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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on September 29, 2007, 03:34:03 AM
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Okay, sometimes i have debates with christians.
I post scripture after scripture, destroying there silly arguments of eternal torture from Jesus Christ. In the end, i simply tell them they despise the Word of God and won't believe the scriptures, so i simply cannot continue debateing with them, to which they reply 'why are you judgeing us? Do you think you are better then us?' ETC...
my question is, am i judgeing them by flat out telling them they despise the Word of God and thats why they wont believe the scriptures?
I certainly do not attack anyone, just the heresy they preach, but am i wrong in doing so?
I Just don't know, i can't find a scripture for it, i certainly know Jesus tore apart the pharisees at every turn, and that 'Friendly rebuke is better then secret love.' However i don't know if i'm 'rebuking' them or 'judging' them, or what am i doing? lol
Thanks for any help.
God bless you all,
Alex
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Greetings Alex,
Here's a passage to read and meditate on: Phil.1:12-20. The verses that jumped out at me in particular: vs.15-18, NKJV, "Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
Also: 2Tim.4:1-5; James 2:12,13
Search your heart brother, judge yourself, and may you find love as the motivating factor.
Your brother in Christ,
G.
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What is the nature behind you doing this?
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It's easy for us to convince (coax) ourselves into believing that we're defending God's Word and not our own ego's. We can be our own biggest hypocrites...
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Hello Alex
We have to treat each other as we would like to be treated and this means if I am dull deaf and blind, I sure would like to be corrected and influenced to see and know the truth. This influence might be sharp or soft but it has to happen to motivate refutation of error.
Is that judgment or kindness?
A detractor detracts from the truth to become the accuser of the brethren. Are you being falsely accused for refuting lies, heresy, false teaching and in coming against idols of the heart with the truth and in tearing down the imaginings of the carnal mind is it not you who are being judged? Well treat such a person if that were youself in those shoes of blindness and persecution. Refute with evidence and the word of God but also balance this advice with the wisdom of knowing that understanding comes only from the Spirit. Your motives will be evaluated by the Spirit. As Bradigans points out, it is good to check them always. :)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Alex,
I believe you are scriptually correct.
Titus 3:9-11 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Aman that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
Also just keep filling up with the word and remember the following verse:
Proverbs 16:1 "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord."
CIY
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Greetings Alex,
Here's a passage to read and meditate on: Phil.1:12-20. The verses that jumped out at me in particular: vs.15-18, NKJV, "Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
Also: 2Tim.4:1-5; James 2:12,13
Search your heart brother, judge yourself, and may you find love as the motivating factor.
Your brother in Christ,
G.
Now that is a good verse to contemplate. thanks for posting.
"Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
Also: 2Tim.4:1-5; James 2:12,13
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Okay to get you an idea of what was said to me, here are some of the things;
This verse is the refutal to deal with. We can listen to all your un orthodox, unbiblical doctrine of demons all day long, but until you exegete Scripture that goes against you, you have nothing to stand on. Dude, why didnt the church fathers and the apostles teach this? They did not. Sproul says that if you discover something in the Bible that has gone over looked by the church for 2000 years, its a good bet to get that idea out of your head. This was never taught, its hard to make points and rebuttles with all the commotion in here. You are not studyed up enough on true Scripture to make any points on anything. This is heresy, and the Epistles Peter wrote were warnings against people like yourself. You pick single verses out of chapters of the Bible, which is not how you exegete Scripture. It cant contradict itself, which is something you are full of. Ive tried to remain civil, but for some reason you have gotten totally out of control already. If universalism is true, what is the point of morality or imitating Christ, which is what ALL christians are supposed to do. So, morality and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, these are refuttles, so there it is. Please explain, and oh yeah, everyone please read carfully what he writes, it'll be good! :)
Some more;
Where is your Babylon? Your interpretation of scripture is not accepted in any country. In China, they are being perscuted and tortured and around the world Christians are being martyred like in no other time in history. They would find your theology insulting. People die for Christ every day. You have made their deaths meaningless with your selfish theolgy that lacks a clear understanding of scripture. Explain your "all will be saved" theology to the persecuted church. Forget the place you consider Babylon. Explain why men and women are dying unnecessarily for thier faith. You have a cheap faith. You are leading others astray into a doctriine that may cause them to go to hell. I pray you do have any followers. You will be accountable for every soul you lead astray with your false doctrine. That is why what you are teaching is so dangerous.
Some more;
Alex, you have a lot of pride. You have a way that seemeth right to you. You act like God. That is dangerous and selfish. You cherry pick scripture to meet your own needs. You fail to understand that your words can be harmful to those who do not know the Word of God. You will not convince those who know the Word of God. This I can be sure. It is those who do not know the Word of God that can be sent to hell because you have taught them there is no hell. That makes your teaching very dangerous.
God sent his son to die for your sins. He did it all for Love. All for you. He wants a a response to His Love. You have taken His life and death on the cross and made it meaningless and you are too blind to know you hurt the God you claim to love by ignoring His Word.
There are some of the things said to me, alot more was said. I certainly was very pationate in speaking towards them, emphasizing my points. Yet i still did it out of love and not anger, though i spoke with great passion, which was sometimes mistaken for hatred or anger, which i assured them it was not. I told them i had nothing against anyone, just the doctrines they taught.
I pretty sure i never said anything negative to anyone, except that they despise the Word of God and that if they won't believe the Word of God, my words will do little to convince them.
They always asked me why i was judgeing them.. and i don't think i am, i mean, thats my thing is, is telling someone the flat out truth, judgeing them?
There it is, answer me this please;
"IS TELLING SOMEONE THE FLAT OUT TRUTH JUDGEING THEM?"
If i can get an answer to that, then i can finaly be at peace of wether indeed i was judgeing, or if i was merely rebuking there nonsence.
Thanks for all the answers guys, you have been a great help.
God bless,
Alex
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What did Ray write about being blind. Even if you shine a torch at blind eyes they still will not see....something like that anyway 8) ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Alex, you are young and if you learn the following lesson early in life you will be much better off. I learned this lesson several years ago, but even then I wish it would have come years earlier.
Don't go to the forums and try and debate with anyone you won't change their minds, if you are not well grounded and learned in your beliefs you will appear foolish, and then our human nature kicks in and we dig ourselves a deeper hole.
You are much better off to make one scriptural, intelligent post and then remain silent. It is your job to sow the seeds, God will make them sprout and grow. If a forum has a thousand people following it, maybe one will send you a personal message wanting to know more.
Blessings
Craig
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Alright craig, thanks, thats great advice. Well you know its the beast within that gets the best of me.
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Alex,
Those responses to you were very interesting. I don't dispute with anyone, and really don't have any contact with Christians, so it's mind boggling to me how mean they are in their posts. I mean, "Alex, you have a lot of pride" seems really judgmental. Anyway, why do you put yourself through this? If they are blind, they are blind. You can't make them see, only God can.
Good advise Craig.
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Hi Alex, I think the following excerpt from "Winning Souls For Jesus" may help:
http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
LIGHT AND SALT DON’T ARGUE OR MAKE NOISE
"Ye are the salt of the earth… Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid… Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:1,14,16).
