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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Ian on June 30, 2011, 04:45:59 PM
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Hello,
I have a question regarding what happens when one dies. Now, I believe that when one dies, they are dead not alive somewhere else; "sleeping" until resurrection.
Recently, however, I have come across some confusing passages and was hoping that you could (would) please help me?
The Scriptural support I have for "soul sleep" (a term which is actually a misnomer), are the following verses: Ps. 115:17, Ps. 6:5, Ps. 146:6, Is. 38:18a, Joshua 1:1-2, Job 14:13-14, Ps. 49:15, Ecclesiastes 9:10, 1 Corinthians 15:18-19, 1 Thes. 4:13-14,...
However, while researching the subject, I ran across some verses the other night that perplexed me. They are: Hebrews 9:27, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 12:4, 1 Peter 3:18-20...
I still believe in this doctrine, but I'm pretty confused right now. Please help me.
Ian.
P.S. Yes, I have read Ray's material regarding this "doctrine". That is why I believe what I do.
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Hello Ian
Welcome to the Forum.
It is refreshing to see a Beren who is thinking, seeking, investigating and is at liberty to express the desire for deeper insight and understanding into the ways of Father and Son.
What perplexes me, is the comfort that Dictatorial Doctrinal Religion professes in placing focus and physical idols to keep our eyes on the death of Jesus and not the Glorious message that is contained in the victory over death in the Resurrection of Jesus.
The Kingdom of God is within. They agree. Yet do they teach that the King is in the Kingdom, within? Nope ~ :D
I know a few who research, think and have a vista of insight that is magnificent. Maybe they will see you and drop you a line ~ :)
Arc
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Hi Ian, welcome to the Forum.
Can you please elaborate a little on why the second list of verses perplex you?
Grape
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Hi Ian,
Welcome to the forum :)
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
For the many this is speaking about a physical death in this life and then resurrected to judgment in the lake of fire. For the few now we are dying to self and are being judged now, "for the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" (1Pe 4:17).
2Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul had just said in verse 1 "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord."
Here is a email explanation for 2 Cor. 5:8.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=1265.0 ------
Most Christians believe that this verse read: "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord." Not so. Even the King James doesnot have the word "is" in it, but rather "and."
Here is maybe the very best translation on this verse:
"Rather to be away from homes, out of the body, and to COME home unto the Lord" (Rotherham's Bible).
Either way: King James--"and TO BE [FUTURE]..." Or Rotherham--"and to COME..." It is something that happens sometime after death, not at death. It, of course, happens at the Resurrection of the dead, which is yet future.
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Php 1:23 For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.
This verse is the same as in the email. Paul was speaking about when he died the next moment of his consciousness would be at the resurrection and he knew he would be with Christ, as if in a instant.
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Ian, welcome to the BT Forum!
Hebrews 9:27-28 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.
Not sure what the confusion is here, this passage is pretty self-explanatory. Everyone dies; then those who face judgment are resurrected in the "resurrection to judgment". (John 5:29; Acts 24:15) Can you please explain what confuses you?
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Don't make the common mistake of misinterpreting this verse as if it said "TO BE absent from the body is TO BE present with the Lord". That's not what it means or implies. Paul talks often of dead people being "put to repose" or asleep until resurrection, as you already know seeing that you included a few quotes from his letters in your post.
When all else fails, read the context. The key to understanding this passage is in the previous 5 verses:
For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens. For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven, if so be that, being dressed also, we shall not be found naked. For we also, who are in the tabernacle, are groaning, being burdened, on which we are not wanting to be stripped, but to be dressed, that the mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He Who produces us for this same longing is God, Who is also giving us the earnest of the spirit. - Concordant Literal Translation
Notice the italicized parts. This "terrestrial tabernacle house" that Paul is speaking about is our body (with its sinful lusts and carnal mind). We are groaning and burdened because of our daily battles against our sinful nature. That's why Paul says we prefer to be away from the body, so that we can be free from its sinful lusts and cravings. Being "at home with the Lord" is not speaking of Heaven. When Jesus returns and sets up His Kingdom, we will be "at home" with Him.
Philippians 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Don't make the assumption that Paul thinks he will be "instantly" with Christ once he dies. But let's also understand that when we die, we "return" the same state we were before we were born: unconsciousness. So, think about it this way: Paul is dead right now. He's been dead for over 1,900 years. But he doesn't "know" it (Ecclesiastes 9:5). When Paul is resurrected, the last thing he will remember is how he died. So, from his perspective, it will seem as though he departed, and then was at home with Christ! That's good and comforting news if you ask me!
