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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lareli on April 18, 2014, 12:25:53 PM
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Why did satan ask Jesus this when Jesus was in the desert for 40 days? What was the point? Did he really not know and what would he do if he had got an answer from Jesus? Again, while on the cross a Pharisee shouted 'if you are the son of God come down from there and we'll believe..' Someone pointed out to me that this was the same words used by satan in the desert, 'if you are the son of God'.. Do such and such. Implying that this was satan tempting Jesus one last time before He died on the cross.. Any thoughts on that? Why was satan trying to get Jesus to prove His identity to him?
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Hello largeli,
I would say that Satan tempted Jesus by taunting Him. Of course he knew Jesus was the Son of God. Even lesser evil spirits recognized Him as such. I think Satan was targeting a weak spot in all humans: pride.
Probably many of us were taunted by peers inciting us to drink, smoke, or try whatever drug. "If you're a man, you will drink this beer in one gulp!"
I imagine Satan's intent was "Don't just TELL me you are the Son of God! SHOW ME!"
This is just my opinion. I might be wrong.
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Satan is the the same cunning/crafty creature that seduced Eve and he was then trying to work his cleverness on Jesus, who was then human. So Satan hoped Jesus was subject to the same pulls of the flesh, like theophilus was saying Satan was taunting His pride... all Satan had to do was get Him to sin just once and He would no longer meet the requirements of a perfect Savior. Satan knew full well who he was dealing with, just hoped he could sabotage Him with a weakness of the flesh, but he found out that doesn't work on God in the flesh.
The man on the cross beside Jesus simply did not know for sure if Jesus was the Son of God, but thought it was worth a try, that's why he said "if you are," yet still another taunt.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ah that makes sense.. He was tempting Jesus to act out of pride.
Hey I have another question but don't want to start another thread..
Why is there so much instruction in scriptures about how to conduct ourselves in the church if we aren't supposed to be involved with the churches? Example, submitting to elders, leaders in church, instructions for deacons and all that.. If the church was going to be taken over by imposters and wolves in sheeps clothing soon after these instructions were written then what does it profit us now to have these instructions?
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Hi largely,
Thinking about the early church, the Apostles started churches from all the converts they were getting, and then started the process of organizing/instructing them.
Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
Acts 2:47 The believers praised God and were respected by all the people. More and more people were being saved every day, and the Lord was adding them to their group.
Acts 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
But when you think about the parable of the sower and the seed... of all those believing/converts that were being taught by the Apostles probably only a 'few' would remain 'faithful' to these teachings. So how long did the early true believers remain, in those organized churches started by the Apostles? Not long I would think, the very first generation would have left (came out of her) and began meeting in private homes, but they still would refer to themselves as "the church of God." And even those were persecuted and scattered.
Acts 11:19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
It just seems that people cannot group together without the human nature causing a host of problems, so God separated His people even at the very beginning. But then there also had to be the start of "Babylon the Great," and they can boost that their origins is from the very Apostles themselves. So the Great false church gets it start and separates from Judaism at the very same as the Apostles are trying to organize the early believers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_of_early_Christianity_and_Judaism -----
Most historians agree that Jesus or his followers established a new Jewish sect, one that attracted both Jewish and Gentile converts. Historians continue to debate the precise moment when Christianity established itself as a new religion, apart and distinct from Judaism. Some scholars view Christians as much as Pharisees as being competing movements within Judaism that decisively broke only after the Bar Kokhba's revolt, when the successors of the Pharisees claimed hegemony (domination) over all Judaism, and – at least from the Jewish perspective – Christianity emerged as a new religion. Some Christians were still part of the Jewish community up until the time of the Bar Kochba revolt in the 130s.
According to historian Shaye J. D. Cohen,
The separation of Christianity from Judaism was a process, not an event. The essential part of this process was that the church was becoming more and more gentile, and less and less Jewish, but the separation manifested itself in different ways in each local community where Jews and Christians dwelt together. In some places, the Jews expelled the Christians; in other, the Christians left of their own accord.
According to Cohen, this process ended in 70 CE, after the great revolt, when various Jewish sects disappeared and Pharisaic Judaism evolved into Rabbinic Judaism, and Christianity emerged as a distinct religion.
