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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sorin on March 13, 2007, 10:25:03 AM

Title: Preordained
Post by: Sorin on March 13, 2007, 10:25:03 AM
From the email section:


"Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?

Lee


Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.

God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."

Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli?  But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray"



-----------------------------------------


Ray's answer sounds as if we have free will, and God doesn't control everything, He just has a foreknowledge of the future. If God doesn't preordain certain sins, then isn't it possible to do or not do certain sins which are supposedly in His foreknowledge, in which case God would be mistaken? He thought we were going to do it, but we didn't, 'cause it's not preordained, therefore doesn't have to come to pass?

I don't have a problem with God not preordaining sins, but I don't see how that goes with us not having free will, and God working all things after the counsel of His own will. I understand we have a mind, and we can think, but if we don't have free will, our mind is made to think, and we are caused to will. Therefore, the littl girl rapist is caused to rape her. He did not do it freely, on his own without any causation because then that would mean he had freewill. Therefore, I find this concept of no free will,  yet, sins are not preordained to be confusing. ???

I believe, if we truly don't have free will, and if our lives are preordained, whether we'd be rich or poor, criminal or a law obiding citizen, gay, straight, or pedophile, then
someone like that little girl rapist was predestinated to rape little girls. That's why he is attracted to little girls, if he could have changed that, then you might say he can thwart God's plan for his life, no?  or are we to believe that God's plan and intention for this man's life was for him to be a law obiding, God fearing citizen, and he just freely chose on his own to rape little girls? Wouldn't that also be thwarting God's plan? But who has withstood His intention?


Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. {Did Pharaoh do some pretty bad things, yes, who has raised him up? ]

   Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth [{like little girl rapists hearts}.

   Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will {Should be intention, but still, who has resisted it}?




So yes, I'm pretty confused,
Sorin



Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: sansmile on March 13, 2007, 10:41:06 AM
Hi sorin,

But by having foreknowledge He KNOWS what choices we will make?
So He knows already what my choices (that He puts in front of me) wil be, wether good or bad?

Do you see what i mean??

God Bless Sandie
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Sorin on March 13, 2007, 10:48:55 AM
Hi sorin,

But by having foreknowledge He KNOWS what choices we will make?
So He knows already what my choices (that He puts in front of me) wil be, wether good or bad?

Do you see what i mean??

God Bless Sandie


Hi Sandie, yes I realize that. So now that begs the question, how does God know what we will do in the future, if He doesn't cause us to, or our sins are not preordained? I have a theory about that, we have a freewill, and God is outside of time, and can see into the future, because He is everywhere, past, present and future.
If we don't have free will, then we are caused to do things, everything we do has a causation, and that would include raping little girls. So then, how is it not preordained? How does the causation come about? Randomly? Then wouldn't it be fair to say that Randomness is working all things after the counsel of it's own will?

See, like I said, confusing.

Sorin


Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Kat on March 13, 2007, 11:29:34 AM

Hi Sorin,

I looked through Ray's email on free will and could not find one that addresses your question exactly.  But I found these that I think together pretty much cover your question. 
Because of there length I brought just the link to them.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=253.msg2134#msg2134

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Craig on March 13, 2007, 01:27:14 PM
Sorin,

Free will is the hardest thing to wrap our minds around that I have found.

God created us "sinning machines"  and "made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope"

If God created us this way then how could we react any differently.  Yes we have the ability to make choices, we do all the time, and we consider this "free will", but that is an illusion.

If we are created to respond to our own vain thoughts and actions we cannot help but follow through on those thoughts.  God lays down the gauntlet of life for us to overcome, but we cannot ever hope to overcome them by our own will or attempts.  When we realize what we are and cry out for God to lead us (remove our vain thoughts and reasoning) then we will make progress over our sins and actions.  The only thing we have to look toward to, wtih the faith that God gives us, is "hope".

Ray has said many times that we should thank God that we were not created with the same makeup and upbringing as Hitler, a child moletster, etc.  Because if we did we would respond the exact same way.

I am going to use the analogy of a computer (and no, I'm not saying we are God's "computers" or "puppets")  A computer makes thousands of choices a minute, but those choices are all programmed by the programmer.  If I want a computer to respond one way then I give it the input it needs to make the choice that I know it will.  It can't make any other choice, (out of thousands of choices it makes to get to the end), it will always end up were I wanted it to.  But a computer, unlike us, does not care why it chooses the way it does or feels good or bad over the choice.  We do, when God shows me my sin, that doesn't keep me from still sinning, but when I do it pains me and makes me cry out to God to take the place of that sin in my life.  And even if I don't, (and won't) overcome all the sin in my life I am given the hope of being perfected in Christ's image.

I believe the illusion of "free will" is so strong because many of us have will's that are also strong.  I can will myself to not ever commit adultry, and I may be successful all my life, but if I see a beautiful female, inside there is the turmoil of the struggle with the sin and my thoughts.  As long as that turmoil is there and my thoughts are of a carnal nature then as Christ alluded to, I am still guilty of adultry.  When the turmoil and thoughts are no longer there at all, then I have truelly overcome that sin, but it was not of my doing, it was all of God in me.

Now, God creates us subject to vanity and sin, and when we live this life on an earth that is also created the same way, with a billion people all created the same it is no problem for God to know what our choice will be when the appropriate action is put before us.

So take me back in time 60-70 years and put me in charge of the nazi's.  Would I respond the same as Hitler?  No I wouldn't, but put me in his shoes, his life growing up and give me the same choices that he made to get to where he ended up and I/we would do the same as him.

Clear as mud? :)  I'm sure for most my thoughts won't help at all, but it works for my feable brain, and even then I still struggle with these questions.

Blessings
Craig
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: JJ on March 13, 2007, 02:59:18 PM
Sorin,  I hope what Craig shared has helped untwist this hard concept. 

Craig,  thanks for sharing.  This really helped keep my head on the track of truth.

The understanding of these truths- no free-will-- God's sovereignty -  they
twist the mind to the point of pain, BUT  when it clicks, and we see that we
ARE capable of any beastly sin,  it is very freeing......   is this because the
Truth does set one free?

