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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: winner08 on October 25, 2008, 09:45:40 PM
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Today has been a very strange day. I have been discussing The apostle Paul with others and It seems to me that they think Paul was not a true apostle. One even called him a false prophet. I had to bite my tongue. I was shock because I never heard of this before. Then one said He(Paul) was not filled with the Holy Spirit and was a false prophet. Then One said what Paul taught was not of Christ teachings. Now I never heard of this I just to it for granted that Paul was an apostle of God and he taught what Jesus taught. What's going on? I know if It wasn't for the teachings of Paul the gentiles would be in trouble. Was it not he that taught us that one did not have to be a Jew to be a child of God? That one can be a spiritual Jew. They said most christisn teaching is of Paul not Jesus. Also that Paul taught that salvation is based on Jesus crucifixion and teach the trinity. Now I am not smart enough and God has not given me the wisdom to know these things. I fell in my heart this is a bunch of crap. But I don't know how to give an ansewer to this I believe lies. One even ask me how do I know that Paul was supported by the Holy Spirit? Man Should I even try? or just let it go. But I don't like it when I am question on my belief and I can't give an ansewer. Maby none is needed? Maby God don/t want me to If He did would He not givve me the wisdom to ansewer these kind of questions?
Darren
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Darren,
The Apostle Paul was inspired by God to write more books of the New Testament than any other person. As Ray has stated many times, Paul was a "spiritual giant."
Here is an email question and reply from Ray regarding the Apostle Paul. I hope this helps you.
René
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6319.0.html
Dear Ray.
I have a question that has been “At me” for some time.
Jesus told the apostles to, not listen, to anyone coming after him that was teaching a Gospel contrary to the one that, he himself, had spoken. Even if it were an Angel of Light!!
If I am correct in what I believe Jesus and the Bible are telling us, then shouldn’t we be very careful of anyone claiming to have “Special” knowledge? Such as Paul? Who was knocked down and made blind by a “Being of Light“, claiming to be the Lord.
I am not saying that what Paul spoke was contrary. But being that the Word of God is so complex and hard enough to figure out on it’s own (Maybe not for some. But for me, it can be).
How are we to be sure that it was God that spoke to Paul and not Satan?
How do we know that Mohammad did not truly talk to God?
Why believe Paul?
The whole “Paul thing”, may have been a test from God himself to see if we were paying attention. To see if we would listen to Jesus and not listen to anyone else.
Is it possible that when Jesus spoke these words, he was telling us that this was the end of the prophets. That he, himself was the last one to come and tell us with All authority? And that we should not listen to anyone coming after him?
I guess there are groups out there (Gnostics or something) that do not believe that what Paul spoke, is Gospel. And I assume it is for these reasons.
I just don’t understand why God would “Lump” on top of US, another thing to be concerned with. Deciphering truths seem to be hard enough without, having to now, reason if Paul was speaking the True Word of God.
I would like to hear what you have to say about it. I respect what you say because you seem to have a good deal of “Horse Sense” (That is a complement by the way) when it comes to the word of God. And you have made me see the light on matters of Hell and God’s Justice.
Thank you.
Dante
Dear Dante:
I seriously do not understand your questions. Why would you question the Apostle Paul (maybe the greatest saint that has ever lived in the history of the world)? Because lying deceiving Gnostics question something is that reason for you to question it? The First church of Satan questioned God. They say we should worship Satan. so should we worship Satan. You asked whether it was God or Satan that talked to Muhammad? I could ask, How do we know it was not Satan talking with Moses? And where did Jesus say to "Not believe anyone who came after him?" It is not up to you to prove every hypocrite and false prophet to be wrong. I immediately reject what they say. I marvel that anyone could believe that Paul was not the grandest of followers of Jesus. His teachings are marvelous beyond compare to anything.\
I really don't know what to tell you, Dante. Do they have some evidence of Paul's evils deeds or teachings after his conversion? I think not.
God be with you,
Ray
PS I wish that we had a lot more of Paul's epistles.
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I agree with Ray on this.
How could anyone think that Paul was not of Christ?
I have heard people before saying that Paul was the Antichrist or an Antichrist, but that is only because they think that what Paul taught contrary to what Christ and the other apostles taught, and We all know why that is.
They don't have any clue what the scriptures mean!
Then you've got others that think that James was the Antichrist just because of the Babylonian heretic hero Martin Luther.
