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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: newgene87 on February 23, 2013, 03:20:21 AM
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I was having a really good conversation with a friend of mine and she asked a interesting question which i'm wondering too.
"When Jesus was hanging out on the cross and Jesus shouted out. My God My God why hast thou forsaken me? Did God forsake his son in his last moments?"
Good question for me as well. I know that text is from Matthew 27:46 and a quote from Psalm 22. Why did Jesus say those words at that moment? why is that "text" so unique in that it's written that he said it in it's original language? (as if His other words were "spoken" in ENGLISH ;D teehee). With my Observation - Jesus would be saying this IMPLYING that "God DID forsake Him" ....or why say it??? :o. Just a general question. I couldn't find Ray's insight on this verse, i'm definitely seeking his insight and any others. Thanks
Eugene
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From Ray’s emails:
I do not believe that God "turned His back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
Jesus was telling them who the Messiah was. Hey chaps this is your Messiah you just knocked up on this piece of wood.
Lord not my will but Thy will be done.
The perfect sinless sacrifice for the world. How could you beat this sort of love.
Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
I think God must love us or something to do this. How much does He love us? Perhaps more than what we presently know. Jesus already knew the answer to His own question.
Never forsaken in any moment. All God's will.
I ask myself the same thing sometimes and I know I'm not forsaken by God. If I know that I'm pretty sure Jesus did as well.
Rhys
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This seems like he was forsaken but the next verse tells us he bowed his head [humbled himself in the circumstance] and gave up his spirit 'Into Your hands I commit my spirit" did not hold onto/focus on the trauma taking place,
This is to happen with all we go thru or places he God takes us to, Humble yourself,hand it over to whom it belongs and rest [breath your last] Take up your cross Daily ....
good news is that we are then risen out of that situation in due time
don't we also scream when things are not working out according to our spec - you dont love me ,you have let me down etc
my 2 cents
Ian
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that YOU SHOULD FOLLOW HIS STEPS.
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I was taught that as in the account of him taking the scroll of the prophet Isaiah 53 and after reading it in the synagogue, proclaimed this day is this scripture fulfilled, so also he spoke those words so as to fulfill the prophesy in psalm 22. So that all prophesy would be fulfilled. Bob
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Hi Eugene,
Think of the situation, Jesus who was a human as any of us are, in that He felt all the pain of what He was going through. He was being crucified, He was in excruciating pain, He was struggling for every breath He took. So what does this perfect man do in His distress and suffering? He cries out to the only being that can help Him...
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
He was not saying forsaken as He thought His Father had left Him. He knew the Father would have never turned His back on "His beloved Son," not for a second. This was His death and He knew it very well, and He wanted it to be over... of course He wanted this part to be done, finished. That is what His plea to His Father was about and His Father's answer to this came very quickly thereafter.
Mat 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. as Bob said He did fulfill that prophesy as well, so He spent His last moment taking care of the business He was sent to do.
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Exactly. Why say it if it weren't true?
Isaiah 54:8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.
It was only for a little while. I don't know if this verse is any help, but if God the Father was angry, He wasn't angry with Jesus because Jesus didn't do anything deserving of God's wrath. But I imagine if it is true, God was angered by what He had to witness was happening to His Son. I don't think He wanted to forsake Him but He had to in order for death to come. But it was only for a little while. And of course, we all know that He redeemed Jesus from the grave.
My 2 cents.
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Exactly. Why say it if it weren't true?
Isaiah 54:8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.
It was only for a little while. I don't know if this verse is any help, but if God the Father was angry, He wasn't angry with Jesus because Jesus didn't do anything deserving of God's wrath. But I imagine if it is true, God was angered by what He had to witness was happening to His Son. I don't think He wanted to forsake Him but He had to in order for death to come. But it was only for a little while. And of course, we all know that He redeemed Jesus from the grave.
My 2 cents.
wowww what a verse. even the verse before speaks to me, "For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee" .....thank you " Shorty". I will pray on that. Scripture was fulfilled :D
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Hi folks,
Thanks for the helpful words,
I think it also speaks to the idea that Lord Jesus had to REALLY die!
