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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: gregorydc on August 01, 2012, 11:24:27 PM
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My wife and I have been separated for over a year now. I know the bible says God hates divorce. But he divorced national Israel. Jesus said that the only way to divorce is by adultery. If we are all sinners and are guilty of all sins then all divorces are caused by adultery? I have looked on this site for a while now and have found very little on marriage. The bible says not to divorce all over the place but it also says not to be unequally yoked also. I am a believer my wife is not, I do not want a divorce my wife does. Is there any scriptural help I am missing on this subject? I know only God can change someones heart and mind just like he did to king Nebuchadnezzar and all things are in Gods time not mine. If God hates divorce, and it is forced upon you, how, what do you do about it.
lost and concerned
Greg
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Email reply from Ray ():
Dear Max: There are a hundred good reasons why I don't get involved in counseling people in divorce and remarriage situations and other legal matters. One ends up in the same situation as Paul called "endless genealogies." I assume you may be referring to your own marriage with this question? Okay, so you marry a woman who was not legally divorced based on her husband committing adultery. They just divorced for whatever reasons. Now then, are you legally married to her and is she legally married to you? Well........has her husband remarried? Cause if he did, then he IS committing adultery, seeing that your divorce was apparently not legal in God's eyes. So now that he is married (legal or not) to another and having sex (adultery) with another woman, she could not legally divorce him on grounds of adultery. But you are already divorced, he is now married, and she now married. Okay, suppose her husband is not remarried and is not committing adultery, then what? Should she legally divorce you according to the laws of the law, and remarry her old husband if he will have her? What if he really does WANT HER? And what if she really decides that she did love him and wants to divorce you now and remarry her old husband? Can they do that? (In "God's" eyes?)
What if you die, and your present wife who is not legally divorced because there was no adultery in her first marriage, wants to remarry a third man, and the third man is legally divorced because his wife did commit adultery, can she marry him if her first husband will not take her back, even though he never did commit adultery on her when they were married? But what if your wife really did commit adultery in her first marriage, but her first husband forgave her and didn't want to divorce her, but she wanted to divorce him, because she felt guilty for betraying him? Can she divorce him if it was her who committed the adultery, and then marry you? I could go on like this for hours and hours.
It's just more "endless genealogy," and I won't get involved in it. Furthermore, NO ONE will divorce their mate if they love them, no matter WHAT I would say, so this whole conversation is pretty close to pointless. Furthermore, I don't believe that I have ever had anyone tell me the absolute truth when asking me to "settle" such convoluted marital situations.
Listen: You cannot UN-ring a bell. Sometimes it is not possible to go back and straighten out all of the convoluted mistakes we made in life and such things as marriage and remarriage. Repent for what you have done and for what you are and GO ON with you life. If a husband BEATS his wife, or ABUSES the children, or does NOT PROVIDE food and shelter for his family, or is totally IMMORAL, or DESERTS his wife, or DIES, then the wife is not expected to remained married to such a man if she does not desire, and the same is true she the wife commit these crimes. Almost all other things are just excuses to have one's cake and eat it too. I hope this has been a little helpful to you.
God be with you,
Ray
I only highlighted the portion relevant to your situation, as far as your wife deserting you through divorce. I know it's hard, but there's no need for you to carry around a guilty conscience. And really, neither should your wife...you both have to move on. Sorry about everything Gregory.
Marques
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Hi Greg,
Here is a Biblestudy on the subject of marriage, maybe you can find some help in it.
audios
http://bible-truths.com/audio/marriage1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/marriage2.mp3
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.0.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I will pray for you, Gregory. I'll pray for your wife and kids (if you have any) too. I don't know what else to say other than what Marques and Kat say -- I'm sorry too.
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Thank God for the three of you for your kind words from your heart and for your prayers, something we all could use every now and then. I believe I. Made a bad choice when I asked my wife to marry me not looking at her through spiritual eyes and thinking I could help her not knowing that God was the only help for her. I truly do love her still and both of my children. I still feel guilty for this disaster because of my bad decision it has effects on multiple lives especially my children, but I know searching for the truth in God and much praying is what brought me here and I am very thankful for that. I still believe that divorce is wrong for forgiveness through love solves all problems. Starting to wander here thank you for the positive notes. One thing I don't quite get yet is this … if divorce is caused ultimately by God but he only condones adulteress divorce stated by Jesus how is it that so many of Gods children still seem ti divorce or put away for no reason at all, and seemingly with no remorse or regret?
still curious
Greg
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Greg,
Hav'nt met you and am not in your situation now,although reading what you wrote I certainly can share in your "woes",
In My Own case a while back in this life I was told,"your courting was not an accident,your marriage was not an accident,your fighting was not an accident,Your children did not arrive by accident,neither are you in this place by accident...read 1 Cor 13"
I will be praying for you "Boet" [South African for brother] -
meantime check out 1 Cor 13 in fact,ask the Father to read it with you ... once you get that inside you, you stop looking at your self and you will put others before your present trial/circumstance,who knows ... with God anything/all is possible ... even un-divorces.
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I am a believer my wife is not, I do not want a divorce my wife does. Is there any scriptural help I am missing on this subject?
Hi Greg.