2 Corinthians 12:1-4 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to VISIONS and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
This is similar to the event in Matthew 17:9. It was a "vision", like a dream. This man Paul knew had a vision. Not sure what he means by "whether in the body or out of the body I do not know", but he states clearly that this was a vision, which is not an actual event.
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
The phrase "in which" refers to the Spirit.. He was "made alive in the Spirit, in which..." speaking of the same Spirit "He went and preached..." When did He preach? Long ago "while the ark was being prepared". I believe the key to understanding this passage is in 2 Peter 2:4-5:
For if God ... did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
Noah was a "preacher". Peter says that the ancient prophets spoke through and were influenced by the "spirit of Christ" (1 Peter 1:11). So, when Noah "preached", warning those people of the coming judgment of the deluge, he spoke by the Spirit of Christ.
Hope this helps.
Daywalker 8)
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1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Added verse 21 because it gives clues as to what these verses are referring to. It is not that Jesus went and preached to those who died in the flood, but that the flood was a type/shadow of spiritual baptism that cleans us of sin.
It seems that the use of the word "prison" in these verses is another name for "practicing sinners".
Thankfully these verses do not stand alone, or else I would have still believed Jesus went on some preaching mission in hell immediately after He died. This is something I used to actually preach to others before finding BT, so I can relate to you being perplexed.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
This prophecy in Isa. was actually fulfilled BEFORE Jesus was killed and resurrected.
Luk 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luk 4:19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luk 4:20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
Luk 4:21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
Hope this helps,
G.Driggs
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Hello,
I have a question regarding what happens when one dies. Now, I believe that when one dies, they are dead not alive somewhere else; "sleeping" until resurrection.
Recently, however, I have come across some confusing passages and was hoping that you could (would) please help me?
The Scriptural support I have for "soul sleep" (a term which is actually a misnomer), are the following verses: Ps. 115:17, Ps. 6:5, Ps. 146:6, Is. 38:18a, Joshua 1:1-2, Job 14:13-14, Ps. 49:15, Ecclesiastes 9:10, 1 Corinthians 15:18-19, 1 Thes. 4:13-14,...
However, while researching the subject, I ran across some verses the other night that perplexed me. They are: Hebrews 9:27, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 12:4, 1 Peter 3:18-20...
I still believe in this doctrine, but I'm pretty confused right now. Please help me.
Ian.
P.S. Yes, I have read Ray's material regarding this "doctrine". That is why I believe what I do.
Yeah. The account of Paul's experience mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4, he explained it in depth in an gospel that was removed. He talked about what he saw during his experience in that removed gospel. I think that experience occurred when he was stoned and left for dead. (found in Acts)And what's interesting is that Paul mentioned he visited third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:4, the theology of different heavens were also explained in depth in 2 enoch that was also removed(almost included but wasn't) it actually quotes scriptures from jude that is in the bible too. There's many details that was removed that may have made some scriptures make more sense.
Sorry I couldn't be much help,
Denise
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1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Added verse 21 because it gives clues as to what these verses are referring to. It is not that Jesus went and preached to those who died in the flood, but that the flood was a type/shadow of spiritual baptism that cleans us of sin.
It seems that the use of the word "prison" in these verses is another name for "practicing sinners".
Thankfully these verses do not stand alone, or else I would have still believed Jesus went on some preaching mission in hell immediately after He died. This is something I used to actually preach to others before finding BT, so I can relate to you being perplexed.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
This prophecy in Isa. was actually fulfilled BEFORE Jesus was killed and resurrected.
Luk 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luk 4:19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luk 4:20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
Luk 4:21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
Hope this helps,
G.Driggs
Thanks!! :)
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Hello Ian, welcome to the BT Forum!
Hebrews 9:27-28 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.
Not sure what the confusion is here, this passage is pretty self-explanatory. Everyone dies; then those who face judgment are resurrected in the "resurrection to judgment". (John 5:29; Acts 24:15) Can you please explain what confuses you?
My confusion stemmed from the fact that orthodoxy makes it seem like when you die, you're immediately judged.
I did think of your truth, though (after one dies, resurrection, then judgment).
