heart.. Imagination, uhh?.. 😉
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 20, 2018, 04:31:21 PM
Thank you Michele and Amen to all you said☺

Thank you Lord for all your magnificent ways and perfect wisdom.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My Statutes, and ye shall keep My Judgments, and do them... Without Me ye can do nothing"
(Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 15:5).
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 20, 2018, 05:47:21 PM
Genesis 8

19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


This is God’s response after the Flood. I see it as  the expression of his mercy, that even though there will still be evil in the world and in the hearts of people in the future, he promises he will not curse the entire earth, nor destroy every creature in it again.  I can't  believe this iis a  comparison between methods of destruction. What kind of promise of mercy sounds like this: “I will never flood the earth again, but fire, yes, I will burn you up instead because of my great mercy for you!”?

Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: ML on August 20, 2018, 06:15:14 PM
Was thinking, even if there was no literal new universe, what if there were universal renovations and changes to things?

Also, was shown this before, at least in terms of elements. Maybe literal elements too:

Galatians 4
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

2 Peter 3
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 20, 2018, 06:51:05 PM
Amen Wanda! What a great insight about Noah and the flood 👌
ML, I agree with you: great renovations, huge cleansing, letting go of the old and bringing out the new by changing habits and ways of treating the world around  👏

God Our Father, I pray it’s in Your Perfect Plan to enlighten us about these new Earth and Heavens, may it be the time for your children to learn more about it, for Your Glory in Christ only  🙏
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 20, 2018, 07:20:35 PM
« Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" (II Cor. 5:17)
Parentheses and capital letters by L. Ray Smith , in Lake Of Fire Part XI.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 20, 2018, 07:51:44 PM
I fell on this:
« Luk 11:24  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

Luk 11:25  And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished

I see something like this: when Christ comes in us, then He starts to clean everything soiled inside our hearts, and of course it reverberates on our deeds, one of these being the simplest and obvious one: we clean our houses, we make things better and « garnish » our environment.
What if... we put it on the scale of humanity, the earth, the entire world 🤔 ?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Horan on August 20, 2018, 10:22:34 PM
I don't believe it will be obliterated and a new Earth and heavens created. I was just wondering if Ray, or anyone here had any thoughts about that. Thanks for the reply.

Hi Rick. It appears to me that this is a problematic issue with regard to those who believe in universal reconciliation. I personally believe that all life on earth will be destroyed at the end of this, current age. Jesus said that it will be just as in the days of Noah, and Peter makes it quite clear that destruction by fire will ensue in this coming judgement. I understand that many things need to be understood in spiritual terms rather than literal but, while I firmly believe that all will ultimately be happily reconciled to God, I read this end time event as destruction by some form of literal fire.
Silly me,   thinking  when I found Universal Reconciliation I was free of that wrathful God of fire  and destruction.  I should have known it was to good to be true. ;)

1 Corinthians 2

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of theLord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I see no good reason whatsoever to dismiss the plausibility of God's wrath being expressed in literal destruction. Just examine the world we live in. Examine the history of the past 2,000 years. Examine the 20th Century. Aren't the examples too numerous to count of God's judgement being expressed in horrific, literal terms?  What would actually be unusual about it? And I think the scriptural evidence easily supports this expectation. And that's all I intend to say about it. I've corresponded with Rick before, and I was responding to his query, even though it was mainly directed toward understanding what Ray may have said or written on this subject.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 20, 2018, 11:00:34 PM
Couldn’t find it, but Ray taught us that men create their own heavens (beliefs, idols of heart), those same heavens from which the dragon falls down in Revelation 12. It is also the moment when believers abandon their first Love, Christ. The Earth represents the called ones (who turn themselves towards churches build with the hands of men).
The new covenant is no more the ancient covenant: Hebrew 8:13: « By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. »
New wine into new wineskin, new sepulcre in which Jesus is placed after the crucifixion, new Jerusalem..
So, new Heavens and Earth, wouldn’t it be the same after all: a totally new way for people to believe, at least Faith for the True God, the One and Only God throught Jesus Christ?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 20, 2018, 11:46:32 PM
Sorry for you gloom and doomers, but it does help to have some understanding of the Scriptures.