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html -------------------------------------------
THE CHURCH OF GOD IN PRIVATE HOUSES
There was a transition period where the disciples still went up to the temple, but God’s intimate dealings would now be found in more humble surroundings. When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the first Saints of Jesus, it was not in a synagogue, but in a house:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all THE HOUSE where they were sitting" (Acts 2:1-2).
Church services were held in houses:
"Likewise greet the church that is in their house" (Rom. 16:5).
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house" (I Cor. 16:19).
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house� (Col., 4:15).
"Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, and to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in your house" (Philemon 1-2).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Largelli:
As concerning Matthew 4:3, I have found 2 versions (The Message and The Common English) which translate the word "If" as "Since".
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If the church was going to be taken over by imposters and wolves in sheeps clothing soon after these instructions were written then what does it profit us now to have these instructions?
Tks Kat for clarifying that the biblical church instructions were only for those called into Christianity. I've often wondered how church discipline worked in the spiritual (episunagoge) church of God.
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Religiously, Loretta. :D
Like, when we have a 'turning one over to satan' ceremony, we wear special robes. Some prefer blue with a green trim, but I like red and black because it's more somber...and I look better in those colors. There are differences over what incantation to use. One faction prefers the Eastminster Professional, whereas I pretty much lean towards the Ordinary Cataclysm. ;D
No...I just let them go. That's Spiritual.
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Hi folks,
It may be helpful to realize that several years of operation of the church at Jerusalem passed by before the apostle Saul/Paul came on the scene.
During the interim the 12 apostles taught little or nothing about "Paul's Christianity". The Jews in Jerusalem and in their synagogues were teaching mainly that the "Messiah" had come and Jesus was he. We don't see much of anything from Peter, James etc about the "body of Christ" or Christ in us. The Jews knew that they were God's chosen people and destined to be a holy priesthood for God to the world.
So then what was it that the "believing Jews" of those first few years believed?
Weren't they still going to Temple and requiring circumcision and observances of the law? Requirements that Paul was teaching were no longer necessary for Gentiles under the New and Better covenant.
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The Jews knew that they were God's chosen people and destined to be a holy priesthood for God to the world.
So then what was it that the "believing Jews" of those first few years believed?
Weren't they still going to Temple and requiring circumcision and observances of the law? Requirements that Paul was teaching were no longer necessary for Gentiles under the New and Better covenant.
Hi Bob, here is some historical information that may help in seeing how the first believers of the resurrected Christ were involved with the Jews. They eventually separated from the Jews, a slow process over the first few centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_of_early_Christianity_and_Judaism -------
Split of early Christianity and Judaism
Some scholars have argued to varying degrees that Christianity and Judaism did not separate as suddenly or as dramatically as sometimes thought and that the idea of two messiahs one suffering the second fulfilling the traditional messianic role was normative to ancient Judaism, in fact predating Jesus. Furthermore Jesus would have been viewed as fulfilling this role.
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The first Christians (the disciples or students of Jesus) were essentially all ethnically Jewish or Jewish proselytes. In other words, Jesus was Jewish, preached to the Jewish people and called from them his first disciples. However, the Great Commission, issued after the Resurrection is specifically directed at "all nations." Jewish Christians, as faithful religious Jews, regarded "Christianity" as an affirmation of every aspect of contemporary Judaism, with the addition of one extra belief — that Jesus was the Messiah.
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According to historian Shaye J.D. Cohen, early Christianity ceased to be a Jewish sect when it ceased to observe Jewish practices. Among the Jewish practices abandoned by Proto-orthodox Christianity, Circumcision was rejected as a requirement at the Council of Jerusalem, c. 50, though the decree of the council may parallel Jewish Noahide Law. The establishment of a Jewish Tax known as Fiscus Judaicus helped widen the gap between Christians and Jews for anyone that appeared to be Jewish was taxed after A.D. 70. Sabbath observance was modified, perhaps as early as Ignatius of Antioch (c.110). Quartodecimanism (observation of a Paschal feast on Nisan 14, the day of preparation for Passover, linked to Polycarp and thus to John the Apostle) was disputed by Pope Victor I (189-199) and formally rejected at the First Council of Nicaea in 325.
v
According to most scholars, the followers of Jesus composed principally apocalyptic Jewish sects during the late Second Temple period of the 1st century. Some Early Christian groups were strictly Jewish, such as the Ebionites and the early church leaders in Jerusalem, collectively called Jewish Christians. During this period, they were led by James the Just.