Very good example with adultry.  Some of us do have the strong-will power
(from the experience, training, background- and personality that God GAVE us)
to resist ACTING out this sin, but very few of us can be DEAD to the sin of
desire/thinking/considering....... in time, with age and exerience and the pain that
our sin causes, God motivates us to even resist the thinking part...... when will
that time come?   I want rid of my sin!!  I want rid of my pride!

Forgive me as I once again quote C.S. Lewis:

"The pleasure of pride is like the pleasure of scratching.  If there is an itch, one
does want to scratch; but it is nicer to have neither the itch nor the scratch.  As
long as we have the itch of self-regard we shall want the pleasure of self-approval,
but the happiest moments aer those when we forget our precious selves and have
neither but have everything else instead." 

self-regard or self-indulgence-- both selfish pleasures that are hard to shake.
and we as humans are loved by God, but not worthy of worship--- only the
One, True, Awesome, SinLESS, All-powerful, All-knowing, Totally loving and merciful
and just God of creation is worthy of worship and honor.   

when I think of His greatness and then realize my desire for self-regard and pleasure--
it  sickens me deeply-- to the point of begging God for release from my sin...... thus
the cycle begins, as Craig explained.

jayle

 
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 13, 2007, 04:52:42 PM
hello Sorin

I have volunteered been caused to answer your post.  :D My comments and how I understand this vast and wonderous subject you have opened up, is  in red. As already mentioned, the subject of free will is not easy! I can see and appreciate your effort to understand! I hope you will be further encouraged to really get a grasp on this awesome truth!

Ray's answer sounds as if we have free will,.... Where? How? Free will by Ray’s definition is the ability to act INDEPENDENTLY of God. Ref LOF 15 B  and God doesn't control everything,... Again, where? How? Ray says God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL. This is the theme of His teachings.  He just has a foreknowledge of the future. God doesn’t JUST have a foreknowledge of the future. God is not only omniscient He is also omnipotent. He is ALL knowing and ALL powerful. That is what makes Him God.   If God doesn't preordain certain sins,... God does not pre-ordain certain sins. There is no if about this. God does not authorise, or agree with or approve of sin. then isn't it possible to do or not do certain sins No it is not possible to do or not to do certain sins. We have no choice. God knows we will sin. He knows that we sin automatically. He knows which sin we will perform before we perform it. Mk 14:30 ...before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice..God knows us better than we know ourselves! which are supposedly in His foreknowledge, in which case God would be mistaken? Ray teaches that God has never made a mistake, changed His mind, been surprised by anything, knows everything that will happen before it happens because God is Sovereign. Ref Praying by God’s rules.   He thought we were going to do it, but we didn't, 'cause it's not preordained, therefore doesn't have to come to pass? Here is what you are saying and it is correct: God THOUGHT we were going to do it, but God did not ordain it so it did not happen. In other words, God prevents us from being as evil as we would be without His control and prevention. On our own we are carnal and evil. God knows this. Without God nothing good can come out of us that is why we need God to work on and in us which He does. So for God it is much more powerful than just a thought as you suggest. God doen't THINK we are going to sin. HE KNOWS IT!  

I don't have a problem with God not preordaining sins, but I don't see how that goes with us not having free will, There is no short cut. You have to think for hours and hours on what Ray has taught. Ray had to think for thousands of hours to get the revelation. and God working all things after the counsel of His own will. I understand we have a mind, and we can think, but if we don't have free will, our mind is made to think, and we are caused to will. Therefore, the littl girl rapist is caused to rape her. Correct. Any one can be the rapist. The point to watch for is that the rapist LIKES to rape and sin and enjoys  carnality until God begins to teach, chastise and train him to begin to loath his sins and eventually cry to God to deliver him from out of his wretchedness and bestiality.  He did not do it freely, on his own without any causation because then that would mean he had freewill. Correct. We are to be made to know evil just like God knows evil and in the image of His Son, to eventually be washed of all sins stains and made pure and sinless not because we have never sinned but because we are purified through the sin offering that Jesus has paid already. Therefore, I find this concept of no free will,  yet, sins are not preordained to be confusing.   God creates evil. Man’s carnality lusts to sin. Without evil there can be no sin. Eventually there will be no evil. Jesus Christ will save us all from sin and we will be made into the image of Christ. Evil is the process and sin and death will one day be no more when God will be all in all and death will be defeated.  

I believe, if we truly don't have free will, and if our lives are preordained, whether we'd be rich or poor, criminal or a law obiding citizen, gay, straight, or pedophile, then
someone like that little girl rapist was predestinated to rape little girls. That's why he is attracted to little girls, if he could have changed that, then you might say he can thwart God's plan for his life, no? Yes. For this reason we should be on our knees every day thanking God that He has not selected us to be a vessel for His wrath. We should be appreciating and perceiving God’s Grace Mercy and Unmerited Favor towards us and this should be aspiring us towards a spirit and soul of deep awe and knowledge of Gods power and plan to save all.   or are we to believe that God's plan and intention for this man's life was for him to be a law obiding, God fearing citizen, and he just freely chose on his own to rape little girls? No. We should not believe such unfounded unscriptural and unscientific nonsense.  Wouldn't that also be thwarting God's plan? No. That would be God giving  them over to a reprobate mind Rom 1 : 28  But who has withstood His intention? Non one as Ray teaches but everyone has gone against the will of God. Pharaoh did and we all do because we have all fallen short of God’s glory.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: andrevan on March 13, 2007, 11:50:51 PM
Hi Everyone.

I completely understand your dilemma Sorin.
I have been struggling with this preordained thing and sin ever since coming across Ray’s material. I cannot get my head around it completely ::). I agree with Ray and understand how we do not have a free will though.

I keep coming back to the following reasoning:
People’s actions (like child molestation) are caused by something either known or unknown to that person and other people.

