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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Robin on September 15, 2007, 05:42:12 AM

Title: appointed/ordained
Post by: Robin on September 15, 2007, 05:42:12 AM: I saw this verse today and it is another verse that takes free will out of the picture.

Acts 13:47-49 NIV

47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
" 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

49The word of the Lord spread through the whole region.

Acts 13:47-49 King James
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

49And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

ap·point·ed –adjective
1. by, through, or as a result of an appointment (often in contrast with elected): an appointed official.
2. predetermined; arranged; set: They met at the appointed time in the appointed place.
3. provided with what is necessary; equipped; furnished: a beautifully appointed office.

or·dain
1.
a.To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on.
b.To authorize as a rabbi.
2.To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
3.To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: indianabob on September 15, 2007, 10:38:41 AM: Good topic M.G.

I'm going to stick my neck out a little here and just ask.

It seems entirely reasonable that God would operate His Kingdom in this way, but
folks who are just learning or haven't studied God's plan carefully of even a little
may see this as unfair; IF we don't add that others WILL BE ordained in God's plan
and will enjoy the benefits and challenges that the presently ordained have.

I think that most folks have the mind set that it is NOW of NEVER in relation to God's calling.

Please comment, Thanks, indianabob
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: sonofone on September 15, 2007, 11:23:14 AM: I am going to try to give my spin on this and let the chips fall where they may. What is Freewill ? I know that we admit here that man has a will, and that he is able to make choices. Where I think I have a hard time accepting if I understand what Ray teaches correctly, is that man is not able to choose without cause.Which I believe is another way of saying, man can only choose what the creator chooses him to choose. I submitt to a slightly different definition of free will. Simply stated the freedom that God gives people or in a stricter definition,Adam, to make decisions, to reject God's will. If this whole life that we live was simply about God's choosing or his will,without man having the ability to choose against his will what need is there for us to be here? What need is there for Jesus,? What need is there for the plan of salvation? What cause would there be for God to be angry, jealous,? What cause or need would there be for God's wrath, or judgement? As I said in another post I think we confuse or get confused with understanding eternity as it relates to time.When God said let us make man in our image,in eternity it was done; however in the element of time it had to be walked out and worked out. Part of that working out was Adam choosing to disobey God.We have to all be in agreement that Adam disobeyed God. The tree of life, (Jesus) was in the middle of the garden, just as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,(carnal nature).We know that Adam chose the latter.Can we also agree that Adam was made or created in innocence unlike us? This is to say that prior to this choosing, the carnal nature of man which we are born in, had not yet been activated. Gen 3 vs 4-7. After they ate there eyes were opened. A change in their nature occurred, after their choosing.Which leads me back to my understanding of the definition of free will.The freedom that God gave Adam to make a choice to reject his will or to disobey his command. Notice what God says of man and what he does in regards of this in Gen 3 vs 22-24. Can you see that if God had not cut him off from the garden that he could have made a choice that would have been in opposition to the will of God. This is the first time but certainly not the last that God interrupts or overides the will of man. Notice the type and shadow in verse 24. The cherubim with the swords that guarded the tree of life. There remained no way that sinful flesh could access the tree of life,except by passing through the sword. Even now this is true. You cannot access God in your sinful nature without passing through the word or the sword. Hebrews 4 vs 12-13. The sword cuts through or off our carnal or sinful nature as we press through to access the tree of life.Free will existed for Adam, he could have chosen to eat from the tree of life, which was right there in the middle of the garden. God did not make Adam choose as he did. Adam chose. That's why judgement followed.What judge would sentence a man to death or punishment knowing he was not guilty of committing the crime? How could God being Just behave unjustly?He subjects us to death and judgements and punishments and sufferings because we did only as he willed us to do? God forbid we were and are guilty.Notice I make no assertion that Adam was created perfectly the n malfunctioned as Rays arguments points out. If he were already perfect he would have been unable to choose as he did. However I do contend that he was responsible for his choice, because as clearly stated the tree of life was there for the choosing. The fact that God appoints, chooses, elects,or, ordains,does not disallow or nullify the freewill of man.If you look at it in the natural, in the rearing of my child,I override his will.I sometimes have to snatch him from danger, make him clean his room. The fact that I impose my will over his does not mean he has no free will.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Kat on September 15, 2007, 12:22:44 PM: Hi sonofone,

I think what you are saying is we have a limited free will? I believe you think in order for it to be fair to be held guilty, then we have to make the wrong choices on our own.
Ray does go into this many times. Here is and email on our be accountable.

http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#account ---------------

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins. They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy. The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF. God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering. Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS. Think of sin as DIRT. It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray
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This is a segment of Ray's Bible study on ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html ------------

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
v. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:
v. 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, YOU SHALL NOT eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

Did Adam know that God said, you shouldn’t eat this? He knew that! Does Adam have a free will? Ask any minister, of course he does, did Eve have a free will, absolutely they say.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

So did she know what was right, because of what she was told? Yes, she just acknowledged that, did she not. Did she just acknowledge that she knew what they were suppose to do and what they were not suppose to do. Did she have that knowledge? YES! Does she have a will that is totally free and can not be influenced by any outside circumstances, cause, factor, divine or otherwise? Well theology would tell us yes she does have that.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (She knew that)
v. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
v. 5 For God doth know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
v. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat…”

But she did that by her own free will, there was nothing that influenced her to do that? Are you Crazy! Are you reading a different Bible from me? Satan tricked her. Her will was no more free than my cat’s.

v. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food….she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

Now they say, ‘well they were deceived.’ No. No, because Paul told Timothy, Adam was not deceived, Eve was deceived, but Adam was not deceived. (1Tim. 2:14) So you can’t even say, ’well he was deceived, that was the problem, he had free will, but he was deceived.’ He was not deceived, the Bible say he was not deceived. So if he had a will, and it was free, he knew right from wrong, God told him, his wife knew it. Now he is confronted with his wife wants him to eat and could he eat, knowing that God said “Don’t eat.” Does he have this freedom of will, to either do it or not do it? He DOES eat it. And every human being that has ever lived sins, and is also partaking of the tree. Everyone.
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Now I want to make a distinction. You hear about this term free will all the time. But in religious circles you hear about free moral agency. What they mean is, that free will is free moral agency. It’s not only the ability to make uncaused choices, but it is also the ability to choose the right choices. Not just to make a choice that’s not caused, but to make the right choice which is morally, ethically, spiritually right and correct, you see.
Here’s the thing, they think you have a kind of barometer that God put inside of you that has the ability to choose the good things of God. That will make, you know, brownie points for you, as opposed to doing bad things that will bring punishment and judgment upon you, ok.
That’s what we mean by free ’moral’ agency. You are an agent of morality and you have the ability to choose proper and good morality without any cause whatsoever. Of course it is total nonsense. But I just wanted to show you what they mean by free moral agency.

