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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: chrissiela on June 12, 2006, 09:51:40 PM

Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 12, 2006, 09:51:40 PM
Quote
Hi,

Do you believe that ALL will be saved and that ALL people will get eternal life?

Chrsi


Dear Chrsi:

"Being saved," and "eternal life" are two entirely different things. Of course all will be saved as they are dozens of Scriptures that show this. But NO ONE will be given "eternal life," as it is nowhere promised in Scripture. What is promised is "immortality."

God be with you,

Ray


Maybe I should go back to not reading the emails because I am becomong more and more confused by statements that I am reading there.  :oops:

Can someone explain this to me? In light of these:

And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [/list:u]


And probably 20 or more other verse about "eternal life".

Is Ray saying that it is not something that is promised to eveyone? Or something that is promised for 'the future' (to all)... in light of the fact that we have it now? Does anyone know?

It is indeed promised to those who believe, though. Isn't it?

And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.[/list:u]


Chrissie
Title: Re: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: mercie on June 12, 2006, 10:03:04 PM
Quote from: chrissiela
Quote
Hi,

Do you believe that ALL will be saved and that ALL people will get eternal life?

Chrsi


Dear Chrsi:

"Being saved," and "eternal life" are two entirely different things. Of course all will be saved as they are dozens of Scriptures that show this. But NO ONE will be given "eternal life," as it is nowhere promised in Scripture. What is promised is "immortality."

God be with you,

Ray


Maybe I should go back to not reading the emails because I am becomong more and more confused by statements that I am reading there.  :oops:

Can someone explain this to me? In light of these:

    1Jo 2:25  
And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [/list:u]


And probably 20 or more other verse about "eternal life".

Is Ray saying that it is not something that is promised to eveyone? Or something that is promised for 'the future' (to all)... in light of the fact that we have it now? Does anyone know?

It is indeed promised to those who believe, though. Isn't it?

    1Jo 2:25  
And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.[/list:u]


Chrissie


Chrissie

This does look like a contradiction to what the scriptures say.

As much as one respects the teachings here at times im at loss why emails are answered like this.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.


n 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


The scripture I read and there are more make it Known that Eternal Life Is now.

Im somewhat confused again by this email , lets have patience to see what Ray has to say.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Deedle on June 12, 2006, 10:10:51 PM
It's Semantics Chrissie.

Ray is probably referring to the use of the word "eternal" instead of "eonian".

Not "eternal" life in the english dictionary sense of the word but "aionios" life in the "to know God and Jesus Christ" reality.

Most confuse "Immortal" life with "aionios / eonian / eternal / everlasting / age abiding / Strong's # 166" etc. life.

I hope that makes sense.

Deed  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 12, 2006, 10:12:14 PM
Quote from: Deedle
It's Semantics Chrissie.

Ray is probably referring to the use of the word "eternal" instead of "eonian".

Not "eternal" life in the english dictionary sense of the word but "aionios" life in the "to know God and Jesus Christ" reality.

Most confuse "Immortal" life with "aionios / eonian / eternal / everlasting / age abiding / Strong's # 166 etc. life.

I hope that makes sense.

Deed  :D


Yes, it does. Thanks.  :wink:

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: bobf on June 12, 2006, 10:14:00 PM
Ray is saying there is no such thing in scriptures as ETERNAL life, its aionion life. ETERNAL is bad translating.

EDIT: well I see Deedle already pointed this out.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 12, 2006, 10:14:46 PM
Chrissie,

I'm seeing this is Gods own record itself based on the very thing, "eternal life". Its to know God. Our hope and our desire and the perfect come.

1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.[/u]

Supposed to be "in us"

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1John 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.[/u]

There are verses that its the very record itself (gotta get them)

Perhaps Ray is speaking of eternal life in another way? I'm not too sure. Scripture shows this is the very record to be believed upon. Then ofcourse it speaks on not believing that record.

Not sure what he is talking about :?  Perhaps an honest mistake.

Peace Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 12, 2006, 10:23:02 PM
Man you guys are fast! I thought it was an honest mistake :lol:

My verses says is "eternal life", Ray translates "knowing God" as "age abiding" life.

Yes, we are given to know the Father, His love and nothing can separate us from His love. Neither life nor death for both our indeed ours in Him.

Great job deedle, clear that up before it becomes a stir :lol:

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 12, 2006, 10:25:46 PM
Quote from: bobf
Ray is saying there is no such thing in scriptures as ETERNAL life, its aionion life. ETERNAL is bad translating.

EDIT: well I see Deedle already pointed this out.


Yes, I see that now, Bob. Thanks!

I wasn't even thinking of that... already understanding what "eternal life" is. To me, though, his statment is confusing. Because those who DO NOT know what "eternal life" is will call him a liar (as it is plainly stated as "eternal life" in many translations) and even those who DO know what it is (like me) might overlook what he is saying/meaning.

If he has mentioned "aionios" it might have made his answer a bit clearer. As he does acknowledge that most use the KJV - as does he (for this very reason) in his articles.

Had I thought about it longer perhaps it would have come to me, but I couldn't for the life of me (pun intended :wink: ) figure out what he meant by that.  :oops:

Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 12, 2006, 10:26:49 PM
Yes, I believe Deedle has it, eternal comes to us from the middle English by way of middle French originating from late Latin. One of the primary definitions is "of infinite duration" only One can make that claim, without beginning, without end.

In faith we can all claim eventual immortality, never again to die.

Joe
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 12, 2006, 10:29:03 PM
Not trying to cause a 'stir'...  :oops:

Chrissie

(I know that's not what you were saying, Daniel, just want to be clear anyway.)  :wink:
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 12, 2006, 10:46:43 PM
Chrissie,

I apologize, no I was not meaning you hon. Its just when speaking of these things can cause a ruckus, if not caught on time :lol:  I was confused myself most honestly.

"Eternal life" (or the "other words" ) one of which Rays chooses to use (Aionion life) Should equal the same thing. In truth what it is (despite words) Is simply "to know Him".  :D

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Deedle on June 12, 2006, 10:55:46 PM
Quote
"Eternal life" (or the "other words" ) one of which Rays chooses to use (Aionion life) Should equal the same thing. In truth what it is (despite words) Is simply "to know Him".  


Amen and Amen!

 :D

Deed
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: longhorn on June 13, 2006, 03:13:00 AM
Deedle, You da man.... :)  :)
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Lightseeker on June 13, 2006, 04:50:47 PM
Quote from: [b]bobf[/b]
Ray is saying there is no such thing in scriptures as ETERNAL life, its aionion life. ETERNAL is bad translating.

EDIT: well I see Deedle already pointed this out.


Actually there is such a thing in scripture, but it isn't the word aionios / eonian or any deriviative thereof.  The Greek for for eternity as we define it is AIDIOS.  It's only used twice in scripture, once in Rom 1:20 and once in Jude 1:6.  
0126 aidios: everduring (forward and backward, or forward only)

Joe,

Quote
In faith we can all claim eventual immortality, never again to die.


If we can all claim it in faith then what does it mean to you in Romans 2:7 where it tells us to seek it?  If seeking is the faith issue, and we forsake the faith...then do we loose it?  But if we all get it anyway, then why the need for 'seeking' or 'faith' to begin with?  What do you think?
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 13, 2006, 05:27:18 PM
Hi Lightseeker,

I used to believe too that AIDIOS was indeed the Greek word for "eternal" or "everlasting". It isn't. "AIDIOS" actually means "imperceptible" (somthing that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive), and does not mean what our modern english word "eternal" means. Different concept all together.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [AIDIOS...better translated "imperceptible"] chains under darkness UNTO[UNTIL] the judgment of the great day.

If AIDIOS meant "everlasting", then there could be no "UNTO/UNTIL" in this verse :)

God Bless,
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Harryfeat on June 13, 2006, 05:46:19 PM
Maybe a cite from Strongs dictionary will help here.


G126
ἀΐ́διος
aidios
ah-id'-ee-os
From G104; everduring (forward and backward, or foward only): - eternal, everlasting.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 13, 2006, 06:15:06 PM
Quote from: jerreye
Hi Lightseeker,

I used to believe too that AIDIOS was indeed the Greek word for "eternal" or "everlasting". It isn't. "AIDIOS" actually means "imperceptible" (somthing that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive), and does not mean what our modern english word "eternal" means. Different concept all together.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [AIDIOS...better translated "imperceptible"] chains under darkness UNTO[UNTIL] the judgment of the great day.

If AIDIOS meant "everlasting", then there could be no "UNTO/UNTIL" in this verse :)

God Bless,
Jeremy


Wow Jeremy thank you for posting this. I knew it had nothing to do with length of days. I knew it meant to know God as the verse itself gives its own definition. But I thought on the definition you posted of its "direct meaning" in itself (aside from the verses definition).You show it by a straight on definition by itself (which I never heard before)

You wrote

Quote
that ADIOS which is given to us is something that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive


even imperceptible

That sounds alot like this simply in itself (described elsewhere)

1Cr 1:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, "the things" which God hath prepared for them that love him.[/u]

1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.[/u]


Thanks for posting that Jeremy, I love catching those things even i the definitions themselves :D

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Lightseeker on June 14, 2006, 12:33:45 PM
Quote from: jerreye
Hi Lightseeker,

I used to believe too that AIDIOS was indeed the Greek word for "eternal" or "everlasting". It isn't. "AIDIOS" actually means "imperceptible" (somthing that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive), and does not mean what our modern english word "eternal" means. Different concept all together.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [AIDIOS...better translated "imperceptible"] chains under darkness UNTO[UNTIL] the judgment of the great day.



God Bless,
Jeremy


Jeremy,

Something new to think about I guess.  That definition does change things.  What is your source for that definition?
Quote

If AIDIOS meant "everlasting", then there could be no "UNTO/UNTIL" in this verse :)


Wouldn't another POV still work here?  The fact that the 'chains are everlasting' doesn't mean that they can't be released...does it?  I mean does the fact that our God is a consuming fire mean that fire will go out when all rebellion and evil works are burned up???  See what I mean.  Don't know but just a thought.

Harryfeat,

My original def. was from Strong's...but I just gave the abbreviated essence.  That's just the way my program lists it.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 14, 2006, 05:29:36 PM
Hi Daniel,

Your welcome :)

I am glad that you posted that piece of scripture...

1Cr 1:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen [perceived], nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, "the things" which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Couple that with the following verse and we can better understand what this word "Aidios" means:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal ["AIDIOS"...IMPERCEPTIBLE] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

What does "Eternal Power" mean, anyway? Who knows! It doesn't really make too much sense to me. However, IMPERCEPTIBLE POWER does make sense to me...Eye has NOT SEEN!

God Bless,

Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 14, 2006, 05:43:43 PM
Hi Lightseeker,

If something is truly "everlasting", then that essentially means it WILL never and CAN never end. Otherwise it wouldn't really be "EVERlasting", it would be "AGElasting". See what I mean?

Here is the Concordant Literal NT rendering of Jude 1:6

Jude 1:6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day.

Look at Romans 1:20:

Romans 1:20 For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless.

The KJ has "Eternal power". What makes more sense..."imperceptible power", or "eternal power"? We know God is powerful, but we are really unable to truly PERCEIVE its magnitude. It is imperceptible for us humans to perceive His true power.