In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 21, 2018, 12:17:48 AM
Couldn’t find it, but Ray taught us that men create their own heavens (beliefs, idols of heart), those same heavens from which the dragon falls down in Revelation 12. It is also the moment when believers abandon their first Love, Christ. The Earth represents the called ones (who turn themselves towards churches build with the hands of men).
The new covenant is no more the ancient covenant: Hebrew 8:13: « By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. »
New wine into new wineskin, new sepulcre in which Jesus is placed after the crucifixion, new Jerusalem..
So, new Heavens and Earth, wouldn’t it be the same after all: a totally new way for people to believe, at least Faith for the True God, the One and Only God throught Jesus Christ?

Hi Michelle, this is what I see.

Heb. 8:11

11 And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.

This shows that full knowledge of God will be in everyone, and it also implies that no one will have to command anyone to know Him or His will. Commands are a function of the Old Covenant, and when the New Covenant is universally implemented, no commands are necessary in the sense that we understand them today.

Cor. 5:17,

17 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

When everyone is truly “a new creature,” then John’s broader vision of the future is fulfilled. Just as our heaven and our earth is renewed through Christ on an individual level (as our old man is put to death and we walk out the life of the New Creation Man), so also does John present this as a universal promise.

John then links this to the marriage theme on its highest level—the marriage of heaven and earth. This fulfills Jesus’ prayer in Matt. 6:10,

10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.



Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 21, 2018, 12:21:14 AM
Sorry for you gloom and doomers, but it does help to have some understanding of the Scriptures.

In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.
Aaaaand here is the enlightenment... 😅
Safe and clear, yep 👍
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Heidi on August 21, 2018, 12:25:16 AM
I believe that the earth is important to God and that it will continue to be inhabited by mankind even after judgement and fire.

Isaiah 60:21 "Then all your people will be righteous; They will possess the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified."

Just my two cents worth....
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Heidi on August 21, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
"Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end..." Isaiah 9:7
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 21, 2018, 12:48:15 AM
Habakkuk 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: ML on August 21, 2018, 01:24:49 AM
Sorry for you gloom and doomers, but it does help to have some understanding of the Scriptures.

In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.
Well John, if we're going to work in gardens and cow manure for all eternity, with women in long dresses and men in cowboy attire, some changes have to be made right? 😁
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 21, 2018, 01:37:28 PM
Sorry for you gloom and doomers, but it does help to have some understanding of the Scriptures.

In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.
Well John, if we're going to work in gardens and cow manure for all eternity, with women in long dresses and men in cowboy attire, some changes have to be made right? 😁

A future with women and cowboys sounds good to me.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: indianabob on August 21, 2018, 03:06:19 PM
Hope you get what you're after John,
But my understanding of the elect is as follows; and you are attaining to election are you not?
Bob
= =

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 
1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 
1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 
1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 
=
1Co 15:40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 

1Co 15:41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 
1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 21, 2018, 04:25:41 PM
Quote
I see no good reason whatsoever to dismiss the plausibility of God's wrath being expressed in literal destruction. Just examine the world we live in. Examine the history of the past 2,000 years. Examine the 20th Century. Aren't the examples too numerous to count of God's judgement being expressed in horrific, literal terms?  What would actually be unusual about it? And I think the scriptural evidence easily supports this expectation. And that's all I intend to say about it. I've corresponded with Rick before, and I was responding to his query, even though it was mainly directed toward understanding what Ray may have said or written on this subject.

Horan, I wasn't dismissing your thoughts, but found this part of your comment a bit funny.

Quote
"It appears to me that this is a problematic issue with regard to those who believe in universal reconciliation".
 

