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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Foxx on March 06, 2011, 06:05:31 PM
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Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
I was wondering what this means exactly? When we die we are awaiting ressurection and then judgment correct? What does this mean and other verses that may reference "paradise"? I have my ideas but I would like other's thoughts.
Thanks!
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Ray has spoken on this but I don't have the reference at hand...I'm sure others will jump in. What I do know however is that there is no punctuation in the Greek language and where the comma is put in this verse makes all the difference in the world.
Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Unscriptural.
Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Scriptural.
A few other versions....
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise. (Rotherhams)
Luk 23:43 And said to him the Jesus: Indeed I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the Paradise. (Emphatic Diaglott)
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise. (Concordant Literal Version)
Hope that helps.
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Holy guacamole....I would never have thought of that. Do you know of a reason why the punctuation would be changed? is there some sort of conspiracy in the catholic church that they would have done this?
I mean, I can see the big differences. But if the translations other than the KJV support this then wouldn't most of Christianity just say we are playing "apologetic's advocate"? Is there some other way to prove this?
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Check out the FAQ section, you can find the answers quickly to questions that are asked again and again over the years.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11614.0.html
Craig
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Hi Foxx,
i think this email will help withthis question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html ----
It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context. Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He? No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise." But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant. Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution? God tells us how to solve this verse and every other verse of Scripture: "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
But is this what theology does? No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF --"That VERY DAY the thief went with Christ TO HEAVEN." Oh really? That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradise to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9). And what else is that Garden of Eden called? Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
[1] The "Garden of Eden." Was that garden, "heaven?" What did we find in that garden: (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
[2] The "Garden of Gethsemane." Was that garden "heaven?" What did we find in that garden? (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden, (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you? I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43. Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God. This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does. That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
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Also Foxx, all the proof you need...
Did Jesus go to "heaven" that day? We know that He did not. The church doesn't even teach that He did. Therefore, if he told the thief he'd be in heaven with Him that very day, he lied.
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Well I didn't believe that Jesus went to heaven, I guess I was wondering more about what "paradise" is exactly and what his statement meant.
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In terms of the mission of the website, what church teaching contradicts the scripture (or makes the scripture 'contradict' itself falsely? Ray mentions this one: Paradise is not Heaven.
So that seems to be where your question comes in. If its not Heaven, then what it is?
As always with those not His disciples, Jesus was speaking Spiritually, and in a parable. It is no more a literal "place" than "hades" is. Since that's the case, then it doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) where the 'comma' goes.
What does Ray say about the Persian word 'paradise' and it's greek translation to our English 'garden'? It is used concerning two places in Scripture. Once In Hebrew Old Testament, once in Greek New Testament. Words are defined everywhere (including Scripture) by their usage. Since it's parable and Spiritual, maybe its OK to contemplate openly. So here goes.
I do think that the words were a comfort to the thief. I guess its possible that they had no effect on him other than to harden his heart...I just don't think that was the case. I've certainly been bitter enough to reject all comfort. But given what's been said, I think the message for those with eyes and ears is similar to Psalm 23. Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the shadow of Death (and all these men knew for absolute certain that they were very near there) I will fear no evil. If 'death' is not an 'evil', I don't know what an evil is.
The 'gardens' in Scripture were places of 'evil', as Ray pointed out above. We know that both these 'evils' were unavoidable. We have faith to believe that both are necessary for the Creation of Mankind into the image of God. The Son prayed and sweated blood asking the Father to let this cup pass. But it could not.
So maybe this 'garden' or 'paradise' that Jesus mentioned is the sure knowledge of our own mortality and the momentous and necessary act of dying. Nothing changes life more than dying. With Grace, we also understand the 'dying' we are doing before this body gives out.
Spiritual and parable. Given for our admonition so the man of God may be perfect. That's what I get out of it today.
Does that help? I'm not sure it will, but maybe it doesn't hurt. :)
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Maybe I'm a little confused. Isn't To eat of the Tree of Life a good thing? I mean to be in paradise the garden, even though it's an evil experience, isn't it the way all of Gods elect are headed for their ultimate good? Is Rev. 2:7 a witness to Luke 23:43?