GGRRrrrrrrr!!! >:(
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I think they just don't want to see the truth. They are blind and make up all kinds of things. Man, will go to any extremes to deny the one who created them. Then again, maybe they have something against Jesus saving all. Maybe they are respectors of persons. I personally am convinced that Paul was who the Bible says. They could read when he was Saul and see how God converted him and his life had trials that we may never suffer. Just, as Ray would say"That Is A Bunch Of Crock".
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First of all I never said I believe what these people are saying. In fact I stated that I had to bite my tongue so that I would not jump down their throats. I certainly believe Paul to be great. It was he who was responsible for spreading the word through the gentile nations and I for one am grateful.
As I stated I never even heard of this about Paul before so I was shocked and I was wondering what have y'all heard. Don't confuse me with one of them.
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Darren,
Yes there are people out there who say Paul was a heretic; you have been studying the Scriptures with a master teacher.
Next time the conversation comes up ask them to show you; in the Scriptures where Paul contradicts and for them to
please explain it. Notice how every Epistle of Paul starts and check all his teaching with the rest of Scripture; there are
no contradictions. Even all the other Apostles quickly put that very question to bed; do some reading and study of Acts
and your main questions will be answered.
II Timothy 3:16:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
II Peter 3:16:
As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Acts 13:45:
But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spoke against those things which were spoken by Paul,
contradicting and blaspheming.
Acts 15:22:
Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul
and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brothers:
Peace, Love and knowledge Brother,
george.
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Darren,
We all struggle with the scriptures. No one has it all figured out and the churches like to put a lot of emphasis on men and certain men of the bible. A lot of churches I attended acted like to question anyone in the bible was evil. They acted as if those people were somehow different than the rest of us. As someone already stated look at the before and after of Saul/Paul. One thing we need to keep in mind is that Moses and Paul maybe didn't speak the same way or know the same things but never the less God was directing them. Anyone who is skilled as a "mental lawyer" on dealing with the scriptures can cast doubt about anyones relationship with God. The more I learn I realize the LESS I have to do with anything. And even though I don't compare to Paul or should worry if I do, I have heard him speak about being the worst of sinners etc. I think he realized that it was about God and nothing about Him.
Jeff
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There is a patton that I've noticed with people that hold this opinion about Paul.
They only see the letter and not the spirit.
They only compare physical with physical and not spiritual with spiritual.
Next time you talk to someone who holds this belief, just have a look at the understanding of all the scriptures and you'll see what I mean.
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Today has been a very strange day. I have been discussing The apostle Paul with others and It seems to me that they think Paul was not a true apostle. One even called him a false prophet. I had to bite my tongue. I was shock because I never heard of this before. Then one said He(Paul) was not filled with the Holy Spirit and was a false prophet. Then One said what Paul taught was not of Christ teachings. Now I never heard of this I just to it for granted that Paul was an apostle of God and he taught what Jesus taught. What's going on? I know if It wasn't for the teachings of Paul the gentiles would be in trouble. Was it not he that taught us that one did not have to be a Jew to be a child of God? That one can be a spiritual Jew. They said most christisn teaching is of Paul not Jesus. Also that Paul taught that salvation is based on Jesus crucifixion and teach the trinity. Now I am not smart enough and God has not given me the wisdom to know these things. I fell in my heart this is a bunch of crap. But I don't know how to give an ansewer to this I believe lies. One even ask me how do I know that Paul was supported by the Holy Spirit? Man Should I even try? or just let it go. But I don't like it when I am question on my belief and I can't give an ansewer. Maby none is needed? Maby God don/t want me to If He did would He not givve me the wisdom to ansewer these kind of questions?
Darren
Darren,
Like Rene said quoting Ray: " Paul was a Spiritual Giant " and wrote most of the New Testament. The person that stated to you that Paul was a Heretic; I wonder what Bible they were reading or not reading. Perhaps they were reading too much of the Apocrophal " New Testament. "
Also Paul is one of the best examples proving we don't have Free Will mentioned at Acts. chapter 9 and he was the worst of sinners prior to that, being changed by Christ in less than 10 seconds and as Ray has pointed out, never mentions Hell(Gehenna) in any of his writings. An important Doctrine and Idol of the Heart of Christendom and Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles, writing most of the New Testament, never mentions it.
Darren, I can appreciate why you had to " bite your tongue ", hopefully it didn't bleed too much; ;D
A lesson and training in the Art of Self-Control and Long Suffering, good example for us.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Then you've got others that think that James was the Antichrist just because of the Babylonian heretic hero Martin Luther.
