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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Hellisfake on August 29, 2016, 12:35:34 PM
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Hello friends! I got a question: We are commanded to pull out from Babylon churches and that system, but is it always so for all selected, I mean, is it always that case that you have to go that route, or can we find one example of someone who God gave the sound faith right away?
Because if it is so that God always takes us through Babylon, what should we do with our children? Encourage them to go to Babylon's daughters? for if they do not, they will not be among those selected?
It may already exist another thread on the subject, please get me that link
God bless:)
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I don't think you need to encourage your children to go to Babylons daughters, as you put it. Your children were already born into Babylon.
Is that right?
Unless you think Babylon,( the 'her' in 'come out of her' )is just the Christian church and not the church of the carnal nature which we are all born into whether we're Christians or Buddhists or Muslims etc. etc.
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I've often thought of that very thing,
thanks Largeli
Terry
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I don't think you need to encourage your children to go to Babylons daughters, as you put it. Your children were already born into Babylon.
Is that right?
Unless you think Babylon,( the 'her' in 'come out of her' )is just the Christian church and not the church of the carnal nature which we are all born into whether we're Christians or Buddhists or Muslims etc. etc.
I allways thought that Babylon was the religious system in the world. But why dosent the Lord reveals the these truths as we can read here on this site, when he first must meet the Lord,
it seems that one must go through a time in the traditional church first, before he revels this truth about salvation of all, and free will and so on...?
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I'm thinking that the NT Scripture is speaking of Babylon as the church system in particular, but I also think of Babylon as the whole worldly system in general too, as it has the proclivity towards carnality. We do have to have an experience of good and evil in this life, and that comes about from living deceived along with the rest of the world about the truth and the real carnal condition of things.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another
I don't think I would put my children in a system that I understand to be filled with inaccuracies with the assumption that might be the only way they can become God's chosen... the elect were already determined from the beginning and there really is no way to bring that about or prevent it anyway. I think our responsibility is to teach our children the truth, on a continual basic the best you can.
Mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Prov 22:6 "Raise up your children according to the way" That's God's command to us all. That way if and when they do stray they'll always Know the way home. They'll always be welcome when they choose to come home. God's grace through our Lord Jesus
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There is one name given by which men must be saved. It is not Buddha, Muhammad or Shiva. Jesus is Lord. Nobody comes to the Father except by Him. It's neither unfair nor outside the ways and means of God to choose from among THE CHURCH, HIS CHURCH.
Hellisfake, teach your own children. Give them what they can bear when they can bear it, and be patient. They are teaching you too. We're told to give ANSWER and NOBODY asks better questions better than children. NOBODY. You cannot give them either faith or a spiritual mind. Whatever you tell them--even the truth--they will not understand until they do. They'll have to live. Life includes failure. Failure is not eternal. Jesus is Lord. That's the way it works.
Who knows but when they have passed through the fire they might outstrip you in every virtue, understanding, and aspect of the fruit of His Spirit. Any good parent would hope for that, I'd think.
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Why dosent the Lord reveals the these truths as we can read here on this site, when he first must meet the Lord,
it seems that one must go through a time in the traditional church first, before he revels this truth about salvation of all, and free will and so on...?
Again, because that's the way it works. Besides, He DID reveal the truths about the salvation of all and the sovereignty of God. How else would we know them, if He hadn't? This isn't some sort of "gnosticism". The truth about these things has been obscured, both spiritually and literally. We've read over these same passages (most of us, I'm guessing) without ever seeing them, yet there they are in plain sight. The miracle is in having our eyes UN-CLOSED, not in gaining some special knowledge.
The rest, concerning the Kingdom, He taught in parables with the express intention of hiding the truths and only revealing them to those the Father gave him. He never intended to "reveal these truths" to everybody saying unto Him "Lord, Lord."
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Hellisfake -
Interesting question:
Hello friends! I got a question: We are commanded to pull out from Babylon churches and that system, but is it always so for all selected, I mean, is it always that case that you have to go that route, or can we find one example of someone who God gave the sound faith right away?
Because if it is so that God always takes us through Babylon, what should we do with our children? Encourage them to go to Babylon's daughters? for if they do not, they will not be among those selected?
It may already exist another thread on the subject, please get me that link
God bless:)
I am not not sure to what kingdom we are born into during this Age of Grace.
We are all born, and then we are educated in our societies which may or may not have any beliefs in God.
So let us assume that we are all born into The Kingdom of God.
What happened after we were born?
We were taught by our fathers and mothers and the society we live in. We followed and did what our parents did and taught us to do.
Then He drags us out of our society and starts to reveal His Truths to us by His Holy Spirit.
He Commands us to come out of Babylon.
Ray taught that we left our first love, and we need to put our first love back into its Divine position to Love and Obey Our Heavenly Father; and I have a difficulty in understanding when I left my first Love - as I know since He dragged me Out, there has not been a day that I have not focused on Him, to learn His Truths and do Right and to please Him.
So, I do not know for sure, when I left my first Love - perhaps, it was shortly after I was born, as I did not know anything, and I was brought up by my parents into living how my society lived.
In other words, perhaps, I was born into The Kingdom of God, then I left it because I never knew any better and obeyed Babylon. Then, He heard my cries because of my affliction in Babylon (which He burdened me to cry out to Him), and He dragged me back to Himself (back to my first Love).
I am not trying to teach here - I am trying to understand how we all leave our first love, and when we realise this, and how we get back to our first Love.
I look at this as something fundamental, in that it is about who we choose to obey (or if you will, worship) - if we choose to obey His Commandments and do what He says, we cannot also obey Babylon.
Babylon is in the world, and is the world, and it is governed by mankind.
Some have stated that Babylon means 'baby long time' - but I have not found any confirmation on this.
Perhaps His mature Sons and Daughters must now leave the doctrines of The Old Covenant behind them, and enter into His Rest in The New Covenant, as non-Babylonians as His Called Out Called Out People.
His Children are in the world but not of the world.
The world is ruled by evil - and Satan is evil.
He rules in His Love - as above all else, God is Love.
1 John 5:8 (KJV):
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
I hope this helps.
Kind Regards.
George
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Ray taught that we left our first love, and we need to put our first love back into its Divine position to Love and Obey Our Heavenly Father; and I have a difficulty in understanding when I left my first Love - as I know since He dragged me Out, there has not been a day that I have not focused on Him, to learn His Truths and do Right and to please Him.
So, I do not know for sure, when I left my first Love - perhaps, it was shortly after I was born, as I did not know anything, and I was brought up by my parents into living how my society lived.
In other words, perhaps, I was born into The Kingdom of God, then I left it because I never knew any better and obeyed Babylon. Then, He heard my cries because of my affliction in Babylon (which He burdened me to cry out to Him), and He dragged me back to Himself (back to my first Love).
I am not trying to teach here - I am trying to understand how we all leave our first love, and when we realise this, and how we get back to our first Love.
I look at this as something fundamental, in that it is about who we choose to obey (or if you will, worship) - if we choose to obey His Commandments and do what He says, we cannot also obey Babylon.
Hi George, what/when is the 'first love' we have of God? I would say it's when we learned, for most of us that was in the church, who God really is. The church does present the gospel message about Christ coming in the flesh and dying as our Savior... not saying they have the details right, but it's usually in church that we first really learn about God. Most of us, I would think, even declared our love of God by a water baptism and joining that church as a member. That I believe is our 'first love.'
Now the falling from that first love comes when we begin to learn and obey the doctrine of men, taught to us in the church... I guess some don't even stay in church very long, but when they go back out into a worldly life or whatever, that is when we fall from that first love. So if you see what I'm saying it's when we lose that first, almost childish, love and adoration for God.
Now if you think you never lost that love, well then you must not believed you were ever deceived as the whole world is (Rev 12:9) and that's another story. But like the prodigal son we all leave our first love of God, one way or another we are pulled down, by serving the church or in some way serving our own carnal desires in the world... that is building our false spiritual house upon the shifting sands.
Mat 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
v. 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
But if we are chosen, we do not remain deceived, and all those false doctrines come falling down and then by the Spirit indwelling we build our house on the solid foundation of The Rock and then nothing can shake us.
Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
v. 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
Here is from the LoF 14. 'The Beast Within' where Ray taught on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ------------------------
What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.
v
Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:
"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).
Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:
"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).
v
We learned that leaving one’s first love is falling from love. But there’s more. Whatever one puts in place of true worship not only displaces us from our first love, but it also causes us to FALL FROM GRACE!
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled gain with the yoked of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, [sounds important…] that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you NOTHING. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do THE WHOLE LAW [Abraham was circumcised, but Moses taught it AS A LAW that HAD to be obeyed]. Christ is become of NO EFFECT unto you, whosoever of you are [Gk: ‘are’ should be‘attempt to be’] justified by LAW; ye [‘ALL of you’] are FALLEN FROM GRACE."
v
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.
If you insist that: "Ray! I don’t see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
v
You all know the parable. The son of a rich man wanted his inheritance NOW. And so he went into a far country and wasted his inheritance with riotous living—doing what seemed RIGHT in his own eyes. Enjoying life, having a good time. When he was physically and morally broke, he took a job slopping the pigs, and finally eating the slop of the pigs, himself. His selfish, carnal, house built on shifting sands FELL! "And GREAT was the fall thereof."
