bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on December 25, 2008, 03:42:21 AM
-
I went to church with my girlfriend and her family. It was an interesting experience. What shocked me the most is that when i asked for a bible, because i wanted to read the bible because i havn't for a very long time now. They told me they didn't have any... i was absolutely shocked. A church without bibles for its members... Well im not a member, but i was certainly attending for the christmas ceremony [because it ment alot to my gf's family.]
So i bring this up, because i was wondering, doesn't anyone else find this a bit shocking? I mean.. i knew people didn't know the Truth, but now i'm starting to see why. The church's wont even keep bibles in the pews during mass or anything. Just hymnal books, no wonder its so easy to be indoctrinated.
Infact my girlfriends brother stated with frustration after i expressed my shock that; "They just read the story to us." He said "i don't know how they do it at your church but thats how they do it here." I told Him i didn't go to "church" and asked "wouldn't you like to read it for yourself?" To which he replied much the same as his first.
Boy! To me this his like a school without books! A science class without the instruments! Does anyone else think as i do about this?
Curiouse on your thoughts.
God bless,
Alex
-
Alex, The last two churches I went to people carried there Bibles. Some did and some didn't. But, the preacher would say open your Bibles to scriptures he was preaching. I think most in churches think the Pastors know what they are talking about. I have been to the Catholic Churches and I never understood when they talked Latin how most of them who did not know Latin even knew what they were talking about. Course that has been many years ago for me since I am getting up there in years.
I guess if you blindly trust you don't need a Bible. Course, I have never been one to trust too much. I would call not reading your Bible lazy among other things. It is kind of like listening to a friend just quiz you on what he thought a test might be about. I myself always wanted to read so I would know and pass the test. I would not want to put my test scores onto another persons knowledge. Yes, I think it is crazy if they don't have Bibles in the place. But, even more crazy to take there word for it and not test the spirits yourself.
In His Love,
Marlene
-
Hi A;ex,
Why are you shocked?
Those who call themselves by his name have no use for His word other than to use it to wrap around their beastly doctrines to make idols out of them!
-
I didn't go today, I didn't go yesterday and chances are, I aint gonna go tommorrow.
Unless they give me money.
-
Of course it is shocking--to us who know the truth. "They" think nothing of it. I used to bring my Bible to church so I could read and NOT listen to the teaching. Martin Luther first brought the idea of "solo scriptura" to the people. The Word only. Catholics had traditions, other books, and oh yea, the bible too. I think it is very nice of you to attend w/ your girlfriend and her family. Now you can really see what is going on in Babylon.
Have a great new year Alex!!
-
Here in Britain most Churches only keep prayer and service books, the reason is that those books are of no value other than for the services. Churches in the past that did keep Bibles ended up having them all stolen, and so they no longer keep them but encourage worshippers to bring them along.
My local cathedral has a shop that sells numerous English versions for none profit.
-
Sorry to be the grinch but the reason we are here is because we have been pulled from there.
Hope to get your attention; why do we keep going back to where we have been dragged from.
Revelation of John 14:8:
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she
made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation of John 18:2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become
the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Revelation of John 18:4:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers
of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
george. :( :'(
-
Sorry to be the grinch but the reason we are here is because we have been pulled from there.
Hope to get your attention; why do we keep going back to where we have been dragged from.
Revelation of John 14:8:
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she
made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation of John 18:2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become
the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Revelation of John 18:4:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers
of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
george. :( :'(
Well George, I see it a little differently. My wife and children love to go to church (Baptist) and are all caught up in it. I go with them as we are family, and as such, we try and do things together. I print off a few of Ray's papers and read them during the service. It is great reading time! So although I am physically in church I do not partake of her. I speak with my family now and then about the things that I have learned but I do not force it on them. I hope those little seeds will grow within them. Coming to the truth was a process for me and I realize that it will be for them as well. So spiritually I am out of her and hope to rescue my family from her too. Hopefully, the day will come where we will just stay home and study as a family. So we cannot just think of ourselves all the time but our loved ones as well. So let's not be too harsh on the church goers as they may also have reasons valid to them to still attend. Plus we don't know where they are in their spiritual development/learning. But we do know God will pull us out at His appointed time.
Wes
P.S. They don't have Bibles in the pews but do have a few spares for those who may request one.
-
Hi Wes,
My point is not to those that are still lost but those who now understand; or maybe
The Scriptures do not mean what i think they mean?. They have not been pulled out;
we however have acknowledged that we have been pulled or dragged out. As one
called and professing to understand the Scriptures in a new and much clearer way, it
is incumbent on us to be the Light without going back to our old comfort zone. Love is
not a conditional thing in its truest form, we must love all humanity regardless but we
were not taken out of Babylon physically or Spiritually just for the moment.
When God Calls one out the beginning of separation from the world starts, so if that
first step was coming out of Babylon Spiritually why go back? This is a very difficult
walk and many hard decisions must be made daily until we learn to Really Love.
Here is an excerpt from: The Topic Love.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.msg27958.html#msg27958
So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love. A love that is undeserved, they’re not reciprocating, ok. Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love. Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said, “Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) Now that’s agape love.
Father these people are blind and deceived, oh they’re fools, and they’re hypocrites, blind fools as they called the Pharisees in Matt 23, none the less. Then as it was such a strong condemnation, on the one hand, on the other hand, He says Father forgive them. Is this a contradiction? No, it’s not. It’s the way God is and we need to be like God, ok.
We can love our neighbor, with a agape love, we don’t need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies. If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.
But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area. God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies.
First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies. Well, where did they hear that of old? About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody. That was King David, not God. But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said. Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.
But Christ said, but I say unto you, love your enemies - agapao your enemies. Can you love your enemies and hate them at the same time? Well, you say no you can’t, that’s a contradiction. Well, let’s think about that for a second. Could God hate Esau and love him a the same time? Not only could He, the Bible tells us that, and it shows that He did. He shows more favor to Jacob then He did for Esau, and yet you can find some pretty strong promises and blessings (even though He said I hate Esau), you can find blessings on Esau in the Bible I can show you them, ok.
God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world. Why?, because I agapao them.
God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality. I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao. Maybe we need to learn to do that too. If we’re going to be like God, right.
george. :( :)
-
When God Calls one out the beginning of separation from the world starts, so if that
first step was coming out of Babylon Spiritually why go back? This is a very difficult
walk and many hard decisions must be made daily until we learn to Really Love.
I am out of "Babylon Spiritually" and do not partake of her just as we are instructed to do in the scriptures. The scriptures are SPIRITUAL not physical and I am spiritually out. Yet I still physically attend for the reasons I listed above. Church is far from a comfort zone for me. However, physically we still have to live in this world. It truly is a difficult walk. Since learning the truth I have come to 'Really Love' my family more than I ever have in the past.
-
I do understand your feelings and why you do it. However we do need to be aware
that being a Light; others are seeing what we do and concluding that if He or She
does it; it must be ok. I too am married for over 35 years now, my wife is still in Babylon
although not as firmly as before. We used to do all the church attending together, now
for a wedding or funeral i would still attend a service with her or a friend, certainly not
for any other purpose.