GGRRrrrrrrr!!! >:(
I am going to correct the historic record here:
No - empathic Luther did not say James or such were wrong, Luther struggled with the words of James' espistle as the Church of Rome used the book of James against Grace and Justification by Faith in Jesus. He translated the epistle of James into common German language as the historic record shows despite Luther's own personal attacks from doctrinal obsessed Scholars of works to earn your salvation FROM then - you guessed it - the Babylonian system religious systems of 1500AD to 1600AD.
That is then a distortion of historical records. Luther often his vent his anger too far as it was DIRECTED at the Babylonian system of the day by calling the James espitle the "dunhill of the bible" in the hands of these scholars who wanted him dead and killed and to prove Rome was correct doctrinally.
I personally think Luther despite his errors was a ANTI-Babylonian hero[/b] considering he put the WORD of God for the first time in the hands of peasent Germans.
You will also note that Ray holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings to Luther as much he does the other mention cited here. On this issue having spent many years investigating earlier church fathers, I hold to a more modest account of historical records and not the rampant negativity on the internet.
Simply - Many Babylonian church systems of today HATE Luther - that is often an over looked reality.
Call to balance on such matters is in order.
digitalwise
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[I am going to correct the historic record here:
You will also note that Ray holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings to Luther as much he does the other mention cited here. On this issue having spent many years investigating earlier church fathers, I hold to a more modest account of historical records and not the rampant negativity on the internet.
digitalwise
Digitalwise,
That above statement in bold made by you is not true. Below is an excerpt from a LOF installment in which Ray states how he really feel about Martin Luther:
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
Installment XVI—HELL: Part C THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
Whereas Calvin himself calls this damning of the children "a horrible decree," modern follower of Calvinism, Dr. James Kennedy, has euphemized Calvin’s "horrible decree" down to "Hell is FAIR." I am not sure how any modern followers of Calvin can euphemize his burning of Christian believers at the stake. What hideously evil men John Calvin and Martin Luther were.
And Christians by the thousands ask who I think I am that I should be judging such prominent theologians? I don’t judge them, I just expose their damnable heresies as I have just done one more time.
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Hello Winner08
I too have recently been exposed to a most damnable seductive doctrine of man that perniciously devalues and slanders the status of Paul the Apostle. I do not know if you were exposed to the same false teaching. On the positive side for me it was a valuable exercise in discernment to encounter the deftly cunning and slanderous reasoning's that also presented a 2000 year "breach" period of Babylon. I did not click as fast as you did and I swollowed a bit more than you did before I recognised the insidious deception and ear stroking half truths.
If anyone else is being caught into deceitful teaching it is better to understand and believe the Scriptures and not the reasoning's of man and imaginings that pose themselves as sound doctrine when in fact they are only the doctrines of Demons.
Wolves in sheep's clothing mean only that some sheep have been devoured already or that there are wolverine apprentices within the flock. Paul warned of this happening. We can believe him. We can also believe what Ray teaches and that the Scriptures present Gods Word of Truth and Prophesy upon which we can depend, rely trust and believe.
Arc.
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I typed in the Apostle Paul on the internet and I found some interesting stuff. One thread is on Paul, James and Peter. If oneone goest there let me inow what you think.
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WOW! I'm sorry but you lost me with some of thoes big words. I guess i am not as smart as you think i should be.
1. perniciously, does that mean something like evil?
2 discernment?
3 defty?
Sorry,
darren
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Hi Digitalwise,
You will also note that Ray holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings to Luther as much he does the other mention cited here.
Ray spoke about Martin Luther a good bit about Luther work at the Mobile Conference in 07 'How we got the Bible.' He shows how he was a big contributor to the first Bibles, but to say he "holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings," well maybe for his work to translate Scripture. Luther may have been "ANTI-Babylonian" but a hero? He seems more like a Pharisee if anything to me.
Rene gave you an email, but here are a few more comments that Ray makes about Luther and I don't think he has much sympathy for the character of this man.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html --------
Yes, Martin Luther, he’s a German. Did he have any documents? Yes, Martin Luther had a Erasmus collection of Greek manuscripts, that later became known as Textus Receptus. Martin Luther translated his Germany version from those Texts and the Vulgate. When in doubt, look at somebody that’s already done it, you will learn things.
v
v
But it’s true, Martin Luther worked with Tyndale and he must have had a lot of influence with Tyndale. Because they knocked out that New Testament in one year.
v
v
Martin Luther although he did a lot of good things, you just read what his attitude was towards the peasants. ‘Kill them all and make it dirty, make it fast.’ No mercy.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4268.0.html ------
Dear Larry: No, Calvin and Luther were not just the persecuted, but the PERSECUTORS! They were among some of the most evil and vile humans who have ever drawn breath on this God's earth. According to history they have more blood on their hands than most serial killers.
