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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mharrell08 on November 24, 2008, 02:18:40 AM
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Exo 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?
Exo 14:11-12 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.
Exo 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
"Cry aloud, spare not, lift up your voice like a trumpet, and show MY PEOPLE their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins" (Isa. 58:1).
There has been a lot of murmuring and complaining on this forum lately in the same fashion as the stubborn children of Israel in the wilderness. While some choose to voice like a trumpet to these members who look wistfully back to Egypt, others choose to help them polish these idols of the heart and tell them how wonderful they are. This is wrong. Why do we continue to stroke their egos when instead helping them understand the correction that has been presented to them?
Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 13:18-22 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matt 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Listen, those who keep idols of the heart will always be the ones who are 'easily offended'. It has nothing to do with the 'way the message was said' but rather the message of truth itself is what these members have a problem with. They wish to worship the Father 'their way' not in spirit and in truth.
Though they apologize profusely again and again, there acts of repentance are a sham as they continue to worship their idols of their hearts and tell you 'don't judge me!'
2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Lev 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
What fellowship does light have with darkness? Or believers with nonbelievers? These conflicts are of Satan as Joe pointed out previously and the means are believers being yoked together with unbelievers. And because of this, which Paul admonishes us NOT to do, we have ongoing conflicts. It's not a matter of one stating 'Well, I am not as learned as you'. That has nothing to do with it and I am tired of hearing that lame excuse. It is a matter of being humble, being teachable, and giving up these idols of the heart.
Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Job 20:5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?
Isa 57:21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
So there is no confusion: If you DO NOT want to give up these idols of YOUR HEART after multiple members continue to point them out, you have no business here! Your presence will only cause strife and chaos. If you DO want to give up these idols of the heart, stop putting it back together after the Word of God smashes it into a thousand pieces. This has gone on long enough but we all need to put our foot down. Otherwise, this forum will be the redundant, unfruitful, chaotic mess where it is headed.
Thanks,
Marques
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What Idols are you speaking of exactly?
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Neh 9:15 And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.
We need to focus on posessing the land.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;
We need to focus on the word and adide in it.
As Ray wrote
We have clearly seen that Jesus kept the real meaning and truths of His teaching from the masses, the church leaders, His disciples and even His apostles. Late in Christ’s ministry, we are told that:
"And they understood NONE OF THESE THINGS: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the THINGS WHICH WERE SPOKEN" (Luke 18:34).
But after His resurrection, Luke tells us that:
"THEN opened He their understanding, that they might understand THE SCRIPTURES: (Luke 24:45).
We need to study and pray that all will have our eyes open for His revelations
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Most importanly, we need to
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
beloved
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What Idols are you speaking of exactly?
Excerpt from LOF series #14:
others make an idol of the heart out of Christian Politics;
others make an idol of the heart out of their own church affiliation or pastor or choir or a plethora of church activities; (and how they 'hated it all' and make is seem they had a hand in God dragging them out)
others (many) make an idol of the heart out of some pet, little-understood and little-believed Bible prophecy, which only they understand;
others make an idol of the heart out of much speaking using spiritually-sounding words and phrases (of which they understand little or nothing);
and others just flat out worship themselves
While others wish to discuss 'chosen', 'Elect', 1st and 2nd resurrection, etc. not in accord with Ray's teachings or the scriptures, just their own carnal reasonings and understandings. If you wish to see these things for yourself, look through the first 2-3 pages of General Discussions, particularly ones with multiple pages.
Thanks,
Marques
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What Idols are you speaking of exactly?
Here are some more exact examples:
1. Some create idols of the heart by disregarding the scriptures and Ray's teachings regarding one verse interpreting itself. These members will continue to insist 1 verse has a different meaning than the rest of the scriptures all together. 2 Pet 1:20 ...that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Matt 18:16 ...in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2. Some create idols of the heart by either stating and/or implying they are of the chosen or that God cannot make them into the chosen. Both of these sentiments demean the very words of our Lord who stated it is He who does the choosing and nothing is too hard for God. John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you... Matt 19:26 ...with God all things are possible.
3. Some create idols of the heart by continuing to insist that political and social events are a sign of the Lord's judgments on the House of God going on now. Judgement brings about righteousness and is spiritual...Christ & His judgement comes to US 'quickly' not those of the world. Isa 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit. Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly...
4. Some create idols of the heart by creating numerous posts that have nothing to do with scriptures and/or Ray's teachings but are a means to say 'Look at me'. They treat the General Discussions as a personal blog with complete disregard for anyone else looking for spiritual truths...not commentary that borders on heresy. 1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. 2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
5. Some create idols of the heart by bringing their carnal conversations of the world into the forum. Why are these members trying to find reasoning with the members of the world who have a different interpretation of the bible? We are not to cast our pearls before swine as they trample them and look to rear us into pieces. Matt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
6. Some create idols of the heart by using the excuse 'well, I'm still learning' to post heresy after heresy. The are not well learned in the teachings of Ray and neither do they want to be. They want to continue to hold on to false beliefs from the church with a death grip which is exactly what it is. 2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Tim 3:8-9 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
7. Others just flat out don't believe the scriptures and Ray's teachings when presented to them. They believe their own personal 'understanding' supercedes all. Matt 13:11-12 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
These verses are very plain...we are not to put up with this carnality at the expense of portraying a 'lovey-dovey' forum. We are not to speak 'smooth things' to tickle the ears of those who continue to resist the spirit and dwell in the flesh.