But I totally see where you are at right now with that word...I was there about a year ago when I posted a message stating my beliefs (at the time) that ADIOS means "everlasting". I was mistaken.

God bless!
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 14, 2006, 05:56:05 PM
Quote from: jerreye
Hi Daniel,

Your welcome :)

I am glad that you posted that piece of scripture...

1Cr 1:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen [perceived], nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, "the things" which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Couple that with the following verse and we can better understand what this word "Aidios" means:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal ["AIDIOS"...IMPERCEPTIBLE] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

What does "Eternal Power" mean, anyway? Who knows! It doesn't really make too much sense to me. However, IMPERCEPTIBLE POWER does make sense to me...Eye has NOT SEEN!

God Bless,

Jeremy


Yes Jeremy amen! The very next verse verse says God has revealed this very thing!

1Cr 1:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, "the things" which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

He is good! :D

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 15, 2006, 12:17:49 AM
Amen Daniel :)

The carnal man will NEVER perceive God's true nature and power. But by His SPIRIT, all things are possible!

God Bless,

Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Lightseeker on June 15, 2006, 12:51:14 AM
Jerreye
Quote
Hi Lightseeker,

If something is truly "everlasting", then that essentially means it WILL never and CAN never end. Otherwise it wouldn't really be "EVERlasting", it would be "AGElasting". See what I mean?

jerreye,

Yes, I do see what you mean.  And when the word aionian and aionios are used your understanding up above applies IMO.  But when the Gr. word aidios is the Greek word use then I believe the interpretation of 'eternal' as we define eternity truly does apply.

Quote
Here is the Concordant Literal NT rendering of Jude 1:6
 I asked you for the source of your opinion and I assume from the above that it's the Concordant translation...which is a very good one...but certainly not infallible.  I looked in my copy of BAUER ARNDT GINGRICH's Greek English lexicon of the NT.  They go back into the writings of that day to determine definitions of a word.  This particular word was used in the writings of  several other authors and this source says the defintion of 'ETERNAL' is the correct definition.

The word aidios also is a derivative of the Greek word aei which in Strongs  is defined as (continued duration); "ever;" by qualification regularly; by impl. earnestly  
And my Greek lexicon translates aei as 'always'.  So if you're still comfortable with defining it the way you are because of the CLT, that's OK with me.  I'll stick with what I feel are better sources IMO.  I hope that's OK with you.  :D
 
Quote
But I totally see where you are at right now with that word...I was there about a year ago when I posted a message stating my beliefs (at the time) that ADIOS means "everlasting". I was mistaken.

Maybe you were and maybe you weren't.  :wink:

Quote
God bless!
Jeremy


Same to you Bro.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 15, 2006, 01:16:23 AM
Hey Lightseeker,

Actually I don't get my opinion from the Concordant. I just used it to show that this word IS translated imperceptible in "a" literal translation (one of the best mind you). I DID, however, get my opinion from the scriptures (regardless of translation). Jude 1:6 proves that this word cannot mean everlasting.

To say that these messengers are in EVERLASTING chains, and in the very same breath, say that it is only UNTIL a specific point in time (the judgment) is a self-evident contradiction. I am not about to start believing in scriptural contradictions.

I certainly don't condemn you for your opinion, however :)

God Bless,
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Harryfeat on June 15, 2006, 10:31:39 AM
Quote from: jerreye
Hey Lightseeker,

I DID, however, get my opinion from the scriptures (regardless of translation). Jude 1:6 proves that this word cannot mean everlasting.



God Bless,
Jeremy


 If you are getting your opinion regardless of translation then I assume you must be reading in the original greek. I wonder if this might have been the same process that was used to create the vulgate.

I got the impression that the word "mighty" or  "unseen"  and several other words could fit in addition to "imperceptible. "  Is there a different greek word that actually translates to imperceptible?

I don't deny you your opinion of course and indeed I respect it.  I just find it scary for me to walk a high wire without a safety net.  I can't read greek so I must rely on others' translations and reliable dictionaries.  I can see now that this kind of reliance might somehow be misplaced.


feat


ps Lightseeker Sorry, It wasn't clear to me,  the source of your definition.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 15, 2006, 11:29:29 AM
Maybe it would be better (or clearer) to say that we are not promised "eternal life", we are promised "aionios life"..... it was the exchange of "eternal life" for "immortality" that threw me off.... not quite an 'even exchange'... as it addresses two different words from the scriptures..... though BOTH come by and through Jesus Christ.


Chrissie

Good discussion on the words, though.  :D  Now I don't feel so bad for being confused.  :wink:
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Harryfeat on June 15, 2006, 12:05:21 PM
Quote from: chrissiela
Maybe it would be better (or clearer) to say that we are not promised "eternal life", we are promised "aionios life"..... it was the exchange of "eternal life" for "immortality" that threw me off.... not quite an 'even exchange'... as it addresses two different words from the scriptures..... though BOTH come by and through Jesus Christ.


Chrissie

Good discussion on the words, though.  :D  Now I don't feel so bad for being confused.  :wink:


Hello Chrissie,


Isn't  immortality virtually the same as eternal life.  If not, are they significantly different, how?  That is the difficulty with changing words to fit what would be more meaningful.  If we are promised immortality, why would it only be age abiding life translated elswhere.    It seems that for the bible not to contradict that eternal life must be what was meant even though a different greek word was used.

I agree that Ray's response was confusing at best.  If I didn't know better I would think he was playing word games with my mind.  

feat
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 15, 2006, 12:22:23 PM
From "Is Everlasting Scriptural?"

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."

The Interpreter’s Dictionry of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life," then "age," "lifetime."

Elliot’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios—it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).

Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):

The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.)

The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as ‘forever,’ means in itself no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean ‘from eternity’ but ‘of old’ Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)

Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.

Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting.’ Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.

Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are ‘endless’ does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant ‘endless;’ and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."



In Dr. Farrar’s book, Mercy and Judgment, (p. 378), "Since aion meant ‘age,’ aionios means, properly, ‘belonging to an age,’ or ‘age-long,’ and anyone who asserts that it must mean ‘endless’ defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant ‘eternity,’ which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek—aionios could still mean only ‘belonging to eternity’ and not ‘lasting through it."

The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, (Vol. 4, p. 641), "The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the concept of eternity as timelessness." Page 655: "The O.T. has not developed a special term for eternity." Page 645: "The use of the word aion in the N.T. is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means long, distant, uninterrupted time. The intensifying plural occurs frequently in the N.T. but it adds no new meaning."

Dr. Edward Plumptre, an eschatologist, "I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited."

Time and Eternity by G. T. Stevenson, (p. 63), "Since, as we have seen, the noun aion refers to a period of time it appears, very improbable that the derived adjective aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term."

Professor Herman Oldhausen, German Lutheran theologian, "The Bible has no expression for endlessness. All the Biblical terms imply or denote long periods."

Professor Knappe of Halle wrote, "The Hebrew was destitute of any single word to express endless duration. The pure idea of eternity is NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THE ANCIENT LANGUAGES." (CAPS emphasis are mine).

An Alphabetical Analysis by Charles H. Welch (Editor of The Berean Expositor and a man well versed in Greek), (Vol. 1, p. 279), "Eternity is not a Biblical theme." (Vol. 1, p. 52), "What we have to learn is that the Bible does not speak of eternity. It is not written to tell us of eternity. Such a consideration is entirely outside the scope of revelation."



The Complete Works of Falvius Josephus. Josephus obviously did not consider anionios to be "everlasting," seeing that he uses the word to represent the period of time between the giving of the law of Moses and that of his own writing [clearly not an eternity]. He also assigns aionios to the period of imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans [clearly he was not imprisoned for an eternity], and also for the period during which Herod’s temple stood [since Herod’s temple was not even standing at the time Josephus wrote, it too proves that Josephus did not mean ‘eternity’ when he wrote ‘aionios’].

Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of anionios diastema, "an eonian interval." How many intervals do you know of that are "endless" or "eternal?"

Saint Chrysostum, in his homily on Eph. 2:1-3, says that, "Satan’s kingdom is aeonian; that is, it will cease with the present world."

Saint Justin Martyr, in the Apol. (p. 57), used the word aionios repeadedly: aionion kolasin…all ouchi chiliontaete periodon, "eonian chastening but a period, not a thousand years," or as some translate this clause "but a period of a thousand years only." Hence, to Justin Martyr, aionios was certainly not "endless."

To read the entire article go here;

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 15, 2006, 12:23:29 PM
Feat,

This is only as *I* see it… not sure exactly how Ray sees it… ok?

Do I see immortality and eternal life as the same thing? Yes! In that I see them BOTH as Christ. Christ ONLY has immortality and this mortal must “put on� IMMORTALITY, right? I see this as being ‘clothed’ with Christ.

And what do the scriptures say about “eternal life�?


this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jo 5:10-11  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.  11  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[/list:u]

I see this as something that we have NOW…. If we have the Son. See what I mean?

Now, why I said it would have been ‘better’ to say it differently is because of the first verse that I quoted:

this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.[/list:u]

So we are, in this verse of scripture, PROMISED “eternal life� (or aionios life)…. “Eternal life� (or aionios life) IS the “promise�… I cannot find a “promise� of “immortality�, per say…. Just that this mortal must “put on� immortality. But really BOTH come by and through the Son.

See what I mean?

Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Harryfeat on June 15, 2006, 12:48:33 PM
I understand what you mean.  You are right on!

I was painting the picture that if you can change a greek word meaning eternal to mean imperceptible, how far off is it to call aonian life eternal life.

In fact, that's what was done in the latin translation.    Was it not?

Thanks for that article.  I plan to read it.  

feat
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 15, 2006, 01:12:45 PM
There is a difference between immortal and eternal, if God were to create an immortal creature today, he would not be "eternal" only the Father is eternal "without beginning, without end" eternal means to have always existed when using it in relation to God.

Back to this verse;

1Jo 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal166 life, (KJV)

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os

Rotherham's version;

1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise unto us, The age abiding life.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 15, 2006, 02:05:02 PM
Yes Joe, I am not arguing against that.

I only said that they were the "same" IN THAT they both come by and through Jesus Christ... not that they could necessarily be used interchangeably (which is the very reason that the reply confused me).

The promise, to which you and I both reference from the same verse of scripture, is for aionios life. Right? Not "athanasia" (which means deathlessness or immortality)?

Do all receive immortality?
Do all receive eternal life?

While surely we have an implied promise of immortality (or deathlessness), even though it is not expressly stated... there is an expressed promise that is made "to us" of eternal/aionios/age-abiding life….

So it was a bit confusing, at first, to read:

Quote
But NO ONE will be given "eternal life," as it is nowhere promised in Scripture. What is promised is "immortality."


Even though the word is improperly translated the promise is there and it is for eternal/aionios/age-abiding life… and not immortality (as expressly stated).

Now maybe Ray addressed the implied promise of immortality because the question was will ALL be saved and will ALL receive eternal life.

And the answer, then, may be that while not all receive the promise of eternal/aionios/age-abiding life, ALL will receive immortality.

It was just confusing… the mixing of the two when, as you say, they are not the same and yet the there is a promise of both (one expressly made to some and one implied to all)….