G. Driggs
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Could be, George.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
The dying we're doing IS the overcoming, I believe. Paul said it this way...For I am crucified with Christ. NEVERTHELESS I LIVE...yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Isn't that 'the Tree of Life in the midst of the paradise of God'? Christ in me, the hope of Glory?
As an aside, it was the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Ray referred to as the evil of the first garden. I'm not sure if you got that one crossed up with the Tree of Life in your question. Remember too that evil is not always 'sin', and whether it is or not, God uses and intends evil for our good--whether we see it or not.
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I was always fascinated by "today, thou shalt be with me in paradise".
I always mused: What about the religions that teach that in order for one to get to heaven--one MUST be baptized, or "baptized 'in the church' ". (Kind of hard to do hanging on a cross!)
Why wouldn't Jesus, of ALL people, NOT administer "last rites"? Last rites were never mentioned in the Bible-so whose idea was this? I speculate it is more for comforting the family--that the religious figure looks like he is doing SOMETHING constructive.
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I have to believe that nothing Jesus Christ said was for appearances, but every word that came out of His mouth had profound meaning and purpose.
As I have been thinking about this phrase that Jesus Christ said to the man dying next to Him.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (CLV)
We do not know what the thief on the cross next to Jesus believed, but he may not have believed in the resurrection of the dead... Jesus did know. Couldn't it have been that Jesus was giving this man a bit of truth about his final destination? "With Me SHALL you be in paradise," SHALL BE in a future time. What greater truth could a dying man receive than the knowledge he would be bought back in a resurrection and one day be in paradise with the Lord. As He was breathing His last breaths, some of His final words before He died was giving truth and comfort to another.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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i love this thread. it caused me to really ask myself, "why did Jesus say this statement to the dying thief?" especially knowing that Jesus knew there was no place that He and the thief were getting ready to go to in death, other than the grave. but, after reading through all the posts, i am seeing that ray was not saying that both gardens mentioned in Scripture were evil, but that evil was also present in both of these gardens. i had the same thoughts as g. driggs, regarding, how can the garden of eden be considered evil when the tree of life was also there. the tree of life being Jesus Christ.
and then after reading john of kentucky's response that from the perspective of the thief, the words of Jesus will be absolutely true, since there is no remembrance in death. and with kat's comments about Jesus' speaking emphatically that the thief SHALL be with Him in paradise, and this could be Jesus sharing a truth about the thief's future destination upon his resurrection. and after reading kat's describing Jesus' soothing words to the dying thief, while He was also suffering much physical pain, even unto His last breaths.
thanks for all of this brothers/sisters. thanks Abba Father.
claudia
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I think I understand a little better. It might take some time for me to digest. Thanks all.
G.Driggs
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I like to look at the perspective of paradise in these Scriptural terms,just thinking out loud here.
Joh 15:1 I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer."
The Father is the Farmer and The Son is Abba's created Spiritual True Grapevine in The Fathers Spiritual Garden. Just as we also are Christ's Spiritual garden who shall bear Spiritual fruit from the Grapevine.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."
With me shall you seems to be applying the Word of God into a yet future resurrection for the thief, where Christ, shall be in the thief, and the thief, shall be in the Christ,upon Spiritual conversion.
. Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Jesus Christ is that paradise in the midst of The Fathers Farm.He that shall overcome will eat of the vine and partake in the fruit thereof.
Joh 15:5 I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."
The tree of life[Jesus] is in the midst of the Father[The Farmer], in which His Garden [Paradise] grows because;
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
So shall all overcomers be in the midst of Paradise[Christ], in Christ.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul was in the third [three being the process of Spiritual completion] heaven,which is the most mature Spiritual realm,where Christ dwells with the Father,in the heavens.
Gods elect [and all eventually] will also be caught up into Paradise,in the third heaven,which is in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Gods elect,down through the eons will be with Him in Paradise,just as all mankind will [ including the thief] after their Spiritual conversion in Christ [Paradise].