Thanks,
Marques
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Hello Marques.
I have read this thread and see you have made some great points. But after rereading this thread a few times I feel this thread is about bringing one under law, this is just my opinion my brother.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
If it were possible to lump everyone into the same identical spiritual understanding there would not be conflicts on the forum. If I may used the analogy of school grades one through twelve would a sophomore teacher expect the same from a fifth grade student?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Marques, I cannot answer for another only myself and as God shows me my failures and short coming in this life I can only identified with the publican.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
God has brought all of us to this forum with different personalities and backgrounds from the Unites States to China and in between. As our personalities differ so won’t the threads and responses also differ because we are at different spiritual areas in our walk with God.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Is it possible that there may be some here who are using deception?
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
As I’m contemplating on what you’re trying to covey, it brings to my understanding a perfect forum which is great. I think the only way to achieve this type of forum where everyone is on the same page is to allow membership to this forum after passing a test on all of Ray’s papers and of course is one receives less that a grade of 100% on the test then admittance to membership should be denied.
Now as long as everyone on the forum kept equal in knowledge with one another all would be well until just one of its members where to advance in knowledge over another member, then we would be back to square # 1 again.
I’m seeing much criticism in your thread about a brother or sister posting and replying in a way you do not approve of.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
We are all here to learn but some of us learn faster than others and I believe it takes one more time to loose their worldliness than another too. One can only grow at the rate God has determined and not by the determination of the believer or another forum member.
Marques, I have only expressed my opinion as you have expressed your opinion my brother, but what you have expressed to my understanding is putting one under law, especially those who’s understanding fall short of your understanding or Another’s.
IMHO
In God’s Love. Your friend and brother, Richard.
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Brothers and Sisters All,
Once again i will interject with hope that what i write does not cause strife but edifies all who
read it. One of The Fruits Of The Spirit is Longsuffering another is Patience; these two seem to
be most needed and least practiced by Believers when under fire (spiritual attack) in many instances.
Sometimes when conversing online most of what we want to convey is only being seen or at
least looked at on the visual level. Wisdom (Another Fruit) would tell us to ask for clarification
and then contemplate hard and long before answering. Since early in the morning of Sun 23rd
November there has been a series of rapidfire responses and counterfire to percieved attacks.
We the Believers are under attack in a very ferocious and devious way by mighty forces of
spiritual darkness intent on sowing discord and if possible to destroy any who may be weak.
It is time to circle the wagons and aim out not in, those that are weak need Cuddling and Love.
We are all here because we have been called and dragged against our will out of Egypt and then
enlightened. As Jesus Christ Is Saying: In as much as you have done it onto the least of these;
My Brothers (Children) you have done it unto me.
george.
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We are all here to learn but some of us learn faster than others and I believe it takes one more time to loose their worldliness than another too. One can only grow at the rate God has determined and not by the determination of the believer or another forum member.
Marques, I have only expressed my opinion as you have expressed your opinion my brother, but what you have expressed to my understanding is putting one under law, especially those who’s understanding fall short of your understanding or Another’s.
Richard, I don't understand how you missed these statements after reading and rereading this thread as you stated.
"It's not a matter of one stating 'Well, I am not as learned as you'. That has nothing to do with it and I am tired of hearing that lame excuse. It is a matter of being humble, being teachable, and giving up these idols of the heart."
"6. Some create idols of the heart by using the excuse 'well, I'm still learning' to post heresy after heresy. The are not well learned in the teachings of Ray and neither do they want to be. They want to continue to hold on to false beliefs from the church with a death grip which is exactly what it is. 2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Tim 3:8-9 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
This has nothing to do with 'being under law'. Your opinion is off-base and unfounded.
This thread is a call to all members to not look back to Egypt and speak out on those that do so. Not all members will understand this as they only give their idols of the heart full attention. I have explained this enough...either we are to edify (help and/or correct) one another or be edified (accept help and/or correction) from one another. If one does not fit one of these positions, they have no place here as their stubbornness only causes strife, conflict, and chaos. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?
Thanks,
Marques
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It is time to circle the wagons and aim out not in, those that are weak need Cuddling and Love.
No George...while your acts of peacekeeping have their place, this 'cuddling and love' only promotes those who wish to please the flesh.
Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
"These verses are very plain...we are not to put up with this carnality at the expense of portraying a 'lovey-dovey' forum. We are not to speak 'smooth things' to tickle the ears of those who continue to resist the spirit and dwell in the flesh."
Thanks,
Marques
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Few excerpts from 'Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes':
"I'm not sure why it is automatically assumed that if one sounds angry there is something wrong with his message. When speaking of immoral and evil things that hurt and deceive people, it behooves us to be ANGRY about such things. Anger does not have to be a sin. God’s anger is mentioned a couple of hundreds times in Scripture. Many of the teachings of the Church are not only evil, but they are stupid and foolish. Sarcasm is often the perfect exposer of stupidity."
WHEN LIGHT IS DARKNESS
"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore, your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light. But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the LIGHT that be in you is DARKNESS, how great is that darkness!" (Matt. 6:22-23).