True it is about the undeserved pain and suffering, but it is also about the FAITH of Jesus.
Not to seem to go to sleep or pretend death in unconsciousness, because he was actually god and could not die, but to really put his trust in the Father, ALL THE WAY!
That of course is the example we are to follow. To put ALL our trust in the hope/fact that we shall be resurrected to LIFE once again, no matter our carnal, human doubts and fears.
Mark 9:23-25
Truly we are most blessed among all people.
Indiana Bob
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Here's an email where Ray made a comment on this statement from Jesus on the cross.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2775.0 -------
No, David, neither do I believe that God "turned HIs back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
God be with you,
Ray
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Rhys,
It appears you misquoted Ray: From Ray’s emails:
I do believe that God "turned His back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
Jesus was telling them who the Messiah was. Hey chaps this is your Messiah you just knocked up on this piece of wood.
Lord not my will but Thy will be done.
The perfect sinless sacrifice for the world. How could you beat this sort of love.
Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
I think God must love us or something to do this. How much does He love us? Perhaps more than what we presently know. Jesus already knew the answer to His own question.
Never forsaken in any moment. All God's will.
I ask myself the same thing sometimes and I know I'm not forsaken by God. If I know that I'm pretty sure Jesus did as well.
Rhys
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Well, gee, I just don't know what to think now. I mean, if Jesus and the Father are One, and every thought Jesus had and every word he said came from the Father, why did He say that?
Maybe that's another one of those spurious passages. I don't really give a care at this point if all it's going to do is tear us down the middle.
I'm out. :)
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I took out the guy's name and forgot to put not in, my mistake, have changed now, sorry
I had - I do believe that God "turned His back on His only Son." before adding the word "not"
I'm so sorry I made a mistake in the original post as was tired at that time. I mean no disrespect to shorty so I am truly sorry for making you look bad, it was never my intent to do so.
I am also so sorry that I misquoted what Ray said, making it sound like he said something else.
I never saw my mistake before you mentioned it. Sorry and sorry again.
Rhys
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This is all interesting, but in light of Ray's "Enigma of God", how does Jesus forsake himself, except to allow himself to physically die, otherwise the life within him, his spirit could not allow himself to to die.
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Watchman,
The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?". Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father. Jesus is not His own Father. Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.
(Did you love that Enigma paper? I did.)
Gina
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Exactly. Why say it if it weren't true?
Isaiah 54:8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.
It was only for a little while. I don't know if this verse is any help, but if God the Father was angry, He wasn't angry with Jesus because Jesus didn't do anything deserving of God's wrath. But I imagine if it is true, God was angered by what He had to witness was happening to His Son. I don't think He wanted to forsake Him but He had to in order for death to come. But it was only for a little while. And of course, we all know that He redeemed Jesus from the grave.
My 2 cents.
That verse is referencing Israel, not Christ. Jesus was never forsaken.
John 8:29 The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him
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Okay Marques.
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It's frightening to think that God might have actually forsaken His own Son, Newgene -- well, I don't know about how you feel about that, but that's me.
I just don't know what to think anymore. I mean, if God caused Jesus to say those words then maybe the obvious answer is He did forsake Him, but I can't argue with what Ray said either because I prefer to think that God the Father didn't forsake Him.
I fear this is another one of those idols of my heart, where I get so much like, "Oooo I have to be right!" haha! And I proceed to walk around for a few weeks - mood ruined. As embarrassing as that is to admit!
p.s. to Rhys. I forgive you!
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Exactly. Why say it if it weren't true?
Isaiah 54:8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.
It was only for a little while. I don't know if this verse is any help, but if God the Father was angry, He wasn't angry with Jesus because Jesus didn't do anything deserving of God's wrath. But I imagine if it is true, God was angered by what He had to witness was happening to His Son. I don't think He wanted to forsake Him but He had to in order for death to come. But it was only for a little while. And of course, we all know that He redeemed Jesus from the grave.
My 2 cents.
That verse is referencing Israel, not Christ. Jesus was never forsaken.