Jas 5:7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence of the Lord. Lo! the farmer is waiting for the precious fruit of the land, being patient about it, till it should be getting the early and late showers."
Jas 5:8 You also, then, be patient; establish your hearts, for the presence of the Lord is near."
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
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I'm just trying to understand why we insist on applying human terms to a word and or words that we cannot possibly fathom in God's realm. Why can't we just accept that it is going to be a wonderful place, a place better than where we are now, and leave it at that?
Craig
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Thank you Craig,
I wanted to say this from a long time, infact I tried in another post, WOW! the outcome.
Why all the scriptures and trying to relate the words when we're not in line with the "SPIRIT & TRUTH"
The faith is not for all, leave it to Mr. Smith, if he decides to partake or have papers on that topic, then you should relate it, which some members do, you'll will confuse me and all newcomers from christiandom, or that's how christiandom works, that's were we all come from, right!
Some scriptures quoted or explained don't even fit the actual topic. Some quote Greek & Hebrew words but can't give a precise conclusion. We come hear to understand what the SPIRIT shows to the elect, that's Mr. Smith, not celebrate pagan wishes or PHYSICAL happenings, like please pray for my granny's granny, etc.
Read & pray before we post.
Someone said they'll pray for me on my last post but they did not even know my right name (1LUV), how could you! Who's 1LUV? Now I use my proper name for that same reason, so if someone prays for me, I'll know it's for me.
GOD BLESS!
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Craig...the whole purpose of the FORUM is to not let ANY truth escape being search thru. Like a cow chewing it's cud over and over until milk is finally produced, same goes here except it's the "milk of the Word" PRODUCED IN OUR LIVES.
One persons "insignificant detail" can be food for a whole book! I think of the book on the 23rd Psalm where the author wrote a whole book on "sheep beside the still water"--and other facts about sheep. Now who cares about whether thirsty sheep drink from "still waters" or not?? The sheep! Why? A sheep's nose is such that it can ONLY drink from STILL water or it gets water up it's nose and can't drink! Something spurred the person to take on the project.
My father once said "a specialist" is someone who stives to know more and more about less and less!
So there we go. I personally learned something from a detail on the FORUM that years and years of church never addressed.
That being, the 12 baskets of fish and bread fragments could represent those souls who were not saved during the initial "harvest"
being this life. What a simple revelation--but it made me feel warm all over to think I got something new revealed to me from the Bible. Datails, details--so there we go!
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One subject will dovetail into another subject. Flow on mighty spiritual river!
Or one subject will split off from a subject and then another and before you know it the spiritual river is just a trickle.
Craig
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Duane I'm not saying this applies to you but your post did prompt this reply to everyone.
I have been a part of the forum from the beginning, and I have seen much growth and knowledge gained by the members. I wish I had half the knowledge and strength as some of you. But I often wonder (about myself as well as the rest of the members) what has our knowledge profited? Have we become religious elephants? able to carry large loads of knowledge? If so what is the fruits of this vast knowledge? Are we dying to self? Are we becoming more humble? less carnal? Are we becoming a light in a world of darkness?
Or are we becoming religious hobbyist with ADD? Running to a fro looking for the next revelation and then switching gears when the next revelation happens along? Do we only want to live on the peaks? Or do we relish the journey? Do we feel special because we got a revelation or do we know we are special because we are children of God?
Now I'm not claiming anyone here fits this mold but I do want us all to do a little soul searching. Knowledge does not make us the elect nor makes us any more spiritual than an atheist. Ray and his teaching has opened up the scripture to the real Good News that God has given us and for that I am eternally grateful. Are we making the best use of this knowledge and are we applying it where the rubber meets the road? Or are we filling the bed of the truck up but when we get ready to start down the road we find we have no wheels or motor?
Food for thought.
Craig
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Duane I'm not saying this applies to you but your post did prompt this reply to everyone.