What? If the LIGHT that be in you is DARKNESS? Isn’t that a little demeaning and sarcastic to say that even our own goodness is evil (dark)? This is not only an exaggeration; this is a physiological IMPOSSIBILITY! Yes, a "physiological" impossibility, but NOT A SPIRITUAL impossibility! Jesus is saying that even the supposed "goodness" (light) in us, is actually "evil." (darkness). How can that be? Because:
"…None is good, save One, that is , GOD" (Luke 18:19).
Maybe it is about time some of you started to feel a little anger toward all the spiritual swill and filth that is merchandised and peddled to the world in the name of Christianity! For those few, however, who are teaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, GOD BLESS YOU ONE AND ALL!
Marques
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Hi Marques.
I should have mentioned and I apologize for not having done so but it was with reply # 4 on your thread I felt was putting one under law.
I read your last reply on reply # 8 and you said this.
If one does not fit one of these positions, they have no place here as their stubbornness only causes strife, conflict, and chaos. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?
This statement is law to my understanding and this is just my opinion but to me it’s like saying unless one writes a thread or responds in a way I approve of then they have no place here.
Marques, you quote this scripture Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Would you give me a time limit on this scripture please?
How about this for learning, there is no hell, we do not have free will and God will save all eventually, when his judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness. It is physical first then spiritual, before eve took from the fruit of the tree of good and evil she already had lust of the eye lust of the flesh and the pride of life.
I could go on and on but Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Who are you directing this scripture too?
Marques, this is just my opinion like I said but I feel it’s about being put under law and not about edifying.
Marques, could you help me with my understanding with this statement you made which I’ll place below as I’m having a difficult time with it.
"It's not a matter of one stating 'Well, I am not as learned as you'. That has nothing to do with it and I am tired of hearing that lame excuse.
Thank you Marques for your response. :)
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Marques, I am sorry. Two years ago I had a huge stroke. I sometimes have trouble expressing myself. I believe all that Ray teaches only because God words teaches the truth. Joe, and Rodger and Indiana Bob, answered my qestion. I have love for the lost. They saw I had anxiety for them. Now, last time I read the Bible God loves the lost. I often go in and read Rays papers over and over. Now, while in Babylon I did not believe in tithe, I gave with my heart as new testament taught. I never had 10 percent to give any way. I never believed in the trinity. I got to questioning all there doctrines. Also, Love is the answer to every thing. Now, God is going to judge each individualy, but I do not think we know every ones heart. I do not want to go back to Babylon's teachings. But, I do have a heart that Loves all humanity. Could it be that God has put this in me. For, I believe it is one of the many traits of God. He acttualy sums ups his commandments as Love. God is love. Does he judge us because we are not where someone else might be. I am for showing truths.
Now, I believe in order to be chosen we have to have all those traits. I can't see God wanting any less. We are all running a race. Some are still at different pace and this is of Gods choosing. So, argue that with God. You are a young mand. Now, I am not saying you are but knowledge done is good, but also I said, that I did not express myself well. I gave you the reason. The Lord protected me Marques with a 109 temp and no paralysis from a stroke I had while suffering a deadly blood infection. Now, I hope we can all look at this as my mistake and forgiven and forget and love. Marques, I am humble it was all my fault. I don't like to cause division, never did it in Babylon and do not like to here. So, I will just read post and learn from them. I will not post until I understand or can express myself better.
In His Love,
Marlene
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I read your last reply on reply # 8 and you said this.
If one does not fit one of these positions, they have no place here as their stubbornness only causes strife, conflict, and chaos. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?
This statement is law to my understanding and this is just my opinion but to me it’s like saying unless one writes a thread or responds in a way I approve of then they have no place here.
Again, your opinion is off-base. My approval should be the least of a members' concerns. This is about having scriptures and Ray's teachings as a foundation in regarding fruitful discussions as that is why we are here...right? We are not here for vain babblings, are we? Or to mix spiritual truth with our carnal reasoning and understandings? I can't keep repeating the same thing again and again.
Marques, you quote this scripture Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Would you give me a time limit on this scripture please?
How about this for learning, there is no hell, we do not have free will and God will save all eventually, when his judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness. It is physical first then spiritual, before eve took from the fruit of the tree of good and evil she already had lust of the eye lust of the flesh and the pride of life.
I could go on and on but Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Who are you directing this scripture too?
In response to your patronizing question, I never stated there was a time limit when it comes to gaining any spiritual understanding. All scriptures is for EVERYONE "and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [2 Tim 3:16]. But there are members who repeat what they have heard from Ray and others here but then make comments that are contrary.
Marques, this is just my opinion like I said but I feel it’s about being put under law and not about edifying.
Marques, could you help me with my understanding with this statement you made which I’ll place below as I’m having a difficult time with it.
"It's not a matter of one stating 'Well, I am not as learned as you'. That has nothing to do with it and I am tired of hearing that lame excuse.
Richard, perhaps you should have reflected on the next statement after this one: "It is a matter of being humble, being teachable, and giving up these idols of the heart."
Richard, these phony acts of sincerity are as see-through as a window pane. Others may flock to you as you tickle their ears with smooth talk, but not I. Good day sir.