Everything that happens in your life, from your birth to your death [meaning 'everything' in between], was ordained for you.God is not surprised by His own works.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.
The Lord is the one who will judge a believer in a marriage and free that believer from bondage, so that the believer, can be called to peace.
1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
Our pursuit is for peace and edification in one another,that being His church of believers, not the non-believers.
Rom 14:19 Consequently, then, we are pursuing that which makes for peace and that which is for edification of one another."
Our hope is in the Lord according to His own purpose and grace knowing that all things work together for good,written aforetime.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
As much as a failed marriage hurts,[been there]it is none the less, all of God.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Hope this is of some comfort for you Greg.
Peace...Mark
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Thank God for the three of you for your kind words from your heart and for your prayers, something we all could use every now and then. I believe I. Made a bad choice when I asked my wife to marry me not looking at her through spiritual eyes and thinking I could help her not knowing that God was the only help for her. I truly do love her still and both of my children. I still feel guilty for this disaster because of my bad decision it has effects on multiple lives especially my children, but I know searching for the truth in God and much praying is what brought me here and I am very thankful for that. I still believe that divorce is wrong for forgiveness through love solves all problems. Starting to wander here thank you for the positive notes. One thing I don't quite get yet is this … if divorce is caused ultimately by God but he only condones adulteress divorce stated by Jesus how is it that so many of Gods children still seem ti divorce or put away for no reason at all, and seemingly with no remorse or regret?
still curious
Greg
You're welcome, Gregory.
In answer to the highlighted question, that is because God makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. Given time, I guarantee you even the hardest, most calloused hearts do regret their decision to divorce. We have this thing in us that makes us continually think that the grass is greener on the other side; and it might be for a time but when the novelty/newness of that wears off, it's back to square one.
You feel guilty for marrying your wife and thinking you could help her [help her ... meaning? - sorry-not trying to be nosey...] without first looking at her through spiritual eyes. She left you, Gregory. That's not what you ultimately wanted. You had no way of knowing this would happen; that was not your intention at all. But now you have all this fallout with your kids and with her. I pray you and your wife will be reunited since you still love her. But if she has made the decision to leave, you might have to just accept it for a while and maybe one day you two can be better friends apart than when you were married? I've seen that happen too. :)
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Hi Gregory,
This is from an old man who has the extensive experience of mountains of mistakes....
I don't know if you mentioned it in previous messages so if you did then please ignore my comments.
If you are a true believer and if your wife is not, that is not your responsibility to correct. :)
Your responsibility is to be a living example and to inspire her to live her life as best she can under the circumstances. One thing that believers on this forum can do is stop preaching to their relatives and spouses. AND if you are called upon to give an answer for the hope that lies within you; make it as brief as possible and shut up about it. Focus on being a loving friend.
Yes it is very tempting to continually try to steer the conversation around to your "God given" personal beliefs, but it is not necessary to do that in order to stay married. (if that applies)
So what I am asking you to think about, no reply is needed, is whether your obvious beliefs are causing division, BECAUSE you keep bringing it up to her (or to others in her presence)
You can live with a woman, in marriage, without demanding your proper marriage privileges from her. You can live as a Eunuch and be happy, IF YOU DECIDE to be happy. Consider what the apostle Paul had to suffer all the years he served Lord Jesus in his ministry.
You have heard it said that the husband is the "proper" head of the wife and that the wife should submit herself to her own husband. True!! BUT.... The choice is hers not the husband's choice.
Consider that Christ is our absolute master and yet he does not even mention it to us unless we ask for correction. We need then to be like Christ in being "long suffering" in our relationships with other people and especially with our spouses.
Finally, please be aware that my comments were not asked for and may not apply to your situation so please take them with a spoonful of sugar to sweeten them where needed.
Kindly, Indianabob
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To Gina I thought I could help her because , well I really don't know, just call it a damsel in distress , and I thought I was her knight.?
To indianabob I wish I would have found this site a year ago and gotten your advice then. Ignorance has been killing me for quite some time. Lol I thank you very much for your advice and truly I say thank you. But I am pretty sure I have shattered and bashed and clubbed and stomped that all over the ground. I did nicely at putting my,what I thought was biblical knowledge, it out there and severely beat my wife with it. I wielded the hammer of God quite dangerously against her. Probably too late to fix that one. Again thank you. From a babe in Christ,
Greg
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Yep, from one recovering control freak to another, I have to say I'm looking forward to becoming none at all. And statistics show I'm much more likable now. ;)
We live, we learn.
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"This is from an old man who has the extensive experience of mountains of mistakes...."
That is certainly true....there is no teacher like experience....
"Your responsibility is to be a living example and to inspire her to live her life as best she can under the circumstances. One thing that believers on this forum can do is stop preaching to their relatives and spouses. AND if you are called upon to give an answer for the hope that lies within you; make it as brief as possible and shut up about it. Focus on being a loving friend..."
Such great advice filled with wisdom, yet sooooo hard to do!
"If a husband BEATS his wife, or ABUSES the children, or does NOT PROVIDE food and shelter for his family, or is totally IMMORAL, or DESERTS his wife, or DIES, then the wife is not expected to remained married to such a man if she does not desire, and the same is true she the wife commit these crimes. Almost all other things are just excuses to have one's cake and eat it too."