Paul of Tarsus, commonly known as Saint Paul, persecuted the early Jewish Christians, then converted and adopted the title of "Apostle to the Gentiles" and started proselytizing among the Gentiles. He persuaded the leaders of the Jerusalem Church to allow Gentile converts exemption from most Jewish commandments at the Council of Jerusalem.
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According to the majority of historians, Jesus' teachings were intelligible and acceptable in terms of Second Temple Judaism; what set Christians apart from Jews was their faith in Christ as the resurrected messiah. The belief in a resurrected Messiah is said to be unacceptable to Jews who practice Rabbinic Judaism; Jewish authorities have long used this fact to explain the break between Judaism and Christianity.
v
After the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70, sectarianism largely came to an end. Christianity survived, but broke with Judaism and became a separate religion; the Pharisees survived in the form of Rabbinic Judaism, today, known simply as "Judaism".
v
It has been argued that few Jews joined the Christian movement in the first century and that the movement probably never exceeding 1,000 Jewish members at any one time during the first century. Furthermore the size and importance of the Christian movement in general during the first century tends to be exaggerated by most scholars. By the end of the first century the total Christian population is estimated to have been only 7,530. These numbers help give a perspectives of what life in the early church would have been like.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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If the church was going to be taken over by imposters and wolves in sheeps clothing soon after these instructions were written then what does it profit us now to have these instructions?
Tks Kat for clarifying that the biblical church instructions were only for those called into Christianity. I've often wondered how church discipline worked in the spiritual (episunagoge) church of God.
I've read somewhere on the forum that the bible is an instruction manual for the elect.. But you're saying the biblical instructions for church are only for those 'called'?
Am I misunderstanding?
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Hi largely,
Yes those early teachings concerning how to organize 'church' was soon dropped by the believers as their gatherings were so small as not to need those kind of instructions. But the huge false church that was to form from those beginnings ran with those ideas and built upon them until we have the "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth" (Rev 17:5) that we see today.
The Bible is written about the people that God has been dealing with throughout history, it's shows the plan of God being worked out. But in all the stories there are many parables. Everybody that reads the Bible can see the stories and they make out of it what they will, that is what the church does. People read the Bible and use human reasoning to explain it, that is where the church gets all of there doctrines.
Mat 15:9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath (the Holy Spirit indwelling), to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not (the Holy Spirit indwelling), from him shall be taken away even that (truth) which he hath.
v. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
v. 14 And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive: (words in blue in parentheses are my addition)
It is only through the Holy Spirit that anybody can understand the deeper spiritual meanings of the symbols contained within the stories of the Bible. So it is an instruction manual to the elect, the truth is there, but it is indeed a mystery.
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
v. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html ------------------------------------
PARABLES ARE SPIRITUAL
What were those parables that Jesus taught? A parable is a story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Parables are HIGHER, SPIRITUAL, GLORIOUS teachings of ETERNAL things. Literally they are of little consequence; spiritually they are of enormous consequence. But without knowing what the symbols represent in a parable, no one could ever understand the higher meaning. Therefore the multitudes of people did not understand the teaching of Jesus Christ, because He did not explain the meaning of the symbols to the masses, only to His disciples in private.
Many people have tried to tell me that parables are to be taken literally. What they don’t realize is that they are talking about square circles. The very reason a parable is called a parable is so that we will know for sure that whatever is contained in the parable IS NOT LITERAL. Parables require spiritual understanding. Some require little (albeit some) spiritual understanding. Example: The Parable of a Beam in One’s Eye. There are few believers who would not understand the meaning of this parable, although they might not practice its teaching. Others such as The Parable of the Prodigal Son requires much more spiritual understanding, as there are many more spiritual truths contained in this story. And probably the most complex of all parables is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. (See my fifty-page explanation of this parable on this site).