I understood this to mean those of us who don't see this as you do have a problem, .and after all my deligent efforts in studying Gods word on the matter, you came in to dispel all my hard work and understanding, by letting me know I have a problem.. Sorry,  but I couldn't resist teasing you a little.☺
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 21, 2018, 05:02:08 PM
Hope you get what you're after John,
But my understanding of the elect is as follows; and you are attaining to election are you not?
Bob
= =

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
=
1Co 15:40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1Co 15:41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I cannot fool you, can I-Bob?  Thanks for the sermon.  I guess I'll sleep in this Sunday and not associate with the sinners in the church.

For you see, there are Scriptures that tell us God chose the Elect prior to creation.
If I happen to be one of the Elect, then I had nothing to do with it.  I cannot Elect  myself, nor can I un-Elect myself.  None of your Scriptures can save me.  Jesus is my Savior, which He will do at my appointed time, when I will stand up and see He Who saves me.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Rick Longva on August 21, 2018, 11:17:13 PM
The verses in question (that are said to prove God will obliterate the Earth and the heavens) are from 2 Peter 3:10-13. Here they are from the CLNT:

"Now the day of the Lord will be arriving as a thief, in which the heavens shall be passing by with a booming noise, yet the elements shall be dissolved by combustion, and the earth and the works in it shall be found.
 11 At these all, then, dissolving, to what manner of men must you belong in holy behavior and devoutness,
 12 hoping for and hurrying the presence of God's day, because of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements decompose by combustion!
 13 Yet we, according to His promises, are hoping for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness is dwelling."

I like to find proofs from the scriptures-in the scriptures. I know there are many who take this portion of scripture and use it to prove the elements in question are the elements that make up the Earth and heavens. I do not believe that is the case (and Horan, there are many who believe in the reconciliation of all who believe this Earth and the heavens are going to be obliterated, and God will create all new). These elements that Peter speaks of are found in the writings of Paul.

Galatians 4:3, 9:  "Thus we also, when we were minors, were enslaved under the elements of the world."  "Yet now, knowing God, yet rather being known by God, how are you turning back again to the infirm and poor elements for which you want to slave again anew? And in

Colossians 2:8, 20: "Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ."   "If, then, you died together with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to decrees."

And Hebrews 5:12:  "For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment."

All of these elements have to be destroyed in order for all to be all in God. The Earth and the heavens do not have to be destroyed, as Wanda pointed out from Genesis 8:21. Fire is always used to purge, cleanse, each of us will be salted with fire (Mark 949), our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). We are told that we who believe are a New Creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). At present we, the believers, are being purged of these elements as we are being formed in His image. There will come a time when all will be purged of these elements, those in the heavens, on the Earth, and under the Earth.

That is a brief synopsis of my understanding.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 22, 2018, 09:59:19 AM
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"In approximately 5 billion years, the sun will begin the helium-burning process, turning into a red giant star. When it expands, its outer layers will consume Mercury and Venus, and reach Earth" (Google).

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Do you think at some point time will also pass differently for everyone?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: yello62 on August 22, 2018, 10:52:13 AM
as i understand it, time was created for this eon. 
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 22, 2018, 11:45:27 AM
as i understand it, time was created for this eon.

You mean the last 14.5 billion years is one eon?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: yello62 on August 22, 2018, 02:18:29 PM
no, i mean the eon that includes the creation of mankind and ends with the return of Christ.  i may be wrong, as the reign of Christ is mentioned as a specific period of time, 1000 years, and have understood that as a separate age. 

as with most things of this nature, we will find out as we experience it.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 22, 2018, 03:19:37 PM
no, i mean the eon that includes the creation of mankind and ends with the return of Christ.  i may be wrong, as the reign of Christ is mentioned as a specific period of time, 1000 years, and have understood that as a separate age. 

as with most things of this nature, we will find out as we experience it.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The above verse is spurious. See: https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,6638.msg53239.html#msg53239 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,6638.msg53239.html#msg53239)

But your point is still valid. But I don't remember any verse that implies time ends. If anything there are many ages.