Free will means more to them than just the ability to make uncaused choices. But to make the right morally correct choices. Now if this is so, then why do we need the Spirit of God? Why would we need the Spirit of God if we have this ability already? You see how it short changes God, short changes the Spirit, and it short changes what He’s doing for us and teaching us. And all that He’s doing it makes it all useless and worthless, because they think you already possess all these abilities. That’s why they call it free moral agency.

John 16:13 "Howbeit when the Spirit of truth, is come, he(it) shall guide you into all the truth..."

I changed the he to ‘it‘, because the Spirit of God is not a he, it’s an it.
Now if we need the Spirit of God to guide you into all truth and by that we also have to include the truth about what’s good and bad, right and wrong, morally proper and what’s immoral, you see. If we have to have the Spirit of God to do it in us, to cause, see it’s got to be a cause there. If this spirit of God comes in you, but doesn’t do anything - remember we read that free will is the ability to formulate free causes without anything interfering or working in your behalf. Well now, if the Spirit of God comes in you and doesn’t do ANYTHING, what good is it? What earthly or heavenly good is it?

I mean let’s think about that, what good is it? But then if we say the Holy Spirit inspires you to do what’s right, well wait a minute we just threw free will out the window. If you need the Spirit of God to cause you to see the right and choose the right, you just threw free moral agency out the window. You don't need something to do something, if you can do it without it. You don’t need a jack, to jack up your car to change a flat tire. If you could change a flat tire without a jack . Did you get that?

What is it that comes into our lives to lead us into truth and goodness? The Spirit of God! But if we’ve got free moral agency, which they say gives you the ability - that’s why they gave it the stupid name ‘free morality,’ because it means you are the agent of uncaused goodness and morality. In other words, a man is basically good if he wants to be.
Well why doesn’t it ever work? Why is it that NO man seeks out God? All have sinned, why if we‘ve got this thing? Listen, if you have free will, at least it ought to be a 50-50 proposition, right. You ought to have at least a 50% chance of doing right, as oppose to wrong, right. At least 50-50 would have to fair, right. No, it’s so lopsided, it’s 100-0. You have to be taught , you have to be shown or God has to intervene in your life in some way or you will not be a good person.
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Well here is the truth in one verse.

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

People like to quote that and say, ‘you got to do it yourself, it’s your own free will.’ No no no no no. The reason you do it with fear and trembling is the next verse.

Phi 2:13 For(because) it is God which works in you BOTH(2 things) to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That’s God, not your free will! God does that!
We throw out God and we take on ourselves this little demigod called free will. Therefore we despise the sovereignty of God. We despise the Word of God and you are not going to grow spiritually. You got to know who and what God is in relationship to who and what you are, are you will never grow spiritually.

If you don’t see that you could have been Hitler, just as easy as Hitler was Hitler, you don’t understand who and what you are. You don’t understand the scriptures, you don’t understand the plan of God, you don’t understand anything.
God makes vessels of dishonor(Roms 9:21). But you say, ‘Oh I though Hitler had free willed himself into being that monster.’ Circumstances, his own lust, there is no other way. There is no other way he could have turned out.

If God is determined that you and I will obey Him from here on out, guess what? There’s no other alternative. We will do it! But the only thing is, He doesn’t tell us for sure that we are one. Christ knows those that are His (John 10:14). We don’t. Philippians 2:13, God will do it, He works in you to will and to do. But then verse 12, with fear and trembling. Why? We don’t know for sure we are one.
Paul said less I become a castaway (1 Cor 9: 27). But you say, ’how could Paul become a castaway?’ He said it could happen. He said I don’t take it for granted, it could happen you know, unless I be a castaway, so I’m going to endure to the END.
Isn’t that what Christ said, he who endures to the end (Matt 24:13), all the way to the end. The runner who stumbles and falls 2 feet before the finish line, does not win the race.
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Audio is available at this links.

http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill2.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: sonofone on September 15, 2007, 12:52:20 PM: Did I understand Ray to say that Satan tricked Eve? I do have a problem with your analogy when it relates to Gods holding us accountable. Firstly the King of Assyria is an example of God interupting the will of man which is only evidenced after Adams choosing which I stated in my original post. You can find a myriad of examples to this point beginning with God kicking Adam out of the garden so that he could not stretch forth his hand and eat from the tree of life, The flood , the tower of babel, Pharaoh ,the working of salvation,IE election,or chosen, The blindness that he causes on Israel, etc..Secondly,your analogy if sin being,as dirt.Saying that it is of no consequence how or why we got dirty,it is only a matter that we are now dirty and require a bath.If I use this analogy,It leaves the question I asked, concerning God's judgment,and anger toward us unanswered. Why the anger? When I get my son dressed for the day I expect him to get dirty, so that when he does I do as you said God would do I wash them. No punishment needed, no anger toward him no judgment. But watch the difference when I judge he could have done better, Now I hold him accountable, I become angry, I judge, I punish, i instruct.You can not escape the fact that God holds us accountable, and judges us because a reasonable expectation exist that he could have chose differently. Without admitting this essential fact. I feel that we make God unjust.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 15, 2007, 12:56:48 PM: Rom 7:7-14 explains the situation in Gen. 2:16,17. Understanding this allows us to tie all of Rom 7 & 8 together. When God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, the command which was meant to bring life, produced death. By partaking in the knowledge, not only does sin appear exeedingly sinful, but we also then recognize our dependancy on God for life.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 15, 2007, 01:11:25 PM: And what is sin? It is anything apart from faith. What is faith? It is more than just believing something, it is an understanding. Heb. 11:1 and 11:6 work together: NKJV vs.1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for (vs,6 God is a rewarder), the evidence of things not seen (vs.6 that God is, the "I Am"). It is impossible to please God without faith. Faith comes by hearing God, and through our obedience to his instruction is how we both please him and reap the rewards of his counsel. If I tell my small child, do "x" and give him specifics as to how to do it, and why to do it, and what will happen when it is done, and then the child does "y" and says "but I was just..." and acting on their own understanding, you will see how God would consider this wrong. If you don't follow the instructions, you will do it wrong. This is why God sent Jesus, to make propitiation for our sins and reconcile us to God, apart from whom there is no life, only death. Rom 7:8 "But sin, taking opportunity by the command produced in me all manner of evil desire..." is the same thing Eve experienced prior to partaking of the "fruit". It is out of our own hearts that desires come, even though the cause comes from God. This is why God takes full responsibility as our creators. The word also tells us to be angry and sin not. Anger is not a sin. Anger is the emotion which defends our boundaries and protects us from harm. Sin is deceitful, it appears "good" but truely results in death.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: indianabob on September 15, 2007, 01:21:28 PM: Well said Kat,

