bible-truths.com/forums

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Brett on July 24, 2006, 02:00:21 AM

Title: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Brett on July 24, 2006, 02:00:21 AM
Hello,

I am wondering about the spiritual body are not include flesh and blood (another flesh)? After God raised Jesus from dead, His flesh was vanish (but not with decay or corruption), and then He appeared another form in Mark 16:12 is flesh? Because flesh and blood will not inherit kingdom of God same as Jesus' flesh cannot inherit kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:44, 50)? I would be appreciate to share if you have knowledge of this.

Thanks!  :D

Brett
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: YellowStone on July 25, 2006, 12:33:51 AM
Brett, I have been giving your question a fair amount of thought. I am perhaps the least qualified to attempt to answer your question but I will try.

1Cr 15:42    
1Cr 15:43  
1Cr 15:44  
[/color]
Just what is the spiritual body? Does it mean a non-material body? Maybe not. We read that the spiritual body is incorruptible, is glorious and powerful; imperishable.

What does Luke say about the spiritual body?

Luk 24:67 
Luk 24:37 
Luk 24:38
Luk 24:39   [/color]

Do you see the difference in these two scriptures? Jesus's body was raised as a spiritual body, a perfect non natural body. (1Cr 15:44) However, Jesus himself said that it had flesh and bones, something in which a spirit cannot have.

1Cr 15:50
[/color]

So what is meant by Paul when he says that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God? Could it be that "flesh and blood" is another term given to our earthly, natural and sinful bodies from our lineage to Adam? As Christ is the last Adam and his body perfect and incorruptible spiritual body then so too must we receive such a spiritual body, free from sin, death disease and all vices of our natural body.

I feel Paul supports this in his very next verse.

1Cr 15:51
 1Cr 15:52
[/color]
Changed into what? A spirit? or a Spiritual body? What does Paul Say?

1Cr 15:49
[/color]
There you have it Brett, I will let you draw your own conclusions.

Comments welome and if I have posted something I should not have, I am truly sorry.

Christ is the giver of truth

Darren
 
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: rocky on July 25, 2006, 01:29:09 AM
Does anyone know when do those in the LOF get their incorrupt, glorified, spiritual body??? 
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Brett on July 25, 2006, 03:17:31 AM
Quote from: YellowStone on July 25, 2006, 12:33:51 AM
Brett, I have been giving your question a fair amount of thought. I am perhaps the least qualified to attempt to answer your question but I will try.

1Cr 15:42
  • So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
   
1Cr 15:43
  • It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
 
1Cr 15:44
  • It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 
[/color]
Just what is the spiritual body? Does it mean a non-material body? Maybe not. We read that the spiritual body is incorruptible, is glorious and powerful; imperishable.

What does Luke say about the spiritual body?

Luk 24:67 
  • And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Luk 24:37 
  • But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

Luk 24:38
  • And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39  
  • Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have[/i].
[/color]

Do you see the difference in these two scriptures? Jesus's body was raised as a spiritual body, a perfect non natural body. (1Cr 15:44) However, Jesus himself said that it had flesh and bones, something in which a spirit cannot have.

1Cr 15:50
  •   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[/color]

So what is meant by Paul when he says that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God? Could it be that "flesh and blood" is another term given to our earthly, natural and sinful bodies from our lineage to Adam? As Christ is the last Adam and his body perfect and incorruptible spiritual body then so too must we receive such a spiritual body, free from sin, death disease and all vices of our natural body.

I feel Paul supports this in his very next verse.

1Cr 15:51
  • Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 1Cr 15:52
  •   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.   

[/color]
Changed into what? A spirit? or a Spiritual body? What does Paul Say?

1Cr 15:49
  • And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 

[/color]
There you have it Brett, I will let you draw your own conclusions.

Comments welome and if I have posted something I should not have, I am truly sorry.

Christ is the giver of truth

Darren
 

Darren,

Thank you for your time to write with verses and good explain. One question, Jesus rise from dead and He has spiritual body but invisible because Spirit is invisible, then Jesus somehow become like physical so the disciples can see Him. He was not literal flesh and blood but look like a form of body so that disciples can handle Him or touch His body. Am I right understand?