Marques
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Hi Marques,
You are taken a strong position here, but I see it as only beneficial for the forum. If we are all of the same spirit we will be able to see this truth, even if we may not be able to have a depth of understanding it. Just like in Ray's articles there is a wealth of deep spiritual knowledge there, but those just having their eyes opened can still recognize it as truth. Even though they may not understand the deep spiritual meaning in the articles for some time.
We are here because we are seeking the truth, either you will unite with the teachings that are being promoted here or we won't. We have always welcomed questions here, it's when the questioner does not want the answers they gets that there might be strife. We do need to consider what a great privilege it is to be here and to share this wonderful truth.
1Co 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
v. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification.
v. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
v. 9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,"
v. 10 God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
v. 11 For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
v. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
v. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
v. 14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
v. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
v. 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Everyone,
In a couple of the most recent threads I started (Jonah's Gourd & Peaceful Oasis) the point I was attempting to convey is that there is no place of undefiled, perfect fellowship anywhere, period. There never has been either, yes, for a very short period of time during the Former Rain the early church had this experience of a single purpose of mind but then there was this bit of faithlessness (is that a word?) on the part of Ananias & Sapphira (Acts 5) and then the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7) where we see many fleeing with a fearful spirit.
Many who "stumble" onto Bible Truths come to the Forum with unreal expectations (I know I did) that this would be one happy family merrily learning and sharing together with no strife, no divisons, no controversies. Well let me say from 3 1/2 years of experience that this has never been the case, some periods are more peaceful than others but the bottom line is not how we perceive others who might actually desire strife but how we ourselves as individuals react to it. Do we run, do we challenge and accuse, do we seek understanding, how do we respond?
Over the years it has become intensely apparent that this is indeed a One on one walk with our Lord, I have mentioned this probably hundreds (literally) of times over the years. The Lord will use our interactions to purge us, judge us and eventually to perfect us. We are a spiritual family and household, who will be the ones who cause us the most grief, who are the ones we should really show the most nurturing toward?
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
It ain't an easy journey Brothers and Sisters!
Peace,
Joe
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Marques.
I see now you stand in judgment of me and you say now I’m also a phony whom you can see through.
These are your words to me Marques and I’ll put them below.
Richard, these phony acts of sincerity are as see-through as a window pane. Others may flock to you as you tickle their ears with smooth talk, but not I. Good day sir.Marques, I forgive you for this statement but be careful you don’t turn into another Jim Jones with your much learning my friend because all I’m seeing from you is self righteousness not the righteousness that comes from the righteousness of God.
Marques, I think you have a chip on your shoulder my friend and are just in a bad mood today.
I agree to disagree with your thread (OUT OF EGYPT) which makes me wonder if your not still there.
God bless you Marques and have a wonderful day my friend and brother in the Lord.
Richard.
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Marques, I am sorry. Two years ago I had a huge stroke. I sometimes have trouble expressing myself. I believe all that Ray teaches only because God words teaches the truth. Joe, and Rodger and Indiana Bob, answered my qestion. I have love for the lost. They saw I had anxiety for them. Now, last time I read the Bible God loves the lost. I often go in and read Rays papers over and over. Now, while in Babylon I did not believe in tithe, I gave with my heart as new testament taught. I never had 10 percent to give any way. I never believed in the trinity. I got to questioning all there doctrines. Also, Love is the answer to every thing. Now, God is going to judge each individualy, but I do not think we know every ones heart. I do not want to go back to Babylon's teachings. But, I do have a heart that Loves all humanity. Could it be that God has put this in me. For, I believe it is one of the many traits of God. He acttualy sums ups his commandments as Love. God is love. Does he judge us because we are not where someone else might be. I am for showing truths.
Now, I believe in order to be chosen we have to have all those traits. I can't see God wanting any less. We are all running a race. Some are still at different pace and this is of Gods choosing. So, argue that with God. You are a young mand. Now, I am not saying you are but knowledge done is good, but also I said, that I did not express myself well. I gave you the reason. The Lord protected me Marques with a 109 temp and no paralysis from a stroke I had while suffering a deadly blood infection. Now, I hope we can all look at this as my mistake and forgiven and forget and love. Marques, I am humble it was all my fault. I don't like to cause division, never did it in Babylon and do not like to here. So, I will just read post and learn from them. I will not post until I understand or can express myself better.
In His Love,
Marlene
Dear Marlene,
Do not let the timing of this post consume you into thinking this is all about you. These postings are for everyone who has an ear to hear.
Now, for some tough love...this statement of yours: "Now, while in Babylon I did not believe in tithe, I gave with my heart as new testament taught. I never had 10 percent to give any way. I never believed in the trinity. I got to questioning all there doctrines."
There is no good in Babylon and when you hold onto the thought that you did so much good while in Babylon, that is an IDOL OF THE HEART. I am only stating this to help you recognize it and REPENT. This is not to 'bully you' or put you down. This is what the scriptures refer to when stating, 'Sound the trumpet...show my people their transgressions'...Isa 58:1. For if no one shows you (as you state Joe and others did previously) how you you know and repent? God states he uses the 'foolishness of preaching' to save people. This is that foolishness...so let us turn away from these idols, stop looking back to Egypt, and walk in Christ footsteps. That is what this thread is all about.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Marques, I am sorry. But, God did bring me out. Yes, I will repent I did not see them as idols of the heart. I sure there are plenty of idols of the heart. If, I might say one Idol I gave up was about Rev. All those teachings I had bought books about. One, day after reading Rays teachings on Rev. I got up and through all those stupid books away. I do want to grow and I know that God put this in me. I am not well Marques so I am not always best at my thinking.