KJC = Eph 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Rotherham would be a better translation:

Eph 3:21  Unto him, be the glory, in the assembly, and in Christ Jesus—unto all the generations of the age of ages; Amen:—
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: yello62 on August 22, 2018, 03:58:45 PM
and it make sense that if there are many ages, they are makred off by something, whether it be called time or not.

there is a d.j. here i. chicago that uses the phrase “it’s great to be alive”.  when thinking about what The Father may have in store for us in the comings eons, whether they be time based, or not, makes me burst with that sentiment some times.  aren‘t we all blessed, and isn’t it great to be alive?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 22, 2018, 05:18:51 PM
and it make sense that if there are many ages, they are makred off by something, whether it be called time or not.

there is a d.j. here i. chicago that uses the phrase “it’s great to be alive”.  when thinking about what The Father may have in store for us in the comings eons, whether they be time based, or not, makes me burst with that sentiment some times.  aren‘t we all blessed, and isn’t it great to be alive?

For some it's great to be alive - But for me I'm more than ready for this to be over.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 22, 2018, 05:41:36 PM
Quote
For some it's great to be alive - But for me I'm more than ready for this to be over

Amen to that.

In this life,  time is a real kill joy for the most part, we are slaves to the consraints of it.. From the moment we're born we begin to die, second by second, time is running out, and yet, it still keeps going, never takes a break,  such a perplexing phenomenon. Most everything we do involves a race Against  it. I personally see time as being oppressive.

God is not bound by time he transends it

Psalm 90:4

   4    For A thousand years in your sight

are but as yesterday when it is past,

or as ca watch in the night.

His perspective on time is far different from ours.

Psalm 102:12

   12    But you, O Lord, are enthroned forever;
you ARE remembered throughout all generations.

The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

God is spirit in the realm of timelessness, rather than flesh in the sphere of time. God is even beyond eternity. And this is where I will be one day, free from the oppressive constraints of time, where time has no power.

My answer is yes, time will pass differently for everyone.


Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: yello62 on August 22, 2018, 06:01:58 PM
dennis, as paul said, the sufferings of this present evil age cannot be compared to the things that are to come.  trust me, i am ready for the next age.  my physical health has deteriorated terribly over the past five years.  i am isolated from most things because of my health.  i am in jeapordy of losing the job that pays for the insurance benefits that i desperately need.  i am in real jeapordy of losing my left foot to amputation.  i understand that the experience of this age is not ideal, trust me.  i am speaking in the sense that firstly, the suffering that we experience now will be offset by the joy we will experience when we are transformed, and secondly, and more importantly in my mind, we have the declared word that says that Christ will bring all things in heaven and earth into submission, death will be destroyed, and The Father will be all-in-all.  to have been given the breath of life, no matter our experience of it, is to be blessed, and this, it is great to be (alive).
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 22, 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Quote
Galatians 4:3, 9:  "Thus we also, when we were minors, were enslaved under the elements of the world."  "Yet now, knowing God, yet rather being known by God, how are you turning back again to the infirm and poor elements for which you want to slave again anew? And in

Colossians 2:8, 20: "Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ."   "If, then, you died together with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to decrees."

And Hebrews 5:12:  "For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment."

All of these elements have to be destroyed in order for all to be all in God. The Earth and the heavens do not have to be destroyed, as Wanda pointed out from Genesis 8:21. Fire is always used to purge, cleanse, each of us will be salted with fire (Mark 949), our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). We are told that we who believe are a New Creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). At present we, the believers, are being purged of these elements as we are being formed in His image. There will come a time when all will be purged of these elements, those in the heavens, on the Earth, and under the Earth. 

When God came as a fire upon Mount Sinai, it was said in Deut. 4:24, “The Lord your God is a consuming fire.” 

In Exodus 3  we see even though the bush was on fire it didn't literally burn.

. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

This consuming fire is the same fire, that will be used for the time when the new heavens, the new earth, and the new Jerusalem, will essentially consume or devour all that is old. Is this not the purpose of the lake of fire, which affects both heaven and earth?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: ML on August 23, 2018, 07:00:28 PM
Wanda, wouldn't that also apply to our fiery trials?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 23, 2018, 08:44:47 PM
Wanda, wouldn't that also apply to our fiery trials?

For sure. Fiery trials now, or judgement at the White Throne later.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 24, 2018, 10:09:40 AM
In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.

John, I read this verse and thought it makes sense with what you said:

Job 38:8-11: « 8 Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt’? »
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 24, 2018, 02:24:59 PM
In two Scriptures, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us that unless those end days were shortened, then no flesh would be saved alive.  But for sake of His Elect, those days will be shortened.

So there will be life, not total destruction.  God is the God of the living, not the dead, for all will live unto Him and all will be saved.

John, I read this verse and thought it makes sense with what you said:

Job 38:8-11: « 8 Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt’? »

The Book of Job is one of my favorites.  It teaches many fundamental truths about God.

It may well be the oldest book in the bible based upon the age of the Hebrew letters and words.
It is a Hebrew poem.

At the first we learn about the relation between God and evil.  The source of evil in a world created by a perfect God.

Later we learn about the resurrection of the dead when God speaks of this to Job.

And the beautiful language when God compares Himself and what He has done to what Job is.  Much instruction.

A delightful book of scripture.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 24, 2018, 03:21:50 PM
Job's children die and I have never thought of it as beautiful. But I see your point John.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Musterseed on August 24, 2018, 06:44:28 PM
The book of Job contains more rare words than any other book in the Bible. Just a little
tidbit from.

Readers Digest
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: ML on August 24, 2018, 06:50:32 PM
What would readers digest know about Scripture? 🙃
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 24, 2018, 07:22:52 PM
I don’t know if they would all support the digestion of the Word of God since « It will turn your stomach sour » (Revelation 10:9) 😅
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Musterseed on August 25, 2018, 01:36:24 PM
ML , the article I read was about the complexity of  the language. Not understanding it.
It was from 1994. I used to like reading RD before I knew about this Babylonian System of
corruption and the evil it spews.

John’s post inspired me to read Job last night for the first time. I will have to read it a few more
times or a hundred more times .

I know this.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God and in His hands is where I want to be.

Job 41 : 11
“Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under Heaven belongs to me”.

Please help me understand a little.
Job 38:2
The Lord Speaks
Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge ?

It seems to me that Job was a righteous man in his own mind and did not know he was a beast.
Just like all mankind.
He questions God.
Job 7:17
What is mankind that you make so much of them, that you give them so much attention 18
that you examine them every morning and test them every moment?

Job seems to ask questions that I Used to want to ask Him myself but  dare not because.
38:2 Who is this that obscures my plans words without knowledge?

And Who are you O man? God let’s me know who’s in charge and compels me to obey, He chastens.
When Our God speaks , I sit up straight and listen. I know what He is capable of, and I also know
He rescues. Thank God for His mercy and love.

I do not have much experience in reading scripture but I am thankful for the little I do have at this time. I have a long way to go but the journey is awesome and sometimes I feel like Job and just want to die and get it over with, but I don’t want to miss anything while I’m alive. Good or bad.

Question? Does Job represent the many? This is a challenging book. Any help would be appreciated. I love  the part, When the Lord Speaks, my heart melts.

In Christ , Pamela







Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 25, 2018, 02:38:22 PM
Satan suggested to God that the only reason Job served Him was because God blessed him. He said that Job would curse God if God took away His blessings. God gave Satan permission to test Job. He only placed one restriction on Satan. He was not allowed to harm Job himself (Job 1:9-12).

Pamela, this is what God has said about the kind of manJob was.

