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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: myms on November 21, 2009, 01:36:10 AM
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Ray said in his recent talks: 'COMMENT: The spiritual sperm did not descend from heaven, but rather, the SON OF MAN descended from heaven. Do you believe these Scriptures or do you despise these Scriptures?'
Is Ray just affirming the point that Jesus pre-existed with His Father? Or is he also intimating that the conception of Jesus within Mary did not involve a spiritual sperm joining with an egg from Mary?
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Ray said in his recent talks: 'COMMENT: The spiritual sperm did not descend from heaven, but rather, the SON OF MAN descended from heaven. Do you believe these Scriptures or do you despise these Scriptures?'
Is Ray just affirming the point that Jesus pre-existed with His Father? Or is he also intimating that the conception of Jesus within Mary did not involve a spiritual sperm joining with an egg from Mary?
Both I believe...you can email him if you'd like.
Marques
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Will do - just don't like bothering him!
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Ray said in his recent talks: 'COMMENT: The spiritual sperm did not descend from heaven, but rather, the SON OF MAN descended from heaven. Do you believe these Scriptures or do you despise these Scriptures?'
Is Ray just affirming the point that Jesus pre-existed with His Father? Or is he also intimating that the conception of Jesus within Mary did not involve a spiritual sperm joining with an egg from Mary?
Hi Myms
Ray is stating that the scriptures say: Jesus did pre-exist before His earthly ministry but He did not pre-exist eternally. The key word there is eternally. Jesus is the beginning of God (the Father, who no one can see or hear) creation. Then the Father through Jesus started creating everything else.
Jesus Himself was sent into Mary, not a sperm.
In Jesus
Anthony
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Hi Anthony
Thank you for your response ... you said:
'Ray is stating that the scriptures say: Jesus did pre-exist before His earthly ministry but He did not pre-exist eternally. The key word there is eternally. Jesus is the beginning of God (the Father, who no one can see or hear) creation. Then the Father through Jesus started creating everything else.'
I have believed this for a long time now. My question was more about his conception. Ray said that Jesus came from Heaven, not a sperm, so I was curious to know whether Ray also believes that Mary's egg was not involved in the conception. That, if you like, Jesus was supernaturally 'implanted' as a foetus within Mary and she was chosen to nurture Him until His birth.
Its possibly not that important, it was just Ray's comment sparked off the question in my head which I'd never considered before. I have posed the question to Ray as suggested above, but as yet have not had a response and don't really expect one, Ray has far too much on his plate.
Myms
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Ray said that Jesus came from Heaven, not a sperm, so I was curious to know whether Ray also believes that Mary's egg was not involved in the conception.
Myms,this is a general statement, so please take no offense.
It never ceases to amaze me how someone has to put the physical ahead of the Spiritual. Why do we in our own small and weak minds think that the Creator of everything that has ever come into existence cannot do what ever He wants or needs. I don't understand why we have to question who and what God is. Without Him, we are nothing. I think to question our Fathers ways is a weak attempt at putting ones self on that carnal throne that we are all to familiar with.
Philippians 2:5
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
1 Peter 2:11
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Peace...Mark
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Whatever we have in mind most of the time; on any subject, that is where we have our treasures stored. There is so much of Scripture that most of us only have the slightest understanding; and that is Scripture that is explained several times in Bibles.
One would do well to pay attention when things of the flesh, carnal thoughts; take up most of their Scripture study time.
Some verses below that prompts this message.
1Sa 2:6-10 (GNB)
6 The LORD kills and restores to life; he sends people to the world of the dead and brings them back again.
7 He makes some people poor and others rich; he humbles some and makes others great.
8 He lifts the poor from the dust and raises the needy from their misery. He makes them companions of princes and puts them in places of honor. The foundations of the earth belong to the LORD; on them he has built the world.
9 "He protects the lives of his faithful people, but the wicked disappear in darkness; a man does not triumph by his own strength.
10 The LORD's enemies will be destroyed; he will thunder against them from heaven. The LORD will judge the whole world; he will give power to his king, he will make his chosen king victorious."