I’m sorry I found the answer confusing, but I did. That’s why I asked. And I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I don’t think that I am stupid or at all unfamiliar with the scriptures. So if I found it confusing I would be willing to bet that others did as well.

I hope that the discussion over it, here, might help clear up any confusion that may have existed.

I’m certainly not trying to ADD to it.  :oops:

Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 15, 2006, 02:41:39 PM
Chrissie,

I understand your point, sometimes things (for me) are not very easily understood. At times I become my own stumbling block, especially when my in my zeal for understanding His Word borders on hyperactivity. That is my problem at times, often I feel like a kid in an amusement park, wanting to run off in 20 directions at the same time because I want it all (knowledge) now!

Thanks,

Joe
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 15, 2006, 02:48:14 PM
Hi Joe!

Now that I can relate too!! :D

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 15, 2006, 03:00:32 PM
Hi Harryfeat,

You wrote:

Quote
If you are getting your opinion regardless of translation then I assume you must be reading in the original greek. I wonder if this might have been the same process that was used to create the vulgate.
 


I think you missed my point. I am not "reading in the original Greek". My "opinion" that the Greek word "AIDIOS" (uses only a couple of times in scripture) cannot mean "Everlasting" comes from Jude 1:6. We know that these "chains" are only UNTIL the Judgment. Something cannot be "never-ending" and at the same time "come to an end". If this is how we are to use language, then we might as well start communicating by barking like dogs!  :lol:

For your review, please read Jude 1:6 again:

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [GK: "AIDIOS"...IMPERCEPTIBLE] chains under darkness [spiritual darkness of having NO TRUTH] UNTO (UNTIL) the judgment of the great day.

Now, WHY are they in imperceptible chains (which hold them in SPIRITUAL bondage so that they CANNOT understand the TRUTH and be HEALED) UNTIL (and only UNTIL) the Judgment? Because the "imperceptible chains" will be BROKEN at that time. The judgment will BE their salvation and it is where and HOW they will LEARN righteousness...AT THE JUDGMENT.  :D

Isaiah 26:9 And when Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will LEARN (not burn) RIGHTEOUSNESS"

...it will be no difference with the angels, including Satan, the Devil.

CAN something that is "AIDIOS" (imperceptible) BE imperceptible FOREVER? SURE, in theory! No argument there.

Based on Jude 1:6, I can scripturally conclude (not based on various lexicons or concordances, but based on scriptural USAGE) that this word AIDIOS, doesn't directly speak of duration or time, but rather, "imperceptibility".

Cheers,
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Lightseeker on June 15, 2006, 03:46:57 PM
Good imput and references from you guys...and you too Chrissie.

Jerreye

Here is a reference which explains Jude 1:6 from the position I/we're apparently not conveying to you.  Read it and see what you think.

There is but one Greek word beside aiónios rendered everlasting, and applied to punishment, in the New Testament, and that is the word aidios found in Jude 6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day." This word is found in but one other place in the New Testament, viz. Rom. i:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."

Now it is admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal,and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where aiónios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of aiónios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: vs 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." That is to say, the "aidios" chains in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the aiónion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?

1. The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the
former. The aidios chains are even as the aiónion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five hours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" convey the sense of unlimited, they are both limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by aiónios, indefinitely long.

2. That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels - - - he hath reserved in everlasting chains UNTO the judgement of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, we should not dare deny that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by aiónion and then expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, we understand that the imprisonment will terminate, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks
to convey the idea of eternity,
and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.

But observe, while this word aidios was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment, he never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never employed it. What ground then is there for saying that he adopted the language
of his day on this subject? Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment.
His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described
unending ruin, he disciplined, resulting in reformation.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Gill on June 15, 2006, 04:49:32 PM
Cool post, Dee, thanks for that  :idea:
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 15, 2006, 05:48:04 PM
Sorry, Lightseeker, but that bit ALMOST convinced me several months ago. We need to be very careful not to be easily swayed by human reason such as this.

Understand that this article of yours was written by a MAN, and he makes certain assumptions.

He states that "..it is admitted"....no it isn't. It isn't "admitted" by any of the writters of God's Word that this word means "everlasting". It is "ASSUMED" by many that this word means eternal.

If the message of Jude 1:6 (as far as AIDIOS is concerned) is talking about the LENGTH of time these chains will bind these messengers, and that this binding will come to an end at the judgment, (THIS is the thing "ADMITTED" by the writer of this passage of scripture, that these chains are NOT eternal, but rather come to an END, which is the OPPOSITE meaning of "eternal") then why not use the word "AIONIOS"?

"...aionios bonds, UNTIL the judgment...".

The answer is simple. Because Jude is not telling us "how long" these chains will bind them. He is telling us that these BONDS are imperceptible. These messengers do not know what is BINDING them. But they WILL know what is binding them at the judgment, when they are set FREE by God's righteous judgments.

I am not trying to sound stubborn, Lightseeker. I just don't believe is contradictions in the scriptures. I guess if you still believe that Aidios means "Eternal" (or any other direct agent of TIME), then we are going to have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings?  8)

Jeremy

PS: What does "AIDIOS" mean today? I do not know. I do know that "AIONIOS" - TODAY - means "everlasting" in the Greek language. Check any MODERN Greek dictionary. Words do change meaning over time. Catholic bias of the 3rd century on, I believe, is the direct cause of the word AIONIOS changing its meaning from "of the ages" to "everlasting".
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Lightseeker on June 16, 2006, 02:16:49 AM
Gill,

Quote
Cool post, Dee, thanks for that


Thanks Gill.  I hope the weather is better in England than here where I live.  Hot and windy...really windy.

jerreye

Quote
I guess if you still believe that Aidios means "Eternal" (or any other direct agent of TIME), then we are going to have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings?  


Yep, that's how I still believe.  Agree to disagree???  Sounds good to me.  Neither position determines where we're going to spend eternity by whoevers definition is right anyway...that's for sure.  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 16, 2006, 03:01:40 AM
Amen to that, Lightseeker  :D

On a side note, when I said that this word Aidios had nothing to do with time, perhaps I was not entirely accurate (I think it is pretty context dependant).

One other nice potential translation for the word Aidios in Jude 6 could be "perpetual". In other words, these chains are ON-GOING/PERPETUAL/CONTINUAL (we don't know exactly how long, but it is clear that it will be ongoing or continual...), but only UNTIL the judgment.

Here is an example...

"I am on a perpetual/on-going (Aidios) vacation, UNTIL my boss tells me otherwise"

The above line makes perfect sense...

Now, I certainly could NOT say the following (apart, perhaps from an idiomatic [idiotic?] expression)...
 
"I am on an EVERLASTING vaction UNTIL my boss tells me otherwise."

This above line makes no sense at all.

Imperceptible? Perpetual (with an imperceptible ending)? Both work for me, but "Eternal (without an ending)? Not a chance :)

Peace Bro!
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: love_magnified on June 16, 2006, 02:35:07 PM
Those are great examples Jerreye. Do you have info on the word derivative of aidos. I don't have esword with me. I'd like to know the roots.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 16, 2006, 03:20:53 PM
I like this one...

Imperceptible? Perpetual (with an imperceptible ending)?

Would make complete sense not being able to see to "The End" of it  :wink:

Then again, if one could, I wonder if He would be "without end" only in Himself? :lol:

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 16, 2006, 05:43:15 PM
Hi love_magnified,

The root (according to Strong's) is "Aei", which seems to mean "perpetually, incessantly, invariably".

Here is an example which I think goes to show that this word Aidios does have the connotation of being "perpetual/on-going", but certainly not "never-ending", as is proved by Jude 6.

Mark 15:8 (KJV) And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever [GK: "AEI"]done unto them.

Certainly the use of the term "ever" in this verse is NOT speaking of "NEVER-ENDINGNESS" or "ETERNITY". The words "always" or "usually" would have been a much better choice.

Mark 15:8 (KJV) And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had always/usually [GK: "AEI"]done unto them.

Some might think: "well, doesn't the term 'always' mean "eternal"? Not true. Just because someone always did certain things in the past, doesn't by neccesity mean that he will continue to do these same things "for eternity". That should be self-evident when we think about it for more than just a few seconds :)

Can we give a sense of "eternal" by using the word "always"? Sure...

"God will ALWAYS love us"... plus... "God will ETERNALLY love us"...

Both above are acceptible...

BUT, look at this...

"Men will ALWAYS be evil, UNTIL God heals them"

The above is true.

The following is NOT true:

"Men will be ETERNALLY evil, UNTIL God heals them?"

Now we are back to square one. The above is an obvious contradiction, once we truly understand the meaning of the words "EVERLASTING/ETERNAL".

"Eternal", by its very definition and usage means NEVER-ENDING. Somthing can NOT be: "Eternal...UNTIL". That would render the term "Eternal" usless, don't you think?

God Bless,
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Sorin on June 16, 2006, 06:39:08 PM
Well you guys can discuss this until the cows come home but I didn't get confused by Ray's answer. In fact I agreed with it. Nowhere in Scripture (not the Bible) are we promised "Eternal Life". Thus "Age Abiding" is the same as immortality because we will never die again, but unlike God ( who is Eternal)
we all had a beginning. That's how I look at it.

Take care,
Sorin
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 16, 2006, 06:59:29 PM
That’s great Sorin!!

Since you understand it so well maybe you can explain a few things to me.

You say:
Quote
Thus "Age Abiding" is the same as immortality


How are they the same? Does everyone get "age-abiding" (or aionios) life? Who does get it? When do they get it?

Thank you in advance.

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: love_magnified on June 16, 2006, 07:07:17 PM
2 Timothy 1:8-11
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Why life AND immortality? Because immortality is existence. Jesus Christ is LIFE. Aionios life is given to us in these ages right now:

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?

The reason it is life is because of Jesus Christ. The reason it is aionios is because right now, in these aions, he is within us. Aionios life is not immortality, it is the slavery to sin broken by the spirit within us during "chronos aionios" which is the time of the ages.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 16, 2006, 07:43:52 PM
I agree Love_Maginified

I think concentrating on the word by itself within the definition instead of the verse which defines it causes the problem.

Lets change the word eternal to something altogether different. :lol:  How about "beautiful"?

This is "beautiful life"" to know thee

Shouldn't we be looking into what it is "To know Him" :?:  rather then looking at the word "beautiful" in the verse losing what its talking about altogether?

But what we sometimes do, is hang onto the word.

"Beautiful"? Is it skin deep? How deep is it? Is it for only so LONG? How beautiful is it? What is beautiful?

How bout saying, simply "It is to know God" and go from "there". When do we stop "knowing God"? :lol:  To know God is to walk in love.

From this point I suppose one could ask, "what can separate us from His love? Shall life or death or anything other thing separate us from His love?

Perhaps I look stupid asking such a thing. It just gets so much more complicated with all these word definitions. The verse itself tells you what it is. Its our hope be careful not to "overthrow it". As with the resurrection anything that overthrows the faith or hope of others is treading dangerous ground.

Now I will leave, why the scholars figure this out.