I appreciate that moderators can have difficulty in responding to a lengthy well thought out premise that MAY contain some basic error. You have dealt with this issue thus far and I have benefited. Thanks.

Based just on my first impressions of Sonophone's letter I would recall the following from my history.

I think this became an important issue for me while I still believed, in 1975, that after being called, once I had made some type of irrevocable decision, something like the unpardonable sin, that I was then condemned forever and even God couldn't correct my error or bad choice. "Sorry, I gave you your chance, too late now".

I used to believe and some folks still do I think, that I myself had to repent of my error or at least go to God and beg to be restored to His favor, otherwise God would just leave me in my unpardonable sin and eventually, in His great mercy, annihilate me. Even then I didn't believe in 'hell fire' for eternity; just permanently.

I think that the above thinking is why BT's understanding is so essential to understanding the character and mercy of God. Not only can God fix me, no matter what I do, God has planned this from the beginning. Any other belief leaves a great gulf permanently between me and God and God is not that way.

Yes I have choices, but none of my choices can ever remove me from God's mercy. So therefore I don't really have the 'free will' that would be defined by most other folks in the world's institutions.

Please feel free to add understanding and correction to the above.

Thanks, indianabob

Thanks again for your detailed explanation using Ray's comments.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: hillsbororiver on September 15, 2007, 01:44:28 PM: Hi Folks,

The way I understand this is everything that happens is God's plan, we were born with pride and lust in our hearts, we love to sin, we are slaves to our weaknesses and we enjoy the act of sinning, we start right from our birth to succumb to our carnal desires. What God has ordained is that once the Lord opens our eyes (He does it in a variety of ways) we begin to see the self destruction that is sin, He blesses us with the faith we need to start to despise the things we once held dear or at least justified. We want to slay the beast within.

Along this difficult road we stumble, and we stumble often, learning the futility of our own will and effort and how utterly and totally dependent we are on Him, we learn that the only real happiness and fulfilment comes with doing it His way. Even knowing this is not enough, He is forcing us to live it, yes we make choices but these choices are limited to the circumstances we find ourselves in, who orchestrates those circumstances?

If a piece of clay had a brain, a spinal chord, and nerve endings how would it feel being kneaded in the potter's hands, put on the potter's wheel, being dried in the kiln, being coated and then once again into the fire so the colors become vivid and become one with the clay, if this clay had a mind would it not think it was experiencing some painful, strange, even bizarre journey, one that might make no sense at all, until of course the finished product was finally revealed to it, then this once soft mushy piece of clay would see what a beautiful and glorious vessel it had been transformed into, never, ever wanting to return to its former state.

We are presently experiencing the act of being created, much like this lump of clay we do not particularly enjoy being kneaded, formed, dried, painted and kiln fired but how well worth it all when we see and experience the end result.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Lam 4:2 The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S. Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: dawnnnny on September 15, 2007, 02:45:54 PM: Hi everyone - reading this thread made me think of the one part of Ray's writings about Eve that BLEW ME AWAY. I always thought they were created perfect and without sin. But when I read this part of the LOF series, I was shocked. To me it means that God created us, including our hearts, and therefore that is where the responsibility for His creation comes in. We are accountable, yes - but He takes responsibility, which is why the whole universal reconciliation fits in perfectly - because God is perfect. Anyway, I thought I'd copy this part below for anyone who hasn't read it yet. Its never fails to amaze me how little I know, or that how much of what I thought I knew was .... wrong ;) ;)

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT SPIRITUAL
It is believed by most that the Ten Commandments, if followed by everyone, would eliminate all of the problems of the world. Did you know that it is possible to keep ALL of the ten commandments without having the spirit of God or without being spiritually converted? 'Tis true. Here are the commandments:
1.   You shall have none other gods before Me,
2.   You shall not make you any graven image…,"
3.   You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain…,"
4.   Keep the Sabbath day to sanctify it…,"
5.   Honor your father and your mother…,"
6.   You shall not kill [murder],
7.   Neither shall you commit adultery,
8.   Neither shall you steal
9.   Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor,
10.   Neither shall you covet…

Yes, even unaided by the Holy Spirit of God it is possible to keep these commandments of God. And the proof of this is simple: The penalty for breaking any of these commandments was death, and yet, most in Israel were not stoned to death for breaking these commandments. All of these commandments are referred to as "carnal commandments" in the New Testament (Heb. 7:16). They do not require a converted spiritual heart to keep and obey.

There was ONE commandment, however, that was of a spiritual nature. It had to do with the desires and inclination of the heart. It was the 10th commandment:
"Neither shall you desire [covet] your neighbor’s wife… house… field… manservant… maidservant… ox… a@@… or any thing that is your neighbor’s" (Deut. 5:7-21).