John 8:29 The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him
"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matt 2:15) ="When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son" (Hosea 11:1) ---Now Matthew has some explaining to do....or he doesnt cause he understand a principle....
Just as i said once before, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom 14:5)
Thanks for that Scripture Shorty. We'd be amazed that alot of the Scriptures that even the apostles used to "claim" fulfilled Christ, if we go back and the read the text, everytime it's either referring to Israel or the Leader of the Time (i.e. David, Moses, Joshua..). I believe 'our' Hermeneutics is the problem in every case, cause that's the only way to even see "universal" salvation through Judgment even from the Old Testament viewpoint.
"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures" (Luke 24:44)
"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory" (Luke 24:25-26)
Again, thanks Shorty. That Isaiah 54 is just another scripture i never saw before, and using Paul and the Apostle's hermeneutics: there are alot of Scripture that Christ can "open our understanding" on and see it's applies to Christ.
thanks for everyone's viewpoint. thanks alot, i really appreciate it
Eugene
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Well I will offer this thought, Jesus was in the last moments of His life, He may have been feeling the very life draining out of Himself. Now all people go through death, but He was God, the very creator of the universe and He was full of LIFE that was leaving Him, certainly there was some anxiety in this very difficult period. I know He knew/understood that His Father did not, could not forsake Him, but maybe it was His actual dying and the LIFE leaving Him that was alarming. It seems He died very soon after He said that.
Mat 27:50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Well I will offer this thought, Jesus was in the last moments of His life, He may have been feeling the very life draining out of Himself. Now all people go through death, but He was God, the very creator of the universe and He was full of LIFE that was leaving Him, certainly there was some anxiety in this very difficult period. I know He knew/understood that His Father did not, could not forsake Him, but maybe it was His actual dying and the LIFE leaving Him that was alarming. It seems He died very soon after He said that.
Mat 27:50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Great Thought. Let me put as well, THANK YOU LORD FOR DOING ALL THAT FOR ME! :)
Amazing Love, Amazing Grace
Eugene
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Watchman,
The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?". Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father. Jesus is not His own Father. Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.
(Did you love that Enigma paper? I did.)
Gina
Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.
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Watchman,
The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?". Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father. Jesus is not His own Father. Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.
(Did you love that Enigma paper? I did.)
Gina
Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.
a little misquote there isnt it??? "...ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." (5:37) how does that refer to "no on" heard of the Father??
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Exactly. Why say it if it weren't true?
Isaiah 54:8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.
It was only for a little while. I don't know if this verse is any help, but if God the Father was angry, He wasn't angry with Jesus because Jesus didn't do anything deserving of God's wrath. But I imagine if it is true, God was angered by what He had to witness was happening to His Son. I don't think He wanted to forsake Him but He had to in order for death to come. But it was only for a little while. And of course, we all know that He redeemed Jesus from the grave.
My 2 cents.
That verse is referencing Israel, not Christ. Jesus was never forsaken.
John 8:29 The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him
"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matt 2:15) ="When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son" (Hosea 11:1) ---Now Matthew has some explaining to do....or he doesnt cause he understand a principle....
Just as i said once before, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom 14:5)
Eugene, Matthew's passage has nothing to do with Isaiah 54...you're confusing the issue.
Again, thanks Shorty. That Isaiah 54 is just another scripture i never saw before, and using Paul and the Apostle's hermeneutics: there are alot of Scripture that Christ can "open our understanding" on and see it's applies to Christ.
thanks for everyone's viewpoint. thanks alot, i really appreciate it
Eugene
Eugene, if you really cared about hermeneutics in regards to Paul and the apostles, you wouldn't ignore their words when explaining the very passage you falsely claim as representing Christ. The very first verse in Isaiah 54 should be all we need to realize who is being spoken to and more importantly by Whom:
Isaiah 54:1 “Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.
Paul himself quotes this very verse and explains the symbolism:
Gal 4:21-27 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic.
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.”
Notice Paul's words: "corresponds to Jerusalem". Not Christ. Further proof within Isaiah 54:
Isaiah 54:4 "Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed; Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame; For you will forget the shame of your youth, And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore.