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: love_magnified on June 16, 2006, 08:56:06 PM
Exactly. Aionios has no other meaning than "pertaining to ages." It carries no weight, or descriptive power other than that. The word we should focus on is not aionios, but L-I-F-E. And ask the question, is life tomorrow, or today. Therein lies the answer to what aionios life is.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Deedle on June 17, 2006, 12:17:31 PM
Quote
Exactly. Aionios has no other meaning than "pertaining to ages." It carries no weight, or descriptive power other than that. The word we should focus on is not aionios, but L-I-F-E. And ask the question, is life tomorrow, or today. Therein lies the answer to what aionios life is.


Bingo  :wink:

Deedle  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: CharlieMike on June 17, 2006, 02:50:49 PM
from: http://www.bibletruths.com/lake8.html

THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS
 
"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).

(1)

That’s CHRIST.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and [I am] the LIFE´ (John 11:25).

The KJV translates "tree" in this verse from the Greek word xulon. Here is Strong’s definition of xulon: "timber (for fuel or material); by impl. a stick, club or tree or wooden art. or substance … xulon, wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood." The word "tree" does fit what is spoken of in this verse, but when we come to Rev. 22:2, "tree of life" does not seem to fit as well.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life…" (Rev. 22:2).

How do we have one tree of life on BOTH sides of the river?

One translation translates both of these verses as "wood of life." Another has, "log of life." Interestingly, one translation has this footnote, Wood is the primary significance of zulon, and may here denote, as in Rev. xxii, an aggregation of dendra, or trees, commonly called a wood, or forest; a xulon of life, occupying a place on both sides of the river."

What a marvelous word picture God has presented to us in these words. Jesus Christ is first and foremost, "The" [singular] Tree of Life. This is the Tree of Life spoken of in the Garden of Eden. That tree grew out of the earth, just as Jesus (the source of life—from His Father) came in the flesh (the "earth") to bring life (immortality—deathlessness, eternal life) to all humanity. Interestingly, the first time xulon is used in Scripture is where Jesus said,

"For if they do these things in a green [living] tree [Gk: xulon—wood] what shall be done in the dry [dead wood]?" (Luke 23:31).

Jesus Christ is the "green living tree." Jesus met His death by being crucified. The "cross" of Christendom was really a post, pole, or upright stake that is fastened or planted in the ground manually—it did not grow from that spot. It is not a living xulon or wood or tree. Jesus died on a DEAD wood or dead tree.

But Jesus is now raised from the dead and is the Live Tree, the Tree of LIFE. We get a "taste" of this life when God gives us of His Holy Spirit. But we receive only the "ernest" or down payment in this life:

"…you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the ernest of our inheritance UNTIL [at a later date] the redemption of the purchased possession…" (Eph. 1:13b-14).

At the resurrection we will be changed:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: for we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2-3).

Jesus also said this:

"As Thou [the Father] has given Him [Jesus] power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life [eonian life, which for the believer includes immortality] to as many as Thou has given Him" (John 17:2).

And so, as Jesus has life in Himself, He will give us that same life. And just as Jesus is the Singlular "Wood [tree] of life," we too will become the Plural "Wood of Life" spoken of in Rev. 22:2. Remember a "wood" is a gathering of trees as in "woods" or "forest." Where do we read of such a gathering of "living trees?"

"And He showed me a pure river of water of life [this is God’s life giving spirit] clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God [the Father has life] and of the Lamb [the Father gives life to Jesus to give to as many as God has given Him]. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river [of life], was there the tree [xulon, wood, or woods or forest] of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (Rev 22:1-2).

Jesus is the source of all life because His Father gave Him life to disseminate to others.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the son to have LIFE IN HIMSELF" (John 5:26).

So in Revelation 22 we see the river of life flowing from God and Christ, through the middle of the forest of trees of life (that’s US), and we in return "heal the nations" just as Obadiah prophesied of the coming of "saviours" (plural) to Mt. Zion (God’s headquarters of government throne) to judge the nations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The formatting doesn't copy over so I just put some words in red to make them stand out.

It sound to me like Ray is saying that the elect get the ernest of the spirit now (or a taste of it) but they do not receive eternal life and immortality until the first resurrection which takes place at the beginning of the millennium.

Then at the end of the millennium when everyone else is resurrected they are also given immortality.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Deedle on June 17, 2006, 03:14:10 PM
Rev 20:5  
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Joh 11:25  
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Rev 22:13  
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Eph 5:14  
Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light."

Col 2:12  
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Deed  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 17, 2006, 03:51:38 PM
Hi Deedle!  :D

So then my next questions would be: What IS the "thousand years"? What does it MEAN to be "resurrected from the dead"? And just WHO IS "dead"?

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Deedle on June 17, 2006, 04:03:05 PM
Oh I think you know.  :wink:

Today!

2Pe 3:8  
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Heb 13:8  
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Out of time. Got to go.

Deedle  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 17, 2006, 04:26:38 PM
Quote
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


AMEN! Deedle  :wink:

Christ comes as a thief in the NIGHT, which is AS YESTERDAY when it is PAST and TODAY when you hear His voice and harden NOT your heart! A thousand years TWICE TOLD!! Jesus Christ the SAME.... YESTERDAY and TODAY and FOREVER!!  [-o<

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 04:30:46 PM
Amen Chrissie and Deedle :lol:

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Gen 1:5 the darkness he called Night

1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, "which thing" is true "in him" and "in you" because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.  

1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Yesterday (as a thousand years) or the "watch" in "the night" has past when the dead hear His voice in the "To day".

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 04:34:20 PM
:lol:  Amen Chrissie!!! Each day has a "time value" added to it. Thousand years are TWICETOLD. Its "doubled". Both in "Yesterday" and "To Day"

One passes "here" the other "begins" both being "here" :D

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 17, 2006, 04:43:51 PM
Yes, Daniel! Good verses.

God divided the day, didn't He?  Calling the darkness NIGHT.  :idea:

Jesus, himself, said that there are but twelve hours IN THE DAY.

And "the thousand years" is what? A DAY unto to the Lord and A DAY is "a thousand years".

While it is called TODAY when we hear His voice... we pass from darkness (the NIGHT) into the light (the DAY)...  and the NIGHT becomes as YESTERDAY (also a thousand years) when it is past. Resulting in "a thousand years" twice told. ONE DAY to the Lord, that is divided.  :shock:

Quite beautiful really!! God is so amazing!!

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.[/list:u]

He sure does know how to hide a thing, don't He?  :lol:  :lol:

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: eutychus on June 17, 2006, 04:48:54 PM
wow, you guys and gals are smokin :P


really good stuff and blessing me, thanks.

been reading this thread  and  its wonderfull.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


when?  :wink:

thanks again saints

chuckt
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 17, 2006, 04:56:10 PM
Hi Deedle (and everyone),

Perhaps I misunderstood Deedles post...maye some of you could clarify it for me  8)

Do you believe that we ARE, right NOW..."TODAY!" living in the "Thousand Years" spoken of in the book of Revelation?

Cheers!
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 05:03:04 PM
Hey Euty, myself and Chrissie are talking on this very thing at "tentmaker" under "Resurrection. first". My name is "Ruby" over there. I just was not sure it was something we could discuss here is why I took it there. Out of consideration to the board. Have you gone over there at all. Talking of the "thousand years" as they are shown in scripture. Its been a delightful conversation, full of insight the Lord has graciously given.

Blessing us always, we can't know a thing by ourselves without His help amen?

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: eutychus on June 17, 2006, 05:06:45 PM
Quote from: jerreye
Hi Deedle (and anyone),

Perhaps I misunderstood Deedles post...maye some of you could clarify it for me  8)

Do you believe that we ARE, right NOW..."TODAY!" living in the "Thousand Years" spoken of in the book of Revelation?

Cheers!
Jeremy




J.

hello

i could be wrong, but i see the 1000 yrs as being now and forever.

obviously salvation  is on going it is THE day.

more to come? sure.

but for us now who believe, what a wonderfull gift.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.



there is NO time with GOD.

so today is the 1000 yrs.

so is tomorrow, and the next day and the next and the next, etc. :P


hope im not crazy :arrow:  opps
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: eutychus on June 17, 2006, 05:10:15 PM
Quote from: Daniel
Hey Euty, myself and Chrissie are talking on this very thing at "tentmaker" under "Resurrection. first". My name is "Ruby" over there. I just was not sure it was something we could discuss here is why I took it there. Out of consideration to the board. Have you gone over there at all. Talking of the "thousand years" as they are shown in scripture. Its been a delightful conversation, full of insight the Lord has graciously given.

Blessing us always, we can't know a thing by ourselves without His help amen?

Peace

Daniel





what? chatting on another forum is verboten
 :lol:


havent been there in a while will check it out.

i am euty there too :wink:


am eutychus and or chuckt  where ever i go.

multi personality :?


love twords ya
chuckt
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 05:10:52 PM
Quote from: jerreye
Hi Deedle (and everyone),

Perhaps I misunderstood Deedles post...maye some of you could clarify it for me  8)

Do you believe that we ARE, right NOW..."TODAY!" living in the "Thousand Years" spoken of in the book of Revelation?

Cheers!
Jeremy


He is the same within these three days "Yesterday", "To Day" and "For ever" (two of which is a thousand years TWICETOLD)

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

The word "Reign" of LIFE is attached to both the last of "the two days" as in we REIGN IN LIFE  BY "ONE" Jesus Christ.

Darkness or death is pass over here as John shows. "We have passed from death unto life because "we love the brethren". In regards to "darkness" John adresses that as well. "Death", "darkness" and "night" reigned in "yesterday" (as a thousand years) shown past as John defines it after a spiritual place.

Its all how each one has come to understand it.

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: eutychus on June 17, 2006, 05:17:23 PM
today is somebody's yesterday, tomorrow is somebody's today

and its ALL CHRIST'S :shock:



im lovin it
(http://bestsmileys.com/kissing2/3.gif)
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 05:31:32 PM
Like two days or two ages wherein He is the Rock of them. Standing between the two. He is at the end (being "the End" Himself) of the first order and is "The Beginning" (Himself) of the Second order He establishes.

He is also "The end" of this as well. Being the Author and finisher of our faith. Receiving "the End" of our faith as well. Two Ages, one of a child and one of a Son. Like a circuit.

Revelation by itself cannot define the "thousand years" as no prophecy of scripture is its own interpretation. Peter says not to be ignorant of "this one thing" in regard to the thousand years. These are attached to "Days" one of "Yesterday"(was) and one of "Today" (is). Death reigned of Yesterday (was) for He came ONCE to bear sin (He who WAS) and comes a SECOND TIME (without sin) unto salvation (NOW IS). Sin should not "Reign" here, as we are not under the law (or the power of it) but under "Grace" through which the "Reign" is connected.  To these "two" is the  "thousand years" connected to. Two days. Remembering... He lived "a thousand years" TWICETOLD.

Yesterday (thousand years) To Day (Grace reigns by one, thousand years) and "For ever" there is seen a "reign" as well.

If we are in The "To Day". One could say rather "NOW and FOR EVER" OR "To Day" and FOR EVER as Paul calls it.

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Lightseeker on June 17, 2006, 05:38:05 PM
Chrissie,

Quote
Thus "Age Abiding" is the same as immortality  


How are they the same? Does everyone get "age-abiding" (or aionios) life? Who does get it? When do they get it?

love_magnified

Quote
Exactly. Aionios has no other meaning than "pertaining to ages." It carries no weight, or descriptive power other than that. The word we should focus on is not aionios, but L-I-F-E. And ask the question, is life tomorrow, or today. Therein lies the answer to what aionios life is.