Circumstances and causes bring a man to a situation where he then rapes a girl. Who brings about the causes? Who is the first cause? Who brought about the causes to make the man become lustful and cause him to rape?

Is God not the first cause, if God has Satan on a leash, then God is still the first cause is He not? God brought about the causes that hardened pharaoh’s heart, God brought about the causes that hardened the Jews’ hearts when Jesus taught them. God brings about the causes that cause a man to rape a girl. God is responsible is He not? We are accountable for our sins, but God is the one who brings about the causes that make us sin. It could not have been any other way for that man who rapes a girl, he was caused by circumstances.

I wish I could get my head around this. Ray’s second reply to that email did not go far enough for me. I know God does not sin, and He is not evil, but He still causes sin and evil through circumstances?

I know God understands my problem with this, hopefully He can use someone here to set me right. To me it is all about God’s causation.

God’s peace to you all.  :)
Andrevan.
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: stego on March 14, 2007, 03:02:26 AM
Hi Sorin,
    Well i must say i am very surprised by Ray's email response on this topic.  I think we cannot deny that God is the cause of the universe and everything and everyone in it, and has planned/dictated/ordained everything that has ever happened and will ever happen in the universe.  Sorin, I agree with you, his response doesn't make sense, and is not compatible with what he has previously said on this topic.  I think Ray would not deny that God planned from the very beginning that he would eat a girl scout cookie at exactly the time that Ray actually did eat a girl scout cookie.  And if God planned it, there was no way it would not happen because what God plans God also dictates and ordains to happen.  Ray has done an excellent job of explaining why God intended for us to experience evil, and a rapist is just another example of evil in action.  So there is nothing wrong with God intending for a rapist to rape someone, because such experiences of evil serve a much much greater purpose in the future.  So although Ray is correct that the scriptures don't specifically say that God ordains rapists, we know from other scripture that God is the cause of all evil.   There is nothing that has happened or will ever happen that God has not planned/ordained/dictated/intended to happen.  Anyways, I'm befuddled by Ray's response, but I have yet to be convinced that God has not ordained everything that has ever happened and will ever happened.   Maybe Ray believes the word "ordained" means something different then "To prearrange unalterably; predestine"   ???
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Brett on March 14, 2007, 03:36:50 AM
Well.............. :-\

I understand very well of Sorin's confusing and so was Lee. They have good points and so are Andrevan. I have to admit, I am confused, too. Not that I am confused in God’s words, but in e-mail.....  I have been holding and not to say anything for long time until I see e-mail section "Preordained". This is not the first time, I have seen several times. I though, "Oh no! Not again!" I still not want to say anything because I feel it will brush us off. I just finished study of "Lake of Fire Series: 'Myth of Free Will Exposed'" part b today, and now I start to study in part c in few pages. I though this letters of comments with scriptures are profound proof to me. Ray did very well matching scriptures to scriptures. I am so happy to know more deep. This stuff is very deep things to know the mystery of God. But, today with "Preordained" in the e-mail............ Gee! I don’t know............. I feared this would not pretty debating.

Anyway, I see all the happening in the world everyday, not just rape girls, many things happening, men dragged woman to death on the road in front of her children at the middle east, etc, etc, etc. Those things are difficult understand for me (maybe just barely little understand) of why this must happened. I hate to see terrible things in the world. But I know one thing, when we resurrection in the future, whether first or second, we will (and all mankind) finally understand of how and why God operated in this whole world for His own good. What good? To save all mankind. Heal all this sick, evil, pain, bitter, weep, etc, etc... and for His glory before us (Rom. 8:20). I have confidence at the resurrection. It will be good. We never considering of God is sick person (or disgusting). Joseph had trouble understand of why his brothers' evil things had to happen to him, then for long time, their brothers came to Joseph and finally he now see clearly of why God brought this happened was for His own good. For what happened? For He saved many from the starve to death. That was good! God will judge all mankind for what they have done, He will discipline, pruning, and they will learn God's truth.

Brett  :)
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 14, 2007, 05:28:22 AM
Hello everyone

Perhaps if we look at the myth of free will from another angle it might become clearer.

God created evil. God created a weak heart in man. A weak heart plus evil produces sin. God doesn’t approve of sin. He wants man to become like Him and not approve of sin either but that can not happen unless man experiences sin. So God is responsible for creating the circumstances in which man can not only EXPERIENCE sin, he is made with a weak heart so he can INDULGE in sin. And God saw that His creation is good. Why? Because we can not know good unless by contrast we know evil. We can not comprehend righteous unless we know sinfulness. It is good that God has created a contrast between sin and righteousness. He starts His creation off in an experience of carnality not because that is where God has purposed it to end. No. that is the start. The end is that man will have knowledge of good and evil through experience, salvation and deliverance through purification of the LOF.

We know that God is the potter and we are His clay. So some of us are made into an Adolph Hitler and others into Mother Therese of Calcutta. It is God who decides where to put the limit of evil on us while at the same time reminding us that if we break one law we are guilty of all the law and that includes the most heinous crimes  even if we do not perform them. Why? Because we are clay and God decides who will be Hitler and who will be Therese. This too is part of the process of God to humble us to  comprehend His ways Power and Wisdom. Reverential fear of God is knowing that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, Sovereign and responsible fully for His design that will have a remarkable outcome.  Some of us are made for wrath and others for Gods glory. In the end ALL will contain Gods glory as God will be all in all. That is remarkable and only God can do this work of salvation that is extended even to Satan! God is God. All creatures are HIS.

If I can not see the end result, or that the Will of God is to have sons and daughters in His glorious, Holy and all knowing image, then I will not see that with God, the end does justify the means. Then I will get trapped in the sink hole of dark despair and perhaps get caught in the heresy of  Hell. Eternal damnation takes away the opportunity of knowing God and His ways because it interferes with the end result of Gods plans. It interferes with  the fact that God is God and His will is that we all be saved and His will WILL be done.