Jer 17:9 (MKJV)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?
Joh 6:62-63(Lamsa NT)
62 What then if you should see the Son of man ascending to the place where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that gives life; the body is of no account; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Rom 8:5-13 (Lamsa NT)
5 For they who are after the flesh, do mind the things of the flesh; but they who are after the Spirit, do mind the things of the Spirit.
6 To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace;
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, because it cannot be.
8 So then, they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit if the Spirit of God truly dwells within you. Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
10 And if Christ is within you, the body is dead because of sin: but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised our LORD Jesus Christ from the dead dwells within you, so he who raised Jesus Christ from the dead will also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells within you.
12 Therefore, my brethren, we are not indebted to the flesh to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you will die: but if you, through the Spirit, subdue the deeds of the body, you shall live.
Rom 8:14 Those who are led by the Spirit of God, are the sons of God.
george. :)
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Hi Anthony
Thank you for your response ... you said:
'Ray is stating that the scriptures say: Jesus did pre-exist before His earthly ministry but He did not pre-exist eternally. The key word there is eternally. Jesus is the beginning of God (the Father, who no one can see or hear) creation. Then the Father through Jesus started creating everything else.'
I have believed this for a long time now. My question was more about his conception. Ray said that Jesus came from Heaven, not a sperm, so I was curious to know whether Ray also believes that Mary's egg was not involved in the conception. That, if you like, Jesus was supernaturally 'implanted' as a foetus within Mary and she was chosen to nurture Him until His birth.
Its possibly not that important, it was just Ray's comment sparked off the question in my head which I'd never considered before. I have posed the question to Ray as suggested above, but as yet have not had a response and don't really expect one, Ray has far too much on his plate.
Myms
All we really have is that "He emptied Himself"(Phil 2:7) and we are not really told how or anything else. If you think on it Jesus is able to appear as anything He wanted i.e. a burning bush. From mans point of view He was still born from Mary to make Him apart of the Judah line. Whether by fetus or sperm once He came out of the birth canal, from mans view He was from Mary. But WE know His origin is from God.
We know sperm carries DNA and only has half of whats needed to make a baby. Jesus already existed and had all that was needed for life. He couldnt have needed anything from mary except a womb. The only thing He didnt have is what He emptied from Himself, so I dont see why her eggs would be needed. Yeah her womb, but not her eggs.
Jesus was still called a man after His resurrection and in the OT, the Angel of the Lord was called a man. I just read over it somewhere in the gospels something that could show Christ was a called a man before He appeared on earth. I cant remember where though and i may be wrong so dont quote on that last one. To me I dont see any reason for Christ to have to come as a sperm.
Just my opinion,
In Jesus,
Anthony
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Thank you Anthony for taking my question seriously, for not judging me for asking it, and for giving a really helpful and thoughtful answer.
Myms :)
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Thank you Anthony for taking my question seriously, for not judging me for asking it, and for giving a really helpful and thoughtful answer.
Myms :)
Anytime. There are many things that God puts into my mind, even the minutest (is that a word?) seemingly unimportant things, yet i am compelled by God to find the answer or that He gives me some kind of understanding on it. Its amazing really because i did ponder that question awhile back and had an answer but i forgot about it and i think this one willl stick with.
Thanks be to God
In Jesus
Anthony
Also i wanted to add---its even the smallest little things that brings, at least me joy, when God shows me a truth. Its wonderful to me.
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2 John 3 There shall be with you grace, kindness, peace, from GOD THE FATHER AND from the Lord Jesus Christ, THE SON OF THE FATHER, in truth and love.
1 John 4;9..... God sent His only begotten Son into the world....(not His only begotten sperm! :D)
Arc
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Anthony & "M",
I also have these tiny questions that occur to me, that's how I came to find BT.
It's very fascinating finding out just "Who and What Jesus Is" Ray has brought back the wonder of my childhood,
that Babylon humanized and distorted!
YSIC,
Brenda
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We may know the who, what, when, where, and even why but sometimes we want to know HOW!