Salt does not make any noise, and light does not argue Scriptures. Neither salt nor light makes any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there.
Too many people learn a few truths of God and think that they are ready to take on the world. They usually start by trying to embarrass their Pastor with their new-gained knowledge. Usually they fall flat on their face on the very first try. It’s all about motivation. If your motivation is carnal, God will not back you. Yes, I know, all of you are saying: "But my motivation is to show them God’s truths." Yes, sure, I understand, but THEY DON’T WANT TO HEAR GOD’S TRUTHS, and you already know this, so what is your point? Leave them alone and let them taste your salt and see your light and admire your good works, and perchance they will even praise God for your new-found humility,
You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God’s Word. As salesmen are often taught: "You might win the argument, but loose the sale," so don’t argue. And this: "He who is persuaded against his will; is of the same opinion still."
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Alex,
Those responses to you were very interesting. I don't dispute with anyone, and really don't have any contact with Christians, so it's mind boggling to me how mean they are in their posts. I mean, "Alex, you have a lot of pride" seems really judgmental. Anyway, why do you put yourself through this? If they are blind, they are blind. You can't make them see, only God can.
Good advise Craig.
Well i've always been drawn and had a motivation to teach God's truths one day, like ray does, so i really don't know... they never hurt me with there words i gaurentee you that, and i certainly am very calm, though full of passion, when i speak.
I guess its like a testing ground i don't know lol. I mean i don't do this very often, but sometimes i just have this urge to talk to some christians and see how they react to the scriptures. It's almost as if i'm testing myself, to see how heresy proof i can be... i don't know, i really don't.
Well God bless, i'm off to lunch!
Btw zvezda, ty for that post, it was a great reminder, i really need to read through some of these articles again.
In Christ with love,
Alex
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Alex I agree with Craig.
I also would remind you that we are all slaves of Christ. Everything in this world is His.
(2Ti 2:15 KJVR) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(2Ti 2:25 KJVR) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
(2Ti 2:26 KJVR) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
As a slave your job is to present the Word of your Master.
He will do all that is necessary. If not today then some day
If they treat you badly ...bear it......
From all the scriptures we are to expect this so I do not understand why you are surprised or confused.
They accused you of judging. This was a offensive move by them to put you on the defensive. It is an old trick used many times by the enemy when confronted with truth.
You are not judging them .....the WORD IS. And they do not like it one bit. TOUCHE' LORD.
Beloved
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Alex I agree with Craig.
I also would remind you that we are all slaves of Christ. Everything in this world is His.
(2Ti 2:15 KJVR) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(2Ti 2:25 KJVR) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
(2Ti 2:26 KJVR) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
As a slave your job is to present the Word of your Master.
He will do all that is necessary. If not today then some day
If they treat you badly ...bear it......
From all the scriptures we are to expect this so I do not understand why you are surprised or confused.
They accused you of judging. This was a offensive move by them to put you on the defensive. It is an old trick used many times by the enemy when confronted with truth.
You are not judging them .....the WORD IS. And they do not like it one bit. TOUCHE' LORD.
Beloved
Wow beloved, that was such an awsome reply, thank you so much!
Btw, i am not surprised one bit as to how this went, i was wondering however if i was judgeing them byt elling them they despise the Word of God, but infact you are right, i am not judgeing them, the Word of God is.
Amen and thank you!
God bless,
Alex
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Hello Beloved
This rings so true what you observe here in italics : They accused you .....( The accuser of the brethren. The guilt trip vendors and traders of iniquity. Eph 6 : 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ) This was a offensive move by them ( They can do no less for they are carnal, worldly minded and are performing the tests necessary to our deliverance from our own carnality and its temptations to pride, superiority and self deception ) to put you on the defensive.( I see the wider application here as it refers to all circumstances that would put us on the defense rather than being spiritually strong enough in the likeness of Christ who could turn the other cheek. Once we have overcome we are more adept at seeing errors, deceptions and temptations for what they are and for what purpose they have in coming against us in our lives. They are for me tests, trials, gambits and ploys to take our eyes off of Christ and His plan in our lives to become conformed to His image through coming to experience evil and know its content making us enter His Kingdom through such tribulations. ) It is an old trick used many times by the enemy ( and when we see and know this is evil and gain therefore a knowledge of evil through our trials and experiences, then we through the Power of His Spirit may be salvaged from our own weakness failures and liabilities to that temptation as He has overcome the world and instills in us His Spirit of His Triumph Wisdom Knowledge and Understanding. ).............
All in the process :)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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::)
YES it is judging. You are treating others as you may be treated. ( mathew, for with what judgment you render, it will be rendered against you)
I guess it is one thing to "defend" the faith.......btu it is another to "pick a fight"
And to say in your emotion....that THEY are dispising the scripture,
is ....erm.......something other than you looking on your brother with love and compassion. How about not indulging the need to be right, and correct another person? Argument doesnt gain listeners.
But then, in a chat room, one almost has to argue to get someone to look at it. Would it not be a better conversation to glory in Christ and share your lives and other lessons in unity of spirit?
i thik the verse say to be ready to answer IF THEY ASK..... but you ought to be living the relationship that your new knowledge as afforded you, that they might have cause to ask.
we ought not to be stuck in our "being rightness"
we ought to be living in the , hi ya Jesus, what are we doing? NOWness.
No argument is more convincing of the wisdom and power of the spirit behind your new leanrings and understandings. For if you can only live these when you carry about the facts in your mind, you will tire quickly and end in confusion.
IZM
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Hey! lil Alex bo,
First of all how U been lil bo? wow! by dis Thread pretty Good bo lol! :), must admit bo I aint read all da Posts but I know wot ur askn n e wayz :), Well, my opinion is, GOD is in CONTROL!! Alwayz has AlwayZ! Will be, brother! it was a daily acurance 4 me 2 once upon a time lol!, az u say U r not arguing! jus defending GODS Word Truthfully!, Passionately!, :) I believed I was over passionate!abit azwell haha!, But! n e way I jus let da spirit! guide me & I usually alwayz got dis answer in my head. "It is between U!! & GOD & has nothing 2 do wit n e 1 else az 2 wot they say or do, az GOD had a Plan & Purpose 4 U b4 U were even Born & each & EveryonE! of US!". So brother I believe! deeply! do wot U really Think & know wot GOD is saying/guiding woteva! & do it wit Passion! or how eva! :) lol! I sure do hahaha!. Well I hope U can understand wot Im saying brother!?, jus know! GOD is with U. GODBLESS! U! & ur family ma bo Alex, BlesSuP! PeacE! 2 U
much muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. dis is my personal!! feelings on dis thread, been der & still r lol! :), PraisE! the LORD! in AbundancE!!!!!