I remember seeing Charlie Brown cartoons many years ago that had two levels of humor written into them: One very simple and easy to follow for little children; and another higher more sophisticated level of humor to keep the adults entertained as well. Unfortunately all too many Christians can only view parables on the level of very little children viewing Charlie Brown cartoons. The higher meaning is totally missed, and/or not believed.
A simple example: "Another parable spoke He unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." Jesus didn’t explain this parable, so what does it mean? Most certainly understand that leaven (like yeast) put into dough will cause the dough to rise through fermentation. But what is the spiritual application of this parable? Paul tells us that, "Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump" (I Cor. 5:6). But who believes this parable? According to Jesus, the kingdom of God is like this parable of the leaven and the lump. The kingdom of God moves and works throughout the entirety of the universe until the WHOLE of God’s creation is brought under its influence. But who believes it?
The time comes when Jesus Christ will turn over the kingdom of God to His Father: "Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power … that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:24 & 28b). Then the whole lump will be leavened with God! Everyone—ALL. This parable is not literal. The kingdom of God is not literally "leaven in a lump of dough! These teachings are SPIRITUAL! They teach GREAT SPIRITUAL TRUTHS! Every parable teaches a spiritual truth. Unless you understand the parable of the leaven and the dough, you don’t understand the gospel. Because the leaven in the dough is like the kingdom of God and Jesus came preaching the "GOSPEL" OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD! You see, if the leaven does NOT leaven the WHOLE lump, then it is NOT "like the kingdom of God." Anything that does not involve the whole (everyone) cannot be "like" the kingdom of God. For anything to be "like" the kingdom of God it must involve the whole, the all, everyone, all mankind. Therefore Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "like" leaven that leavens the WHOLE LUMP! Aren’t these little parables just MARVELOUS?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat there's a lot of scripture concerning how to do church.. It's hard to accept that we can just decide that those parts don't apply. How is this different than people picking and choosing scriptures that make them feel good and dropping ones that they don't agree with?
You say that those teachings about how to do church were dropped early on.. Where did you get this information?
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Those were my observations from what I have read in Scripture and some historical accounts. If you can show me the Scriptures you are speaking of it would help to answer your question.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I know there's more but here's a few..
Hebrews 3:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1 Tim 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1 Tim 3
3 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of [a]overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine [c]or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation [d]incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not [e]double-tongued, [f]or addicted to much wine [g]or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. 11 [h]Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a [j]high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
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There was definitely a time when the Apostles had so many people converting and believing in Christ, so there were large numbers of people meeting together and the Apostles were overseeing them. Now the Apostles were evangelizing and moving around teaching, so they determined to put people in authority of these groups as you can see spoken of in 1 Tim. 3. How long this lasted and when did some start leaving these larger groups to meet in homes, I'm not sure. But I believe it eventually happened to all true believers, even in that first generation of those churches.
The other Scripture in Hebrew 13:17 is probably still referring to the churches they were starting, but it can be applied to any group of believers where God has provided somebody to teach, such as we had with Ray. 1 Peter 5:5 an "elder" generally are those who have more life experience and are wiser because of it.
All of these are speaking of the groups/churches that were being started by the Apostles and were meant to be instruction to believers. Without the Holy Spirit working these things in the body of believers, well you have the church - Babylon, we all have had a taste of that and it was not good, to me anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Are we supposed to be as isolated as we are now? I mean I don't talk to anyone outside of this forum about this stuff. Now that I'm not part of a church I feel kind of like I'm rebelling against God for not being part of a body of believers..
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largeli, if like many of us, you were raised in a church, then that is what you became accustom to. Now that God has drawn you to Him things need to change, but it is natural to want to stay with what you are used to and miss what you have left behind. But there is a warning about returning to what God has called you out of.
2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
v. 22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.
I was raised in church and became quite involved when I was an adult. Now I've been out of church for about 8 years. I certainly missed my friends from church at first, it seems that the church was the only bond that we had (to my surprise) and when I left that is it. But now I have adjusted to this new way of life and what I'm spiritually gaining now does not compare in any way to what I had then. Of course now that you do not have the church's guiding, so it is important for you have to continue the Bible study, meditate and pray on your on, but the blessings you can reap are beyond amazing.
