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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: olasupo jacobs on January 26, 2011, 02:41:49 PM
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Please i need some clarification, I was reading this post from Kat in more of Rays teaching and came across this few lines that appear as my question above ( ray's quote in blue)
Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground." There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land.
The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation. God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens." God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them. This obviously took years. Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).
It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.
the underline statements appears to lend credence to my question whether some men were in existence b4 Adam...or most likely am the one viewing it wrongly or not understanding what the message is conveying...please clear my cobwebs on this Thanks forum members
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Hi Olasupo Jacobs,
This was from a resent email that was just posted http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12719.0.html
It brought out what you are asking, that yes there were humans on earth before Adam.
In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations.
Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground." There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land.
So in genesis 1:26 we have the creation of the first humans. This gives credence to the scientific evidence of man being on earth a very long time before Adam. Then the Genesis 2:6 account is of God forming Adam, as Ray puts it "a more advance human," I guess to bring civilization and culture to the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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After reading all of what Ray's say's about Adam and Eve, I come to a conclusion which may need correction.
Adam and Eve are a type/shadow of Jesus and His Elect Church right? Adam and Eve were farmers and cultivators right? Does that make Jesus and His Elect Church farmers and cultivators too? Farmers and cultivators of people instead of the ground? Consider the many metaphors and parables which portray God as a farmer, and the many parables about His Elect being the workers in the fields. So does that mean the people created before Adam and Eve represent "the many" and the rest of the world that are in need of spiritual farmers and cultivators?
If I'm way off, forgive me, I didn't know.
Thanks Olasupo Jacobs, good questions. I hope you dont think I'm hijacking your thread. It just seem to be a natural question after yours.
G.Driggs
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Friends and moderators,
This is certainly a new concept for me; that there were lower species of homo sapiens on the earth before the "first" man and the "first" woman from whom all the rest of "mankind" descended.
First, it seems to me that we need quite a lot of reasoned explanation before publishing such a theory.
And second these views seem to be leaning toward supporting the theory of MACRO-EVOLUTION for which there is plenty of scientific commentary from the "Darwin" adherents.
For example, if there were homosapiens that were in appearance like Adam and Eve, did they have language skills or did they just grunt as they foraged for food. Did they build anything and form societies for protection from the animals and from other competing tribes? Or did they roam in marauding bands subduing any opposition as portrayed in "B" movies? Did they have religious superstitions or beliefs etc? I think we need to flesh out these very brief comments in house before publishing them for all the world to consider and critique.
Respectfully offered, Indiana Bob
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it is becoming more interesting...my analytical mind is beginning to ask some questions based on certain things we know hear this:
1. The scripture lends voice to The first Adam and the last Adam figuratively referring to Adam of genesis and Jesus Christ what is the condition of those men you (or As Ray said) were created before Adam the husband of Eve who supposedly Gave birth to Cain who married one of the daughters of such men...
2. If death reign through one man supposedly the man who sinned ie Adam does that imply that those men mentioned that were before Adam sinless and doesn't need a saviour and some might think as many xtians believe they are the Nephilims( Supposed angels that left their first realm to copulate with humans) this account itself didnt come up until Noah's period of the flood.
3. Why is the genealogy of Jesus physically trace back to Adam and not those men previously created?
4. He thats born of the flesh is flesh..he thats born of the spirit is spirit so Jesus said...those men apart from being hunters are there any thing natural about them that we need to know?
Lastly do we have more Scriptures to substantiate this pre-adam beings or creatures that are humans also or do we take it as some of those revelations that are hard/strong meat to swallow only those whose understanding is above average in spiritual matters or revelations can decipher this. Please ill like to get more response ... if it becomes a hot topic that forum members might not want to contribute thier opinions to. i;ll be contented to let it lie....there many things we wont know in this lifetime until the resurrection of the just and unjust
I;ll leave this lines in one of my favorite song i know back then titled: Till that Day
We all have faults both great and small
but the one who keeps perfecting is Jesus
and his love is stronger than all
there are some of us who have stumble on our way
let the strong of us restore the weak till that day
Till the day the voice of unity resound in one accord
chorus: till the day we reach the fullness of the stature of our Lord
till the day that we know Jesus in the way that we are known
till the day we stand faultless with great joy before the throne
My brother i will love you till that day
My sister i will love you till that day
i will bear your burden till that day
that sum up the best approach to touchy topics and strong issues that is above immediate comprehesion... WALK IN LOVE
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I think our way of thinking about a thing can be so set and intertwined with what we believe that we resist having this upset and overturned. Just like the church is resistant about learning the truth, because it does not go along we what they always believed. This is very evident from all we have learned here about the truth and this thing about man should not be any different.
Hi Bob, it sounds like you are asking if the people that were on earth at the time that Adam was formed were sub-human or something, with no language or skills what so ever. I know you are just asking question that come to mind.