Pro 16:16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!
Antaiwan
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Thank you for your posts. If we're honest I think we all have these 'tiny' questions as we delve deeper into the things of God. The important thing is to keep delving!! It is an exciting journey that we are all on, moving closer & closer to an awesome, glorious, loving Father, and then looking over our shoulder and seeing His hand on our life and the changes He's made to make us more like Him. In the words of the old hymn: The things of earth DO grow strangely dim in the light of His Glory and Grace!
Myms
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10924.0.html
you should read this,my Testimony,No Doubt,please.
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We may know the who, what, when, where, and even why but sometimes we want to know HOW!
Pro 16:16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!
antaiwan,
such a true statement! and, the scripture you posted caused me to meditate on; does the section i posted in blue, say 'how much better is it rather to choose to get understanding, than to get silver'? at first i thought it was saying 'it is better to get the understanding towards being chosen, rather than getting silver'. maybe someone can help me with clarification on this.
thanks bunches antaiwan, and to anyone who may help my understanding.
claudia
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Myms,
I do think our LORD is happy for us to be asking questions which may concern HIS plans, HIS Gospel and HIS kingdom. It is by asking, seeking and knocking that we can come to know HIM who is worth knowing more than anything. To me, GOD is wisdom, knowledge and all power. HE is everything since HE created and continues to create everything. We will never get all the answers but the questions, doubts, and seeking HIS truths is what we need to really know who HE is. Anthony gave you a wonderful answer and all contributors to this post have been helpful.
I sometimes try to understand GOD and HIS SON from a carnal point of view. However, I always move very quickly toward a spiritual seeking and HE always brings me a time of true blessing and fulfillment. Proverbs 16:16 along with all of Proverbs 8 and 9 and especially Proverbs 8:11 reinforces my belief that GOD is all wisdom and that seeking wisdom is better than gold, silver, rubies, or anything else. Proverbs 8:17 says it all, " I love them that love ME, and those that seek me early shall find me. How can we gain wisdom without asking questions?
The Babylonian church does not want us to seek the wisdom of GOD, but to accept their traditions of man. If we all would just exercise that 90% of the brain that we fail to use can we just imagine the amount of wisdom and knowledge available. From my point of view I did not have a clue about our GOD until I started asking the hard questions and Babylon had no answers. Continue to meditate on your questions and concerns and in HIS time our GOD will reveal what you are able to discern.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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antaiwan,
such a true statement! and, the scripture you posted caused me to meditate on; does the section i posted in blue, say 'how much better is it to rather choose to get understanding than to get silver'? at first i thought it was saying 'it is better to get the understanding towards being chosen, rather than getting silver'. maybe someone can help me with clarification on this.
thanks bunches antaiwan, and to anyone who may help my understanding.
claudia
claudia,here are a few different translations.
Pro 16:16
(GW) How much better it is to gain wisdom than gold, and the gaining of understanding should be chosen over silver.
(BBE) How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! and to get knowledge is more to be desired than silver.
(GNB) It is better---much better---to have wisdom and knowledge than gold and silver.
(LITV) How much better to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver.
Peace...Mark
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antaiwan,
such a true statement! and, the scripture you posted caused me to meditate on; does the section i posted in blue, say 'how much better is it to rather choose to get understanding than to get silver'? at first i thought it was saying 'it is better to get the understanding towards being chosen, rather than getting silver'. maybe someone can help me with clarification on this.
thanks bunches antaiwan, and to anyone who may help my understanding.
claudia
claudia,here are a few different translations.
Pro 16:16
(GW) How much better it is to gain wisdom than gold, and the gaining of understanding should be chosen over silver.
(BBE) How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! and to get knowledge is more to be desired than silver.
(GNB) It is better---much better---to have wisdom and knowledge than gold and silver.
(LITV) How much better to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver.
Peace...Mark
Hey Claudia,
Mark posted some great translations!
Here is more:
(CLV) Pro 16:16 To acquire wisdom, how much better than fine gold, And to acquire understanding, more to be chosen than silver!"