I am sorry that I thouoght you were saying it just to me. Will you forgive me. I hope to learn more from you.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Many who "stumble" onto Bible Truths come to the Forum with unreal expectations (I know I did) that this would be one happy family merrily learning and sharing together with no strife, no divisons, no controversies. ?
Amen to that Joe.
In God's Love. Richard.
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What I hear Marques conveying to you is not that you didn’t perceive that God was leading you while you were in bablylon, you did indeed observe these things in your life (God working in you) But it was not your perception that established it or confirms it. It is by grace of God, the divine cause, (divine influence of God upon the heart, not your perceptibility (being able to see) nor by our perception of all the things that we have suffered and will suffer in this life. It is all of God.
For example the statement "Now, while in Babylon I did not believe in tithe“, If you did not believe in tithe while in babylon, it was not your perception of the belief in not tithing, it was by “the divine Grace of God” in you, not by you, that cause you to look at tithing in a way that the world does not.
“I gave with my heart as new testament taught“. It never was in you to give with your heart. It was the “the divine Grace of God” in you that cause you to give as the new testament taught while in Babylon. What ever good thing you find in yourself doing, it was never there by our ability to perceive it in us. It is there by God’s doing alone. To God be the Glory.
If everything that we are is by the “the divine Grace of God” in us, how is it we find ourselves wronged by others by the way that we perceive things (our way of thinking). If everything that we are has been given to us and not of our selves, by whose standards have we been wronged. Ours? It never was by us or in us to begin with. It never was by our standards which can be subject to rejection and hurt. Every Godly standard that we experience in our life was all of God, in God and thru God from the beginning.
All that Marques has posted is of God’s standards, not his.
Rick
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Wonderfully said Rick....... now this post goes into me study notes....
Thank God for the Grace , bestowed on each of us to share this Bread of life, of the Word of God, amonst our Fellowship.
Peace
Rodger
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Hello Rodger.
The word of God does not say let it go but if you have a problem with your brother go and talk to him. ???
I agree to disagree with this thread out of Egypt as it’s a thread trying to put one under law. ;D
Marques said I’m a phony and I forgive him for that statement because I know only God knows one’s heart and not Marques or anyone for that matter. :)
Why not the reader of any thread just click off that thread if it is offensive to that one or they don’t approve of what’s being discussed and move on to the next thread? ???
Talk about the pride of life, whom amongst us here has lost all claims to carnality? ;)
Rodger, I did let this go on reply #19 Have a wonderful day Rodger and God bless you as He blesses us all. :)
In God’s Love, your brother and friend. Richard.
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Marques.
I see now you stand in judgment of me and you say now I’m also a phony whom you can see through.
From earlier:
Though they apologize profusely again and again, there acts of repentance are a sham as they continue to worship their idols of their hearts and tell you 'don't judge me!'
So there is no confusion: If you DO NOT want to give up these idols of YOUR HEART after multiple members continue to point them out, you have no business here! Your presence will only cause strife and chaos. If you DO want to give up these idols of the heart, stop putting it back together after the Word of God smashes it into a thousand pieces.
Marques
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I have a question and I do hesitate to even post. I know I will be judged, trashed or condemn. But I will anyway. When one uses the excuse of I'm still learning, since when do we stop learning? Is this an excuse? When one does not understand something they read of Ray's paper and have many questions are they not a humble person are not teachable because they asked the same question over and over. Maby they just don't get it. Maby on the 3rd time it hits them as God uses someone here to explain differently. Just as in reading the scriptures we all know it takes many time reading the same scripture over and over untill God reavels to us its meaning. ( I should say some of us). This however doesn't mean one is not teachable or not humble. If someone dosen't understand and are afraid to ask because they already asked and are afraid of being judged how is that showing love and longsuffering? If one is sincerly searching for ansewers should they not be allowed to asked as many times as it takes for understand without worrying about being judged? Ok let me have it.
Darren
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I have a question and I do hesitate to even post. I know I will be judged, trashed or condemn. But I will anyway. When one uses the excuse of I'm still learning, since when do we stop learning? Is this an excuse? When one does not understand something they read of Ray's paper and have many questions are they not a humble person are not teachable because they asked the same question over and over. Maby they just don't get it. Maby on the 3rd time it hits them as God uses someone here to explain differently. Just as in reading the scriptures we all know it takes many time reading the same scripture over and over untill God reavels to us its meaning. ( I should say some of us). This however doesn't mean one is not teachable or not humble. If someone dosen't understand and are afraid to ask because they already asked and are afraid of being judged how is that showing love and longsuffering? If one is sincerly searching for ansewers should they not be allowed to asked as many times as it takes for understand without worrying about being judged? Ok let me have it.