Good questions Chrissie. Let me try to elaborate on the good response of what Love_ said. We're talking about the word aion and its derivative aionios. Right on Love_!

The word aion is defining a quantity of time while aionios  is a quality of or within that same time period.  It's not as much dependent upon the exact time of that period, as it is a quality that exists within that time period.  For example:  There is 60 minutes in an hour.  If we have 5 hourly meetings tomorrow does that mean we necessarily were in each of them for 60 minutes?  No it doesn't.  It just means we participated (for a period of time) within each of those 60 minute hourly (time frame) meetings.  The same is true with an aion, which is an age/eon or a definite period or length of time (just how long we don't know, God knows).  But we can experience aionios life within that aion time period.   Aionios life is a quality of life that pertains to that age/aion.  The YLT always says age-during concerning the translation of aionios (like Love_ mentioned "pertaining to ages"). In other words it's speaking to something that happens during that age).  What's happening is determined by an associated word (such as life age-during, death age-during, punishment age-during ect).  I can receive the aionian chastisements/punishments/judgments of God in my lifetime (however long that may be) but they all take place within this aion/age (however long it may be).  But I'm hoping for immortality or 'the quality of God's life/aionian' which will allow me live to the end of this aion/age.

Aidios on the other hand speaks of not ages/aions or qualities within those ages/aionios, but it speaks of endless time foreward and backward.  Included in aidios is all the aions/ages.

The reason Ray says God promises no one aidios life, is  because aionian life (or 'the life' of that age) is 'within' aidios life (God's eternal life).  So aonian life 'during this age' is equal to the aidios or eternal life that exists with God.  Aionian is a quality of time that takes place within God's quantity of time aidios/eternal.

I hope I'm doing this picture justice because I'm drawing on some faded out grey matter concerning a teaching read years ago.  Not many places to discuss this kind of stuff so it's not been challenged/reinforced/meditated upon enough to explain any better.  I'm also at the daughter's house this weekend and was really just going to 'look' today...not post.  :roll:

One last thought.  If time is a created entity...and God lives outside that 'box' looking in (therefore seeing the "end from the beginning), then we aren't looking for a definition of eternity anyway because eternity is time without end...isn't it?  What we will enter into, when we enter into God's LIFE in the hereafter, is really timelessness...isn't it?

Let the wheels turn.  :idea:   I gotta get back to family.   :arrow:
Happy 'pappy day' tomorrow to all those of you who are.  And I guess only those in USA?
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 05:50:59 PM
To see "The End" of the first thing, is looking at the Begining HIMSELF. The words expressing "The End" in scripture express WHO Christ is in relation to "the Covenants". He IS "The End" of the FIRST (covenant) and HE IS "The Begining" of The SECOND (covenant).

Thats why there is what appears a contradiction of "terms" within "words". HE is the Rock of THE AGES. That of THE AGE (limited Duration, apponted time of the Father) of The Child, "under the Law". He is also "THE END" of THAT AGE (THE LAW) but IN HIMSELF "HE" is WITHOUT END.

So you have AGE, END and WITHOUT END. Seeing these without seeing Him in the "midst of them" causes the disputes and misses THE MARK of what they speak of.

HE is also,  THE BEGINNING, of WHAT? The SECOND AGE, whats THAT? The AGE of a SON. We from HERE receive THE END of our FAITH which AGAIN IS HIM (Who IS BOTH "The Begining" AND "The End") BUT who is "WITHOUT" BEGINING OR END (IN HIMSELF)

Thats why you see beginings and ends and ages tied together and it becomes a complete MESS without seeing Him standing in the midst of these things.

I'll stay completely out of this if I feel it will go nowhere but into dispute :lol:

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 17, 2006, 07:31:54 PM
Thanks Chuck, Daniel for your responses...

I understand that a thousand years is AS (like) a day unto God. I believe that. But this to me is simply saying that time is not an issue with God. I don't see how it relates directly to "THE thousand year reign"  :?

Isn't it clear that THE thousand year reign starts just AFTER the first resurrection? We certainly are not yet "reigning over the nations with any rod of iron" that I can see  :shock:

We ALL are going to die physically (unless He return prior to that...let's HOPE!  :o )....but THE resurrection back to life happens when our DEAD soul is reunited with a SPIRITUAL BODY. This has yet to happen, obviously. So, THE resurrection is yet future, so doesn't this mean that THE thousand year reign is yet FUTURE and NOT now?

This is how I see it when I  read the scripture....However, if what you guys are really trying to say is that we, the true believers, have it (the LIFE, the SPIRIT etc) in EARNEST (down payment) and NOT in FULLNESS, then THAT I understand and FULLY agree, because that is what I see in scripture!

I believe we have ALL of these things (at least those to whom the "ends of the ages have already attained") in earnest only at this time.

But let me tell ya, the earnest is sure better than nothing!  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 17, 2006, 07:51:05 PM
Jerreye,

To go into a lot of details about what I do or don’t believe about the thousand years or the ruling and reigning with Christ might cause me to step TOO FAR over the line that I try to respect here.

I try to stay on COMMON ground were I can out of respect for Ray and for those here who believe as is taught by Ray (I used to be one of those people).

I can only say that we need to always continue to seek and to ask God for the wisdom and knowledge to see the deeper, hidden things.

We need to ask “what does ‘this’ or ‘that’ MEAN"?

For instance:

What does it mean to “rule and reign with Christ a thousand years�?

What does it mean to “rule the nations with a rod of iron? What IS a “rod of iron�? What are “the nations�?

Who are the “dead�? What does it mean to be “dead�? What does it mean to be “resurrected from the dead�?

What is the “earnest� of the spirit? And How does that relate to “moving on to maturity�?

What is the difference between a “child� and a “son�?

What is "THE resurrection"?

(Is not Chirst THE resurrection and THE life?)

Lot’s of questions to be asked and answered.

My understanding used to be exactly the same as yours. Whether right or wrong, God has seen fit to change it, in at least a few areas.

Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 17, 2006, 08:10:08 PM
Chrissie,

I certainly do not want to cause you to "go too far", chrissie. My intentions on this forum are pure. I hope you believe that.

You state that we need to seek the deeper, hidden things of God (the MEAT, if you will). This is true, but we shouldn't even consider it until we have a firm grasp of the milk... If we don't have a SOLID and sustained diet of sincere spiritual milk, then moving directly on to the meat is a very risky and dangerous venture and can cause a person to start teaching serious heresy.

Much love to you :)

Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: gmik on June 17, 2006, 08:29:08 PM
Quote from: Daniel
Amen Chrissie and Deedle :lol:

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Gen 1:5 the darkness he called Night

1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, "which thing" is true "in him" and "in you" because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.  

1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Yesterday (as a thousand years) or the "watch" in "the night" has past when the dead hear His voice in the "To day".

Peace

Daniel



1Thess 5:5-ll   (Paraphrased)   We are not of the NIGHT, Let us not SLEEP AS others do....they that SLEEP  are drunk....Let us be of the DAY, be sober and vigilant...not to wrath but to obtain salvation!.....

But WHETHER .. we wake or sleep...WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER...wherefore COMFORT one another......

Don't know if this fits in here but I just love this!!  Got it from the Tamar study over on Mike's site.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 17, 2006, 08:50:16 PM
This is going to be real short as I have my back against the wall time wise.

Consider this thought if you will, how can one be "resurrected" if one was not alive in the first place? How can someone be in the 1st resurrection unto life if they were not dead to the flesh and living in His spirit first?

This business of the thousand years being now (or in each individual's life)I believe is a mistake, those that are the called (but not chosen) and the unbelievers are not yet spiritually alive (walking dead spiritually), that is why when they are brought out of thier graves they are of the 2nd (continued) death, the Lake of Fire.

Christ was very much alive in spirit (our example) during His time on earth, yet He experienced physical death (unless you do not believe He really "died" for our sins) He experienced the sleep of death, but will anyone argue he was not of the Spirit?

Those who die that are dead spiritually will be raised spiritually dead, those who have died to the flesh living this life spiritually will be (brought back to the life they were growing in) re-erected (resurrected) to continue in the spiritual life, this time in a spiritual, immortal, incorruptable body.

My point is that the 1st resurrection is only for those who experienced (were brought to) spiritual life while still physically in the flesh, whatever generation they happened to live in, to be awakened to life once more with a spiritual body like our Lord's to rule and minister with Him unto the salvation of all mankind.

Got to go but am VERY interested in any and all comments.

Peace,

Joe
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 17, 2006, 09:10:39 PM
Quote
This is going to be real short as I have my back against the wall time wise.

Consider this thought if you will, how can one be "resurrected" if one was not alive in the first place?


Exactly, Joe. But are any of us “alive� (spiritually speaking) until we are “raised from the dead�?

Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.[/list:u]

We have to awake from our ‘sleep’ (death) so that we CAN “live�.

Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.[/list:u]

Only the elect/chosen ARE in the “first resurrectionâ€?.  But is not being resurrected passing from death unto life?

No, unbelievers are not yet spiritually alive (that makes them ‘dead’, does it not? Being that they “have no life� in them?


Where does it say that one has to be “re-erected�? Or that one has to be brought to life “once more�?

Certainly we have to shed these bodies of flesh, but we can indeed walk in the spirit and NOT in the flesh even while we are in them. Do the scriptures not tell us this?

I’m short on time, too, got a niece’s birthday party to go to.

Maybe I can add more later.  :?:

Good scriptures Gena! Absolutely relevant!!

Blessings ALL,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 17, 2006, 10:23:05 PM
We all agree that the revelation of Christ is, was and will be.  Then why isn't the resurrection "is" for those Christ has revealed himself to.  Why do those who he has revealed himself to have to wait for the "will be", for their resurrection??


Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Jesus is the resurrection.  He was the resurrection, he is the resurrection, and he will be the resurrection.  


Seems to me, to always be looking for a future resurrection is to deny the "is" part of Christ.   He is the resurrection, to those he has revealed himself to.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 17, 2006, 11:35:02 PM
Hi Rocky,

I believe that we DO have "the resurrection" and "the life"....all of which is Jesus Christ! BUT, we only have it in earnest (down-payment) - 2 Cor 1:22. Because we HAVE Christ does not mean that we are already "resurrected from the dead".

The FULLNESS comes in the actual resurrection, which is in the future.

We should't be guilty (I am not saying you are  8) ) of "overthrowing the faith of some", as Paul put it:

"...who strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

The resurrection has NOT taken place. Paul makes it clear that it is in the future.

God Bless,
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 11:37:56 PM
Quote from: gmik
Quote from: Daniel
Amen Chrissie and Deedle :lol:

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Gen 1:5 the darkness he called Night

1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, "which thing" is true "in him" and "in you" because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.  

1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Yesterday (as a thousand years) or the "watch" in "the night" has past when the dead hear His voice in the "To day".

Peace

Daniel



1Thess 5:5-ll   (Paraphrased)   We are not of the NIGHT, Let us not SLEEP AS others do....they that SLEEP  are drunk....Let us be of the DAY, be sober and vigilant...not to wrath but to obtain salvation!.....

But WHETHER .. we wake or sleep...WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER...wherefore COMFORT one another......