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him;
v. 18 having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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My concern isn't so much whether or not to go back to church.. I haven't been a part of a church for years. My concern is this.. God has literally blown my mind over and over and over ever since I left the church and focused on my own one on one relationship with Him without the input of the church. There's been revelation upon revelation and this site is a humongous part of that.. My question is, if the church instructions in the bible don't apply to us then what is it we're supposed to be doing with all these talents we've received? If the rest of my life is comprised of continually having my mind blown by new revelations and being a hermit then I'm fine with that but how then am I not the servant who buried his Masters talents instead of investing them?
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Mat 25:14 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
v. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
Well what do you surmise that the "talents" are? Can we understand that the "goods" that God has are spiritual and the talents that He gives us are spiritual as well. So what does He expect from us "when He returns"?
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
v. 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
v. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
v. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I see what you're saying.. I agree with that. Investing your talents within and bearing fruit for sure. But I also consider what Ray did with his talents and how I have benefited from Ray investing and multiplying what God revealed to him.
On one hand I feel guilty and feel like I should be busy doing something other than 'eating' so-to-speak.. On the other hand I really love that verse that says to make it your ambition to lead a quite life, work with your hands and mind your business.
1 thes 4:11
11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
I appreciate your responses.
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Friend largeli,
Understand your concern and I've been there.
Maybe this will help;
At this stage of our calling we are learning to depend upon God for everything.
That training will take many years to sink in and we are not yet ready to teach anyone else anything. Especially NOT the uncalled.
I have noted since being on the forum how often this subject comes up and my view is that we are not here to learn to teach; not yet. We are here to be taught and to examine ourselves to see how weak and poor and wretched we are and to fall on our knees daily and submit to God. That, in and of itself is a life long work that God is doing in us and becoming truly humble before God is very, very hard.
Our God loves us and is very patient and LONG suffering toward His beloved children. God is taking us through the steps very gradually so that we have every opportunity to face the facts that we are just "dirt" with some small communication abilities.
We are not qualified to teach anyone. In fact trying to teach another person, especially one that is not yet called is dangerous for them and is not doing them a favor.
In our relationships among ourselves, as the called, we have some protection since Lord Jesus has his hands on us. When we go out into the world to teach we are on our own and will likely do more harm than good.
Why second guess God by teaching what we do not yet understand. Trust God to do the calling and wait upon him in all things.
Respectfully offered, ole Indiana Bob
My concern isn't so much whether or not to go back to church.. I haven't been a part of a church for years. My concern is this.. God has literally blown my mind over and over and over ever since I left the church and focused on my own one on one relationship with Him without the input of the church. There's been revelation upon revelation and this site is a humongous part of that.. My question is, if the church instructions in the bible don't apply to us then what is it we're supposed to be doing with all these talents we've received? If the rest of my life is comprised of continually having my mind blown by new revelations and being a hermit then I'm fine with that but how then am I not the servant who buried his Masters talents instead of investing them?
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Like, when we have a 'turning one over to satan' ceremony, we wear special robes.
Now that is not very hard to imagine, Dave! :)
No...I just let them go. That's Spiritual.
This one though, takes alittle understanding, given what we have learnt in Babylon.
Weren't they still going to Temple and requiring circumcision and observances of the law? Requirements that Paul was teaching were no longer necessary for Gentiles under the New and Better covenant.
Interesting that most evangelical churches today style themselves as NT churches and do exactly the same thing.
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Friend largeli,
Understand your concern and I've been there.
Maybe this will help;
At this stage of our calling we are learning to depend upon God for everything.
That training will take many years to sink in and we are not yet ready to teach anyone else anything. Especially NOT the uncalled.
I have noted since being on the forum how often this subject comes up and my view is that we are not here to learn to teach; not yet. We are here to be taught and to examine ourselves to see how weak and poor and wretched we are and to fall on our knees daily and submit to God. That, in and of itself is a life long work that God is doing in us and becoming truly humble before God is very, very hard.
Our God loves us and is very patient and LONG suffering toward His beloved children. God is taking us through the steps very gradually so that we have every opportunity to face the facts that we are just "dirt" with some small communication abilities.