Darren
Hello Darren,
There is certainly nothing wrong with asking questions. What is a problem is if one asks questions seeking spiritual truths, given answers by multiple members, and then refusing to accept the truth as they only wanted an answer to fit their beliefs. These members seek to have the Word confirm their beliefs without realizing that it is us who need to be conformed to the doctrines of Christ [John 7:16].
We should never be fearful of asking a question...but we also cannot be fearful to look inward and realizing WE need to change and look to Christ for this.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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“There has been a lot of murmuring and complaining on this forum lately in the same fashion as the stubborn children of Israel in the wilderness. While some choose to voice like a trumpet to these members who look wistfully back to Egypt, others choose to help them polish these idols of the heart and tell them how wonderful they are. This is wrong. Why do we continue to stroke their egos when instead helping them understand the correction that has been presented to them?
Listen, those who keep idols of the heart will always be the ones who are 'easily offended'. It has nothing to do with the 'way the message was said' but rather the message of truth itself is what these members have a problem with. They wish to worship the Father 'their way' not in spirit and in truth.
Though they apologize profusely again and again, there acts of repentance are a sham as they continue to worship their idols of their hearts and tell you 'don't judge me!'
What fellowship does light have with darkness? Or believers with nonbelievers? These conflicts are of Satan as Joe pointed out previously and the means are believers being yoked together with unbelievers. And because of this, which Paul admonishes us NOT to do, we have ongoing conflicts. It's not a matter of one stating 'Well, I am not as learned as you'. That has nothing to do with it and I am tired of hearing that lame excuse. It is a matter of being humble, being teachable, and giving up these idols of the heart.
So there is no confusion: If you DO NOT want to give up these idols of YOUR HEART after multiple members continue to point them out, you have no business here! Your presence will only cause strife and chaos. If you DO want to give up these idols of the heart, stop putting it back together after the Word of God smashes it into a thousand pieces. This has gone on long enough but we all need to put our foot down. Otherwise, this forum will be the redundant, unfruitful, chaotic mess where it is headed.
Thanks,
Marques”
*>*>*>
In the first post of this topic the above words are the only words Marques penned. The rest of the post contained scripture. As I see it, it’s about “idols of the heart”. I see that as the main thrust, or point, Marques was making.
He did use specifics. But. He didn’t point any fingers. He didn’t mention names.
How now that some members have stepped forward to challenge Marques and claim error? Where lays the error? With Marques because he sees an opportunity to bring to light a reflection of idols in our midst? So Marques is now pronounced guilty of error?
Not hardly.
Ask yourself this question: Am I guilty of the idols he speaks? If you feel you are, work it out, quietly. And, honestly, (and it’s just me) but you should really thank Marques if that is the case. Not condemn him. If you feel you aren't guilty, even by association or intent of heart at times, then why defend yourself and find fault with Marques and his post.
Craig said something the other day and it hit home solid with me, and I’ll paraphrase it (I’m on dial up, it would take hours to find it), but, the gist was “sometimes a posters words contribute nothing to a post). Well, that may as well speak to me now perhaps, but so be it.
But so you know, I asked myself the same question this morning when I read the post: “Am I guilty of that which Marques speaks.” The answer came back a resounding YES. But I hold no ill to Marques. When I said “thank you Marques” earlier, I meant it.
So again, for those who have found contempt, even a little, perhaps it is best to recoil and give this matter some time to work it’s way through without so much a tittle of condemnation for one of our own.
Best.
A.
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Darren,
You are so brave. I have been reading this thread, holding back tears and feeling physically ill because I have no where to go if I leave this forum. However, the forum has become useless to me for the reasons you state in your post. I am afraid (yes, I know it's a sin to be timid and fearful), I have so many questions regarding Ray's papers but I don't want to be "labeled" unteachable, or carnal or having idols of the heart (as we all do) and like you said, I have read them over and over and over and still don't see some of the things that Ray even says are so "simple". I just say to myself, I guess God does not want me to see it yet. When they asked why I wanted to join the forum this is what I said:
My reason for wanting to Join is that sometimes I have questions that I know Ray is too busy to answer, so I thought I could get a better understanding on the Forum.
And they let me join. Perhaps they shouldn't have.
Anyway Darren, thanks for you courage, I am sure I am not the only one that echoes your sentiments.
Eileen
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Marques I agree if one is asking the same question over and over and all they are doing is trying to find an ansewer that fits their beliefs then they are in the wrong place. Most us us here are here for the truth according to God's word. We are(most) like minded and we are a family searching for understanding. No one should be afraid or timied when it comes to questions. What one person finds simply the other might not. We are all on different levels of understanding and we all should treat one another accordingly. Don't you agree? once again I have to apoligize for my spelling. I don't know why my spell check does not work.
Darren
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What Idols are you speaking of exactly?
Here are some more exact examples:
1. Some create idols of the heart by disregarding the scriptures and Ray's teachings regarding one verse interpreting itself. These members will continue to insist 1 verse has a different meaning than the rest of the scriptures all together. 2 Pet 1:20 ...that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Matt 18:16 ...in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2. Some create idols of the heart by either stating and/or implying they are of the chosen or that God cannot make them into the chosen. Both of these sentiments demean the very words of our Lord who stated it is He who does the choosing and nothing is too hard for God. John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you... Matt 19:26 ...with God all things are possible.