(ASV) Pro 16:16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! Yea, to get understanding is rather to be chosen than silver.
Understanding is important!
Hope this helps
Antaiwan
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mark & antaiwan,
thank you both for helping me with understanding this scripture, by showing it in different translations.
claudia
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Hi C
(MKJV) How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is rather to be chosen than silver!
Arc
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Heres another proverb i love and that can be applied
Pr 25:2 - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
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Ponder this Scripture for a minute while searching for wisdom.
Ecc 1: 17-18 (CLV)
17 Then I applied my heart to know wisdom, As well as to know about raving and frivolity; I realize that even this, it is a grazing on wind."
18 For in much wisdom is much vexation, And he who adds knowledge adds pain."
george.
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Ponder this Scripture
Hello George
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdomH2451 { From H2449; wisdom (in a good sense): - skillful, wisdom, wisely, wit. } is much grief:H3708 { From H3707; vexation: - anger, angry, grief, indignation, provocation, provoking, X sore, sorrow, spite, wrath. } and he that increaseth knowledgeH1847 { From H3045; knowledge: - cunning, [ig-] norantly, know(-ledge), [un-] awares (wittingly).} increaseth sorrow.H4341 { From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow. }
Sounds to me like :
Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall cut you off, and when they shall reproach you and shall cast out your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man.
Joh 17:14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Mat 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the person who endures to the end will be saved.
Arc
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Ponder this Scripture
Hello George
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdomH2451 { From H2449; wisdom (in a good sense): - skillful, wisdom, wisely, wit. } is much grief:H3708 { From H3707; vexation: - anger, angry, grief, indignation, provocation, provoking, X sore, sorrow, spite, wrath. } and he that increaseth knowledgeH1847 { From H3045; knowledge: - cunning, [ig-] norantly, know(-ledge), [un-] awares (wittingly).} increaseth sorrow.H4341 { From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow. }
Sounds to me like :
Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall cut you off, and when they shall reproach you and shall cast out your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man.
Joh 17:14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Mat 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the person who endures to the end will be saved.
Arc
Exactly my thoughts too Arc. Good find, which also sounds like to me Matt 13:45
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it".
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Arc & AK4,
Great pondering, those Scriptures are right on point about why more wisdom bring grief & sorrow. Knowing what must happen yet not able to communicate this to everyone around, is both humbling and cause for wonder at what our Creator GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ are doing for all humanity.
The verses below also show that when one is given wisdom; you should not hide it, but instead let it shine forth. By doing this we are bound to be shot at from all sides, because The world and the beast in us does not want to confess that all they have is given From GOD and nothing we see; has any permanence beyond the time appointed By GOD.
Makes it doubly important to know that our strength comes from Jesus Christ; who only Has All Power And Glory In any place we live and breathe and even beyond into everything Spiritual.
Mat 5:15 (KJV)
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Luk 11:33 (KJV)
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
2Co 4: 1-18 (GNB)
1 God in his mercy has given us this work to do, and so we do not become discouraged.
2 We put aside all secret and shameful deeds; we do not act with deceit, nor do we falsify the word of God. In the full light of truth we live in God's sight and try to commend ourselves to everyone's good conscience.
3 For if the gospel we preach is hidden, it is hidden only from those who are being lost. (John 3-16-17)
4 They do not believe, because their minds have been kept in the dark by the (evil god (?) of this world) who blinds?. He keeps them from seeing the light shining on them, the light that comes from the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
contrast with GNB v4 above
2Co 4:4 (Lamsa NT)
To those in this world whose minds have been blinded by God, because they did not believe, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the likeness of God, should shine on them.
5 For it is not ourselves that we preach; we preach Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 The God who said, "Out of darkness the light shall shine!" is the same God who made his light shine in our hearts, to bring us the knowledge of God's glory shining in the face of Christ.
7 Yet we who have this spiritual treasure are like common clay pots, in order to show that the supreme power belongs to God, not to us.
8 We are often troubled, but not crushed; sometimes in doubt, but never in despair;
9 there are many enemies, but we are never without a friend; and though badly hurt at times, we are not destroyed.