God be with you,
Ray
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I have been reading alot about Paul on line and I just don't see where Paul taught anything but whay Jesus taught. is it not the same teachings?
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sorry I just don't have time to look up ever word I don't understand. I will just have to deal with it. why must some be such a smart @$@.
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Nothing to do with smarts Darren, just good old inspiration from God through Jesus Christ and persistence.
Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #16 on: Today at 11:31:51 AM » Quote
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I have been reading alot about Paul on line and I just don't see where Paul taught anything but whay Jesus taught. is it not the same teachings?
sorry I just don't have time to look up ever word I don't understand. I will just have to deal with it. why must some be such a smart @$@.
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I guess that crack about the dictionary was inspired by God.
If so I am sorry.
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Brother, you did not offend in the least bit, that was just a back at ya.
I guess that crack about the dictionary was inspired by God.
If so I am sorry.
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We need a dicitionary section here on the BT board ...otherwise for pernicious see strong delusions. .
It may be simpler to bookmark that Miriam web site, I just added it to my Look Up Folder..
beloved
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Darren
I had joined this one forum and there was this guys who discredited not only Paul but also 80% of the NT because he said it was written by either Paul or one of his cronies. (Almost all of the NT books, and heres a kicker --he was of the Jewish faith somewhat and he did believe OF Jesus and only some of the things Jesus said, but everything else was "interpolations from Paul and his cronies")
This is how it unfolded between me and him--
He brought the alleged accusation
I was appalled, scripturally "fought" back, but everytime i used something from the NT that would show how much of a hypocrite this guy was and all his beliefs, he would just say "oh that was written by Paul or one of his cronies so its not true"
I gave up for a couple of days and even questioned if he was right.
I came back again with "okay i wil just used the OT to prove Him wrong"--- I did this and then he started denying some things in the OT also even saying that the book of Job wasnt scripture. But by using just the OT i felt cornered and i remembered what Ray put in his Foundational Truths paper--"dont let them corner you" (paraphrasing)
So next i realised that i wont limit myself i will use all scripture, but this time i will turn his own words back on him because i started noticing him slipping up his words. (This guy really hated Paul) This guy said something and i basically told him that he should be careful because now your starting to sound like the guy you hate (Paul). His defense was that he was quoting Jeremiah not Paul so i said to him something like so if Paul is in agreement with Jeremiah, who you believe, why wouldnt you believe Paul is also speaking Truths?
And his response....Im still waiting on it and its been like a month or so. But in another thread he was posting some more hogwash and i confronted him on that and destoyed his theories again till he didnt want to talk to me any more. I basically to him thats okay but i will still respond to any of his posts that contradict the Word.
So now its at the point of where He used to post long posts, it is now to one or two sentences and i told him--
"Very gooood!! I have taught you something. If you keep your responses short, its less things i have, to use your own words against you.
Good job"
I guess what i am getting at is that this guy threw at me this Paul stuff and it was the first time i had ever heard of it and it did make me wonder and when i did give up at first i knew that if i didnt get the full answer it would possibly grow into more and more doubt, so i refuted this guy and the more i refuted him the more evidence God was giving of Pauls apostleship. That guy thought i was only talking to him because he thought i was trying to save him in the way that traditional christainity does it but i told him flat out that no i am not trying to save you at all, Im using you. Using you to strengthen my faith. (Well not me using him, but God using him to help strengthen my knowledge of scripture)
Paul never contradicted anything in OT and as for the NT that that guy said Paul and all his cronies wrote didnt contradict the OT and they didnt even contradict themselves. I told him that Paul must of been a genius to write all that and him and his cronies never contradicted. With all of mankinds advances today we cant get that kind of fluidity, that is in the whole Word of God, on any subject these days.
I dont know i thought i would share my story.
Hope it helps
Anthony
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Anthony great post. I do remember Ray saying don't let them push you into a corner stay on the offensive. Yes this is good
Darren
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First of all go back and read my post. for your information I never said I wanted any definition of any words. I said. Second of all, you should not assume anything if you don't know What I said. Like Ray says read the words.
Third I don't recall asking you anything.
I am happy with my vocabulary: I don't need,want or ask you for any help. Back OFF
Darren
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Look I'm sorry for being rude. I had a real bad day and I took it out on you. You did't deserve that.
Darren
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A close internet friend almost convinced me Paul was a false apostle, but then nothing seemed to fit scripturally.
I hated to do it but had to break the tie with her, I didn't even know why I was doing it at the time but understand now.