This is nothing personal just one Brother talking to the rest of the family. Respectfully we
can agree to disagree on this topic until i can understand better. We are all still carnal even
as The Spirit Grows in us so we must trust the Scriptures:
Philippians 1:6:
Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform
it until the day of Jesus Christ:
george. :)
Btw; This is the main part of the excerpt that i was referring to.
We can love our neighbor, with a agape love, we don’t need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies. If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.
-
Respectfully we can agree to disagree on this topic until i can understand better.
Yes we can.
-
As nice as it is to have the scriptures, having them in a building doesn't change anything. Even though I get what Alex is saying. The early church didn't have chapter and verse and yet we do and are overloaded with lies, myths and tradition etc.
-
Fester, George
We can all attest to the difficulty of putting our hands to the plow and not looking back or forsaking all and following Christ.
We are all striving towards the crown and as Father through His spirit strengthens us we grow in faith and works.
Father looks at our hearts and its intention but the world looks on the outward man. We are to be to the world Jesus Christ and this is our cross.
Charrie :-*
-
Hi Alex
When my husband and I were in Babylon as a leaders, we were told by our "superiors" that Bibles were not going to be permitted in "leadership" meetings. It aggravated the "leadership" that we were constantly referring and quoting and turning to the Scriptures as our authority. Babylon despises the Word of God and this includes not just the leaders but the submissive followers too who have not yet been dragged out and neither have they heard the Word of God calling His People to come out.
I use red ink to emphasise the teaching from "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!" Quote:
Who were the Scribes and Pharisees?
The Pharisees were not the priests, but rather people from all walks of life who were very pious and strict keepers of the Law of Moses.
Arc
-
Respectfully we can agree to disagree on this topic until i can understand better.
Yes we can.
Matt. 10:34-39 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
1 Thess 5:21-23 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim 3:12-13 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Fester, I know it is difficult (as I have a wife and 2 girls who attend church weekly), but we cannot 'agree to disagree' with scriptures. George was not proving his personal opinion, he was only commenting on what the scriptures tell us.
You stated that we should think of our loved ones as well...what about Christ? Is He not a 'loved one'?
Perhaps you could live by example by staying home and continue to worship in spirit & truth...then eventually, your family will come TO YOU and wonder about your behavior. Just a suggestion, and not trying to change your life overnight, but pointing to the spiritual truth of the matter.
Hope this helps,
Marques
-
Fester, I know it is difficult (as I have a wife and 2 girls who attend church weekly), but we cannot 'agree to disagree' with scriptures. George was not proving his personal opinion, he was only commenting on what the scriptures tell us.
You stated that we should think of our loved ones as well...what about Christ? Is He not a 'loved one'?
Perhaps you could live by example by staying home and continue to worship in spirit & truth...then eventually, your family will come TO YOU and wonder about your behavior. Just a suggestion, and not trying to change your life overnight, but pointing to the spiritual truth of the matter.
Yes George was providing his opinion based on his interpretation and personal applications of the scriptures. Just as you have too. George and I agree to disagree on the application of these scriptures to our lives and not on the scriptures themselves. Neither of us disagree with the scriptures. I interpret all the scriptures he lists and the ones you list in a spiritual manner. Perhaps you can live your life by the 'physical' and continue to stay home and I will live mine by 'spiritual' interpretations of the scriptures in the manner God is leading me. Just a suggestion, and you will never change my life, only God and His spiritual truths will.
Your questions on the love of Christ are demeaning and not worthy of a reply.
-
I ran into a guy the other day at the store who knows me from a church I visited in the past. He told me I was a "slacker" because I don't go to church anymore. It don't matter where you go, on here or anywhere, your gonna catch crap from people. We are the church but there is no such thing as a peaceful and loving assembly. Humans are more interested in being right and pushing their agenda than living right and focusing on self. So sad....we are.
-
Humans are more interested in being right and pushing their agenda than living right and focusing on self. So sad....we are.
I concur.
-
Yes George was providing his opinion based on his interpretation and personal applications of the scriptures. Just as you have too. George and I agree to disagree on the application of these scriptures to our lives and not on the scriptures themselves. Neither of us disagree with the scriptures. I interpret all the scriptures he lists and the ones you list in a spiritual manner. Perhaps you can live your life by the 'physical' and continue to stay home and I will live mine by 'spiritual' interpretations of the scriptures in the manner God is leading me. Just a suggestion, and you will never change my life, only God and His spiritual truths will.
Your questions on the love of Christ are demeaning and not worthy of a reply.
Fester,
I wasn't trying to be demeaning...I was only responding to your comment where you stated 'we cannot just think of ourselves all the time'.
Matt. 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Was Christ telling this disciple to only think of himself? Placing the will of the Father above loved ones is an admirable quality...not a selfish one. Could this disciple obeyed this commandment by physically going to the bury his father but spiritually having his heart elsewhere? Was Christ telling us to come out of Babylon in our heart but we could stay physically? Are there any commandments that one could obey spiritually and not physically?
I am not interested in 'being right' or pushing an agenda...it is only to help all with understanding the scriptures and what our Lord commands. The same way many members help me and others with their comments and discussions. Hope this helps with whoever is seeking understanding...and those who are not seeking, I guess it is of no benefit for them.
Marques
-
Respectfully we can agree to disagree on this topic until i can understand better.
Yes we can.
Matt. 10:34-39 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
1 Thess 5:21-23 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim 3:12-13 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Fester, I know it is difficult (as I have a wife and 2 girls who attend church weekly), but we cannot 'agree to disagree' with scriptures. George was not proving his personal opinion, he was only commenting on what the scriptures tell us.
You stated that we should think of our loved ones as well...what about Christ? Is He not a 'loved one'?
Perhaps you could live by example by staying home and continue to worship in spirit & truth...then eventually, your family will come TO YOU and wonder about your behavior. Just a suggestion, and not trying to change your life overnight, but pointing to the spiritual truth of the matter.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Yes, we indeed are a spiritual people. We discontinue all outward appearance of working to be saved, Father expects love from the heart, obedience from the heart (intentions).However, our spiritual works are physical. All the scriptural quotes above from Marques can only occur in the physical. Having the members of our own household against us is physical, abstaining from all appearances of evil is physical, suffering from persecution is physical.
Making the very, very difficult decision to Love Jesus more than daughter, sister, brother is physically, mentally hard. But if you think about it, our Big Brother's sacrifice was a physical act of love. He could have stayed in an extremely comfortable place but instead CHOOSE to take the difficult road of obedience to the Father.
Again, we can all attest to the difficulty of the physical obedience to the Father, let alone the spiritual difficulty, but Light cannot remain in darkness and shine and salt without flavor cannot perserve.
I have a family, too. But, if I really love them, which I do, before I ever open my mouth they will have to see my works. And, I love them so, so very much, BUT I LOVE FATHER MOREI say this with tears running down my face at this very moment, but this is the cross we must all bear.