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i think there is quet people living out there that are faithful with what life had showed to them, and had already learn some lessons thorugh sufferings, i think that used time to try to look for this people, try to show them some real love, and persuade them to take on consideration what you have to say is better than go directly just to all this almost robots extremely religious people that will split you over your face anything that you has to say. Anyways i guess if you are on a forum and more people is waching your words, then some of this people on the forum could be the ones who will quetly listenn you.
if it is all according to god's will and timeing for us to know or to dont know since we are on this age, then the ones who are extremly religous now and dont know how to listen could become someday the quet people that are able to put on consideration some of this truths.
i was one of them at some point of my life and then,,,god changed and is chaging my mind of many old preconsevided stupid ideas that used to control my way of living, just like many on this forum i bet.
and like others said i also think it is all about motivations and our real intentions on why we do whatever we do.
i hope i am seeing right on this one and that we all could become experts on judgeng right our motivations as far as we can see them.
moises
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::)
YES it is judging. You are treating others as you may be treated. ( mathew, for with what judgment you render, it will be rendered against you)
I guess it is one thing to "defend" the faith.......btu it is another to "pick a fight"
And to say in your emotion....that THEY are dispising the scripture,
is ....erm.......something other than you looking on your brother with love and compassion. How about not indulging the need to be right, and correct another person? Argument doesnt gain listeners.
But then, in a chat room, one almost has to argue to get someone to look at it. Would it not be a better conversation to glory in Christ and share your lives and other lessons in unity of spirit?
i thik the verse say to be ready to answer IF THEY ASK..... but you ought to be living the relationship that your new knowledge as afforded you, that they might have cause to ask.
we ought not to be stuck in our "being rightness"
we ought to be living in the , hi ya Jesus, what are we doing? NOWness.
No argument is more convincing of the wisdom and power of the spirit behind your new leanrings and understandings. For if you can only live these when you carry about the facts in your mind, you will tire quickly and end in confusion.
IZM
IZM,
My big problem is, can i really say these people are my BROTHERS and SISTERS in Christ, when they preach a Christ who will eternal torture most of humanity in a terrorist hell hole of fire?
That is a question, that i would love to have answered, because i don't know.
I certainly don't feel like they are, they preach ANOTHER Christ, that the scriptures know not.
So in this thought, am i still judgeing in what i did?
God bless,
Alex
P.S. I woudl certainly NEVER treat a BROTHER or SISTER in Christ, with the same zeal that i did these people or ever tell them they 'despise the Word of God,' because this i know would not be true.
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Hey! lil Alex bo,
First of all how U been lil bo? wow! by dis Thread pretty Good bo lol! :), must admit bo I aint read all da Posts but I know wot ur askn n e wayz :), Well, my opinion is, GOD is in CONTROL!! Alwayz has AlwayZ! Will be, brother! it was a daily acurance 4 me 2 once upon a time lol!, az u say U r not arguing! jus defending GODS Word Truthfully!, Passionately!, :) I believed I was over passionate!abit azwell haha!, But! n e way I jus let da spirit! guide me & I usually alwayz got dis answer in my head. "It is between U!! & GOD & has nothing 2 do wit n e 1 else az 2 wot they say or do, az GOD had a Plan & Purpose 4 U b4 U were even Born & each & EveryonE! of US!". So brother I believe! deeply! do wot U really Think & know wot GOD is saying/guiding woteva! & do it wit Passion! or how eva! :) lol! I sure do hahaha!. Well I hope U can understand wot Im saying brother!?, jus know! GOD is with U. GODBLESS! U! & ur family ma bo Alex, BlesSuP! PeacE! 2 U
much muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. dis is my personal!! feelings on dis thread, been der & still r lol! :), PraisE! the LORD! in AbundancE!!!!!
Pera, once again you cease to amaze me! Always bringing a smile to my face, i love you bro and i mean that one like i would love any of my brothers! You mean that much to me. Thanks for the early morning smile! I agree, God is in controle, even in the mistakes i make, if that be the case here.
Thanks for such an uplifiting message pera, it was a beautiful personal message, and i loved it! It really means alot to me and you reminded me of the basic important things i need to keep reminding myself of!
Thanks and God bless you brother, and your family as well!!! God is WITH YOU also! Always and forever =]
With love in our Father,
Alex
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i think there is quet people living out there that are faithful with what life had showed to them, and had already learn some lessons thorugh sufferings, i think that used time to try to look for this people, try to show them some real love, and persuade them to take on consideration what you have to say is better than go directly just to all this almost robots extremely religious people that will split you over your face anything that you has to say. Anyways i guess if you are on a forum and more people is waching your words, then some of this people on the forum could be the ones who will quetly listenn you.
if it is all according to god's will and timeing for us to know or to dont know since we are on this age, then the ones who are extremly religous now and dont know how to listen could become someday the quet people that are able to put on consideration some of this truths.
i was one of them at some point of my life and then,,,god changed and is chaging my mind of many old preconsevided stupid ideas that used to control my way of living, just like many on this forum i bet.
and like others said i also think it is all about motivations and our real intentions on why we do whatever we do.
i hope i am seeing right on this one and that we all could become experts on judgeng right our motivations as far as we can see them.
moises
Hey moises! Thanks for the imput, i appreciate it. I'm not sure if you are a guy or a girl, so um.. thank you brother/sister! :)
Great imput, and yes alot of us, used to believe these stupid ideas, as you said. Convinced of them? Well thats another story :D
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Moises,
It's true, you never know who is reading your words when you post on a forum, and like you said, there may be some quiet people out there who don't post and you may totally bless them with your words.
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My big problem is, can i really say these people are my BROTHERS and SISTERS in Christ, when they preach a Christ who will eternal torture most of humanity in a terrorist hell hole of fire?
That is a question, that i would love to have answered, because i don't know.
I certainly don't feel like they are, they preach ANOTHER Christ, that the scriptures know not.
So in this thought, am i still judgeing in what i did?
PS. I woudl certainly NEVER treat a BROTHER or SISTER in Christ, with the same zeal that i did these people or ever tell them they 'despise the Word of God,' because this i know would not be true.
1Cor.3:11-15. (The hay and straw will be burned, but the individual will be saved.) Judge but don't condemn. Love them, believer and unbeliever alike. For most of us here on the forum were once enemies of the cross and first exposed to the love of God through the "church" where the seed of faith was planted. They have the hard task of tilling the ground, preparing for the seed to be planted. We have the easier task of bringing in the harvest. Speak the truth in love.
G.
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Is it not done out of love though, to tell them that what they preach is a LIE?
I guess its like that old saying; "Friends don't let friends drink and drive."
It might sound MEAN and RUDE to tell someone they CAN'T and SHOULDN'T drive when there drunk, but it certainly is DONE OUT OF LOVE.
Is not what i did, by telling them the truth, the same thing? I Certainly did out of love, and with passion and zeal, but like i said it was done out of love.
I guess you guys just don't know the whole story so its hard for you to give me a good assesement, i guess i just need scripture.
Who is our brother and sister in Christ? Are there any scriptures that make it plain and obviouse?
Is it wrong to tell people the obviouse truth? Is that not LOVEING?
Proverbs says; "A friendly rebuke is better then secret love."
I assure you, i was being honost, and it was a FRIENDLY REBUKE, but sometimes the TRUTH HURTS. So was i WRONG still in TELLING THE TRUTH?
I just don't know sometimes, some of you guys are makeing me think, telling them the straight up truth was wrong.