I am not sure why so many hate the apostle Paul?
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Thanks A. all is good.
Darren
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Ok children 8), back to study hall for chastening :o. All right, chastening done ;D; now where are the other
dragons to slay ???. On second thought lets drop in on longhorn and take Craig and Dennis, they have
been a bit (moderately) under the weather and acting weird :-\.
george.
Thanks A. all is good.
Darren
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Look I'm sorry for being rude. I had a real bad day and I took it out on you. You did't deserve that.
Darren
I am very proud of you Darren.....Mat 5:9 Blessed the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God
I am so glad that things have been resolved, I am proud to be part of this family.
Love
Heidi
PS read your post in "off topics" as well, God is good!
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Darren, I love how we all can see how that spirit living in you convicts. I never seen that in most of the organzied churches I went to.
This forum is a blessing to us and helps us all in our walk.
Love To All
Marlene
Also, its good to see the ones forgive so easily that speaks for there spirit also.
God reigns !
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Interesting topic and I believe we should not just be lazy and cast out anything that is contrary to our present beliefs but should continue to analyse and strengthen our knowledge of the truth.
I say this because there are some very salient doctrinal differences between Paul and Peter, for example, which warrants some indepth study.
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......because there are some very salient doctrinal differences between Paul and Peter, for example, which warrants some indepth study.
Hi there high pulpit and welcome to the forum. Here is an emailed response from Ray regarding this very subject:
http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#PeterPaul
Dear Ray:
Well I read part of your "Secret Rapture" Out of love there are a few things that I disagree with. In the paragraph that starts like this, It makes me sad to see sincere believers buy into a divisive theory!
I agree that Peter and Paul were both spiritual giants.
But when you say there was a mutual love and respect for each other. and that they worked together sharing knowledge. where in scripture do you find this?
Gala.2-11:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I (Paul) withstood him to the face, because he (Peter) was to be blamed. 12) For before that certain (Peter) came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. (Jews) 13) And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their DISSIMULATION. 14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel. I said unto Peter!!!!"
It sure doesn't sound to me that they were buddies.
Then you say that Peters epistles directly correlates with Paul's Epistles. If so why did Peter say in 2Peter.3-16 As also in all his (Paul's) Epistles, speaking in them of these things:in which are some things hard to be understood They sure don't correlate when Peter says this, do they?
Ray If you want to correspond with me great. But lets get one thing straight, any time that we make a statement, we will give scripture and verse. But if you are to busy, then you are to just to busy, But as for me I am never to busy when it comes to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
In His Grace Chet
[Ray Replies]
Dear Chester:
Where is the Scripture that Peter and Paul shared knowledge and were in agreement you ask?
When Paul and Barnabas came to Jerusalem it states that
"...they were received of the church, and of the apostles [one being PETER] AND ELDERS..." (Acts 15:4).
"And when there had been much disputing PETER rose up, and said to them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that THE GENTILES BY MY MOUTH SHOULD HEAR THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL, and believe ... Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and PAUL ... And after these had held their peace, JAMES answered ... Then it PLEASED THE APOSTLES [there was harmony between Peter, Paul, and James in this conference] and ELDERS, with the WHOLE CHURCH..." (Acts 15:713,22).
"It seemed GOOD unto US [the chief apostles including Peter and Paul] being assembled with ONE ACCORD [Perfect harmony here], to send chose men unto you with our BELOVED Barnabas and Paul [you might recall that it is PETER that calls his brother Paul, "BELOVED"], men who have hazarded their lives for the name of OUR Lord Jesus Christ [I don't see any animosity here]" (Acts 15:25-26).
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as OUR BELOVED PAUL [I don't see any friction or animosity here, do you?] also according to the WISDOM given unto him hath WRITTEN UNTO YOU; As also in all his epistles [Peter had THEM ALL!], speaking in them of THESE THINGS [the SAME THINGS that Peter writes about]; in which are some things hard to be understood [but PETER UNDERSTOOD THEM, THAT'S FOR SURE!], which they that are UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE WREST [THESE are the people who don't "understand" Paul's epistles, the 'UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE'!!]" (II Pet. 3:15-16).
Peter then tells them that,
"YE therefore, beloved, seeing YE KNOW THESE THINGS [the one's that Peter is writing to are not the "UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE," NO, they 'KNOW THESE THINGS'] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the ERROR OF THE WICKED [they were the one's not understanding Paul's epistles, not Peter!], fall from your own steadfastness. But GROW IN GRACE AND THE KNOWLEDGE [sound like Paul does it?] of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Pet. 3:17-18).