Yeah. The account of Paul's experience mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4, he explained it in depth in an gospel that was removed. He talked about what he saw during his experience in that removed gospel. I think that experience occurred when he was stoned and left for dead. (found in Acts)And what's interesting is that Paul mentioned he visited third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:4, the theology of different heavens were also explained in depth in 2 enoch that was also removed(almost included but wasn't) it actually quotes scriptures from jude that is in the bible too. There's many details that was removed that may have made some scriptures make more sense.
Sorry I couldn't be much help,
Denise
Thank you for this insight! I was aware about Jude quoting Enoch, and perhaps II Peter, but I never knew about that other gospel.
Thank you all for answering!
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Thanks!! :)
No prob. And thank you daywalker, you've been a real inspiration to me lately. I'm not just saying that either. You and ALL here at BT are very much appreciated.
Good questions Ian. :)
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Death is not physical. We die daily.
Life is not physical. We have the earnest of His Spirit in our hearts who is the Way the Truth and the Life.
The earnest of His Spirit in our hearts does not die, though we sleep.
Seeing as Jesus sees, is being awake.
Jesus is come in the flesh.
Jesus likens death to sleep.
The Scriptures tell us to wake up. Rom 13:11 This is necessary because you know the times-that it's time for you to wake up from sleep.
Arc
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Thank you all for the comments. While further researching the subject, I found... this artcle ***No Links Allowed***
Now I do not agree with what she says, as she seems to be ignoring context. For example...
2. Scripture teaches that the spirits of men are fully conscious after separation
from the body at death.
e. They can feel pain.
Luke 16:23, 24
Revelation 20:10 ("torment" = Greek basanizo, meaning "to vex with
great pain" – as Matthew 8:29)
What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?
Could something critique this for me?
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Hi Ian,
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Concerning this verse in Luke, here is where Ray explains it.
http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html ----------------
And how could this man "literally" lift up his eyes in "hell" seeing that hell is the translation of the Greek word hades which means the UNSEEN or IMPERCEPTIBLE? To "see" one can’t be in the UNSEEN, nor can it be a place of NO perception. The parable says that he "died" and was entombed, but that he "lifts up his eyes" in hades. He can’t be literally dead and literally alive at the same time and in two different locations.
Hades is a Greek word (and is synonymous with Sheol in the Hebrew O.T.) and it has a meaning. The elements are "UN-PERCEIVED." It can be properly translated into English as "unseen" or "imperceptible." Now how can one "see" in the unseen?" It’s ridiculous. How can anyone have "perception" in the "imperceptible?" The dead can’t "see," It’s a parable.
There is no consciousness in [Heb: Sheol] or [Gk: Hades](Psa. 146:4)--none. "Sheol" and "Hades" are synonymous in Scripture.
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What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?
Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev. 20 is speaking of the the resurrection, when all will face judgement, even Satan, which will seem quite torturous to some.
Here is where Ray speaks about this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html --------------------------------
Next I present a Scripture that many fundamentalists hate. I’ll bet if you attended a fundamentalist church, you never heard a sermon on this verse. We read that God has appointed a day (a period of time) in which He will "JUDGE" the whole world. Revelation 20:10-15 IS THAT DAY OF JUDGMENT! Now we know that those not found in the book of life will be put into FIRE, and they will be TORMENTED. This is certainly part of this judgment. But it is not literal fire. Literal fire burns up physical things and literal fire cannot harm spiritual things. So what does the fire do or accomplish? MUCH!
This judgment in Revelation 20 IS that worldwide judgment spoken of in many prophecies. But is the purpose of this worldwide judgment to torture people by burning their flesh in real fire for all eternity? Is that HOW God judges in "righteousness"? Absolutely not. We just read where God burns up our fleshly WORKS, and this is "tormenting" for sure. But God does not torture our flesh for all eternity. Don’t get me wrong, there will be severe chastisements on those who despise God and His Savior and His Gospel. But out of their ashes will come salvation. Here is another marvelous Scripture which answers what happens to sinning humanity when God JUDGES THE WORLD in righteousness.
"For he [GOD] bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low, HE LAYETH IT LOW, even to the ground, he bringeth it even to the dust" (Isa. 26:5)
Make no mistake, God will judge the wicked with great severity. However, ALWAYS FOR A BENEVOLENT PURPOSE:
"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9)!!
There will come a time when those who only knew how to blaspheme the name of God, will come to LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. They will not just "hear" of righteousness, no, they will actually "LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS"!
The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL. Notice Isa. 45:22-23,
"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness [as in, ‘For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,’ I Tim. 2:3-4] , and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (See also: Phil. 2: 9-11 & I Cor. 12:3).