God bless,
Alex
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If the church is the mother,that is the structured organized church many, if not most of us got saved, if you will under.Doesn't that make her children our brothers. Even Jesus was birthed by a natural sinful mother. Most of us were birthed through the church. Mom will always be loved and respected and her children will always be family,even the ones that drink to much and embarrass us, they are Gods children and our brothers. If we are who we suppose we are ,we are to be the mature older brother that does not not feed steak to babies but rather milk,or what there bodies can tolerate. God is responsible for watching over his seed,not us.He is the daddy. God knows I watch over my seed,and I don't need another man to do my job for me.Now God can use anyone of us to help our brothers and if it is God that leads you to help, I believe you will know, he will give you a peace that requires no human feedback to be sure of.
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Is it not done out of love though, to tell them that what they preach is a LIE?
I guess its like that old saying; "Friends don't let friends drink and drive."
It might sound MEAN and RUDE to tell someone they CAN'T and SHOULDN'T drive when there drunk, but it certainly is DONE OUT OF LOVE.
Is not what i did, by telling them the truth, the same thing? I Certainly did out of love, and with passion and zeal, but like i said it was done out of love.
I guess you guys just don't know the whole story so its hard for you to give me a good assesement, i guess i just need scripture.
Who is our brother and sister in Christ? Are there any scriptures that make it plain and obviouse?
Is it wrong to tell people the obviouse truth? Is that not LOVEING?
Proverbs says; "A friendly rebuke is better then secret love."
I assure you, i was being honost, and it was a FRIENDLY REBUKE, but sometimes the TRUTH HURTS. So was i WRONG still in TELLING THE TRUTH?
I just don't know sometimes, some of you guys are makeing me think, telling them the straight up truth was wrong.
God bless,
Alex
You're correct that none of us were there. And even if we were, only you and God know the true motives of your heart. It sounds like you do know in your own conscience, but are seeking reassurance from men. Don't condemn yourself for what you believe then (James 1:5-8/Rom 14:22,23). I agree that it is a better way to speak the truth and face rejection from men. But, take responsibility for your self, not for how those respond to the truth. That's on them. The message may be 100% true, but if you do not present it in a manner that is perceived by the audience to be friendly, loving, as opposed to argumentive, they will not be willing to receive it. Don't try to force feed meat to the baby. Even milk needs to be put in a bottle with a nipple so that it will be received. (Hope you know what I'm trying to say.) ;D
G.
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Moises,
I agree with what you said
"and like others said i also think it is all about motivations and our real intentions on why we do whatever we do."
It is not about the way you act or if you make yourself talk nicely. It is what is the intention of your heart?
People say all of the time act like Jesus and then people will see Jesus in you. Do not be speaking it, but act it. Well I have seen many religious people act good all of their life, but the love of God was not in them. You must act and speak whatever is in your heart. If you act like Jesus, then He is not in you. Keep worshipping, praying, meditating on the word until you are acting out of your heart and it is Jesus.
Christ in you is the hope of glory. We must become Jesus through Christ.
CIY
-
Hi Alex,
I see you are still struggling with this issue. I found a couple of emails, to see what Ray says on such matters. Hope this will be of help :)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3703.0.html -----
Ray,
> I saw this posting on the internet and I was wondering what you thought
> of it: (Article refuting universal salvation)
> Bill
Dear Bill:
If you don't understand the mind of a Christian you will never understand why people like me do not usually debate them. Let's say that they bring up a point (about anything) and you have Scripture that speaks directly to this point. Can you quote that Scripture to a Christian to make your point? NO, no you can't. Why is that? Because the second you quote it (according to them) you TOOK IT OUT OF CONTEXT. And to them, no Scripture is true "out of context." "God is love" (I John 4:8), but ONLY IN THE CONTEXT OF I John 4:8. You cannot just quote a Scripture and believe that it is a statement of fact or statement of eternal truth. They won't hear of it. But don't they quote Scripture to support their views. Yes, of course they do, but they use them IN CONTEXT. Who determines whether their use is in context and your use is not in context? Why THEY DO, of course, and that is because they understand hermeneutics and you don't. See the difference? I don't either, but that's just the way it is. If you can corner a snake in a briar patch, then you can debate a Christian with the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2633.0.html -------
We see that Jesus several times calls the pharisees hypocrites, blind fools, blind guides...etc. And in Matthew 5:21-23. Jesus commands us not to otherwise will be in danger of the fire of hell. Isn't this contradicting to His teachings?.
I know you receive tons of e-mails everyday, but I would appreciate it if you give me couple minutes of your time and answer my question.
May God Bless You,
Tony
Dear Tony:
We must learn to read more carefully. Every word is important. Here is what Jesus said: "But I say unto That whosoever is angry with HIS BROTHER....and whosoever shall say to HIS BROTHER, Raca...." (Matt. 5:22).
These lying, two-faced, blaspheming hypocrites were not Jesus' "brothers." Here are those who are Christ's "BROTHERS": "For whosoever shall DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven, the same IS MY BROTHER...." (Matt. 12:50). Contrarywise, "whosoever shall NOT do the will of My father is NOT my brother..." This is because "Ye [same scribes and Pharisees] are of YOUR FATHER [not Christ's FAther, but YOUR father] THE DEVIL" (John 8:44).
God be with you,
Ray
-
These lying, two-faced, blaspheming hypocrites were not Jesus' "brothers."
Here are those who are Christ's "BROTHERS": "For whosoever shall DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven, the same IS MY BROTHER...." (Matt. 12:50). Contrarywise, "whosoever shall NOT do the will of My father is NOT my brother..." This is because "Ye [same scribes and Pharisees] are of YOUR FATHER [not Christ's FAther, but YOUR father] THE DEVIL" (John 8:44).
God be with you,
Ray
yet we know that those two faced pharisees, with hardened hearts are:
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
I find it amazing, that if one can not "see" the gospel, rather than judge them, we actually should be thankful for them, because through their hardening came our mercy
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
weird
-
Alex bo! this is dedicated to you!!! Take a look at this......click on the link below
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=492fed4d19999a813009
My wife did this for me. lol. She was reading your thread and reckon to put this video clip from GOD tube on here for you and everyone to see.
REALLY HITS THE SPOT!!! and beleive this is how you feel!!!!!
muchLOVE!! Pera
P.s You are an example we all should follow, jus like in this clip....everyone must of noticed by now....lol....that this is not me typing this post. hahaha
-
On the subject of judging here from Ray.
Most Christians have a one-sided and often evil concept of judgment. They think of it primarily as a negative and horrible thing that wicked people must go through before being sentenced to some fabled fiery hellhole of torture and eternal damnation.
Judgment is not reserved exclusively for the wicked, nor is it a one-sided sentence of doom. There are many problems with the orthodox teaching of judgment. Much emphasis is placed on a few Scriptures taken out of the context of all of God’s counsel regarding judgment.
,
,
,
Judgment has both a positive and a negative side. That is judgment itself contains both. The result of the two faces of judgment, however, I am happy to report, will not perpetuate the dual masks of comedy and tragedy for all eternity, but rather a "smiley face" for all.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
For me, human judgment is beam in the eye fault finding. God's judgment brings to righteousness and "that smiley face for all "
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
::)
YES it is judging. You are treating others as you may be treated. ( mathew, for with what judgment you render, it will be rendered against you)
No argument is more convincing of the wisdom and power of the spirit behind your new leanrings and understandings. For if you can only live these when you carry about the facts in your mind, you will tire quickly and end in confusion.