We are not qualified to teach anyone. In fact trying to teach another person, especially one that is not yet called is dangerous for them and is not doing them a favor.
In our relationships among ourselves, as the called, we have some protection since Lord Jesus has his hands on us. When we go out into the world to teach we are on our own and will likely do more harm than good.
Why second guess God by teaching what we do not yet understand. Trust God to do the calling and wait upon him in all things.
Respectfully offered, ole Indiana Bob
My concern isn't so much whether or not to go back to church.. I haven't been a part of a church for years. My concern is this.. God has literally blown my mind over and over and over ever since I left the church and focused on my own one on one relationship with Him without the input of the church. There's been revelation upon revelation and this site is a humongous part of that.. My question is, if the church instructions in the bible don't apply to us then what is it we're supposed to be doing with all these talents we've received? If the rest of my life is comprised of continually having my mind blown by new revelations and being a hermit then I'm fine with that but how then am I not the servant who buried his Masters talents instead of investing them?
:)
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IndianaBob I appreciate what you've said and I take it to heart..
If I may ask though, do you agree with Kat that the instructions in the bible about how to do church don't apply to us? This is the first time I've ever heard someone say that New Testament instructions for believers don't apply to us. I'm sure you can understand how that could be difficult to accept.
Forgetting the teaching aspect of church, what about fellowship? I mean other than a computer screen.. I see people reference certain conferences and speaking events that Ray held.. What happened to those? Why isn't there a directory or something where we can see if anyone lives in our town?
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We are just dirt with some small communication abilities.. I like that. Also what Kat said about the sun rays.
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Ray mentioned that verse, Hebrews 13:17, in his teachings, but I can't find it now. Here is what I wrote about that verse in the margins. The more accurate translation of the first part should read… "BELIEVE them that ARE HIGHLY ESTEEMED", instead of OBEY them that HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU. I believe Ray mentioned that this verse in the King James was translated this way due to the influence of the Catholic Church, and their desire to rule over the people, but I can't reference it. Any help? :)
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If anyone can link me to anything Ray wrote to help me understand why none of the New Testament instructions for church apply to us, I'd appreciate it. If all scripture is God breathed and usefull for us than I want to know what the use is for all the scriptures instructing us how to do church. If they don't apply to us then they are of no use. If they are of no use, then what other parts of the bible likewise do not apply?
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Unless you want to literally build an ark of physical gopher wood, then the literal and physical instructions for it are of "no use".
There's one example.
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Dave I can accept that certain things in the bible are not literal or physical. That's not the same as saying that they don't apply to us.
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EVERYTHING in Scripture "applies to us". Indeed, it is written FOR THE MAN OF GOD! HOW does it apply to us is the question. Noah built an Ark. Jesus is our ark. Physical Jerusalem still exists. "Symbolic" Jerusalem still exists. "Spiritual Jerusalem" also exists, but only in a few.
THE CHURCH/ekklessia still exists (and they will argue till Jesus comes over all the physical rituals and rites and 'laws' of their church). "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE." HIS CHURCH is being built...not with hands...made up of those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Etc. etc. etc. MANY are called. Few are chosen.
As I tried to communicate earlier, it makes little or no difference to me what "they" do. There is a Spirit behind what the Apostles wrote concerning the church, and it will affect the behavior of even the least "religious".
You can't 'join' His Church of your own free will and choice. But that doesn't mean once joined, you don't grow in all the Graces of God.
Maybe it's just me, but I get a strong sense from reading Paul, for an example, that he himself struggled with how to deliver this "spiritual truth". You know, it's important in a sense that believers meet a certain standard of behavior...even the most "spiritually minded"...but changing from being a carnal-minded babe (which is how he describes many of his readers) to a spiritually-minded man requires more. More "grace", more "wisdom", etc.
As for me, I think they shared THAT too...and often, if not always, at the same time they wrote to the 'little babes, the still carnal, and the bewitched'. It just takes more than being spoon-fed to get it in big enough mouthfuls to support a grown-up.