Again, thank you for the help.

Brett


Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: YellowStone on July 25, 2006, 09:31:51 AM
Brett asked:

One question, Jesus rise from dead and He has spiritual body but invisible because Spirit is invisible, then Jesus somehow become like physical so the disciples can see Him. He was not literal flesh and blood but look like a form of body so that disciples can handle Him or touch His body.  

Brett, all I know is what the scriptures state. :)

Luk 24:37 

Luk 24:38

Luk 24:39   


Was Jesus lying? Did not Paul say that Jesus became a "quickening spirit?" There has been much contention regarding what happened to Jesus' body. How come the disciples could see and feel it. I have a hard time believing that Jesus deceived his trusted loyal followers. There must be more to a "quickening spirit?" than an invisible being/force.

Strongs Concordance (2227)

zoopoieo {dzo-op-oy-eh'-o}

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

    a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
    b) to restore to life
    c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life
    d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing  


I believe with all my heart that these words are to instruct us.

1Cr 15:42
1Cr 15:43 
1Cr 15:44 

That there was a body is a given, is it a natural body? NO! :)   
Is it perfect, imperishable and incorruptible? YES!
Does it have flesh that can be touched? YES!

Did the spiritual body ascend to heaven? I believe so, but will stand corrected.

Rom 8:11

Once again, comments welcomes
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Brett on July 25, 2006, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: YellowStone on July 25, 2006, 09:31:51 AM
Brett asked:

One question, Jesus rise from dead and He has spiritual body but invisible because Spirit is invisible, then Jesus somehow become like physical so the disciples can see Him. He was not literal flesh and blood but look like a form of body so that disciples can handle Him or touch His body.  

Brett, all I know is what the scriptures state. :)

Luk 24:37 
  • But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

Luk 24:38
  • And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39   
  • Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Was Jesus lying? Did not Paul say that Jesus became a "quickening spirit?" There has been much contention regarding what happened to Jesus' body. How come the disciples could see and feel it. I have a hard time believing that Jesus deceived his trusted loyal followers. There must be more to a "quickening spirit?" than an invisible being/force.

Strongs Concordance (2227)

zoopoieo {dzo-op-oy-eh'-o}

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

    a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
    b) to restore to life
    c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life
    d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing  


I believe with all my heart that these words are to instruct us.

1Cr 15:42
  • So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Cr 15:43 
  • It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 

1Cr 15:44 
  • It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual   body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


That there was a body is a given, is it a natural body? NO! :)   
Is it perfect, imperishable and incorruptible? YES!
Does it have flesh that can be touched? YES!

Did the spiritual body ascend to heaven? I believe so, but will stand corrected.

Rom 8:11
  • But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you


Once again, comments welcomes

Daren,

Thanks for showing the scriptures.
You said:
Does it have flesh that can be touched? YES!

You mean our old flesh and blood will bring death then in future we will resurrection with new flesh and blood as spiritual body? Since the scripture say flesh and blood cannot inherit the kindgom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). It didn't say "old flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." It seem to me that old and new flesh/blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. The spiritual body are not the same as flesh and blood from what I understand in 1 Cor. chapter 15. So, did Jesus' reserrection have both flesh/blood and spiritual body, too? I am not saying Jesus is lying, no, but I am just hungry for His truth to clear my mind and hope someone can help if God willing.

In Rom. 8:11 didn't say anything about us raise from dead with mortal, but this mean that if Jesus never raised from dead, then the Spirit (Helper/Comforter) will never come in us, but God did raise Jesus from dead now we have His Spirit to our spiritual while live on earth. Let's look from Rotherham in Rom. 8:11, if you don't mind  ;):

If, moreover, the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from among the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised from among the dead Christ Jesus, shall make alive even your death-doomed bodies, through means of his indwelling Spirit within you.

Brett  :)
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: YellowStone on July 25, 2006, 09:55:53 PM

Brett wrote:

Daren,

Thanks for showing the scriptures.
You said:
Does it have flesh that can be touched? YES!