I have been a part of the forum from the beginning, and I have seen much growth and knowledge gained by the members. I wish I had half the knowledge and strength as some of you. But I often wonder (about myself as well as the rest of the members) what has our knowledge profited? Have we become religious elephants? able to carry large loads of knowledge? If so what is the fruits of this vast knowledge? Are we dying to self? Are we becoming more humble? less carnal? Are we becoming a light in a world of darkness?
Or are we becoming religious hobbyist with ADD? Running to a fro looking for the next revelation and then switching gears when the next revelation happens along? Do we only want to live on the peaks? Or do we relish the journey? Do we feel special because we got a revelation or do we know we are special because we are children of God?
Now I'm not claiming anyone here fits this mold but I do want us all to do a little soul searching. Knowledge does not make us the elect nor makes us any more spiritual than an atheist. Ray and his teaching has opened up the scripture to the real Good News that God has given us and for that I am eternally grateful. Are we making the best use of this knowledge and are we applying it where the rubber meets the road? Or are we filling the bed of the truck up but when we get ready to start down the road we find we have no wheels or motor?
Food for thought.
Craig
That is excellent food food for thought Craig, thanks. It goes right along with some of my thinking on a thread I intend to make shortly and hope to get some responses and feed back on. Thanks.
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I'm just trying to understand why we insist on applying human terms to a word and or words that we cannot possibly fathom in God's realm. Why can't we just accept that it is going to be a wonderful place, a place better than where we are now, and leave it at that?
Craig
Or, as Ray put it to Kennedy:
"Certainly it does not deserve to be compared with the end result that God has in store for all His Creatures. Our Apostle said that the glories that are to be revealed to us are so great he calls them "a burden!" Imagine having so much happiness it almost becomes a burden."
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm
Sounds good.
gk
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How is it done, John? I reckon when you're ready, you'll know. :D
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I'm just trying to understand why we insist on applying human terms to a word and or words that we cannot possibly fathom in God's realm. Why can't we just accept that it is going to be a wonderful place, a place better than where we are now, and leave it at that?
Craig
Hi Craig.
The heavens within are hearts and minds are the realm of God,to those in Christ.
I do not believe we can understand what the Word of God is communicating to us in human terms,on a human level,but I do believe God can, on a Spiritual level, open up the Scriptures so that we as human beings can be blessed with what The Lord requires of all that He wills in the lives of those whom He is calling out of the world. Without Him,we certainly can do nothing.
Some sound advice from Ray...
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html
What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom? . . Mobile Conference 2005
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein:
How are you going to keep the sayings of the prophecy in Revelation, if you don’t even know what it means.
Well God chooses people out in every generation to learn these things and hopefully we will learn some of these things today.
This book was written so that nobody could understand it, until God picks somebody out and says I want you to understand this book and I’ll show you how to understand it. That’s the only way. He’s got to pick you out and open up your mind or you will never understand this book. This book is written in all kinds of symbolism, figurative language, types, figures, images, examples, analogies, parables, metaphors and people think all those things are literal. That is confusion. That’s why the church is confused. That’s why there are supposedly 3000 Christian denominations in the world, because they don’t understand any of this stuff.
Jesus Christ said to His Apostles, to you it is given to understand, but to them it is not given to understand.
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
To you it is given, to them it’s not given. There’s you and there’s them and that’s just the way it is and the way it will be until the close of the age.
Hope this helps some. :)
Peace... Mark
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Excerpt from 12 Truths (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm):
TRUTH NUMBER 12
"If any man will DO His will, he shall KNOW of [concerning] the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of Myself" (John 7:17).
"But he that does truth [Gk: ‘is DOING the truth’] comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they [his ‘doings’] are wrought in God" (John 3:21).
"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that you might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding: That you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Col. 1:9-10).
"My son, if you will receive my words, and hide [‘treasure’] My commandments with you… Then shall you understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom: out of His mouth comes knowledge and understanding" (Prov. 2:1, 5-6).
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is True, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God, and eternal [eonian] life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (I John 5:20-21).
"And he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it, which also bears fruit…" (Matt. 13:23).