The teachings and deceptions that Mystery Babylon teaches have to be unlearnt and discarded. Only few are elected to know the truth in any one generation. This is in fulfilment of the prophesy that when Christ comes there will be very little faith remaining on the earth and that too is part of the plan that will open the flood gates of mercy, judgment and knowledge will fill the earth and it will not be a small trickle of a flood…I believe it will be a cataclysmic change of  earths government to Gods authority and it will be unlike anything human kind has ever experienced….the coming of Christ…the birth from darkness to light!....the unveiling of the sons and daughters of God and the WTJ new millennium reign. Why would that be so spectacular if there is not a contrast? There will be. Jesus indicated that the world will be as in the days of Noah which means in rank evil sinful indulgence when He returns not as a one man band minority but as the King of Glory.  God ordained it and He is responsible!

I am not disappointed in Ray and neither do I see that Ray has changed his stance. I believe he has gone to the next level of comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God in the wisdom of actually a deeper revelation that we have yet to fully comprehend. We have to catch up! :D


Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Chris R on March 14, 2007, 07:42:03 AM
Hi,

Interesting thread, And undoubtedly many reading this thread will be just as confused when it has ended, as it when in began.

 Perhaps if we were to create all of the world, and all those living in it, have all knowledge, and have a master plan, then perhaps we could run this creation differently?

And all would be cheery and filled with loving people, and there would be no wars, and no raping of little children, and no disease, no heartache, no dissapointment, no aging parents, no death, nothing to distinguish us from a computer program, how nice that would be right?....WRONG!

You all know how long this life is...it is short..VERY short. It is a vapor, it is like a flicker of a flame against the night air and is extinguished instantly.

In order to have the above life, that we all seem to want...GUESS WHAT! we have to experience war, hate, raping of little children, age, disease, dissapointmet, discouragement, darkness, sickness, and death

I'm sorry this tastes bitter and we dont like it, it is what it is, but there is hope for all mankind, You have all answered this question, but some just dont like the answer. God has a plan, He created man weak, riddled with sinful emotions, it is his plan that mankind sin for a season, But God did not sin by doing this, This inigma is of mans feeble brain, Our ways are not Gods ways, We dont even THINK like God, how dare we say to the Creator, WHY have you made me thus?

We are accountable, not responsible for our deeds.

Chris R



Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: andrevan on March 14, 2007, 07:48:18 AM
Thanks Arcturus, Brett and Stego. In different ways you've helped me. Arcturus, I agree with what you've said, you have a way of making things clear, and to the point. :)
I'm finding it hard to understand that I "volunteer" to sin. Volunteering to me is a choice, choice does not mean free will, I understand this. But if God has brought about the circumstances that cause me to sin, then really I'm not volunteering, as I could not have "not volunteered" to sin in the first place. :-\

So from what you said, I'm fine with how God does this, it is through this experience of good and evil that we learn righteousness. We need to experience & hate this sin in us & others, why else would we repent? So the man who rapes someone, or murders someone, was caused to do so by God, he did not volunteer, his choice was caused, he could not really have chosen otherwise. This is where I keep ending up.

Some of us are made into murderers and child molesters, or Hitlers, etc. It is a remarkable thing, when you realise this, and it has given me greater compassion for people, especially for the lost, the uncalled, and concern for the called trapped in Christendom. How much greater therefore will be the love and compassion from our Loving Father and His Son! Because of this causation, it only follows that God will have mercy on all & save all humanity. This is the only way I can understand this and I thank God that His ways are perfect and righteous and just... His mercy prevails!

Peace of God to you all. :)
Andrevan.

Thanks Chris as well. (Just read your post).
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: hillsbororiver on March 14, 2007, 08:43:06 AM
Very well stated Chris.

Thank you,

Joe
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Sorin on March 14, 2007, 11:00:14 AM
Let's look at this from a another perspective, shall we?  Suppose that little { Oh I don't know.... say 12 yr old } girl got pregnant after being raped by this man. Now, we have a new life in her belly. So according to Ray Smith's stance of God not preordaining sins, such as the rape, then that child was created by chance. God had nothing to do with it.... other then creating us with the ability to procreate, but we choose when and if we'll procreate. Therefore we were all created by chance, and not preordained by God to come into this world at any particular time, nor did God preordain our gender, and therefore, didn't preordain our lives.

See, so that's why, if you believe that God is in control, and we don't have free will, and God determines when and if we'll be born, and what our genders will be, and what we'll look like etc.... then, with the example I just gave, wouldn't it be fair to say that God preordained that rape? Doesn't God create evil? Yes, He does. So wouldn't that rape qualify as an act of evil? Yes. So then, how come God can create evil, but He can't preordain a rape {which is also evil}?


Again, I'm just trying to figure it all out.... so take it easy, eh?

Peace,
Sorin

Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: josh on March 14, 2007, 12:09:35 PM
Sorin,

I've been following this thread closely... hope you don't mind if I add a few thoughts...

First let me say that, to me, the original email posed a question that seemed more like a trap or a passive aggressive attack then a sincere inquiry… I have never once read in scripture, nor at BT that God “pre-ordains certain men to rape little girls.”

Look again at Ray’s answer, the closing sentences of the second paragraph… “We live and operate under law. We automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-ordained."

This is certainly not a “free will” teaching, free will cannot be “automatic.”

I think we can all agree that we do have a “will”… but is that will “free”  of outside stimuli that cause us automatically or out of compulsion to act or behave in a certain or specific way.  God in His foreknowledge knows in advance what we will do, not because in that moment He is doing it for us, but because He created us with a heart that constantly chooses evil, instead of good/righteousness, for we are not yet filled with the knowledge of God.

Jeremiah 17:9
9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?

I do not believe that the scriptures teach that God is a micro manager… or a puppet master… working in us to do specific evil actions, instead we willfully choose evil because God has constructed us (not by our free choice, but in His sovereignty and for His perfect plan) without an initial knowledge of God and what He desires for us and out of us… God is the initial action, everything there after is a CAUSED ACTION in response to Him and His movement.