You mean our old flesh and blood will bring death then in future we will resurrection with new flesh and blood as spiritual body? Since the scripture say flesh and blood cannot inherit the kindgom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). It didn't say "old flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."  

Yep, it sure didn't mention anything about new or old flesh. But let's look at what the scriptures do say:

Luk 24:39 [/color]
Here Jesus is asserting to those who doubted that it is he himself. He said to them to touch and hold him. Then he said that he could not be a spirit for a spirit does not have flesh and bones. What did Jesus have then? He had the spiritual body in which he was resurrected, the old natural body had passed away.

1Cr 15:44[/color]

So are we clear on the fact the body in which the disciples and Mary saw, was a spiritual body. Not a spirit, but a spiritual body, that is free from sin, perfect, incorruptible and inperishable fit for life in his kingdom. Why would Jesus need such a body? Because it is the fulfillment of scripture:

1Cr 15:42
1Cr 15:43 [/color]

What was sown? It was his natural body. What was raised? his spiritual body. :)

Brett wrote:

It seem to me that old and new flesh/blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. The spiritual body are not the same as flesh and blood from what I understand in 1 Cor. chapter 15. So, did Jesus' reserrection have both flesh/blood and spiritual body, too? I am not saying Jesus is lying, no, but I am just hungry for His truth to clear my mind and hope someone can help if God willing.  

You are right, I do not believe that "flesh and blood" body is the same as a spiritual body, but Jesus's body must have been raised.

In John 2:19-21, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, 'It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?' But He was speaking of the temple of his body." 

Notice that Jesus was speaking of His body.  Remember what Jesus said in Luk 24:39 "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

He did not say Flesh and Blood. Nor were we given any evidence of blood on his wounds, because Jesus’ blood was shed on the cross.  Paul wrote of this:

Hbr 9:12 [/color]

Did you notice: but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place. He paid the price with his blood and was therefore (I believe) raised into a bloodless spiritual body. This now shows how he could ascend into the holy place. :)


In Rom. 8:11 didn't say anything about us raise from dead with mortal, but this mean that if Jesus never raised from dead, then the Spirit (Helper/Comforter) will never come in us, but God did raise Jesus from dead now we have His Spirit to our spiritual while live on earth. Let's look from Rotherham in Rom. 8:11, if you don't mind  :

If, moreover, the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from among the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised from among the dead Christ Jesus, shall make alive even your death-doomed bodies, through means of his indwelling Spirit within you.

Brett   
No problem here, we can take comfort that Jesus gave his blood for us and died so that we might be saved.

This has been a great discussion. Did I help your understanding? :)

With Love,

Darren
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: nightmare sasuke on July 26, 2006, 06:43:18 AM
Quote from: YellowStone on July 25, 2006, 09:55:53 PM
He did not say Flesh and Blood. Nor were we given any evidence of blood on his wounds, because Jesus’ blood was shed on the cross.  Paul wrote of this:

Another reason for this is because nephesh (soul) is in the blood, and Christ was raised a life-giving spirit, not a chay nephesh (living soul).

PS. I like your posts so far!
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on July 26, 2006, 08:27:42 PM
Hi all,

Isn't it true that Jesus did rise from the dead as a "life-giving SPIRIT"?

And, doesn't it say that a SPIRIT hath NOT flesh and bone (."..like you see/perceive that I/Jesus have.")?

I think if you add this all up, Jesus only APPEARED as a body of flesh and bone for the sake of the people. A natural man cannot see an invisible spirit being, thus Jesus had to APPEAR as a man of flesh and bone, so that men could actually perceive Him (not that He was literal flesh and bone). This is just what I see in the scriptures...is this what others here see as well?

Cheers,
Jeremy
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Deedle on July 26, 2006, 09:17:55 PM
Eph 5:30 
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Hmmmm...

Deedle  :)
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 26, 2006, 09:22:30 PM
I agree Jeremy, it is apparent that He could change his appearence and/or their perception of His appearence as they thought He was a stranger in town unaware of all that recently transpired;

Luk 24:18  And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
 
Luk 24:19  And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and al the people:

Joe
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: ned on July 26, 2006, 09:40:27 PM
Quote from: jerreye on July 26, 2006, 08:27:42 PM
Hi all,I think if you add this all up, Jesus only APPEARED as a body of flesh and bone for the sake of the people.