He had "left his first love" of his Father who obliged him in his "free will" decision to pursue his own happiness. But now, with his face in the watery slop of the pigs, he sees his reflection looking back at him—a BEAST—a man of great sin—a son in the state of spiritual perdition. What will he do?
He said:
"I will arise and go to my Father, and will say unto Him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before Thee, And am no more worthy to be called Thy son: make me as one of Thy hired servants… But the Father said to His servant, Bring forth the best robe [‘…for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints,' Rev. 19:8], and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand…
…[‘And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt,’ (Gen. 41:42-43). "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me {second chariot from Christ}…" (Rev. 3:21), "And to he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations {ALL of them, not just Egypt}]…
…For this my son was [spiritually] DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST [pollumi—lost, destroyed, vanished] and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15-11-24).
v
Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to ‘remember from whence we are FALLEN…’ Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:
"Charity [Old English for ‘love’] never fails…" (I Cor. 13:08).
Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:08 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.
Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.
v
"And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner? Whomsoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will GRIND HIM TO POWDER."
When we fall on the Stone (Jesus), we are broken. Or as John tells us in Revelation,
"And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH…" (Rev. 13:3).
Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God’s Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.
But here’s the good news concerning this stone. If we are among the chosen that overcome, then the Stone falls ON US, and our spiritual house built upon the sand comes crashing down. And when Jesus falls on us, He GRINDS US [along with all of our idols of the heart] TO POWDER!
v
THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!
But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).
In conclusion:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet… And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].
And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],
FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).
Truly: "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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There is one name given by which men must be saved. It is not Buddha, Muhammad or Shiva. Jesus is Lord. Nobody comes to the Father except by Him. It's neither unfair nor outside the ways and means of God to choose from among THE CHURCH, HIS CHURCH.
Dave just to clarify... Are you saying that the Father only chooses His elect from among the mainstream, false religion, Christian church? Meaning that the Father does not choose people to 'come out of' other false religions and into a true knowledge of the One True God?
Not saying I disagree, but just wanting clarification.
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Kat -
Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly; and I will re-read Ray's 'The Beast Within':
Ray taught that we left our first love, and we need to put our first love back into its Divine position to Love and Obey Our Heavenly Father; and I have a difficulty in understanding when I left my first Love - as I know since He dragged me Out, there has not been a day that I have not focused on Him, to learn His Truths and do Right and to please Him.
So, I do not know for sure, when I left my first Love - perhaps, it was shortly after I was born, as I did not know anything, and I was brought up by my parents into living how my society lived.
In other words, perhaps, I was born into The Kingdom of God, then I left it because I never knew any better and obeyed Babylon. Then, He heard my cries because of my affliction in Babylon (which He burdened me to cry out to Him), and He dragged me back to Himself (back to my first Love).
I am not trying to teach here - I am trying to understand how we all leave our first love, and when we realise this, and how we get back to our first Love.
I look at this as something fundamental, in that it is about who we choose to obey (or if you will, worship) - if we choose to obey His Commandments and do what He says, we cannot also obey Babylon.
Hi George, what/when is the 'first love' we have of God? I would say it's when we learned, for most of us that was in the church, who God really is. The church does present the gospel message about Christ coming in the flesh and dying as our Savior... not saying they have the details right, but it's usually in church that we first really learn about God. Most of us, I would think, even declared our love of God by a water baptism and joining that church as a member. That I believe is our 'first love.'
Now the falling from that first love comes when we begin to learn and obey the doctrine of men, taught to us in the church... I guess some don't even stay in church very long, but when they go back out into a worldly life or whatever, that is when we fall from that first love. So if you see what I'm saying it's when we lose that first, almost childish, love and adoration for God.
Now if you think you never lost that love, well then you must not believed you were ever deceived as the whole world is (Rev 12:9) and that's another story. But like the prodigal son we all leave our first love of God, one way or another we are pulled down, by serving the church or in some way serving our own carnal desires in the world... that is building our false spiritual house upon the shifting sands.
Mat 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
v. 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
But if we are chosen, we do not remain deceived, and all those false doctrines come falling down and then by the Spirit indwelling we build our house on the solid foundation of The Rock and then nothing can shake us.
Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
v. 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
Here is from the LoF 14. 'The Beast Within' where Ray taught on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ------------------------
What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.
v
Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:
"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).
Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:
"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).
v
We learned that leaving one’s first love is falling from love. But there’s more. Whatever one puts in place of true worship not only displaces us from our first love, but it also causes us to FALL FROM GRACE!
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled gain with the yoked of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, [sounds important…] that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you NOTHING. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do THE WHOLE LAW [Abraham was circumcised, but Moses taught it AS A LAW that HAD to be obeyed]. Christ is become of NO EFFECT unto you, whosoever of you are [Gk: ‘are’ should be‘attempt to be’] justified by LAW; ye [‘ALL of you’] are FALLEN FROM GRACE."
v
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.
If you insist that: "Ray! I don’t see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
v
You all know the parable. The son of a rich man wanted his inheritance NOW. And so he went into a far country and wasted his inheritance with riotous living—doing what seemed RIGHT in his own eyes. Enjoying life, having a good time. When he was physically and morally broke, he took a job slopping the pigs, and finally eating the slop of the pigs, himself. His selfish, carnal, house built on shifting sands FELL! "And GREAT was the fall thereof."
He had "left his first love" of his Father who obliged him in his "free will" decision to pursue his own happiness. But now, with his face in the watery slop of the pigs, he sees his reflection looking back at him—a BEAST—a man of great sin—a son in the state of spiritual perdition. What will he do?
He said:
"I will arise and go to my Father, and will say unto Him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before Thee, And am no more worthy to be called Thy son: make me as one of Thy hired servants… But the Father said to His servant, Bring forth the best robe [‘…for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints,' Rev. 19:8], and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand…
…[‘And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt,’ (Gen. 41:42-43). "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me {second chariot from Christ}…" (Rev. 3:21), "And to he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations {ALL of them, not just Egypt}]…
…For this my son was [spiritually] DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST [pollumi—lost, destroyed, vanished] and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15-11-24).
v
Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to ‘remember from whence we are FALLEN…’ Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:
"Charity [Old English for ‘love’] never fails…" (I Cor. 13:08).
Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:08 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.
Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.
v
"And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner? Whomsoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will GRIND HIM TO POWDER."
When we fall on the Stone (Jesus), we are broken. Or as John tells us in Revelation,
"And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH…" (Rev. 13:3).
Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God’s Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.
But here’s the good news concerning this stone. If we are among the chosen that overcome, then the Stone falls ON US, and our spiritual house built upon the sand comes crashing down. And when Jesus falls on us, He GRINDS US [along with all of our idols of the heart] TO POWDER!
v
THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!
But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).
In conclusion:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet… And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].
And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],
FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).
Truly: "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
As God is my Witness, I can only look back at to what happened to me - and I know Ray and a lot on this Forum came out of the WGOC.
Since I can remember I have always been aware of Almighty God.
I lived as I was taught until I got absolutely fed up with the behaviour of some and most members of my family.
I went on holiday, and when I came back I got sick, and the more I tried to go back to work, the more sick I got. During these five days, something happened to me.
I then gave up all things worldly and started reading The Scriptures, and I knew that all the Christian churches were full of hypocrisy and false teachers and members - so it never entered my heart to go to any church.
One of my brothers suggested that I should go to a local AOG Pentecostal church. I did not want to go, but he said what have you got to lose, there are others there like you.
So I went, and I lasted a year, and obeyed their teachings, was baptised in water, spoke in tongues, cast out demons, led the youth groups, taped the teachings, went to home groups, etc - and I discovered that there was no transparency and no trust amongst the elders and the members - it was as if they just wanted to belong somewhere to be comfortable.
When I left one of the elders wanted me to go with him and help him with his new ministry outside of that church. I was going to go with him, but on three separate occasions I had a sense of gloom and heaviness in my heart - which I took to mean that Our Heavenly Father did not want me to partake of this elder's new ministry.
So I was in the wilderness for many years, and I listened to Derek Prince, which at the time I accepted was an anointed teacher from On High.
I kept studying The Scriptures throughout and The Lord was always at the centre of my being, desires, etc.
Then, I was lead to Bible Truths, and I listened to all of Ray's videos and audios, and read all his papers, and most of his emails, and the Posts on the Forum.
I discovered that everything I was taught in the AOG PC was false; 'speaking in tongues' was a demonic teaching, so I stopped this, and persuaded the others who became believers to do the same (including two of my sisters and my wife), 'the beast' was me sitting on His Throne, 'all will be saved, each in His Time of His Choosing', 'His Elect are being judged now', etc.
So I do not know at what part of my life 'I fell away' from 'my first love' - as it has never entered my heart and mind to leave Him at any time - as when He reached out to me - I gave up everything for Him - to the amazement of all my family and those close to me.