10 At all times we carry in our mortal bodies the death of Jesus, so that his life also may be seen in our bodies.
11 Throughout our lives we are always in danger of death for Jesus' sake, in order that his life may be seen in this mortal body of ours.
12 This means that death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13 The scripture says, "I spoke because I believed." In the same spirit of faith we also speak because we believe.
14 We know that God, who raised the Lord Jesus to life, will also raise us up with Jesus and take us, together with you, into his presence.
15 All this is for your sake; and as God's grace reaches more and more people, they will offer to the glory of God more prayers of thanksgiving.
16 For this reason we never become discouraged. Even though our physical being is gradually decaying, yet our spiritual being is renewed day after day.
17 And this small and temporary trouble we suffer will bring us a tremendous and eternal glory, much greater than the trouble.
18 For we fix our attention, not on things that are seen, but on things that are unseen. What can be seen lasts only for a time, but what cannot be seen lasts forever.
contrast with v18 above
2Co 4:18 (Rotherham)
So long as we are not looking out for the visible things, but for the invisible; for, the visible things, are temporary, whereas, the invisible, are age-abiding.
george. :)
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4 They do not believe, because their minds have been kept in the dark by the (evil god (?) of this world) who blinds?. He keeps them from seeing the light shining on them, the light that comes from the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
contrast with GNB v4 above
2Co 4:4 (Lamsa NT)
To those in this world whose minds have been blinded by God, because they did not believe, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the likeness of God, should shine on them.
Hey George,
Is this translation interpreting that God blinded people BECAUSE they did not believe and not Satan blinds those so they CAN'T believe? I'm asking because I notice the capitalized 'God' when most other translations use 'god' as attributed to Satan.
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them. [CLV]
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance e of the glad-message of the glory of the Christ - who is the image of God. [REB]
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God. [RSV]
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; [YLT]
Marques
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4 They do not believe, because their minds have been kept in the dark by the (evil god (?) of this world) who blinds?. He keeps them from seeing the light shining on them, the light that comes from the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
contrast with GNB v4 above
2Co 4:4 (Lamsa NT)
To those in this world whose minds have been blinded by God, because they did not believe, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the likeness of God, should shine on them.
Hey George,
Is this translation interpreting that God blinded people BECAUSE they did not believe and not Satan blinds those so they CAN'T believe? I'm asking because I notice the capitalized 'God' when most other translations use 'god' as attributed to Satan.
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them. [CLV]
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance e of the glad-message of the glory of the Christ - who is the image of God. [REB]
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God. [RSV]
2 Cor 4:4 ...the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; [YLT]
Marques
Hi Marques,
I seem to remember a discussion a while back on the subject of God Blinding; while Satan Lies or confuses. Will do a more indepth research and get back with you. But to the question; yes it does seem to say exactly this in Lamsa NT plainly and in other translations not so plainly, see below..
2Co 4:4 (Murdock)
to them whose minds the God of this world hath blinded, in order that they might not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of the Messiah (who is the likeness of God) should dawn upon them.
2Co 4:4 (TCNT) 20th Century 1904
Men whose minds have been blinded by the God of this Age, unbelievers as they are, so that the light from the Good News of the glory of the Christ, who is the very incarnation of God, should not shine for them.
2Co 4:4 (Geneva Bible) 1587
In whom the God of this world hath blinded the mindes, that is, of the infidels, that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ, which is the image of God, should not shine vnto them.
george. ??? ??? ???
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Something to ponder...
Exo 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Mat 13:15 for MADE GROSS was the heart of this people, and with the ears they heard heavily, and their eyes they did close, lest they might see with the eyes, and with the ears might hear, and with the heart understand, and turn back, and I might heal them.
Mat 13:16 `And happy are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear,
Psa 146:8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:
2Ti 2:25 He must speak in a gentle tone when correcting the errors of opponents, in the hope (We take comfort in the knowledge, trust and dependence on the fact ) that God will at last give them repentance, for them to come to a full knowledge of the truth
2Ti 2:26 and recover sober-mindedness and freedom from the Devil's snare, though they are now entrapped by him to do his will.