Hi,
I agree, I think Jesus appeared as a body of flesh and bone merely for the sake of the carnal people!

Verse:
Luk 24:37  But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

I believe they SUPPOSED that they had seen a spirit, because they knew Jesus HAD DIED.  I would certainly think I seen a spirit if my late father appeared before me.  So, Jesus had to explain to them:

Luk 24:38  And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.    Jesus had to come in flesh and bones so they could SEE him.

I think there is only ONE KIND of flesh for humans:
1Co 15:39  "All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."

Mark16:12 "...He appeared in another form..."  I think maybe the "other form" is still in the (human) flesh, but simply appearing as if someone else, because in Lukes' account, Luke 24:15-18 "And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not known him.....Are thou only a stranger in Jerusalem..."  they just didn't recognize him, he appeared as just another man to them.

Marie
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on July 26, 2006, 11:13:16 PM
Quote from: Deedle on July 26, 2006, 09:17:55 PM
Eph 5:30 
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Hmmmm...

Deedle  :)

 :-\ I am not too certain what your stance is on the subject, Deedle. Do you believe that Jesus IS literal flesh and bones? Maybe I am miss-reading you  ;D

If this verse is to be taken literally, then am I a LITERAL member (maybe a hang-nail?) of His LITERAL flesh (ie: "...we are MEMBERS of His flesh and of His bones")? I see that as being spiritual. I believe I am a member of His spiritual body (hopfully at least a spiritual hang-nail!).

Cheers,
Jeremy
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: YellowStone on July 27, 2006, 01:22:25 AM
I see that not all agree with my take on this.

If Jesus only "appeared" to them in the form of body so that they could see him, why would he have corrected his followers for thinking he was a spirit, for this is EXACTLY what they thought.

Luk 24:37  [/b]
One cannot ignore the fact that "they" thought Jesus was a spirit. (they could see him) Jesus, could have said: "Yes, it is I" But he didn't, he instead corrected them.

Luk 24:38  [/color]
He asked (I assume) why are such thoughts or thoughts such as this arising in your hearts. Why would he correct them?
Why then would he continue on and say:

Luk 24:39  [/color]
Please do not ignore the following scripture, for I feel it is the key to much.

1Cr 15:44
What is the importance of the "body"? For clearly Jesus emphasized it. Well, it could be that it died and was raised as a glorious, spiritual body as promised. :)

In John 2:19-21, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, 'It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?' But He was speaking of the temple of his body." 

Even Paul speaks of the bodily form of Christ long after the resurrection and assension.

Col 2:9 
Strong's Greek Lexicon
Bodily: 4984. somatikos so-mat-ee-kos' from 4983; corporeal or physical:--bodily. (My Strongs Exhaustive Concordance supports this rendering)

corporeal: having material or physical form or substance

And again in his first letter to Timothy, Paul states:

1Ti 2:4 
 1Ti 2:5 
 1Ti 2:6  [/color]

I pray to God that I am being true to his words. I do not discount the fact that Jesus either changed the form of his body or prevented those seeing him from recognizing him.

But I truly believe that words such as: "I agree, I think Jesus appeared as a body of flesh and bone merely for the sake of the carnal people!" (sorry Marie) is taking liberty over what both Jesus and Paul instructed.

Literal can only be applied to the spiritual body of Jesus, for as Paul said:

1Cr 15:51  [/color]
He didn't understand it (neither do I) but he understood that we will all be changed, but not yet.

May the God of us all give us wisdom and understanding.

With much Love.

Darren
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: orion77 on July 27, 2006, 01:46:00 AM
(1Co 15:50)  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

(1Co 15:51)  Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.

(1Co 15:52)  In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

(1Co 15:53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(1Co 15:54)  But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8

(1Co 15:55)  "O death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" Hos. 13:14

(1Co 15:56)  Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law;

(1Co 15:57)  but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

(1Co 15:58)  So that, my beloved brothers, you be firm, immovable, abounding in the work of the Lord always, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.