So through hermeneutics, we learn that Christ will 'forget the SHAME of His youth' and the 'REPROACH of His widowhood'? When has Christ ever been associated with shame and widowhood? This is what happens when we attempt to find scriptures to fit our pet theories instead of actually READING what the scriptures say.
Getting back to 'shame and widowhood'...who do we read of having these type of negative qualities?
Rev 18:4-8 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
It is a WOMAN being spoken to in Isaiah 54, symbolically. This WOMAN has the same attributes as the symbolic WOMAN in Revelation 18. That is what you would call a SPIRITUAL MATCH. Both these women refer to Israel aka the church, all groups of people who claim to serve the True Living God but spread false doctrine in His name.
You do not get a spiritual match from one verse referencing Christ as Israel and then assuming EVERY verse talking about Israel is talking about Christ. That's how you get crazy ideas like the Father forsaking His Son and other such nonsense.
Notice in the same passage of Isaiah 54 the Lord speaking of displaying His WRATH in turning away ('With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment' - Isa 54:8 ). Do we really need to go through all Ray's studies about how the Father never brought His wrath onto His Son?
And to top it all off, a few members mentioned the 'Solving the Enigma of God' paper...that paper explains WHO was actually speaking to who in Isaiah 54. It is Jehovah speaking to Israel. And if you have read this paper, you understand that Jehovah is 'Jesus Saves'. So it is Christ speaking, and not to Himself but to His people about where they've been spiritually and where they're going spiritually.
Marques
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I know exactly where my problem is coming from now. I thought about it all day. If this passage is not spurious, then it means that as Jesus hung on the cross dying and feeling very abandoned (that is, assuming He was feeling abandoned and not simply pretending -- the way He pretended with His disciples at one point), it means He was feeling abandoned by the Father. But since some believe He wasn't actually abandoned by His father, then he must've been delusional at that point. Because to say one thing in direct opposition to what was actually taking place would mean that Jesus was not speaking the truth. But the Word of God doesn't contradict.
I guess it's frightening also to think that our Lord had DOUBTS -- much like John the Baptist -- at least, in my mind that's the way it sounds -- or like Mary "Lord if you had been here my brother would not have died." (Jesus was directed by the Father to purposely forsake Mary and her brother Lazarus for days so that Lazarus could die, in order that Jesus could bring Him back to life!)
But anyway... I don't think that Jesus was delusional and I don't think that He had any doubt.
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Did or did not GOD forsake His Son Jesus? We know according to Scripture Jesus did make the statement. Do we have scripture that tells us one way or the other if God forsaken His only Son Jesus? If not, then we are just speculating according to ones own belief.
Thanks.
d
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Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Do You believe the scriptures -
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Do You believe the scriptures -
To Us ignoramuses we should not attempt to despise his word and to show ourselves knowledgeable, but when we speak things we do not know this borders on heresy
YES even in Death he goes with you HE NEVER LEAVES YOU NOR FAILS YOU NOR FORSAKES YOU
WE all come to the point where it SEEMS like this God Has Forsaken us
BUT WHAT SAY THE SCRIPTURES
AGAIN - DO YOU BELIEVE
pleasure
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Watchman,
The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?". Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father. Jesus is not His own Father. Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.
(Did you love that Enigma paper? I did.)
Gina
Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.
a little misquote there isnt it??? "...ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." (5:37) how does that refer to "no on" heard of the Father??
A little paraphrase that does not change the words nor meaning of the scripture. No-one had ever seen direct evidence of the Father. The only evidence that we have that the Father ever existed is Jesus himself. It was Jesus in the cool of the garden, Jesus at the cleft of the rock. Yet everyone who doesn't understand their relationship which is infinite are always trying to separate the 2 with finite understanding, while Jesus himself said they are one. We know him as Jesus because he manifested himself before us like that. Before, he was EL. He couldn't turn up before us like that or we would be consumed, but always himself.
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Hi thewatchman,
I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.
Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Excuse me for the pun here but..