Maybe, you can see from the above summary, when I fell away from my first love - as I cannot quite see it - the only possible time is when I accepted the false teachings of the AOG PC and Derek Prince's false teachings.
Kind Regards.
George
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There is one name given by which men must be saved. It is not Buddha, Muhammad or Shiva. Jesus is Lord. Nobody comes to the Father except by Him. It's neither unfair nor outside the ways and means of God to choose from among THE CHURCH, HIS CHURCH.
Dave just to clarify... Are you saying that the Father only chooses His elect from among the mainstream, false religion, Christian church? Meaning that the Father does not choose people to 'come out of' other false religions and into a true knowledge of the One True God?
Not saying I disagree, but just wanting clarification.
Simply...unless a man's faith is in vain (literally, fake), then yes those chosen of God are chosen out of/from among believers in Christ. The MANY say unto Him, "Lord, Lord..." The MANY come in His name, saying He is the Christ and deceive many. These are "christians", whether main-stream, self-styled or home-brewed. Who else could He be talking about here? Their faith is "real" enough, and sometimes their works are "wonderful". They make up THE CHURCH, but they are not HIS CHURCH. HIS CHURCH comes out of/from among THE CHURCH.
Read what Kat quoted above. Ray explains it better than I can.
Of course God chooses men to come out of other false religions and into a True Knowledge of the One True God. He is calling all men everywhere to repent. But He is not electing any who don't believe on Him. Or rather, He has not chosen any who are not dragged to Him.
That doesn't mean that people with other "faiths" and even those with none at all won't be raised and have their works judged, both good and bad. A man can "come out of or leave" any "babylon" he (thinks he) sees, but unless he is chosen, he cannot choose himself. He can't even choose God. Love isn't that we love Him...love is that He loved us. Having (what seems like) a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ doesn't mean that He knows us. Judgement begins at the House of God. That's from where He reveals His chosen.
Ray reminded us not to be too hard on the Church. Paul said not to judge things before their time. Today's religious murderer can be tomorrow's manifest son of God. It's all up to Him, and it was determined from the foundation of the world. We can only see with any certainty behind us, and even then not completely. And we'll go through fire.
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So I do not know at what part of my life 'I fell away' from 'my first love' - as it has never entered my heart and mind to leave Him at any time - as when He reached out to me - I gave up everything for Him - to the amazement of all my family and those close to me.
Maybe, you can see from the above summary, when I fell away from my first love - as I cannot quite see it - the only possible time is when I accepted the false teachings of the AOG PC and Derek Prince's false teachings.
Kind Regards.
George
Hi George, I can't know when you may have fallen away from your first love, even with your summary I am not able to know when things that are very specific to each of us happened with you. But I will give you my understanding of things the best that I can.
For one thing we are not born with a knowledge of God, even if we are raised within a family of church goers, there is a point in time when we can have a comprehension of God, but I too cannot remember a time when I did not know there was a God. The thing is we have to develop the understanding that we need to be saved from sin and death and learn that Christ is the only way that is possible. Now I do not know when this real 'first love' might have dawned in your mind.
I was raised as a Southern Baptist and it was a rather big deal that people make a public announcement of their fate in God as their Savior... every Sunday church service ended with an 'alter call' just for this purpose. Children coming forward was not only allowed but encouraged (after a certain age of course, they were loosely questioned to see if they actually knew what they were doing), because they believe children go to hell too. I think I was about 6 or 7 when I was baptized. I have seen many of these 'invitation to accept Christ' where people come forward to dedicate their lives to Him and some times it was a pretty emotional event for them and I don't think it was just for show either. I'm not for sure, but I believe that most religions have some sort of induction ceremony after a person decides to commit to that institution's particular set of beliefs, join as a member.
When we join with a church or any religious belief system, even our own idea of what truth is I suppose, we begin to build our 'false' spiritual house on the sand. Every "born again" Christian truly believe they are saved, when I was in church I too thought I had salvation, I didn't know any better, as all Christians are deceived. But this is the way it must be, that we learn our lesson of good and evil and being among the called we do learn the basics of who Christ is and why He came into the world. So what I'm saying is we do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling from birth and it certainly is not given when we join a harlot church, nor does it come with any of our own attempts to gain salvation.
I was a non-commented Southern Baptist early in my life, even though I was baptized as a child, but as a young adult I heard Herbert Armstrong and started attending WCG, was re-baptized and was very commented to that group for 15 year. When that organization began to disintegrate I left and went back to the Southern Baptist for 10 more years, ugh. That leads me to where I found BT some 10 years ago. What I see in all that we first have to get a big dose of an experience of good and evil, we have to know what this world really is by our own experience in it. We have to be called and learn who Christ is to start with, that certainly was not our begettal of the Holy Spirit, no that was deception. The called have no real spiritual understanding, that is building your 'false' spiritual house on sand. Spiritual knowledge of the truth only comes after all of that trying to save ourselves (that's what it really is), that all must come down. It's a rather jolting thing at first, to realize how wrong we have been, but it's a process that last the rest of our lives unlearning all the falsehood, but that's when the Holy Spirit comes indwelling. It was not until I started reading Ray's explanations of Scripture that my 'false' spiritual house built on sand fail and great was it's fall.
I have a real hope now, as I can see a distinct and profound difference from my wanderings in the church world and what I have now. I can certainly look back and see many changes in my way of thinking and living. What I gained from the Scripture as Ray taught it is much different than I understood in the church. Now I can see what is taught from the Scripture itself, I mean you have to come to understand the Scripture and not just what somebody tells you it means, that's a profound difference. Certainly it takes time, but having a teacher like Ray was a huge benefit.
So after saying all this maybe something will help you, but this is just my experience as I understand things.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Largeli, this should help too.
From Ray:
I have said many times in this series that there are "the called" and there are the "called AND chosen." We see it in every example: Jesus called Peter
"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter… and He said unto them, Follow Me…" (Matt. 4:18-19),
and so Peter followed Jesus
"And they straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED Him." (Ver. 20)
And so Peter followed Jesus for three and one-half years. But Peter was not converted:
"And the Lord said, Simon [Peter], Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and WHEN YOU ARE CONVERTED, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).
Called and Called and Chosen. The "chosen" are not a breed apart, though I'll admit to sometimes using language that might imply that. It isn't that there are these "called folks" over here and then there are these "chosen folks" over there. "Many are called, few are chosen" doesn't imply otherwise. Many are called, yes...and it is from among them that few are chosen.
The rest of that little snippet is invaluable too.
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Hi George, I too grew up in Babylon for many years, followed the traditions of men. When I came upon Bible-Truths, I cried for days (months). For the first time in my life, I realized, if you are dragged by GOD, he will set you free. I have gained so much from Ray's teaching and have studied GOD's Word daily (and continue to do so, praise GOD) and I can only tell you that GOD's Will, will be done! This Forum has saved my life and I thank GOD daily.
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Brenda -
Thank you so much for sharing this:
Hi George, I too grew up in Babylon for many years, followed the traditions of men. When I came upon Bible-Truths, I cried for days (months). For the first time in my life, I realized, if you are dragged by GOD, he will set you free. I have gained so much from Ray's teaching and have studied GOD's Word daily (and continue to do so, praise GOD) and I can only tell you that GOD's Will, will be done! This Forum has saved my life and I thank GOD daily.
I too, got the answers I was craving for over many years when I read Ray's Papers and emails, and I shed tears too.
The Truth indeed does set us all free.
Kind Regards.
George
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Dave in Tenn -
Thank you for reminding us of the important difference between the "the called" and the "called AND chosen":
Largeli, this should help too.
From Ray:
I have said many times in this series that there are "the called" and there are the "called AND chosen." We see it in every example: Jesus called Peter
"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter… and He said unto them, Follow Me…" (Matt. 4:18-19),
and so Peter followed Jesus
"And they straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED Him." (Ver. 20)
And so Peter followed Jesus for three and one-half years. But Peter was not converted:
"And the Lord said, Simon [Peter], Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and WHEN YOU ARE CONVERTED, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).
Called and Called and Chosen. The "chosen" are not a breed apart, though I'll admit to sometimes using language that might imply that. It isn't that there are these "called folks" over here and then there are these "chosen folks" over there. "Many are called, few are chosen" doesn't imply otherwise. Many are called, yes...and it is from among them that few are chosen.
The rest of that little snippet is invaluable too.
This is indeed a fundamental Truth that most professing Christians and followers of Jesus Christ are unaware of this distinction - or how - one starts as one of "the called" and then may become one of the "called AND chosen".
Kind Regards.
George
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Kat - Thank you for your below Post:
So I do not know at what part of my life 'I fell away' from 'my first love' - as it has never entered my heart and mind to leave Him at any time - as when He reached out to me - I gave up everything for Him - to the amazement of all my family and those close to me.
Maybe, you can see from the above summary, when I fell away from my first love - as I cannot quite see it - the only possible time is when I accepted the false teachings of the AOG PC and Derek Prince's false teachings.
Kind Regards.
George
Hi George, I can't know when you may have fallen away from your first love, even with your summary I am not able to know when things that are very specific to each of us happened with you. But I will give you my understanding of things the best that I can.