It is the Sovereign plan of God that any be blinded, lost or experience the sore consequences of rebellion, disobedience and blindness. First the Natural then the Spiritual
Ref : TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD
Quote..“The sequence of God’s plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.”…unquote
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him. Instead, their thoughts turned to worthless things, and their ignorant hearts were darkened.
This describes carnal, literal stupidity that deems itself wise, holier-than-thou, better than, higher than, more superior than anyone else.
God’s Mercy is for the self-righteous not the righteous!
Rom 1:28 Furthermore, because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the full knowledge of God, God gave them over to degraded minds to perform acts that should not be done.
Rom 1:29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, quarreling, deceit, and viciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, God-haters, haughty, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to their parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Although they know God's just requirement-that those who practice such things deserve to die-they not only do these things but even applaud others who practice them.
There is so much to repent of. Where sin abounds, and sin does abound, it is our Hope and Confidence in the certainty that Gods Grace does abound much more.
Rom 5:20 Now Law was brought in later on, so that transgression might increase. But where sin increased, grace has overflowed;
Rom 5:21 in order that as sin has exercised kingly sway in inflicting death, so grace, too, may exercise kingly sway in bestowing a righteousness which results in the Life of the Ages through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Mat 19:11 "It is not every man," He replied, "who can receive this teaching, but only those on whom the grace has been bestowed.
No one can repent without the Goodness of God and through the Grace of God. The honorable attitude towards our enemies is the confidence in God that through His Mercy and Goodness
Isa 29:24 Those who erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and those who murmured shall learn doctrine.
Arc
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Hi Marques,
I seem to remember a discussion a while back on the subject of God Blinding; while Satan Lies or confuses. Will do a more indepth research and get back with you. But to the question; yes it does seem to say exactly this in Lamsa NT plainly and in other translations not so plainly, see below..
2Co 4:4 (Murdock)
to them whose minds the God of this world hath blinded, in order that they might not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of the Messiah (who is the likeness of God) should dawn upon them.
2Co 4:4 (TCNT) 20th Century 1904
Men whose minds have been blinded by the God of this Age, unbelievers as they are, so that the light from the Good News of the glory of the Christ, who is the very incarnation of God, should not shine for them.
2Co 4:4 (Geneva Bible) 1587
In whom the God of this world hath blinded the mindes, that is, of the infidels, that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ, which is the image of God, should not shine vnto them.
george. ??? ??? ???
I think a mistake that a few of these translators have done is believe 'god' is a name instead of a title. Satan is given the title 'god' [though with a lower case 'g'] as he is the head of all the nations, in this present wicked age [Gal 1:4]. Ray explains how it is Satan who blinds the world to prevent them from seeing the true gospel. Otherwise, they would see.
It's silly to think one is blinded BECAUSE they didn't see...that makes no sense, that person wouldn't need to be blinded. One is blinded to prevent them from seeing, 'lest [or otherwise] the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.'
Excerpt from LOF #9 (http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html):
Let’s notice a few things overlooked by most Sunday school teachers (and most of the world’s greatest theologians as well). Ready? Are you sure? Okay, here goes: ALL THE NATIONS OF THE ENTIRE WORLD BELONG TO SATAN THE DEVIL!!! Heaven and Earth are God’s possessions, however, God has delegated the nations to Satan. Satan could not offer all these kingdoms of the world to Jesus if he did not possess them to offer them in the first place. They are Satan’s ignorant kingdoms:
"In whom the god [SATAN] of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the Image of God, should shine unto them" (II Cor. 4:4).
Oh, that the Church would believe the Scriptures. Why are there billions who "believe not" in the world? Is it because they CHOOSE to believe not? That’s what well-intentioned Christians tell me all the time. "Ray! these people CHOOSE to go to hell." How, pray tell, can they "choose" to go to hell, when they "believe NOT" in the first place. They don’t "make a choice," the choice is made for them, because they "believe not." And JUST WHY do they "believe not?"