Marques nailed it!
The Son was not forsaken by His Father nor did He have any doubts of why He came, who He was or what He was to do.
To add to what John said, this is a bad spirit to be taking on.
God bless,
Alex
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OK forgive me but I am inclined to see the whole event as a parable -
where we become helpless,scorned ,spat on, where we have our hands nailed down and cannot use them [works ] we have our feet nailed down and cannot walk - our gut [side] is torn, we are helpless and no works can save us, we are then raised up as sons of the living God,and walk in power as did Jesus, I see the scripture Jesus screamed 'why have you forsaken me' but is this not the route we all go on ? then the power of the living God causes us to rise up ?
I gave 2 witnesses earlier and cannot find any witness for God Forsaking his plan .... or have I totally lost it ??
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Hi thewatchman,
I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.
Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I don't agree Kat. I think that misunderstands the relationship. I believe that Jesus created it all. God is spirit and the power he used to do it. He was there from before the beginning. NOT a lesser carbon copy. But Psalms calls him prince of peace AND everlasting father.....certainly the only father we have ever seen
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Hi thewatchman,
I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.
Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I don't agree Kat. I think that misunderstands the relationship. I believe that Jesus created it all. God is spirit and the power he used to do it. He was there from before the beginning. NOT a lesser carbon copy. But Psalms calls him prince of peace AND everlasting father.....certainly the only father we have ever seen
I wasn't following the exchange between you and kat very well watchman but do you believe that Jesus is the Father? Jesus is His own Father?
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Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God .....
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Hi thewatchman,
I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.
Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I don't agree Kat. I think that misunderstands the relationship. I believe that Jesus created it all. God is spirit and the power he used to do it. He was there from before the beginning. NOT a lesser carbon copy. But Psalms calls him prince of peace AND everlasting father.....certainly the only father we have ever seen
I wasn't following the exchange between you and kat very well watchman but do you believe that Jesus is the Father? Jesus is His own Father?
No I don't. I believe that the only father we have seen in this dispensation of creation has been Jesus. But if he and the Father are one then why do we try to understand his relationship with his father like birthing a son in our way/ If God IS spirit, then this is not possible. That is just small and finite thinking. Everything was created through Jesus. If he has a father outside of time then we will never comprehend that relationship. But as far as Fathership and we are concerned. He is our father and that's all we need concern ourselves with.
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I do not quite understand the "my God, my God," in Matt. and Mark but I believe I understand those words coming from David wondering why God seemed not present at that time.
Jesus was prophesying those words from David to those around Him, they could not see that He was their God and He spoke "why have you(those there,) why have you forsaken me."
At least in that way I can understand, maybe. Where I never understood that verse at all before.
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Marques and John are right on point. I'd also like to add Psalm 22:24.
"For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him." (ESV)
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John 12: 29 The Father gave Me commandments what I speak and say.
John 14:10 The Father that dwells in Me, He does the works.
John 14:24 The word that you hear is not Mine but the Father’s.
With that, GOD did not forsake His Son Jesus!
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"...My God my God why hast thou forsaken me"
The word that is translated "forsaken" is the greek "egkataleipō",
which is made up of the two words "en" and "kataleipo"
"kataleipo" in Strongs definition means: "to leave"
Could it be that the question Jesus asks " My God my God, why has thou left me" He himself answers in the Scriptures ?
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave (kataleipo) his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh
Is there a spritual match in the New Testament?
Ephesians 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Since the other posters have written their opinion, I thought I could too, so I just did :)
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I do not quite understand the "my God, my God," in Matt. and Mark but I believe I understand those words coming from David wondering why God seemed not present at that time.
Jesus was prophesying those words from David to those around Him, they could not see that He was their God and He spoke "why have you(those there,) why have you forsaken me."
At least in that way I can understand, maybe. Where I never understood that verse at all before.
Once one considers and realizes that Jesus was quoting Psa. 22, speaking the prophecy as the way the Messiah must die, and not having dialouge or asking a question, it must become clear as to what was recorded. Jesus, Jehovah, the Lord God, was NEVER in anyway forsaken or left alone.