What it appears to me is that God created humans at a much earlier time and these were relatively intelligent people and had the ability to reason and think and learn. They obviously did not know God or walked with Him like Adam did, but I don't think He left them to be as animals with no skills and language. I think we have some very good examples of what these people were like in the tribal people that live around the world right now.
Cain probably married one of the women that was not from his (Adam) line. I do not think that he would have taken as his wife a woman that was some kind of dumb brute that could not even communicate with him other than to grunt ;)
I think with Adam's line God was now going to introduce sophistication into the world. That would at a much more rapid pace bring us to where we are today.
Olasupo, I would think that Adam is the line of human that God formed at the time in which He determined to deal directly with mankind. It is this line of human that He uses to explain how He is working His plan of salvation. There were other groups of people around the world that are never mentioned in the Bible, only those that came in direct contact with those people that He chose to deal with. Just because they came before Adam does not make them less human, nor does it make them any less a part of His plan of salvation.
Adam was Representative of all mankind, the sin in the garden was a representation that all are subject to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. Adam was just the individual that represents mankind and how God started working directly with mankind and explaining His plan of salvation through, because we still have and use that story today.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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thanks a lot Kat... am beginning to see the big picture....Jesus made reference to those not of this fold whom his father has given him and he would save....may be this creations b4 Adam are one of them,,,, more so i like the idea that it was thru Adam God began to unfold His grandest plan of salvation for all his creations,,,, of a certainty He is the father of Spirits of whom EVERY FAMILY IN HEAVEN & EARTH is named from....and all creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption by Him who subjected it in HOPE.....
remain blessed Kat and forum members
ps: am beginning to know why Cain was strongly afraid they might Kill him...if Only Adam,Eve.Cain & Abel existed then
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There is an abundance of hard evidence of human beings existing 100,000 or more years ago. Some say millions of years ago.
Since God "cannot lie" this is not some sort of trick where God fools us into believing a lie, else that would make God a deceiver/liar.
Also, these beings buried their dead. Dumb brutes do not bury their dead.
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Folks the email that Ray posted touched on some things that only Ray can explain better. We can discuss this here, but we need to be careful on speculating about things Ray did not touch on. If you have questions you can email him directly, if his health allows he can answer you. I don't want this to become a point of strife on the forum.
Craig
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Folks the email that Ray posted touched on some things that only Ray can explain better. We can discuss this here, but we need to be careful on speculating about things Ray did not touch on. If you have questions you can email him directly, if his health allows he can answer you. I don't want this to become a point of strife on the forum.
Craig
Sometimes I go too far, and Im pretty sure Ray hasn't taught about what I asked. Sorry my mistake. Still pretty cool there were people before Adam and Eve.
Did I imagine it where Ray said something like God did something different with Adam an Eve compared to the people created before? I could not find where I thought Ray said that.
G.Driggs
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interesting topic, i always thought that He created adam first then at the same time created many other people in different places around the area, but maybe that was just what i wanted to think. obviously adam did not see anything or anyone that was suited for him, until eve came along. i will have to study more and compare with scriptures, leaving my emotions out of it. thanks for your posts
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Maybe, Adam and Eve are not Jack and Jill.
Maybe, Adam and Eve symbolize God’s making more advanced humans (plural few) from out of many, (plural many)
For sure, many called few chosen, is the way God works.
Arc
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olasupop--loved your song...so true....
as for the rest....i always say, the more i learn, the more i realize i don't know,
and there is so much more to God than we can even imagine. =)
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
makes me smile just thinking about how awesome He is and how dumb we are (even tho we think we are so smart)...love God's sense of humor....love this
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For Kat,
Thanks for the response.
One question came immediately to mind.
In the general resurrection will God resurrect ALL of those who may have lived before Adam and Eve?
If so, why? What purpose would be served? Or if not why not?
If they were many, say billions, where will they live on this earth as they are resurrected.
Of course I do understand that this is speculation, but God may have put this question in my mind and
inquiring minds want to know. ???
For Olasupo Jacobs,
I have often wondered why we could not have Cain marrying one of his sisters or his hundreds of cousins.
There is no definite time frame between Adam/Eve and the generation of Cain and Abel other than the subsequent birth of Seth.
Adam and Eve could have had multiple children and grandchildren prior to Cain/Abel or after Cain/Abel for that matter.
We are not told how many children Adam/Eve had when Seth was born although Adam was then 130 years old.
130 years is plenty of time for children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren to have lived and reproduced.
Skipping over or ignoring intermediate sibling generations is common in scripture.
Just wondering, Ole Indiana Bob
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If they were many, say billions, where will they live on this earth as they are resurrected.