One does not extol the virtues of a man as Peter does and call him 'BELOVED BROTHER' when one is supposedly having a feud going one. The splits, and divisions, and animosity, etc., etc., is nowhere to be found between the circumcision and uncircumcision saints or between Peter and Paul, but is rather found in the carnal minds of those who write such unscriptural trash! Paul confronted Peter--ONCE. But years and years later we see that they were in perfect harmony (as I believe they were immediately after the confrontation in Gal. 2).
Do we think that either Peter OR Paul where so carnal as to hold a lifetime GRUDGE? Paul said, that we are not to even "let the sun go down upon our wrath" (Eph. 4:26), and you think they held a grudge ALL OF THEIR LIVES? Peter called Paul "OUR BELOVED BROTHER." Does that sound like there was a division between them? Beloved brother. What was Peter's teaching concerning the "brethren?"
"Finally, be ye all of ONE MIND, having compassion one of another, LOVE AS BRETHREN, be pitiful, be courteous; Not rendering evil for evil" (I Pet. 3:8).
Do we believe that Peter didn't even follow his own instructions?
"Honour all men, LOVE THE BROTHERHOOD" (I Pet. 2:17).
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto UNFEIGNED LOVE OF THE BRETHREN, see that ye love one another with a pure heart FERVENTLY" (I Pet. 1:22).
And just why do you suppose, that of all people, it was Silas (Paul's traveling companion) who urged Peter to write his epistles in the first place?
It makes my blood boil with I read and hear of those who would teach others of NON-EXISTENT divisions and enmity between even the chief Apostles! HOW DARE any try to make Peter sound like some carnal-minded slob who held a lifetime of anger against Paul?
Chester, your last statement is really an uncalled for cheap put down. You say that your are "never to busy when it comes to MY Lord..." But I AM? Is that what you are suggesting? How many days have you answered emails for SIXTEEN HOURS STRAIGHT without a break or even breakfast, lunch, or dinner? And "MY" Lord is also the Lord of the whole world!
Sincerely,
Ray
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Interesting topic and I believe we should not just be lazy and cast out anything that is contrary to our present beliefs but should continue to analyse and strengthen our knowledge of the truth.
I say this because there are some very salient doctrinal differences between Paul and Peter, for example, which warrants some indepth study.
high pulpit,
You are wrong. Ultimately, there were NO doctrinal differences between Paul and Peter. They became "spiritually" one with Christ and likeminded.
René
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Interesting topic and I believe we should not just be lazy and cast out anything that is contrary to our present beliefs but should continue to analyse and strengthen our knowledge of the truth.
I say this because there are some very salient doctrinal differences between Paul and Peter, for example, which warrants some indepth study.
Welcome to the forum and I look forward to hearing from you. I'm Indiana Bob and I live in Culver, IN a small lakeside town about 50 miles South of the Michigan State line. Been married 47 years to the same pretty girl and enjoy sharing ideas, history of the U. S. and history of the church.
Just curious about your name "high pulpit". How did you come by that name and does it express any certain approach to email communication?
Regards, Indiana Bob
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Not to be a chorus but; high pulpit what you say is Scripturally wrong, yes there was disagreement between
Paul and Peter at first. Anyone who reads the Acts of the Apostles can easily discern from a straightforward
reading (even like a book) that the differences were in their understanding and it was argued and discussed
and then agreed mutually that they were both preaching the same Gospel.
Read: http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#PeterPaul
or Read: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg49583.html#msg49583
Much more to read but i need to go to work.
Love and Peace brother,
George.
Interesting topic and I believe we should not just be lazy and cast out anything that is contrary to our present beliefs but should continue to analyse and strengthen our knowledge of the truth.
I say this because there are some very salient doctrinal differences between Paul and Peter, for example, which warrants some indepth study.
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high pulpit?
heidi gave you an excellent link to the truth from the scriptures themselves. i can only exhort that you read and study them. i believe you have been fed a lie regarding to the true relationship between peter and paul. God will show you the truth if you honestly want to know the Truth. of course, He already knows what you want and don't want. i too am curious, as is indianabob about you avatar name.
claudia
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Wow, what an interesting thread. (On several levels).
Paul was sent to the Gentiles. Jesus brought His message to the Jews. I hope I am correct on this. So I actually spend more time in Paul's epistles as I figure they are to ME (a gentile).
I haven't heard of this new message going around about Paul. Hope I don't. I don't get the purpose of it. Wasn't there a group ((the Concordant bunch??)that was saying Paul's gospel was a diff. 2nd gospel and higher or something??? can't remember. But I read it on BT (maybe e mail section).