God’s words will NOT return empty or void. When God speaks, it will be done. When God wills, it will be done. When God desires, His desires WILL BE DONE:
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE ... I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isa. 46:10-11).
Oh the blasphemy of those who teach that God’s most heartfelt desires WILL NOT COME TO PASS, but will utterly fail!!! Jesus Christ is not the potential Savior of the world; He IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!! HE WILL SAVE THE WORLD!!!
How many self-appointed, bible-thumping, doomsday, fire and brimstone, eternal torture in hell preachers believe these verses in Isaiah? Not one that I know of! Most Christians have never been taught the Scriptures that I am giving you. These things are despised by many who call themselves "Christian." And yet, God’s Word is FULL of such statements of God’s salvation to all.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you all for the comments. While further researching the subject, I found... this artcle ***No Links Allowed***
Now I do not agree with what she says, as she seems to be ignoring context. For example...
2. Scripture teaches that the spirits of men are fully conscious after separation
from the body at death.
e. They can feel pain.
Luke 16:23, 24
Revelation 20:10 ("torment" = Greek basanizo, meaning "to vex with
great pain" – as Matthew 8:29)
What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?
Could something critique this for me?
Absolutely nothing.
And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Concordant)
Neither the Adversary, the wild beast, or the false prophet are beings that are separated from their bodies.
Luke 16:23-24 is part of a parable (Rich man and Lazarus). But don't try to convince Christians that parables are "fictional", because they're convinced that a finger dipped in water can actually cool your tongue if you're engulfed in fire ("send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water and cooling my tongue, for I am pained in this flame"). Seriously...
Daywalker 8)
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Thank you all for the comments. While further researching the subject, I found... this artcle ***No Links Allowed***
Now I do not agree with what she says, as she seems to be ignoring context. For example...
2. Scripture teaches that the spirits of men are fully conscious after separation
from the body at death.
e. They can feel pain.
Luke 16:23, 24
Revelation 20:10 ("torment" = Greek basanizo, meaning "to vex with
great pain" – as Matthew 8:29)
What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?
Could something critique this for me?
Absolutely nothing.
And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Concordant)
Neither the Adversary, the wild beast, or the false prophet are beings that are separated from their bodies.
Luke 16:23-24 is part of a parable (Rich man and Lazarus). But don't try to convince Christians that parables are "fictional", because they're convinced that a finger dipped in water can actually cool your tongue if you're engulfed in fire ("send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water and cooling my tongue, for I am pained in this flame"). Seriously...
Daywalker 8)
It was a hypothetical question. I know that "neither the Adversary, the wild beast, or the false prophet are beings that are separated from their bodies."
The reason I ask is because it seems that she violently rips verses out of their contexts.
Thank you for responding!
Oh, when I wrote "Could something critique this for me?" I was alluding to the page as a whole, not the text.
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Oh, when I wrote "Could something critique this for me?" I was alluding to the page as a whole, not the text.
Hello Ian,
I removed the link because one of our forum rules is not to post links to other teachings/preaching. This forum is not for critiquing other sites but to discuss what we learn from Bible Truths.
Hope you understand,
Marques
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More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".
While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.
If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?
Thank you very much. God bless you.
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More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".
While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.
If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?
Thank you very much. God bless you.
I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??
Antaiwan
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Hi Ian,
Well you know that you can find false theories about everything, we have to come to a point where we have faith that what we have is what God inspired and is using to teach His Elect. Pray for faith so that you can accept and believe the Scriptures and let God teach you these truths.
Here are a couple of emails that will help with this thing about Saul spirit being brought back by a witch.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,124.0.html -------
Dear Anton:
Saul does not obey or trust God.
So he goes to a pagan inspired witch that are condemned in Israel.
The witch has a familiar spirit--a demon.
Saul asks the witch to call up Samuel's spirit--a pagan teaching.
God actually caused this opportunity to tell Saul his fate by the channel that Saul himself choose.
God revealed the fate of Saul through this witch.
Samuel was never there. Saul assumed that the "old man" had to be Samuel. It was not.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=742.0 ----------------
Dear Peter:
Samuel was unconscious and DEAD during that whole Witch of Endor scenario. Our "spirit" does not have consciousness upon death. No witch or demon has the power to bring a dead person back to life. God uses "LYING SPIRITS" to comune with evil people such as Saul (See I Kings 22:22-23 & II Chron. 18:22-23).
God be with you,
Ray
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More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".
While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.
If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?