I've thought about that myself in the past but I'm learning to temper my inquisitiveness when God has not revealed in His word about it. However, it occurred to me that the earth currently is under a curse...the curse of sin. Look at how much of the world is virtually uninhabitable because of environmental conditions. You have all of the Arctic and Antarctic along with huge swaths of desert areas in Africa and even here in the U.S. where it's very hard for people to live because of no water, ect. How much population could the earth hold if the curse was lifted, the entire earth fertile, temperate and plenty of water, ect.
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Can I chime in?
I have in my own experience simply accepted that there are things in the bible that do not have a definitive answer. I have accepted my own ignorance of such things. I have a limited ability to understand the unknowable
( is that a word?) I can't think of anything that doesn't have a definite answer in scripture that in anyway goes against the "Foundational Truths" that we all ( I assume) believe in here.
No one man has the answer to every scriptural question ( except one and he walked around 2000 years ago)
If any one man or group had the answer to every scriptural question history would have shown that out by now.
I believe that it is arrogant to think that you do IMO.
I am by no means criticizing the OP or his question. It is a very valid question and the answer is I don't know.
Science would seem to point to "Neanderthals" but that leads us back to the question Ray answered in his 08 conference on "was the earth created in 7 days" No it was not created in what we call days.
This brings me back to another "opinion" that is strictly mine and that is..every time we has humans AD have tried to put our concept of linear time to scripture it causes strife. How can we fathom what has no beginning or end? Science has found a way to figure time into a mathematical formula that I believe only scratches the surface of just how awesome and amazing our Creator is. We think in terms of Past, Present, Future, Thats how we are wired. but that concept is meaningless to God and was created for us so we can learn to be Gods Children.
I may have gotten off topic here and I apologize I just wanted to add my two cents and say I am smart enough to understand I don't understand and humble enough to not feel like I should be able to.
Thanks ;)
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I am positive that God created some men before Adam. During my life, I have met many of their descendants. Real barbarians. ;D
LOL that was funny
I also wanted to add to my post above I am a Bible Truth amateur and in no way as learned as the Moderators and other members who post here frequently. They absolutely know what they are talking about and that is the reason this is the only place I come to find clarity to scriptural questions and to learn new things. :)
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Hi bob,
Well I certainly don't have all the answers, maybe not any of the answers. Now I do think about it, so if there were intelligent humans that lived before Adam, I would think that in itself would be good enough reason for them to be in the resurrection as much as any other human being, right?
Uh oh, but God didn't make the earth big enough for all these people to live on at one time. And there is not enough natural resources to substain all those people either :( Well lets see what we have.
This earth has immense tracts of desert, forests or jungles, mountains, polar regions, wetlands and swamps. So only one fourth of all the land on earth is fit for or used for the growing of crops and over half of that land is not under cultivation. So when you add up all the people that have lived that were to come up in the resurrection there would be major problems, wouldn't it? Or would it?
Do we really think that God has not thought this through? Did He underestimate how many people there would be at the resurrection? Or maybe things be worked out in a way that we don't suspect or can understand right now.
Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
Isa 11:5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
v. 6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
v. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
v. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den.
v. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
Things will be different.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi , all
This information bring many question,
Since all have sinned, Adam and eve where not the first.
Romans 5:12 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned
And also if Adam was created and eve formed,how were the people
before them made?, just a couple of thoughts .
But as touching on how all the people are going to live on the earth,
Revelation 21:1 (New International Version, ©2010)
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Isaiah 65:17 (New International Version, ©2010)
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind
Walt.
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As to the BUMP question, my understanding of scientific evidence, is that there was a quantum leap from Neanderthal, to Cro Magnon.
It appears that Cro Magnon's appearing, spelled the end for the inferior Troglodyte.
Any thoughts?
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I have to scram to Google.... :D
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......whew....have just cracked "Cro Magnon" in Wikipedia...there is loads of rich deposit, eye witness news there!!
Will need to dig, Grape. Thanks for the find!!
Gone underground.....
Arc
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Back up for air.....
The "quantum leap" is the evidence of God, bringing into His Design, the presence of what Ray identifies as the "more advanced human"!!!!
Excellent gift of evidence Grape....
Arc....off to reflect on the dirt on Troglodyte man, and the Glory of Gods breath forming Adam!
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And also if Adam was created and eve formed,how were the people
before them made?
Walt, well how were all the other creatures brought into being? I in no way believe in evolution, that life started from a chemical soup or something. So God must have created the earliest of them to get the ball rolling with animals, birds, fish and the first male and female human.
Now as far as deciphering all the nuances of Neanderthal and Cro Magnon and all those that came before Adam, it interesting, but how can we possibly figure that out?
But I do believe that the "more advanced human" that Ray was referring to is Adam. Adam walked with God for possibly many years even before Eve was brought into the picture. Do we think Adam was just sitting around doing nothing all that time? I know he named the animals, but what else was he doing? God must have taught Adam many things. There are ancient discovery that boggle scientist minds as to how these things were made, as they could not, with all our technology, reproduce them. Another thing they had knowledge about the great expanse of the universe. Surely God gave Adam some masterful knowledge from which this race of people used to excel in, thus the "more advanced humans."