Third I believe there is a significant difference in God being in control (being sovereign) and God controlling everything. The first implies that nothing happens outside of God's preordained plan… the latter implies that humanity has no will/desire/personality of their own, and God is simply controlling their every action… kind of like God playing a video game.

For humanity, sinning is like breathing… no one has to tell us to do it, we’ve been programmed to do it by design.  God is in control because He called all things in to being, set them in motion and has already DECLARED THE END FROM THE BEGINNING!

I agree with Ray when He states: “Man has the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins.”

It doesn’t! God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) then He created man ineffective to righteousness. (Romans 8:20)

Isaiah 45:7
7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.

Romans 8:20
20: for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;

Now any action that does not proceed out of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), but faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-10)…  If God does not give you faith, you enter into SIN by default/design.

Romans 14:23
23: But he who has doubts is condemned, if he eats, because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Furthermore, God has already prepared every good work each of us will ever walk in… if He did not prepare it… we again will enter into SIN by default/design.

God does not cause us to sin, he created Satan for that… “HE CREATED THE WAISTER TO DESTROY” Isaiah 54:16.

Craig makes an excellent point: “…take me back in time 60-70 years and put me in charge of the Nazi’s.  Would I respond the same as Hitler?  No I wouldn't, but put me in his shoes, his life growing up and give me the same choices that he made to get to where he ended up and I/we would do the same as him.”

We must not isolate God’s action to one sinful action, such as rape or even one single sinful thought… God constructs/preordains our lives (all of it not single actions) in such a way that we will become His desired end result… HIS IMAGE!

Ray eludes to this in the last paragraph of his second response:

“Let me help you with the answer:  Why is it wrong for one man to kill another man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons:  [1] Intent of heart. God kills out of righteousness.  [2]  God kills for the welfare of the one He kills. [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.”

I understand your thought pattern here (I’ve struggled with this also)… but I believe you are seeing it from the temporal perspective here. Once again, I do not believe you can single out God’s actions without looking at the entirety of a man’s life, God’s intent for that life and how God brings about that action.

God has allowed a multiplicity of evil behaviors to reign over His creation, He has subjected us to vanity/futility NOT WILLINGLY (Rom. 8:20), so that we see and learn the difference between evil and righteousness.  Perhaps we will never understand this concept fully until we pass from the physical to the spiritual… there will most likely always be some hypothetical question that will seemingly throw a wrench in our understanding… in it’s proper God “pre-ordained” time it will all be revealed =)

God’s Peace.
Josh


Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Craig on March 14, 2007, 12:30:36 PM
God Bless Josh,

That may have been one of the best thought out answers on free will that I have read.

Kinda condensed down what Ray teaches.

Blessings
Craig
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Sorin on March 14, 2007, 12:56:56 PM
Josh, I understand what you're saying. And I wasn't implying that God forces anybody to sin, We all know that the man doing the raping is enjoying every second of it. But
that's why I brought up that pregnancy issue, because now that we have a new life, how can it have not been preordained, since God is supposedly the Creator of life, of everyone's life...including that new ******* child. No?

Or is that child insignificant? I mean after all she was raped, and therefore abortion is in order? So it doesn't count? So your response, while good, doesn't quite answer my question. So even if she gets and abortion, there was still a life there. Or atleast, a potential life.




Also, I don't understand what Ray means by "God kills for the welfare of the one He kills". How can killing anybody be for his/her own welfare? I mean other then in a case where the person is being tortured with unspeakable pain and suffering and God kills him/her to end his/her suffering. But even then, it's not really for his/her welfare, it's just
, I suppose you might say an act of mercy.


I understand that God brings back to life, and He said He will give us immortallity, and we shall never die again and all of that.... but I'm seriously not looking forward to it.
It just seems so different, no more flesh bodies, we'll have spiritual bodies, we'll no longer be given into marriage.... it's not what I want. I'd rather just be blessed here
in this life, with a long life and wealth and health like the Jews in the OT who obeyed God. But of course I can't have that, so quite frankly I see no reason to worship God.

Sorry...........
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Kat on March 14, 2007, 01:40:55 PM

Hi Sorin,

I see that you are really struggling with this.
I was going to give an excerpt from the 2nd Repentance audio, but I could not decide what.
So let me say, I am almost through with transcripding this from the audio, and I can post it maybe later today.  It will answer your questions very well.  As Ray goes into great detail to explain this.
So just wanted to let you know it's coming  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: YellowStone on March 14, 2007, 02:21:55 PM
Sorin, you have started a wonderful discussion.

I would like to offer two insights, one of Free Will and the other on Preordination that might help you understand a little better :)

- Free Will -

This is probably the greatest fallacy of all time, and I think after you read my explanation you will understand why. :)

Ray has said: " states: “Man has the ability to think, plan, create, imagine" etc. But the key to understanding Free-Will is the word Create. Yes, we can create; we can imagine a concept, think and plan it through and then create it with our hands. Yet we cannot WILL it to happen, we are NOT FREE to do so. :) God has such power to create (WILL) life, clouds, the Earth, Solar System, Galaxyies, and Universe yet we have not the WILL to boil water for coffee. Sorin, when next preented with someone saying man has free will, please correct them and say that man has FREE CHOICE. Yet, this is limited by God's Will, not ours. Should we choose to jump to the moon, we cannot, and neither can we will it. Likewise, if we choose to boill water, we first must have the necessary elements needed for us to do so, We can't will them either. :)

- PreOrdained -

There is a huge difference between knowing and preordaining. Let's say that a mother put's a plate of choclate cookies in front of a toddler and says "don't touch" Yeah right! :)

How many times and how many years would it take for that child to know and understand that just because those cookies are in reach, does not mean that they are entitiled to take any? The Parent will certainly hope that this will one day happen, could be in their teens. Here's the catch though, so the teen doesn't take a cookie for a day, week, month, year or decade, but then takes one. I think a parent would be EXTREMELY suprised if their child was presented with a plate of cookies for ten years and never took one. :)

There is another angle that we need to look at, let's say that this was a 10 year case study on 100 children starting at the age of one. Certainly there would be those children that would learn not to eat the cookies quicker than others. Could be that a few would tatse one, decide they don't like them and never take another. At the other end of the scale there are probably those that don't really care in the rules and will have or leave the cookies according to their reasoning and not the parents.