IZM
IZM,
My big problem is, can i really say these people are my BROTHERS and SISTERS in Christ, when they preach a Christ who will eternal torture most of humanity in a terrorist hell hole of fire?..............Will you go off and defend against the Buddhist who DONT preach torture or even a Christ who Died for them? How is this not an act of pride and seeking to be correct? You are useing argument by outrage. A tactic.[/I]
That is a question, that i would love to have answered, because i don't know.
I certainly don't feel like they are, they preach ANOTHER Christ, that the scriptures know not...... WHo is my brother?
Is my brother only he who knows as i do?
Is my brother ANY of those who WILL KNOW as God does?
Who was the Good Samaritian's brother?
Clearly the beat up jewish man preached a Different gospel then him, they did not argue first then consider themselves brothers, before the Man took him to the inn. They did not even feel like brothers.[/I]
So in this thought, am i still judgeing in what i did?
God bless,
Alex
P.S. I woudl certainly NEVER treat a BROTHER or SISTER in Christ, with the same zeal that i did these people or ever tell them they 'despise the Word of God,' because this i know would not be true.
I am sorry about the fact that i am posting in disagreement with you. But from your own defence about yourself, you seem to be conflicted, you ask because you already know your verdict. I am not intending to go to war with you.
Only see that you already are not sure about the actions. I can see the other person when right on the defencive, and without seeing your end of the conversation i cannot see where you where. But i can see you defence now.
You have alluded to "another gospel" i wanted to toss two verses your way to compare. Acts 20:24 , and Mark 4:23 .......
Who is our brother? Before Jesus chose me, i dispised the word. and he was my brother. May we be able to apply the same gentleness with those who (according to our gospel) will one day BE our brothers, in the knowledge of the Lord.
Who knows the Lord?
Those to whom the Lord reveals himself.
Did the Lord reveal himself to you so that you may have rightness and reproove your brother, or so that the Lord might reveal himself to your brother through your love? Perhaps both.
WELL I DONT KNOW..........personally i would rather be carefull in how i judge, let it be with mercy and undersanding because i crave that the Lord applyies mercy and undertanding to my sinnfull behind.
Much love.........may we have dissagreed in peace.....and may you be blessed in peace.
Justine[/I]
-
Another insight into this topic.
Dear Robert:
Jesus DIED: "...for the ungodly" (Rom. 5:6); "...unto sin" (Rom. 6:10); "...for our sins" (I Cor. 5:3); "...for all" (II Cor. 5:15); "...for us" (I Thes. 5:10, but nowhere does it say He died for our judgment or for our forgiveness. Christ was judged for nothing. We are not "considered judged" as though it happened in the past at the cross and therefore has no more place in our life. Likewise, Jesus did not die for our "forgiveness."
Long after the crucifixion and cross of Jesus, Peter tells us that "Judgment begins [yet, still] at the house of God...." (I Pet. 4:17). We must yet, still REPENT of our sins and CONFESS them (I John 1:8-9). Christ's death on the cross did not and does not adjudicate as innocent, ALL ARE GUILTY SINNERS.
Jesus paid the penalty for all sin at the cross: He did not make all sinners SAINTS at the cross. Hence, we all need judging.
God be with you,
Ray http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2289.0.html
-
Hi Alex,
I see you are still struggling with this issue. I found a couple of emails, to see what Ray says on such matters. Hope this will be of help :)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3703.0.html -----
Ray,
> I saw this posting on the internet and I was wondering what you thought
> of it: (Article refuting universal salvation)
> Bill
Dear Bill:
If you don't understand the mind of a Christian you will never understand why people like me do not usually debate them. Let's say that they bring up a point (about anything) and you have Scripture that speaks directly to this point. Can you quote that Scripture to a Christian to make your point? NO, no you can't. Why is that? Because the second you quote it (according to them) you TOOK IT OUT OF CONTEXT. And to them, no Scripture is true "out of context." "God is love" (I John 4:8), but ONLY IN THE CONTEXT OF I John 4:8. You cannot just quote a Scripture and believe that it is a statement of fact or statement of eternal truth. They won't hear of it. But don't they quote Scripture to support their views. Yes, of course they do, but they use them IN CONTEXT. Who determines whether their use is in context and your use is not in context? Why THEY DO, of course, and that is because they understand hermeneutics and you don't. See the difference? I don't either, but that's just the way it is. If you can corner a snake in a briar patch, then you can debate a Christian with the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2633.0.html -------
We see that Jesus several times calls the pharisees hypocrites, blind fools, blind guides...etc. And in Matthew 5:21-23. Jesus commands us not to otherwise will be in danger of the fire of hell. Isn't this contradicting to His teachings?.
I know you receive tons of e-mails everyday, but I would appreciate it if you give me couple minutes of your time and answer my question.
May God Bless You,
Tony
Dear Tony:
We must learn to read more carefully. Every word is important. Here is what Jesus said: "But I say unto That whosoever is angry with HIS BROTHER....and whosoever shall say to HIS BROTHER, Raca...." (Matt. 5:22).
These lying, two-faced, blaspheming hypocrites were not Jesus' "brothers." Here are those who are Christ's "BROTHERS": "For whosoever shall DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven, the same IS MY BROTHER...." (Matt. 12:50). Contrarywise, "whosoever shall NOT do the will of My father is NOT my brother..." This is because "Ye [same scribes and Pharisees] are of YOUR FATHER [not Christ's FAther, but YOUR father] THE DEVIL" (John 8:44).
God be with you,
Ray
Thank you so much kat! That is exactly what i was feeling, these people are NOT my brothers in sister, no one that teaches what they do is.
With love in Christ,
Alex
-
::)
YES it is judging. You are treating others as you may be treated. ( mathew, for with what judgment you render, it will be rendered against you)
No argument is more convincing of the wisdom and power of the spirit behind your new leanrings and understandings. For if you can only live these when you carry about the facts in your mind, you will tire quickly and end in confusion.
IZM
IZM,
My big problem is, can i really say these people are my BROTHERS and SISTERS in Christ, when they preach a Christ who will eternal torture most of humanity in a terrorist hell hole of fire?..............Will you go off and defend against the Buddhist who DONT preach torture or even a Christ who Died for them? How is this not an act of pride and seeking to be correct? You are useing argument by outrage. A tactic.[/I]
That is a question, that i would love to have answered, because i don't know.
I certainly don't feel like they are, they preach ANOTHER Christ, that the scriptures know not...... WHo is my brother?
Is my brother only he who knows as i do?
Is my brother ANY of those who WILL KNOW as God does?
Who was the Good Samaritian's brother?
Clearly the beat up jewish man preached a Different gospel then him, they did not argue first then consider themselves brothers, before the Man took him to the inn. They did not even feel like brothers.[/I]
So in this thought, am i still judgeing in what i did?