Just some thoughts.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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"did some people existed b4 adam was created?"
Hi there Olasupo Jacobs. I don't know, I wasn't there and have no proof of such a thing.
What do the scriptures tell us about people before Adam? Not much if anything at all. Certainly, we have not seen much scripture presented as proof for it yet in your topic.
What does that leave us with? Theory and speculation.
How about Scientific evidence? The problem with scientific evidence for anything is that it is really easy if we are not very careful, to run out of real science and into theory and speculation. Too much scientific evidence is corrupted with just that and especially when it comes to things or the possibility of things or people existing millions of years ago or even a 100,00 years ago. I have come to believe that when presented with a theory that starts out with a statement along the lines of "millions of years ago," a long thought out fairy tale or theory is about to follow after.
Although I do think it is interesting to think on a little bit, people before Adam, I also think it's a deep rabbit hole to go down and a dark one at that. But, what do I know, not much so, maybe we will get a rock solid answer to your question before its over.
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I'd ask you to consider what Ray actually said, and in saying what he did and did not do in the Nashville '08 conference where this subject was initially hinted at. He taught from scripture that truth in science is part of the truth of God. He did not present a scientific theory, but he debunked one (or two) and taught what could be understood from scripture and a basic understanding of natural history--that is fully in line with the stated scriptural purpose of B-T--to expose those that contradict and to teach sound doctrine. And he showed that once again (as in many, many other cases) theologians get it wrong and teach the traditions of men instead of the very words of God...they parrot what others have said rather than reading what God said in scripture--ALL the words, comparing Spiritual with Spiritual, having two or three witnesses, etc. etc.
Now we're at this point, and already (still) speculating. It's understandable. Everybody like a sexy new subject. :D (though this one is not entirely new)
Is anybody here really, truly knowledgeable in science? If so, do you also have a knowledge of the scripture? If so, do you also have the spiritual 'chops' to follow God's rules for interpreting Scripture? If so, are you foolhardy enough to attempt to do that on Ray Smith's website? :D Has Ray?
Nobody can tell anybody what to think about this 'information'. Everybody is going to do what they want. We've really got no choice but to attempt to do what we want. Then we learn that we can't. :D That's the way God planned it.
I'll certainly agree with Stacey that--despite my feeling very old, I wasn't literally there either. The contemplation of the physical in any of scripture has got to be incomplete. Sciences like the many branches of natural history are also incomplete.
I'd urge everybody who finds themselves fascinated with this subject to read/view or re-read/re-view the Nashvill '08 conference materials (including the bible-study following the conference) to get a better grasp on what Ray is talking about, from his own mouth, and also what Ray is NOT saying.
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I'd urge everybody who finds themselves fascinated with this subject to read/view or re-read/re-view the Nashvill '08 conference materials (including the bible-study following the conference) to get a better grasp on what Ray is talking about, from his own mouth, and also what Ray is NOT saying.
If I may Dave and I agree with your overall message. The only thing is Ray did not talk about this subject at the actual conference. For all those who did not attend in 2008, there was a Friday informal meet & greet with Ray. I was there, Kat, René, Joe (Hillsbororiver), along with a host of forum members and other people of similar interests.
Ray went into mankind existing before Adam, using the scriptures that spoke of Cain & his wife building a civilization [Gen 3:16-17] along with mankind being 'created' in Genesis 1 and Adam being 'made' in Genesis 2. It was an eye opener, but there was no depth given. Not that night or even throughout the conference.
Now the conference spoke of ALL creation being created 'for' 6 days, with days representing periods of time, not literal 24 hour periods. Scientific evidence, along with scriptures, were used to debunk the popular six 24-hour days of creation belief as well as Noah's flood being worldwide. We can go through the conference notes and see multiple witnesses to these things.
However, this new subject, that Ray only briefly touched on in a recent email, does not have the same depth or scores of scriptural witnesses. There are a few, but not many. Does it mean it is not true or important because there are only a 'few' scriptures that speak about it? No, but it also means there is not a lot of solid foundation for us to stay on.
For most of us, the overwhelming scriptural witnesses that Ray uses in his teaching were the tool that God used to open our eyes to the true gospel. These new comments don't seem to have that same overwhelming scriptural support. So there's only so far any of us can take this, at least on the forum.