I think this would be an execellent case study and I truly would love to see the results. :)

Now substitute the cookies for the raping of a young girl, :( Sadly, it will happen. Not because there is some big time line and suddenly a man is told: "Okay buddy, it's time....." :)  No, rather it's due to our sinful nature, our sometimes willingness to harm and maim. (not all share this as not all like choclate)

God knows it is going to happen.

I hope this little analogy helps :)

Your brother in Christ.
Darren
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: SteveW on March 14, 2007, 04:02:10 PM
Sorin,

It takes a temperature of 800-1700 degrees C to turn sand into glass.  Often I just want to stay "sand" too (I promise I will try to be good sand).  May God increase our faith!  He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.  The desination is worth the journey.
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Craig on March 14, 2007, 04:04:59 PM
Quote
He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.

Yes, Steve.  If God will just give as that much we are truely blessed. :)

Craig
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: YellowStone on March 14, 2007, 04:11:43 PM
Quote
He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.

Yes, Steve.  If God will just give as that much we are truely blessed. :)

Craig

Craig, I will gladly second that! :)

Darren
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 14, 2007, 04:15:40 PM
Hello Andrevan

You wrote : I'm finding it hard to understand that I "volunteer" to sin. Volunteering to me is a choice, choice does not mean free will, I understand this. But if God has brought about the circumstances that cause me to sin, then really I'm not volunteering, as I could not have "not volunteered" to sin in the first place.  

So from what you said, I'm fine with how God does this, it is through this experience of good and evil that we learn righteousness. We need to experience & hate this sin in us & others, why else would we repent? So the man who rapes someone, or murders someone, was caused to do so by God, he did not volunteer, his choice was caused, he could not really have chosen otherwise. This is where I keep ending up.

It is okay to keep ending up with knowing that we do not have free choice or free will. THAT is the revelation!  ;D :D THAT IS WHERE YOU SHOULD END UP! 8)

Perhaps this more simplified version can help.

Evil circumstances + a wretched heart condition = sin (Humanity starts at this point in carnality)

GOD changes this formula by Grace through Faith.

Rom 5 : 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. 21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto aion life by Jesus Christ.

God creates circumstances in which we fall, we leave our first love and we sin. This is part of the process of going on to perfection through which God corrects us and conforms us to the image of His Son.

Heb 12 : 8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all of God’s children share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons.  

The Scriptures tell us that it through much tribulation that we enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Acts 14 : 22

2 COR 12 : 9 My Grace, My favor and loving-kindness and mercy is enough for you, sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully: for My strenght and power are made perfect, fulfilled and completed and show themselves most effective in your weakness.  

Peace and His Grace be to you

Arcturus :)




Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: josh on March 14, 2007, 05:19:19 PM
Sorin,

Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and (man became a living being.

Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says— He who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

I believe the scriptures are clear that life only comes by “the breath of life” which is from God… the unplanned child from the tragic rape is not only part of the perfect plan of God, but it can serve as a beautiful reminder of how out of the most awful and vile sin, God can bring forth life.

I will not pretend for even a moment that I know what it feels like for a woman to be raped and then to have to deal with the aftermath of emotions and pain, both mental and physical she will have to endure… I can imagine how difficult it would be to have a child who is a constant reminder of that awful experience… but I can relate to this situation in that a family member of mine was sexually molested by a youth pastor I once trusted and spent time with.

It was during that time, when tragedy struck my family that I began to question how God could allow something so awful to happen to such a young girl, a sister that I loved and didn’t feel like deserved what she had been forced to deal with at such a young age. It reeked havoc on my family… still to this day I see the effects of that occurrence on my sister.

In reading the scriptures I know this for sure… the steps of a righteous man are ordered by God, but what about the unrighteous man? What about his steps? Who orders those?

That man’s god, his own lusts, orders his steps… God simply gives “them over to the lusts of there heart to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them” (Romans 1:24-26, quoted below)… God knows what the heart is capable of… He created it that way…

Romans 1:24-26
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,  


I think the key to this discussion is to understand that God chooses some vessels for honor, others for dishonor…

The vessels of dishonors steps are ordered by their pride and their lust… God in His foreknowledge knows what sins they will commit, because He places them in the situation and specific circumstances… but He doesn’t need to force or preordain a specific sin, because He has already caused the man to be blinded to the truth and in so doing knows in advance what they will choose… because He knows our heart and our thoughts before we even feel/think them.

I believe when Ray stated that God “kills for the welfare of the one He kills”… he was referring to all who die. Regardless of how my life ends… whether I am shot at the age of 23, die of cancer at 45 or pass away from natural causes at 67 or 89 or even if I’m Methuselah and die at the young age 900+ yrs… God still chose to take my life or “kill me”… If I believe the scriptures, I must believe that when it is my time, it is the absolute best time for my life here on earth to end, because God works all things according the counsel of His own will and His will is perfect.

Last night, I went to visit a friend of mine whose family is renting a beach house out in Gulf Breeze… we were sitting inside and watching the news when an interesting story came on about the demolition of a large hotel/casino in Las Vegas. I watched as they counted down… 10…9…8 …    …1, then a large fireworks display went off and finally the explosions went off in every floor… it was amazing really… the whole building imploding and collapsing onto itself…

Lately, I’ve felt a lot like that building… the last year or so of my life, my whole “theology” has been turned upside down and deconstructed… in a sense, my whole life was built on my understanding of God and then it all imploded… and in a sense so did I… I’m sure you can relate.

Even before I came to BT, I have struggled with many, if not all of the teachings of the mainstream church… and even now, as I am beginning to understand a small portion of the truth/mysteries of God, I fight against it because it all seems so against my own human nature and ideals of what is right.

There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go… when I can’t imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have… but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how “unfinished” I really am… maybe “different” won’t be so bad Sorin… I can’t imagine it either and most of the time it’s scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life… but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind… but trust is hard to learn.

