bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: newgene87 on July 08, 2012, 01:42:25 AM
-
ok, this is not a question on the "divinity" of Jesus. not at all. this IS one that is used to attack His divinity but listening to Ray's audio on Jesus is God reassured me today :D. but i dont recall him expounding on this verse, and this verse has ALWAYS made me wonder why did Jesus even say this??
"And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God" (Mat 19:17)
"But Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God" (Mar 10:18)
"But Jesus said to him, Why do you say Me to be good? No one is good, except One: God" (Luk 18:19)
All 3 Gospels say the same thing and why does Jesus appear to deny he's good and mentions God is the only good one... when He is God?? Or better yet, "Emmanuel" God with us (Mat 1:23). It seems the ruler or the rich young man (whichever one) was acknowledging Jesus as the True Messiah, yet Jesus appears to deny it. and it "appears" (there go appears again) that this contradicts Philippians 2:6 " who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, ". He's equal to God, why even make this remark?? Regardless, i'm going to my family on this, i'm always seeking to learn the Truth on matters like this. I put "appear" intentionally so yall could scold me down with wisdom and truth 8). If this was already discussed, Kat, i'm already counting on you to send me that handy dandy link to fix me right up ;) :D. I would appreciate all the replies. Love all of you!
Eugene
-
Christ had the same sinfull flesh we have. Romans 8:3
-
Might add that the reason Christ didn't sin was because he had the full measure of his Father John 3:34. Christ could only say and do what he heard the Father say and do. John 5:19-20
-
Christ had the same sinfull flesh we have. Romans 8:3
but how is that direct relation in him saying he's not good?? I mean, He even says that HE is the One Master - Mat 23:8 - and it was revealed from the father for Peter to call him the Christ (Mar 8:29). So to just say he had the same sinful flesh we have is to say he was a sinner....or it's a thin line to say it ???.
Eugene
-
Christ had the same sinfull flesh we have. Romans 8:3
but how is that direct relation in him saying he's not good?? I mean, He even says that HE is the One Master - Mat 23:8 - and it was revealed from the father for Peter to call him the Christ (Mar 8:29). So to just say he had the same sinful flesh we have is to say he was a sinner....or it's a thin line to say it ???.
Eugene
Perhaps it's simply humility. Doesn't the scripture state He was made 'a little lower' than the angels for the suffering of death? [Heb 2:9].
-
Eugene Read Romans Chapter 7 with special attention to verse 18. Christ had the same corruptable flesh that you and I have and " Could not inherit the Kingdom of God ". 1John 4 verses 1-3 will explain your question. Jesus was not made perfect till the his resurrection Luke 13:32
Longhorn
-
Hi Eugene,
Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
v. 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Was Jesus saying that He was not good? Jesus did know why the question was put to Him in the way that it was and answered accordingly. Could it be that this young man considered Jesus only a mere man? Could Jesus' answer have been to instruct the man in the knowledge of His proper deity?
Sometimes we hold the view of something in a certain way and we need to look at it from a different perspective. Jesus was not saying that He was not good/God, but was asking and clarifying to the man that as he did call Him/Jesus good, that he should consider where His good came from. Because as Jesus certainly was good and there is only One that is such, God... so therefore the man should understand that He was God by the goodness of the Father that He could see in Him.
Jesus was the God of the OT come down in the flesh and being in the flesh did not remove His deity. He said He was One with the Father and that certainly made Him God.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
v. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
v. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
v. 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
v. 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, "I said, "You are gods"'?
v. 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
v. 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming,' because I said, "I am the Son of God'?
v. 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
v. 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Longhorn are you comparing Jesus to Paul? Here is that verse in Romans where Paul states that in his/Pauls flesh dwells no good thing.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
And why was Paul unable to perform any good? He said why a few verses before.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Paul was "sold under sin," was Jesus sold under sin like Paul? Heavens forbid such a blasphemous idea. Jesus was perfect body, Spirit and soul or He could not have been the perfect sacrifice.
1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified(G1344) in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
G1344 to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus Christ was just - innocent and "without sin." And therefore the only possible hope for mankind was Him as a 'perfect' sin offering.
Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a High Priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
v. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for His own sins and then for those of the people, since He did this once for all when He offered up Himself.
v.28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
Our only hope of reconciliation to God is through Jesus Christ, who was "all the fullness of God" in the flesh.
2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
v. 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Col 1:19-20 For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Jesus is good. Jesus is God. Don't let the answer to the rich young ruler's question be worse than the question itself.
-
Hello,
I believe its in reference to what "SEED" was perceived by the ruler. As that the seed ...the Adam seed was Good....From the few point of the ruler.JESUS was going to make things straight in truth.That its only The "Last Adam"1-Cor 15-45-48 .Christ=Seed.Was good by example of Matt 4-1-11.In which I believe the Scriptures teach Christ crucified the first Adam on the cross.In Samford & Son terms
Look here Boy.The only thing that has the ability to do good is the Seed of Christ.You will never overcome within your own self {carnality} of the seed of Adam.I will go and crucify what you call good so you can eventually truly become good.
Which I think works hand and hand with:
Sometimes we hold the view of something in a certain way and we need to look at it from a different perspective. Jesus was not saying that He was not good/God, but was asking and clarifying to the man that as he did call Him/Jesus good, that he should consider where His good came from.Kat
as well as:Perhaps its simple Humility....Marques
Thats my thoughts God Bless!
-
Dave love ya Man!Jesus is good. Jesus is God. Don't let the answer to the rich young ruler's question be worse than the question itself.
Shaaaazam...Capitan Marvel wouldnt of thought of that!...lol..hehe.LIttle Andy Griffin there...good ole Gomer.
-
"And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God" (Mat 19:17)
The word except in the dictionary:
conj.
1. If it were not for the fact that.
The above definition corresponds with the greek, because the word that is translated except is two greek words:
ei ( if,whether) and
me (no,not lest)
So a translation could be like this:
"And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good without One, God" (Mat 19:17)
-
Longhorn are you comparing Jesus to Paul? Here is that verse in Romans where Paul states that in his/Pauls flesh dwells no good thing.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find....
thank you Kat. you put pieces together to clarify that for me. i was headin in that way of perspective and it wasn looking good.... "Jesus, with sinful flesh, sold under sin, but he was God...hmm". but i got it now. thank you all!
Jesus is good. Jesus is God. Don't let the answer to the rich young ruler's question be worse than the question itself.
Dave, thanks for that too; but if it was that simple; all of Ray's papers need to be at the most, TWO PARAGRAPHS. I mean yea, Jesus is good, Jesus is God...but uh, i need some clarification ;) but thanks. with all the answers here, i can put the pieces together in view of Jesus always responded in such a wise way, PARABLE, only really the few can see it in the way of truth 8).
Again, thanks for the love towards your little little brother, okay, i'll take son :D
And thank you eagle. i had a feeling it couldve been a play on words. But still, i see now. Even as a Man, Jesus still had to direct answers to the focul point. Either He always glorified the Father and/or referred to God first. As i was studying this, Jesus only truly revealed himself to his disciples, never more to the masses. (or i could be wrong).Jesus always gave glory to the Father, yet revealed His relationship to the Father to His Disciples. And something that Ray said that put pieces together for me. "Two people cannot make one person. But two people can make One God" (cant be too far from Rays words from His audio "Jesus is God"). To me, it makes sense. and you all just put it together for me.
Eugene
-
Paul was "sold under sin," was Jesus sold under sin like Paul? Heavens forbid such a blasphemous idea. Jesus was perfect body, Spirit and soul or He could not have been the perfect sacrifice.
kat, i was confused by the bolded section above, which i noted from part of your post. it is most likely just my misunderstanding of what you were meaning. my first thought was that you were saying Jesus' actual physical body was perfect, meaning He was never sick while living in the flesh. i was remembering where ray had mentioned that Jesus Himself did experience sickness. i found the following email to ray regarding this topic. i copied the last 2 paragraphs of that email.
anyway, i was just trying to understand more clearly what you were saying in that particular part of your post.
claudia
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7887.0.html
He lived in the midst of scenes of sorrow, and be became intimately acquainted with its various forms, and with its evils. There is no evidence that the Redeemer was himself sick at any time - which is remarkable - but there is evidence in abundance that he was familiar with all kinds of sorrow, and that his own life was a life of grief.