We have passed, from death (sleep), to life, and this life is in the Christ.  We have been changed, new life, born again, new creation, to the Life and Light of Jesus.  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law, but we have victory through the Christ, so we are no longer under the law, but grace. 

Here in is why the second death can not have power over us, because we have already died, and now are alive in Christ, because our spirit witnesses to us, that Christ is in us.  And to know Christ is life eternal.  Some now, some later, but each in his own time, for the day will come that God will be all in all.

God bless,

Gary
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on July 27, 2006, 03:16:34 AM
Hi Darren,

"a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh or bones..."

If the scriptures state that Jesus IS now a SPIRIT, then wouldn't this then prove that He is NOT (and for the sake of the integrity of the scriptures, CAN NOT be) literal flesh and bone?

"the last Adam was raised a life-giving (quickening) SPIRIT"

"neither flesh nor blood may enter into God's Kingdom..."

Does this not pass the two or three witness test of establishing a truth?

This is just how I see it, bro!
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Deedle on July 27, 2006, 01:48:45 PM
Quote
I am not too certain what your stance is on the subject, Deedle. Do you believe that Jesus IS literal flesh and bones? Maybe I am miss-reading you  Grin

If this verse is to be taken literally, then am I a LITERAL member (maybe a hang-nail?) of His LITERAL flesh (ie: "...we are MEMBERS of His flesh and of His bones")? I see that as being spiritual. I believe I am a member of His spiritual body (hopfully at least a spiritual hang-nail!).

Cheers,
Jeremy

I was just looking at how "flesh and bone" is used in scripture as opposed to "flesh and blood".  It appears to me that "flesh and bone" or just "bone" for that matter has a much different spiritual significance than "flesh and blood" or "blood".  Run "bone" & "bones" in esword and you will see what I mean.  Since no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation (2Pe 1:20), I was just looking to see what other scriptures have to say on the matter.

Christ appeared after his resurection in a body of flesh and bones.  No mention of blood.  The soul of the flesh is in the blood.

Lev 17:11  For the life [soul] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

I just think there is much more to the "flesh and bones" than meets the eye.  I'll keep looking.

Also, the words "of his flesh, and of his bones" from Eph 5:30 is not authentic scripture according to some textual critics of the greek manuscripts.  I thought that was interesting as well

Deedle  :D
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on July 27, 2006, 02:09:09 PM
Hi Deedle, interesting indeed. Amazing how much "scripture" really isn't scripture at all.

Let us know what you come up with on your "flesh and bones" study. To me, it simply tells me that he did indeed shed His blood, therefore, all He appeared as was "flesh and bones". Interesting study for sure.

Cheers,
Jeremy
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Brett on July 28, 2006, 01:19:17 AM
Quote from: jerreye on July 26, 2006, 08:27:42 PM
Hi all,

Isn't it true that Jesus did rise from the dead as a "life-giving SPIRIT"?

And, doesn't it say that a SPIRIT hath NOT flesh and bone (."..like you see/perceive that I/Jesus have.")?

I think if you add this all up, Jesus only APPEARED as a body of flesh and bone for the sake of the people. A natural man cannot see an invisible spirit being, thus Jesus had to APPEAR as a man of flesh and bone, so that men could actually perceive Him (not that He was literal flesh and bone). This is just what I see in the scriptures...is this what others here see as well?

Cheers,
Jeremy

Jeremy,

Yes that is what I see in the scriptures of what you see.

Brett
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Brett on July 28, 2006, 01:34:01 AM
Quote from: Deedle on July 26, 2006, 09:17:55 PM
Eph 5:30 
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Hmmmm...

Deedle  :)

Hi Deedle,

Is this verse you show is from KJV? If so, I checked CLV and Rotherham. These were attempt straightforward from the Greek manuscript of Eph. 5:30,

     CLV
      for we are members of His body.

     Rotherham's
     Because, members, are we of his body;—

To me, the Greek manuscript didn't write 'flesh and bones' in Eph. 5:30 but 'body'. I doubt is literal flesh and bones.