Thank you very much. God bless you.
I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??
Antaiwan
If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.
I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).
I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.
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More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".
While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.
If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?
Thank you very much. God bless you.
I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??
Antaiwan
If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.
I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).
I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.
I took a look at the entire chapter of Samuel to see what I could out of it. I personally don't see it as anything contradicting to the fact that when you are dead, you're dead. I can't say for certain what saul saw, but I want to lean on the idea that He was seeing a vision of sorts. That it wasn't LITERALLY happening. A vision that God caused him to have, though we do see a conversation between saul and the dead samual, I do believe it was just a vision he was having when he visited this woman.
As far as Isaiah is concerned; I really can't see AT ALL what your confusion is or how this contradicts what is said in Psalms6:5.
Hell = Hades = The unseen, the unpercievable = The grave. Everyone goes to "hell" one day or another.
Lastly, with Job, again.. not really sure where the confusion lies. Job is talking about a FUTURE time, notice he uses the words "SHALL (meaning future) and "LATTER DAYS" (meaning future.)
Thats all I have for now... Just think carefully, remember God doesn't contradict Himself and neither do His Words.
Hope this helps!
God bless,
Alex
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More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".
While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.
If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?
Thank you very much. God bless you.
I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??
Antaiwan
If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.
I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).
I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.
I took a look at the entire chapter of Samuel to see what I could out of it. I personally don't see it as anything contradicting to the fact that when you are dead, you're dead. I can't say for certain what saul saw, but I want to lean on the idea that He was seeing a vision of sorts. That it wasn't LITERALLY happening. A vision that God caused him to have, though we do see a conversation between saul and the dead samual, I do believe it was just a vision he was having when he visited this woman.
As far as Isaiah is concerned; I really can't see AT ALL what your confusion is or how this contradicts what is said in Psalms6:5.
Hell = Hades = The unseen, the unpercievable = The grave. Everyone goes to "hell" one day or another.
Lastly, with Job, again.. not really sure where the confusion lies. Job is talking about a FUTURE time, notice he uses the words "SHALL (meaning future) and "LATTER DAYS" (meaning future.)
Thats all I have for now... Just think carefully, remember God doesn't contradict Himself and neither do His Words.
Hope this helps!
God bless,
Alex
I apologize, Alex.
My confusion is due to that site I posted. Since I cannot post the link to the site, I will write a quotation.
Both the Old and New Testaments give clear indication that there is,
indeed, a life after death.
1. Many Old Testament scriptures make reference to a life after death.
Job 19:25-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand
at the latter day upon the earth; and though after my skin worms destroy this
body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine
eyes shall behold, and not another..."
Psalms 16:9, 10 "... my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave
my soul in hell..."
Isaiah 5:14, 15 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth
without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that
rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the
mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."
Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming;
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..."
B. The reason there is no knowledge, wisdom, worship, or praise in
the grave (see Psalms 6:5; 88:10-12; 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes
9:5, 10; Isaiah 38:18 – scriptures used by promoters of the
"soul-sleep" doctrine) is that the intelligence of man is not in the
body, which, in the grave returns to dust (Ecclesiastes 3:20) – but
in the spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11), which returns to God (Ecclesiastes
3:21; 12:7).
I don't believe what she had written; I feel that she had forced her theology on the text.
Forgive me for being confused.
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Hi Ian,
This thing about death and the grave is confusing when you try to rectify it with all of the teaching out there that the body dies, but the spirit lives on.
Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer liveth...
This is true Christ is now "a High Priest, who has sat down on the right of the throne of the Majesty in Heaven" (Heb. 8:1).
v. 25 ...and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth;
This is true as it says in Zec 14:1 "Behold, the day of Jehovah comes..." v. 4 "And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives." This has not happen yet, it "comes." His return is what will bring about the end of this age and the beginning of His rule on earth.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and shall do judgment and justice in the earth.
Job 19:26 and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
This is true Job died, but he believed there would be a resurrection of the dead, when his 'Redeemer" returns and he will once again be flesh and blood.
v. 27 whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another..."
Yes when God resurrects people they will have their human spirit (that has been in safe keeping with God, Ecc 12:7) returned to them. As Job also knew we would have our memory and same personality and character that we had before returned to us.
Psalms 16:9 "... my flesh also shall rest in hope.
v. 10 For You wilt not leave my soul in hell..."
Christ spoke of death as sleep, so it is like the body is at rest until the resurrection. Concordant Version has a better translation of verse 10.