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endures for ever [the eon]" (Psalm 111:10).
I have thus far presented you with hundreds of Scriptures. Do you agree with them? Do you believe them? Are you willing to DO THEM? Whenever God and our Saviour speak to us, we are to BELIEVE AND OBEY. All who have ever attempted to circumvent these spiritual truths learned were not taught of God,
"…but vain were they made in their reasonings and darkened is their unintelligent heart. Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid…" (Rom. 1:21-22, Concordant Literal New Testament).
Every single person I know that has stopped growing, spiritually, begins to go backwards, loosing what light they may have possessed because they are no longer faithful to the Word and commandments of Almighty God.
I think the above excerpt goes along with Craig's point about putting this knowledge we have obtained to use. The apostle James said we are to be 'doers of the Word' and not simply hearers, otherwise we deceive ourselves [Jam 1:22].
So if I am able to do those things you described above, then please tell me how it is done. However, I don't think it is within us to be able to do good, in anything. It is all from God, and I will be what he wants me to be when he wants.
And John, I know you have referenced this verse many times in the past:
John 15:5 I [Jesus] am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing
And these words from Christ are absolutely true, we can do nothing WITHOUT Him. But what about WITH Him?
Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
This is how we 'do' these things that we are admonished to do. And if we know that it is Christ who has opened our understanding to the Truth, we KNOW that it is He who dwells in us. And with that knowledge, we can fulfill the words of the apostle James:
James 2:18-26 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Thanks,
Marques
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Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
James 2:18-26 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Thanks, Marques, for bringing this forward at this time. I just love these scriptures that keep us humble by putting us in our place, yet strengthen us at the same time!
René
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All is from God. All. Jesus knew. Jesus said there is no one good but God. Jesus said that He (Jesus) could do nothing by himself. Jesus said it was the Father who did the works.
John
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works
John, no scripture interprets itself [2 Pet 1:20]. The Father was not who Satan tempted, or Who was crucified, or Who was resurrected. Jesus did all those things, and He was able to do them because the Father was IN Him.
John 5:36 I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father
In the very passage that you referenced, Jesus said that those who believe in Him would do the very works that He did. And how would we do this?
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
John 6:56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him
John 15:4-5 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing
Paul says that Christ IN us is our hope of glory [Col 1:27]. This is HOW those who God is calling do good works. You asked how and that's the answer. It's not taking anything away from the Father, it's explaining HOW God does the work in us.
Marques
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Marques
So basically you are agreeing with John because I don't see any explanation of all those verses you quoted. When Jesus was on earth, he did everything throught the FATHER or in the name of the FATHER, That's what I gather from all these verses you quoted without explanation. Jesus is now the mediator between the Father and men. So much of scripture without any explanation.
God Bless!
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Marques
So basically you are agreeing with John because I don't see any explanation of all those verses you quoted. When Jesus was on earth, he did everything throught the FATHER or in the name of the FATHER, That's what I gather from all these verses you quoted without explanation. Jesus is now the mediator between the Father and men. So much of scripture without any explanation.
God Bless!
Here is the explanation, AGAIN:
This is HOW those who God is calling do good works. You asked how and that's the answer. It's not taking anything away from the Father, it's explaining HOW God does the work in us.
John asked 'please tell me how it is done' in regards to dying to self and other good works. Also this point was made as well:
This is how we 'do' these things that we are admonished to do. And if we know that it is Christ who has opened our understanding to the Truth, we KNOW that it is He who dwells in us. And with that knowledge, we can fulfill the words of the apostle James
Gordon, it would be wise to actually follow the discussion before jumping on someone's case.
Marques
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Marques
Please make me understand this! every scripture you quoted below seems that Jesus is doing or speaking about the FATHER or thru the Father,John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works
as I read John's post The Father needed someone to betray Jesus. The Potter selected Judas to do the dirty deed. Many believe Judas betrayed Jesus because Judas was bad. Others see Satan behind the betrayal, which is also true. However, behind the curtain, it was actually God the Father who brought about Judas and Satan doing what they did. It was actually God the Father who killed Jesus.