Don't know if this fits in here but I just love this!!  Got it from the Tamar study over on Mike's site.


Amen Gena :D  Theres a "play on words" on "the night" and that which is associated with it.

The Spirit of sleep given is that they would sleep and not wake and that they might indeed rejoice (in it). Paul and James adress "this kind" of rejoicing. Drunkeness is being "high minded" (thinking more highly of themselves then they ought) rather then soberly (or lowliness of mind).

Its true, Amen that whether we sleep or wake we live together with Him. Like He is holding hands with "Yesterday" (of the night) and "To day" (not of the night, but of "the day") Yet they both exist together (just in different places spiritually speaking). He stands between them.

One could be in a place where darkness (or night, or of yesterday) is PAST for them. The other who "loveth not His brother" is in darkness (of night and of yesterday) even "until now". It speaks of these things in various ways.

I agree, He is GOOD :D

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 17, 2006, 11:48:34 PM
Quote from: rocky
We all agree that the revelation of Christ is, was and will be.  Then why isn't the resurrection "is" for those Christ has revealed himself to.  Why do those who he has revealed himself to have to wait for the "will be", for their resurrection??


Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Jesus is the resurrection.  He was the resurrection, he is the resurrection, and he will be the resurrection.  


Seems to me, to always be looking for a future resurrection is to deny the "is" part of Christ.   He is the resurrection, to those he has revealed himself to.


Excellent point Rocky, He IS and IS "TO COME" to all who look for Him. Studying of words in connection to what this all means would help in many areas.

Its a "lively hope". Its easy to believe in a Him who WAS, and easier to believe for Him after your dead and buried. Believing on Him who IS is much more difficult to do. The "power of God" for "the present" in the life that "now IS". Though not  in "this life" only.

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 18, 2006, 12:33:06 AM
jerreye,

Who said the resurrection is past? How can the resurrection be past when Christ IS the resurrection? How can the resurrection be past when death has yet to be destroyed?

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 18, 2006, 01:25:48 AM
Chrissie,

I never said that the resurrection is past. I was stating just the opposite.

This is why I used the following passage:

2Tim 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The resurrection is NOT past. It hasn't happend yet. It is in the future.

Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 01:36:00 AM
The earnest of spirit i think is a valid point, but I still think there is a valid point that Jesus is the resurrection.  He isnt' the means to an event, called the resurrection.  He is the resurrection.

Isnt' this correct????
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 18, 2006, 01:50:23 AM
Hi Rocky,

I agree with you :)

Jesus WAS the resurrection, Jesus IS the resurrection and Jesus WILL BE the resurrection. He also is the LIFE and the TRUTH. But my point is, is that even though this is all true, it doesn't mean that WE have been already "resurrected" (past OR present). We WILL BE resurrected, but not until the future when we are awaken from our "sleep of death".

This happens at the last trump that Paul spoke about when the DEAD in Christ are risen first, THEN we which are alive and remail at that time will be caught up in the air to meet them. This event has not taken place in the PAST and it isn't taking place NOW, but it WILL take place in the "WILL BE" future. This is the point I was trying to make. Isn't this what the scriptures teach?

Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 01:54:37 AM
Quote from: hillsbororiver


.....Christ was very much alive in spirit (our example) during His time on earth, yet He experienced physical death (unless you do not believe He really "died" for our sins) He experienced the sleep of death, but will anyone argue he was not of the Spirit?


Joe


Joe, was Christ's death physically what we have to physically go through in order to to be resurrected, or was Christ's physical death a representative of our spiritual death/death to self.  A shadow of the spiritual in us???  

So many things that happened during Christ's walk on the earth were physical events that have spiritual implication to us, ie: healing the sick, casting out demons, making lame walk, making blind sea, deaf hear etc.  

Seems we could also look at the physical death of Christ as this too????
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 01:56:00 AM
Quote from: jerreye
Hi Rocky,

I agree with you :)

Jesus WAS the resurrection, Jesus IS the resurrection and Jesus WILL BE the resurrection. He also is the LIFE and the TRUTH. But my point is, is that even though this is all true, it doesn't mean that WE have been already "resurrected" (past OR present). We WILL BE resurrected, but not until the future when we are awaken from our "sleep of death".

This happens at the last trump that Paul spoke about when the DEAD in Christ are risen first, THEN we which are alive and remail at that time will be caught up in the air to meet them. This event has not taken place in the PAST and it isn't taking place NOW, but it WILL take place in the "WILL BE" future. This is the point I was trying to make. Isn't this what the scriptures teach?

Jeremy


Why does awaken from our "sleep of death" have to be physical????
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 18, 2006, 02:03:11 AM
Oh, but it isn't It is a spiritual resurrection.

There is a physical body (which we have NOW) and there is a spiritual body (when does this happen?). Do you now posses your spiritual body, Rocky, or will this happen in the future, at THE resurrection?
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 02:05:06 AM
Quote from: jerreye
Hi Rocky,

I agree with you :)

..... This event has not taken place in the PAST and it isn't taking place NOW, but it WILL take place in the "WILL BE" future. This is the point I was trying to make. Isn't this what the scriptures teach?

Jeremy


I am not sure that it is what scriptures teach, because you have left out "is".  You say that Jesus/resurection  is not in the past, and is not now but only future.  


Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Jerry, I do see your side too, I see a lot of logic to what you say, but I also see spiritual implications to "dead in Christ are made alive, raised up now".  


I'll take a breather, sit back and listen some more.  God bless.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 18, 2006, 02:27:07 AM
Hi Rocky,

Jesus IS the resurrection. He always WAS and always WILL be the resurrection. But HOW does this mean that YOU have ALREADY been resurrected? I don't understand.

2Tim 2:17-18
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (BTW: if OUR ressurection has NOT YET taken place, does this mean that Jesus is no longer the IS and WAS? I don't understand why that would be  :?: ) and overthrow the faith of some.

Again, just because Jesus "is, was and will be" THE resurrection, does not tell us that WE, the spiritual Jew (individually) have ALREADY been resurrected from the dead. How can this be if you still look in the mirror and STILL have corruptible flesh? We must PUT ON immortality...but WHEN does this occur? In some "WAS" resurrection? Some "IS" resurrection? OR, in a "WILL BE" resurrection?

1Cor 15:42
So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [Are you incorruptible yet, Rocky?]

1Cor 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [Do you have your spiritual body yet?]

Paul already warned us NOT to claim that the resurrection has ALREADY ("WAS") past. Because Jesus IS, WAS and WILL BE, does NOT tell us that OUR resurrection IS, WAS and WILL BE. We will only have it ONCE, and it is in the future.

Cheers!
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 03:11:13 AM
edit, deleted.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 03:57:38 AM
Quote from: jerreye
Oh, but it isn't It is a spiritual resurrection.

There is a physical body (which we have NOW) and there is a spiritual body (when does this happen?). Do you now posses your spiritual body, Rocky, or will this happen in the future, at THE resurrection?


are we not a many membered spiritual body, with the head being Christ??Are we not the body of Christ??  Seems to me to be a spiritual body.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 18, 2006, 10:37:29 AM
Doesn't one need to be born before they can die and be resurrected? I do not see scripture equating "born in spirit" and" resurrection" pertaining to the conversion from carnal life to spiritual life.

When I did a word search on E-sword I found resurrection primarliy as either what Christ actually experienced or references to belief in that experience, not that we have been resurrected, no we have been reborn, become a new creature in His Spirit.

Return and resurrect are close to synonymous both relate to "bringing something back" if I have never been to Africa how can I return to Africa, I must have been there (born) and left (die) before I can return (resurrected) there.

Resurecting a career would imply you had to have a career to begin with, resurrecting a reputation means you had a reputation previously, a new person has to ESTABLISH a reputation (life) then lose  it (die) then trust that it will be returned/resurrected at the appointed time.

Joe

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17  And their word will eat, as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
 
2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 18, 2006, 10:50:22 AM
Quote from: rocky
Quote from: hillsbororiver


.....Christ was very much alive in spirit (our example) during His time on earth, yet He experienced physical death (unless you do not believe He really "died" for our sins) He experienced the sleep of death, but will anyone argue he was not of the Spirit?


Joe


Joe, was Christ's death physically what we have to physically go through in order to to be resurrected, or was Christ's physical death a representative of our spiritual death/death to self.  A shadow of the spiritual in us???  

So many things that happened during Christ's walk on the earth were physical events that have spiritual implication to us, ie: healing the sick, casting out demons, making lame walk, making blind sea, deaf hear etc.  

Seems we could also look at the physical death of Christ as this too????




 Hi Rocky, why must this be an either/or situation? How about both? Was Christ in need of a spiritual conversion before His death? No, He was perfect, but He trusted the Father to return Him to life, isn't this one of the things that baptism represents as well? A trust that we will be returned to life? Spiritual conversion is not resurrection it is being born again, born in spirit, being made (a process) unto perfection (not made perfect), the resurrection is receiving an immortal, incorruptable spiritual body like His body. Although He was perfect and spiritual in His walk on earth He still died and was resurrected.

Much of scripture has more than one application, it is richly textured and true on so many levels.

Joe

Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 10:51:57 AM
Quote from: hillsbororiver
Doesn't one need to be born before they can die and be resurrected? I do not see scripture equating "born in spirit" and" resurrection" pertaining to the conversion from carnal life to spiritual life.

When I did a word search on E-sword I found resurrection primarliy as either what Christ actually experienced or references to belief in that experience, not that we have been resurrected, no we have been reborn, become a new creature in His Spirit.

Return and resurrect are close to synonymous both relate to "bringing something back" if I have never been to Africa how can I return to Africa, I must have been there (born) and left (die) before I can return (resurrected) there.

Resurecting a career would imply you had to have a career to begin with, resurrecting a reputation means you had a reputation previously, a new person has to ESTABLISH a reputation (life) then lose  it (die) then trust that it will be returned/resurrected at the appointed time.

Joe

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17  And their word will eat, as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
 
2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Cool Joe, never seen it that way.  this came to mind, reading your verses.

Rom 7:9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Jam 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

(to me married is union, one with Him, He is resurrection, Christ in us is resurrection)

Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
 
Rom 7:6  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[/quote]

I don't believe the resurrection is past, but i'm beginning to believe that it is now, a process (not a one time event) of Christ revealing himself to those he chooses to.  To me, Christ=Resurrection.  The Revelation of Christ in us=Resurrection.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: rocky on June 18, 2006, 11:09:47 AM
Definitions of resurrection.  

G386
ἀνάστασις
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

G1454
ἔγερσις
egersis
eg'-er-sis
From G1453; a resurgence (from death): - resurrection.

G1815
ἐξανάστασις
exanastasis
ex-an-as'-tas-is
From G1817; a rising from death: - resurrection.


I see what yu mean even more Joe, thanks.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 18, 2006, 11:15:06 AM
Quote from: rocky
I don't believe the resurrection is past, but i'm beginning to believe that it is now, a process (not a one time event) of Christ revealing himself to those he chooses to.  To me, Christ=Resurrection.  The Revelation of Christ in us=Resurrection.


Rocky, I agree we are going through a process as those in the past did and those yet to come will, but that process is growing (living) in His spirit, developing (maturing) the fruits of the spirit (and manifesting those fruits in our lives).