Will you insist on the Church’s answer or will you humbly accept God’s answer? "In whom the God of this world has BLINDED the minds of them that believe NOT…" That’s why they can’t "see" to make the right choice—THEY ARE BLIND!
Now then, what would happen if God were to REMOVE that Satanic blindness? Would they STILL choose to reject Jesus Christ and His gospel? We don’t need to speculate, let’s read it:
"In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, LEST the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, SHOULD SHINE UNTO THEM" (II Cor. 4:4).
When the deception is taken away, people will understand. When the blindness is taking away, people will see the truth.
Next, notice what Jesus Himself says would happen if this Satanic blindness were removed:
"For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed [Why? Why are their eyes ‘closed?’ Because, "the god of this world has BLINDED… them…" That’s why] lest at ANY TIME they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, and I should HEAL them" (Matt. 13:15).
This is not rocket science. When Satan blinds the minds of people, they "believe NOT." And they cannot repent, be converted, or saved until the blindness is lifted and they are given a knowledge of the Truth. But is it God’s will that such a thing will ever happen?
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savour; Who WILL have all men to be saved [and just how might that come about?], and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" (I Tim. 2:4).
But doesn’t the Church teach that God is the Saviour of "believers ONLY?" Don’t the non-believers GO TO HELL? Let’s read it:
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN… [but doesn’t that mean believers exclusively? No…] …of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe" (I Tim. 4:10).
Will everyone reading this last paragraph now believe God, and believe these Scriptures, and turn to God and be saved, seeing how simple and clear these verses are. NO! Why not? Because Satan has SPIRITUALLY BLINDED their eyes. True, they can read the words, but they cannot see the Truth in their heart, mind, and spirit. Jesus said,
"…the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE" (John 6:63).
No one can "see" words of "spirit" with eyes of flesh. If you are beginning to see the big picture of God’s salvation of all, and rejoice in that Truth, then God has given you "spiritual eyes to see spiritual words."
We coin the phrase, "In God We Trust," and parrot the phrase, "One Nation Under God," but how can that be, seeing that we have just read in the Scriptures that all the kingdoms of this world belong to Satan who has blinded the minds of these same nations. Now surely someone will say, "But Mr. Smith, Satan has blinded the minds of only those who ‘believe not.’" Well, if they are not blinded, then they will believe the above Scriptures that say Satan is the god of this world and Satan owns all the nations of this world! But the so-called "believers" don’t really "believe" the Scriptures that I just quoted, DO THEY? No, of course they don’t. Do you see how God’s Word is a "two-edged sword?"
Yes, ultimately we know it is God's intention that most of humanity not know His Will and Plan, but Satan is delegated to blind the nations and 'deceive the whole world' [Rev 12:9]. As a matter of fact, this passage from Rev 12:9 is an exact spiritual match to the one in 2 Cor 4:4...but it looks as though a few translators missed that one.
With translations, it's not only a matter of translating one word or phrase into an English equivalent (which is impossible to do 100%). It's also a matter of interpretation, as in an UNDERSTANDING of what is being said. Those translations that implied that God blinds people BECAUSE they don't see do not understand that verse at all. It's Satan (by the Intentions of GOD) who blinds people to CAUSE them not to see.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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A short story.
2 Corinthians 4:4
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Timothy 2:26
26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Ephesians 2:2
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
John 12:31
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
John 1:12
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Ephesians 2:8–9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Peace...Mark
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This excerpt is one reason why that question came to me. i am not defending any position, just trying for clarification. What exactly did does this statement mean, would appreciate any follow-up.
Excerpt from: WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . Nashville Conference 2007
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384
A woman sent me an email and said, 'why didn’t He just create a whole bunch of Jesus’? Why do we have to go through all of this to become sons of God... pain, suffering, growing old, disease, losing loved ones, wars, torture, why? If all He had to do was just make a bunch of Jesus’ then He would have all the sons He wants.'