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Is there a spritual match in the New Testament?
Ephesians 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Since the other posters have written their opinion, I thought I could too, so I just did :)
Found an un matched match regarding your understanding of The Lord leaving us....
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
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Couple of different translations to consider. It seems to support what Kat was trying to say.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was kept! (translated by George Lamsa)
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, "God, God, why have you spared me?" (translated by LWM)
Matthew 27: 46. And about the ninth hour, Y’shua cried out with a loud voice and said, My El! My El! [Lemana shabakthani] Why have you spared me? (AENT)
"Father, I'm ready, why can’t we finish this?" Is what I'm getting.
Either way all good responses. Ive always wondered about this too. Thanks for sharing. :)
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Couple of different translations to consider. It seems to support what Kat was trying to say.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was kept! (translated by George Lamsa)
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, "God, God, why have you spared me?" (translated by LWM)
Matthew 27: 46. And about the ninth hour, Y’shua cried out with a loud voice and said, My El! My El! [Lemana shabakthani] Why have you spared me? (AENT)
"Father, I'm ready, why can’t we finish this?" Is what I'm getting.
Either way all good responses. Ive always wondered about this too. Thanks for sharing. :)
Thanks for sharing G! I think there are alot of great answers too! I love those scriptural pieces you've shared. Its amazing with time how we truly glean from God little things here and there that give us insight and depth into just who our God is. I see a God I can relate too just a little more as each day passes by.
God bless,
Alex
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From Ray’s emails:
I do not believe that God "turned His back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
Jesus was telling them who the Messiah was. Hey chaps this is your Messiah you just knocked up on this piece of wood.
Lord not my will but Thy will be done.
The perfect sinless sacrifice for the world. How could you beat this sort of love.
Rhys
That kind of so called love can be beaten quite easily.
A loving father would not demand his son's murder in the first place but he himself would step up if one was required.
God set the conditions.
As above so below.
How would you express your love if you decided a death was required?
Would you have your son killed or would you step up to fill your own requirements and demands for a sacrifice?
Should fathers bury sons or should sons bury fathers?
I think sons should bury fathers. That is natural.
Regards
DL
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Definition of forsake:
1. To give up (something formerly held dear); renounce: e.g. forsook liquor.
2. To leave altogether; abandon: e.g. forsook Hollywood and returned to the legitimate stage.
Romans 8:11 "and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead ... "
Acts 2: 24 "whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death,..."
Seems to me that if "God had indeed forsaken Jesus", then God would not have raised him up from the dead, seeing that He had abandoned him or renounced him (left him altogether).
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Hi DL,
The sovereign God determined that He would put His creation through all this and then God Himself would come down and live among us and experience the same things that He requires of us.
But do not think that the Father just sent His son off to do His dirty work for Him?
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Jesus Christ was the perfect image of the Father, it's like the Father created Himself in a form that can be seen and heard, to represent Him perfectly in every way. But Christ had a beginning, unlike the Father, He came forth from the Father and so was not the Father of course.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
The Oneness that Christ had with the Father was manifold, is much more than just like mindedness. I believe the Father shared and experienced everything through Christ. So even though the Son is who they saw and heard on earth and the One that died (to become the first fruit raised from the dead)... His Father certainly went through everything that He endured and went through. The Father suffered, maybe not physical pain, but I certainly believe the Father suffered as much or more through what His Son had to go through.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Definition of forsake:
1. To give up (something formerly held dear); renounce: e.g. forsook liquor.
2. To leave altogether; abandon: e.g. forsook Hollywood and returned to the legitimate stage.
Romans 8:11 "and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead ... "
Acts 2: 24 "whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death,..."
Seems to me that if "God had indeed forsaken Jesus", then God would not have raised him up from the dead, seeing that He had abandoned him or renounced him (left him altogether).
A man can die. God cannot die.
Did Jesus/God die?
Impossible.
Unless you have a quote that says God can die.
You do not.
Regards
DL
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Hi DL,
The sovereign God determined that He would put His creation through all this and then God Himself would come down and live among us and experience the same things that He requires of us.