COMMENT: In addition to this plain teaching of Isa. 53:3, Why did the Pharisees tell Jesus to "heal HIMSELF" if they saw absolutely no "sickiness or disease" in Him? How could Jesus be "healed" of a sickness which He didn't have?
God be with you,
Ray
-
Hello again,
One verse that has so much depth to it is:.Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words, which I speak to you, still being with you, for all must be fulfilled that is written in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms concerning Me.
When we consider this verse with the understanding Christ never sinned.He still took on the sins of the World.And do we not think He didn't know that He would?,And Christ Knowing this prophecy...Lk-24-44.Knowing that He was to become the "Sin Offering"for mankind.Do we think Christ was thinking that he was good?He did say "Flesh and blood could not enter the Kingdom."And he had to keep His Order!1-Cor 15-27-28. Christ did say "Why have you forsaken me."The more I read and understand Lk-24-44 the more I think some people are going to be real surprised whats ahead in the milliem reign.just a thought
-
P.S.Christ still had to come into obeidence to the plan of the Father!As a man.
-
Hi Claudia,
Well was Jesus sickly? I find it is interesting that there is no other Scripture that mentions anything about that whatsoever, other than the Scripture you mention. And in that Scripture it was Jesus that was speaking about a proverb/parable.
Luke 4:23 And He said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to Me this proverb, 'Physician, heal Yourself.' What we have heard You did at Capernaum, do here in Your hometown as well."
If you read this whole passage you will see that He does not seem to be speaking healing sickness. But is speaking of His spiritual work.
Luk 4:18-19 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
We know they thought He had a demon (John 7:20; 8:48; 8:52), was He implying that He thought they would say He should heal Himself of this demon doctrine He was proclaiming? I don't know.
My point in the other post was that there is no doubt to me that Jesus lived a sinless life spiritually and physically, therefore body, spirit and soul. Anyway that's what I'm thinking on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Gene, you are on the right track. Jesus NEVER spoke plainly to any but His disciples...and didn't always speak plainly to them. It should no more seem like Jesus is denying His own Goodness or Godness than it should seem like Nichodemus should enter into his mother's womb to be born again.
No scripture is it's own interpretation. We need to follow the 'logic' that doesn't make scripture contradict. Kat is spot on, particularly her second post. Not only did Jesus NOT have the "same sinful flesh" that "we do"...WE don't even have "sinful flesh", if by that we mean 'our bodies'.
WE may (and do) use our bodies to commit sin, but there is nothing sinful about our bodies. Sin is a spiritual condition and comes out of the 'heart'--not the 'blood pumping physical organ', but the Spiritual heart. HE did not use his body to commit sin, but has a heart to obey the Father. This is why scripture says He came IN THE LIKENESS of sinful flesh to CONDEMN SIN in the flesh.
As Ray put it, we are not Spiritual Beings having a physical experience, we are physical beings having a Spiritual experience.
-
I agree with Dave.
And this might help
John ch. 9
1 And, passing along, He perceived a man, blind from birth.
2 And His disciples ask Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he should be born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man sinned, nor his parents, but it is that the works of God may be manifested in him.
So you see? Having an illness is not an indication that someone committed sin or that the flesh itself is sin. Jesus' body was made of flesh and we all know that the flesh is WEAK. Jesus' flesh was no different. Besides, HE WAS AROUND SICK PEOPLE day in and day out healing them, for crying out loud. Of course He got sick; otherwise what is said here would be totally and completely meaningless:
Isaiah 53:4
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted [grievously affected especially by disease; mentally or physically unfit].
This is a cut and paste from my reply on the same topic that came up two years ago:
Okay, this is how it sounds to me:
Jesus was saying to the man, "Why do you call me "good" when you don't even know what 'good' (God) is/does, and I can prove it to you: Go sell all you possess and give your money (the thing that rules you) to the poor." Jesus [who is God in the flesh] comes to serve, not to be served. But "service to others" by "emptying" himself was not "good" in the ruler's vocab. (I'm not judging.)
( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11821.0.html )
Hope that helps
-
Gene, you are on the right track. Jesus NEVER spoke plainly to any but His disciples...and didn't always speak plainly to them. It should no more seem like Jesus is denying His own Goodness or Godness than it should seem like Nichodemus should enter into his mother's womb to be born again.
No scripture is it's own interpretation. We need to follow the 'logic' that doesn't make scripture contradict. Kat is spot on, particularly her second post. Not only did Jesus NOT have the "same sinful flesh" that "we do"...WE don't even have "sinful flesh", if by that we mean 'our bodies'.
WE may (and do) use our bodies to commit sin, but there is nothing sinful about our bodies. Sin is a spiritual condition and comes out of the 'heart'--not the 'blood pumping physical organ', but the Spiritual heart. HE did not use his body to commit sin, but has a heart to obey the Father. This is why scripture says He came IN THE LIKENESS of sinful flesh to CONDEMN SIN in the flesh.
As Ray put it, we are not Spiritual Beings having a physical experience, we are physical beings having a Spiritual experience.
now dave - THAT was SPOT ON. like wow, shot me right in the kisser. 8) both bold quotes are the biggest to me and i will keep this at heart. again, thank you again. I love feasting on the bread of Life :D
-
I agree with Dave.
And this might help
John ch. 9
1 And, passing along, He perceived a man, blind from birth.
2 And His disciples ask Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he should be born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man sinned, nor his parents, but it is that the works of God may be manifested in him.
So you see? Having an illness is not an indication that someone committed sin or that the flesh itself is sin. Jesus' body was made of flesh and we all know that the flesh is WEAK. Jesus' flesh was no different. Besides, HE WAS AROUND SICK PEOPLE day in and day out healing them, for crying out loud. Of course He got sick; otherwise what is said here would be totally and completely meaningless:
Isaiah 53:4
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted [grievously affected especially by disease; mentally or physically unfit].
This is a cut and paste from my reply on the same topic that came up two years ago:
Okay, this is how it sounds to me:
Jesus was saying to the man, "Why do you call me "good" when you don't even know what 'good' (God) is/does, and I can prove it to you: Go sell all you possess and give your money (the thing that rules you) to the poor." Jesus [who is God in the flesh] comes to serve, not to be served. But "service to others" by "emptying" himself was not "good" in the ruler's vocab. (I'm not judging.)
( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11821.0.html )
Hope that helps
Thank you as well Gina. I was wondering when you were gonna pop up and hit me with your best shot ;) :D. The past was VERY helpful. Ray's teaching on EVERYTHING Jesus said was a parable is becoming more and more true by this. again, thank you all
-
quote from Ray (Who & what is Jesus?)
Luke 4:22 …And they said, "Is not this Joseph's Son?"
v. 23 And He said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to Me this proverb, 'Physician, heal Yourself.’
Did you get that? Doubtless He said, your going to say that to Me. Why? He healed people, right? But He was sick and diseased! So your going to say to Me, well if you’re the great Physician and You're healing all these people, surely you're going to say to Me, “Physician, heal Yourself.”
Christ had a burden to bare. He was nothing to look at though, sickly and diseased, “a tender shoot out of dry ground” (Isa 53:2), sick, diseased with infirmaries.
Now it says in Isa 53:3, “He is despised and rejected by others, a Man of suffering (Heb.-pain).” Because when we say suffering, right away we think of some spiritual thing. You know He suffered persecution and things of that nature. It’s still suffering, but the word is pain. Why was He in pain? Because He had infirmaries. Is this a different Jesus than you have been thinking about?
Isa 53:3 “...and as One from whom men hide their faces…” that’s not what it says in the Hebrew, it should say “As One who hides His face,” Imagine the Son of God, Creator of the universe and in a body that’s uncomely, diseased, infirmaries and pain. It’s like when you go through a crowd, you don’t want to call attention to yourself, because there’s nothing here to see, you know.