Yes George was providing his opinion based on his interpretation and personal applications of the scriptures. Just as you have too. George and I agree to disagree on the application of these scriptures to our lives and not on the scriptures themselves. Neither of us disagree with the scriptures. I interpret all the scriptures he lists and the ones you list in a spiritual manner. Perhaps you can live your life by the 'physical' and continue to stay home and I will live mine by 'spiritual' interpretations of the scriptures in the manner God is leading me. Just a suggestion, and you will never change my life, only God and His spiritual truths will.
Your questions on the love of Christ are demeaning and not worthy of a reply.
Fester,
I wasn't trying to be demeaning...I was only responding to your comment where you stated 'we cannot just think of ourselves all the time'.
Matt. 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Was Christ telling this disciple to only think of himself? Placing the will of the Father above loved ones is an admirable quality...not a selfish one. Could this disciple obeyed this commandment by physically going to the bury his father but spiritually having his heart elsewhere? Was Christ telling us to come out of Babylon in our heart but we could stay physically? Are there any commandments that one could obey spiritually and not physically?
I am not interested in 'being right' or pushing an agenda...it is only to help all with understanding the scriptures and what our Lord commands. The same way many members help me and others with their comments and discussions. Hope this helps with whoever is seeking understanding...and those who are not seeking, I guess it is of no benefit for them.
Marques
Exactly, Marques, everyone of us are doing our best to help and edify one another. This walk is difficult enough and the commandment to love one another, to live in peace and unity should be applied even here.
We love you and may Father give us ALL the strength to carry our crosses. They are heavy, heavy with tears.
Charrie :-*
-
Matt. 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Was Christ telling this disciple to only think of himself? Placing the will of the Father above loved ones is an admirable quality...not a selfish one. Could this disciple obeyed this commandment by physically going to the bury his father but spiritually having his heart elsewhere? Was Christ telling us to come out of Babylon in our heart but we could stay physically? Are there any commandments that one could obey spiritually and not physically?
Thanks for the scripture lesson on spiritual truths applied to the physical (flesh).
Yes, we indeed are a spiritual people. We discontinue all outward appearance of working to be saved, Father expects love from the heart, obedience from the heart (intentions).However, our spiritual works are physical. All the scriptural quotes above from Marques can only occur in the physical. Having the members of our own household against us is physical, abstaining from all appearances of evil is physical, suffering from persecution is physical.
(bold emphasis mine)
Thanks for the lesson that some scriptures can only occur in the physical (flesh).
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63
I pray everyday for God to open my eyes to more of His spiritual truths in the scriptures.
I have said all that I have to say on this topic.
I am finished replying in this thread.
May God bless us all.
-
May Father open ALL our eyes. I prey HE starts with ME FIRST.
Charrie :-*
-
I went to church with my girlfriend and her family. It was an interesting experience. What shocked me the most is that when i asked for a bible, because i wanted to read the bible because i havn't for a very long time now. They told me they didn't have any... i was absolutely shocked. A church without bibles for its members... Well im not a member, but i was certainly attending for the christmas ceremony [because it ment alot to my gf's family.]
So i bring this up, because i was wondering, doesn't anyone else find this a bit shocking? I mean.. i knew people didn't know the Truth, but now i'm starting to see why. The church's wont even keep bibles in the pews during mass or anything. Just hymnal books, no wonder its so easy to be indoctrinated.
Infact my girlfriends brother stated with frustration after i expressed my shock that; "They just read the story to us." He said "i don't know how they do it at your church but thats how they do it here." I told Him i didn't go to "church" and asked "wouldn't you like to read it for yourself?" To which he replied much the same as his first.
Boy! To me this his like a school without books! A science class without the instruments! Does anyone else think as i do about this?
Curiouse on your thoughts.
God bless,
Alex
Funny story:
My mom wanted me to go with her to Church on Christmas Eve, and I said what for? She got silent cause she knows the "Truth" as I've shared it with her and she believes, yet still wants to hold on to her 'idol of the heart' Babylonian-Style Church..
Then my brother-in-law said he wanted to go, and said that he was sad that it's Christmas and 'nobody knows what Christmas is about these days',
to which I replied, 'What is Christmas about, Mike?'
and of course he replied 'Jesus' Birthday'.
And I said.. "Oh, Really?"
Then he hesitated and said to me, 'isn't it?'
To which I replied, 'Jesus was born around September. Roman Catholics made Christmas Jesus' Birthday. If you really want a Christmas sermon, I'll give you one!"
But my sister got upset, and said 'Mom, Chris is ruining my Christmas!" Lol we all started laughing...
Fun times at the 'Adams Residence'...
Over & Out,
Daywalker.
-
Thank You, Daywalker
:D :D :D
Charrie :-*
-
I've known many beautiful souls who love God and a lot of them were in churches. I am finding this conversation difficult as the arrogance that we would judge where a soul is at with the Lord is totally out of line as though we were the only ones who have the truth (Christ) I think this is a big mistake, this attitude of superiorority I am finding here. I came here with the love of God and never will I condemn another in their search for God. People grow by the grace of God and who are we to say they are all lost? I love sinners as well as saints and if I can contribute ANYTHING of worth to their spiritual state, Lord lead me, even if it is into Babylon as you all here use this expression.
-
Hi Judith,
Ray has written much on this very subject, no one is condemning the church goers we
all were exactly like them before God calls or drags us out. But the practices that the
Church engages in is in fact babylonish in every possible way.
george. :)
-
George, thank you for the reply. I understand where you are coming from but I am a human being and we were meant to dwell together and sometimes I want the physical presence of other humans. I love to worship God with the Pentacostals, receive Holy Communion with the Catholics, go across the river to the black church and hear a fiery sermon and have picnics with the Methodists. I don't argue scripture, if husbands can be won without a word then why can't they? I thought , what's that verse or two about how you can give all you have but have not Charity, you have nothing. My experience with God has been merciful and loving, I was not called to be a preacher. I was saved and laid out with a consuming fire that lasted for days, I cannot do anything but love and I do it and so much more for 30+ years and have suffered greatly and still do, but I stay open to the Holy Spirit and will not go back to nit-picking others and their churches. I am a bit hot here but I am very passionate and when God's main purpose is to love(for me anyway) and I feel that is challenged I will try to call the truth out as I see it. I am also very forgiving and I hold no anger towards the others but the truth is my top priority. God loves all His children even the mistaken and especially the lost and I trust Him with His people. Forgive me if I have been too harsh towards everyone, this is the first time here anything has bothered me. I love reading Ray's writings and haven't found one thing to upset me but I can sniff out an attitude pretty quick and it was getting petty.
-
Judith, there may be people online here that seem to be harsh or not charitable (not so from my experience). In some cases abrupt yes, hasty, yes, tempermental yes unloving; not that i can discern. It does get pretty lonely sometimes but that is mostly because God's Calling is not as easy as we would like to think. We are told to chose this day whom we will serve:
Joshua 24:15:
And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
george. ???