Marriage is hard under the best of circumstances. Sometimes it seems impossible.
,"your courting was not an accident, your marriage was not an accident, your fighting was not an accident, Your children did not arrive by accident, neither are you in this place by accident...read 1 Cor 13"
Sometimes at the end of an especially hard day, it's hard to understand what God is doing. It's hard to imagine that He has ordained so much pain and difficulty for some people.
I read someone post that "I have thought more about running away as an adult than I ever did as a child." ...
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
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gregorydc -
I pray that my thoughts may help you and your beloved to reconcile in Love and Truth:
What is it about your wife that you like.
Tell her what it is about her that you love.
Tell her why you love her and that you do not want to be without her.
Ask her what it is that is stopping you from being together as husband and wife.
The union of a husband and his wife is just that - oneness.
The hardest thing in life is to be a good husband or wife and and a caring parent.
You should be a Living Letter to your wife - leading by example - and showing her you love her in how you interact with her.
Remember you must love your wife as yourself - and take care of her as you do yourself.
There is no hiding place within families - and you are seen for what you truly are - and a child of God should be living a loving life - with no hatred or resentment, full of forgiveness and a lot of patience.
Tell The Lord how you feel and ask Him to confirm to your wife how your feel.
Wives tend to take out their frustrations on their husbands, as do the husbands also. This is a time to listen carefully to what your wife is telling you.
The scriptures state that a believer should stay with their unbelieving spouse if their spouse wants to stay with them.
In my experience, not many people open up their hearts to others. Love motives us to open our hearts and minds to those we care about.
When my fiance was thinking of leaving me, I begged her not to and opened up my heart to her in a crowded major train station - as I was only concerned about us and nothing else.
George.
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I will pray for God to bring about some type of resolution to what must be such a painful, difficult situation, Greg.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
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"This is from an old man who has the extensive experience of mountains of mistakes...."
That is certainly true....there is no teacher like experience....
"Your responsibility is to be a living example and to inspire her to live her life as best she can under the circumstances. One thing that believers on this forum can do is stop preaching to their relatives and spouses. AND if you are called upon to give an answer for the hope that lies within you; make it as brief as possible and shut up about it. Focus on being a loving friend..."
Such great advice filled with wisdom, yet sooooo hard to do!
"If a husband BEATS his wife, or ABUSES the children, or does NOT PROVIDE food and shelter for his family, or is totally IMMORAL, or DESERTS his wife, or DIES, then the wife is not expected to remained married to such a man if she does not desire, and the same is true she the wife commit these crimes. Almost all other things are just excuses to have one's cake and eat it too."
Marriage is hard under the best of circumstances. Sometimes it seems impossible.
,"your courting was not an accident, your marriage was not an accident, your fighting was not an accident, Your children did not arrive by accident, neither are you in this place by accident...read 1 Cor 13"
Sometimes at the end of an especially hard day, it's hard to understand what God is doing. It's hard to imagine that He has ordained so much pain and difficulty for some people.
I read someone post that "I have thought more about running away as an adult than I ever did as a child." ...
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Hi Lauriellen,
Maybe you should evaluate how you are interacting with your family... you do not want to antagonize people with your knowledge of the truth. I certainly do not know how you may have been demonstrating what you believe to anybody, but this is what I'm getting at, there is a difference in letting your light shine and telling/preaching to a blind person (that cannot possibly understand truth) that what they are doing/saying is wrong. A person that does not understand as you do may think of your attempt of helping them see the truth more as an attack and become defensive and you may drive them further away from listening to you. Again I do not know that you are doing any of this, just wanted give some examples that may help.
Col 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time.
V. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one. (NKJV)
Here is the Easy to Read version.
Col 4:5 Be wise in the way you act with those who are not believers. Use your time in the best way you can.
v. 6 When you talk, you should always be kind and wise. Then you will be able to answer everyone in the way you should. (ERV)
If you can see what Paul is saying here it is that we should be careful how we speak with "those who are outside" - unbelievers. When we talk to them we should take care that it is "seasoned with salt" - prudent, tactful. While one answer is proper for one person, yet another kind of answer may be better for another person, as we see in Proverbs.
Pro 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
v. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Sometimes we do need to give an answer when there is a discussion, to show we are not in agreement, while other times we should remain silent. We need to learn how to judge the situation and how to respond to it, sometimes a person simple can't bear/endure/comprehend what we think we are sharing a simple understanding. Even Jesus had to refrain from teaching his disciples too much.
John 16:12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Think about how Paul spoke of being "all things to all people," he was never condescending, he would make himself as anybody's equal in whom he was conversing, in order to gain a good rapport with them.
1Co 9:19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
Paul was a free man, not a slave and not owing anybody, so self-sufficient, but yet he was willing to make himself totally available for service/work, whenever needed.
v. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
v. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
So my point in saying all this is that we have to use much discretion when talking about these truths to others, which requires knowing what to say, how much and when, so as not to bring trouble onto ourselves.
Pro 9:6 Leave your old, foolish ways and live! Advance along the path of understanding."
v. 7 Criticize a person who is rude and shows no respect, and you will only get insults. Correct the wicked, and you will only get hurt.
v. 8 Don't correct such people, or they will hate you. But correct those who are wise, and they will love you. (ERV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat. Wisdom indeed. I am blessed by your post as you know where I find myself, this is a big struggle for me lately.