Isa 53:3 “… He was despised, and we held Him of no account. V. 4 ….. and carried our diseases;”
Do you understand where this says He was tempted in all ways as we, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). And we think once in a while a pretty girl passed Him, He had to say, well I’ll look the other way. No! This is a whole lot more real than that.
He carried our diseases, oh. They will say, no He went to the cross for our diseases. No, He carried them in His body. And now is where they say, God just really beat the living day lights out of Him? That we count Him stricken down and afflicted? Who would say that?! It says WE. It doesn’t say God struck Him down. That is blaspheme. WE accounted Him stricken down and afflicted, we that’s a people. When they saw Him, they said 'this Man is being cursed of God, look at the pathetic thing. God is cursing this man bad, I wonder what He did wrong.' And then He would heal the people.
I mean it wasn’t the first time where He said, I know your all looking at Me saying, “heal Yourself Physician.” That must have come up many times, you know. It’s not in the Bible though it says;
John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
I mean how many hundreds of times did someone say, Lord you’ve healed me, I’m whole, why doesn’t God heal You? He would say that’s not My job to be healed and walk around whole and handsome, fortified and all that. He came to carry your diseases. I heal you, but I carry them in My body. WE account Him stricken down by God and afflicted, because that’s what you would conclude and that’s what people would look at.
Look at me I’ve got bad feet and ankles, horrible knees, diabetes, sleep apnea, heart murmur, high blood pressure and a huge blood clot on the brain. People would say, Ray why is God cursing you like that.
tIsa 53:5 ‘But He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the punishment that made us whole, and by His bruises we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”
So not only did He have to carry all of our sins and shortcomings and everything else to the cross. But all His life He carried the pain, the sickness, the disease and the infirmaries in His body. Why? Because God is not going to put us through something that He is not willing to go through Himself! That’s why we follow in His footsteps, see. Now you have to understand in the same way that God spoke through Christ, every time He opened His mouth and God healed people, every time Christ said stand up or walk or whatever, the Father was doing it! In the same way, the Father is suffering through His Son.
Do you not suffer when your children suffer? Would you not trade places with them when they hurt and when they cry? Doesn’t it hurt you more than them, right?
This one little boy, his Dad said now son this is going to hurt me more than you. The boy said, well Dad hit yourself then. But really it’s more painful for the parent to see a child suffer, then it is for the kid to suffer I think. Because we see their youthfulness, their weakness, their innocent and we say, just give it to me Lord. Just give me their suffering.
So God was suffering through His Son. What is this all about? Is this more of this bizarre stuff? What is this all about? Here is the Son of Man, all filled with diseases, sicknesses, infirmaries and all of that. He put the iniquities of us all on Him.
Isa 53:7 “He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth.”
-
Thank you lauriellen! I was looking for that. Couldn't find it.
I just noticed this:
Isa 53:3 “...and as One from whom men hide their faces…” that’s not what it says in the Hebrew, it should say “As One who hides His face,” Imagine the Son of God, Creator of the universe and in a body that’s uncomely, diseased, infirmaries and pain. It’s like when you go through a crowd, you don’t want to call attention to yourself, because there’s nothing here to see, you know.
I can relate to that.
-
here is another quote from Ray:
[Comment to Ray: It’s impossible for God to die.] Okay, it’s impossible for God to die, that’s why He sent His son.
[But Jesus was God… you’re saying.] He could be called God, but Jesus said no you not, you are gods.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
God is not the name of the Father, it’s like a title.
I’m a Smith and my boy Blake, he could say, ‘I’m a Smith.’ But he’s not me and I’m not him. I came first and he came second and all of those things are true with Jesus. So you have too many scriptures, you cannot buck them.
Thomas, remember when he said I won’t believe it until I see it myself? So when Christ appeared when Thomas was present, He said here Thomas, put your hands in the side of My body. And what did he say?
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto Him, my Lord and my God.
“my Lord and my God.” Jesus Christ did not correct him and say, wait a minute, don’t be calling Me God. Earlier, before He was resurrected, somebody called Him good, they said “good Master” (Luke 18:18).