Psalms 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen...
Our only hope is for resurrection and Job says that is what he thought/hoped for before died, that God would not leave him dead in the grave.
Isaiah 5:14, 15 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."
Yes hell/hades/unseen/grave is enlarging, there is more going to the grave every day. It is quite humbling to know that you are going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop that. But I guess a lot (the great majority) of people don't believe that at all. They think that just the body dies, but the spirit lives on some place else and they have all these verses about 'hell' to prove it... "strong delusion" (2Thes 2:11). The spirit goes back to God to keep until resurrection.
Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is moved for Thee to meet Thee at Thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for Thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..."
This verse speaks of Christ return and the resurrection of the dead spoken of in Rev. 20.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it...
v, 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell (hades/unseen/grave) delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
When you come to understand the basics of the truth then all of the Scriptures fit together nicely in what they teach.
Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth... (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat
Once you get it then it is easy to get it ?
Charles O
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Ian...I had a million pieces and bits of the Church of Babylon floating around my head and I kept reading and reading then all of a sudden it all fell in place. This will happen to you.
One word of advice that i found unbelievably helpful is when some (like Kat) refers you to one of Ray's articles, be SURE to read it because it keeps the moderators from having to re-write what has already been written.
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Ian...I had a million pieces and bits of the Church of Babylon floating around my head and I kept reading and reading then all of a sudden it all fell in place. This will happen to you.
One word of advice that i found unbelievably helpful is when some (like Kat) refers you to one of Ray's articles, be SURE to read it because it keeps the moderators from having to re-write what has already been written.
I hope that happens to me as well...
I have read almost every single article Ray has written...especially the ones regarding Sheol. In fact, while reading Part B tonight, I found another verse that stumped me.
"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [Heb: sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword" (Ezek. 32:21)."
Thank you all again. Sorry for being foolish.
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Ian, keep on asking questions, now ask within, because you need no one to teach you what you already know. When you ask the right questions, the answers will be there waiting for you to learn them.
Peace Love Bro,
George.
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Hi Ian,
Here is an email that should help with the verse in Ezekial and below that is from the Lake of Fire series 'Sheol Translated Hell,' that should give you help with other places hell is mentioned.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3121.0.html ---------
Some things can be "explained," but may not be able to be "proved." I can tell you that all of these Scriptures are in "figurative" rather than "literal" language, but that does not means that you will believe me, anymore than when I showed "plucking out one's eye or cutting of one's hand" in accordance with Christ's admonition concerning offensive sins, was believed by those who read it. I received comments that these admonitions were indeed LITERAL, even though they conceded that we are not to LITERALLY pluck out our physical eyes, etc.
How, for example does "pomp" go to the grave (or sheol)? It is, of course, FIGURATIVE. If these verses in figurative language are literal, then we must concede that such verses as Gen. 4:10 are literal: "...the VOICE of your brother's BLOOD cries unto Me from the ground." Someone might actually claim that blood is immortal, and although spilled on the ground, and completely dried up, nonetheless, is still alive and......AND POSSESSES VOCAL CORDS AND CAN SPEAK!!
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html -----------------------------
In all the "Torah"—the Law, that is all the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, the word "hell" appears but once in the King James Bible. Here it is:
1. "For a fire is kindled in mine anger and shall burn unto the lowest hell [Heb: sheol], and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (Deut. 32:22).
Well, at last. There it is, "fire" is found with the word sheol, so surely now we have found Scriptural proof that sheol sometimes does mean the Christian "hell of eternal torture in fire," right? WRONG! This verse says nothing of burning dead people in sheol with fire.
The whole chapter is a "Song of Moses" (See verse 1). God prophesies through Moses’ Song, His anger over Israel’s lack of faith and the fact that they will turn to other gods, and for this God will punish them. He will not, however, torture them in an eternal fire of a Christian hell. Here is what God will do to them:
"For the Lord shall judge His people… I KILL, and I make ALIVE: I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand" (Deut. 32:36a & 39).
Notice that according to God Himself, the only way that someone He "kills" can ever live again is if God also "makes alive" again. Do Christians believe that dead people must be made alive again? No, of course not. They don’t believe that dead people are even dead, so why would God ever have to "make alive" again? It is not Scientifically, Physiologically, or Scripturally possible to physically DIE and yet be alive.
v
2. The sorrows of hell [Heb: sheol] compassed [surrounded] me about: the snares of death prevented [confronted] me" (II Sam. 22:6).
