bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Carlos31 on December 13, 2008, 12:41:28 PM
-
I was reading a scripture, I believe John 3:5, it says to be reborn out of water AND Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God.
born out of water? I believe water represents spirit, but there is the word "AND".
whats the meaning of this?
-
well, i was reading the greek and the meaning of AND could also be therefore.
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [therefore the ] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
what do you all think
-
I agree. One must be born out of spiritual water before entering into the kingdom.
-
Hey, that is good Carlos. I like the way that reads, it makes sense I had never given that much thought!
Kathy :)
-
well, i was reading the greek and the meaning of AND could also be therefore.
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [therefore the ] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
what do you all think
Carlos,
The greek word for 'and' is kai (Gk #2532) which from multiple scriptures is always also or with...not therefore.
Matt. 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and [Gk kai] his mother by night, and departed into Egypt
'He took the young child "therefore' his mother..." ???
Matt. 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and [Gk. kai] his mother, and came into the land of Israel
Again, "the young child 'therefore' his mother..." Doesn't really go together, you know? ;)
Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Excerpt from 'How Hard is Getting Saved' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html):
So now we’ve got to:
1. Confess with your mouth
2. and believe in our heart that He raised Jesus from the dead
3. and we know that we’ve got to be reconciled to God
4. and take on the quality of Christ’s life
5. and we’ve got to walk through the door
6. and be baptized
7. and we’ve got to listen to Ray’s foolishness of preaching
8. and we’ve got to call upon the name of the Lord….etc. etc. etc.
And now you’ll be saved? You haven’t even started!
Well, WHAT IS ALL THIS STUFF? WHAT IS IT? Why is all this stuff in the Bible? How do you do all this stuff?
There’s more, I could go on for days, there’s more and more and more…. and THEN you shall be saved!
If you’ve got to do all that then why does it say, “Whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”? Because that’s all you have to do!
But what about all the rest??? It’s ALL ONE!
If you do any one of these in the spirit, you will be saved. Any one of them. They’re all the same! Each one comes from a little different perspective, but they’re all the same. You need to learn the principal; you need wisdom to know what the word of God is all about.
Hope this helps,
Marques
-
hey marques, well you know in hebrew and greek, some words are used differently, just like in English.
in those examples you showed, the word and is correct.
KAI in greek does mean, 'and', and 'therefore'
here is the definition of KAI
"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, THEREFORE, when, yea, yet."
so in conclusion, it depends HOW YOU USE IT.
God be with you all.
-
did Ray wrote about "how hard is it to be saved"??
i was thinking it was the same, as he states but i was not sure.
if we are baptize, circumcised in the heart, etc, its all the same.
-
the word kai also means "or"
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [or] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
or as in, water or spirit, meaning the SAME THING.
water does not make you save, it is foolish carnal teaching.
-
This is why we cannot take the scriptures for granted, they have been contaminated by theologians, in this case defending physical water baptism, if we search in the deep ocean, we shall find the valuable pearls
-
hey marques, well you know in hebrew and greek, some words are used differently, just like in English.
in those examples you showed, the word and is correct.
KAI in greek does mean, 'and', and 'therefore'
here is the definition of KAI
"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, THEREFORE, when, yea, yet."
so in conclusion, it depends HOW YOU USE IT.
God be with you all.
Carlos,
I see what you are saying but besides John 3:5, where else is 'kai' used as therefore? Usually when one uses 'therefore' the 2nd object is the result of the action of the 1st object.
Such as: I think THEREFORE I am...the 'I am' is only because of 'I think'...this is just an example.
So how does being born of water then make one born of spirit? Being born of water is spirit as is being born of spirit. The result of being born in water is not being born in spirit...they both must happen and are not dependent with on each other. Does that make sense or am I not explaining myself well?
I'm not trying to argue just trying to understand your point. Thanks
Marques
-
well water does not make one spiritual, that's why that verse CANNOT say "water AND spirit" that is spiritually not correct.
-
therefore: for that reason or cause; consequently or hence
-
"Usually when one uses 'therefore' the 2nd object is the result of the action of the 1st object."
well perhaps it is that the OLD things are shadow of the new things.
I don't know which translation is better. but it cannot be the word AND.
-
I was reading a scripture, I believe John 3:5, it says to be reborn out of water AND Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God.
born out of water? I believe water represents spirit, but there is the word "AND".
whats the meaning of this?
/quote]
Could it be that born of water could mean, the natural birth, when the mother is ready to give
birth, the water breaks, It looks like that is what Nicodemus thought in v.3.
and Jesus said in v.6 that which is born of flesh is flesh.