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
v. 9 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
He said don’t call Me good. There is only one good, that’s God. Now we’ve got Thomas calling Christ Himself God.
end quote.
I was going to say that maybe Jesus asked WHY the man called Him good to see if the man really understood WHO he was really talking to?
(God in the flesh) Not telling him NOT to call Him good....? If that makes sense?
-
Knowing what we know now, isn't it amazing that God caused all of that to happen? That was all a teaching tool used by God to make a parable.
God made the young ruler and he made him rich, just like he made Joseph high in command in Egypt. It was all of God. It is not a sin to be rich. (The rich and poor have this in common: The LORD made them both. Pro. 22:2)
Further:
Proverbs 29:13 The poor man and the oppressor have this in common: The LORD gives sight to the eyes of both.
God was not willing to open this young man's eyes at that time. It's also interesting to note that Jesus essentially sent this young man packing - with his wallet intact. How about that? He didn't rob the young man of his riches, turn around and sell it and give it to the poor, Himself. No, He said, YOU do this. (Knowing all along that the young man wasn't built for that. Mark 10:21 (CLV) Now Jesus, looking at him, loves him, and said to him, "Still one thing you are wanting. )
Suppose for a moment the young man did everything Jesus said to do; what does that tell you? Someone said on another thread that he was looking for a shortcut and there are no shortcuts with God. I guess.
Having money is not evil and neither is being poor a virtue. If being poor were so virtuous, Jesus would have never told the young man to sell what he had and GIVE his MONEY to the poor. Right? Jesus knew the young man's heart and that he was used to the finer things in life and wouldn't like getting his fingernails dirty (or giving up all that power and rule) -- not that the young man would have actually gone without the necessities, since Jesus supplies ALL our needs and makes our cups runneth over where it actually counts.
It is as Ray said, God doesn't choose pansies to do His work.
Great thread.
-
Enjoyed the post lauriellen!
-
I think the answer goes back to the verse where Jesus states in John 5 "I can do nothing of myself". Everything he does is because of his father enabling him to do it. We are spiritually too weak to not sin but Jesus never sinned because God enabled him to be spiritually strong enough to resist sin.
Correct me if I'm off base here
-
Hi Foxx,
Not off base at all, I would even go further. The Son was so filled with the Father, He did exactly as the Father willed in everything.
John 3:34 For He whom God has sent utters the words of God, for He gives the Spirit without measure.
It was like the Father was doing it Himself, that is because they are One.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Yep. Even Ray said, Jesus didn't sin because His Father wouldn't let Him.
No free moral agency here:
Gen. 20
1 And Abraham journeyed from there toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.
2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, you are but a dead man, for the woman which you have taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, will you slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not to me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said to him in a dream, Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart; for I also withheld you from sinning against me: therefore suffered I you not to touch her.
Jesus was tempted in every way that we are, yet without sinning. That's not to say that He ever took a woman in order to ... well, you know, or that He even wanted to do that (obviously, He didn't want to do that because His Father wouldn't let Him want to). But I pulled that out to show how obvious it is that God has no problem holding anyone back from sinning that He so chooses.
Haha - this always cracks me up. Ambimelech's all "In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands have I done this." And God's like, "Mmm, yes, you're just the sweetest thing, oh surrre. You have no integrity! That was ME who held you back from sinning, THAT'S why you didn't touch her, you knucklehead!" It has nothing to do with the integrity in our hearts.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
-
Hi Gina,
Liked the story and the lesson it provides, but isn't it so that Abraham and Sarah did deceive Abimelech into believing that he had the right to claim her as a bride or concubine according to the King's culture?
Because, if I understand the lesson, otherwise Abimilech would have had to kill Abraham first to make Sarah a widow and available to be claimed by Abimilech.
Great lesson, thanks for sharing, Bob
-
Hi Gina,
Liked the story and the lesson it provides, but isn't it so that Abraham and Sarah did deceive Abimelech into believing that he had the right to claim her as a bride or concubine according to the King's culture?
Because, if I understand the lesson, otherwise Abimilech would have had to kill Abraham first to make Sarah a widow and available to be claimed by Abimilech.