Not sure if this helps, but know that most of us feel the same as you.

Your Brother,
Josh
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 14, 2007, 05:25:56 PM
Josh

You are an inspiration!
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: YellowStone on March 14, 2007, 08:23:12 PM
Josh Wrote:

There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go… when I can’t imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have… but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how “unfinished” I really am… maybe “different” won’t be so bad Sorin… I can’t imagine it either and most of the time it’s scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life… but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind… but trust is hard to learn.



I know what you mean about not being able to imagine what it is going to be like. However, just think how it must be like for someone who never experienced one or more of their senses.

How could one explain an inspirational sunset, the view from the edge of the Grand Canyon, a star filled night sky, a rainbow, a prairie filled with wild flowers to someone who knows not sight. How also could one explain the laughter of child, sound of wind through the trees, of birds in the springtime, of the monumental clashes of thunder or a coyote howling in the night to someone who is deaf. Likewise how can one explain taste, or smell to someone who has not experienced them first hand.

Yet, we treat these as givens, most likely no one gives them a second thought, yet all that I mentioned and many more that I did not gives us life as we know it here on this Earth. Our Father has given this to us today, knowing that our world will be soiled by sin, yet with these wonderful gifts, we can still find an innumerable ways in which to marvel at his wisdom, forethought and unwavering love for us.

Yet I do not think that man in all his wisdom could comprehend what God has planned for us, even if we knew. :)

One last thing; I feel that trust has less to do with learning that it has about letting go. :)  It was a big step understanding that I was not the center of my universe, that it was NOT only I who knew me, that it was NOT only I who could know the pain of my past. God was there with me all along.

Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psa 23:2  He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Psa 23:3  He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psa 23:4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Psa 23:5  Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Psa 23:6  Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


If this is not sound instruction regarding trust towards our God in this life, then someone please tell me. :)

Thanks Josh, your post is/was wonderful. It is heartfelt and meaningful, and I too took much from it.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Jennie on March 14, 2007, 09:14:02 PM
Hello to you all, I have read this thread and re-read this thread in trying to understand. I hit the stumbling block with the idea that child abusers, rapists of children are made that way. As one who has been there( victim of), statistically I should be more likely to be an alcoholic, drug user , etc., because of my background. I made a concious choice many years ago that I would not be a statistic and act out in the ways that people often do when this has happened to them. Am I changed because of the event? Yes I am. I will always have the physical problems that I deal with daily because the damage was so great. I am my own worst critic. Somedays I think I 'm responsible for the war in Iraq!!! That is another side effect of what happened . Instead of being a statistic I try to take the experience , although it was not right that it happen to a child, to help others who have lived through this and maybe give them some hope and support. I still don't understand all this thread contains and probably never will but I guess that's okay. Jennie
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: gmik on March 14, 2007, 10:00:36 PM
Josh, that was pretty insightful.

Dang, I still get convoluted about it, tho.

God made vessels for honor & dishonor.  Jacob have I loved, Esau have I "less loved".  God created evil.  Alll is by plan & design.  I believed that when I scratch my nose God had me do it from the foundation of the world.  All my stupid and not so stupid mistakes thru out my life were for me to bring me to where I am and still going :-\

So the rapist, or hitler, or the cheater on taxes were all made to be that way.  Our sins reveal the idols of our hearts.  So are we now saying that God just KNEW what we were gonna do and doesn't stop it?  Is there any room at all for some small "free will" things going on??

I just got (another)e mail from this close to me person (I mentioned on another thread a minite ago about tithing) saying "you can't get mad at me cuz you don't believe in free will and so I just HAD to tell you this!"  I had tried talking to this person before but couldn't do it very well (this was about a year ago when I was much greener at this), and they bring it up just now.."you couldn't explain it to me then and you can't now becz it doesn't make any sense!"  I sent them to BT to let them read it for themselves.  They are madder than a skunk about BT and they don't even want to associate w/ me anymore if I keep following "this false prophet".

I am a little bummed right now. :'(
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: hillsbororiver on March 14, 2007, 10:19:36 PM
Dear Sister Gena,

I'd say you are in some really good company!  ;)

Joh 15:18  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
 
Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
 
Joh 15:20  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kep my saying, they will keep yours also.

His Peace to you,

Joe
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: sansmile on March 14, 2007, 11:26:29 PM
What a thought provoking thread!  it's late here in the UK and i should be sleeping.... but i seem to be seeing..maybe i am wrong...but i am seeing a concentration on LEVEL of sin. What shocks some may not others. To people,that call themselves christians..they might say, that we (non mainstream) are worse than rapists are murderers...because we see the truth and say it...it is bitter to their stomachs. I have had many say to me that i am an heretic ... i will burn more..because they say  to me that i know Christ but wont accept His word. You all know what  mean......in that they say we are blaspheming. What i have seen in His word with regard to sin is....there are no levels. Yes, i believe some will receive more stripes than others, will spend a shorter or longer time in the lake of fire, but we all have siinned. We need to be careful lest we boast. 
Josh said...."when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go"   i really at times dont feel that, i feel it would be SO EASY to let go, because this is a means to an end.Paul explained it perfectly in Romans.   I think we really need to understand what preordained means versus pre knowledge. many of us are in differant walks and He reveals to us all at differant times, He has in His wisdom ,not mine, given me understanding of the " free will " myth. He knows what we will choose in the choices He has given us, cause He knows NOT TIME. We measure what is happening to us individually,by time, ....looking back is how we can see..looking back is when we see the beast. Is our beast lesser than the rapist...the murderer. If we want to judge levels ofsin we need to really look at how much truth we have in us. I do not believe that the child rapist does not feel some remorse or guilt, i believe he/she sees the beast IN themselves but doesnt recognise that the beast is the carnal in them because they do Not know the spirit of truth. Paul said he was judged perfect in the law, because he knew NOT what sin was.   Sometimes in here we need to remember.......judge ourselves and we will not be judged. Our focus should be on Him...by thinking we have "free will "annuls Him and totally contradicts the truth we have been shown. He is sovereign   He is creat ING us in His image, WE have been pre ordained as children of God  .......only because He has seen........not thru time  (as we know it)   but through Him being all knowing   a concept we as mankind,  can never truly understand     because we have not YET the mind of God. We are not YET perfected.
    May God give us understanding through His Living word

Sandie
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: hillsbororiver on March 14, 2007, 11:50:22 PM


"when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go"   i really at times dont feel that, i feel it would be SO EASY to let go, because this is a means to an end.