Job 2:

3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shun evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The Lord allowed Satan to do what he would with Job except take his life.
6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

And so the attack begins.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

Job's response here is one of pure reverence and faith to the Lord.

10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

There were many more terrible things that happened to Job, and as you continue to read the book, you'll see why so many of us love this book so much.

Happy reading


Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 25, 2018, 02:39:14 PM
The Book of Job answers the question of, why do bad things happen to good people?

Job was so good, even Satan could not find anything wrong with him.

God found something wrong.

Page after page, God compares Himself, God, to Job.

Job finally understood and got it and repented in dust and ashes.

God never did specifically answer Job's question as to what he did to deserve the bad things that happened to him.

Pamela, trust no man.  Only Jesus is our Teacher.  Only His Spirit will guide you to the truth if you come before Him with a clean and open heart and ask Him for understanding.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 25, 2018, 03:08:56 PM
Quote
Job was so good, even Satan could not find anything wrong with him.

God found something wrong.

Page after page, God compares Himself, God, to Job.

Job finally understood and got it and repented in dust and ashes.

Thank you John, that is the most profound message in the book of Job.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Musterseed on August 25, 2018, 05:41:14 PM
Thankyou Wanda for the scriptures , you are very helpful , always.

John,
Thank you also, I want to to read it again now , more slowly, paying attention to all the words.
I needed to hear that today John” trust no man,only Jesus is our teacher” .
Lately I’ve been a target . Strange things happening to me.
Thank you very much for your wise advise.

I love my BT family, thank God for all of you and God Bless You.❤️
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: ML on August 25, 2018, 07:27:45 PM
On Job, wanted to bring up something.

For example, in 2:10, it says he did not sin with his lips. Does it say he did not sin? No, it says he did not sin with his lips.

Significant?
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Prune Soleiado on August 25, 2018, 08:37:45 PM
Satan IS God’s creature, if he couldn’t find any sin about Job it makes sense since Human thoughts are demonic, and we know men consider themselves not being that evil.

Two scriptures are interesting in showing that Satan is a creation of God and that he’s not in control but God is:
1 Chronicles 21:1:  « Satan rose up against Israel and INCITED David to take a census of Israel. »
2 Samuel 24:1: « Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he INCITED David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah. »

Then if God considers Job have something evil in his heart to be cleansed: God finds it for sure!
And we can be sure, as human as we are, there’s something always to be cleansed in our hearts until we are in Jesus’ image!

Jeremiah 17:9: « The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.Who can understand it? »

Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 25, 2018, 11:40:15 PM
In Job 29 Job is boasting of many of his good works.

12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.

13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.

14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.

16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

Matthew 6:2

"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

Proverbs 27:2

Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.

In Job ch. 31 Job is pleading his case before his friends who had turned on him. He's laying before them the many things he can not be judged guilty against God or man for.

And so it is in Job 32:1 The three men stopped answeing Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Self-righteous people tend to justify themselves by blaming others, and it is a very difficult sin to get people to see and condemn in themselves.

In the New Testament, Jesus and the apostle Paul came down particularly hard on those who attempted to live in self-righteousness.

Romans 3:10
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.


Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Musterseed on August 26, 2018, 12:16:36 AM
Matt.6:2
So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites
do in the synagogues and in the streets so they be honoured by men. Truly I say to you,
they have their reward.

Didn’t Ray warn us that this was something the Pharisees did and would keep you out of the Kingdom of God. Doing good works to be see by men. Didn’t
People honour  Job and stand for him when he entered the town?

Who do the three friends represent in Job 32:1. The three men stopped answering Job, because he
was righteous in his own eyes.
How would they know he was righteous in his own eyes unless they were not. Are they the Elect?

I’m confused 🤷‍♀️ 🤔
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 26, 2018, 04:38:43 AM
Quote
Matt.6:2
So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites
do in the synagogues and in the streets so they be honoured by men. Truly I say to you,
they have their reward.

Didn’t Ray warn us that this was something the Pharisees did and would keep you out of the Kingdom of God. Doing good works to be see by men.