Just my thoughts,
Marques
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Hi Everyone,
I am quite satisfied with Rays recent Email and subsequent response to Jake(Understanding Genesis). Ray explains the difference or distinction between Genesis Chapter 1&2 emphasizing the difference between Two Hebrew Words. ASAH(MADE)-Genesis. 1:26 and YATSAR(FORMED)-Genesis. 2:6. Genesis. 2:3 doesn't say their wasn't Mankind. I guess people just assume there weren't any, like all of us did at one time. Apparently, Adam and Eve were the beginning of an Agricultural Type of Mankind, because up until their Creation, there was " no one to till the soil." None of this information should necessitate or require that we believe that these Hunters and Gatherers prior to Adam/Eve had inferior Brain development requiring that they were likened to "Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, Australopithecus, Pi ltdown Man or any apelike creature. Just like certain Civilizations and groups of People throughout the Centuries are Technologically advanced. The Pygmies or Aborigines contrasted with the U.S. or European Nations, these Hunters/Gatherers were not as Technologically advanced as Adam/Eve(Agricultural). None of this knowledge about their existence requires that Adam and Eve were Types or shadows. Insofar as I'm concerned, they were literally/physical people.
After I'm done gabbing, I will include information of Ray's from two sources(The Fathers Will Conference & that recent Email). Also, their are many specific details that the Scriptures don't elaborate on. This brings to mind whats written at John. 21:25 " And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the Books that would be written. Amen." What we have as Bible Canon(Genesis thru Revelation) contain enough of a Translation difficulty & controversy as recently shown from Ray's explanation of the first few Chapters of Genesis in that Email. Imagine having several more Books that are accepted as Scripture. Also, whenever Mainline Christianity(Orthodoxy) has a preconceived or established Doctrine on a particular subject, they will do whatever's necessary to suppress or explain away any Scriptural Information(meanings of Greek & Hebrew Words, Proven Scientific Discoveries(not Evolution) in order to maintain the Status Quo. They do this with everything else, so why not with any proof substantiating the existence of Humans created prior to Adam & Eve. They do this with Spirit, soul, The Resurrection, God's Nature, Punishment, Free Will anything that that threatens their "Cherished" Beliefs. so they translate Words a certain way in order to support their Doctrines. Most Forum Members have different skills at being able to gain understanding of What Ray teaches. For Me, it's definition and word usage as exemplified in Ray's explanation of ASAH & YATSAR in that Email response. For others it's the Scientific information, etc, etc. Ray excerpts from below.
Points from Genesis Understanding Email in Blue.
RAY'S COMMENT: Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity. Is this not the order found in the geologic table? Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve. In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations. Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground." There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land.
The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation. God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens." God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them. This obviously took years. Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).
It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.
From The Fathers Will regarding Adam/Eve.
Gen. 2:18 God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him."
But not now, we have to name the animals, and keep tilling the garden, we’ll just keep doing this. But if you going to believe orthodoxy, it’s 6 literal days, you got to fit it in there. It all happened in late afternoon, you know, between 3:00 and 6:00, well whatever.
God did not have to repeat that it’s not good that this man should stay alone, because he went 2 hours without a mate, give me a break. I mean I’m sure he had a lot of testosterone, but I don’t think that he couldn’t go 2 hours. I’m thinking it was years.
And what I am saying, in my heart and mind I don’t believe that Adam tilled the garden and took care of the garden, and how big was it? 1000 acres? I don’t know how big it was, he took care of all that and then he named all the animals and everything in a few hours before sunset. I just don’t believe that. I believe it took certainly months, if not years.
And if God was just going to create Adam and say ok, now one of your jobs in the future is going to be to keep the garden, no. Now He was saying it to him then, you might say ok some of it you and your wife are going to do together later, no then.
He gave it to him now, and by the way, when you and your wife are taking care of the garden I want you to name the animals. He had to name them then and after he named all 6000 species, guess what? There was no one for Adam, there was no one for him. Can’t you see the longing here, over a long period of time? I think it was at least years. He didn’t have a mate, he looked for one and even God admitted that it was not good for man to continue forever without a mate. I’ll make him one, but not today. Now, then He says but there was none found for him.
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
v. 22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
So we’re told God took a "rib" and closed it back up and made a woman out of the rib. Now He then said, wake up Adam I’ve got something for you. He wakes up Adam and He brings him the woman, Eve.
Gen 2:23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
She is part of my own bones and flesh, "this is it," Adam exclaimed. So first of all he was excited. I mean what a beauty, I mean come on all for me. But it was at least... you know he waited a long time, finally after all these years, finally someone for me.
How did he know it was bone of his bone? How could he look at Eve and say, you came out of me? What did he see? God didn’t say, 'Adam I know your going to wonder where this woman came from, I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her.' No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said that’s me, you come from me. How did he know that? He looked, he had something before he went to sleep, he had something and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn’t have it anymore. She had it! What do you suppose that was? He (just like God) was male and female. God is male and female, Adam was male and female. God took the female part and made a woman out of it. Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it’s over there. She came from me, that’s bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.
Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this? How God is longing for a compliment, a counterpart, someone to compliment someone. It says a counterpart in the Greek, a compliment, or a help meet. A counter part for Adam that was not found, now he has a compliment, a counterpart to him, to make him complete.