God bless,
Alex
P.S. I woudl certainly NEVER treat a BROTHER or SISTER in Christ, with the same zeal that i did these people or ever tell them they 'despise the Word of God,' because this i know would not be true.
I am sorry about the fact that i am posting in disagreement with you. But from your own defence about yourself, you seem to be conflicted, you ask because you already know your verdict. I am not intending to go to war with you.
Only see that you already are not sure about the actions. I can see the other person when right on the defencive, and without seeing your end of the conversation i cannot see where you where. But i can see you defence now.
You have alluded to "another gospel" i wanted to toss two verses your way to compare. Acts 20:24 , and Mark 4:23 .......
Who is our brother? Before Jesus chose me, i dispised the word. and he was my brother. May we be able to apply the same gentleness with those who (according to our gospel) will one day BE our brothers, in the knowledge of the Lord.
Who knows the Lord?
Those to whom the Lord reveals himself.
Did the Lord reveal himself to you so that you may have rightness and reproove your brother, or so that the Lord might reveal himself to your brother through your love? Perhaps both.
WELL I DONT KNOW..........personally i would rather be carefull in how i judge, let it be with mercy and undersanding because i crave that the Lord applyies mercy and undertanding to my sinnfull behind.
Much love.........may we have dissagreed in peace.....and may you be blessed in peace.
Justine[/I]
Well i don't remember saying they preach another gospel and i also don't think i'm on the 'defense' because i didn't feel 'attacked' in the first place.
I'm simply looking for insight from my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I don't feel what i did was judgeing but i was looking for clarification so i may learn and grow.
I guess i don't understand what your saying to me, words like 'verdict' and those things, are alittle to big for me.
God bless,
Alex
-
Alex bo! this is dedicated to you!!! Take a look at this......click on the link below
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=492fed4d19999a813009
My wife did this for me. lol. She was reading your thread and reckon to put this video clip from GOD tube on here for you and everyone to see.
REALLY HITS THE SPOT!!! and beleive this is how you feel!!!!!
muchLOVE!! Pera
P.s You are an example we all should follow, jus like in this clip....everyone must of noticed by now....lol....that this is not me typing this post. hahaha
Haha, thanks pera, tell your wife, thank you as well! Great video brother. I really enjoyed it. Yea i figured that wasn't you typing :P
To arcturus:
Thank you for this insights, i really hope ray writes a whole article on judgeing and who is our brother and sister in Christ, because i still need more clarification on all this. I do feel that those who preach a Christ who will eternaly torture His creation forever, is not my brother or sister, but then again from what rocky posted, it seems like things aren't so black and white. Haha, but i guess thats the way our Father loves do things, and i don't mind searching them out!
God bless you both and all!
Alex
-
Greetings Alex,
These people may not be your "brothers" but we are still warned to be careful in how/what we say to them:
Jude
[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending (arguing) with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[22] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
I pray that God will give you the wisdom to speak/not speak the "right" words or what actions to take/not take when dealing with the "others" mentioned in vs.23.
Keep the faith.
G.
-
Greetings Alex,
These people may not be your "brothers" but we are still warned to be careful in how/what we say to them:
Jude
[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending (arguing) with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[22] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
I pray that God will give you the wisdom to speak/not speak the "right" words or what actions to take/not take when dealing with the "others" mentioned in vs.23.
Keep the faith.
G.
Greg brother! Thank you! That is and was the best thing you could say! Prayer for such wisdom, is all i could ask for =]
Thank you, and great scripture, i luved it.
God bless,
Alex
-
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
When did the Father pronounce him "beloved Son"
before of after he was led into the wilderness to be tried and tempted.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
And here, Paul addresses carnal Christians as bretheren:
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.
Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
We are an heir by faith, not by works of the law. To me this is the dividing point between bretheren vs non bretheren. We are stil bretheren before and during the wilderness trial if we have faith in the cross, not in the works of the law;
IMO, God doesn't require us to be fully mature before we are brothers.
-
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
When did the Father pronounce him "beloved Son"
before of after he was led into the wilderness to be tried and tempted.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
And here, Paul addresses carnal Christians as bretheren:
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.
Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
We are an heir by faith, not by works of the law. To me this is the dividing point between bretheren vs non bretheren. We are stil bretheren before and during the wilderness trial if we have faith in the cross, not in the works of the law;
IMO, God doesn't require us to be fully mature before we are brothers.
Yea but rocky it's not as black and white as you make it seem.
There are the scriptures in which Christ called 'THE JEWS THAT BELIEVED ON HIM' of their father THE DEVIL.
Who are the 'jews that believed on him' today? Christ does not change. Is it not christendom, that believes on Christ, yet cries 'crucify him' at every turn? I'm not saying we are any better people of our own, but i think God has called us out of this darkness, so that we are not apart of it.
So are they are bretheren, or are they of the devil? You see what i'm saying? It's not so black and white, atleast to me it isn't. I guess i just need to prayu about this a whole lot.
God bless and thanks for your imput,
Alex
-
Again, how could Paul call carnal Christians bretheren??
-
Again, how could Paul call carnal Christians bretheren??
I really don't know.. i wish i had the answers.. i'm gonna pray. Perhaps you do. God bless you for that, for me, i just need to pray and perhaps you could pray for me as well.
God bless,
Alex
-
Again, how could Paul call carnal Christians bretheren??
I really don't know.. i wish i had the answers.. i'm gonna pray. Perhaps you do. God bless you for that, for me, i just need to pray and perhaps you could pray for me as well.
God bless,
Alex
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
-
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
-
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
cursed is everyone that hangs onto the works of the law.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
-
If you read my post about the church being the Mother you have no argument from me Rocky.
-
Yea but rocky it's not as black and white as you make it seem.
Alex
Hi Alex, i've been thinking about this throughout the day, and this verse came to my mind.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I agree, it's not black and white from an external viewpoint, but from an individual standpoint, it's what's in the heart that counts.
what does one have to believe in their heart in order to be saved?? God hath raised him from the dead.
I don't believe one has to be mature, and at that point have a heart change.
It is pretty black and white to me, "believe in your heart that God has raised HIM from the dead"
Maturity comes from suffering, trials, and our walk in the wilderness.
And yes, many will die in the wilderness, not stay faithful and be found naked at the Day of the Lord, rather than clothed with Him.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
For me, when the heart change has occurred, these are the internal results:
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
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Hi Moises,
Yes, I think that God can change anybody's mind anytime anywhere. Sometimes we think that He really needs us to do something for this to be accomplished, and He does use us. But like Paul changed his mind in two seconds, God can do the same for anyone else. For me, it takes the pressure and the burden off my shoulders and I can relax knowing God is in control. I have a hard time remembering scriptures, and can't debate well or even present my thoughts, especially if I'm nervous. But I guess God uses me in other ways.
So I really admire those who can debate well and know how to teach, and God uses them in this capacity. I'm sure many people get blessed by the people on the forum.
Ursula
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Hi Rocky,
Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.
I don't think Jesus had to prove anything to be considered the Son of God, He was the Son of the Most High by being born of the Holy Spirit. He always Referred to God as His Father, while on earth, even as a child He referred to God as His Father.