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EVERYTHING in Scripture "applies to us". Indeed, it is written FOR THE MAN OF GOD! HOW does it apply to us is the question. Noah built an Ark. Jesus is our ark. Physical Jerusalem still exists. "Symbolic" Jerusalem still exists. "Spiritual Jerusalem" also exists, but only in a few.
THE CHURCH/ekklessia still exists (and they will argue till Jesus comes over all the physical rituals and rites and 'laws' of their church). "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE." HIS CHURCH is being built...not with hands...made up of those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Etc. etc. etc. MANY are called. Few are chosen.
Totally worth repeating. :) 8)
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When Paul gave those instructions to the group of people meeting as a church at that time, it was understandable that they would benefit from the instruction. Now if there are groups meeting that are the true believers now, then they too would probably benefit from those Scripture as well.
But the believers that I know of are scattered all around the world, and do not visit much less meet together regularly, so those instruction would not be used by an individual. That's is what I am talking about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave I can accept that certain things in the bible are not literal or physical. That's not the same as saying that they don't apply to us.
I'll give it another shot then, boss. ;D You asked if there was any scripture that didn't 'apply to us'.
If you are not planning to build a physical ark with literal gopher wood, then the literal instructions God gave Noah don't apply to you.
Maybe, however, if you are spiritually "building" a spiritual "ark", there is tremendous spiritual truth to be spiritually gleaned from that story. Yet, Jesus said "Do you not know this parable? And how will you know all parables?"
Mar 4:14 The sower sows the Word.
Mar 4:15 And these are those by the wayside where the Word is sown. And when they hear, Satan comes at once and takes away the Word having been sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And likewise, these are the ones having been sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the Word, they immediately receive it with joy,
Mar 4:17 yet they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Then trouble or persecution having occurred through the Word, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 These are those being sown into the thorn bushes, those hearing the Word,
Mar 4:19 and the cares of this age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts about other things entering in, they choke the Word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are those being sown on the good ground, who hear and welcome the Word and bring forth fruit, one thirty, and one sixty, and one a hundredfold.
Does any of that sound familiar? I guarantee you it did to Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude. :D Do you "preach" the same way to every type of "seed"? Ray didn't. Neither did those men who taught him.
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Very interesting dialogue between Largeli and Kat (and everyone). Quite informative.
Mat_18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
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Dave thanks for your replies..
I don't want to frustrate you guys who have been around here for a long time and have dealt with the same questions over and over.. So I'm re-reading through the lake of fire paper about the church that Jesus built and I'm trying to chew on that as much as I can before I keep on with this thread..
But if I may trouble you one more time on this topic,
I asked if there were any New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us as Kat said the New Testament instructions for how to do church don't apply to us. You gave the building of the ark (Old Testament) as an example. I know there are a whole lot of commandments in the Old Testament that don't apply to us, but I am referring to New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us. This is the first time I've ever heard a believer say that something (in this case a LOT of something's) in the New Testament don't apply to believers today.
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"Husbands, love your wives even as Christ loved the church".
Since I'm not married, this doesn't apply to me. Except the part that does, of course. :D
Would it surprise or disappoint you to learn that not only do I not 'do church', I don't have a 'christian life', that is to say, distinct from the life which I live?
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But if I may trouble you one more time on this topic,
I asked if there were any New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us as Kat said the New Testament instructions for how to do church don't apply to us. You gave the building of the ark (Old Testament) as an example. I know there are a whole lot of commandments in the Old Testament that don't apply to us, but I am referring to New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us. This is the first time I've ever heard a believer say that something (in this case a LOT of something's) in the New Testament don't apply to believers today.
The Apostles continued to circumcise gentile men and they baptized those that converted, as the church does to this day.
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.
v. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." So she persuaded us.
Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
Acts 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
v. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
v. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
But Paul stopped baptizing and circumcising later on, as he learned more about the truth.
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm ------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Margaret:
Most people don't realize that there was a transition period from the end of Christ's ministry and the writing of Revelation. Most of the converts to Christianity continued to KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES as did the unbelievers. They were so zealous for the law of Moses, in fact, that they insisted that Paul and others force the Gentile converts to be law keepers as well. At the Jerusalem Conference mentioned in Acts 15 it is clear that the Apostles did not longer believe that Gentile converts had to be circumcised or follow any of the other laws of Moses. They were to live by a much higher spiritual law including the commandments to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.