I showed a classmate how the lake of fire wasnt eternal, that it would end, and she finally saw it, but only to arrive to the conclusion that God's plan was then to annihilate all that went into it. My heart was absolutely broken and I felt a deep sadness for her, that she completely misjudges Jesus and His great love.
I knew then I had to be very careful about how I discuss such basic truths as the reconciliation of all things--The milk of the word.
I am a huge work in progress, in all things, it seems like ill never finish the race, endure to the end.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Alex,
Just a comment or two. Tongue in cheek....
The annihilation idea seems to many to work to lead to a better idea (total change) after a few years or so.
Yes I know it is not correct, but as an amateur bible student searching for something that makes sense it did seem to make sense to me 30 years ago! Because at least God wasn't a cruel torturer getting pleasure from inflicting pain for no useful reason other than revenge which thing we humans are forbidden to desire.
These truths are usually learned in steps, many baby steps it seems, and we who have been dragged along faster and further than the others have to be very patient with ourselves and with those others.
Since we are going to "die to self" all of us eventually, then the "new man" the spiritually strong man that we will become when we are changed will be a similar but really brand new personality, will it not?
It is not I that live, rather it is Christ that lives in me. The old self is dying and the sooner the better.
I expect to have many of my good memories, for a while at least, until the last person is changed to spirit and we all have the future to look forward to and have those positive thoughts to dwell on.
Eventually, how long I can't know, we all will forget the suffering we experienced on the road to immortality and a place of honor in God's wonderful Kingdom.
Forgetting pain and forgiving offenses is possible even in this life, so I am confident that in the life to come forgiving and forgetting and putting offenses as far from each of us as the East is from the West will occur.
It is hard to watch another person suffer when you know something that could help if ONLY they could understand. But that is not for us to control. Our task is to just love them the way they are...and keep the secret within our own heart just the way Father God did for centuries leading up to the advent of HIS only begotten son. Even the angels at his throne desired to know the hidden things which we puny humans have in this age been freely given!
Hope that I didn't confuse anyone with my poor explanation.
Indiana Bob
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Col 4:5 Be wise in the way you act with those who are not believers. Use your time in the best way you can.
Psa 90:12 Teach us how short our lives are so that we can become wise.
Col 3:16 Let the teaching of Christ live inside you richly. Use all wisdom to teach and counsel each other. Sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Mat 10:16 "Listen! I am sending you, and you will be like sheep among wolves. So be smart like snakes. But also be like doves and don't hurt anyone.
Rom 16:19 Everyone has heard that you do what you were taught, and I am very happy about that. But I want you to be wise about what is good and to know nothing about what is evil.
1Co 14:19 But in the church meetings I would rather speak five words that I understand than thousands of words in a different language. I would rather speak with my understanding, so that I can teach others.
1Co 14:20 Brothers and sisters, don't think like children. In evil things be like minors, but in your thinking you should be like full-grown adults.
1Co 14:21 As the Scriptures say, "Using those who speak a different language and using the lips of foreigners, I will speak to these people. But even then, they will not obey me." This is what the Lord says. 1Co 14:22 And from this we see that the use of different languages shows how God deals with those who don't believe, not with those who believe. And prophecy shows how God works through those who believe, not through unbelievers.
1Co 14:23 Suppose the whole church meets together and you all speak in different languages. If some people come in who are without understanding or don't believe, they will say you are crazy.
1Co 14:24 But suppose you are all prophesying and someone comes in who does not believe or who is without understanding. Their sin will be shown to them, and they will be judged by everything you say. languages. If some people come in who are without understanding or don't believe, they will say you are crazy.
1Co 14:25 The secret things in their heart will be made known. So they will bow down and worship God. They will say, "Without a doubt, God is here with you."
Eph 5:15 So be very careful how you live. Live wisely, not like fools.
Eph 5:16 I mean that you should use every opportunity you have for doing good, because these are evil times.
Eph 5:17 So don't be foolish with your lives, but learn what the Lord wants you to do.
Jas 1:5 Do any of you need wisdom? Ask God for it. He is generous and enjoys giving to everyone. So he will give you wisdom.
Jas 3:13 Are there any among you who are really wise and understanding? Then you should show your wisdom by living right. You should do what is good with humility. A wise person does not boast.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from God is like this: First, it is pure. It is also peaceful, gentle, and easy to please. This wisdom is always ready to help people who have trouble and to do good for others. This wisdom is always fair and honest.
1Th 4:12 If you do these things, then those who are not believers will respect the way you live. And you will not have to depend on others for what you need.
1Pe 3:1 In the same way, you wives should be willing to serve your husbands. Then, even those who have refused to accept God's teaching will be persuaded to believe because of the way you live. You will not need to say anything.
1Pe 3:2 Your husbands will see the pure lives that you live with respect for God.
1Pe 3:3 It is not fancy hair, gold jewelry, or fine clothes that should make you beautiful.
1Pe 3:4 No, your beauty should come from inside you--the beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit. That beauty will never disappear. It is worth very much to God.