All is from God. All. Jesus knew. Jesus said there is no one good but God. Jesus said that He (Jesus) could do nothing by himself. Jesus said it was the Father who did the works.
He is plainly saying that The FATHER is doing all thru Jesus, yeah! How can GOD call anybody to do good works, if he don't accept Jesus, "Jesus is the way to the Father" right and I'm also sure that GOD's spirit dwells in every living body or that body is dead, yeah.
How wise must one be to follow this!
God Bless
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Marques
Please make me understand this! every scripture you quoted below seems that Jesus is doing or speaking about the FATHER or thru the Father
Gordon, I can nothing more than post the scriptures I have. Without God it is impossible, but WITH God, ALL THINGS are possible [Matt 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27]. But 'only to those who believe' [Mark 9:23]. Paul said that it is God working IN US, to will and to do [Phil 2:13]...and if He is IN US, then we can produce much fruit [John 15:5].
Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.
Marques
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Hi Marques,
I don't believe that there are any fundamental disagreements between us. I was being a little stinko by asking my question. It was a rhetorical question. I already knew the answer to the question before I asked. Both faith and works are needed. James and Paul do not contradict.
I asked the question because I keep on picking up an undercurrent of thought here that somehow we are in some way responsible for the works we do. Maybe it's none of my business. But I perceive that thought from various sources here.
However, you cannot disregard the fact that Jesus said the Father did the works. Jesus was the agent, the Spokesman, but everything He (Jesus) said or did came (and comes) from the Father.
Hello John,
I placed in bold the reason you are 'picking up' this train of thought. No one is disregarding Who and What the Father is but you constantly assume so in the forum members. You need to give the members a little more credit in their understanding of the Truths of God.
For example, there is no need for someone to constantly state 'If God Wills' before and after every statement they make on this forum. We all already know this. We also know that it is God who opened our understanding, even if He used a retired roofer.
So as God is dwelling in us, opening our understanding, we also know we will do good works because we abide in Him and He in us. Jesus said so and Jesus is not a liar. The Father isn't typing on your keyboard, you are. The Father didn't find BT to read Ray Smith's teachings, you did. And only because He was IN you.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.
Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD. Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08). It is a GIFT from God. We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44). And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.
GOD BLESS
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Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.
Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD. Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08). It is a GIFT from God. We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44). And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.
GOD BLESS
Gordon, you want to argue just for the sake of arguing and I'm done with it. Jesus said these things are possible to those who believe [Mark 9:23], and since you don't, there is nothing more to be said.
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Hello John
I know you LOVE to emphasize almost continuously how all is of God, and how it is God who does all the works. And I understand that, but I think my perspective is different. And you like rhetorical questions. OK so here is a rhetorical question, that may help me show what I mean. Why did God create Satan? Why would God have an in between? Of what REAL use is Satan? Why can’t God directly cause all the pains and evils, why can't God directly make the rapist to rape, and the terrorist to blow someone away, if as you say, God the Father is actually doing it? Seriously, why does God need Satan? I mean, God the Father does all the works, right?
I think, to answer my own rhetorical question, that since God IS NOT EVIL HIMSELF, He made Satan to be EVIL to do those very evil things that God has no stomach to do so. It is not God who is raping little children; it is evil men who are drawn away by their own lusts. It is Satan, who of his evil desires, being instrumental in directly causing these evil things. God needs evil to accomplish his works, to make us into His image, and has created both evil and evil beings and evil people, but God does not DIRECTLY do these things. He created beings to do these evil things, so He would not have too!!!
Of course God steers everything, and God is responsible for everything. God may goad satan to do things, or play “chess” with him, but when I or Satan or you do something evil, it is the lusts in ourselves that we are willingly obeying. We are the ones that do it. Not God. Even if it could NOT be otherwise, even if we are so subject to causes that if the event was repeated over and over the same outcome would result, doesn't change the fact that YOU or I DID IT. And we do it willingly and with intent. I am at peace with this. I feel God can justly judge me and hold me accountable. Even as I know He has planned all my steps, I still take ownership and despise the evil within me, and repent of my evil acts with tears. And as I grow in Him, thank God, less and less evil comes through and from me.