But do not think that the Father just sent His son off to do His dirty work for Him?
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Jesus Christ was the perfect image of the Father, it's like the Father created Himself in a form that can be seen and heard, to represent Him perfectly in every way. But Christ had a beginning, unlike the Father, He came forth from the Father and so was not the Father of course.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
The Oneness that Christ had with the Father was manifold, is much more than just like mindedness. I believe the Father shared and experienced everything through Christ. So even though the Son is who they saw and heard on earth and the One that died (to become the first fruit raised from the dead)... His Father certainly went through everything that He endured and went through. The Father suffered, maybe not physical pain, but I certainly believe the Father suffered as much or more through what His Son had to go through.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
If you are right, then the unchanging God must learn and change all the time.
Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
You say that Jesus and God were close yet ---only the father knows the time of the end; as well as dozens more quotes that say Jesus did not see himself as God.
No point in getting into a quote war though. Not my style so please do not start. We both know that the bible can be made to say damn near anything.
"But do not think that the Father just sent His son off to do His dirty work for Him?"
That is what scriptures, tradition and dogma say, yes.
Did the father die and if so, I will accept that quote that says God can die.
Regards
DL
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Greatest I am:
I was actually attempting to address Eugene's original question in the post. I am sorry, but I was not trying to argue with you or disprove your point.
There are many scriptures in every translation that state that Jesus died and was raised.
No it doesn't say that God died.
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Hi DL,
I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from with a lot of your post. God is perfect and has no need to change, how do you improve perfection.
Psa 18:30 As for God, His way is perfect;
The word of the LORD is proven;
He is a shield to all who trust in Him.
He determined a perfect plan for this creation, He designed it from beginning to end exactly how it will be, nothing can be changed in a perfect plan.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
The Father and the Son are One, but are not the same being. Jesus made many statements that prove that.
John 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, "I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, "I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
So if Jesus was not God, then you're saying that He was just a human being? This is from the 09 conference I think it will help you see why Jesus could not have been 'just' a man.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html ---------
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
v. 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.
Some people would use that to prove that Christ cannot be referred to as God, because He said “only God (speaking of His Father here) is good.” But when He said this, He had divested Himself of all His power and glory, so He was in human form in the weakened state of flesh.
v
Could a man, just a man now, be the Savior of the world? See, if you’re going to argue that Jesus Christ was a man, only a man and nothing divine about him, there are all kinds of problems, just philosophically speaking.
Why would He have to be conceived by God? Why? He’s just a man and men are born all the time. So we want him to be of the line of Judah. All right, fine, let’s get a Jewish boy. You get a Jewish boy and Jewish girl, we’ll marry them and they’ll have a baby boy and he’ll be the Savior of the world. Why not?
Think about it. Let’s think about all the words. Why did Jesus have to be conceived by His Father? Why, if He’s just a man. Jewish women have boys all the time. If He had to be something special above a man, then He was no longer ‘just a man.’ Did I say something wrong? If He had to be something more than a man, then He’s more than a man, He’s not just a man.
Is any Jewish boy’s life worth all the billions of humanity combined? Is any Jewish boy worth that? [attendee: No.] How so?
Why didn’t God say, We need a Jewish boy… Jacobson, we’ll use you, we’re going to crucify you and you’re going to save the world that way. -- ‘Me?’
Yeah, what do you do for a living? -- ‘I’m a carpenter.’
Yeah, that will do. You’re a carpenter, okay. We’ll kill you and that way I’ll save the whole world. -- ‘Of what value am I that my life is worth more than the whole world of humanity, billions of people?
What would God say? Well yeah, you’re worth more than the rest of humanity put together. -- ‘How so? Why?’
So why was He conceived by God? If God wanted a man He could have chosen any man. If He wanted him to be born of a virgin… fine, he could be born of a virgin. But why did He have to be conceived by God Himself? WHY?
v
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
v. 29 how much worse punishment, do you suppose, shall he be thought worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, (that’s the blood of Jesus Christ) wherein He was sanctified, an unholy thing…
“An unholy thing” is the word ‘koinos’ (Strong’s 2839) it means common, something that is shared by all or several.