1Pe 3:5 It was the same with the holy women who lived long ago and followed God. They made themselves beautiful in that same way. They were willing to serve their husbands.
1Pe 3:6 I am talking about women like Sarah. She obeyed Abraham, her husband, and called him her master. And you women are true children of Sarah if you always do what is right and are not afraid.
1Pe 3:7 In the same way, you husbands should live with your wives in an understanding way, since they are weaker than you. You should show them respect, because God gives them the same blessing he gives you--the grace of true life. Do this so that nothing will stop your prayers from being heard.
Eph 5:16 I mean that you should use every opportunity you have for doing good, because these are evil times.
Skip
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@ mharrell08 could you please send me a link to the question that elicited that response from Ray, I have searched but couldn't locate it. Thanks
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mharrell08 is no longer a member.
The email is at:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7413.msg58866.html#msg58866
Rhys
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If the unbelieving spouse desires to leave, let them leave...
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Reasonable advice CJ,
Just be sure that we are not the ones opening the door for them and pushing them away and out.
Coll 3:12-14
…12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.…
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I don't know if this has been answered somewhere - I searched for it but didn't find anything.
For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?
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I don't know if this has been answered somewhere - I searched for it but didn't find anything.
For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?
Jeff,
The answer is anywhere you want.
The Elect under Jesus' New Covenant don't have a lot of rules of do's and do not's.
The Spirit of God leads us in our way and in all Truth.
If you have the nine fruits of the Spirit of God within you, as listed in Galatians 5:22-23, then there is no need for laws and rules.
John
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>>>If you have the nine fruits of the Spirit of God within you, as listed in Galatians 5:22-23, then there is no need for laws and rules.
Hi John,
That makes sense to me, and maybe I just don't fully understand yet, but I was reading the transcript from a Bible-study Ray gave regarding marriage/matrimony, and he stated that while there is a Spiritual aspect (Christ / the church) there's also a very physical part of "matrimony". He was responding to an email in which someone said "We love each other and don't need to be married..." and of course that's not true, but marriage involves having a physical ceremony.
Ok, so given that, I realize that we could be on a beach somewhere, and as long as we have the proper legal documents, and for the ceremony - have witnesses present (friends celebrating with us), but I'm confused as to what would actually happen.
Without someone (in a former life - a pastor) officiating, it seems as though "matrimony" is actually just a matter of having the legal document and having a (Scriptural) celebration.
However, someone needs to sign the document, be it a judge, or a pastor, or a notary?! :)
I can't put my finger on what I'm confused about, but it seems like I'm missing something.
Maybe the ingredients are:
1. God's blessing
2. Two people who enter into a covenant
3. Legal documents
4. A celebration
5. A judge to sign the legal documents
Does that sound right?
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Jeff,
Someone with God's Spirit will submit to the legal authorities wherever they live.
In the United States, each of the 50 States have their legal rules that constitute marriage. Someone with God's Spirit will follow whatever the legal rules are to form a legal marriage.
If you live on the island of Tahiti, then we must follow the legal marriage rules there.
A captain on a ship can legally marry someone.
I do not know of any organized society that is without marriage laws and rules.
God's Spirit will direct that we follow the laws where we live because all authority comes from God. All power ultimately leads back to God.
The Scriptures teach that only the marriage bed is undefiled. So God has made a way to be legally married wherever one lives.
John
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Thanks John. Makes sense. Not sure why this all of a sudden occurred to me today (I'm not getting married) but it got lodged in my brain.
Jeff
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Ha! Jeff, I've asked the very same questions as you. Here are 7 pages of jibberish that may give you insight. Or not...your mileage may vary. ;)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16040.0.html
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Thanks Neo,
I think my understanding (relevant to my quandary) is rooted in what Ray said about matrimony (as opposed to marriage) which is that matrimony does not rely on love, sex, happiness, etc. a marriage certainly hopes to have all of those things and much more in order to be a good marriage, but the aspect of "marrying" is different in that there are rules, and customs that we're commanded to observe as Ray points out in his paper.
In this respect my mind has been rooted deeply in tradition, and I struggled to imagine what the actual physical requirements are. Even though we aren't under the Law - customs and legalities still have a place in our lives because we are "in" the world and we're to be obedient to those God has put in power.
I think the only hitch in my thinking was "well, if there's no pastor, then what are we to do?" and it took some thought to sort this out.
It's probably not a big issue, but I appreciate the insight. It helped me a great deal.
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I hear you, Jeff.
Even so, JFK said, "God has made a way to be legally married wherever one lives." I find this to be an interesting statement, seeing as how the Supreme Law of the Land here in the US just declared that women can "legally" marry women, and men, men. That IS now the Law here, like it or not. Unlike John, I don't believe God 'made that way'. Man did. And it's absurd.
I think all of us here recognize the "marital relationship" to have been created and defined by God alone. And it's a special relationship, unlike any other type of relationship between humans. While you are right in saying marriage "does not rely on love, sex, happiness, etc." (note, I bolded "rely"), those things still bear heavily on that special relationship. So, what makes it "special"?