-
o.k. George you're on. What's that bible verse got to do with what I said and in practical situations please as I am most practical. Did you think I meant I loved the people more than God? Are we not to gather ourselves together (in person) Am I to be relegated to this room whereas my blind husband and blind brother-in-law have the rest of the house. Am I to stay away from my heathen son? Am I not to teach a mental health class to a bunch of disturbed people? Where do you suggest I go for companionship at the ripe old age of 66? Should I go and relax alone ? I do not understand. I am being very facetious but where exactly am I going wrong here? Sincerely and truthfully, Judy
-
Judith,
I think no such thing, just pointing out the stark difference between what we want to do versus what we are called to do. Separation is a hard thing when we love our neighbor, but separate we must in if we would be of any use in accomplishing the very goal you want. I am 56 and have been around long enough to be stubborn about anything disagreeable to me but; i also have learned that the less i try to do for the kingdom; the more i get done and the converse is also true for me. Here are a few Scriptures and comments from Ray to help us out.
excerpt from: http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html
NOT MANY WISE ARE CALLED
Maybe if you or I created the human race, we would have done it that way. But we didn’t; God did; and He didn’t do it our way. God never intended for everyone to understand His Word or His Plan except for the few that He calls in every generation. He is not even trying to save the whole world in this lifetime or even in this age. The prophet Habakkuk tells us this,
"For the earth shall be FILLLED with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab. 2:14).
Oh it "shall" shall it? WHY NOT NOW? Wouldn’t it be better NOW if the earth were FILLLED with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord? Why later? Because it is God’s way. Let me quote Hab. 2:3 from the Revised Standard Version:
"For there is still a vision for the APPOINTED TIME; it speaks of THE END, and does not lie., If it seems to tarry, wait for it, it will surely come, IT WILL NOT DELAY."
God’s ways take time and He does everything according to His schedule, trust me, EVERYTHING IS RIGHT ON SCHEDULE.
Why God hasn’t even called whole categories of people during the past two thousand years:
"For you see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, ARE CALLED" (I Cor. 1:26).
And of those called, only a "few are chosen." And those few are admonished to search, and hunt, and dig for the truth. None of this is an accident nor is it God’s plan gone amuck. God’s plan is on schedule to the millionth of a millisecond. God knows how many hairs were lost on your head today because He had already planned how many you would lose, a long time ago.
Excerpt from winning souls: http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN
"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:
george. :)
-
I never thought in a million years I could save anybody. But I still don't see why I have to stay away from other believers.
-
I don't get that one verse--"it PLEASED God by by their preaching ??? And that other verse in Habbukk where he said the vision was far off---That's a verse the Lord gave to me and I never to this day even knew what the vision was, I just thought it was of Him because He showed me his Majesty. And I never knew what I was supposed to do. I had to look up the word "justified" because it came to me in the Spirit so strong and I figured it was the lord telling me I was justified even though I didn't know what it was. It has been a long haul. I know only God can save. And when I do anything good all people say is "how good Judy is" and I don't want that, I want God to be glorified not me but they think i am a great person and that is not my intent. I do no good really as far as God goes.And I was the weakest and just about the dumbest.
-
Few excerpts from email to Ray regarding 'church':
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7233.0.html
Dear Robert: Unless you are interested in the Truths of God, I don't think you should bother to read the material on my site. It is straight from the Scriptures, and for that reason, it is most offensive to most Christians.
There is no "local church." I do not belong to any local church or institutionalized denomination of men. No such group would ever tolerate anyone teaching the Truths of God. I am not here to parrot the "damnable heresies" (I Pet. 2:1) of some "local church."
My site is not for religious hobbyists. On this site you will learn the plan and purpose of God, which involves changing one's life completely and living godly and righteously according to the teachings of Jesus. Not many people are interested in changing or living godly lives. If you want "religion," go to church--ANY church. If you are interested in the Truths of God, start with the first article at the top of our home page: "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES"--Meet the Jesus that most hate.
Did Jesus "establish His Christian presence in His community?" Wait....His community....wasn't it His "community" that CRUCIFIED HIM? Wasn't it the religious leaders of God's Church and Temple that CRUCIFIED HIM? Are you wanting to find such a religious man as that? One who is "established in his community?" One whom everyone "speaks well of?" I assure you that you are at the wrong web site. Read my first article.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2678.0.html
Dear Neill:
I am exactly of NO church or denomination of institutionalized men. I am a member "The Body of Chirst," which is a Scriptural term and represents the followers of Jesus.
God be with you,
Ray
PS You don't really believe that there is a "church" that teaches what we teach on bibletruths.com, do you?
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2193.0.html
Dear Reader:
I appreciate your good intent, however, I sincerely (in LOVE) believe that your are also wrong in suggesting that I do not do what I do in love and that naming names, etc., is a sin.
If that be the case, then our Apostle Paul is in BIG TROUBLE with His God, seeing that they named numerous names of those who taught heresy and caused devision. Furthermore we are INSTRUCTED to "Expose those who contradict it [it being the True Doctrines of God]" Titus 1:9 (See Concordant Version nd New Revised Standard Version).
I do not "judge" these men: I EXPOSE THEIR HERESY!! I have repeatedly stated that many of these lying two-faced false prophets and hypocrites have very plesant personalities, etc.
I think that I shall continue to do what God has called me to do, but thanks anyway.
God be with you,
Ray
PS Don't have the time to comment on those who are "sincere," but teach heresy.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4814.0.html
Dear Nate: I get asked this a lot, but there is no easy formula for me to give you. You know that you should obey God. This is the primary thing we must all do. But for me to tell you how to live your life on a daily basis, I'm afraid I can't do. If you don't know whether you should continue living in the Babylonian Church system, what good would it be for me to tell you that God says, "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE...." (Rev. 18:4)? If you try to convert your family, friends, and relatives to your new-found truths, they will think you crazy or may even turn on you. So leave them alone. The way you conduct your life will speak volumes about what you believe, however, clever arguments will convince no one. Of the tens of thousands of detractors who have tried to contradict my teachings, which I then answered and proved them wrong with the Scriptures, how many do you suppose said: "Oh, okay, now I see it. I'm sorry. I was deceived. I see now that you do teach the truth"? Would you believe 2 or 3? That's right--2 or 3 out of tens of thousands.
You will face ever-changing challenges in your life--every few seconds, minutes, and hours of every day. You will have to decide how to handle these situations, one at a time. Learn the Truth and then live by the Truth. Did Jesus teach His apostles how to react to every situation that would confront them after He was gone? No, no He didn't. Life is indeed a challenge, and in the final analysis it all comes down to YOU AND GOD. I am at the same place that you are, Nate. No one tells me how to solve all my problems. I just obey God and rely on Him to see me through. Many people want to be teachers after learning a few of the basic truths of God. This is generally a mistake, as it takes more to be a teacher than a desire to teach. I might desire to be a great singer, or a great speller--the reality is both are totally out of the question. I am what I am by the grace of God. I realize that most think it is rather scary to try and live a righteous life not knowing exactly what to do and how to do it. Your darn right it's scary. Life is scary. But knowing that there is a loving God Who is carrying out a righteous and wise purpose on this earth is a giant aid to our infirmities.