Earl
-
Hi Earl,
I think you might be right. Nicobemus came to Jesus and this is what He said to him.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus was saying about being "born" and he questioned Jesus about this.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nicodemus was thinking about being physically born, but Jesus was talking about spiritually.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
All translations have "and," but I think the point Jesus was making was that the first time one is physically born (which Nicodemus was thinking of) was in the womb - in water. The next verse indicates that is what Jesus is speaking of the two different ways that someone is born.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (water); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Then Jesus goes on to say one "must be born again" or a second time spiritually, as the first was through water or physically.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
This was what the discussion between Nicodemus and Christ was all about the two ways to be born.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Kat & Earl,
I think you are right, that is probably the meaning of that. After all you must be born before you can be "reborn". Makes perfect sense to me!
Kathy :)
-
Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism):
Dear Francis:
Thank you for your email and comments.
So you believe that the PHYSICAL foreskins no longer apply to we Believers of the Nations, but that the PHYSICAL water of baptism most certainly does still apply. They are one and the same, Francis. Physically cutting off the foreskin and physically being placed under water are PHYSICAL RITUALS. They accomplish NOTHING with the spirit. Until Christ comes into our lives we SHOULD be physically circumcised, physically baptized, and physically give our tithes of farm produce to the Levites, but when the REALITY [Christ] of all of those types and shadows COMES, we are no longer under a tutor or schoolmaster, but we are by faith to go on to maturity (Gal. 3).
John is not speaking of PHYSICAL water and PHYSICAL blood in I John 5:6 & 8. Two things came out of Jesus' PHYSICAL BODY when they pierced Him: PHYSICAL water and PHYSICAL blood (John 19:34). These two things from then on become SYMBOLS of something SPIRITUAL that takes place in us by these two things. Being PHYSICALLY baptizes in PHYSICAL water will not make ANYONE spiritual. Likewise partaking of the Lord's Supper with PHYSICAL wine symbolizing Christ's shed blood will not make ANYONE spiritual. Jesus Christ is the reality of both THE WATER and THE BLOOD.
Throughout the New Testament the apostles teach us concerning the "water and the blood." Here is what the water and the blood symbolize and what they do FOR US:
"...the WASHING [spiritual water] OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed [poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5b-6).
"That He might sanctify and cleanse it [the church, ver. 25] with the washing of water BY THE WORD" (Eph. 5:36).
Can we not see that the water IS THE WORD of God? Do we get SPIRITUAL clean by being baptized in PHYSICAL WATER? What have we just read? "...washing of water BY THE WORD." Here's a second witness:
"Now ye are clean [washed clean] through the WORD which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).
And since these two words "water and blood" are used symbolically to represent spiritual realities, we can even be washed clean in "the blood":
"...and WASHED us from our sins in His own BLOOD" (Rev. 1:5b).
Remember that Jesus said,
"...the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life" (John 6:63)
Therefore:
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born OF WATER [what kind of water? physical water?] and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
Is Jesus speaking of PHYSICAL WATER and PHYSICAL BAPTISM? Hardly. Look at the next chapter:
"...and He [Christ] would have given you LIVING WATER" (John 4:10).
"Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: but whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst: but the water that I shall give shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting LIFE" (Ver. 14)
Water of LIFE, LIVING waters:
"He that believes on Me, as the SCRIPTURE has said [Scripture is God's word, and we are washed with with water of God's WORD], out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATERS" (John 7:38).
After being baptized by water, the disciples of Jesus were still unconverted. Why even Peter was unconverted (Luke 22:32). Physical water did them little good SPIRITUALLY. However, Jesus promised that they would be baptized with something else:
"For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT not many days hence" (Acts 1:5).
Baptism is of the heart and spirit just as circumcision. If we can't comprehend this spiritual truth, then we are missing the whole point of these types and shadows of which Jesus Christ is the only reality.
God be with you,
Ray
Another email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3582.0):
Dear Ray,
Question: John 3:5 records Jesus saying, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
What is this water being spoken of? You'd surprise me if you answered 'physical baptism', but does physical baptism have any symbolic relationship with this water? Does John 13:10 give a clue when Jesus says to Peter regarding foot-washing, "He who is bathed ['born of water'?] needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean"?
Thanks for your web site. It has and continues to be a blessing.
-Don
Dear Don:
I answer this in my upcoming paper: HELL Part D. I could answer it now, and do it very simply, but then maybe you wouldn't read my Hell Part D as is it will be very long paper.