Simply put, it is the only God-sanctioned way for creating earthly families. And only a man and a woman can procreate. Thus, he created this special relationship primarily for the continuation of--not just the species (fornicators can procreate!)--but God's people. The primary purpose of true marriage is "to raise up Godly seed". Others here will dispute that; I'm OK with that. But that's what I see in the scriptures. And in that sense, it does rely on certain physical acts...which, in turn rely on eros, love.
What I think is quite interesting in light of today's re-interpretation of the word Marriage by the politicians and culture gods is this:
As one 'spokesman' for the homosexual community at large has said, "Gay marriage is a lie"... because ..."the institution of marriage should not exist". This Lesbian activist went on to say, "I don’t see why they (her children) shouldn’t have five parents legally. I don’t see why we should choose two of those parents and make them a sanctioned couple.” Indeed, THIS is the agenda. Note the careful choice of her term, "sanctioned couple". Devious...
I guess it just bothers me to keep hearing other believers say things like 'the love, sex, children thing isn't all that important'. As if those aspects don't really matter in a proper definition of marriage... Because the heathen sure think they do. And it's not good enough that the State has "legalized" it.. They want it re-defined. More accurately, they want it undefined.
I think we as believers should be cognizant of this agenda and more conscientious of our definitions. Just my $.02
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There are a lot of things that are 'legal' that followers of Christ ought not to engage in.
I'm not a catholic. "Marrying" is not a sacrament. I'm not a Mormon. "Marrying" is not the beginning of a 'spiritual union' between man and wife. It's (marrying) a symbol of "our" union with Christ. In fact, when WE marry, we're simply married. Since I've been old enough to think for myself, that's what I've thought.
People marry all over the world without giving a thought to whether the God of the Bible "sanctions" it. They did so before Christendom spread all of the world, and they do so where Christendom holds little or no sway. Those people are married. Period. It is stating the obvious that 'marriage' to them is NOT a symbol of THEIR union with Christ, even if their marrying may be a symbol of OUR union with Christ.
"WE" might even go so far as to say that "their marrying" is a very poor symbol of our union with Christ--maybe even not a symbol at all. But when you start where I did, that's what it is, and all it is. "We" have commandments concerning it, and WE should keep them. If you don't, then immediately after that, you didn't.
Edited to change 'spiritual union with Christ' to 'Union with Christ'. Spiritual is too loaded a word. Marrying is a symbol of the upcoming Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
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Neo, why do you seems so disturbed to see this world embracing debauchery, hasn't it always. I think a lot of ignorant people actually believe that their 'acceptance' is their way of showing compassion on those they see just as 'different.' We cannot change the way this world is, and will continue to be for now and it's not up to us to do so.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is nonsense in God's sight. For it is written, "He catches the wise with their own trickery," (ISV)
So what is the point in watching what this world is doing on the news programs, and paying close attention to the words they're saying? Certainly we don't agree with what is going on, and that is why we are suppose to "be separate" (2Co 6:17). I just don't see why you keep getting on a soapbox about all that here, going on about your disapproval and lecturing us?
1John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
v. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Aren't things exactly the way they're supposed to be? I think I've pretty much given up at this point, worrying about this and that, because this is what God allows. If gay marriage were something He simply wouldn't allow - then it wouldn't exist. It has some purpose that I'm not clear about, but I'm unclear about most things.
I have this recurring thought about Jesus' return. I keep thinking that God is waiting until all of His family is born before He finally deals with us. Each day that passes without His return umpteenth souls are born into His family. We don't know how many billions of people will be in our (His) family, but it makes sense to me that many billions would be at least the minimum - eternity is a big thing. I forget the estimate of how many people have existed, but considering there are 7+ billion people on earth right now, and the earth is becoming slightly crowded, and maybe even unsustainable eventually, it seems like it would be nearly a ripe time to harvest. Not that I know anything about anything, but I ponder.
If God gives us medical advances that prolong our lives, it would make sense that it might be a way of bringing things to a close, barring a global catastrophe. Only so many people can fit. I see the struggle my daughter has after college trying to find a foothold in the world, and it's painful to watch, but I think it also reminds me that we're inching closer to redemption. And then everyone will know at least as much and more than those of us here, now.
If Jesus' return were near, say, in our lifetime, we would see all of the horror we've created come to a screeching halt. I think that's the only thought that really keeps me putting one foot in front of the other. Well, that, and death.
So.....gay marriage, rape, murder, lying and deception, selfishness, hate, war-mongering - it all has a purpose in the formation of God's family. We are given a gift to know what's right and wrong and God chooses who possess that understanding. It's true, marveling that the world is, the way it is, is rather pointless, simply because it's exactly the way it should be. But I also think we all have our limits as to how much we can take in and stay sane :)
Something that occurred to me lately, that probably everyone else thinks about, but is a new thought to me - is praying for Jesus to come. I know it's God's timing that determines when that happens, but I've felt this sense of urgency to pray for it. It might just be my own wishful thinking, but who knows?
I think I may have hijacked this thread. Apologies... ;)
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You are certainly not alone in your longing for the return of The King dear Jeff. We all yearn and groan in the spirit. I yearn everyday its almost unbearable. Everyday I live is a new opportunity to learn and draw closer to The Consuming Fire. Its also, painfully and sadly, a new day to sin. I think though, slowly but surely, we inch closer with each passing day by the mercy and grace of our Great God and Saviour. Just think, all the prophets before us didn't even know what their prophecies were all about and even the angels long to know and see what we have. We truly are blessed with a great hope that lies before us. One that the patriarchs would be very jealous of. The holy spirit abiding in us, transforming us into the very (spiritual) image of The Almighty God, what grander destiny could anyone ever ask for the human race? For God's race!