That’s what God is longing for. Where is it going to come from? Out of Him. He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making. So where did Christ come from?
In the Hebrew the word is no. 6763 - tsela, and it can be translated ‘rib,’ and door, side and chamber. In Ezekiel 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber. A chamber-maid is usually some one who tends to the house, but specially the bedroom. If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room. The bedroom is your most private room. Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts. Can you put it together? This is not a rib. He took the femininity from him and made a woman. First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.
Now an interesting thing. It says in Tim. 2:14, that when Eve took the forbidden fruit she was deceived, the serpent had deceived her. But Adam was not deceived. Well if she was deceived, and she ate the fruit. Why did Adam eat it? He wasn’t deceived, so why did he eat it? Why didn’t he say you dumb female, you stupid wife of mine. How could you do such a dumb thing. No, no he did not. She gave him some and he ate it too.
Why would he do that? He knew. Because God told him first, and He told him specifically. And we know Eve knew because she said to the serpent, “God has said.” But first He said it to Adam before he created Eve. You can eat of every tree but of this tree you can not and the day you eat there of you will DIE. (Gen. 2:16-17)
In the Hebrew, ‘to die you shall be dying.” You will begin to die, you will be mortal and just die. You will be mortal and come to old age and die. So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die. He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die. He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit. He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her. I’m not going to let her go alone, you see. So he was willing to die for that woman.
Hope this helps & doesn't add confusion, maybe I'll comment at a more convenient time regarding the Resurrection aspect of these Hunters/Gathers and probably regret it, ;), ;D.
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Excellent points Marques, I agree wholeheartedly.
I must admit I find this type of speculation and theorizing fascinating but at the same time tempered by how others especially new members and guests might perceive this type of topic. Going even further if we are perceived to encourage broad speculations where is the line drawn on other subjects that appear to still be either hidden or not apparently addressed in scripture.
Believe me I empathize with the moderators! ;)
Peace,
Joe
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Hello all....I was at the conference and Ray did talk about the Clovis Indians about 15-20,000 years ago on our continent. I have the book and the notes from that conference...and I left believing that there were people before Adam. If they are saying Adam was about 6,000 years ago, well science has proven over and over about people living all over the globe much longer than that.
For me, I would never ever broach this subject to ANY one- I can't explain it like Ray and why open up a can of worms??
Also men never were Neanderthal...entirely diff. species.
IMHO ;)
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Hey people, c'mon
You all take Mr. Smith as your god, he's not, Jesus in the flesh was not GOD, like he said in Mathew to the rich man, no body is good except the father. Mr. Smith said this & Mr. Smith said that, wake up! Mr. Smith also said that you must be led by the holy spirit to undersatand spirit, how many of us know the holy spirit?????? It's good to quote scripture and second Mr. Smith in every post, who's fooling who?
Get on your knees and ask GOD, just don't post Mr. Smith's quotes & think that's fine, understand for yourself, suddenly Mr. Smith is your messiah, c'mon you false followers, all of you, gain knowledge by yourselves, leave Mr. Smith to do what GOD called him to do! we all just want to add and take off others, be what GOD callled you to be.
How do we know if Mr. Smith is right! because our carnal minds said so. "who believed our report"
wake up! we fools!
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Hey people, c'mon
You all take Mr. Smith as your god, he's not, Jesus in the flesh was not GOD, like he said in Mathew to the rich man, no body is good except the father. Mr. Smith said this & Mr. Smith said that, wake up! Mr. Smith also said that you must be led by the holy spirit to undersatand spirit, how many of us know the holy spirit?????? It's good to quote scripture and second Mr. Smith in every post, who's fooling who?
Get on your knees and ask GOD, just don't post Mr. Smith's quotes & think that's fine, understand for yourself, suddenly Mr. Smith is your messiah, c'mon you false followers, all of you, gain knowledge by yourselves, leave Mr. Smith to do what GOD called him to do! we all just want to add and take off others, be what GOD callled you to be.
How do we know if Mr. Smith is right! because our carnal minds said so. "who believed our report"
wake up! we fools!
Please. I don't take Mr. Smith as my god or messiah, nor do I know anybody else who does. To discuss what Ray teaches may not be the meaning of life, but it is the purpose of this forum.
There's very little I knew that was genuinely true until somebody taught me. In my case, that person was Ray Smith. He gets double honor from me--not worship. Please don't call me or our members fools.
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1Luv I know exactly how your feeling. One morning when I was 5 yrs old, my mom made some hot chocolate before we went to school and she gave us some of those mini marshmellows to put in it and somehow before I was finished, one of them ended up my nose ( just trying to see if it would fit) and anyway, we couldn't get it out before the school bus came so I had to go to school with a dang marshmellow stuck in my nose. All the other kids laughed and I got reeeaaallll angry with them.