There is no better way to assuage our own inadequacies than to help others with theirs. I remember when I was going to college back in California, we took a weekend camping trip to the San Bernadino Mountains. One day we climbed this mountain. A couple of chaperone's brought their children. At one place high up the mountain we followed a trail that was precariously close to a cliff with a long drop. I was getting a little nervous. However, close to me was one of the children (a girl of maybe 8 or 9 years), and she was beginning to have a panic attack. I took her by the hand and put her on the inside and assured her that we would not fall. My fear left me immediately, and the little girl did just fine also. I never forgot that experience. Help and love others, and your life will begin to take on meaning.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4591.0.html
Dear Jayson: I think I know what you mean by saying "your [my] church," but the truth really is, that I don't have a church. The world has churches, and Satan has his church (called in Revelation "The Synagogue of Satan), but I belong to none of them. The Church of Jesus Christ, the Church of the Living God, can only be joined by being SPIRITUALLY BAPTIZED INTO THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST. All spiritually converted people who forsake the glitter of this world's philosophies and materialism, are members of Christ's Church. I do claim to have a ministry in that Church. We advertise on the major search engines such as "Google." Tens of thousands of people a month come to our site and hear the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and the plan of God for humanity. Individuals are also posting and spreading the material of bible-truths.com. To my surprise my name even pops up numerous times in such places as Wikipedia articles. We now have a couple of dozen people w ho contribute regularly to this ministry. One day I hope we will have a thousand, and then we will really begin to make a dent in our coverage. But as Jesus lamented: "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few" (Matt. 9:37).
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3446.0.html
Dear Roy:
You don't need a church when you learn that YOU ARE THE CHURCH. God is wherever you are, so don't feel deserted.
God be with you,
Ray
This is a subject that continues to cause division among members here when we all are to take on the mind of Christ [Phil 2:5] and be of one accord [Phil 2:2]. Though it takes the spirit of God to bring us into the unity of the spirit, some here are choosing to dwell in the flesh. God does not make anyone dwell in the flesh, we do that all by ourselves.
The members here know it is harder for others to simply leave the church...no one ever said it is easy. But to resist the truth and take a stubborn, hardened stance on this is NOT OF GOD. If this is an issue that one is still searching for understanding of, fine. We all have our different things we struggle with and these things humble us. But do not stand up and try to reason with wickedness and unbelief. That is not humble in the least and only causes division.
And this is my opinion, but it still amazes me (even after a year) that we all came here based off Ray's teachings. But then after a short while to joining the forum, a few members will disregard the very teachings which brought them here for their own, personal beliefs. These own, personal beliefs are the doctrines of (insert your name here) and not the doctrines of Christ [John 7:16-17]. Which one are we to follow?
Thanks,
Marques
P.S. Ray has numerous email replies to people regarding church here: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html), in the #7 reply thread.
-
Judith, I have not been a member here too long, but I was going through the same thoughts you are now. I saw many people in the church where I was going as way better people then I was. I also, had concern about them that I did not need to have. I had fear for the ones who God had not called out yet. When, in reality he was going to handle them the same way he handles us now who have been called out.
Now, I know that truth is not taught in those churches. I worked with a girl who was from Jordan. She thought we worshiped more then one God cause of the Trinity. I believe if I would have known the truth maybe she would have believed in Christ. I had a friend many years ago who Sister was always telling her we were going to Hell. I hate to say it now, but I believed nonbelievers were going to Hell. Now, I see that many may have called upon Christ , but because of the lies they did not even want to hear about him. So, for me half-truths are enough for me not to want to be in Babylon's Churches.
Now, I feel bad but my Mother lives with me she is 88 she likes to go to church more to be social with the world. She believes in God but never understood the Trinity and never believed there was a Hell. My Husband, liked to go to be social too. When, I decided not to go anymore they both said, "If you don't go we won"t go. Boy that made me have such a guilty feeling about them. But, I have had times in my life where I hurt God for others. I am no longer in that place. I love him above anything. Another way I look at things now is that they made that choice I never forced them. Now, My Mother wants me to buy her a Bible like they use on here. They listen to things from here with me now. I know sometimes they miss church, but at least they have not turned there backs on me. I am so blessed for that as I am not well. I just can't go to a place that does not tell the truth. We don't even know when others will be called out. I was very active in my church. I use to sing solos in church and people would brag. There was times I felt like a hypocrite cause I had many sins I could not overcome. After, learning the truth he helped me to have victory over some and still guides and leads me. I read my Bible more and really love my alone time with him.
I don't know if this helps any. But, when God showed me the truth I did not want to turn away from it . Right before finding out there was no Hell, I had a sin in my life that I felt desearved Hell. I just seemed to fail him so badly. He helped me overcome that sin and set me free from the fear of Hell. Actually, thinking he would send anyone to Hell was the worse sin that I think I have ever done. I was thinking about his Character and that was not good. If, I thought I could love, did I think he could love less. Now, I look on it and see how dumb I really was. I mean he tells us to love enemies and we think he doesn't. But, we are children of thed truth now and we have no business with the dark. All, we can do is pray for them, but even that is his call not ours.
In His Love,
Marlene
-
Hi Judith,
I understand where you are coming from. I also agree with what Marques is saying.
If I may, I'd like to tell you how we have dealt with this issue in our lives.
First, we came out of the church. I will say this. God made it so easy for us. My husband believed as I did, immediately upon finding the truth. Second, He allowed us to see first hand the "truth" of those we were sitting under in our last church. The last 2 churches we attended were a very sad lot of greedy, kissing-up-to-the-wealthy, could-care-less-about-us, pastors. But we, like you, found so many people who loved the Lord sitting in the pews.
I love my friends. I love having friends. I still have friends. I don't go to church with them. I don't discuss BT with them UNLESS directed to by the Lord or unless they ask me a direct question. I only have about 5 friends who I can speak openly to about our new beliefs. But my other friends are still precious to me and I pray that one day God will open their eyes too and He'll direct me to share with them. But until then, I can love them and offer advise to them when they ask and let them love on me too.
So I guess what I am saying is that you can have non-BT friends. Jesus hung out with the "blind" all the time. As Ray said in one of his responses once... 'Didn't Jesus "eat and socialize with SINNERS in their own homes?"' But you don't have to worship with them in a church. Honestly, I can't worship with them as we don't worship the same truth. The true gospel of Jesus is not found in the churches. So the true Jesus is not worshipped there. How can I go in there to worship and not be a hypocrite or ignore what I know to be true?
Bless you,
Lin
-
Unless you are interested in the Truths of God, I don't think you should bother to read the material on my site. It is straight from the Scriptures, and for that reason, it is most offensive to most Christians.
I am not here to parrot the "damnable heresies" (I Pet. 2:1) of some "local church."
God be with you,
Ray
I am exactly of NO church or denomination of institutionalized men. I am a member "The Body of Chirst," which is a Scriptural term and represents the followers of Jesus.
God be with you,
Ray
We all have our different things we struggle with and these things humble us.
Thanks,
Marques
Indeed, and Amen.