For one thing we are not born with a knowledge of God, even if we are raised within a family of church goers, there is a point in time when we can have a comprehension of God, but I too cannot remember a time when I did not know there was a God. The thing is we have to develop the understanding that we need to be saved from sin and death and learn that Christ is the only way that is possible. Now I do not know when this real 'first love' might have dawned in your mind.
I was raised as a Southern Baptist and it was a rather big deal that people make a public announcement of their fate in God as their Savior... every Sunday church service ended with an 'alter call' just for this purpose. Children coming forward was not only allowed but encouraged (after a certain age of course, they were loosely questioned to see if they actually knew what they were doing), because they believe children go to hell too. I think I was about 6 or 7 when I was baptized. I have seen many of these 'invitation to accept Christ' where people come forward to dedicate their lives to Him and some times it was a pretty emotional event for them and I don't think it was just for show either. I'm not for sure, but I believe that most religions have some sort of induction ceremony after a person decides to commit to that institution's particular set of beliefs, join as a member.
When we join with a church or any religious belief system, even our own idea of what truth is I suppose, we begin to build our 'false' spiritual house on the sand. Every "born again" Christian truly believe they are saved, when I was in church I too thought I had salvation, I didn't know any better, as all Christians are deceived. But this is the way it must be, that we learn our lesson of good and evil and being among the called we do learn the basics of who Christ is and why He came into the world. So what I'm saying is we do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling from birth and it certainly is not given when we join a harlot church, nor does it come with any of our own attempts to gain salvation.
I was a non-commented Southern Baptist early in my life, even though I was baptized as a child, but as a young adult I heard Herbert Armstrong and started attending WCG, was re-baptized and was very commented to that group for 15 year. When that organization began to disintegrate I left and went back to the Southern Baptist for 10 more years, ugh. That leads me to where I found BT some 10 years ago. What I see in all that we first have to get a big dose of an experience of good and evil, we have to know what this world really is by our own experience in it. We have to be called and learn who Christ is to start with, that certainly was not our begettal of the Holy Spirit, no that was deception. The called have no real spiritual understanding, that is building your 'false' spiritual house on sand. Spiritual knowledge of the truth only comes after all of that trying to save ourselves (that's what it really is), that all must come down. It's a rather jolting thing at first, to realize how wrong we have been, but it's a process that last the rest of our lives unlearning all the falsehood, but that's when the Holy Spirit comes indwelling. It was not until I started reading Ray's explanations of Scripture that my 'false' spiritual house built on sand fail and great was it's fall.
I have a real hope now, as I can see a distinct and profound difference from my wanderings in the church world and what I have now. I can certainly look back and see many changes in my way of thinking and living. What I gained from the Scripture as Ray taught it is much different than I understood in the church. Now I can see what is taught from the Scripture itself, I mean you have to come to understand the Scripture and not just what somebody tells you it means, that's a profound difference. Certainly it takes time, but having a teacher like Ray was a huge benefit.
So after saying all this maybe something will help you, but this is just my experience as I understand things.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I was at the end of a ten point response to you - when suddenly when I touched the mouse on our computer, my draft disappeared.
As I do not believe in coincidences or randomness - I have pondered on this - and as yet - I have not a clue as to why this happened.
Perhaps, my draft was not quite right - so I will reflect on this - and await His Directive on this matter.
Kind Regards.
George
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Dave your quote..
Simply...unless a man's faith is in vain (literally, fake), then yes those chosen of God are chosen out of/from among believers in Christ. The MANY say unto Him, "Lord, Lord..." The MANY come in His name, saying He is the Christ and deceive many. These are "christians", whether main-stream, self-styled or home-brewed. Who else could He be talking about here? Their faith is "real" enough, and sometimes their works are "wonderful". They make up THE CHURCH, but they are not HIS CHURCH. HIS CHURCH comes out of/from among THE CHURCH.
In the verses you've referenced above, that the many say unto Him "Lord, Lord..", is it of any consequence that the scripture you're referencing doesn't actually say "the many" but Christ says "many will come to me and say 'Lord, Lord..' " He says 'many will say' not 'the many will say...'
I don't know if that's of any consequence or not.
Also where you said the many make up The Church but not His Church. So The Church (not His Church) is the synagogue of satan is that right? Ok wouldn't a mosque or any other pagan temple also be a church of satans? Maybe not huh... maybe 'synagogue' of satan implies a specific religion... Does synagogue of satan imply that the Jewish temples as well as Christian churches are where the many and called are located? Are synagogues and churches what make up the church (not His Church) while mosques and other false religions temples/churches are not the synagogue of satan and not the church, the many?
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I'll leave you with what Ray taught about the "synagogue of satan". I just tried to answer the question posed.
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I'll leave you with what Ray taught about the "synagogue of satan". I just tried to answer the question posed.
10-4
What about "The many" vs "Many"?
Where in scripture can I find reference to The many as opposed to where it just says "many"?
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THE is a definite article (primarily) and an adverb (occasionally).
When "we" use the term "the many" it usually simply differentiates ONE PARTICULAR MANY, from ONE PARTICULAR FEW. But since it's a word, it also differentiates ONE many from ANOTHER many. That's one of the many uses of the "article".
I don't see THE MANY in any place in the KJV.
Here's one example from a more "literal" translation. There are others that use the full phrase with the article, but they only prove "THE" is a word, and not a bible-word.
2Co 2:17 For we do not, as the many, make a trade of the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, before God, we speak in Christ.
That there are "MANY" (given the entire history of mankind) who have never so much as heard the name of Jesus, much less anything about His life, death, and resurrection, in addition to those who don't believe, or follow other religions (or none at all) should go without saying. I feel just a little bit stupid having to say that much.
BUT they are not THE "Many (that) will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?" Mat_7:22
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Not sure I've ever felt more foolish or pompous putting all that obviousness down.
Signing out,
Captain Obvious.
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Dave in Tenn -
Thank you for these essential (maybe not for you, but certainly for at least one other) clarifications:
THE is a definite article (primarily) and an adverb (occasionally).
When "we" use the term "the many" it usually simply differentiates ONE PARTICULAR MANY, from ONE PARTICULAR FEW. But since it's a word, it also differentiates ONE many from ANOTHER many. That's one of the many uses of the "article".
I don't see THE MANY in any place in the KJV.
Here's one example from a more "literal" translation. There are others that use the full phrase with the article, but they only prove "THE" is a word, and not a bible-word.
2Co 2:17 For we do not, as the many, make a trade of the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, before God, we speak in Christ.
That there are "MANY" (given the entire history of mankind) who have never so much as heard the name of Jesus, much less anything about His life, death, and resurrection, in addition to those who don't believe, or follow other religions (or none at all) should go without saying. I feel just a little bit stupid having to say that much.
BUT they are not THE "Many (that) will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?" Mat_7:22
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Not sure I've ever felt more foolish or pompous putting all that obviousness down.
Signing out,
Captain Obvious.
What is obvious to one, some, most, or many - may not be obvious to all. So it is at times right to point out, why and how, you have come to the conclusion you have put forward.
Here is a little side track to focus our minds and hearts on (and please note that I do not vote in the affairs of mankind):
In the United Kingdom, in the debates about why the majority voted to leave the European Union, we have all the young adults thinking and believing that they know that it is right to remain within the European Union - yet they fail to take into consideration that their older generation have had far more life experiences, and most of them voted to leave - and the young adults appear to believe that the older generation do no longer understand what they are doing. Come on, who is likely to know the truth of things, someone who has just finished their state run education - or those that have lived for forty plus years and experienced working, raising a family, dealing with all the issues of life. etc.
We are Commanded in many places in The Holy Scriptures to take notice of our elders, who are invariable not young - and why is this - I put it to everyone - it is because the elders do not speak from self or ego but from their life experiences that have proven the facts of things - hence they speak Words of Truth.
Come on - who wants to hear words from the inexperienced, or the ego - do not the most of us switch off and stop listening to those that focus on themselves and who put themselves at the centre of all things.
When do we get to start to become wise, is it not when we focus on others rather than ourselves - 'deny ourselves' as it were.
But the prudent, take note of the Words of their Elders as invariably they speak the Wisdom that can only come from Almighty God Himself.
Thank You.
So the 'many' must be referencing the 'many Called', as opposed to the 'few Called and Chosen' - and these groups of people are called by the God of The Holy Scriptures which are Jesus Christ centric in this Age of Grace.
Kind Regards.
George
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In the United Kingdom, in the debates about why the majority voted to leave the European Union, we have all the young adults thinking and believing that they know that it is right to remain within the European Union - yet they fail to take into consideration that their older generation have had far more life experiences, and most of them voted to leave - and the young adults appear to believe that the older generation do no longer understand what they are doing. Come on, who is likely to know the truth of things, someone who has just finished their state run education - or those that have lived for forty plus years and experienced working, raising a family, dealing with all the issues of life. etc.
Please make sure this topic does not become political.