Hi Sandie,

I am certainly with you here, perhaps it is because of the number of years I have been in this flesh (53 later this month) and the accelerated life experiences both good and bad that have transpired I must admit a weariness of this present world, I so look forward to the next age.

The unknown things He has in store for us I know in my spirit will be so vastly superior to what we see, feel and think presently that there is no comparison, I am anxiously anticipating His Kingdom.

Other than family and friends there isn't much in this world I feel tethered to any more, since I know they will all be with me eventually I haven't much fear of a short, blink of an eye separation.

I hope I do not sound meloncholy because I am not, it is just that I am over the earthly things I once held dear, even though certain temptations are still  mighty thorns in my flesh. I guess I am tired of that too.  ;)

His Peace to you,

Joe  
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: josh on March 15, 2007, 11:36:19 AM
Gena,

A couple of thoughts on your last post…

You state:

“God made vessels for honor & dishonor.  Jacob have I loved, Esau have I "less loved".  God created evil.”

I agree with all of these statements except about Esau being “less loved”… I believe Ray shares some thoughts on this on the second part of the Feb. Bible Study on “Love”… it was also discussed shortly after on a thread here at the forum…

Here is the thread: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3469.0.html

“All is by plan & design.  I believed that when I scratch my nose God had me do it from the foundation of the world.  All my stupid and not so stupid mistakes thru out my life were for me to bring me to where I am and still going

So the rapist, or hitler, or the cheater on taxes were all made to be that way.  Our sins reveal the idols of our hearts.  So are we now saying that God just KNEW what we were gonna do and doesn't stop it?  Is there any room at all for some small "free will" things going on??”

I’m by no means an expert on this subject… here is an excerpt from Ray’s LOF series, Free Will Part C:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

GOD HAS PERFECTLY CHOREOGRAPHED HIS CREATION

All that has been, and is, and will be, has been planned and choreographed down to the movement of the last atom, by the Designer and Operator of the Universe, without Whom everything would fall apart in oblivion:
 
“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist [‘has its cohesion,’ ]” (Col. 1:16-17).

Since “by Jesus all things consist and have their cohesion,” why is it that only man and his fabled “free-moral-agency-will” is the only truly “free radical” in the universe? Nonsense! Even “free radicals” operate under law—God operates all that exists, by law. Jesus did not create the universe and all that in it is, and then goes off on a trip to let the universe fend for itself. God presently is “working—operating” all that exists, and that includes the “will” of all mankind. Here’s some more Scriptural proof:

“…God which works [‘operates’] all in all ” (I Cor. 12:6). God works all that there is in all that there are. Pretty neat, huh?  When we have a God this great, we can expect nothing but perfect assured success. The Christian teaching that God only can “desire” great things, but He cannot actually “accomplish” great things is absurd.

Here is Christian theology at its best: God invents man. God desires for man to work a certain way. Man fails to work in the way that God desires. Out of uncontrollable frustration, God tortures his mal-functioning invention for all eternity. And no one sees a problem with this anti-scriptural heresy.

Who among us has not seen in real life or in the movies:  A man invents a machine. He desires for his invention to work a certain way. The invention fails to work in the desired way. The inventor smashes the mal-functioning machine into a thousand pieces? We laugh at such stupid and juvenile behavior, yet we worship a god who supposedly acts a thousand times more stupid and evil than our carnal-minded inventor. Go figure.

What kind of insanity blames a “created machine” for any mal-functions? God created the human race; God is responsible for any and all activities of the human race. No one asked to be born! And yet… and YET, there are those evil-minded theologians and Christians who believe that God will not only torture most of His creatures, but that He actually knew in advance of their creation that He would torture most of them in literal fire for all eternity!

Not only would such an “Inventor” be stupid, but he would be evil beyond words to describe. Yet even all of this stupidity and evil of the human heart, “…is of God.” Most have not yet even conceived of the Judgment that will come on them for the heresy of their own hearts. This judgment of our hearts is also part of God’s grand plan. God has made man in this weakened spiritual state for a grand and glorious destiny. Man is not yet created in God’s full spiritual Image, but that is the process, purpose, and destiny of the human race—to finally be the very Image of God Himself.

The Scriptures plainly show and state in many places, that the natural mind of man cannot love and obey God. Yet theologians tell us that unless man does, of his own free will, love and obey God, that God will torture them in fire for all eternity. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!

“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).

“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).

“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).

“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE”  (Rom. 4:17).

“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…”  (Isa. 46:10).

“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).

All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.”  And this is why:

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).

No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).

I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?

If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”

“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!

“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].

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Hope this helps.
Josh
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: josh on March 15, 2007, 11:40:51 AM
Sandi,

I think we are in more agreement then you realize...

"There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go… when I can’t imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have… but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how “unfinished” I really am… maybe “different” won’t be so bad Sorin… I can’t imagine it either and most of the time it’s scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life… but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind… but trust is hard to learn."

God's Peace
Josh
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: gmik on March 15, 2007, 02:21:05 PM
Thanks Joe and Josh!!
Title: Re: Preordained
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 15, 2007, 02:38:27 PM
It took me years to come to grips with free will, but I did not come to my understanding with my own desire to know.

Some honestly want to understand and some are simply looking for contradictions so they have a way out (subconsciously?).

Just because you do not understand does not mean it is not so. Is it vanity that prevents someone from accepting that they do not yet know and understand?

We've beat this topic up and it is time to lock it.

Dennis