There is something about this creation that ties in with the spirit. We read it in Hebrews; about the tabernacle, the sanctuary and the Holy place. Christ didn’t just become what symbolizes the Holy place here on earth. But in heaven He entered the Holy of Holies. In heaven! That’s where He made remission for our sins, before the Father. Not just on the cross, but before the Father in heaven. They are types and I’m not saying God shows us all this stuff. But I think He is showing us that it is there. It is there, you just have to believe the scripture.
Now what is the grandest of all types of the heavenly, that has come to earth? The ultimate supreme likeness of something heavenly is Jesus Christ. This is not strictly, purely a earthly creation or invention. So whatever exist in heaven is personified in this Man, Jesus Christ. Now Jesus is the only one who is now in the image of God and we read in Hebrews.
Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person…
I think the Concordant uses the word, assumption.
…express image of His assumption, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
This is speaking about Jesus Christ, He is the image of His Father.
Somebody ask me if the god of this world could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived.
2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.
So Jesus Christ is the personification of God. He’s the only one that is totally in His image. But then in Rom. 8, again we have the difference between the angels and what God is putting us through.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinates to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first creation (born).
No, first BORN. Remember when we’re born into the family of God, God will be our Daddy. You know like it says in that movie, ‘It’s good to be the king.’ We’re not just working there, we’re not adopted, we’re BORN! God is our Daddy. This is heavy duty stuff, but this is a process, it has not happened yet.
george. ???
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This excerpt is one reason why that question came to me. i am not defending any position, just trying for clarification. What exactly did does this statement mean, would appreciate any follow-up.
It doesn't seem to be anymore than a random thought to me. Ray says someone asked him if the 'god' referred to in that passage is referring to the God or Satan. He says he considered if for a while...I'm pretty sure if he felt otherwise, he would have edited the LOF #9 paper.
We all know that ultimately it is God who blinds the masses of humanity to His Will and Plan. Satan is the tool used to do so...the axe in the Lord's hand (similar to the King of Assyria in Isa 10:15). There are 2 ways to tell that 2 Cor 4:4 is talking about Satan:
1. 'god of this world' - As Ray points out from scriptures, Satan is over the heads of the nations [Matt 4:9 & Luke 4:6]. This present wicked age [Gal 1:4] is Satan's kingdom or domain...Christ says so Himself by stating His kingdom is NOT of this world [John 18:36]
Satan is the prince [Gk. ruler, leader, commander] of this world/age:
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged
2. 'lest (aka 'otherwise') the glory of the gospel of Christ would shine upon them' - As Christ teaches, a kingdom cannot be divided against itself [Matt 12:25, Mark 3:24, Luke 11:17]. God does not contend with Himself but has rather set up Satan to be His adversary [def. 'to oppose'] and Has delegated the nations to Satan to also oppose the Will of God.
Satan is the ruler of darkness [Eph 6:12-13] that opposes the light of Christ [Eph 5:4].
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Some more thoughts on those that despise the scriptures:
We have seen and still see the various stages that the Church has and is going through:
Positive confession
The prosperity gospel
Being slain in the Spirit
The holy laughter movement
The Toronto blessing
…and more....
Is the latest the HOP movement? It took me a while to cotton on what HOP stood for: House of Prayer. Nothing wrong with that perhaps, but its what is happening in these Houses of Prayer being set up in churches across America and now in the UK that is perhaps of interest (signs of the times?).
Harp and Bowl: a style of worship that involves antiphonal singing. It is based on the way King David worshiped, the reality is alarming! Find the link to the International House of Prayer University (I HOP U) in Kansas for a little taste of ‘Davidic worship’ being gradually hyped up with louder and louder music and shouts of ‘Fire, Fire’!!. Linked to this ‘new move’ of God’s Spirit and the return to a Davidic style of worship is the belief that the Nation of Israel is still God’s covenant nation and that they will all be saved before the return of Christ. Such that as part of this present move of returning to the HEBRAIC ROOT of the Church, yamakas, prayer scarves for ladies and prayer shawls for men are finding there way into the church. What’s next one wonders.