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I think they have to receive the truth or kill the messenger. If they receive the truth they will have to acknowledge the beast. " O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
John 3:
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
They hated Paul in his time and they will hate him now.
2 Corinthians 11
What anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?
30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.
John 15:
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
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So far it has been my experience that is it mostly those of the Jewish faith that are trying to discredit Paul. As i stated in an earlier post that guy has a couple of threads on different subjects trying to negate Paul-(He acknowledges Jesus as a savior, but only of the past Israelites to bring Judah.... I dont know some nonsense)-- and its getting easier and easier to prove this guy wrong even without using something he considers was written by Paul or "his cronies".
Anthony
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Anthony, I am going back and forth with this person for a month now on Paul. How Paul did not teach what Christ or the apostles taught. Finnally I just said James and peter who at first may have not agreed on Paul's teachings had a meeting and came to the conclusion for Paul to continue his way of teaching the gentiles. I then said If you believe that God's Will is ALWAYS done would you not say that God put His stamp of approval on Paul? Would you not say that if God did not want Paul to teach the way and what he taught that God would have stop him? God let Peter and them know that it was His will for Paul to do what he was doing and that they (peter and them) would back him. The more I think about it, did not Paul say he knew how and what to teach because he was taught by the Holy Spirit? Did Paul know anything about what Jesus and the disciples taught. Did he understand their teachings before God struck him? Was not Paul tottally against the teachings of Christ and wanted to destroy it. Wouldn't being taught by the Holy Spirit be just as if he was learning from Jesus Himself ? Not having a clue to what or how to teach, to knowing what and how to teach, that's awesome.
What exactly did Paul teach that was against what the disciples taught?
I figured that Paul got his wisdom directly for the Holy Spirit. Is not the way he got it? If so, is not that the greatest gift to a man? To have the wisdom given to you directly from God? It would seem so to me. But I could be wrong. But I'm not. Not on that.
Thanks,
Darren
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Hi Darren, Anthony and All my Sisters and Brothers,
I am happy to see that you are able to stand by the Spirit in you when confronted by hypocrites and liars
who would try to pervert the Gospel Of The Kingdom Given By Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ. Everyday
God makes it easier for us to understand why the Hour is so Important and that we must not give place to
murderers of The Hope Of Salvation, Reconciliation and Adoption that IS This Good News Of The Kingdom Of
God The Almighty Father Of All, Everyone.
In Jesus Christ Our Lord,
george.
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Anthony, I am going back and forth with this person for a month now on Paul. How Paul did not teach what Christ or the apostles taught. Finnally I just said James and peter who at first may have not agreed on Paul's teachings had a meeting and came to the conclusion for Paul to continue his way of teaching the gentiles.
No, right here you are going on the defensive. James and Peter (well at least when they wrote their letters) were always in agreement with Jesus and so was Paul. Jesus is the standard to judge by (OT and NT). Paul confronted Peter for his hypocrisy.
I then said If you believe that God's Will is ALWAYS done would you not say that God put His stamp of approval on Paul? WoulGod let Peter and them know that it was His will for Paul to do what he was doing and that they (peter and them) would back him.d you not say that if God did not want Paul to teach the way and what he taught that God would have stop him?
You cant use that as a defense because they can come back and say something about satan doing what he does and why dont God stop him.
The more I think about it, did not Paul say he knew how and what to teach because he was taught by the Holy Spirit? Did Paul know anything about what Jesus and the disciples taught. Did he understand their teachings before God struck him? Was not Paul tottally against the teachings of Christ and wanted to destroy it. Wouldn't being taught by the Holy Spirit be just as if he was learning from Jesus Himself ? Not having a clue to what or how to teach, to knowing what and how to teach, that's awesome.
There you go-- build from there and show how he stayed with scripture (they only had "OT" scripture then) and how he stayed with the Gospel.
What exactly did Paul teach that was against what the disciples taught?
In my experience, they say that Paul tries to nullify the Law. This is not true. They just dont understand Romans 7 and 8. Plus throughout his epistles Paul doesnt nullify the ten commandmants.
I figured that Paul got his wisdom directly for the Holy Spirit. Is not the way he got it? If so, is not that the greatest gift to a man? To have the wisdom given to you directly from God? It would seem so to me. But I could be wrong. But I'm not. Not on that.
You are sooo right on that it is given, i just recently did i word study on wisdom and in I believe in Proverbs or Psalms it is showing that it is only given, wisdom and understanding, and no other way.