God be with you,
Ray
And here is a portion from the Hell Part D that Ray covers (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):
SANCTIFICATION: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth... That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish" (John 17:17 & Eph. 5:26-27). Strong's #37, hagiazo, "to make holy, purify, consecrate, venerate, hallow, be holy, sanctify." Need I point out once more the enormous change that must be made in us. We are spiritually dirty and we need to be changed to something that is pure and holy. This we are told is accomplished by the Christ "washing us from our sins in His own blood" (Rev. 1:5), and "with the washing of water by the word." We are sanctified (set apart as something pure and holy) through the Truth, which is the Word of God, which Word is Jesus Christ and His blood.
John 6:63 ...the words that I [Christ] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Eph 5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you
And here is where Ray explains being 'born of the spirit'
Excerpt from same LOF paper (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):
REBIRTH/BORN AGAIN: "...that which is conceived [Gk: gennao] in her is of the Holy Spirit... Now when Jesus was born [Gk: gennao] in Bethlehem..." (Matt. 1:20 & 2:1). Notice that words "conceived" and "born" are both translated from the same one Greek word gennao. So what are we to do with this verse: "Except a man be born [Gk: gennao] again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Should this verse read: "born again," or "begotten anew?" I once believed this verse should be "begotten" rather than "born," seeing that no one is literally "born" again in this life, but I now believe that context forbids this translation. But how can Believers be literally born again in this life based on the context of Jesus' statement:
"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.
And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).
This is why that the Gk word 'kai' means 'AND' and not 'therefore'. One must be 'born of the water' (sanctification by His Word) AND 'born of the spirit' (born of the spirit is SPIRIT).
Also Carlos, did you ever find any scriptures where 'kai' was used as 'therefore' instead of 'and'?
To all: We should not jump on the bandwagon for any new belief or thought just because it 'sounds good'. It's not easy of course, but we must rely on the Word of God for our foundation and not thoughts or beliefs that 'tickle our ears'.
Thanks,
Marques
-
Hi Marques,
Thanks for digging up those different pieces of Ray's material, I got it :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Ok, Marques, looks like I need to go back and read that a little closer! :D
Kathy :)
-
No problem Kat & Kathy...only by the grace of God do I find these scriptures and excerpts of Ray's teachings. :)
I just thought of something as well. I remember an old member making a sarcastic remark to me about 'parroting' what Ray says. Threads and subjects like these are EXACTLY WHY we refer to Ray's teachings. It's not about following some man called Ray Smith; it's about relying on a teacher (anyone want to challenge Ray NOT being a teacher?) that God has blessed us with and his teachings.
So, anyone who ever wonders why Kat, Rene, I, etc. always 'just post something from Ray' instead of trying to explain ourselves...this is why. Though we do express our thoughts, Ray's a teacher with the Word of God as his foundation and by the grace of God is how we all came to this forum. We're just having the teacher 'teach'. :)
Thanks,
Marques
-
Yes.
"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [kai means "and", "or", "therefore"] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
since Jesus thought that physical water does not make you reborn, it CANNOT BE water "AND" spirit.
this water is THAT SAME SPIRIT. The water represents or symbolizes spirit. thats what i was trying to say in my first posts.
You are not born out of water, but out of spirit? YES, or spiritual water, whatever you prefer.
water gives life to the flesh, spiritual water, the spirit of God, gives life to the spirit.
-
water represents the word of GOD.
John 6:63 ...the words that I [Christ] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
-
Yes.
"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [kai means "and", "or", "therefore"] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
since Jesus thought that physical water does not make you reborn, it CANNOT BE water "AND" spirit.
this water is THAT SAME SPIRIT. The water represents or symbolizes spirit. thats what i was trying to say in my first posts.
You are not born out of water, but out of spirit? YES, or spiritual water, whatever you prefer.
water gives life to the flesh, spiritual water, the spirit of God, gives life to the spirit.
water represents the word of GOD.
John 6:63 ...the words that I [Christ] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Carlos, give it up...and you still have not answered the request for 2 or more scriptural witnesses of the Greek word 'kai' meaning therefore.
Christ says one must be born of water (sanctified in His Word) AND born of spirit (born of the spirit IS SPIRIT). Ray teaches the same...if you disagree, please email Ray. Your stubbornness to the truth is only a detriment to your spiritual growth. This was definitely NOT what you stated in the beginning.
Excerpt from 'What is the Gospel of the Kingdom' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html):
Be humble, be teachable, read it, see it, believe it, do it.