Great lesson, thanks for sharing, Bob
Hi Bob. I submit to you that he was already deceived in his heart -- he did not have the love of God residing there seeing how he would have killed Abraham for Sarah without hesitation, without a doubt. (You really think he wanted to marry her? That remains to be seen. ;) ) He was totally lying to God -- now Abi's knees were knockin just like had Abraham's knees knockin in the hours preceding: "But they told me they were brother and sister - blah, blah, blah" Well, der! Look who they were up against! (If I were Abraham, I would've been scared out of my mind.)
Regardless it was all of God and I'm sure there are plenty of nuggets of truths and lessons in that story alone and you got me thinking. I like that.
And you're welcome, Bob. :)
-
Kat nailed it imo on the first page here;
Christ was telling him, There is none good except God. Aka, if you are calling me good, you're calling me God. As in, you do know what you're saying, right?
Like Kat said, He was having the man think about it for His own sake, not because He (Christ) was not good or was not God.
I don't know.. that's how I see it. :X
-
Oh no ! Not Longhorn parroting "Jesus IS sin" again...........
-
ha, Seriously!
Stop that Longhorn. Besides, what could you possibly know Longhorn--your head exploded like a zillion times already. Is there anything left of it? ;D :P
-
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
because
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
When we keep His commandments[precepts] we show Him that we love Him and in doing so we then begin our journey of overcoming the world and the process of entering into the good Life,with our Father.
I think the 'none good' that Jesus was expressing to the one asking was the forth coming benefit and virtue of gaining Life with the Father after ones Spiritual conversion unto life eternal. Even Jesus Himself was not perfected until He arose from the dead Luk 13:32. As long as we are in these earthly bodies of flesh,we,by nature,can not be of any good,unto the one that is Good Joh 6:63. The Father is seeking righteousness of Spirit,not a perceived human righteousness of the flesh. [Job comes to mind.]
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing...
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Eph 2:8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
Peace...Mark
-
Even Jesus Himself was not perfected until He arose from the dead Luk 13:32. As long as we are in these earthly bodies of flesh,we,by nature,can not be of any good,unto the one that is Good Joh 6:63.
- Marky
Really Marky-Mark? I dunno my friend...
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
Does Jesus come into the flesh or not? True that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life, but literal flesh and bone is not itself sinful. It's the heart (the seat of emotion) that is deceitful, desperately wicked, not my skin, etc.
2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
We can't do anything good "unto the one that is Good" while in these earthen vessels?
Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
I'm pretty sure we can if God is working in us.
-
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
Gina,do you believe you are good because Jesus had shown many good works?
Does Jesus come into the flesh or not? True that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life, but literal flesh and bone is not itself sinful. It's the heart (the seat of emotion) that is deceitful, desperately wicked, not my skin, etc.
If sin is missing the mark,which I believe it is,Your denial is with God, not me...
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
I'm pretty sure we can if God is working in us.
Does God working in you make you good? Does not God work both good and evil in you?This verse states that it is for His good pleasure,not yours.
Peace...Mark
-
Paul was "sold under sin," was Jesus sold under sin like Paul? Heavens forbid such a blasphemous idea. Jesus was perfect body, Spirit and soul or He could not have been the perfect sacrifice.
You must be kidding Kat. How come Jesus said he would be perfected on the third day ( after his resurrection) incorruptable.
Be careful Marky Mark. I said the same thing as you ( and out of scripture) the very words of Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit and was called a blaspemour. Some people have no understanding of the words of Christ " Born of a woman, Born under the Law".
-
To add to what Gina was saying about this.
Luke 13:32 And He said to them, "Go and say to this jackal, 'Lo! I am casting out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and the third day I am being perfected(G5048).'" (CLV)
Luke 13:32 And he said unto them—Go and tell this fox, Lo! I am casting out demons, and, cures, am I finishing, to-day, and to-morrow,— (Rotherham)
Luke 13:32 And he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course. (ESV)
Luke 13:32 And he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course. (rsv)
The words "I am being perfected/finishing" as is in Strong's.
G5048 - to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.