Gary
-
Thanks Marlene and Linny I respond better to a soft touch. I don't attend church regurally whereas I used to be very involved. I don't think I will ever get rid of that guilt. Yes, I believe we are the church and I did return more than a few times but left again and I do have one friend who believes as I do and we are close, another I just don't argue with. My husband says he doesn't believe in God even though everyday I try to show Him God's love. He hates being blind and it is a sorrowful state. My children(4) and 7 grandchildren are much more open to me, I guess it's because I always tought them to think for themselves. One of my families are deep into a church and they don't even believe what is taught, it's more a social situation. If I challenge them, well, I know it is time to shut up. God, how I miss my traditions(yes, I know) And it is lonely as I don't have the time or energy to socialize much as I also have leukemia and tire easily. But I do get up everyday and trust God to help me through with his strenghth. Funny how things worked out, I always thought it would be so much better but I thank God for what is. My husband is not nor has been a good match and even betrayed me for 10 years and now I help him and his brother who was so mean to me when I was young. I always wonder if I missed what I was supposed to do, surely I did. This doesn't seem like God loves me but I believe it anyway. Thanks, Judy
-
Judy, Gods love is the only one we can really count on. All, our trials are for a purpose. When, I feel down it helps me to know he loves me. I believe many need a soft touch. I find it always works better for me.
In His Love,
Marlene
-
My husband is not nor has been a good match and even betrayed me for 10 years and now I help him and his brother who was so mean to me when I was young. I always wonder if I missed what I was supposed to do, surely I did. This doesn't seem like God loves me but I believe it anyway.
Judith-- your husband was the exact match for you, as God intended it. And, you can stop wondering...you did not miss what you were supposed to do! Everything has gone exactly as planned. So God does love you; you can believe that.
Ya gotta let go of the 'coulda-woulda-shoulda' mentality. God's plan for you is perfect. You are exactly where He wants you to be. You can believe that.
-
Hi Pinko,
That was a spot on first post, I totally agree, we are all exactly where God intended for us to be.
I am glad you have joined us and hope you will continue fellowshipping with us here :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Hi Pinko,
Welcome to the forum!
Good post!
Hope to hear more from you.
Iris
-
Thank you Pinko. I need to believe that and reading about free will and maybe reading it again will help cement this thought more firmly. But I was taught about free will differently, God's perfect will and God's permissive will. But I always believed God would "work all things for good to those who believe" This situation I am in just doesn't seem to have worked out very "good" I do not know what good is being accomplished here except for the fact 2 blind men have me as their caretaker which I sometimes resent so badly I could scream! People are always saying, " I don't know how you do it" at which point I say "you have to believe there is a God if you see ME doing this" So, maybe that's it, but not sure. And I don't even do it that well but then again my standards are so high you would have to have a rocket to shoot them down. I am babbling here.
-
;D Hi Judith,
We usually don't understand "WHY" until we look back on it.
You are learning priceless spiritual lessons, let me encourage you, your treasures are stored up in Heaven.
Matthew 6:19
"Stop storing up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. But keep on storing up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where moths and rust do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal, because where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Mark 9:35
So he sat down, called his twelve disciples, and told them, "If anyone wants to be first he must be last of all and servant of all."
And although I agree with what has been shared I would like to add to this for Fester & Judith & My Understanding!
1 Corinthians 9:19
Although I am free from everyone's expectations, I have made myself a servant to all of them to win more people.
To the Jews I became like a Jew in order to win Jews.
To those under the law I became like a man under the law, in order to win those under the law
(although I myself am not under the law).
To those who do not have the law, I became like a man who does not have the law in order to win those who do not have the law.
However, I am not free from God's law, but I'm subject to the Messiah's law.
To the weak I became weak in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some of them. I do all this for the sake of the gospel in order to have a share in its blessings.
You know that in a race all the runners run but only one wins the prize, don't you? You must run in such a way that you may be victorious. Everyone who enters an athletic contest practices self-control in everything. They do it to win a wreath that withers away, but we run to win a prize that never fades. {Treasures in Heaven}
2 Corinthians 6:14
Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony exists between the Messiah and Beliar, or what do a believer and an unbeliever have in common? What agreement can a temple of God (we are the Temple) make with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said: "I will live and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people." Therefore, "Get away from them and separate yourselves from them," declares the Lord, "and don't touch anything unclean. Then I will welcome you.
2 Timothy 2:15Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I always need to pray for God's Grace & Understanding...Seeking to be lead by the Holy Spirit to be a Light in this world. To correctly descern the Will of God when we are learning to apply all these scriptures to our walk/situation.
Sorry for being so long-winded,
Brenda
-
Hi Judy,
Let me share with you a little, so as maybe my experience may help you a bit. My marriage situation is by no means ideal, my husband is not a believer. But at this point I have graciously accepted what God has given me and am thankful for the many blessings I have. But a few years ago I did not have this state of mind at all, I literally was miserable and wanted out of my totally unfulfilling marriage very badly. But I was a stay at home mom and never developed a career, so I was kind of stuck. I had developed major resentments towards my husband, that I had been trying to overcome, but I just couldn't.
Well 3 years ago I 'stumbled' across Ray's teachings at Bible Truths, it was then that God opened my eyes. For about 7 months I spent every minute I could reading for hours every single day. I was seeing one profound truth after the other, my heart was overjoyed and I just could not get enough, still can't.
So soon after I came to the BT site, my whole attitude change almost instantly. The resentment that was greatly hampering my relationship with my husband just fail away. Though he is still not what I would consider the ideal loving mate, he is the one that God prepared for me and is a very good provider among other good qualities. Even though sometimes I do look on him as a thorn in my side, because of his blatant carnal attitude. But I also see that as a means that God is using to teach me as to how better to deal with adversity. We all have our cross to bear and it is meant to be difficult. I am trying to be the best wife I can be and build character at the same time.
Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
v. 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
v. 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
v. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
v. 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
v. 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
I do not really consider my husband my enemy, but sometimes he does provoke my spirit and it is teaching me self-control and that is a good thing. It is indeed a daily effort to be content in all things.
Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Thamks Brenda and Kat. Sometimes one feels like they are all alone, so this has helped. Many people don't talk about their troubles and consequently a person thinks "what did I do to deserve this" I think Brenda said something about "dividing the word" and that is my goal so that I will be studying more. And self control is not my shining virtue but it is getting better, I can let go easier and I do trust God more than I used to. I was just so afraid I missed what I was supposed to do and many things I didn't do because of fear and figured if I hadn't been so afraid I would have had a blessed life but that is not neccessarily so. God would have found me anywhere and finished His works in me. And boy, did he have a lot to do! I am one who needs much good teaching and when I get it(and I seem to know the truth when I hear it) I do go with it. Most of what I know is self taught and Spirit led but that is not the smartest way all the time for we need each other and different perspectives reminding us what is true, so thanks again guys. I think I got it now(at least this part) (chuckle) I'll probably carry on some more in the future though, it's never ending with me. Judy
-
Hi Judith,
Here is one of the best answers from another member; quite eye opening for many.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9021.msg75379.html#msg75379 post #9
george. :)
-
That post from Alex #9 really shows the light.
-
Sorry to be the grinch but the reason we are here is because we have been pulled from there.
Hope to get your attention; why do we keep going back to where we have been dragged from.