However, was anyone ever stoned in ancient Israel for coveting any thing that belonged to his neighbor? No. Never. One could "covet" anything he wanted all day long, just so long as he didn’t break any of the other nine commandments!
One could "covet" his neighbor’s wife, just as long as he didn’t commit adultery with her—for that he would be stoned to death.
One could "covet" his neighbor’s ox, just so long as he didn’t steal it—for that he would be stoned to death.
Oh "coveting" was a sin all right, but since it cannot be detected by man unless it eventuates into stealing or the like, no penalty was enforced on such an one. However, to Paul, it was this commandment that proved to him that his heart was not right with God even though he performed all the visible and outward duties of the law:
"…for I had not known [Gk: ‘would not have known’] lust, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet" (Rom. 7:7).
So lusting and coveting that which is not legal, is a sin, but it carried no penalty in Ancient Israel. But before a man ever steals, or ever commits adultery with another man’s wife, he first covets, and that is a sin and the precursor to additional sins. But is it man's will that does the coveting? Can man's will, will NOT to covet? Is man's "will" the problem? No, no, it is NOT.

SIN BEGINS IN THE HEART
Man’s mind is not the birthplace of sin. And certainly man’s will is not the originator of sin. God did NOT say: "O that there were such a WILL in them..." (Deut. 5:29). If we will just believe, our Lord tells us plainly where sin originates:
"And Jesus said, Are ye [all of you] also yet without understanding?
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth FROM THE HEART; and they defile the man.
For out of THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man" (Matt. 15:16-20).
Need I remind any that all of the above thoughts and deeds are sin?
So what pray tell does all this stuff have to do with Mother Eve’s sin in the garden? A lot—everything. The Apostle John classifies all sins into just three categories under one heading.

LOVE NOT THE WORLD—THREE CATEGORIES OF SIN

"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. For [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,
1.   the lust of the FLESH,
2.   the lust of the EYES,
3.   and the pride of LIFE,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever" (I John 2:15-17).

Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!

Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.

Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."
"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:

1.   "…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)

and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:
2.   "…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)

and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:
3.   "…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)

Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: M_Oliver on September 15, 2007, 10:35:12 PM: Quote from: Falconn003 on September 15, 2007, 08:51:58 PM
"...but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16).

go figure
Rodger

Can anyone provide two Scriptures that prove someone accomplished this?
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: YellowStone on September 15, 2007, 11:01:16 PM: Hi M,

There has only ever been one man who achieved what Paul writes about, and that man is Jesus Christ. Even Paul fell woefull short.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Yet, even with this said. I believe Paul as well as many others have been able to walk in the Spirit and not fullfill the lusts of the flesh. Of course I might be reading this wrong, but I am thinking it means not seeing something and wishing it was yours. Not sure if anyone could stop being appreciative of a nice new car, home, etc. But would not the lusts of flesh being fulfilled involve stealing the item or something simililar, like destroying the item; for if one could not have it, neither would anyone else. So if my understanding is correct, I would think one has a good chance of fulfilling Gal 5:16.

Just my opinion, if any feel I am wrong, please no flaming.

Love in Christ,
Darren
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: M_Oliver on September 15, 2007, 11:09:20 PM: Quote from: Falconn003 on September 15, 2007, 11:03:01 PM
Hmmmmmm How about reading the Life of Jesus the Chrsit who set the Pattern for us all to follow....simple enough even for babes to understand.

Yes, but WHO has accomplished it?

Mark

PS: Besides Christ of course...
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: M_Oliver on September 15, 2007, 11:23:49 PM: Quote from: Falconn003 on September 15, 2007, 11:03:01 PM
Hmmmmmm How about reading the Life of Jesus the Chrsit who set the Pattern for us all to follow....simple enough even for babes to understand.

Mark 10:18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Gen 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

((there were actually 2 TREES in the middle of the garden: the tree of God and Evil and the Tree of Life. And then there were the other trees))

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

((now this is an interesting parable, although ODD that Eve sees the TREE (was) GOOD. Eve had not yet eaten the FRUIT. but already KNOWS GOOD. SIN was indeed commited before even one bite had taken place.))

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

food for thought
Rodger

It is your understanding that to "know good" is a sin?

Mark
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: dawnnnny on September 15, 2007, 11:50:36 PM: I would like to ask 56,242 questions to everyone on this forum. ;D ;D ;D

I know that's just impatience. The funny thing is, getting an answer from a forum member isn't going to put it into my spirit/heart. That comes from God in His time. So I fully understand wanting to ask the questions. Its taken everything for me NOT to do it. ;D ;D ;D but I know getting to those conclusions "by way of the Spirit" is the best way...the only way!
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: M_Oliver on September 16, 2007, 12:00:00 AM: Quote from: Falconn003 on September 15, 2007, 11:26:59 PM
However we all still being created in his Image will eventualy overcome all lust and enemies of the Spirit including the last enemy DEATH and brought to the fullness of Jesus the Christ.

Does " will eventually overcome all lust" happen during our physical life? That is the reality I am trying to get to know.

Mark
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: M_Oliver on September 16, 2007, 12:07:37 AM: Quote from: Falconn003 on September 15, 2007, 11:26:59 PM
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

For the WAGES of SIN is DEATH

Come to your own conclusions on knowing good, i came to mine by way of the Spirit, my treasures i keep in heaven ;)

and with this i will take my bow and exit stage rite fore the flamin starts......................

Good AND evil. Do you see what I mean? When we really pay attention to the words it works to say the sin was to know evil...AND evil. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: YellowStone on September 16, 2007, 12:14:26 AM: Quote from: Dawn on September 15, 2007, 11:50:36 PM
I would like to ask 56,242 questions to everyone on this forum. ;D ;D ;D

I know that's just impatience. The funny thing is, getting an answer from a forum member isn't going to put it into my spirit/heart. That comes from God in His time. So I fully understand wanting to ask the questions. Its taken everything for me NOT to do it. ;D ;D ;D but I know getting to those conclusions "by way of the Spirit" is the best way...the only way!

Hi Dawn, :)

While it is true that Christ said: "Ask and you shall recieve"

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

I am not sure that Christ meant that God sends a special carrier angel to you and hands you the answer on a silver platter. :) Well if he does, that explains my ignorance still :D

God has always opened doors of opportunity for me. I know this as a sad but true fact. For looking back I can see many times I walked by something because I was to afraid or too uncertain. Oh sure, it was God's will that I do so, but it was also so that I might learn. Please ask the first of your 56,242 questions and I am sure that you will find an answer that meshes well with the Spirit within you. God has brought you hear for a reason my dear sister. I would ask you to not sit back and wait, rather I would hope that you search out the truthful answers to your many questions right here. After all, Christ said SEEK and asking and being patient right here within the forum is an excellent place to start.