Longhorn
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Hi 1Luv,
Hey people, c'mon
You all take Mr. Smith as your god,
You haven't been here very long and don't know us very well. But if you accuse somebody of something that is not true, you are bearing false witness. We respect Ray as our teacher and one that is helping us understand who Jesus Christ and the Father really are. Your stating that we consider him more that a man is an insult to our belief and understanding of the soverign God.
Jesus in the flesh was not GOD
Is not a son that comes from his father, of the father? Well 'GOD' the Father said that Jesus Christ was His Son.
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
mercy, ,peace and love
Kat
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Jesus in the flesh was not GOD
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
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Hi , 1LUV
I guess,if you need to be technical,
Psalm 82:6 (New Living Translation)
6 I say, ‘You are gods;
you are all children of the Most High
.John 10:34-36 (New Living Translation)
34 Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures,that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’ 35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ 36 why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world.
Exodus 22:28 (Amplified Bible)
28You shall not revile God [the judges as His agents] or esteem lightly or curse a ruler of your people.
gods-strongs H430 and G2316 Refer to-
A magistrate is someone who has the authority to enforce laws, typically within a limited jurisdiction such as a province or county. The exact role of a magistrate within the legal system varies, depending on the nation which he or she serves. In some cases, for example, a magistrate is a judge who serves at a very high level, while in other instances a magistrate is simply a justice of the peace, charged with enforcing minor infractions.
The word is derived from the Latin magister, which means “master.” Around the Middle Ages, the term “magistrat” emerged in English, referring to a civil officer charged with enforcing the law, and in 1374, the modern form of the word emerged. The underlying concept of a magistrate is quite ancient; the Romans, for example, had civil officers much like our modern magistrates.
And yes Ray is a leader and teacher of Gods people.
All is good . :)
Walt.
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oh dear iluv. i believe our magistrate mods are not smiling. :o :o ???
play nice luv. it's all good. we know Who He Is that we should worship.
claudia
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wtf ??????? Claudia! Remember. You're a nice lady. ;D
ya must have been readin my mind john. i was just modifying my comment when you made yours. need to remember scriptures that hillsbororiver posted in another thread about following Christ's example.
thanks for thinkin 'bout me bro.
claudia
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Genesis Chapter One
Genesis 1:26-27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis Chapter Two
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:21-24
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
New Testament
Matthew 19:4-6
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female [Genesis chapter 1], And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh [Genesis chapter 2]? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mark 10:6-9
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female [Genesis chapter 1]. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh [Genesis chapter 2]: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
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oh dear iluv. i believe our magistrate mods are not smiling
Can't speak for everyone but I'm actually quite amused and smiling.
Craig
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oh dear iluv. i believe our magistrate mods are not smiling
Can't speak for everyone but I'm actually quite amused and smiling.
Craig
mag·is·trate /ˈmædʒəˌstreɪt, -strɪt/ Show Spelled
[maj-uh-streyt, -strit] Show IPA
–noun
1. a civil officer charged with the administration of the law.
2. a minor judicial officer, as a justice of the peace or the judge of a police court, having jurisdiction to try minor criminal cases and to conduct preliminary examinations of persons charged with serious crimes.
Magistrate/Moderator - Hum, it seems to fit. Now I feel really important. ;D
René
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Dear
Just said what's on my mind, can't change that! I have no free will to change that. I've been reading Mr. Smith's work since 2002, I respect his work, I researched & compared Mr. Smith's work and everything else comes out second best to Mr. Smith's work. I don't have to be here as long as some of you to know off topic scriptures being quoted and it's good to wanna be like Mr. Smith or Jesus but could we? by the replies I'm getting, doesn't seem so.
I would like to see people engaging and discussing the topics in question and not quoting scripture which don't fit those topics or be still, don't post!
If I offended any of you, please pray for me.
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If I offended any of you, please pray for me.
1Luv,
No offense taken, but I will be praying for you. Just as you posted what was on your heart, so do others that come here.
René
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Mr. Smith also said that you must be led by the holy spirit to undersatand spirit, how many of us know the holy spirit???
Get on your knees and ask GOD,
be what GOD callled you to be.
understand for yourself
1Luv
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Joh 4:23 But coming is the hour, and now is, when the true worshipers will be worshiping the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also is seeking such to be worshiping Him."
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."
Joh 14:26 Now the consoler, the holy spirit, which the Father will be sending in My name, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you."
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word
Peace...Mark
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So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die. He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die. He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit. He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her. I’m not going to let her go alone, you see. So he was willing to die for that woman.
Hope this helps & doesn't add confusion, maybe I'll comment at a more convenient time regarding the Resurrection aspect of these Hunters/Gathers and probably regret it, ;), ;D.
[/color][/color][/color]
That is a really beautiful love story!
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One of the things to keep in mind is that by our participation on this forum we are constrained not to bring in outside teachings/teachers and not to attempt to teach ourselves. Ray has never claimed to be the repository of all truth and Ray has changed his opinion on things as God reveals more to him. The reasons why we stick to talking about Ray has taught is simple and perhaps a reminder of the FAQ's is in order....