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Dennis -
Thank you for pointing this out:
In the United Kingdom, in the debates about why the majority voted to leave the European Union, we have all the young adults thinking and believing that they know that it is right to remain within the European Union - yet they fail to take into consideration that their older generation have had far more life experiences, and most of them voted to leave - and the young adults appear to believe that the older generation do no longer understand what they are doing. Come on, who is likely to know the truth of things, someone who has just finished their state run education - or those that have lived for forty plus years and experienced working, raising a family, dealing with all the issues of life. etc.
Please make sure this topic does not become political.
I was trying to find an example, and this was the best one I could think of.
Duly Noted and Accepted.
Kind Regards.
George
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Without any regard to affairs of the world:
"...and a little child shall lead them..."
Mat_18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mar_10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Luke_18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
It may be true that elders sometimes have wisdoms that young people lack (assuming mightily that they do), they also have more repentance to undergo. We need the best of each other.
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Dave in Tenn -
You make a valid point:
Without any regard to affairs of the world:
"...and a little child shall lead them..."
Mat_18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mar_10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Luke_18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
It may be true that elders sometimes have wisdoms that young people lack (assuming mightily that they do), they also have more repentance to undergo. We need the best of each other.
After all, Jesus' followers were mainly all young men.
The point I was making was that the young dismissed the older people, as far as I am aware, purely on the basis that they were old and no longer working, and therefore the impact would be on the young - and the young felt that the older people should not have voted at all, or voted to stay in (as this was the desire of the majority of the young people). Which to me, is disrespectful to the older people who should do what they felt was right.
Thank You.
Kind Regards.
George.
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Largeli, while I tried to answer your questions as they were asked, what I really think about Muslims and Islam is them being more akin to the Samaritans in Jesus' day.
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YouTube has a video that shows Babylon Has Fallen Fallen, when the Pope retired .
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I am left with a bit of confusion... can someone help.
I took this from one of Ray's teachings : A women is a "church" in Scripture and Symbolism, and Prophecy. The MOTHER is the Jewish religion from whence came the NEW Testament Church. The HARLOT DAUGHTERS are all the different churches and denominations which came OUT OF the Mother Church. It is the combination of all these churches that is called: "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH." And it is this Babylonish system of religion that we are to "COME OUT OF."
No I was thinking, looking back at what you (Kat) mentioned above i.e. but I also think of Babylon as the whole worldly system in general too, as it has the proclivity towards carnality.
No how does one come out of the WORLD? I believe we have to be a part of all this, it is for our benefit. But then again, COMING OUT OF BABYLON, now that is an entirely different thing altogether.
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Brenda -
You raise very good points and questions:
I am left with a bit of confusion... can someone help.
I took this from one of Ray's teachings : A women is a "church" in Scripture and Symbolism, and Prophecy. The MOTHER is the Jewish religion from whence came the NEW Testament Church. The HARLOT DAUGHTERS are all the different churches and denominations which came OUT OF the Mother Church. It is the combination of all these churches that is called: "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH." And it is this Babylonish system of religion that we are to "COME OUT OF."
No I was thinking, looking back at what you (Kat) mentioned above i.e. but I also think of Babylon as the whole worldly system in general too, as it has the proclivity towards carnality.
No how does one come out of the WORLD? I believe we have to be a part of all this, it is for our benefit. But then again, COMING OUT OF BABYLON, now that is an entirely different thing altogether.
We know that there is 'The Kingdom of God' and we know that there is a the 'kingdom of Satan'.
Jesus Himself said that Satan's kingdom is not divided, otherwise it would fall.
Is Satan's kingdom still with us today? Is 'The Kingdom of God' with us today?
Satan is evil - and evil is still in 'the World' today - so Satan's kingdom is with us today.
Jesus said 'That The Kingdom of God is within you' - so we know that there are still some of His 'Called Out Called out Chosen Elect' here on Earth today - so 'The Kingdom of God' is with us today.
Are there any other kingdoms?
From what does 'Jesus' and our 'Heavenly Father' drag us from?
Jesus said 'You are in the World but not of the World'.
Perhaps, when He dragged us to Himself, it was from 'The kingdom pf Satan'.
We know that Satan is the deceiver of all 'the World'.
Could it be, that the 'kingdom of Satan', is indeed 'Mystery Babylon the Great'.
Are 'The Called' from 'Babylon' or from 'The Church (and not His Church)'?
Is 'The Church' 'Babylon', or part of 'Babylon'?
Logically, anything that is not 'The Kingdom of God' or 'His Called Out Called Out Chosen Elect' must be something else.
So, is 'The World', 'The Church', 'Babylon The Great' and 'Satan's kingdom', the one and the same?
Or does 'Mystery Babylon The Great' encompass 'The World' and 'The Church'; and is 'Mystery Babylon The Great' perhaps, 'Satan's kingdom'?
Sidetracking here a little (in trying to establish the root causes of all this) -
Could it be, that all other belief systems ('religions' if you will), are all part of 'Babylon'; and do these belief systems, include 'all religions', 'atheists', etc, and even the 'beliefs' of the societies we all live in? Some have said that 'belief' is what we accept as 'Truth'; but if this is so, does 'Truth' mean 'belief'? I do not believe 'Truth' is 'belief', as there are many different 'beliefs'. So, perhaps, 'Mystery Babylon The Great' is all the false 'beliefs' that are contrary to 'The Truths of The Holy Scriptures' (i.e. living a lie, or believing 'fiction' as 'Truth')? Can we honestly state that 'Mystery Babylon The Great' has none of God's Truths - and if so, is this a correct way to determine what 'Mystery Babylon The Great' is?
What do you all think?
Thank You.
Kind Regards.
George
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I am left with a bit of confusion... can someone help.
I took this from one of Ray's teachings : A women is a "church" in Scripture and Symbolism, and Prophecy. The MOTHER is the Jewish religion from whence came the NEW Testament Church. The HARLOT DAUGHTERS are all the different churches and denominations which came OUT OF the Mother Church. It is the combination of all these churches that is called: "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH." And it is this Babylonish system of religion that we are to "COME OUT OF."
No I was thinking, looking back at what you (Kat) mentioned above i.e. but I also think of Babylon as the whole worldly system in general too, as it has the proclivity towards carnality.
No how does one come out of the WORLD? I believe we have to be a part of all this, it is for our benefit. But then again, COMING OUT OF BABYLON, now that is an entirely different thing altogether.
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
John 17:14-18
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Revelation 18:1-5
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Indeed, the whore of revelation is the church and she has made drunk the nations with her religious idolatry and blasphemies. She has devoured the kings of the nations. Satan is lifted high and magnified in her halls. To escape her is to escape them all.
God bless,
Alex
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I am left with a bit of confusion... can someone help.
I took this from one of Ray's teachings : A women is a "church" in Scripture and Symbolism, and Prophecy. The MOTHER is the Jewish religion from whence came the NEW Testament Church. The HARLOT DAUGHTERS are all the different churches and denominations which came OUT OF the Mother Church. It is the combination of all these churches that is called: "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH." And it is this Babylonish system of religion that we are to "COME OUT OF."
No I was thinking, looking back at what you (Kat) mentioned above i.e. but I also think of Babylon as the whole worldly system in general too, as it has the proclivity towards carnality.
No how does one come out of the WORLD? I believe we have to be a part of all this, it is for our benefit. But then again, COMING OUT OF BABYLON, now that is an entirely different thing altogether.
Well that is a fair question. When you think about the 'church' as Babylon, certainly it is the huge Christian religious system spread around the world, but in a broader sense think how much the church is involved in the political system and how much they have manipulated the governments of the world. We may not notice it so much here in the US, but the church and state (the social, political, and economic systems) have been so intertwined throughout history as they are hard to separate. Indeed isn't the woman (church) sitting on a wild beast (political world system) that John sees in Revelation 17?
Rev 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
v. 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
v. 3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
It's this whole worldly system that is carnal and corrupt where Satan rules, and as we learn to serve and obey God we must turn away from all the vices of the world.
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
v. 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
We should no longer agree with worldly affairs/principles, we are no longer "conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" (Rom 12:2). This requires that we separate, stand apart and not participate in the governmental and even most social functions.
2Cor 6:14 Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness?
v. 15 What harmony exists between the Messiah and Beliar, or what do a believer and an unbeliever have in common?
v. 16 What agreement can a temple of God make with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said: "I will live and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people."
v. 17 Therefore, "Get away from them and separate yourselves from them," declares the Lord, "and don't touch anything unclean. Then I will welcome you.
v. 18 I will be your Father, and you will be my sons and daughters," declares the Lord Almighty. (ISV)
Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
This is a high calling, the highest there is... how can we expect to rule with Christ if we keep our minds bogged down in worldly matters. Yes we are still living in this world and we have to go about our daily lives, but the main focus of our minds should be on spiritual things, the things of God, not on this world of darkness where Satan rules.
John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
v. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Here are a couple places where Ray mentioned this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1348.0.html ---------
John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
Please would you tell me what Jesus could have meant in John 17:9 where He excluded the world in His prayer. Who did he mean to be excluded?
Thank you & bless you
Deborah
Dear Deborah:
Good question.