So, with Jesus in me, I find myself doing righteous things, and Less evil things! I have FAR LESS lusts in me than I have had before. I love others, and I want to DO things to help them. I think Craig asked a question near and dear to my heart. I do NOT want to stand before Jesus and say, I have no good actions, but, but, I have a lot of knowledge! NO NO NO. If anyones’ understanding of God doing all the works is SUCH that they end up using that AS AN EXCUSE to actually not to try, not to wrestle, then you are in a sad state indeed. It is not an EXCUSE NOT TO STRUGGLE AND OBEY! I want to DO something with all this newfound LOVE and UNDERSTANDINGS! I want to do the works of JESUS. I WANT TO OBEY! I want to live pure and holy. I want to love righteousness and hate wickedness. I want to give to others. I want to treat all my customers fairly. I want to be trustworthy and full of integrity. I want to be used for good.
I fully understand Marques words, I thought his explanations, the bible verses, were spot on and wonderful. Without Him we can do nothing, but what indeed, can we do with Him???? Great question. So let us walk in the Spirit so we DO NOT do the deeds of the carnal nature! Of course in our old selves we can do nothing! But who says we are to remain that way? ARE we not NEW CREATIONS? Can we not do all things through Christ who strengthens us? . And thank you Craig, for that EXCELLENT QUESTION.
Doug
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Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.
Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD. Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08). It is a GIFT from God. We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44). And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.
GOD BLESS
Hi Gordon, can you please provide a link to where Ray said that. I personally could not find it, but I may have missed it. Thanks.
G.Driggs
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Job tells us in verse 21, "...Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return: the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away: blessed be the name of the LORD."
Did Job say the wind killed his children? No. Did Job say Satan killed his children? No. Job said God killed his children, "...the LORD has taken away..."
No question these scriptures are very comforting. I/we can trust God to use the "junkyard dog" in a way completely above and beyond any way that we can, and as God is the ultimate cause, I am calmed by that usage for I trust Him! As God goaded satan and did turn the junkyard dog on Job (within the constraints God set) we really do need to have some comforting words after that terrible episode, that God is in charge, that God did set the parameters, and so it helps us to see past satans malevolent hand to Gods benevolent hand, and that really changes things! GOD TOTALLY FIXED ALL THAT SATAN DID! WE NEED READ THE WHOLE STORY! WE SEE HOW THE STORY ENDED AND JOB WAS MADE WHOLE! Maybe my major disagreement with your statements when you speak of evils and say "God the Father did it" is you actually are not privy to see these things unfold in the heavenly realms, and you cannot know or speak of how God is going to make it all whole in the end. Therefore I feel it is more prudent to blame the immediate causes, but yet look to God in faith that He will restore, that He will make it all good, all whole in the end. When you do not/cannot completely explain it all, as the book of Job did, I think it is not prudent to say that God is the one doing it. Because from our very limited view, we can only see the work of satan, we cannot see the plan or future work of God. We can only in faith see that God will overcome all this. So we run the real risk of making God seem like satan, when he is not. I know that is not your intent, but it can be perceived that way.
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After reading all these threads until my eyes are blurry--one scripture comes to mind --good works are for the person to do "that others may SEE your good works and GLORIFY (not the person) your Father, who is in heaven." Pretty deep, huh? LOL
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Wow, So many responses. I have been reading many of them. Some of which are off topic but I understand how all this stuff is connected in some form or fashion but it's my first time checking this thread in a week so I just wanted to thank everyone for all of the useful input! I will use it and think on this to further my understanding. ;)
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3096.msg23129.html#msg23129 (ftp://http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3096.msg23129.html#msg23129)
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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
Luke 23:42-43
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me WHEN THOU COMEST INTO THY kINGDOM.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Comparing 2 Corinthians 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succored thee: BEHOLD, NOW IS THE ACCEPTED TIME; BEHOLD NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.)
Joel