THE IMPORTANT STUFF:
This forum and how it is moderated, is different than most all religious based forums on the internet so please read carefully.
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It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.
This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS
Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray.
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This is the Bible-Truths.com forum. We've not gathered together to discuss other websites and ministries. Ray (and the moderators) don't want this website to be a gateway (formally or informally, publicly or privately) to them.
No inappropriate language or profanity allowed.
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This forum is moderated, if you feel you cannot accept the bounds of a limited forum then don’t join. The moderators do not have the time to explain every decision to you on why a post was deleted, so don’t expect it.
The moderators will generally try to remove posts before banning a member, don’t take it personally. If you see your posts being removed then perhaps you should review what you are writing to make sure is goes along with the forum rules. If you are asked to let a subject drop, or a particular subject is off limits then please abide by what the moderators ask. Don’t necessarily expect a reason for the request, many things go on behind the scenes of the forum and the moderators are doing what they feel is best.
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Learn to use the private mail function. If you don't know how then ask.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
Emphasis is mine;
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just another part of this Gen1:26
Gen 1:26 And God430 said,559 Let us make6213 man120 in our image,6754 after our likeness:1823 and let them have dominion7287 over the fish1710 of the sea,3220 and over the fowl5775 of the air,8064 and over the cattle,929 and over all3605 the earth,776 and over every3605 creeping thing7431 that creepeth7430 upon5921 the earth.776
we could look at is let us make the word make here
H6213
עשׂה
‛âśâh
aw-saw'
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.
is a coarse let us be making man
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So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die. He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die. He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit. He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her. I’m not going to let her go alone, you see. So he was willing to die for that woman.
That is a really beautiful love story!
Was Adam's carnal nature capable of true unselfish love?
Was it unselfish love Adam displayed, or love for himself? Beautiful? love story? He was willing to die for that woman? His willingness to die served only himself, didn't it, if it was because he didn't want to miss her? How would his death in this way profit her? If it didn’t profit her, how was it love? If he loved her at least as much or more than he loved himself, why didn't he ask God if he could take her place (die instead of her) instead of simply joining her in death? And perhaps he could have asked God to make another partner for her. What a selfish man. Thinking only of himself, I think. What does it matter what I think? Does Scripture agree (in the flesh there is no good thing, etc)?
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Please extend to me your kindness and patience.
Did no one see my question?
When I quoted Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 in an earlier post I was asking: What is the significance of the fact that, in regard to man at the beginning, and a man and his wife being no more twain but one flesh, and not to be separated in divorce, Jesus quoted from Genesis chapter one and Genesis chapter two in one seamless quote? Doesn’t this show that there was only one creation of mankind? Am I being too simple? Possibly. Please make me more complicated by a well-informed reply. This subject area does seem to be rather speculative though.
In the first (assuming there were two) creation of man, man was made in the image of God; and they were created male and female (Genesis 1:27). If I have understood correctly, Jesus said, because of the creation of male and female, in the beginning, for this cause, shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. A "one flesh" statement appears in Genesis chapter two. The reason given was because woman was taken out of man, which still equals a creation of male and female, (but in more detail?).
If there were two creations of man, did the same rules apply to both creations? It appears that the husband-wife one flesh bonding applied to the first creation, as well as to the second.
If the same rules applied to both creations, did no one in the first creation of man, a significant creation made in the image of God, start dying until after Adam sinned?
The main question(s): What is the significance of the fact that, in regard to man at the beginning, and a man and his wife being no more twain but one flesh, and not to be separated in divorce, Jesus quoted from Genesis chapter one and Genesis chapter two in one seamless quote? How does this affect the argument that there were two creations of man, or does it not affect it? How does it not affect it?
Thanks
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I guess that I didn't know that their is an 'inner circle' around here Mark with perhaps the exception of those fortunate few that live near Ray and can actually fellowship with him from time to time. The thing is though that we all had to ask to be admitted for membership to the forum and as part of that we agree to abide by the ground rules. One of the nice benefits of that is that there is very little rancor on this forum and one of the big reasons is that the moderators don't allow us to get too far off of what Ray has taught. On many Christian type forums there is constant bickering and backbiting over everything from A-Z and that doesn't happen around here. I'm not a mod (wouldn't want to be) and I simply copied from the FAQ's that we all agree to before we ever become members here.
God bless!!
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This thread is making my head spin now. Hate to think what it's doing to guests. We're over 50 posts and covering at least 4 topics. The OP was answered as best as it can be on page 1. I'm going to lock this one down now.
Oatmeal, it's a tricky web-forum operation to seperate out your question into a new thread, and I'm not sure I can do it without messing things up. Have some patience or repost it in a new thread, please. The other issues have run their course. If not, please start a new thread.