The "world" represents two entities in Scripture: [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the the nations in general.
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD" (John 16:33). What "world?" Did He overcome China? Japan? Indolnesia? No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
But in John 17:24 read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "kosmos"--the whole system of world governemtns.
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace." Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html ---------------------------------
In verse 13 these same ungodly men are called, "RAGING WAVES OF THE SEA…" (Jude 1:13).
"Come hither; I will show you unto you the judgment of the great whore that sits UPON MANY WATERS" (Rev. 17:1). And the "many waters" are defined as, "The waters which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." (Rev. 17:15)
The whore is a great church, and it sits on a wild beast (a great political system), and John, "…saw a wild beast rise up OUT OF THE SEA (Rev. 13:1). This beast does not rise up out of one particular sea, that is one particular nation or people or multitude or tongue, but out of ALL OF THEM.
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives THE WHOLE WORLD…" (Rev. 12:5).
And the waters on which the whore sits are called, "…peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." In other words, the whore sits upon ALL THE SEA; ALL THE PEOPLES AND MULTITUDES AND LANGUAGES AND NATIONS OF THE ENTIRE EARTH! And she RIDES the wild beast that came up out of this same great and vast sea of humanity.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
P.S. FAQ - What is Babylon? http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11603.msg100451.html#msg100451
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Kat
Verse 9 in Rev 17 says "this calls for a mind with wisdom". Perhaps this is why I'm confused with your post... I've never claimed to be wise.
You said that the beast is "a great political system"
Here's Rev 17:9-11
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
So when it says the seven heads are seven hills, and also kings, so on and so forth.... Are all these also political systems? The beast is an eighth king. If by 'king' it means a great political system does that mean the other seven 'kings' are also great political systems? Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come... Are all these political systems?
Later in verse 16
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
So the church (whore) rides the political system (beast) thinking she can control it/use it.. but the political system (beast) will hate the church (prostitute) the political system will bring the church to ruin, leave her naked; eat her flesh and burn her with fire?
Again I do not claim to be wise so if this is obvious to anyone please be patient.
Not to be 'political' but it is fascinating to me to see how ferociously American Christians are attacking the National Anthem protests of professional sports athletes for the last couple weeks. The woman (American Christians) is breathing fire towards any acts of blasphemy against their other god... the beast, the state, the political construct who's symbol is the flag.
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You said that the beast is "a great political system"
I don't think it's political as much as the world's system.
Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev_18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev_18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
A little digging will reveal more ...
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I hate to say it but I struggle with watching the news however God is dealing with me on that, I'm at the point that I don't feel the need to vote anymore though part of me wants to,the lesser evil if you will. Are we not to be concerned with the affairs of whats going on in the country we live in , so what I'm asking is when my favorite news comes on should I mow the lawn or split wood instead
Terry
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I hate to say it but I struggle with watching the news however God is dealing with me on that, I'm at the point that I don't feel the need to vote anymore though part of me wants to,the lesser evil if you will. Are we not to be concerned with the affairs of whats going on in the country we live in , so what I'm asking is when my favorite news comes on should I mow the lawn or split wood instead
Terry
We've had this discussion many times here on the forums.
God is sovereign and you cannot change what He has planned must be. Whomever is to be the next elected official, king, ruler, of any of our earthly kingdoms was determined long before our or their birth's.
We are told that we believers are a holy nation, a peculiar people. Tell me, as our being our own nation, why should we then vote in the affairs of another nation? Or, we, whose citizenship is in the heavens, why should we act as if our citizenship is to any of these earthly kingdoms, or our loyalties to any one carnal man?
I have never once voted in my entire life and God has never forsaken me all the days of my life.
God bless,
Alex
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I hate to say it but I struggle with watching the news however God is dealing with me on that, I'm at the point that I don't feel the need to vote anymore though part of me wants to,the lesser evil if you will. Are we not to be concerned with the affairs of whats going on in the country we live in , so what I'm asking is when my favorite news comes on should I mow the lawn or split wood instead
Terry
Or...you could split the lawn and mow the wood. ;D
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Thank GOD for all his blessing!!
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Dave in Tenn -
Good 'un!
I hate to say it but I struggle with watching the news however God is dealing with me on that, I'm at the point that I don't feel the need to vote anymore though part of me wants to,the lesser evil if you will. Are we not to be concerned with the affairs of whats going on in the country we live in , so what I'm asking is when my favorite news comes on should I mow the lawn or split wood instead
Terry
Or...you could split the lawn and mow the wood. ;D
I must try this.
Kind Regards.
George
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Dennis -
These Scriptures you Posted clarify things:
You said that the beast is "a great political system"
I don't think it's political as much as the world's system.
Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev_18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev_18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
A little digging will reveal more ...
I do not fully understand this statement:
I don't think it's political as much as the world's system.
If the world system is one of international 'merchants', how can it not be political - as Nations are governed, and government is political.
Or, do you mean, the whole world 'merchants' system is more than just political?
Am I misunderstanding what you are saying here.
Thank you.
Kind Regards.
George
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Though I still see the passages of scripture where Paul uses his Roman citizenship to save his life
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10. But Paul said, "I stand before the judgment seat of Caesar, where I have the right to be judged . . . 11. For on the one hand, if I am a wrongdoer and have done anything worthy of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is no truth in their accusations against me, no one can deliver me over to them. I appeal to Caesar" (Acts 25)
You pay taxes as you should. You obey laws as long as they do not violate your conscience before God. You may be an ambassador for Christ, but your passport says your home country. Your public schools are run with your money. Think about that. The military is run with your money. So to sit back and say you are above it all is disingenuous to me. We are In this world , just not of it.
I have a friend who, for the most part, watches no news because she hates getting wrapped up in it all- but she is a voracious reader and will read all about it when a book comes out. But i have to say that ignorance is not especially attractive to me. Obession is not attractive either so balance is key.
This life is about our hearts, not about laws. I am free in Christ and With that freedom I still vote. To not would violate my conscience- for many of you it would violate your conscience to vote. Though I have to admit, if ever I was not goung to vote this would be the year for it. So don't vote - I do not much care . The system does not care either as long as you send every dollar you make in January, February, March and probably April.
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Dennis -
These Scriptures you Posted clarify things:
You said that the beast is "a great political system"
I don't think it's political as much as the world's system.
Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev_18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev_18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
A little digging will reveal more ...
I do not fully understand this statement:
I don't think it's political as much as the world's system.
If the world system is one of international 'merchants', how can it not be political - as Nations are governed, and government is political.
Or, do you mean, the whole world 'merchants' system is more than just political?
Am I misunderstanding what you are saying here.
Thank you.
Kind Regards.
George
1Ti_6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
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Kat
Verse 9 in Rev 17 says "this calls for a mind with wisdom". Perhaps this is why I'm confused with your post... I've never claimed to be wise.
You said that the beast is "a great political system"
Here's Rev 17:9-11
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
So when it says the seven heads are seven hills, and also kings, so on and so forth.... Are all these also political systems? The beast is an eighth king. If by 'king' it means a great political system does that mean the other seven 'kings' are also great political systems? Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come... Are all these political systems?
Later in verse 16
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
So the church (whore) rides the political system (beast) thinking she can control it/use it.. but the political system (beast) will hate the church (prostitute) the political system will bring the church to ruin, leave her naked; eat her flesh and burn her with fire?
Again I do not claim to be wise so if this is obvious to anyone please be patient.
Not to be 'political' but it is fascinating to me to see how ferociously American Christians are attacking the National Anthem protests of professional sports athletes for the last couple weeks. The woman (American Christians) is breathing fire towards any acts of blasphemy against their other god... the beast, the state, the political construct who's symbol is the flag.
My way of looking at the symbolism in prophecies is that they are not specific about a person, place or thing, but rather a way of speaking in general terms.
Ray gave us what some of these symbols, the woman - church, there in Revelation 17 is riding a beast.
Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was controlled by blasphemy. It had seven heads and ten horns. (ISV)
Rev 17:18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
Notice that the beast has seven (7) heads... Ray spoke of this number 7 in relation to the 7 churches meaning completeness in his LoF article #7 'Church Heresy Came Long Before Bible Errors.'
Rev 17:9 This calls for a mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is sitting. They are also seven kings.
So we have 7 heads, that are 7 kings, that are 7 mountains on this beast that the woman rides... it seems to me this is speaking of all (the complete) carnal, corrupt world's governments of this age. It's the church and state, all the kings/rulers/presidents/dictators/czars/Popes/Archbishop or whatever, these are the mountains, the high ruling places/governments of the world in this age - this is the completely picture of what it's all about. All the religious rulers and all the national governments are in bed together, so to speak, but they are not friends, they more like hate each other, because they are both highly ambitious and sinister and they manipulate (I can't think of enough derogatory terms to use), but they wreak havoc with impunity.
This is the world we live in, both the governing body - those that make policy and laws that direct society and the religious leaders - those that direct to moral code of the citizens, are corrupt through and through and are working together to gain all the carnal worldly pleasures they can get, at the expense of the general populace. That's just the way of this age and nothing will/can change it until Christ returns.