In other words, just a man, same as any other man, common. It is also translated as ‘unclean’ when talking about ceremonial things.
Greek-English Keyword Concordance:
Common, belonging to all equally, by implication, NOT SACRED, contaminating (“to make common”).
Vines Concise Dictionary of the Bible:
Koinos - common, ordinary; belonging to the generality as distinct from something that is peculiar.
So it is, woe be if you consider the blood of Jesus Christ to be like any other man’s blood. Yet one man told me that ‘His blood was no better than mine.’ Whoa, I would fear to even think something like that, let alone say it.
He was not common. He was not what is shared by everyone. It says
Php 2:7 …and took upon Him the form of a servant…
Rom 8:3 …God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh…
Heb 2:7 You made Him a little lower than the angels;
He took on the form of a servant and He was made like unto sinful flesh and He was made a little lower than the angels… it’s not talking about somebody who came out in a natural childbirth. He was MADE. The scriptures say He was “made a little lower (or for a little while lower) than the angels.” WHY? So He could die!
v
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his (humanity) feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him (under humanity).
v. 9 But we see Jesus, who was MADE…
You see that word, He was MADE. He wasn’t always that way. He had to be MADE that way. Now, if He were just a man born of a woman, He wouldn’t have had to be made anything. Any man born of a woman will die. “It is appointed unto all men once to die,” but the only way Jesus could die was that God had to MAKE Him lower than the angels, so that He could die. Are you following me? Does it make sense? That Jesus was not ‘just’ born, before He got to the process of actually being born. He had to be MADE something else from what He was. WHY? Because what He was, He couldn’t die. God didn’t force this on Him. We learn all through the scriptures, Jesus Christ ‘volunteered.’
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
v. 18 No man takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
He said nobody takes My life. God the Father did not say, I’m going to sacrifice You, come hell or high water and You aren’t going to have nothing to say about it. He said, “I lay down My life,” “I” do it, He says. He volunteered.
So, He was made a little lower than the angels for or because of the fact that He had to die.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Newjene87: YES , GOD had to foresake JESUS in HIS final moment, as HE/FATHER had to take HIS/SON life ???? As one can not state that GOD did not foresake JESUS and with the next breath say GOD did take his life ? There are practical reasons why this had to happen in this way ! I have touched upon this all important matter in my testimony . Our irrifutable propitiation I have revealed why allready but no one has worked it out yet ::)
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Q: Did God forsake His Son on the cross? A: No !!!
But then the big question is: why did Jesus say ”
"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
I contemplated this last week for the umpteenth time, and suddenly I heard The Spirit say loud and clear: ”mediator”. And no, that does not happen to me on a day to day basis :), so I rushed to my computer and started studying .Before I show you the Scriptures, here is definitions of two important words:
From the Freedictionary.com
a mediator
1. One that mediates, especially one that reconciles differences between disputants.
2. Physiology A substance or structure that mediates a specific response in a bodily tissue
To intercede
1. To plead on another's behalf.
2. To act as mediator in a dispute
Now the Scriptures:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1 Timothy 2:5
There it is!! Jesus spoke on our behalf!! That is why he did not say ”My Father, My Father, why hast thou forsaken me” Jesus was speaking/crying on our behalf,for all mankind.
But there is so much more to this
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." Gal 3:20
Compare this verse to the first verse I quoted, and notice the last 4 words:”...the man Christ Jesus”.
In the ”equation” : God-mediator-man , Jesus not only became the mediator, He became the man .
Because:
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Rom 3:10-11
It is the age old question ”Adam, where art thou?” being answered by the last Adam :Jesus on the cross with His arms stretched out open wide crying out ” Here I Am”
He became man seeking/pleading with God , and the mediator .
Because He cried ”My God, my God...” the following verse has become a reality:
"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Gal 4:6
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" 1. Cr 1: 17-18
I will stop now and wish you and your loved ones a happy easter.
Kind regards