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Weirdly enough, I think Neo's last statements were sound and I don't disagree. Thank you Neo for your input.
Let's think about this. Ray would say that the physical is first, then the spiritual. Well, with marriage you have a ceremony- the physical. Also, we have a physical relationship. But the spiritual in marriage? What would we say that is? Christ and His Church? Or God and His creation of male and female, one made for the other? Or the selflessness and the sacrifice it takes to join with someone in marriage ? Having children is one of the greatest acts of faith we do. It's amazing what we learn about God as Father when we become parents . And we are children in the eyes of God. In fact, we are told we Must be as little children to come to Him. Just having a stream of thought here.
If we cannot have peaceful discourse about marriage knowing what we know and who we are, then who can?
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So what is the point in watching what this world is doing on the news programs, and paying close attention to the words they're saying? Certainly we don't agree with what is going on, and that is why we are suppose to "be separate" (2Co 6:17). I just don't see why you keep getting on a soapbox about all that here, going on about your disapproval and lecturing us?
Kat, why do you think I'm "lecturing"? My reason for quoting someone's worldly perspective was to point out what the State's (Legislature's... law-writers'...reality-makers') INTENTION was, ultimately...to re-define, and UN-DEFINE something sacred which definition Believers know and cannot deny.
Someone here posted that he believed God creates "the legal way to be married" through whatever arbitrary laws evil men who control the state declare. Notwithstanding anything that may be written or described in Scripture... I disagreed. I think it is important that we who believe on the Words of Christ do not allow others (heathen) to re-define His words--- and demand WE accept their "re-assignments".
What I'm saying is, we don't have to accept their definition.
Or do we? What say ye? Is JFK right?
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My reason for quoting someone's worldly perspective was to point out what the State's (Legislature's... law-writers'...reality-makers') INTENTION was, ultimately...to re-define, and UN-DEFINE something sacred which definition Believers know and cannot deny.
That is the way of this age, it has been through all the centuries and will be until Christ returns.
Someone here posted that he believed God creates "the legal way to be married" through whatever arbitrary laws evil men who control the state declare. Notwithstanding anything that may be written or described in Scripture... I disagreed. I think it is important that we who believe on the Words of Christ do not allow others (heathen) to re-define His words--- and demand WE accept their "re-assignments".
I do not believe 'all' men that "control the state" have been 'evil,' as you say, God puts who He wants there to serve HIS purpose. Of course "we who believe on the Words of Christ do not allow others (heathen) to re-define His words," why would you think we would? The inclusion of same sex marriage as legal and binding in the USA is repugnant, but it does not change what we would do to in a marriage ceremony. So yes as John said "Someone with God's Spirit will follow whatever the legal rules are to form a legal marriage."
What I'm saying is, we don't have to accept their definition.
Where homosexuality is concerned we do not accept their definition. Your main gripe seems to be with the homosexual influence on our society... okay that certainly is a perversion, Ray wrote a whole article on that http://bible-truths.com/homosex.htm and that seems to have always been a blight on society.
But we cannot change how this society is. We are not to get involved with the politics of this world no more than we have to, only doing what is legally required. We are to live a peaceful life... so what do you mean "do not allow... accept their "re-assignments"." Certainly we cannot protest and raise up in revolt, how are we not to accept what they decide? Remember what Paul said.
Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,
v. 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
Christ's kingdom is NOT of this world now, and neither is ours if Christ dwells in us.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
v. 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
v. 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I edited my post above. That's as 'boiled down' a version of Ray's talk/paper on "What is Marriage?" as I can manage. If it isn't accurate to what he wrote/said, let me know publicly or privately and I will remove the post.
Neo, Jeff's question was about MARRYING and what HE could do. He's not even planning one at present. And I don't think he is even thinking about marrying a man. If you can't answer Jeff's question, then please (for the ninth time now) don't take it any further as an invitation to bring the whole discussion of disagreement (or comments that stem from disagreement) with that talk/paper.
Here it is again, for a refresher:
"For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?"
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Kat, I AGREE with everything you said. I realize we “cannot change how society is”. You keep suggesting I’m for some sort of Revolution or Uprising. Let me assure you, I’m not.
Where homosexuality is concerned we do not accept their definition. Your main gripe seems to be with the homosexual influence on our society...
If you agree we don’t have to accept their definitions, though, as I contend, then what do YOU mean by that? Probably the same thing I mean. Give me the benefit of the doubt that I am not against you or anyone here.
Example: I have a sister-in-law who imagines herself to be a Believer, yet is on her third ‘marriage’ after walking out on her second husband, and father of her children, because, as far as anyone can tell, she was ‘bored’ of him. Conveniently, she’d found a new beau weeks after the ‘divorce papers’ were signed (again, more of man’s laws dictating to Christians how they should interpret Christ’s words). She married him within a month, and moved him into her house with her young daughters. This is an open adulterous affair, not a “marriage” and I acknowledge it as such. In other words, I don’t “recognize” her marriage—even though it’s “legal”. She’s just another fornicator and adulterer, as is her “husband”. No, I don’t advocate stoning her. Something better—the New Testament way—it’s called shunning. It starts by calling a spade a spade. She says she’s “married” now. I say she is not. I retain the right of the proper definition.