Joe
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: hillsbororiver on June 18, 2006, 11:16:22 AM
Quote from: rocky
Definitions of resurrection.  

G386
ἀνάστασις
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

G1454
ἔγερσις
egersis
eg'-er-sis
From G1453; a resurgence (from death): - resurrection.

G1815
ἐξανάστασις
exanastasis
ex-an-as'-tas-is
From G1817; a rising from death: - resurrection.


I see what yu mean even more Joe, thanks.
 

Rocky,

You are very welcome my Brother,

Joe
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 18, 2006, 01:01:02 PM
jerreye,

I never said that you said that the resurrection is past. I understood your point.

My point was that no one here has said it is past and that is the accusation being made.

Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 18, 2006, 01:19:58 PM
Quote from: jerreye
Oh, but it isn't It is a spiritual resurrection.

There is a physical body (which we have NOW) and there is a spiritual body (when does this happen?). Do you now posses your spiritual body, Rocky, or will this happen in the future, at THE resurrection?


jerreye,

What about the "inner man" that is born of the spirit and that walks after the spirit and not after the flesh?

Paul says that we are NO LONGER in the flesh, as those who are IN THE FLESH cannot please God. ( Rom 8 )

What does it mean "the redemption of the BODY"? Or to have our MORTAL bodies quickened? What does it mean to have this mortal PUT ON immoratlity and this corruption PUT ON incorruption. This is addressing something that we "put on"... not something that we "take off".

We are not waiting to be "unclothed"; we are waiting to be "clothed upon". (2 Cor 5)

Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 18, 2006, 02:33:33 PM
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption[/u] of the transgressions that were under the first testament[/b], they "which are called" might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.[/b]

Heres words to think about as to how the definition of these are used elsewhere in scripture to convey the same thought .

Redemption

1) a releasing effected by payment of ransom (The effectual working of His power, Christ of effect or to no effecct?)

a) redemption[/b], deliverance[/u] (From?)

b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom (Liberation? Set free? for Liberty?)



Ephesians 1:14 Which is "the earnest of our inheritance" until"the redemption" of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1) a preserving, a preservation (preserving body soul and spirit?)

2) possession, one's own property[/u] (not our own?)

3) an obtaining (called to obtain?)

2Thes 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of[/b] the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when "his glory" shall be revealed, "ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (where is His glory revealed?)

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Phil 3:21 Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto "his glorious body", according to the working "whereby" he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that "your body" is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Thes 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

1Peter 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.[/u]

1Peter 1:23 "Being born again", not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:13 "Which were born", not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If then being born of incorruptible (because corruptible cannot inherit incorruptible) where is this shown as occuring?

And if Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God but above declares that though (through carnal eyes we are) why does the verse seem to ignore the obvious and speak to the otherwise? It is not acknowledging these things as we would normally understand it. To the contrary it appears.

If and when MORTAL "PUTS ON" Immortality, what would that "look like"? Seems corruptible "PUTS ON" incorruptible, and the verse above acknowledges a birth to the same effect.

The Creature was subject to vanity and was in bondage to corruption (elsewhere saying of corruption one has escaped the corruption of the world through lust). What then does "that" mean if one has been "liberated" within the bounds spoken of concerning the NEW Creature verses THE Creature. One seems subjected in hope the other "liberated". Sounds an alot like the a releasing effected by payment of ransom defined within the word of "redemption".

Just some things to consider, that He who IS "The Resurrection" who always IS hath delivered (from so great a death) He doth deliver and will yet deliver. Look also at "delivered" as a word pertaining to redemption aas well. In Christ in whom these things be of. Both in past tense (was) present tense (is) and future tense (will be) in relation to what He is made unto us for. He hath power or He does not. His power works in the present or it does not. He IS or He simply was and will be but would that not be holding to a form of godliness denying His power and Him who IS? Admonished that we must believe HE "IS".

Just a few things to ask oneself thats all

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 18, 2006, 02:36:47 PM
Quote
The resurrection has NOT taken place. Paul makes it clear that it is in the future.


Paul walked “as though� he has not already attained the resurrection of the dead (Phi 3:12), as though he were still striving for it, that he MIGHT ATTAIN it. That does not mean that he has NOT attained it; it means that he doesn’t “count� himself as having already attained it (verse 13). And HE tells US ALSO to “be thus minded�.

Because what did Jesus say?

If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.[/list:u]

Paul knew and understood that we must endure to the end; that we are running “a race� and that there would be many who would “fall away� or be “lead astray�; that wolves would come in to devour the flock.

So at what point can someone say “I have reached the goal�? At what point can someone (even Paul) say “I have attained�?

At NO point!! It is all by the will and the power of God.

He even tells us:

whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.[/list:u]

What Rule? Walk “as though� you HAVE NOT already attained, either were already perfected. Count NOT yourself to ALREADY have apprehended. In other words... endure to the end.

Very much like what Jesus said: If you say that you can see, your sin REMAINS.

He goes on to point out that the Lord will change “our vile body�, that it may be fashioned after His glorious body.

The Son of God if being formed IN US… IN these “vile bodies�. We are not being “unclothed�, we are being “clothed upon�. (2 Cor 5)

Yes, one day we will all die physically and rid ourselves of this body of flesh, this body of death. But Christ did not come to tell us how we can have life LATER. HE came to GIVE US LIFE NOW. Because unless we eat of HIS flesh and drink of HIS blood, we have NO LIFE IN US.

Christ came TO THE DEAD, to bring LIFE. What has that to do with the PHYSICALLY dead?

He used physical healings and physical resurrections as “examples� of spiritual truths.

The blind are made to see; the deaf are made to hear; the lame are made to walk; and THE DEAD ARE RAISED. He performed all those miracles physically to indicate the miracles that He would perform spiritually, by the power of the Holy Spirit, after His crucifixion and resurrection.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. That is why whether was wake or sleep we live TOGETHER WITH HIM. That is how the tares and the wheat grow TOGETHER UNTIL HARVEST. That is why Christ died and was resurrected and revived… so that He would be Lord of BOTH the living and the dead. (Not the PHYSICALLY DEAD, those who have “no life in them�; those who “sleep�, the “tares�.)

Paul said that the DEAD in Christ shall rise first. How does this apply to the elect who are PHYSICALLY DEAD, when the scriptures tell us that the last will be FIRST and the first will be LAST and that at the time of harvest THE TARES WILL BE GATHERED FIRST?

The “dead in Christ� that RISE FIRST are the “tares�; those that sleep. Paul said that WE will NOT PREVENT “those that sleep�. He's not talking about those who are PHYSICALLY dead... he's talking about those who also remain who have not passed from death unto life; those who are not a part of the first resurrection, receiving life now... passing from the NIGHT into THE DAY.

I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (they have no hope, because they are 'dead', 'asleep'... though physically alive.)

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.[/list:u]

Them that are “asleep� are not physically dead people; they are they who are walking in darkness, not having passed from death unto life, not knowing the love of God or one another.

And “those who are ALIVE and remain� (those who are dead ALSO “remain�) will not prevent them; for they will be caught up first (the tares are harvested FIRST; Mat 13:30). THEN “those who are alive and remain" will be caught up together with them.

As I see it now, the last trump has already begun to sound and the dead are being raised to life. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection (those who pass from death unto life NOW) for the second death will have no power over them. For they will be kings and priests and shall reign with Christ a thousand years in His kingdom.

Jesus said: “my kingdom is NOT of this world�.

And what of this?

the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 1:6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.[/list:u]

The book of Revelation is about the revelation or revealing of Christ... who comes as a thief IN THE NIGHT.

The things that are written in the book that we are to KEEP, we are keeping NOW. And the promises that are made "to those who overcome" are being fulfilled now, as I see it.

How else can you explain how the TARES are harvest first. If you claim the elect are resurrected first?

Didn’t the Jews miss the coming of their Messiah because they were looking for a physical kingdom? How is our looking for a physical kingdom, with a hope of being made literal kings and priests in it any different?

And how else can you explain:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.[/list:u]

That fits perfectly together with what Paul said about those who are ASLEEP (or the DEAD in Christ) shall RISE FIRST... THEN those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them.... if you understand that BOTH categories of people are PHYSICALLY alive, some are "awake" (living in THE DAY) and some are "asleep" (walking in THE NIGHT; those who sleep sleep at night).

whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.[/list:u]

Both the wheat and the tares grow together til harvest. The tares are harvested first. Please someone explain to me how that can be if the resurrection is yet future and the "elect" are resurrected first, long (a symbolic thousand years) before the tares/wicked?


Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: bobf on June 18, 2006, 05:11:10 PM
Chrissie,

How can the gathering and burning of the tares be considered a resurrection?   They are gathered out of the kingdom, not into it.

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

The pharisees do not precede the publicans & sinners into the kingdom.  The publicans & sinners precede and lead the pharisees into the kingdom.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: jerreye on June 18, 2006, 05:30:45 PM
Chrissie, you wrote:

Quote
jerreye,

I never said that you said that the resurrection is past. I understood your point.

My point was that no one here has said it is past and that is the accusation being made.

Chrissie


Noone said this directly. Plus, I didn't make a direct "accusation" either. In fact, if you read the post I made a comment in brackets stating that I was NOT accusing him of stating that.

However, it WAS indirectly claimed that the "resurrection" "IS" and...."WAS" (WAS is a PAST-TENSE word that means ALREADY HAPPENED). Do you believe that THE resurrection spoken of in Revelation has ALREADY HAPPENED to YOU? Paul says NO. So do I.

I have stated a number of times in my posts that we have the EARNEST (down-payment) of God's SPIRIT, NOT the fullness. We are NOT FULLY spiritual at this time, even though SIN no longer has complete dominion over you, you STILL sin, Chrissie, do you not?

Do you think you are fully spiritual at this time? Are you not going to die? When your body dies, what happens to "the real YOU" directly after? Are you immediately in God's pressence? Isn't there a LITERAL resurrection from your DEATH condition that you WILL be in after your body expires? Will you not "sleep the sleep of DEATH"?

Perhaps we are both not understanding each other!  :shock:

Here is what I believe...I believe that we have God's spirit, but ONLY in down-payment. We are spiritually sustained by that spirit for the remainder of our physical life. There WILL be a time that we all physically DIE. We will SLEEP the sleep of death and will be called OUT of that death condition (Hades) in the RESURRECTION (which is where we receive the FULLNESS, which includes a new spiritual body), which has NOT yet taken place. It will take place in the future.

Isn't this what you believe? If not, what part?

God Bless,
Jeremy
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: bobf on June 18, 2006, 05:34:57 PM
Quote from: chrissiela
The “dead in Christ� that RISE FIRST are the “tares�; those that sleep. Paul said that WE will NOT PREVENT “those that sleep�. He's not talking about those who are PHYSICALLY dead... he's talking about those who also remain who have not passed from death unto life; those who are not a part of the first resurrection, receiving life now... passing from the NIGHT into THE DAY.


How do you know Paul is not talking about the physically dead?

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep

The tares are not in Christ so they can not be the "dead in Christ" can they? They are gathered first, but they are gathered OUT of the kingdom to be burned, not into the kingdom or resurrected.