So if that's what you want to participate in, then vote... or maybe do something useful like cut the grass or chop wood.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Though I still see the passages of scripture where Paul uses his Roman citizenship to save his life
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10. But Paul said, "I stand before the judgment seat of Caesar, where I have the right to be judged . . . 11. For on the one hand, if I am a wrongdoer and have done anything worthy of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is no truth in their accusations against me, no one can deliver me over to them. I appeal to Caesar" (Acts 25)
You pay taxes as you should. You obey laws as long as they do not violate your conscience before God. You may be an ambassador for Christ, but your passport says your home country. Your public schools are run with your money. Think about that. The military is run with your money. So to sit back and say you are above it all is disingenuous to me. We are In this world , just not of it.
I have a friend who, for the most part, watches no news because she hates getting wrapped up in it all- but she is a voracious reader and will read all about it when a book comes out. But i have to say that ignorance is not especially attractive to me. Obession is not attractive either so balance is key.
This life is about our hearts, not about laws. I am free in Christ and With that freedom I still vote. To not would violate my conscience- for many of you it would violate your conscience to vote. Though I have to admit, if ever I was not goung to vote this would be the year for it. So don't vote - I do not much care . The system does not care either as long as you send every dollar you make in January, February, March and probably April.
God is the judge.
We both know, by the great mercy and grace of God, that man has no free will and that He is fully in control. That He appoints kings and gives the kingdoms of men to whom He desires.
Paul was very smart. The spirit of God is the spirit of a sound mind. He used his head.
I pay taxes because its illegal not to. God says to be subject to the laws that be for there is truly no other power than His.
I have enough problems in myself and in my immediate life to be worried about what the carnal leaders of the nations are planning and doing. I trust God.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
You are free from the law of sin and death, you are not free from law though.
You can do as you please rose. I am certainly not going to stop you.
God bless,
Alex
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Octoberose you said...
You pay taxes as you should. You obey laws as long as they do not violate your conscience before God. You may be an ambassador for Christ, but your passport says your home country. Your public schools are run with your money. Think about that. The military is run with your money. So to sit back and say you are above it all is disingenuous to me. We are In this world , just not of it.
It sounds like you're saying we have dual-citizenship? But Christ said that this is not our kingdom anymore than it is His kingdom... Or maybe I'm mistaken and He said we are not of this world anymore than He is of this world.
Taxes... I pay taxes voluntarily only when I buy something and pay a 'sales tax'. The income tax that's taken from my/our paychecks are taken. If I, you, or anyone tries to not pay your income tax, you will eventually be forced to pay through the threat of violence (incarceration etc).
If I'm 'in' the world and not 'of' the world than am I wrong in saying that nothing in or of this world belongs to me? The schools that my kids go to are not mine. The military that works for the nation is not mine. The money that pays for these things likewise is not mine.
One of my reasons for not voting is because, as the saying goes, a snowflake does not feel responsible for the avalanche. One vote being one snowflake. The avalanche being open for interpretation I suppose.
Btw Octoberose my understanding of these things is not the same as it was in the past. And my understanding of these things is not what it will be in the future, I'm sure. Time changes perspective I think. So I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Just offering the thoughts from my current perspective.
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Kat
Verse 9 in Rev 17 says "this calls for a mind with wisdom". Perhaps this is why I'm confused with your post... I've never claimed to be wise.
You said that the beast is "a great political system"
Here's Rev 17:9-11
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
So when it says the seven heads are seven hills, and also kings, so on and so forth.... Are all these also political systems? The beast is an eighth king. If by 'king' it means a great political system does that mean the other seven 'kings' are also great political systems? Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come... Are all these political systems?
Later in verse 16
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
So the church (whore) rides the political system (beast) thinking she can control it/use it.. but the political system (beast) will hate the church (prostitute) the political system will bring the church to ruin, leave her naked; eat her flesh and burn her with fire?
Again I do not claim to be wise so if this is obvious to anyone please be patient.
Not to be 'political' but it is fascinating to me to see how ferociously American Christians are attacking the National Anthem protests of professional sports athletes for the last couple weeks. The woman (American Christians) is breathing fire towards any acts of blasphemy against their other god... the beast, the state, the political construct who's symbol is the flag.
My way of looking at the symbolism in prophecies is that they are not specific about a person, place or thing, but rather a way of speaking in general terms.
Ray gave us what some of these symbols, the woman - church, there in Revelation 17 is riding a beast.
Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was controlled by blasphemy. It had seven heads and ten horns. (ISV)
Rev 17:18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
Notice that the beast has seven (7) heads... Ray spoke of this number 7 in relation to the 7 churches meaning completeness in his LoF article #7 'Church Heresy Came Long Before Bible Errors.'
Rev 17:9 This calls for a mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is sitting. They are also seven kings.
So we have 7 heads, that are 7 kings, that are 7 mountains on this beast that the woman rides... it seems to me this is speaking of all (the complete) carnal, corrupt world's governments of this age. It's the church and state, all the kings/rulers/presidents/dictators/czars/Popes/Archbishop or whatever, these are the mountains, the high ruling places/governments of the world in this age - this is the completely picture of what it's all about. All the religious rulers and all the national governments are in bed together, so to speak, but they are not friends, they more like hate each other, because they are both highly ambitious and sinister and they manipulate (I can't think of enough derogatory terms to use), but they wreak havoc with impunity.
This is the world we live in, both the governing body - those that make policy and laws that direct society and the religious leaders - those that direct to moral code of the citizens, are corrupt through and through and are working together to gain all the carnal worldly pleasures they can get, at the expense of the general populace. That's just the way of this age and nothing will/can change it until Christ returns.
So if that's what you want to participate in, then vote... or maybe do something useful like cut the grass or chop wood.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thank you Kat
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I know Gods plan will be what its going to be regardless if I vote or not to be honest I don't give a hoot about voting its watching the news I'm talking about and watching politics drags me down anyway, i feel the Lord is dealing with me to shun it anyway, the thing is I feel rough times are a head and watching the news helps me to plan for what ever might be coming I know we should save a little money for emergency's but how bout food it can't be wrong to do that can it, I mean if the economy collaps it would be nice to have a little put back, theres nothing wrong with preparing is it.
And Alex the thorn in one mans flesh could be different than the thorn in another we all have our own fight lest that's the way I see it, the things I fight with daily my wife says she never thinks of at all, I'm not nearly as seasoned as most here so please bear with me.
Dave I have never tried to split grass and mow wood, you funny
Terry
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I know Gods plan will be what its going to be regardless if I vote or not to be honest I don't give a hoot about voting its watching the news I'm talking about and watching politics drags me down anyway, i feel the Lord is dealing with me to shun it anyway, the thing is I feel rough times are a head and watching the news helps me to plan for what ever might be coming I know we should save a little money for emergency's but how bout food it can't be wrong to do that can it, I mean if the economy collaps it would be nice to have a little put back, theres nothing wrong with preparing is it.
And Alex the thorn in one mans flesh could be different than the thorn in another we all have our own fight lest that's the way I see it, the things I fight with daily my wife says she never thinks of at all, I'm not nearly as seasoned as most here so please bear with me.
Dave I have never tried to split grass and mow wood, you funny
Terry
Hi Terry,
Apologies. I was not coming down on you at all. There is no wrong in preparing or planning, especially when we understand where the control really is.
There is a wonderful story of Elisha. One of my favorites. He was surrounded on all sides by his enemies and his servant was exceedingly fearful and asked him what they were to do. Elisha prayed that God would open his servant's eyes and when he did the servant saw all around Elisha flaming chariots of fire.
Jesus asked, Do you think I am not able to call down twelve legions of angels to my side?
We are well protected brother. I think of those beautiful things.
We are human, we will fear, we will desire control, we we will stumble, but God is greater than all.
God bless,
Alex
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Apologies. I was not coming down on you at all. There is no wrong in preparing or planning, especially when we understand where the control really is.
No apology needed Alex, love you Brother, about 2 months ago my daughter come in to some money she wanted to do something for me and her mom, I've been very sick for 13 yrs. and work 1 day a week to make ends meet, she knew I was going to quit when I got my mortgage paid so she paid my mortgage off $9200.00 I can't tell you what a burden that was and what a blessing it is now, could be God's been taking care of things and I didn't even know it, I know I worry when I shouldn't, got the faith of a mustard seed but we know what happens to that, can't wait.
Terry
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Terry, very happy to hear about your mortgage being paid. You daughter doing that for her parents shows you guys did a good job raising her!
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From Kat- "So if that's what you want to participate in, then vote... or maybe do something useful like cut the grass or chop wood."
My point is that you are already participating in this system- weather you choose to acknowledge it or not. Ya'll have narrowed participating in this world with voting, as if that is the only measure of participation. It's not- look at our different countries and cultures, the different histories of the world in the past 2000 years. It makes a difference and how we move in our culture makes a difference. God put us in these places and times.
From Alex, "Paul was very smart. The spirit of God is the spirit of a sound mind. He used his head." Very nicely expressed my friend.