To a Believer, then, marriage is what the Scripture says it is; nothing more and nothing less. Why do so many have so much confusion on this subject (myself included)? Is it because we’ve allowed ourselves to be swayed by “learning the way of the heathen”? Let us unlearn it then. It’s an inward Revolution of the Mind, not an outward one. And for the record, I despise “Revolts”. I’m for peaceful separation when and where necessary. I’m for leaving others alone and being left alone.
Dave, I understand what Jeff’s question was. I also think his confusion is based on the above observation. I was just trying to help.
Here it is again, for a refresher:
"For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?"
Here is my answer: Wherever you want. It’s none of the State’s (or anyone else’s) business. That was my point in adding to this conversation. WHO CARES what the unbelievers think about what or how WE are to marry. Their definitions simply do not apply to us in cases where the Bible is clear on a proper understanding of an institution such as “marriage”.
If someone already gave him that answer, my apologies for repeating it. And it wasn’t my intention to take us back down the Rabbit Hole of the former Marriage Vow discussion. My thoughts were to add to that pile of meanderings—maybe just to give some clarity. Guess I failed at that :-\
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I guess your sister-in-law will need a good lawyer and a good judge to untangle her marriage situation.
Some folks look at the world and think about how it ought to be. Seems to me from my chair, that makes them tend to not want any association with it. I prefer to look at the world as it is and think about what it is going to be. That makes me want to live like it's going to be...get a 'head start', as it were. Maybe even help lead the way. Of course, I can't do either if I don't know "what it's going to be".
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Here it is again, for a refresher:
"For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?"
Here is my answer: Wherever you want. It’s none of the State’s (or anyone else’s) business. That was my point in adding to this conversation. WHO CARES what the unbelievers think about what or how WE are to marry. Their definitions simply do not apply to us in cases where the Bible is clear on a proper understanding of an institution such as “marriage”.
My question came out of reading Ray's paper on marriage/matrimony which are two different things. Matrimony has to do with the "ceremony" and "celebration" and marriage is what comes after that. It was really pretty interesting and not something I'd considered. It was then that I wondered where those who came out of the church would get married. I should have thought it through before posting because the answer is fairly obvious. I have the tendency to do that. My question never had anything to do with what the world thinks about me or what I do and I don't care what the world is doing for the most part.
Example: I have a sister-in-law who imagines herself to be a Believer, yet is on her third ‘marriage’ after walking out on her second husband, and father of her children, because, as far as anyone can tell, she was ‘bored’ of him.
I've been reading the Scriptures more lately regarding what they say about divorce. Doing an in depth study of Matthew 5:31-32 might change your perspective a bit. I was amazed at how much information was overlooked in the translation of those verses, as well as many others.
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Well put Dave, exactly how I see it.
Where homosexuality is concerned we do not accept their definition. Your main gripe seems to be with the homosexual influence on our society...
If you agree we don’t have to accept their definitions, though, as I contend, then what do YOU mean by that?
To answer your question, what I feel many people believe is that there is nothing wrong with the homosexual lifestyle, and they say that's because homosexuals and lesbians are not 'hurting' anybody, they just want to be loved for who they are and it's their choice.
It is my own personal belief that I do not accept that "there is nothing wrong with the homosexual lifestyle"... I believe it is a sin (as the Bible says) to engage in any kind of sexual perversion.
1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (sodomites),
Now it's my understanding, and I don't go around forcing my opinion about this on anybody, unless I'm asked (that's not going to happen).
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Luk 6:37 And judge not, and ye shall not be judged: and condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: release, and ye shall be released:
The world is fulfilling Gods intentions, all His intentions. Luk 6:37 is a good way to respond to the world.
God bless. :)
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Luk 6:37 And judge not, and ye shall not be judged: and condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: release, and ye shall be released:
The world is fulfilling Gods intentions, all His intentions. Luk 6:37 is a good way to respond to the world.
Truth!
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I guess your sister-in-law will need a good lawyer and a good judge to untangle her marriage situation.
You lost me, Dave. She already secured the services of a lawyer and a judge to "legalize" her divorce and subsequent re-"marriage". Her current adulterous "marriage" is 100% legal...just like the married couples in this country formerly known as sodomites. If you were being facetious, I still don't get it.
Kat, of course you "don't go around forcing your opinion on anyone"...You can't anyway. It's illegal for you to "force" your opinion onto others. Only people in government costumes are permitted to do that. And unlike your metaphorical threat of force, theirs is very real. Are you suggesting--again--that I desire to "force" my beliefs/opinions onto others? NOT. Why don't you believe me?
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Neo, you did read that I said "I don't go around forcing my opinion." That means me, not you. You asked "what do YOU mean by that?" and I was explaining what I meant and how I do things.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Good enough. I can feel this one going into 7 pages.
If you have any questions that might fit in another thread, please ask them that way. If you have any 1 on 1 comments or questions, please ask them via pm.