3. Some create idols of the heart by continuing to insist that political and social events are a sign of the Lord's judgments on the House of God going on now. Judgement brings about righteousness and is spiritual...Christ & His judgement comes to US 'quickly' not those of the world. Isa 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit. Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly...
4. Some create idols of the heart by creating numerous posts that have nothing to do with scriptures and/or Ray's teachings but are a means to say 'Look at me'. They treat the General Discussions as a personal blog with complete disregard for anyone else looking for spiritual truths...not commentary that borders on heresy. 1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. 2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
5. Some create idols of the heart by bringing their carnal conversations of the world into the forum. Why are these members trying to find reasoning with the members of the world who have a different interpretation of the bible? We are not to cast our pearls before swine as they trample them and look to rear us into pieces. Matt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
6. Some create idols of the heart by using the excuse 'well, I'm still learning' to post heresy after heresy. The are not well learned in the teachings of Ray and neither do they want to be. They want to continue to hold on to false beliefs from the church with a death grip which is exactly what it is. 2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Tim 3:8-9 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
7. Others just flat out don't believe the scriptures and Ray's teachings when presented to them. They believe their own personal 'understanding' supercedes all. Matt 13:11-12 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
These verses are very plain...we are not to put up with this carnality at the expense of portraying a 'lovey-dovey' forum. We are not to speak 'smooth things' to tickle the ears of those who continue to resist the spirit and dwell in the flesh.
Thanks,
Marques
Hello Rodger, my brother in Christ.
I have let this thread go but on the contrary I see you have not Rodger. If you agree with Marques that is fine with me.
If you agree with Marques on these laws he has set fourth for all to adhere to them obey them.
If you believe everyone is at the same spiritual level as you and Marques your are both greatly deceived.
If I were thinking about becoming a member on this forum and read what Marques wrote on reply # four of this thread I would still be in Babylon.
Lord knows brother Marques needs your help in trying to sell this sort of stuff.
God bless you both and have a wonderful evening and a good day. :)
Your friend and brother in Christ, Richard.
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Darren bro,
Talk to your Father and ask Him.
You won't find what you're looking for in the eyes or minds of humans.
This is your relationship with God,
draw close to Him and He will comfort you.
Peace and understanding
Randy
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Darren,
If something is hard for you to understand sometimes you have to let it go and keep studying and asking God to enlighten you with the answer. It will come when you are ready to understand it. Randy had good advice. Only God can give you the answers in His time it doesn't have to come from any human.
Please find peace,
Kathy :)
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Rodger.
Those are your words Rodger, I’m calling you out, I don’t think like that, I’m not calling you out Rodger, just simply responding to what your saying to me, that’s all my friend. :)
God bless you, In God’s Love. Richard.
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Eileen, My dear, never give up on God. He chooses our understanding. He directs our paths. I still read Rays papers and I keep finding thing that I never saw at first. As, long as we ask the Holy Spirit to guide our understanding. He will. He might even use something in your journey of life. Then that scripture might just pop out. Keep the faith. He is faithful to us. Also, read the Bible . I like to take a Chapter and slowly study it. I also, know he trains us in our life experiences. It is all of God.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Thank you Marlene. You are so very right. Sometimes all it takes are a few words of encouragement and I thank you for that from the bottom of my heart.
Eileen
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Kathy I couldn't agree more. I don't look for ansewers in humans I believe God uses man anyway He wants and If the ansewers come from God through man than so be it. My Father and I always talk. So Thats roger for the advice but I didn't need it. I have a very good relationship with my Father. I look only to Him for ansewers. Like I said those ansewers could come by God through man. I'm always listening.
Darren
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To all who are timid or afraid to speak up, please know that you can use the PM to any member that you need to converse
with. My information is there for PM anytime as are i am sure any of the members on this forum. We can sometimes get too
caught up polishing our idol and wanting to get the last word in to remember; All IS OF GOD. Cheer up, chin up, read the
Scriptures, study Rays writings, listen to the mp3s and watch the videos. Study to become knowledgeable in the word and
always Pray for discernment of The Word; They Are Spirit And They Are Truth. Well back to study and lurking for me, i will
be heading home now but be on here later this evening.
Love Patience Study and Longsuffering brothers and sisters.
george.
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Great Darren,
Now biuld on what God has shown you and then when looking at that it becaomes stronger in understanding.
Just like Ray said God made the world in a very long period of time as the bible shows us.
Some of us have many years of studing and some not but everyone adds their lot to the forum.
Above All is LOVE and without love then we have NOTHING!!!
Timothy is a great book for all at all times.
Peace and understanding
Randy
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Darren,
You are so brave. I have been reading this thread, holding back tears and feeling physically ill because I have no where to go if I leave this forum. However, the forum has become useless to me for the reasons you state in your post. I am afraid (yes, I know it's a sin to be timid and fearful), I have so many questions regarding Ray's papers but I don't want to be "labeled" unteachable, or carnal or having idols of the heart (as we all do) and like you said, I have read them over and over and over and still don't see some of the things that Ray even says are so "simple". I just say to myself, I guess God does not want me to see it yet. When they asked why I wanted to join the forum this is what I said:
My reason for wanting to Join is that sometimes I have questions that I know Ray is too busy to answer, so I thought I could get a better understanding on the Forum.
And they let me join. Perhaps they shouldn't have.