Does anyone believe that David just narrowly escaped the tortures of an eternal hell of pain in literal fire? No? I don’t either. But I can clearly see how he felt death and the grave closing in on him when his enemies were out to kill him.
3. It [the wisdom and secrets of God] is as high as heaven; what can you do? Deeper than hell [Heb: sheol] ; what can you know" (Job 11:08).
This is poetic language and has nothing to do with a place of torture in fire.
4. Hell [Heb: sheol] is naked before him, and destruction has no covering" (Job 26:6).
5. The wicked shall be turned [Heb: shub] into hell [Heb: sheol], and all the nations that forget God" (Psalm 9:17).
I heard this verse quoted on TV just this past Sunday. Boy oh boy this one seems pretty hard to side step, isn’t it? "The wicked shall be turned into hell." Well, maybe not. The translators have tried to do their tricky little deceitfulness once more. You see, the word translated "turned" is the Hebrew word shub and it means "to RETURN," (not, "turn" or "turned"), but REturn or REturned. In fact this word is translated "return" or "returned" almost 100% of the approximately 450 times it is used. Notice how other versions correct this same verse:
"The lawless shall RETURN [Heb: shub] to hades, All nations forgetful of God" (Psalm 9:17, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible).
"The nations shall be TURNED BACK unto sheol, All nations that are forgetful of God" (Psalm 9:17, The New American Bible).
"The wicked do TURN BACK to sheol, All nations forgetting God" (Psalm 9:17, Young’s Literal Translation).
"The wicked shall RETURN [Heb: shub] to the unseen, all nations forgetful of God" (Psalm 9:17 Concordant Literal Old Testament).
Actually "return" is a better translation than "turn back," but at least we can see that other translators see and use the proper meaning of shub, which of course, The King James did not.
The Bible likens death to a "Return." The soul RETURNS to sheol/hades—the UNSEEN. The spirit RETURNS to God who gave it. And the body RETURNS to the dust of the ground from whence it came. And so likewise, the wicked nations will be RETURNED to sheol—the grave, sheol, the unseen, DEATH.
If "sheol" is a Christian hell of torture in fire, then they would also have to conclude that these nations also CAME FROM an eternity of suffering in fire, and they are not RETURNING to that same place. Anyone see a problem with such unscriptural nonsense?
6. "For you will not leave my soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption" (Psalm 16:10).
Although this is a prophecy concerning the Lord, it is nonetheless, the words of David concerning himself and his own salvation from sheol. Notice that David concedes that he (his soul, the conscious, sentient self) will die and go to sheol. But David’s prayer is that God, "will not LEAVE my soul in sheol." Everyone’s soul goes to sheol at death—both the sinners and the saints.
7. "The sorrows of hell [Heb: sheol] compassed me about: the snares of death prevented [confronted] me" (Psalm 18:5).
David is not in sheol, but rather is sorrowful in just contemplating death.
8. "Let DEATH seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell [Heb: sheol]: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them" (Psalm 55:15).
Notice that that one must be "dead" in order to go to sheol.
9. "For great is Thy mercy toward me: and you have delivered my soul from the lowest [depth of] hell [Heb: sheol]" (Psalm 86:13).
10. "The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell [Hb: sheol] got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow" (Ps. 116:3).
11. "If I ascend up into heaven, You are there: if I make my bed in hell [Heb: sheol], behold, You are there" (Psalm 139:08).
12. "Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell [Heb: sheol]" (Prov. 5:5).
Seems pretty clear that feet and steps are one, and they go to one place—death and hell [sheol] are all one.
13. "Her house is the way to hell [Heb: sheol], going down to the chambers of death" (Prov. 7:27).
Once more, her house with its chambers, go down to hell/sheol and death.
14. "But he knows not that the DEAD are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell [Heb: sheol]" (Prov. 9:18).
Hell/sheol contains DEAD PEOPLE, not living souls!
15. "Hell [Heb: sheol] and destruction are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?" (Prov. 15:11).
16. "The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart [keep away] from hell [Heb: sheol] beneath" (Prov. 15:24).
17. "You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from hell [Heb: sheol]" (Prov. 23:14).
18. Hell [Heb: sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied" (Prov. 27:20).
19. "Therefore hell [Heb: sheol] has enlarged herself, and opened her mouth with out measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoices, shall descend into it" (Isa. 5:14).
20. Hell [Heb: sheol] from beneath is moved for you to meet you at the coming; it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations" (Isa. 14:9).