Oh and I promise I will NEVER make you look small and ridicule you and I will defend your right to ask. This forum is title Bible - Truths for a reason; truth can be found here :)

Love to you in Christ,

Your borther,
Darren
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: dawnnnny on September 16, 2007, 12:33:43 AM: Darren thank you for your encouragement!

I guess I feel like I should get through the rest of the material on the BT website first, since a lot of those questions will be addressed there. But it won't be long before I throw out one or two. :)

I'm glad I have a place to safely ask too.

Thank you again!
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 16, 2007, 04:17:55 AM: Greetings Mark,
I still haven't figured out how this quote thing works, but you say, "Good AND evil. Do you see what I mean? When we really pay attention to the words it works to say the sin was to know evil...AND evil. Am I wrong?"
I think that's a good question. I just recently came across what I believe to be the answer. Read Rom.7:7-14. When I consider this text in frame of the commandment God gave in Gen.2:16,17 the answer becomes evident (vs.13 But sin, that it might appear sin...become exceedingly sinful). I agree with the previous text in Romans as well as Gen.6:5, Mt.15:19. This leads me to ask the question, why did satan have to tempt Eve in order to give sin opportunity? Perhaps because in Gen. 2:16 God said they could freely eat of all the trees (except the tree of knowledge of good and evil). This would lead me to wonder if both Adam and Eve weren't already partaking of the tree of life, only didn't know what they had till it was gone, and then they had something to compare it to. It reminds me of the verse in Mt.10:39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." Satan had to personally tempt Jesus in the wilderness too, only this time because Jesus walked perfectly in the Spirit, as he was already well aware of (knowledge of) good and evil, but without sin in his heart.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: hillsbororiver on September 16, 2007, 10:37:40 AM: Quote from: M_Oliver on September 16, 2007, 12:00:00 AM
Quote from: Falconn003 on September 15, 2007, 11:26:59 PM
However we all still being created in his Image will eventualy overcome all lust and enemies of the Spirit including the last enemy DEATH and brought to the fullness of Jesus the Christ.

Does " will eventually overcome all lust" happen during our physical life? That is the reality I am trying to get to know.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Do I believe that we will overcome all lust/coveting/etc. while in our flesh?

No.

We will be tested (tried) our entire time in the flesh, we will become more and more able to resist temptation (through Him) as we grow (in Spirit) and mature but we will not be perfected until the resurrection.

Read what James writes here, the implication is that lust will rear its ugly head and if we embrace this lust it culminates in sin, while maybe not actually physically doing the act if we hold it (lust) dear it is the same as doing it.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This burdon and tribulation of falling to the things we have learned to hate will be a struggle until our final breath.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I am not aware of any NT writer who made the claim of being sinless in the flesh, quite the opposite, we all will have a "thorn in the flesh of some sort until we finish the race, enduring all the while.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Don't be discouraged when these things present themselves, whatever particular weakness any of us may have (multiple choices for me) the victory is assured if we remain faithful, we all know that Paul lamented over his failings too but he never gave up his faith or running of the race.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: DuluthGA on September 16, 2007, 02:21:23 PM: "God has brought you here for a reason ..... This forum is titled Bible-Truths for a reason; truth can be found here."

Darren...Amen, bro. Let it be so!

"Oh and I promise I will NEVER make you look small and ridicule you and I will defend your right to ask."

Cool beans bro. Good spirit!! ;)

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

:)
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on September 16, 2007, 05:55:10 PM: Hello Rodger

I can see how much I DON'T KNOW when I read your posts. I feel like the disciples who asked Jesus to explain the parable of the farmer and the seeds.

Please share what you see with this blind child.

Is it US, humanity who are represented by the tree of good and evil because nothing we do is good and only the Spirit of God who lives in us by His Grace is the Divine influence on our hearts?

Are all the other trees in the garden those people who are in the world? The others nations, peoples and religions, tribes, cultures and belief systems.

The tree of Life and of Good and Evil in the middle of the garden is that the middle of the world when we get surrounded on all sides with oppression then like Shadrach Meshack and Abed-nego in the furnace we walk with Christ?

Please share more....

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Harryfeat on September 16, 2007, 06:21:43 PM: Hello Arcturus,

I don't know about anyone else's interpretation, but here is one that I think fits with Romans 7 pretty well as it talks about sin being at the heart of man.

Adam and Eve were created with sinful hearts. The didn't know they were sinning. In fact Eve didn't know she had sinned with lust of the fruit until she actually ate the fruit and gained the knowledge that she had sinned.

-the tree of life represents spritual life, symbolic of Christ [righteous heart of man]
-the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents the law. also death through sin.[sinful heart of man]
-the trees are both located at the center or heart of the garden.

With the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve gained the knowledge that they had sinned and of their sinful heart , it also brought about spiritual death as promised.

the fruit of the tree of life will provide spiritual life, a heart of righteousness through Christ.

I haven't really thought much about what the other trees might represent. Perhaps someone else might have some ideas.

That's just one view. I would also like to hear more.

be blessed
feat
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on September 18, 2007, 05:36:40 PM: Hello Rodger

Apologies for the late responce. THANK YOU for your post elaborating on the Scriptures. :)

I find your following statement very compelling and thought provoking. Quote : A Spiritual enlightened work in progress, could the 1st part be the creation of flesh, and the 2nd part an in depth look at the creation of a living soul's Spiritual strife....Unquote

Y-E-S it could!

Dazzling! We know that this is supported in the Word of God. Quoting Ray from http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD

[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).

[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).

[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).

The sequence of God’s plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.

Rodger, I get the distinct impression that you know much more than you are letting on! Pondering thoughts with accessable fellowships is surely the way to discovering HIS Truths with the safety of council and like minded enthusiasts who also desire to know the Truth and only the Truth.

The benefits from your exchange of thoughts or any exchange of thoughts seeking more substance or evaluation, makes others think! That, I believe is a most positive constructive result and work that has to progress!