Paul baptized in the beginning of his ministry. Late he said, "The Lord has not called me to baptize." All the institutionalized churches of men know is the physical. Some have even said that, "The physical IS THE SPIRITUAL." What rank nonsense. All physical rituals (baptism is a physical ritual) are types and shadows of spiritual realities. When we have the reality, why should we still look to the type or shadow? Would you sooner have the "shadow" that a new house casts on the grown, the "new house" that casts the shadow?
Jesus Christ is the spiritual reality of ALL TYPES AND SHADOWS. "Jesus Christ is the END of the law."
http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#nothing -----
If you are IN CHRIST, then CHRIST IS IN YOU, and Christ will live a NEW LIFE IN YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, and not through the carnal minded flesh of man.
THERE IS NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, THAT ONE CAN DO 'PHYSICALLY' TO GET SAVED 'SPIRITUALLY'!!
But what about all these 'physical things' of circumcision and baptism? Do we not have to be circumcised and baptized? YES WE DO! ABSOLUTELY. And here is how it is to be done:
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [theological doctrines] and vain DECEIT, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, and NOT AFTER CHRIST. For IN HIM dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the Head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how so?] with the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS [or knives], in putting off the BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: [notice, no period...] Buried WITH HIM [in 'WATER baptism?' No...] in baptism [how so? same way! 'WITHOUT HANDS; WITHOUT WATER, 'in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the BAPTISM OF CHRIST--there is but 'ONE BAPTISM,' Eph. 4:5!], wherein also you are risen WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the UNcircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together WITH HIM, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES
... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body [the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY OF THE SHADOW, the BODY OF CHRIST WHICH WAS CASTING THE SHADOW] is of [or belongs to] CHRIST" (Col. 2:8-13 & 16-17)!!!
At the conference at Jerusalem spoken of in the 15th chapter of Acts, Christian Pharisees were demanding that newly converted Gentiles must BE CIRCUMCISED AND KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES. Did the Apostles, elders, disciples, and the whole church under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit conclude that they should:
A. Be circumcised, but NOT to keep the law of Moses?
B. Keep the law of Moses, but NOT to be circumcised?
C. Be circumcised, AND keep the law of Moses?
D. NONE OF THE ABOVE?
It is, of course, NONE OF THE ABOVE. They ALL concluded in complete harmony with each other and the Spirit of God, that new Christian converts were not to be circumcised OR keep the law of Moses. Now everyone knows (don't they?) that the ritual of circumcision was the most important physical ritual in all the Old Covenant, and that that the Old Covenant itself WAS the 'Ten Commandments.'
"And He [GOD] declared unto you His [Old now] Covenant, which He commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deut. 4:13).
The TEN COMMANDMENTS were, in effect, THE OLD COVENANT! Read all of Acts 15 and see for yourself that the OLD covenant ten commandments and circumcision were NOT enforced upon NEW CHRISTIAN CONVERTS UNDER THE NEW COVENANT!
When we have JESUS CHRIST LIVING IN OUR VERY HEARTS AND MINDS AND SPIRITS, we don't need laws chiseled into hearts of STONY TABLETS! We must live a spiritual life FAR FAR ABOVE that of the legalistic Pharisaical hypocrites that thought that obeying physical laws makes a man SPIRITUAL.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ok.
So from the end of Jesus ministry to the revelation of John we have recorded in the New Testament the transition period in which the disciples were actually un-learning the physical church practices.. So it's not so much an instruction manual of how to do physical church as it is an instruction manual for how to un-learn physical church.. And how to do spiritual church.
Is that right?
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Yes Largeli,
I think that you are on the right path.
Keep those thoughts in your mind and continue to meditate and WAIT while God gently and purposefully grants you deeper insight. It is a process; cleaning out the cob webs of the indoctrination we all received in our former life.
Don't take concern for achieving a result, just enjoy the journey, it is all in God's hands and His perfect son sends the "comforter" to encourage us along the way.
Sincerely, friend Indiana Bob
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IndianaBob again I appreciate your words. By what you've said in this thread, I do believe you understand where I'm coming from.