I don’t assume that everything I teach is automatically perfect. Certain things I know, I know when I’m on safe ground, I know. I mean I’ve been around the block a few times and I’ve repented before God. I understand spiritual principles, but I don’t claim to know it all. But when you live by the Word, then you understand the doctrine.
Thanks,
Marques
-
Carlos and Kat.
I distinctly remember Ray saying that none of us are currently saved but all of us are in the process of being saved. Real salvation comes at the 1st or 2nd resurrection. You comments will be greatly appreciated.
Phil3:10
-
Marques,
You Hit the nail right on the head. Thanks for your good research into Ray's teachings.
Phil3:10
-
Hi Phil3:10,
I distinctly remember Ray saying that none of us are currently saved but all of us are in the process of being saved. Real salvation comes at the 1st or 2nd resurrection.
You are right about that. Here is an email that explans this.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm -------------------------------------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Margaret:
"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question! Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question? If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.
Here is what we do read regarding salvation:
"might save" "to save" "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.
And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.
Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.
If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.
This verse says it all:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13).
If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?" See the contradiction?
Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?
Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives? I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.
God has not, however, left us without assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).
God be with you,
Ray
-
Hi Marques, Kat, Carlos31, Phil3:10, Kathy,
Amazing what we see when we read The Scriptures; Paul said: (A little leaven leavens the whole lump)
These Scriptures speak i believe directly of those that have another gospel which is no Gospel (Good News).
The subjects being addressed physically (circumcision and fornication) Spiritually how devious and insidious
a little bit of wrong information can be, if allowed to survive it will corrupt everything it touches.
Kat i was reading that very email answer from Ray to Margaret this morning, i got it again.
Galations 5: 7-10
7-You did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth?
8-This persuasion comes not of him that calls you.
9-A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
10-I have confidence in you through the Lord, that you will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he be.
11-And I, brothers, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offense of the cross ceased.
12-I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13-For, brothers, you have been called to liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14-For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
1Corinthians 5: 1-8
1-It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2-And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3-For I truly, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that has so done this deed,
4-In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5-To deliver such an one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6-Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7-Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8-Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
george. :)
-
When I think of this teaching of Christ about being born of water and of spirit, the teaching of Paul comes to mind. 1 Corinthians 15:45... first comes the physical and then the spiritual. Born of water always seemed to me to be our physical birth (first the physical/carnal) and born of spirit our spiritual "rebirth" (then the spiritual).
Jesus seems to confirm this is speaking of physical and then spiritual in the next verse in John... "John 3:6 That which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 fleshG4561 isG2076 flesh;G4561 andG2532 that which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 SpiritG4151 isG2076 spirit.G4151"
If im not mistaken, this principle of physical then spiritual is one of Ray's 12 very important principles for understanding the scriptures.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
I like to refer back to these 12 truths pretty regularly as they are so helpful.
Hope everyones week starts well.
Mike
-
I was reading a scripture, I believe John 3:5, it says to be reborn out of water AND Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God.
born out of water? I believe water represents spirit, but there is the word "AND".
whats the meaning of this?
greetings:
The blast is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit."
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
for now i see the water= word
i dont think i was born of spirit till many yrs after hearing the word, oh i had faith, but in Gods time ""wind"" i was born of the spirit.
peace
chuckt
-
When I think of this teaching of Christ about being born of water and of spirit, the teaching of Paul comes to mind. 1 Corinthians 15:45... first comes the physical and then the spiritual. Born of water always seemed to me to be our physical birth (first the physical/carnal) and born of spirit our spiritual "rebirth" (then the spiritual).
Jesus seems to confirm this is speaking of physical and then spiritual in the next verse in John... "John 3:6 That which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 fleshG4561 isG2076 flesh;G4561 andG2532 that which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 SpiritG4151 isG2076 spirit.G4151"
If im not mistaken, this principle of physical then spiritual is one of Ray's 12 very important principles for understanding the scriptures.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
I like to refer back to these 12 truths pretty regularly as they are so helpful.
Hope everyones week starts well.
Mike
Hello Mike,
You are correct in stating how the physical is first and then the spiritual. However, being 'born of water' are 'words of spirit' and is not referring to being born in a womb or being physically baptized.
As you referenced the 12 spiritual truths to understanding His Word, recall the principle of comparing spiritual with spiritual to come to a spiritual match:
From email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism):
Throughout the New Testament the apostles teach us concerning the "water and the blood." Here is what the water and the blood symbolize and what they do FOR US:
"...the WASHING [spiritual water] OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed [poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5b-6).
"That He might sanctify and cleanse it [the church, ver. 25] with the washing of water BY THE WORD" (Eph. 5:36).
Can we not see that the water IS THE WORD of God? Do we get SPIRITUAL clean by being baptized in PHYSICAL WATER? What have we just read? "...washing of water BY THE WORD." Here's a second witness:
"Now ye are clean [washed clean] through the WORD which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).
Being born of water represents being sanctified by His Word. For those who believe that when Christ stated 'born of water' he was referring to the physical and then referenced the spiritual when he stated 'and of spirit' is equivalent to Christ explaining a parable which He never did with the multitude or even Nicodemus who He was speaking with in John 3.
We are currently being (an on-going process) sanctified by His Word in this present age. But no one is born of the spirit in this age...that happens at the resurrection:
Excerpt from LOF 16 D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):
"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.
And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).
Christ says one must be both 'born of water' (sanctified by His Word) and 'born of spirit' (born anew with spiritual bodies at resurrection) to enter the Kingdom. Do we think we do not have to be sanctified by His Word and only born from the womb? Do we think we can be sanctified by the Word and not born anew in the spirit? Do you see why BOTH are necessary? How can we put on incorruption (born anew in spirit) if we not been sanctified (born of water) which is to make pure and holy?
Does anyone have any spiritual witnesses that born of water is born of the womb...that Christ was being literal when he stated this...that this was one instance where Christ was NOT speaking a parable? 'Born of water' is spiritual as is 'Born of spirit'...Ray explains this clearly.
Alright, I need to take a breath... :D :D
Marques
-
Kat, Marques, and all,
Thanks so very much for your input. I so agree that we are not in any way spiritual. All mankind is but flesh and can only obey GOD as HE directs our life in HIS way and in HIS time frame. I think this is one of the major faults of the church system. They attempt to be spiritual not realizing the impossibility of being spiritual in this fleshly body. GOD elects, HE calls, HE chooses and HE saves. AL glory and praise to HIM who is all in all.
Phil3:10
-
Thanks Marques for your thorough response. I hope you got your breath back without too much trouble. :)
-
Thanks Marques for your thorough response. I hope you got your breath back without too much trouble. :)
LOL :D
Yea, I need to learn to take a 'chill-pill' sometimes... :D
Marques
-
Marques,
You hit the nail on the head with that one, glad it didn't nick your finger. Those chill pills work too,
this is hard work just staying on track, i am still looking for the spiritual witness for born of the womb (water).
It is not there because you already stated what the Scriptures Say re: that subject.
george. ;D
Hello Mike,
You are correct in stating how the physical is first and then the spiritual. However, being 'born of water' are 'words of spirit' and is not referring to being born in a womb or being physically baptized.
As you referenced the 12 spiritual truths to understanding His Word, recall the principle of comparing spiritual with spiritual to come to a spiritual match:
From email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism):
Throughout the New Testament the apostles teach us concerning the "water and the blood." Here is what the water and the blood symbolize and what they do FOR US:
"...the WASHING [spiritual water] OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed [poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5b-6).
"That He might sanctify and cleanse it [the church, ver. 25] with the washing of water BY THE WORD" (Eph. 5:36).
Can we not see that the water IS THE WORD of God? Do we get SPIRITUAL clean by being baptized in PHYSICAL WATER? What have we just read? "...washing of water BY THE WORD." Here's a second witness:
"Now ye are clean [washed clean] through the WORD which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).
Being born of water represents being sanctified by His Word. For those who believe that when Christ stated 'born of water' he was referring to the physical and then referenced the spiritual when he stated 'and of spirit' is equivalent to Christ explaining a parable which He never did with the multitude or even Nicodemus who He was speaking with in John 3.
We are currently being (an on-going process) sanctified by His Word in this present age. But no one is born of the spirit in this age...that happens at the resurrection:
Excerpt from LOF 16 D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):
"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.
And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).
Christ says one must be both 'born of water' (sanctified by His Word) and 'born of spirit' (born anew with spiritual bodies at resurrection) to enter the Kingdom. Do we think we do not have to be sanctified by His Word and only born from the womb? Do we think we can be sanctified by the Word and not born anew in the spirit? Do you see why BOTH are necessary? How can we put on incorruption (born anew in spirit) if we not been sanctified (born of water) which is to make pure and holy?
Does anyone have any spiritual witnesses that born of water is born of the womb...that Christ was being literal when he stated this...that this was one instance where Christ was NOT speaking a parable? 'Born of water' is spiritual as is 'Born of spirit'...Ray explains this clearly.
Alright, I need to take a breath... :D :D
Marques