1 Tim 4:8 For physical training is of some value, useful for a little,but godliness, spiritual training is useful and of value in EVERYTHING and in EVERY WAY, for it holds promise for the present life and also for The Life which is to come. ;D 8)

Peace to you Brother

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on September 18, 2007, 06:44:14 PM: Decisions decisions ;D :D
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 18, 2007, 07:25:36 PM: Greetings Rodger,
You said, "In the 1st part man is permitted to eat of all the trees. no exceptions" when actually there are exceptions attatched.
Gen 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
The condition attached is that the tree must contain fruit that yields seed. Perhaps the fruit on the tree of knowledge of good and evil contains no seed? Not sure what that implies exactly, but something to consider.
G.
Copied from a link from Google:
GRADE: Fifth

CONTENT STANDARD: Life Science

CONTENT TOPIC: Plants

CONCEPT: Plants have complex structures with specialized functions.

CONTENT OBJECTIVE: 5F1.00 To understand the characteristics of seed bearing and non-seed bearing plants

There are two groups of seed bearing plants. One group of seed bearing plants has cones. These are called gymnosperms. Their seeds are called cones. The conifers are one large group of gymnosperms. This group supplies wood and wood products. They keep their leaves year round. Some examples are pines, redwood, fir, spruce, and cypress. (Show examples on pictures, posters, or plants that are gymnosperms.) The other group of seed bearing plants is called angiosperms. This group supplies beauty, cloth, wood, medicine and food. They lose their leaves each year. Some examples are tulips, wheat, rice, cotton, tomatoes and many others. These plants have flowers. (Show examples on pictures, posters, or plants that are angiosperms.)
Seed bearing plants have chlorophyll. They make their own food by the process called photosynthesis. (Review photosynthesis: Plants use the sun, water, carbon dioxide, and energy combine to make sugar and oxygen.) They have tubes for water.

How many of you have changed since you were born? (pause) Do plants go through changes after the seeds are planted? (response) Today we are going to talk about the different life cycles of different kinds of plants.
All organisms have life cycles. A plant's life cycle includes its germination, growth, production of new plants, and death. Different kinds of plants have different life cycles. Some plants have a short life cycle; others have a longer one. Annuals are plants that begin as seeds, grow, and die within one year or one growing season. Some examples are corn, beans, marigolds and zinnias. Biennials are plants that complete these life cycle in two years or two growing seasons. The first year, these plants will have roots, stems and leaves. The second year, they will grow flowers and form fruit and seeds. The plant will die after the second year. Some examples are beets, strawberries and hollyhocks. The third group of plants is called perennials. Perennials live more than two years before their life cycle is complete. At the end of each growing season, a part of the plant will remain alive in a bulb or in the roots. The leaves and stems will die on some plants, on other plants even the stems will remain. Some examples are tulips, daisies, lilies and trees.

Today we are going to learn about some plants that do not have flowers or cones. They are called non-seed bearing plants.
Non-seed bearing plants reproduce without seeds. They produce spores instead. Spores are tiny reproductive cells that grow into new plants. One plant may make millions of spores. Ferns are one type of seedless plant. The spores of ferns grow on the underside of the leaves. Ferns have transport tubes to carry food and water.
Moss is another type of seedless plant. The spores of a moss form in a capsule on top of a small stalk. Mosses do not have transport systems or veins, instead food and water move from cell to cell.
Fungi is another type of seedless plant. Fungi has no chlorophyll and depends on other organisms.
Algae is another type of non-seed plant. Algae produce their own food. Algae are grouped by color. Green scum can be seen growing on the surface of a pond.

And from Wikpedia:

Reproduction
Plants can propagate through both sexual and asexual reproduction. Many plants can generate a genetic clone through a process called vegetative reproduction, which does not involve meiosis, gamete formation, or fertilization. This type of propagation involves the development of shoots and roots from a number of tissues such as stems, roots, and leaves. Many crops, grasses, and trees are developed using this type of cloning instead of by seed. Examples include Potatoes, Bananas, Aspen, Poplar, Willow, Strawberry, Avocado, Fig, Pineapple, citrus fruits (Lemon, Orange, Grapefruit), nut crops (Walnut, Pecan), and pome fruits (Apple, Pear).

Sexual reproduction begins through pollination. Pollination happens when the pollen (male gamete) comes in contact with the stigma (female organ) of the same or a different flower. Pollen transport is accomplished either by drifting in the wind or being carried to another flower by insects, such as bees. After pollination the pollen grain germinates, then begin to grow a pollen tube down the style, through the wall of the ovary and into an ovule (incipient seed). As the pollen tube grows, two sperm are produced - one unites with female gamete, the other unites with the central cell of the ovule and produces the endosperm of the seed.

Growth
Unlike most animals and humans, plants continue to grow as long as they live. They can also be defined as functionally immortal. Although many have adapted to annual lifecycles where necessary, all types of plants grow as perennials where conditions allow, and only die as a result of trauma, pathogenicity, or when their basic requirements for life are not met.

Plants have the unique ability to grow in specific directions as a response to a number of external stimuli. This phenomena is known as a tropism, which can be a positive or negative growth. For example, the response of plants to gravity (geotropism), is positive/toward the stimulus in roots, and negative in the stems where growth is in the opposite direction. Plant shoots are stimulated to grow toward sunlight (phototropism). Hydrotropism is a response to water, chemotropism to a chemical stimulus, and thigmotropism is a response to physical contact, which causes tendrils of climbing plants to grow when they touch a support and then grow around it.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Kat on September 18, 2007, 07:46:24 PM: Hi Rodger,

My post was not meant as an admonishment, but was intended to show you that bit of the conference audio, that you may not have seen.
I've been reading your posts with interest. Thanks for sharing your insights :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: hillsbororiver on September 18, 2007, 10:37:42 PM: Quote from: Falconn003 on September 18, 2007, 05:54:41 PM

basicaly what i was going to get too, before i was stopped in my train of thought, by those who fear the thinking process of the Spirit.

I do however continue too invest my TALENT, with family, friends and in a PMs avenue of Fellowship with like minds.

No intentions of stirring awake nor upsetting anyone who is satisfied with thier buried TALENTS in life.

Quote from: Falconn003 on September 18, 2007, 09:55:44 PM

This is a QUESTION i was trying to elaborate when i felt the rug pull from under me.

Please note if this is upsetting to some i have no problem stopping and withdrawing from this thread !!

Rodger,

Is this incessent in your face confrontational style really necessary? We should be able to exchange thoughts, ideas and questions without the leaven of adding our personal frustrations. Does patience, peace, longsuffering and brotherly kindness only apply to some?

We have discussed this before and it is my hope we can edify and encourage each other here, I do not see these type of comments as particularly encouraging or edifying, in fact just the opposite.

There is no doubt that you raise some good points and have for the entire time I have known you but as Paul states;

1 Corinthians 13

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

We are all aware that Jesus spoke with sarcasm and scathing rebukes to the hypocritical religious leaders and Pharisees but He did not do this to those who earnestly sought wisdom without guile or an ulterior motive, I see no guile or ulterior motives presented by those who have been responding here in this thread. Please do not take a request for clarification as a personal challenge to be defensive or accusational about.

Please.

His Peace to you,

Joe
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 18, 2007, 11:58:40 PM: Greetings Rodger,
I don't want to appear to be "pulling the rug out from under you." In fact, I think you're on to something here. I just think that there may be more meaning than we're noticing. And there is a difference in the trees which produce fruit, and ones which produce fruit with seeds. Although there may be different types of fruit, I find it interesting that each has a very different means of reproduction, lifespan, and even a different process for feeding ie photosynthesis. When applying the method of looking at types in the scriptures, I can see many parallels. One being photosynthesis - the means of producing food by way of light, Jesus being our light, spiritual food. I don't have time to really explain more, but thought you may want to look a little deeper. In any case, I don't feel threatened or offended in any way, and really enjoy studying the story of Adam and Eve. I have many questions myself, just not the time at the moment. One theory you may want to look into is the Jewish tradition of story telling. I heard in church once that traditionally they would give an overview, and then go into details. Just a thought. Anyways, got to run. All the best.
G.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Falconn003 on September 19, 2007, 12:19:13 AM: Gregor

I do not think you would be jolly to pull the rug out from under me..... ;D

I do appreciate the insight you have just now posted,,,,very interesting points you bring up i did not even know,,,imagine that...yes i am human....

I especially like the parrallel comparison of Jesus our Light to the sun's light on plants.

Seems a bountiful of Spiritual insightfulness to grasp at,,,,,,,,,like gerado who opend a old tome of nothing.......am ever more cautious and but for the moment i await.

Peace and guidance
Rodger
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on September 19, 2007, 03:28:22 PM: Ahhh faith like the Mustard seed Rodger! 8)

"Each of us is an original." Last line of Galatians 5 The Message translation 8)

Many trees. One mustard seed. One Christ.

The mustard seeds begins small and grows into the tallest tree dwarfing the others and provides nesting shade and protection for any who seek refuge in rest under its mantle of greatness and generosity.

Peace and goodwill

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Redbird on September 19, 2007, 05:08:27 PM: Dear Rodger,

Thanks for posting those Genesis scriptures. This is a doublet of the bible to me. There seems to be two accounts of creation. Also, note that in Genesis 1:27, it says God created man. Then in Genesis 2:7, it says The LORD God formed man. Ray says pay attention to the words. The words are very different here. Are God and the LORD God one and the same?
Thoughts to ponder.

Hi Kat, Thank you for the audio link. I am going to listen to what Ray has to say about this too. :)

Peace, Lisa
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 19, 2007, 10:33:53 PM: Greetings,
Perhaps the point is that in the flesh, we must travail, whereas with the installment of the spirit, it is as simple as God speaking it into existance? Just as man now toils,sweats, producing thorns and thistles, and eats the herb of the field (as opposed to the fruit of the tree) when he tries to live according to the flesh, rather than the spirit. Sound like some tv ministries, or even ourselves when we take our eyes off Jesus?
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Redbird on September 19, 2007, 10:55:03 PM: Ah, Rodger,
Older and wiser my friend. :)

Dear Gregor,
Well spoken!

Peace and Love to you brothers, Lisa
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 19, 2007, 11:25:09 PM: Greetings,

I thought it might be easier to see some spiritual implications if we substituted "People" for plant(s) into this info. Keep in mind that the scriptures also refer to "pleasant to the eyes, and "good for food" as purpose relating to the trees and their fruits.

CONCEPT: "People" have complex structures with specialized functions.

CONTENT OBJECTIVE: 5F1.00 To understand the characteristics of seed bearing and non-seed bearing "People"

There are two groups of seed bearing "People." One group of seed bearing "People" has cones. These are called gymnosperms. Their seeds are called cones. The conifers are one large group of gymnosperms. This group supplies wood and wood products. They keep their leaves year round. Some examples are pines, redwood, fir, spruce, and cypress. The other group of seed bearing "People" is called angiosperms. This group supplies beauty, cloth, wood, medicine and food. They lose their leaves each year. Some examples are tulips, wheat, rice, cotton, tomatoes and many others. These "People" have flowers.
Seed bearing "People" have chlorophyll. They make their own food by the process called photosynthesis. (Review photosynthesis: "People" use the sun, water, carbon dioxide, and energy combine to make sugar and oxygen.) They have tubes for water.

How many of you have changed since you were born? (pause) Do "People" go through changes after the seeds are planted? (response) Today we are going to talk about the different life cycles of different kinds of "People".
All organisms have life cycles. A "People"s life cycle includes its germination, growth, production of new "People", and death. Different kinds of "People" have different life cycles. Some "People" have a short life cycle; others have a longer one. Annuals are "People" that begin as seeds, grow, and die within one year or one growing season. Some examples are corn, beans, marigolds and zinnias. Biennials are "People" that complete these life cycle in two years or two growing seasons. The first year, these "People" will have roots, stems and leaves. The second year, they will grow flowers and form fruit and seeds. The "People" will die after the second year. Some examples are beets, strawberries and hollyhocks. The third group of "People" is called perennials. Perennials live more than two years before their life cycle is complete. At the end of each growing season, a part of the plant will remain alive in a bulb or in the roots. The leaves and stems will die on some "People", on other "People" even the stems will remain. Some examples are tulips, daisies, lilies and trees.

Today we are going to learn about some "People" that do not have flowers or cones. They are called non-seed bearing "People".
Non-seed bearing "People" reproduce without seeds. They produce spores instead. Spores are tiny reproductive cells that grow into new "People". One plant may make millions of spores. Ferns are one type of seedless plant. The spores of ferns grow on the underside of the leaves. Ferns have transport tubes to carry food and water.
Moss is another type of seedless "People". The spores of a moss form in a capsule on top of a small stalk. Mosses do not have transport systems or veins, instead food and water move from cell to cell.
Fungi is another type of seedless "People". Fungi has no chlorophyll and depends on other organisms.
Algae is another type of non-seed "People". Algae produce their own food. Algae are grouped by color. Green scum can be seen growing on the surface of a pond.