Luke 2:49 And He said to them, Why did you look for Me? Do you not know that I must be about My Father's business?
John 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven.
Mat 12:50 For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother.
Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.
Col 1:23 .....of which I, Paul, became a minister,
v. 24 who now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf, and I fill up the things lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh, on behalf of His body, which is the church;
v. 25 of which I became a minister, according to the administration of God given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God;
He wrote those letters to the people that He and the other Apostles had taught the truth and were continuing to minister to them. These were those scattered groups of brethren he was ministering to by sending them these letters, and I would think there were babes that were yet carnal in these groups.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
But in this scripture, I think Paul is asking a sarcastic question, because this is not what they should be doing.
A few scriptures down he ask another question, saying they should be living right if the Holy Spirit is indwelling or God will deal with them.
1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
v. 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
Just the way I see this in the scripture.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Kat,
I wanted to thank you for what you posted.
To rocky;
I wanted to be honost and say that what you are telling me, is not going well with the spirit inside me.
I just can't see how those who preach a Christ who will eternaly torture most of His creation are my 'brothers and sisters.' This isn't even the Christ of the gospel, and as kat said, i felt that those whom paul was calling bretheren in the scriptures were for the called AND chosen and not decieved carnal minded christians.
I just don't know how you would explain Christ calling the jews that believed on him, OF THE DEVIL. I mean.. isn't that alittle judgemental of Jesus if they are His brothers and sisters?
I might be wrong for saying this, and if i am then somebody let me know, but i feel that those who preach this get rich burn the unbelievers god of christendom are of the devil and speak lies...
I'm not trying to say i'm better then them, i know its because of God and His mercy, but does that mean i should lie and pertended as though they are my brother and sisters when they certainly don't believe in the same Jesus that i do?
I just don't understand.. you can't have a Christ that is gonna BURN EVERYONE and a Christ that is gonna SAVE EVERYONE. Which Jesus do you follow? Who follows that Jesus? Are not those that follow the Jesus CHrist you do, which is hopefully the one whom died to show the his love for all his creation and whom will one day save all them, are they not your brothers and sisters and not these other people who worship this other god made up in there own minds?
God forgive me if i am deeply mistaken, a blind man cannot see his own steps, so if i am misguided here then Lord show me the light.
God bless ,
Alex
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Hello Kat,
I wanted to thank you for what you posted.
To rocky;
I wanted to be honost and say that what you are telling me, is not going well with the spirit inside me.
I just can't see how those who preach a Christ who will eternaly torture most of His creation are my 'brothers and sisters.' This isn't even the Christ of the gospel, and as kat said, i felt that those whom paul was calling bretheren in the scriptures were for the called AND chosen and not decieved carnal minded christians.
I just don't know how you would explain Christ calling the jews that believed on him, OF THE DEVIL. I mean.. isn't that alittle judgemental of Jesus if they are His brothers and sisters?
I might be wrong for saying this, and if i am then somebody let me know, but i feel that those who preach this get rich burn the unbelievers god of christendom are of the devil and speak lies...
I'm not trying to say i'm better then them, i know its because of God and His mercy, but does that mean i should lie and pertended as though they are my brother and sisters when they certainly don't believe in the same Jesus that i do?
I just don't understand.. you can't have a Christ that is gonna BURN EVERYONE and a Christ that is gonna SAVE EVERYONE. Which Jesus do you follow? Who follows that Jesus? Are not those that follow the Jesus CHrist you do, which is hopefully the one whom died to show the his love for all his creation and whom will one day save all them, are they not your brothers and sisters and not these other people who worship this other god made up in there own minds?
God forgive me if i am deeply mistaken, a blind man cannot see his own steps, so if i am misguided here then Lord show me the light.
God bless ,
Alex
Hi Alex, thank you for your honesty, and I definitely could be wrong; You say what I am saying doesn't sit well with your spirit, and that is fine; hopefully you can go back and look at what I said, which was approx. 90 percent quoted scripture, but 10 percent my words. But even yet, the spirit has to quicken the scriptures in each of us.
Well, if you say that only those who believe in UR are your brothers, that's OK, but I wouldn't even be surprised then if it is broken down to "but only those who believe and teach ........, and not like other UR teachers who teach..........
Sounds like a denomination, or easily could become one
Thank you for this thread, and through it you have given me some things to take to the Lord too.
One thing that has really struck me today, is the children of the devil, the proud, the pharisees etc, those "cut off", although our enemies,
are beloved for the father's sakes. for HIS GLORY.
and through them, we have received mercy,
and through our mercy, they too will receive mercy.
Oh the awesomeness of HIS plan. All for his GlORY
(Rom 11:28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.
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Hi Rocky,
Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.
I don't think Jesus had to prove anything to be considered the Son of God, He was the Son of the Most High by being born of the Holy Spirit. He always Referred to God as His Father, while on earth, even as a child He referred to God as His Father.
Luke 2:49 And He said to them, Why did you look for Me? Do you not know that I must be about My Father's business?
John 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven.
Mat 12:50 For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother.
Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.
Col 1:23 .....of which I, Paul, became a minister,
v. 24 who now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf, and I fill up the things lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh, on behalf of His body, which is the church;
v. 25 of which I became a minister, according to the administration of God given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God;
He wrote those letters to the people that He and the other Apostles had taught the truth and were continuing to minister to them. These were those scattered groups of brethren he was ministering to by sending them these letters, and I would think there were babes that were yet carnal in these groups.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
But in this scripture, I think Paul is asking a sarcastic question, because this is not what they should be doing.
A few scriptures down he ask another question, saying they should be living right if the Holy Spirit is indwelling or God will deal with them.
1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
v. 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
Just the way I see this in the scripture.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat, i personally think there is some interesting parallels with the baptism of Jesus in the jordan, the spirit coming upon him, named "beloved son", and then sent out into the wilderness.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Seems there is spiritual parallel for us:
1. baptized into Christ's death via faith:
our baptism, (representative of Christ's baptism in the jordan)
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
then receiving of the spirit
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(Gal 3:26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
2. My beloved son status given to us, through faith and the spirit
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
3. led out to the wilderness, as son's; for the trying of our faith. Because we are sons, then chastisement (our wilderness journey). In this journey, learn obedience, and by God's grace stay faithul, and dont' fall back to works of the law.
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Seems to me a great parrallel.
1.Jesus baptized, given son status, then tried in the wilderness
2. Those chosen, baptized into Christ's death via faith, given son status, then led into wilderness for chastisement and trying of our faith.
those who stay faithful to the end will be saved.
I see the "son"ship being given before fully matured in the wilderness. are not these "sons" not our brothers?
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Hell Rocky, thanks again for your reply.
I have nothing against the scriptures, and they are always true to me. Lord have mercy, i pray they are!
However, i noticed that those who have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are the sons and daughters of God. How can those who are of there father the devil have the spirit of Christ in them?
Also, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
Does being beloved for the fathers sake = our brother and sisters? Why is the FATHERS SAKE? Why not OUR Sake or CHRIST SAKE? Why not, they are 'sons for the fathers sake?' Why the use of the word BELOVED?