21. "Yet you shall be brought down to hell [Heb: sheol] to the sides of the pit" (Isa. 14:15).
22. "Because you have said, We have made a covenant with DEATH, and with hell [Heb: sheol] are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves" (Isa. 28:15).
23. "And your covenant with DEATH shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell [Heb: sheol] shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it" (Isa. 28:18).
Notice in both verses 15 and 18 of Isa. 28 that "death and hell" keep company together. Another major proof that those in sheol are DEAD, not tortured in fire. Sheol is associated with DEATH, not life.
24. "And you went to the king with ointment, and did increase your perfumes, and did send your messengers far off, and did debase yourself even unto hell [Heb: sheol]" (Isa. 57:9).
25. "I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall; when I cast him down to hell [Heb: sheol] with them that descend into the pit and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth" (Ezek. 31:16).
26. "They also went down into hell [Heb: sheol] with him unto them that be slain with the sword: and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen" (Ezek. 31:17).
27. "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [Heb: sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword" (Ezek. 32:21).
28. "And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell [Heb: sheol] with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, through they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living" (Ezk. 32:27).
29. "Though they dig into hell [Heb: sheol], thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down" (Amos 9:2).
30. "And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and He heard me; out of the BELLY of hell [Heb: sheol] cried I, and You heard my voice" (Jonah 2:2).
Imagine that! The belly of a FISH is also the "belly of hell." But for sure there was no literal fire inside that fish torturing Jonah.
31. "Yea also, because he transgresses by wine, he is a proud man, neither keeps at home, who enlarges his desire as hell [Heb: sheol] , and is as DEATH, and cannot be satisfied, but gathers unto him all nations, and heaps unto him all people" (Hab. 2:5).
Again we see death and hell keeping company. There is NO CONSCIOUSNESS in sheol / hades / grave / death. Jonah only figuratively (symbolically) cried out from "the belly of hell/sheol." Jonah was not literally in sheol, as he had not died, although he was very close to it. David in the same way, cried out in his agony as though he had already been consumed with death, although he had not.
We have now quoted every Scripture from the Hebrew Old Testament which contains the word sheol. 3 times as "pit," 31 times "grave," and 31 times "hell." Not once did we read of "PUNISHMENT," "TORTURE IN FIRE," or a place of "EVERLASTING" anything. We have clearly seen that both the righteous and the unrighteous go to this same condition and place called sheol. It is spoken of literally, figuratively, symbolically, and poetically.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ian, keep on asking questions, now ask within, because you need no one to teach you what you already know. When you ask the right questions, the answers will be there waiting for you to learn them.
Peace Love Bro,
George.
George,
What are the right questions as opposed to the wrong questions that we should be asking within ourselves? To rely on ones self for Spiritual enlightenment is giving unto the doctrines of men. Jesus,the One true teacher, had to teach His apostles Gods Truth because they could not understand otherwise.
Without teachers of the Word of God where would any one that has been given the Spirit of Truth have received such understanding? We are only one part of a body and that body needs all of the sum of its parts to function as a whole.We need the Spirit to send teachers in order to receive His message of Truth. Scripture certainly verifies that condition.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
. 1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
I believe we all at some point in our walk have come to realize the importance of the following verse.
Act 8:27 And he [Philip] arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
When one looks within ones self for the Truth of the Spirit, you better be ready to try the spirits that are lurking about...
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Peace...Mark
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Most Churches around the world that I know of, preach that when a believer or an unbeliever die they instantly go to their ETERNAL destination.
But as Ray has shown time and time again, this belief flies in the face of sound doctrine.
They also aren't really looking for, and watching for Jesus to return, seeing as how that they will be with him in an instant when they die.
Jesus was pretty clear when he explained to his disciples in John 14:1-4
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Clearly the SECOND coming, that Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Joel
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Speaking of hell, did you ever hear a preacher say that Jesus had the final say. When Jesus hung on the cross he looked at his accusers and tormentors and said "Father FORGIVE them for they know not what they do." But in the back of Jesus's mind He was thinking "Yeah, you got me now, BUT someday I will get you back by torturing you for ever and ever and ever and ever in hell!
So there!!!!
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Actually Jews don't believe in an eternal hell. They believe in temporary hell, a spiritual adjustment place. for a time up to 12 months max. Don't believe me? Look it up. Christianity believes in an eternal hell. It's crazy what they believe. It's Sad how they keep the people from knowing the true love of God.