Hope this help you.

Brett :D

Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: joyful1 on July 31, 2006, 10:00:36 AM
Spirit, flesh, spirit but able to manifest as flesh.....or ....something else?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1

Just a thought! :)
joyful1
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Sorin on July 31, 2006, 12:30:47 PM


Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.




This is really interesting because these two verses seem to contradict each other. Unless of course it doesn't say "flesh and bones" in the CLV, Rotherham and Original Greek manuscripts as Brett pointed out.
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: rocky on July 31, 2006, 01:59:02 PM
Interlinear greek online I have states this of Eph 5:30


that members we-are of-the body of-Him.
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: gmik on July 31, 2006, 03:49:37 PM
Quote from: joyful1 on July 31, 2006, 10:00:36 AM
Spirit, flesh, spirit but able to manifest as flesh.....or ....something else?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1

Just a thought! :)
joyful1


This has been an interesting thread but bottom line to me is WE Shall Be Like HIM....that is too awesome, so whatever it is .....I is!!!!
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 31, 2006, 04:48:51 PM
From Rotherham's Emphasized;

Eph 5:29 No one in fact hateth his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as (the Christ) the assembly,

Eph 5:30 Because (members) are we of His body;
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Layla on July 31, 2006, 07:58:04 PM
This is a good thread with lots of good thoughts.  I wanted to share what I have come to see regarding Ezekiel 44.

Ezekiel 44:15-23
But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD: They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.  And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within. They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.  And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.  Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.  Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.  Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.  And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

I believe the exchanging linen for wool means bodies. I believe it is this linen garment that Jesus Christ resurrected in and the woolen body that Jesus Christ appeared before the disciples in.  I believe those who attain to the first resurrection are these Zadok that are capable are doing exactly what Jesus did.  They are resurrected into a "linen" (spiritual) body and dwell in it when in the spiritual realm ministering to Christ and it is exchanged for their "wool" (flesh and bones) body when they are in the physical realm ministering to those who did not attain to the first resurrection. 

Peace,
Layla
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Brett on August 01, 2006, 03:14:41 PM
Layla,

Thanks for the sharing us in scriptures. This is new to me!! :D

Brett
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: joyful1 on August 02, 2006, 11:39:34 PM
Genesis 2:23

"And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Eve was created from Adam, by God and given to Adam by God.

The Bride of Christ is being created from Christ (the body of Christ) by God... and the bride is being given to Christ by God.....so the reference to the flesh and bone seems to be one of a spiritual nature.....any thoughts?

joyful1
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jennifer on August 03, 2006, 07:55:10 PM
Rocky,
I would say that those in the LOF receive their incorrupt glorified spiritual body after judgement.  We enter the Kingdom of God straight after the judgement seat: Matt. 25:34-Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world."
1 Thess. 4:16,17 lists the events associated with Christ's return: 1) Christ visibly returns, 2) The righteous dead are raised, and 3) the righteous responsible who are alive at the time will be snatched away to judgement.  The granting of eternal life is after this gathering together (Matt. 25:31-34, 13:41-43); therefore immortality cannot be given at the resurrection, seeing that this precedes the gathering together.
Grace be with you,
Jennifer
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on August 03, 2006, 09:25:37 PM
Hi Jennifer,

"For the time HAS COME [now] that judgment must begin at the house of God (God's elect)".

I believe the scriptures state that judgment for God's people is now, in their natural lifetime, not after the resurrection.

For those outside the Kingdom (everyone who is not one of the elected Sons of God) are judged after their resurrection (which is the second resurrection) and purified through the lake of fire. Then they are able to come into the Kingdom.

The scriptures also state that "that is not first which is spiritual, but what is natural (natural life is first),then AFTERWARD the spiritual", thus all of those in the LOF / second resurrection must be resurrected with spiritual bodies and not natural bodies. (spiritual is after the natural, not the natural again).

I believe this is what Ray teaches on his website. If not, then someone smack me in the shnozz!
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: rocky on August 03, 2006, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: jerreye on August 03, 2006, 09:25:37 PM
Hi Jennifer,

"For the time HAS COME [now] that judgment must begin at the house of God (God's elect)".