I just don't know yet if i can say that simply because they are beloved for the fathers sake, that those jews that believe on him that Christ calls of the devil, are our brothers in Christ. Remmber these people BELIEVE ON CHRIST.
This is why this is not so black and white to me, these are not just athiest or agnostics, these are those that BELIEVE ON HIM! Is this not haveing FAITH IN CHRIST? Yet they are OF THE DEVIL! How can that be? Furthermore, hwo could they be brothers and sisters to us?
I certainly don't think this is creating a new denomination, there is already a unity of spirit that we must strive to maintain as paul contends. I am in no way advocating a new denomination here of any sort, God forbid, we belong to HIS BODY, HIS CHURCH! There is no need for ANY of that, however does that mean that we call those who are of the devil, our brothers and sisters? How do we know who is of the devil? Our brothers and sisters are those who do the commandments of God, can i even say that i do those? I break them all the time.. where do i fall in all this?
SO many questions.. so much confusion...
Thanks for the intersting discussion! I am learning though confusion and questions are part of that long process.
God bless,
Alex
I c
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Hello Alex
Just a few observations.
Babylon teaches that there are saved and born again members of the body of Christ BEFORE the resurrection to life in Christ or judgment at the White Throne. Hence the confusion. :)
For me there are no sons or daughters yet except one and that is Christ. For some there is the conception of His Spirit within and the race to finish the test of faith and trial of our fidelity to Christ.
You say : However, i noticed that those who have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are the sons and daughters of God.
We do not know who is and who isn't elected to sonship and daughter status yet. Only God knows His own. For us we have the Hope to be called sons and daughters but it is not yet that the sons and daughters have been made manifest.
You ask : How can those who are of there father the devil have the spirit of Christ in them?
How indeed. Only Christ can give us conversion by giving us the deposit of His Spirit that is not given in full to any. Non have yet reached the full standard height of Christ in this life time but at death perhaps there are a few who have been faithful to receive their crown of glory when after Christ returns.
You say : Also, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
If by this you mean that the children of the devil are beloved for the Fathers sake then you are way off base I believe because scripture tells us that those who are of the devil are the children of rebellion who are reserved unto wrath and indignation of God and are hardly beloved in their rebellion, vile beastly unrepentant merciless condition of spiritual weakness.
Your questions that ask why God and not our sake is simply because there are non who are good but God. Why make anything for a lessor reason that the height and glory and perfection of God and His Son. Why have any problem with this?
You ask : How do we know who is of the devil?
Simple. Children of the devil are like their father who is a murderer and has no truth in him from the beginning. They are the children of disobedience, partakers of darkness, fornicators, covertness, fools talking foolishness, idolaters of their own understanding giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach, they are hypocrites, pretentious liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron, they are filled with irreverent legends and silly myths and indulge in godless chatter with vain and empty worldly phrases subtleties and contradictions falsely calling this knowledge and spiritual illumination. They are those who gratify themselves and do not tolerated or endure sound and wholesome instruction. They have ears that itch to hear false erroneous teachings. They are those who have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and they are without understanding. These are the lovers of themselves not knowing God or His Power.
The world is full of them!
God is not a God of confusion. It is really quite simple really. Following in the foot path of Jesus...now that is the difficult part. :) You might want to take this to heart and go and take a look into what is taught under http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html How Hard is Getting Saved?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hell Rocky, thanks again for your reply.
I have nothing against the scriptures, and they are always true to me. Lord have mercy, i pray they are!
However, i noticed that those who have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are the sons and daughters of God. How can those who are of there father the devil have the spirit of Christ in them?
Also, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
Does being beloved for the fathers sake = our brother and sisters? Why is the FATHERS SAKE? Why not OUR Sake or CHRIST SAKE? Why not, they are 'sons for the fathers sake?' Why the use of the word BELOVED?
I just don't know yet if i can say that simply because they are beloved for the fathers sake, that those jews that believe on him that Christ calls of the devil, are our brothers in Christ. Remmber these people BELIEVE ON CHRIST.
This is why this is not so black and white to me, these are not just athiest or agnostics, these are those that BELIEVE ON HIM! Is this not haveing FAITH IN CHRIST? Yet they are OF THE DEVIL! How can that be? Furthermore, hwo could they be brothers and sisters to us?
I certainly don't think this is creating a new denomination, there is already a unity of spirit that we must strive to maintain as paul contends. I am in no way advocating a new denomination here of any sort, God forbid, we belong to HIS BODY, HIS CHURCH! There is no need for ANY of that, however does that mean that we call those who are of the devil, our brothers and sisters? How do we know who is of the devil? Our brothers and sisters are those who do the commandments of God, can i even say that i do those? I break them all the time.. where do i fall in all this?
SO many questions.. so much confusion...
Thanks for the intersting discussion! I am learning though confusion and questions are part of that long process.
God bless,
Alex
I c
Hi Alex, I definitely agree that those "of the devil" are not our brothers and sisters. And yes they are beloved for the fathers sakes. My mistake if I implied that they were brothers and sisters.
Jesus clearly states who are my brothers and sisters, "those who do the will of the father"
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
The point I was trying to make, is that it is in one's Heart one believes, and via faith, that person has the spirit of God in them. And in my opinion, they are brothers/sisters even if immature. Just like Paul addressed in Corinthians.
Also, I don't believe one has to believe in a certain "additional" beliefs other than trusting in the death, burial and resurrection for the spirit to be in them. I do see, each person having to grow up a lot, and remain faithful to the end in order to be saved at the Day of the Lord.
At what point did you become a brother Alex?? When did your faith become not fake faith, but real faith?? when did the Holy Spirit move in??
For me, I again stress the "in your heart", it's a heart faith, not just lip service faith.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Here is something else to think about, Paul's ministry was to these churches (ie: Corinth). Why would he be in such anguish, prayer, write letters, and continue to seek them, encourage them in the faith, to grow up, and to stay faithful?? to me it's because they were brothers and sisters.
and in the gospels, Jesus tells his disciples to go from town to town, and if not received, shake the dust off and move on. These pharissees, were not brothers and sisters, were hardened for a purpose; and no use waisting time on them.
thanks again, you are a blessing and I appreciate your sincerity
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I just got through reading this thread, really really good, and thanks to ALL who participated.
Rocky Rocky Rocky.... so many good points and verses that I align with.... I am with you in spirit. And this is not the first thread where I have appreciated your questions and viewpoints. ;):)
Thanks also Alex for your perspectives and thanks Pera for the good Godtube.
To me, yes there are vessels that were made for dishonor and children that were given to be of their father the devil..... isn't satan a good place to learn from?
1Cr 5: 5 to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [CLNT]
Just one question, for CIY re:
Well I have seen many religious people act good all of their life, but the love of God was not in them.
How do you know?
Thanks again ALL!
:)
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Greetings with a holy :-*,
I just finished reading the audio transcript "Ray's talk on Repentance." It is packed with truth, not just on repentance, but on judging. I highly recommend that anyone who hasn't yet read that transcript do so. It really has given me a lot to digest.
This is not an easy or painless process for me, letting go of so much "sand" that I've built my life on. But, I believe it is worth it. Thanks to everyone here contributing to my edification.
Love and Prayers,
G.