The orders of being made alive in Christ are (1 Cor 15)
1. Christ
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming
3. The enemies of Christ
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Daniel on June 18, 2006, 06:13:31 PM
Quote
However, it WAS indirectly claimed that the "resurrection" "IS" and...."WAS" (WAS is a PAST-TENSE word that means ALREADY HAPPENED).


If your "implying myself" I said no such thing. Christ IS "The Resurrection" and HE certainly WAS, IS, and WILL BE "The Resurrection". In regard to WHO IS "The Resurrection" He most certain WAS. But in regard to knowing the power of HIS RESURRECTION, this is our ONGOING HOPE in the IS and IS TO COME.

But of the Resurrection being PAST is NOT what I am saying. IT shows that "AFTER" HIS RESURRECTION (Rising) OTHERS CAME FORTH (the picture to show something further concerning ourselves)

Meaning AFTER HIS Resurrection, HE (who IS the Resurrection) IS OUR HOPE to know the power of His.

The only thing that is PAST in regard to what Christ "has done" and "finished", and did ONLY ONCE and FOR ALL is to DIE FOR SINS. Scriptures tell us this very thing.

Part in the first Resurrection is having part in Him (who IS "the FIRST" and "THE Resurrection").

So please keep in mind when thinking you hear one thing, as in "the Resurrection is past, that is not at all what I meant. I meant it in regard to WHO He is EVEN BEFORE His resurrection that HE HIMSELF "IS" The Resurrection, "WHO" (by nature of WHO HE "IS") WAS, IS, and IS TO COME.

Just thought I would clear that, so others cann understand thats not what "I" personally am saying. In case that is implied concerning "me" either directly or indirectly.

Peace

Daniel
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: alchemist on June 18, 2006, 06:17:49 PM
I'm starting to look into it myself so I can't explain right now but I beleive the reserection itself is a parable hidden in the tora.I'll try to explain later if I get it.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: Deedle on June 18, 2006, 06:38:58 PM
I don't want to get out of the bounds of what is taught here so I'm going to exit the thread. I my self have a lot of thinking and studying to do on this subject. One last quick respone.

Quote
The tares are not in Christ so they can not be the "dead in Christ" can they?


I believe all is in Christ. Most just don't know it yet. Not to be mistaken with "Christ in you".

Act 17:28  
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

These are pagans Paul is talking to. So pagans "live and move and have there being" in God

Rom 11:36  
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things:

Joh 14:20  
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Rom 5:10  
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1Co 1:2  
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co 11:30  
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Many of these Corinthians "that are sactified in Christ Jesus" sleep.

1Th 5:10  
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Deedle  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 18, 2006, 06:45:11 PM
Quote from: bobf
Chrissie,

How can the gathering and burning of the tares be considered a resurrection?   They are gathered out of the kingdom, not into it.

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

The pharisees do not precede the publicans & sinners into the kingdom.  The publicans & sinners precede and lead the pharisees into the kingdom.


Bob,

The field is the world, is it not?

To good seed are the children of the kingdom and the tares are the children of the wicked one, right?

Not exactly.  :shock:

the good seed are the SONS (the word is uihos). The Children of the kingdom are cast out.  :shock:  (coming back to that)

But the harvest comes at the end of the world (age) and the reapers are the angels.

He tells the angels to gather the tares first, and gather the wheat into the barn.

Both are gathered “out of the kingdom�, are they not? Is this not because both are growing together (ALL having been reconciled to God through Christ) until harvest?

If this doesn’t apply to the resurrection what does it apply to, even Ray applies this to the resurrection, does he not? In Matthew, where these verses appear, it says: “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.�

Both are growing together but the righteousness of the kingdom cannot shine forth until the tares have been removed.

How are the tares removed? They are cast into the furnace to be “burned up�.

There is also a difference between a child/servant and a son and what does it say about “the children of the kingdom�?

many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 8:12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/list:u]

Is this not referring to the same things?

All have been reconciled to God through Christ right… so all have been brought into the kingdom of God – as children of God. But all things that “offend� and “them which do iniquity� have to be gathered up (or cast out)… into the furnace to be burned (or into outer darkness). The descriptions are the same, are they not?

 
Where else do we see weeping and gnashing of teeth? In the Lake of Fire, right?

And what does Peter tell us:

think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.[/list:u]

here Peter mentions this "fiery trial" but he says “but let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, etc". Is that not the same description as those who “have their part in the Lake of Fire�? As those who “without� the gates of the city…. where there is NO NIGHT? And where are the children of the kingdom cast? Into "outter darkness" where there is "wailing and gnashing of teeth", right?

Not all have entered into the city, into the New Jerusalem, but all are in the kingdom, as I see it. However, "except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God".

I think I will stop here... that is why I didn't want to get into all of this. As it would take pages and pages to try and explain myself and I do not wish to cause an argument or any controversy.

Blessings,
Chrissie

Oh, and Bob...  where did I say that the Pharisees go in first?

The publicans and harlots go in first (Mat 21:31).
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 18, 2006, 06:53:29 PM
Quote from: Deedle
I believe all is in Christ. Most just don't know it yet. Not to be mistaken with "Christ in you".


I over-posted you Deedle, but yes (this is as I see it as well).... as I said in my post to Bob. Unless we are born again we cannot SEE the kingdom of God. But that doesn't mean that the kingdom is not here.

Even the children of the kingdom are cast out.... not to be confused with the SONS (the good seed).

It is when we receive the spirit of ADOPTION that God send us the spirit of His SON that cries Abba Father!

We are all children and heirs.... but as long as we are a CHILD we differ nothing from the servant, though we be LORD OF ALL.

We WAIT for the manifestation of SONS.

Blessings,
Chrissie

And maybe I should bow out of this thread now, too.   :wink:
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 18, 2006, 07:20:29 PM
Jerreye, (I missed your questions)

We are sealed with the earnest of the spirit, yes. But we are sealed with the earnest of the spirit even as children of God. But we must “move on to perfection�. We must mature. And we cannot do that without Christ IN US.

Yes, I am still in this body of flesh and yes I will one day die. And eventually I will be completely FREE from this body of flesh/death…. But I can be “redeemed� from it even now, through Christ.

Even Paul says:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9  But YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10  And IF CHRIST BE IN YOU, the body is DEAD because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/list:u]

So to answer your question… God willing, I am NO LONGER in the flesh, minding the things of the flesh… but walking after the spirit, if so be that I have the spirit of God dwelling in me.

Blessings,
Chrissie

PS... I was not saying that you made a direct accusation, but the implication is that this line of thinking is to say that the resurrection is past... and that is NOT what this is saying.
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: mercie on June 19, 2006, 06:36:34 AM
Awesome Thread.

Thanks you to all who shared. :D

Christ " in US " Our Hope of Glory.

The Resurrection and the Life. :D  :D
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: bobf on June 19, 2006, 11:17:19 PM
Quote from: chrissiela
Quote from: bobf
Oh, and Bob...  where did I say that the Pharisees go in first?

The publicans and harlots go in first (Mat 21:31).


Chrissie, I must be greatly misunderstanding something you are saying.  But this is the part that made me think what I said (I underlined the key parts).

Quote
Them that are “asleep� are not physically dead people; they are they who are walking in darkness, not having passed from death unto life, not knowing the love of God or one another.

And “those who are ALIVE and remain� (those who are dead ALSO “remain�) will not prevent them; for they will be caught up first (the tares are harvested FIRST; Mat 13:30). THEN “those who are alive and remain" will be caught up together with them.


So my understanding of what you've said is that "them that sleep" are "them walking in darkness" i.e the spiritually dead (pharisees for example).  You say these are "harvested first" and "caught up first".  First relative to whom?  I thought you meant first relative to those who are NOT spiritually dead (i.e. the publicans & sinners).

I apologize for misunderstanding.

God bless,
Bob
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 19, 2006, 11:44:32 PM
Bob,

Ok, I also misunderstood you then , too.  :oops: I wasn't even thinking of that....

I did say that the tares are harvested FIRST, as this is according to scripture, right?

in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.[/list:u]

And what are the tares?

the tares are the children of the wicked one;[/list:u]

So how do *I* 'understand' how this happens?? That the tares, who are the children of the "wicked one" are gathered FIRST  :shock:  (as the scriptures so state!!)??

By kowing that we are ALL 'dead' apart from Christ and that we must ALL go through some sort of judgment or "fiery trial" to have all that "hay, wood and stubble" burned up. Right?

So, as I see it, we ALL start out as "tares". For "to be carnally minded is DEATH". Right?. It is the "enmity against God" and "not subject to the laws of God". Right?

So until we die to the flesh and have that "carnal mind" burned out of us.... and are "born again" (given life through Christ) we cannot even SEE the kingdom of God.

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/list:u]


BUT...  this will not happen to the Pharisses before it happens to the "publicans" and the "harlots"... will it?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, JUDGMENT, MERCY, AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.[/list:u]

Those who DO the will of the Father will enter in FIRST: (Doers, not just hearers!)

A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

Mat 21:29  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, AND WENT.

Mat 21:30  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: AND WENT NOT.

Mat 21:31  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.[/list:u]

The scriptures clearly tell us that the tares are gathered FIRST.... that is why I see it that the harvest has already begun... "for judgment must begin at the house of God"... and the "hay, wood and stubble" has already begun to be "burned up". Hasn't it?

Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; FOR THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE.

Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.[/list:u]

And what did Peter say?

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:[/list:u]

Who did Jesus say were the "reapers"?

and the reapers are the angels.[/list:u]

So look at these:


Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained ANGELS unawares.

Gal 4:14  And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.[/list:u]

Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 19, 2006, 11:45:37 PM
Not sure it's a good idea to keep going on with this discussion, but I did want to answer your question, Bob, and clear that up.

Blessings,
Chrissie
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: bobf on June 20, 2006, 03:42:29 AM
Quote from: chrissiela
Not sure it's a good idea to keep going on with this discussion, but I did want to answer your question, Bob, and clear that up.

Blessings,
Chrissie


Chrissie, I'm so glad you cleared that up for me.  That is exactly the same way I see it.

Last night, I was reading the same passage from Revelation that you quoted.  What struck me is that the harvest is cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Joel also prophesies about the harvest.  Isn't it strange that the harvest is ripe at the time when their wickedness is great?!

Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.  14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

This harvest & winepress judgment leads to the darkening of the sun & moon.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

And these things were fulfilled in those who were added to the church on pentecost.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;  17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:  18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:  19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Blessings,
Bob
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: mercie on June 20, 2006, 06:24:32 AM
Quote
o my understanding of what you've said is that "them that sleep" are "them walking in darkness" i.e the spiritually dead (pharisees for example). You say these are "harvested first" and "caught up first". First relative to whom? I thought you meant first relative to those who are NOT spiritually dead (i.e. the publicans & sinners).


speaking of Which:-

 


 Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre;[/u] with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:  


 Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: [/b]


Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:  


 Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:  


 Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:  


 Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.  


 Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.  
 
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.  
 
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets

There is NO FAITHFULNESS ,INWARD part?



Psa 5:9 For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [[/u]is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 62:4 They only consult to cast [him] down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.


Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


 Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly;[/b] and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God
Title: Eternal Life not promised?
Post by: chrissiela on June 20, 2006, 10:21:08 AM
Amen! Bob. Great verses!!

Glad I cleared that up, then, too.  :wink:

Blessings,
Chrissie  :wink: