Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Would you like vanilla or chocolate ice cream? Make your choice. Not a free choice, but a choice.
Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!
Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.
God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.
Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.
God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...
Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.
- Daywalker.
Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!
Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.
God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.
Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.
God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...
Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.
- Daywalker.
Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!
Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.
God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.
Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.
God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...
Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.
- Daywalker.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predestinate
pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate /v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt] Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.
–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.
From this topic thread: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9273.msg77952.html#msg77952
Ray's words:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---------------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOV
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Hi Gary,
I think you get it on this subject:
(YLT)
Psa 37:23 From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Psa 37:24 When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand.
Psa 37:25 Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.
Psa 37:26 All the day he is gracious and lending, And his seed is for a blessing.
Psa 37:27 Turn aside from evil, and do good, and dwell to the age.
Psa 37:28 For Jehovah is loving judgment, And He doth not forsake His saintly ones, To the age they have been kept, And the seed of the wicked is cut off.
george.
What 'pre-approved' sounds like to me is God approves of what we decide to do. As 'pre-destinates' would mean God's plan is already worked out, so we are already predestinated in all that will happen.
Gary you do seems to be going to the right direction with this now
mercy, peace and love
Kat
VVVVVV
I'm in an understanding with those who are a bit confused by the matter. And for those that are quick to catch on and reconcile to Ray's teachings, you've been blessed. But it's a deep subject, at least to me, and doesn't easily reconcile itself to that which Ray teaches because the reconciling means giving up an idol. But then even Ray understands it's difficult to give up a long welcomed "idol" that has much history in anyones life. The head of this idol is so strong, at least to me, and puts up a tremendous fight before admitting defeat. Hence, the personal spiritual battle and overcoming. And it's an overwhelming battle. I've had, as we all have, events happen in our lives that make absolutely no sense to us in any way and doesn't appear even after many glances that the event(s) serve any good purpose. So it's easy to just say "well, God did it", but without a proper understanding and belief which it appears only God can grant, they (the purposes of events) remain in a nebulous status.
Gary
I cant control my taste buds. Its the way I was made. I can choose apple or cherry because I like both, but if I don't like either then I cant control that. Where is choice if we are made that way?
Of course we have a will, it's just that it isn't free to operate WITHOUT A CAUSE.
So God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?
DaywalkerSo God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?
Hey Kenny,
You make choices based on the circumstances that you put into, and there are many things that can affect the choices you make. Your parents and how you were raised have a huge impact on who you are today, right? If you were raised by a Church-going family, you'd have a very different view on life and humanity, then say, someone who was raised be Atheists. Your family and friends likewise have a huge impact on your life. Also, the city/state/country you are raised in, and the schools that you attend, and the many trials that you endure...
I could go on and on about all the different variables that affect you and cause you to make the choices that you make. This is why you don't have a "free" will, because you don't make choices "freely", there's always a reason [i.e. cause].
Since GOD is the Creator of everything, He is also the Creator of all the different variables that cause the circumstances to come about that cause you to make the choices you make. Thus, God is ultimately the cause of everything. But that doesn't mean that He directly makes humans do anything. He can, and sometimes He does:
- God made a giant fish swallow Jonah and take him to Nenevah
- The Holy Spirit made Mary become pregnant with Jesus
- Jesus made Saul repent and become the Apostle Paul
You always have a choice. You always have a will. But your choices and your will is far from being "free".
Don't believe me? Try to STOP Sinning. ;)
God Speed, my friend,
- Daywalker.
Hi Daywalker. To answer, Roy asked about “preordained”. Your reply of the definition of “preordained” included “foreordain”. I included Ray’s writing of “predestinated”, which also links to “foreordain”.
“foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future.”
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
/v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/ Show Spelled pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt] Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.
–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.
Ray: “They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.”
So, if God is “determining” events of the future then does it (?) go to say that the “choices” we make are also “pre-determined” by God? If so, then where does that leave the “choice”? A clear matter?, not necessarily. But the “choice” appears to clearly rule out “free-will”.
Honestly, and again, it’s a difficult subject for me and apparently others which is why I stated to those that readily understand they are blessed indeed. Even though a dictionary can define the words, only God grants the wisdom to understand. And again for those who understand they have been truly blessed. But for those of us, I’m speaking mainly to myself, that don’t quite yet “get it” in cement fashion this mountain of challenge continues to loom, a sure witness that God is in control even of understanding.
That’s all I was attempting. Not picking. Just hoping to help for Roy or anyone else who may yet to understand. But as far as quoting Ray, well, that happens all day long here on this forum as I’m sure many other events not on this forum.
Gary
This is the Great Enigma of Life. The fact that we do things against our will every day is proof positive that our wills are not "free". But we naturally are prideful, self-righteous creatures, who want to believe that we are in control, even when it's obvious that we are not. And yes God created us this way. And only God can open a person's eyes so that they can SEE
Hey Gary,
The trick is to separate free will from making choices.
You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.
God Bless You, My Friend,
- Daywalker.
Hey Gary,
The trick is to separate free will from making choices.
You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.
God Bless You, My Friend,
- Daywalker.
Thanks Daywalker. Agreed, that's the trick. Unfortunately I'm an old dog. ;)
As for "causes" I understand, at least that part, of Ray's teachings. All effects have their causes. Phenomenal chain reaction. However when presented with a choice to do right or wrong and one chooses what turns out to be a wrong choice with disastrous results some wish to believe and reason backwards that God caused the wrong choice. I don't believe that to be true. Now I don't anyway. Indirectly perhaps but certainly not directly. Your quoting of Paul would exclude that reasoning as well. And that's the crux of where understanding and error reasoning cross and it's a long difficult process to understand, at least for me. The head of the idol wails against reason. And i'm not sure I'm there yet.
Gary
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?is not the truth, I know that God led me to what was right in His sight.
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
I know you said you no longer believe that. I just wanted to emphasize one thing. One cannot make a wrong choice. Whatever choice you made/make is the will of God and therefore the right choice regardless of the outcome.
I have experienced this very scenario first hand and while I sometimes question my decision because of the outcome not appearing to be rosy, I know that I prayed hard for guidance when making the decision and unless Luke 11Quote11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?is not the truth, I know that God led me to what was right in His sight.
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
Eileen