Revelation of John 14:8:
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she
made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation of John 18:2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become
the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Revelation of John 18:4:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers
of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
george. :( :'(
Well George, I see it a little differently. My wife and children love to go to church (Baptist) and are all caught up in it. I go with them as we are family, and as such, we try and do things together. I print off a few of Ray's papers and read them during the service. It is great reading time! So although I am physically in church I do not partake of her. I speak with my family now and then about the things that I have learned but I do not force it on them. I hope those little seeds will grow within them. Coming to the truth was a process for me and I realize that it will be for them as well. So spiritually I am out of her and hope to rescue my family from her too. Hopefully, the day will come where we will just stay home and study as a family. So we cannot just think of ourselves all the time but our loved ones as well. So let's not be too harsh on the church goers as they may also have reasons valid to them to still attend. Plus we don't know where they are in their spiritual development/learning. But we do know God will pull us out at His appointed time.
Wes
P.S. They don't have Bibles in the pews but do have a few spares for those who may request one.
Fester, the day will come when you cannot get out of that building fast enough. It's not the "church goers" as you say, but the system, the false doctrines, the outright heresy being taught to decent people (blind sheep) that will run you out.
God will drag you out of that building sooner or later. Just a matter of time. But don't expect you family to give it up.
Those of us who have been around for a few years cringe at the thought of sitting through a church service (again, it's not the people). It's like water and oil, we do not mix.
Dennis
-
Dennis, that is so true! Talk about feeling out of place! Yes even though the people are precious, you have a hard time trying to tell anyone that you have nothing against the people! Everyone always assumes you have been offended by someone and that's why you left! :'(
Kathy :(
-
There are many symbols in Revelation that shout at us without really yelling. This particular Scripture
needs more attention because He (The Angel Of God) CRIED MIGHTILY with A STRONG VOICE.
That is very strong language compared to many other Scriptures, almost as if it is Urgent to COME OUT NOW..
Don't know if Ray has placed any Emphasis on this particular verse about the urgent tone. ??? This must be really
important to heed at this very time.
Revelation of John 18:2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become
the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
george. :)
-
Here are three other translations of the same verse;
Rotherham: And he cried out, with a mighty voice, saying—Fallen! fallen! is Babylon the Great, and hath become a habitation of demons, and a prison of every impure spirit, and a prison of every impure and hated bird;
_______
RNKJV: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
_______
BWE: He called in a loud voice and said, ‘The big city of Babylon has fallen down! It has fallen down! Bad spirits live in it. All bad spirits hide there. And all kinds of dirty birds that people hate hide there.
george. :(
-
I tell you for me there was offense not with the people but with the teaching and the begging for your last dime.
The last night I went to a revival meeting in a pentcostal church I knew I would never go back, it was a time in my life that God showed me get out.
I have never regretted it, not one day.
I do get pretty aggravated though when people beg me to go to church, but that is happening less all the time.
-
Until Babylon is quote : FALLEN ( fallen as seen by the observer....) it remains as the seduction that Scripture describes which will be how those INSIDE Babylon perceive it as Babylon THE GREAT and the BIG CITY of Babylon. These are all very impressive attributes for those who are still mesmerised by the tricks and trinkets IN Harlot Babylon.
For those who have COME OUT of Babylon, it is as the Scriptures say, a FALLEN habitation of demons where all bad spirits hide. Those who are still INSIDE Babylon will not be able to see that it is a habitation of demons where ALL BAD SPIRITS that people hate are HIDDEN.
It is declared that Babylon is fallen . Some do not see it yet. Eventually everyone will see. All will eventually see that God is not a liar.
~We are all Gods creation. When God says Babylon is fallen it is fallen. It is just a matter WHEN God says AND WHEN we return to our First Love. It is in Gods appointed time when blind eyes shall open and deaf ears shall be unplugged by the Spirit of God. It is only by the Spirt of God that any can see, hear or comprehend.
Many at this time are not yet given to either see or hear which is in Gods Plan and Purpose that non can thwart.
Arc
-
Got a question. What do you guys do as far as receiving the physical communion (bread and wine) There was never anything that made me FEEL closer to our Lord than going to receive the body and blood and He did say "do this in remembrance of me" Thanks
-
Hi Arc,
You write it so much better than i can express, yes after over 40 years the Scriptures are now
my life. Of course my wife thinks Ray has me hoodwinked even when we read direct for the Bible.
But she listens and every so often her language is shifting by little bits and pieces away from
Hagee and Meyers and O'steen. I know all will be done in God's timing but it is so very difficult to
wait sometimes. That is where longsuffering and patience has to be developed i know.
Anyway enough of my complaining, good to see you out there.
george. ;D
-
Gods Words are Spirit and Truth. The Devils words are literal lies and point to works not to living by faith.
Taking up your cross and following Christ is NOT a feel good path. It is a path of suffering, intense suffering, trials and much tribulation through which we enter the Kingdom of God. This is not what you will hear in that Church but you will see and hear it in The Church that God is making into His Temple.
There are two kinds of Church "The" church vs. "My" Church ref LOF Part V111. "The" Church of feel good intentions is not Christs Church of learning obedience through suffering. I too enjoyed daily communion in the Catholic Church but got dragged out and am still learning obedience. No one has got it perfect yet except Christ Jesus who is our Faith and assurance.
The path is not easy because trials and tribulations do not feel good but they result in glorious rewards Heb 12 : 11 For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful: but after wards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Arc
-
Got a question. What do you guys do as far as receiving the physical communion (bread and wine) There was never anything that made me FEEL closer to our Lord than going to receive the body and blood and He did say "do this in remembrance of me" Thanks
Hi Judith,
We do not do anything physical. You are right in emphasizing "FEEL" because that's what it is, a feeling, an emotion.
The church uses emotion to create feelings which put you in a mood that more easily allows them to exploit you.
Music is the best example. Many churches start out with upbeat songs and then slowly morph into slow emotional songs designed to put you in the mood to give.
I've been to many movies that made me very emotional but I did not confuse that deliberate attempt by the movie makers to make me emotional with personal a visit from God because I knew better.
The church uses the physical in a deliberate attempt to make you emotional, but the sheep have no clue.
Dennis
-
Dennis, Arc, Judith and all others,
My wife, and two precious grandchildren, are in a Baptist church right now as I have spent my Sunday morning in this forum and in HIS word. I have reached the point that I cannot attend a Babylonian church service as the untruths and attempts to emotionally attract uninformed attendees makes me sick all over. It would be so much easier to just go and attempt to ignore the untruths but I have reached the point that even attending a funeral is very difficult. I know that I have been completely called out of the Babylonian Church System. Thanks be to GOD!
CHRIST did not desire a church or religion, HE just asks that we love, obey, and worship in spirit and in truth the ONE who is EVERYTHING.
The Babylonian Church System worships doctrine and man's traditions. How wonderful it is to know that GOD has me where HE wants me right now and that I do not have a burden to attempt to win others. HE wills, HE calls, and HE does all that HE wills.
Just writing this badly worded reply brings me closer to HIM that is ALL than I ever came to HIM within the Babylonian System. I do think HE will someday call all out of this system and I praise HIM for calling me out. Even though I do feel pain, especially when I am not with my grandchildren, I am fully convinced that HE has me where HE wants me right now.
Sharing in the fellowship of HIS suffering is not easy but is required.