Is this not a warning to turn away from this sinful practice and repent?

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Quote
Didn’t
People honour  Job and stand for him when he entered the town?

Yes they did,  and no one could have given him more importance than Job gave himself. These are just a few scriptures from Job 29, but if you read the whole chapter you'll get a  clearer sense of it.

This is Job speaking of his high position of importance among the people.

They waited for me as for showers
    and drank in my words as the spring rain.
24 When I smiled at them, they scarcely believed it;
    the light of my face was precious to them.

If I were to say something so outrageous and egotistical, you guys here on this forum would have a thing or two to say about it,  don't you think?

Quote
Who do the three friends represent in Job 32:1
.

Job’s three friends, Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar,

In Job 2:11–13. they came to him when he was suffering. And they empathized with him: “they began to weep aloud, and they tore their robes and sprinkled dust on their heads” (verse 12).  Verse 13 states they were with him for seven days before they offered their advice.

While his friends were correct that sin had to be at the root of Job's problem, they portrayed God wrongly, by believing he was punishing Job for not doing enough good,.  On the other hand,  by Job justifying himself, he was condemning God as being unjust.

And with righteous indignation Job stood firm, insisting on his own innocence, not even allowing that he could be guilty of any sin or sins, which could be the cause of his afflictions; and the 3 men gave up because it had become pointless to reason with Job. None of the counsel helped because Job was righteous in his own eyes (Job 32:1).

Even before God, Job's attitude was one of self-righgeousness.

Job 7:20
If I have sinned, what have I done to you, you who see everything we do? Why have you made me your target? Have I become a burden to you?

 
Quote
The three men stopped answering Job, because he
was righteous in his own eyes.
How would they know he was righteous in his own eyes unless they were not. Are they the Elect?

Even though I'm striving to be, I am not  a righteous person, but if you stood before me and  proclaimed  you were blameless,  and sinless before God, I would consider you to have a self-rightgeous attitude, and I'd be right.

Ecclesiastes 7:20

Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Even though Job was “perfect and upright” in how he observed the strict letter of God’s law, he was weak in the spirit of the law. He was full of vanity and pride.

And as Michelle so rightly pointed out...

"Then if God considers Job have something evil in his heart to be cleansed: God finds it for sure!
And we can be sure, as human as we are, there’s something always to be cleansed in our hearts until we are in Jesus’ image!"

Because of this, God allowed him to endure a horrendous period of trial and test so he could clearly see himself in relation to God.

Some lessons are hard learned, as many of us can attest to.

Bad things do happen to good people that are not yet sinless.

But in the end Job repented,  and God was rightly Glorified ☺


Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: indianabob on August 26, 2018, 08:48:09 AM
Hi Wanda,

What you just wrote was very helpful to me.
Thanks for sharing those thoughts and expanding my understanding of my own limitations.
As well as we may do in this life there will still be space for correction when we meet our Lord.
Indiana Bob
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Heidi on August 28, 2018, 10:40:29 PM
Wanda, I also want to say thank you, your post helped me too.  It hurts to admit to being self-righteous as I am also guilty like Job in certain thoughts and behaviors.  I thank God that He is burning it out of my life!
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Wanda on August 29, 2018, 07:58:02 PM
Pamela, Heidi and Bob,  It's always my pleasure to add to discussions when I can.  I've certainly been greatly enriched by many of your comments, it's the reason our great Lord, continues to bless and protect our little sanctuary, in this raging sea of life.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: ML on August 29, 2018, 08:24:15 PM
it's the reason our great Lord, continues to bless and protect our little sanctuary, in this raging sea of life.
Mark 4
39And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

Matthew 14
26And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

I find great peace in that, don't know why.
Title: Re: New Heavens and New Earth
Post by: Jennalyce on November 06, 2018, 11:14:56 AM
It will be as "Poppa" (God) has planned and we don't have to worry about it.