I can help you better but right now im half asleep
Anthony
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Your right I go on the defensive and thats bad. If fact I just had enough with this guy. I laid it out best I can, I should have let it go a while back but I ego got in the way. Pride got in the way I want to show him and it is not my place really. It is God's place I laid it out and God will take over. If God wants to open his eys (the guy) then God will open his eys if not it was not ment to be. You know what if we wouldn't let things like our pride and ego get in the way of Gods work I bet he would be alot happier with us. YOu think?? Craig told me something in one of my post awhile back he said now this is not a quote but it went something like this, why was is my place to make him understand or something alone those lines. Like say your peice and let it go. But he was right I am not a teacher it is not my place to try to make someone to believe as I do. I think everybody heard this saying before, let go and let God.
Thanks,
Darren
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Amen Brother,
well said and done.
george.
Your right I go on the defensive and thats bad. If fact I just had enough with this guy. I laid it out best I can, I should have let it go a while back but I ego got in the way. Pride got in the way I want to show him and it is not my place really. It is God's place I laid it out and God will take over. If God wants to open his eys (the guy) then God will open his eys if not it was not ment to be. You know what if we wouldn't let things like our pride and ego get in the way of Gods work I bet he would be alot happier with us. YOu think?? Craig told me something in one of my post awhile back he said now this is not a quote but it went something like this, why was is my place to make him understand or something alone those lines. Like say your peice and let it go. But he was right I am not a teacher it is not my place to try to make someone to believe as I do. I think everybody heard this saying before, let go and let God.
Thanks,
Darren
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Your right I go on the defensive and thats bad. If fact I just had enough with this guy. I laid it out best I can, I should have let it go a while back but I ego got in the way. Pride got in the way I want to show him and it is not my place really. It is God's place I laid it out and God will take over. If God wants to open his eys (the guy) then God will open his eys if not it was not ment to be. You know what if we wouldn't let things like our pride and ego get in the way of Gods work I bet he would be alot happier with us. YOu think?? Craig told me something in one of my post awhile back he said now this is not a quote but it went something like this, why was is my place to make him understand or something alone those lines. Like say your peice and let it go. But he was right I am not a teacher it is not my place to try to make someone to believe as I do. I think everybody heard this saying before, let go and let God.
Thanks,
Darren
okay you had enough with this guy but did you dead all the doubt in you that HE planted? So now its not about him its about you. you gotta squash all the doubt that he planted. I dont know how it is for you but for me it set doubt for me so i had to get rid of what was planted in me. Dont you agree it can be planted both ways?
Pride got in the way to show him but do your pride say to you that you know that what he is saying is false? Are you sure what he says is false? Yes i agree to a point to let it go, but if in you the subject is not completly resolved you cant let it go till you are completly convinced one way or another. You dont have to debate or refute him, but you have to concretely know for yourself--and this can only be given by God of course.
It is God's place I laid it out and God will take over. If God wants to open his eys (the guy) then God will open his eys if not it was not ment to be. You know what if we wouldn't let things like our pride and ego get in the way of Gods work I bet he would be alot happier with us. YOu think?? Craig told me something in one of my post awhile back he said now this is not a quote but it went something like this, why was is my place to make him understand or something alone those lines
.
You have to lay it out to whomever to where they have no defense (only those who will have a defense is those who will go tit for tat on verses that dont use the whole Word of God as context, those who dont understand the "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little" verses in Isa.).
No matter what, you are doing Gods work so you really cant say its your pride getting in the way. Its not your place to make some one understand but when confronted about your hope you are responsible to have an answer why you have that hope/belief. There is a big difference with trying to convert and defending your hope.
Im not trying to preach, but i will share my experience at least with this subject tomorrow
Anthony
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Darren,
I have decided to lock this topic because you have received ample advice and direction to your original question.
However, here is a link to a bible study by Ray that should be of help to you when dealing with people who want to argue about scripture. I've included a few excerpts as well.
René
FOUNDATIONAL TRUTHS
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html
Today’s lesson is going to be one thing, one idea. I wanted it to be something that will be really helpful to you. I titled it Foundational Truths, how much truth do you need to set one free? In John it says;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
So I want to give you enough information so that, on a rather simplistic level, you can take on any and all comers, TV preachers or people, you know. Because a lot of us run into people who will argue about Scripture and say, ‘yes God is going to torture people, because it says so.’
Is there a way to learn how to overcome virtually all of these hundreds of Scriptures that they throw at you? I think there is. That’s what today’s study is all about.
Now you don’t need to be a scholar and you don’t even need to be super intelligent. You don’t need any of those things to understand a truth.