Anyway Darren, thanks for you courage, I am sure I am not the only one that echoes your sentiments.
Eileen
Eileen,
No where is it stated on this thread that it is wrong to ask questions.
From earlier:
"There is certainly nothing wrong with asking questions. What is a problem is if one asks questions seeking spiritual truths, given answers by multiple members, and then refusing to accept the truth as they only wanted an answer to fit their beliefs. These members seek to have the Word confirm their beliefs without realizing that it is us who need to be conformed to the doctrines of Christ [John 7:16].
We should never be fearful of asking a question...but we also cannot be fearful to look inward and realizing WE need to change and look to Christ for this."
What part of 'nothing wrong with asking questions' did you not understand?
'Holding back tears and being physically ill'? Did the scriptures referenced offend you so?
Marques
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Ok maybe we can have a on line bible study.
Maybe start with Rays LOF papers and take it chapter by chapter.
I know some don't need this but I think others Do.
If you guys think this is a good idea, then maybe we can arrage something here or another child forum ( or aol private chat or something) for deeper studies.
That way the ones with questions can ask them chapter by chapter.
I know its lots of work but if we can do this, many hands make the workload light.
I don;t know but I think something should be done.
I Don't want to step on any toes.
Comments welcomed.
Randy
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Rick, I did not express myself well again. I know it was not of me. I never have thought there was any good in me. If, not for him I would more than likely be a mass murder or god knows what else. God makes some for honor and dishonor. Anything, that is good is all of God. I never thought it was of me. Hope this clears it up. As, I stated before sometimes I am not clear. I just want to be made in his image, and he is doing it. It Comforts me when I see him doing it in me. It makes me trust him and that makes me labor and that makes me want to run he knows how to teach me. I was just saying even while lost in Babylon he was leading me. He was taking me on my journey. He was and is teaching me. There is plenty for him to teach me. I just want to keep in the race and that want is all his.
In His Love,
Marlene
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I would say let me throw my two cents in ,but i like 13 dollars having 37 cents. I would like to give a parable here, a man that haveth 2 eyes an 2 ears but haveth only one of these is like a man who writes a check that his donkey can,t cash.... I noticed the title of this topic is out of egypt ,sounds like to me sum here needs a GSP to get out (GODS SALVATION PLAN) PAY ATTENTION GRASS HOPPER thought i would try to break the ice here put a smile on someones face tonight. now dont let me have to come back in here..... lol luv ya,ll and B.T. NOW YA,LL PLAY PRETTY. PEACE RAY-RAY
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Ray-Ray,
Does that mean Watch more, Listen more, AND TALK LESS? Got it!! Or maybe TYPE less?
Well, I'M smiling! :D :D
Kathy ;)
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Darren,
You are so brave. I have been reading this thread, holding back tears and feeling physically ill because I have no where to go if I leave this forum. However, the forum has become useless to me for the reasons you state in your post. I am afraid (yes, I know it's a sin to be timid and fearful), I have so many questions regarding Ray's papers but I don't want to be "labeled" unteachable, or carnal or having idols of the heart (as we all do) and like you said, I have read them over and over and over and still don't see some of the things that Ray even says are so "simple". I just say to myself, I guess God does not want me to see it yet. When they asked why I wanted to join the forum this is what I said:
My reason for wanting to Join is that sometimes I have questions that I know Ray is too busy to answer, so I thought I could get a better understanding on the Forum.
And they let me join. Perhaps they shouldn't have.
Anyway Darren, thanks for you courage, I am sure I am not the only one that echoes your sentiments.
Eileen
Eileen,
No where is it stated on this thread that it is wrong to ask questions.
From earlier:
"There is certainly nothing wrong with asking questions. What is a problem is if one asks questions seeking spiritual truths, given answers by multiple members, and then refusing to accept the truth as they only wanted an answer to fit their beliefs. These members seek to have the Word confirm their beliefs without realizing that it is us who need to be conformed to the doctrines of Christ [John 7:16].
We should never be fearful of asking a question...but we also cannot be fearful to look inward and realizing WE need to change and look to Christ for this."
What part of 'nothing wrong with asking questions' did you not understand?
'Holding back tears and being physically ill'? Did the scriptures referenced offend you so?
Marques
Hello brother Marques.
If you are wondering where Eileen might have got the impression she should not ask questions you might want to go back and read reply # 4 on your thread.
I believe you will find the answer there. I know you mean well my brother but it’s just not practical what you ask. It will be after the resurrection when perfection comes to us all.
I’m not trying to upset you or hurt you or belittle your ideas, please go back and read what you are asking on reply # 4. Maybe the angels in heaven can do as you ask but not human being who are being made in the image of God who are still learning.
You’re my brother in Christ and I love you as my brother in Christ and what you are asking is more than we or I can give IMHO.
What you ask sounds wonderful in a perfect world but we don’t live in a perfect world, that’s the problem I see.
God bless you Marques and all I ‘m asking is that you think about what your saying. I read your thread and I agree to disagree with the practicality of what you are asking and believe it to be harmful to those who might want to ask a question but won't out of fear of being ridiculed for not asking the right questions.
In Gods's Love. Richard.
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The original topic has been lost in the flood of personal feelings. Time to move on folks.
Rene'