And from Wikpedia:

Reproduction (Spiritually?)
"People" can propagate through both sexual and asexual reproduction. Many "People" can generate a genetic clone through a process called vegetative reproduction(Spiritually?), which does not involve meiosis, gamete formation, or fertilization. This type of propagation involves the development of shoots and roots from a number of tissues such as stems, roots, and leaves. Many crops, grasses, and trees are developed using this type of cloning instead of by seed. Examples include Potatoes, Bananas, Aspen, Poplar, Willow, Strawberry, Avocado, Fig, Pineapple, citrus fruits (Lemon, Orange, Grapefruit), nut crops (Walnut, Pecan), and pome fruits (Apple, Pear).

Sexual reproduction begins through pollination. Pollination happens when the pollen (male gamete) comes in contact with the stigma (female organ) of the same or a different flower. Pollen transport is accomplished either by drifting in the wind or being carried to another flower by insects, such as bees. After pollination the pollen grain germinates, then begin to grow a pollen tube down the style, through the wall of the ovary and into an ovule (incipient seed). As the pollen tube grows, two sperm are produced - one unites with female gamete, the other unites with the central cell of the ovule and produces the endosperm of the seed.

Growth(Spiritually?)
Unlike most animals and humans, "People" continue to grow as long as they live. They can also be defined as functionally immortal. Although many have adapted to annual lifecycles where necessary, all types of "People" grow as perennials where conditions allow, and only die as a result of trauma, pathogenicity, or when their basic requirements for life are not met.

"People" have the unique ability to grow in specific directions as a response to a number of external stimuli. This phenomena is known as a tropism, which can be a positive or negative growth. For example, the response of "People" to gravity (world's attraction?)(geotropism), is positive/toward the stimulus in roots, and negative in the stems where growth is in the opposite direction. "People's" shoots are stimulated to grow toward sunlight (phototropism). Hydrotropism is a response to water, chemotropism to a chemical stimulus, and thigmotropism is a response to physical contact, which causes tendrils of climbing "People" to grow when they touch a support and then grow around it.

Cool heh?
G.
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Falconn003 on September 19, 2007, 11:52:58 PM: VERY KEWL !! :)

Rodger
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on September 20, 2007, 02:59:56 AM: Yes.

"I am the true vine...." John 15:1

Our support is Christ. He is our intercessor with the Father.

Excellent exchange going on in this thread. Thank you Rodger and Gregor. I am happy this is happening in the open for us smaller plants! :D

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Redbird on September 20, 2007, 09:25:41 AM: Some scriptures to support this thread;

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Now, the good news ~ Jesus

John 15:16 You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Peace to all, Lisa
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Gregor on September 20, 2007, 03:28:22 PM: Rodger,

When we live and walk in the spirit, yes, God is indwelling and just like with Adam, we walk with God in the "Garden of God's Good Pleasure."
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on September 20, 2007, 05:23:32 PM: Last month I hit a wall in my studies and posted a question to Ray. His reply I believe fits beautifully into this thread to stimulate more photosynthesis.

Rodger grapes and olives are sour indeed until the warmth of the sun and time, they sweeten in
preparation for crushing out their juices to yield respectively oil or wine. Wine to make merry the heart and oil...well that could take a whole new direction!

I had family staying on the outskirts of Rome where civilization seemed to not have touched the village where they had their home. I became aware that in some parts of Italy, the ceremony of collecting grapes and having them crushed in huge vats under the feet of the village folks still continues! :D Not such a great end for the grape that will end as a raisin and land up in a pudding if not picked for wine!

Perhaps there are Spiritual parallels everywhere! As in life and in Nature so in One Spirit with our Creator.

I enjoyed your view Gregor, that we too walk with God as perhaps Enoch, the man who "walked with God" who was indeed one of the five great spiritual characters of the OT written for our good instruction.

Here, I believe is some more light on this precious thread. Quoting Ray....

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and the End.

Adam was flesh and blood--Jesus was made flesh and blood.

Adam was the son of God (Luke 3:38)--Jesus was the Son of God (Heb. 1:5).

Adam died--Jesus died.

All die in Adam (I Cor. 15:22)--Jesus being of Adam and made flesh also DIED.

But Jesus has been resurrected to immortality--the "last Adam."

But notice carefully that Jesus is called the "LAST" Adam,

but He is called the "SECOND" man, not the "last" man,

as there will follow many more brothers and sisters (II Cor. 6:18, etc.)

God be with you,

Ray

Peace and good will

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: ciy on September 20, 2007, 05:46:49 PM: Great post Arcturus!

This is certainly a true statement:

Perhaps there are Spiritual parallels everywhere! As in life and in Nature so in One Spirit with our Creator.

The plan of God is seen in everything from relationships to sports competition to movies (good or bad) to nature. God's plan is always evident even when evolutionist say "Survival of the fittest" they are saying, without knowing it, "Many are called, few are chosen."

Also, that is such a great observation of Ray about Jesus being the "Last Adam" but he is the "2nd Man".

God is awesome in every way.
CIY
Title: Re: appointed/ordained
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on September 20, 2007, 06:03:17 PM: Yes CIY :)

You say : The plan of God is seen in everything ...Yes and on the other hand the PLAN of God is NOT yet revealed to or known, perceived or understood by MANY. I believe it is for this reason and consequence that we live in times of great apostasy, deceptions and errors in wickedness as prophesied.

Very few see and understand with comprehensive insight the ways and purposes of God, what His Plan is. Very few know God or His power. Just look at how many believe, cling to and adhere to the damnable false teaching about eternal Hell!

1 John 4 : 16 To KNOW ( understand, recognize, be conscious of, observe, experience, believe, adhere to, put faith in and rely on ) the Love God cherishes for us.

One day we will all KNOW the Truth. That will be a most Glorious event! I believe that Christ returns to usher that in to our experience and knowledge of the Father of Righteousness when His first born Son Jesus Christ will return again! 8)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)