"The third day" surely indicated His resurrection, which the plan of human redemption was not "finished/prefected" until that was accomplished.
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
When He died on the cross His work was done, He knew His Father would raise Him back to life so that His mission was completely for the redemption of mankind. Jesus Christ did not need to be made more perfect than perfect, He was already perfect, but at that time He did still have to perfect/finish/complete the work of dying on the cross.
Heb 5:9 And having been perfected(G5048), He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
mercy, peace and,love
Kat
-
Satan's shifty. Being PERFECT and being GOOD -- are they one and the same? Satan as shifty as he is, is PERFECT for that thing which he was created. Is he GOOD? Nope. (I liken Satan to the baking soda in the cookie dough of life--he's a necessary ingredient.)
Your original statement was:
Even Jesus Himself was not perfected until He arose from the dead Luk 13:32. As long as we are in these earthly bodies of flesh,we,by nature,can not be of any good,unto the one that is Good Joh 6:63.
I said we can be used of God who is working in us to do His GOOD pleasure. But you switched on me and you come back and say:
Does God working in you make you good?
When did I say *I* was "good." We're talking about those works that the Father works in us. That is what is GOOD. God is not a HUMAN PERSON, though this body is His temple. Oh forget it--it would take too long to explain.
Does not God work both good and evil in you?This verse states that it is for His good pleasure,not yours.
Are you kidding me? Did you not see that it is God's GOOD pleasure? Since when is good evil? Good works are decidedly not evil works. How much more clear can I make that? Yes, we can be used of God to do good works. That's does not mean that I am yet perfected or completely good.
Jesus never sinned. Jesus' flesh was weak; it was not sin; it is the heart that is deceitful and desperately wicked; not the skin and the muscles and the tendons and so on.
Jesus is GOD.
Therefore Jesus *IS* GOOD.
In addition, as you stated, He is now perfect .... continued...
-
Also, Jesus Christ was our perfect sacrificial Lamb. He was a Lamb without spot or blemish (not literally of course!).
-
Also, Jesus Christ was our perfect sacrificial Lamb. He was a Lamb without spot or blemish (not literally of course!).
What do you mean by " Not literally of course" ? Why pray tell was there a Sin Offering ( What we are) AND a Tresspass Offering ( What we do)? I see the point if we were Spirits having a " Fleshly " experience. So did Christ Not have a physical blemish being Born of a Woman, Made Sin, Under the Law and not being perfected UNTIL the third day, or are Christ's words in 1Peter 1:19 like Christ's words all through scripture " Calling things that are not (yet) as though they were? I ask again, SHOW ME the scipture where Christ's say's being born of a woman, under the Law does not constiture sin. Yes our flesh, Bones, Heart, Blood, Hair, Boogers, ect ARE SIN.
-
His body was made of flesh. I'm sure being out in the sun all day long every day and healing people and carrying all those diseases in his body he must have gotten one or two moles or freckles -- certainly he was acquainted with sickness (physician, HEAL THYSELF). These things don't make the flesh sinful -- that is how the body works. I can only imagine that his fingers and hands were calloused from His time spent as a carpenter. That's all I meant, Longhorn. Geez. (Did your head literally explode? I must have because this stuff is not that HARD. But it's spiritually discerned. I'm not worried. It'll make sense to you eventually.)
-
Longhorn, you are bringing in outside teaching and Ray addressed this at length in 2 Bible studies Oct/Nov 2006 "Was Christ Made Sin?'.
Transcripts
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html
Audios
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
If that is what you believe that's you, but do not bring that blasphemy here.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Listen up, we obviously disagree here. Ray has answered this in his teachings and letters. My belief is the same as Rays was, Christ was not made sin, I looked this subject over closely and I think it is very wrong to suggest such a thing. Now, that being said, nobody is forced to go along with what Ray had said on this subject but if you hold another belief then we are not allowing it to be brought on the forum. It is a teaching that goes against the teaching that Ray taught.
Now that being said, there are many subjects we can agree on so lets keep the discussion on those. No need to cause hurt feelings or strife on matters we may not agree on.
Craig