From Largeli, "It sounds like you're saying we have dual-citizenship? But Christ said that this is not our kingdom anymore than it is His kingdom... Or maybe I'm mistaken and He said we are not of this world anymore than He is of this world".
I guess, as I've reflected on this for the past few years (and you are so right that our perspectives and understandings change in time) that I see these verses about ambassadorship differently then the way they are often presented here. I don't read this being an ambassador for Christ as Excluding citizenship or participation in a physical country. Jesus was from Nazareth. It was part of his narrative . Paul was a Roman, as I've talked about a lot in the past. Being an ambassador for Christ not only SUPERSEDES any earthly citizenship, it is on a Different Plane altogether. How can it not be? It colors our perspective. It directs our hope. It enlightens us. It gives us a greater view- an age abiding view. In this world- not OF it.
But I live here and I do not want to be so 'spiritual' I am no practical good. So, when my city asks to appropriate a certain amount of taxes to take care of our roads in disrepair , I'm going to say yes or no. I get to do that and if you want to, so do you. And if you'd rather chop wood, have at it. I have a gas fireplace myself but I would really like to have a wood burning one too. There are a lot of snowflakes in Colorado. :)
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From Kat- "So if that's what you want to participate in, then vote... or maybe do something useful like cut the grass or chop wood."
My point is that you are already participating in this system- weather you choose to acknowledge it or not. Ya'll have narrowed participating in this world with voting, as if that is the only measure of participation. It's not- look at our different countries and cultures, the different histories of the world in the past 2000 years. It makes a difference and how we move in our culture makes a difference. God put us in these places and times.
You totally misunderstood my post if you think it was about 'voting.' That was just an off comment I made at the end, though it was made in jest to somebody's comment about mowing and splitting wood, I certainly was serious. No this whole thread is about coming out of babylon - worldliness. Voting would only comprise a teeny tiny part of that.
What I was focusing on was how much every aspect of this world is corrupt, and that we must make distinctions in how we live in this world. Yes God has placed all His chosen exactly where He wanted them to live throughout the centuries in differing life situations, but every single one had their own set of worldly circumstances to overcome. We choose what to accept as godly living and participate in or not participate in ... certainly we realize that to come out and be separate means we must make distinctions in what we go along with in this world, above and beyond obvious sin (murder, stealing, adultery, coveting)? It's more about knowing how to distinguish the more subtle 'worldly' things that are of no avail and can be a hindrance to our spiritual growth.
It's not about revoking our citizenship to the country we live is, and yes we do pay our dues/taxes to live in our countries. We have the Word of God with numerous Scripture (many that have been presented here) that tells us to forsake worldliness... I don't believe this is just speaking of being 'spiritual,' but certainly that is part of it. But just as our actions are a witness to our beliefs, so is what we choose not to do. If we can't be distinguished from everybody else in the world or we really living godly?
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
v. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
1John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
v. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks for your reply Kat.. (Your reply in bold)
My way of looking at the symbolism in prophecies is that they are not specific about a person, place or thing, but rather a way of speaking in general terms.
Ray gave us what some of these symbols, the woman - church, there in Revelation 17 is riding a beast.
Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was controlled by blasphemy. It had seven heads and ten horns. (ISV)
Rev 17:18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
Notice that the beast has seven (7) heads... Ray spoke of this number 7 in relation to the 7 churches meaning completeness in his LoF article #7 'Church Heresy Came Long Before Bible Errors.'
Rev 17:9 This calls for a mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is sitting. They are also seven kings.
So we have 7 heads, that are 7 kings, that are 7 mountains on this beast that the woman rides... it seems to me this is speaking of all (the complete) carnal, corrupt world's governments of this age. It's the church and state, all the kings/rulers/presidents/dictators/czars/Popes/Archbishop or whatever, these are the mountains, the high ruling places/governments of the world in this age - this is the completely picture of what it's all about. All the religious rulers and all the national governments are in bed together, so to speak, but they are not friends, they more like hate each other, because they are both highly ambitious and sinister and they manipulate (I can't think of enough derogatory terms to use), but they wreak havoc with impunity.
This is the world we live in, both the governing body - those that make policy and laws that direct society and the religious leaders - those that direct to moral code of the citizens, are corrupt through and through and are working together to gain all the carnal worldly pleasures they can get, at the expense of the general populace. That's just the way of this age and nothing will/can change it until Christ returns.
(My question)
Rev 17:8 says... "The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."
So if the beast and all it's heads are the religious/political/carnal corrupt constructs that govern the world we live in, then what does it mean that it "once was, now is not, and yet will come"?
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largeli, actually, as Ray had explained it, the beast is this carnal human nature that exists in all people. The religious/political system of this age is more like what we think of as babylon, though it certainly is deserving depicted as a beast.
Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
I believe that this beast that "once was, now is not, and yet will come" in verse 8 is speaking of the corrupt carnal human nature that often exhibits itself in wickedness and speaking at any point in this age it exist in the past, the present and the future of this age. And yes of course the whole world - all it's inhabitants from the beginning of creation, will be "astonished" when they finally realize (in the next age) that they all have that brute beast nature and that includes everybody past, present and future of this age.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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largeli, actually, as Ray had explained it, the beast is this carnal human nature that exists in all people. The religious/political system of this age is more like what we think of as babylon, though it certainly is deserving depicted as a beast.
Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
I believe that this beast that "once was, now is not, and yet will come" in verse 8 is speaking of the corrupt carnal human nature that often exhibits itself in wickedness and speaking at any point in this age it exist in the past, the present and the future of this age. And yes of course the whole world - all it's inhabitants from the beginning of creation, will be "astonished" when they finally realize (in the next age) that they all have that brute beast nature and that includes everybody past, present and future of this age.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Awesome thanks Kat
So the beast is us... Or at least was in us. Or perhaps is in us now. But since everyone is right in their own eyes , naturally no one thinks the beast is in them now hence the "now is not".
So when it says the beast " once was , now is not, and yet will come again" could this mean that as we look at the past, whether we look at the history of the world or whether we're looking at the history of our own lives, we would like to think we are no longer living as beasts?
For example I can look back at my own history and think of things I used to do that were 'beast-like' as in the carnal/corrupt nature... But naturally today I could be deceived into believing that all that carnal/corrupt living was... But now is not. Perhaps I would be very astonished to realize (in the future) that the beast in me had actually been alive and kicking this whole time!
How astonished I will be in the day of judgement to see that the beast once was, now is not (according to my carnal judgement), but to my surprise, the beast never left! So to me it was a thing of the past, then I was deceived into believing that the beast was no more (in me), but it may be revealed to me in judgement that it actually never left, hence it "yet will come" meaning that it is revealed to me that while I thought it was gone, low and behold it is back. But in reality it never left me.
Does this make sense? Am I way off?
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So Kat, when you don't mean it just let me know.
Besides that, I follow and agree with you.
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Jesus slays the beast within us when He lives in the Temple of our heart. The beast cannot live when we know there is no free will, but God rules. The beast can only live when it thinks it has the free will to decide things.
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John from Kentucky -
Interesting statements:
Jesus slays the beast within us when He lives in the Temple of our heart. The beast cannot live when we know there is no free will, but God rules. The beast can only live when it thinks it has the free will to decide things.
As you, and others know, I struggle with the 'sin' issue - when we are in Christ.
Permit me to ask you a few questions about your statements please, for my own understanding in establishing His Truths (for my own life and peace of mind):
1. Jesus slays the beast within us when He lives in the Temple of our heart.
If Jesus lives in my Temple of my Heart, and my beast has been slain - who am I? Am I His New Creation? Does His New Creation sin?
2. The beast cannot live when we know there is no free will, but God rules.
I know that I have no free will, and that God is Sovereign - so if my beast is slain and can no longer live - is it possible for me to still sin (after all a dead thing cannot do anything)?
3. The beast can only live when it thinks it has the free will to decide things.
I know that I have no free will, so the beast that was me, or was in me, or was a part of me - can no longer live (and is in fact dead) - so does this mean that the only part of me that is left, is His New Creation, that does not, and cannot sin?
If all your statements above are all true, and focusing on 'sin' - the only way this makes any sense to me, as His New Creation cannot sin, is for 'my beast' to still be alive; but if I am always mindful that I have no free will, and that He is Sovereign, 'my beast' is dead, and remains dead.
Thank You.
Kind Regards.
George
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George,
The Scriptures teach all humans sin until the day we die. "There are none perfect, no not one".
It is not just what we do, it is who we are. We are physical. We were designed to sin automatically.
For most the beast within rules because it thinks it can freely decide to do good or evil.
But when Jesus converts us, we know there is no free will and God rules.
But we will all sin until the Spiritual resurrection from the dead when we will be like the wind, when we will be spiritually strong enough to not sin.
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Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Rev_13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him (the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 19:19-20
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 8:21 21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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Jesus slays the beast within us when He lives in the Temple of our heart. The beast cannot live when we know there is no free will, but God rules. The beast can only live when it thinks it has the free will to decide things.
The beast 'was, now is not, yet will come again.'
What does this mean in regards to free will? People have always believed in free will so what does 'now is not, yet will come again' mean?