IN HIM,
Phil3:10
-
Hi Judith,
Here is an email answer by Ray that I thought might be helpful to you...
"Is it the fact that you find a Scripture stating something in the Word of God that you conclude that we should "do it?"
I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to keep the Lord's supper. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to be circumcised or be baptized. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to sacrifice animals or offer sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and the like.
Gen. 6:14 commands: "Make THEE an ark of gopher wood...." I have nothing against anyone who wants to follow this command and "Make an ark of gopher wood."
There are hundreds of things commanded in the Scriptures. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to do ALL OF THEM. I don't. I never made an ark of gopher wood, and never intend to.
Any just why don't "I" do any of these things? Well, actually I used to do some of them. I used to pay my THREE tithes (oh you didn't know that there were THREE tithes?). I was water baptized. I used to wash my brothers feet, and I used to partake of the Lord's supper once a year. And now I don't. Why not? Because there is absolutely nothing physical that can make one spiritual.
Paul baptized at one time in his ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.
Paul used to circumcise in his early ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.
All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances. We are now under the "Law of the Spirit of Life." "We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."
Although it was mighty important in Christ's time to worship in THIS mountain or in THAT mountain, Jesus Himself said that the time would come (and so it has) that we no longer worship here or there or in this manner or in that manner, with this set of physical rituals, or with that set of physical rituals, but rather WE WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.
We are to WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH! Now then, does anyone think that we can add to those instructions by adding a few physical, carnal, rituals? I think not.
I hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
-
Amen, Phil3:10,
It Is (He Jesus Christ) in Us Doing The Works (Spiritual Conversion); not us doing works (physical things)
in order to please Him.
Rotherham: Romans 8:28:
We know, further, that, unto them who love God, God causeth all things to work together
for good,—unto them who, according to purpose, are such as he hath called;
george. :)
-
PRAISE be to GOD ALMIGHTY!!! i have become completely sated sitting here dining at this awesome table of scrumptious Spiritual food which is laid out in these posts. my spirit sings as i read His Truths sounding out like a bell ringing for all who He has given ears to hear and eyes to see.
thanks be to God. for He gives the increase.
claudia
-
CJWood, you said something that helped me more than the others. It is like dining here, we are partaking of the life and death of Christ or one could say the body and blood. I do hate to get that mind set though that so very much suffering is NECCESSARY. Didn't Jesus say "what you believe in your heart, then so it will be" I do not want to attract more suffering than is predestined for me because I think I have to suffer to gain Christ.
-
CJWood, you said something that helped me more than the others. It is like dining here, we are partaking of the life and death of Christ or one could say the body and blood. I do hate to get that mind set though that so very much suffering is NECCESSARY. Didn't Jesus say "what you believe in your heart, then so it will be" I do not want to attract more suffering than is predestined for me because I think I have to suffer to gain Christ.
Hello Judith,
No need to worry about that last point for no one can attract more or less that what they are predestined to receive.
Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
1 Tim 1:15-16 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Rom 8:28-30 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
James 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
As Paul suffered many for Christ's sake and was for a pattern to all who are called and chosen, we too must suffer much for His name's sake. But these trials and tribulations cannot compare to the wonderful rewards and spiritual gifts in store for us all.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Marques
-
Yes Judith,
As Marques posted, Heb 12:11 "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
I have to say that we have been through the most horrific trials this year and I count them all a blessing. They weren't enjoyable at the time but to come out victoriously in Christ and with greater faith and courage and patience, all I can say is, "Aaaahhhhhh."
I wouldn't change a thing! I wouldn't take away a second of my tribulation. I wouldn't trade anything for the knowledge and truth and faith that I have been blessed with through it.
I count it a blessing !
Blessings, Lin
-
Thanks guys, it's just been several days with a lot of pain and feel like I can't take anymore. Nothing deathly serious just such difficulty walking and doing the things I have to do. Once in a great while inflammation flares up and so I guess it is time for prednisone which I hate to take, trying to weather it out. All will be o.k. eventually here. Thanks
-
Dear Friend Judith,
I can relate to your gnawing pain.
I am scheduled for knee replacement surgery next Friday, not looking forward to it.
However, the surgeon says stop all arthritis medication a week before surgery except for what I have given you for pain. (it's tylenol with a little codeine) So, I had to stop Prednisone which has worked pretty well.
Now my knee is swollen every day can't walk on it and I can't sleep more than a couple of hours.
So, I guess the fear of surgery is less than the desire to have it over with a.s.a.p. >:(
However, Jesus and many others to a lesser degree suffered for much longer and not for their faith but just because of circumstances. Jesus knew why he suffered, it was for us. Now we are learning to suffer for someone else too.
I know that your personal circumstances lead to suffering for someone else close to you and so I think that I can understand just a little of what you are going through.
It isnt' easy and it won't get any better most of the time, but if it has purpose then maybe it is like carrying a baby to full term and then having a long term delivery. Once the baby is here, only the joy of a new life remains in our minds in most cases. We are similar in that we will be the NEW LIFE and will never again have to suffer physically in the same sense that we do in this life. I think it is a worthwhile goal and I tell myself that it is good because it gives me a better, more realistic understanding of what others have suffered.
How could I understand otherwise?
Love and a big hug for you and yours.
Indiana Bob
-
Marques. Linny, Bob, you guys got this suffering thing down really good. I have always practiced living in the present, I guess it's time to think more of eternity and this life does go by fast. I think I focus on the problems more than I do on God and this is my own doing. I have my mental priorities wrong. Will remember everything you said. I did notice last night after spending many hours here and reading that really confusing Revelations that I feel somewhat better today, my focus was on God not me, it must have helped. Prayers are with you Bob for your knees surgery, so when I am in pain I will pray and remember you too. Thanks to all for bearing with me and your patience, (such a sign of God's love)
-
Hello, I would like to add a thought. I suffer some days lightly and some imensley. But, over a time of years of this almost daily, I find that it is what keeps me so close to God. My staying close to God and dependent on him. This gives him all the glory. I cannot glory in myself. I never thought I would ever get to that point. But, now I thank him for all things. I even thank him when I fall. I believe, also that this builds up our trust in him. Not every one suffers physcial pain, there are many ways of suffering. He knows what to use to keep us where he wants us.
I wish you well Bob on your knees surgery and will keep you in my prayers. I also, will keep you in my prayers Judith.
In His Love,
Marlene
-
Judith Collier and Indiana Bob,
My thoughts and prayers are with you both. No suffering is fun but most of us are blessed beyond belief. All we need do is just look around and see the sufferings of so many others. I am coming off shoulder surgery and it was not so bad. However, the rehab is a real pain and is going to last for awhile.
CHRIST did ask us to share in the fellowship of HIS suffering and HIS suffering should make each of us feel blessed beyond belief. My constant prayer is that HE will not bring more suffering but as I continue to age I am afraid more suffering is ahead. I have not yet learned how to rejoice in suffering but pray that our LORD will prepare me for same.
I do pray that I might have the pleasure of suffering for HIS names sake. Of course, my fleshly side prays that it is not to painful. We all live in the present when we should all look to the future and the relief from all suffering.
In HIM,
Phil3:10