I believe the scriptures state that judgment for God's people is now, in their natural lifetime, not after the resurrection.

For those outside the Kingdom (everyone who is not one of the elected Sons of God) are judged after their resurrection (which is the second resurrection) and purified through the lake of fire. Then they are able to come into the Kingdom.

The scriptures also state that "that is not first which is spiritual, but what is natural (natural life is first),then AFTERWARD the spiritual", thus all of those in the LOF / second resurrection must be resurrected with spiritual bodies and not natural bodies. (spiritual is after the natural, not the natural again).

I believe this is what Ray teaches on his website. If not, then someone smack me in the shnozz!

So are you thinking the LOF and the "second" resurrection are the same thing, meaning resurrection is a process???
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on August 04, 2006, 01:35:18 AM
Quote from: rocky on August 03, 2006, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: jerreye on August 03, 2006, 09:25:37 PM
Hi Jennifer,

"For the time HAS COME [now] that judgment must begin at the house of God (God's elect)".

I believe the scriptures state that judgment for God's people is now, in their natural lifetime, not after the resurrection.

For those outside the Kingdom (everyone who is not one of the elected Sons of God) are judged after their resurrection (which is the second resurrection) and purified through the lake of fire. Then they are able to come into the Kingdom.

The scriptures also state that "that is not first which is spiritual, but what is natural (natural life is first),then AFTERWARD the spiritual", thus all of those in the LOF / second resurrection must be resurrected with spiritual bodies and not natural bodies. (spiritual is after the natural, not the natural again).

I believe this is what Ray teaches on his website. If not, then someone smack me in the shnozz!

So are you thinking the LOF and the "second" resurrection are the same thing, meaning resurrection is a process???

Rocky, I'm not certain how you came to that conclusion based on what I said (?) I do not believe the second resurrection is a process. I believe it is a single event in time. However, I believe that the LOF will be a process...that's for sure :) The LOF follows the second resurrection.
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: rocky on August 04, 2006, 03:35:57 AM
Quote from: jerreye on August 04, 2006, 01:35:18 AM
Quote from: rocky on August 03, 2006, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: jerreye on August 03, 2006, 09:25:37 PM
Hi Jennifer,

"For the time HAS COME [now] that judgment must begin at the house of God (God's elect)".

I believe the scriptures state that judgment for God's people is now, in their natural lifetime, not after the resurrection.

For those outside the Kingdom (everyone who is not one of the elected Sons of God) are judged after their resurrection (which is the second resurrection) and purified through the lake of fire. Then they are able to come into the Kingdom.

The scriptures also state that "that is not first which is spiritual, but what is natural (natural life is first),then AFTERWARD the spiritual", thus all of those in the LOF / second resurrection must be resurrected with spiritual bodies and not natural bodies. (spiritual is after the natural, not the natural again).

I believe this is what Ray teaches on his website. If not, then someone smack me in the shnozz!

So are you thinking the LOF and the "second" resurrection are the same thing, meaning resurrection is a process???

Rocky, I'm not certain how you came to that conclusion based on what I said (?) I do not believe the second resurrection is a process. I believe it is a single event in time. However, I believe that the LOF will be a process...that's for sure :) The LOF follows the second resurrection.

my misunderstanding, I thot this quote " thus all of those in the LOF / second resurrection must be resurrected with spiritual bodies and not natural bodies. (spiritual is after the natural, not the natural again)"  was connecting the two as one with the slash. 

sorry.

Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on August 04, 2006, 01:58:17 PM
ahhhh, I see how you came tothat conclusion. No need to be sorry :)
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: joeshrink on August 04, 2006, 05:40:30 PM
I recently read a book about the mind-spirit problem. Basically the western christian mind set which is dualistic (soul/body) is in deep doodoo (I try to use technical language when I can) scientifically. With the advent of the MRI, science has been able to dispell many myths about the brain and how it functions. Out of this recent research a very minimalistic phylosophy has grown. There are many who believe (and have solid proof) that we really are a sum of chemical and electrical impulses and that a lot of what we think is free will really is predisposition and that our fate is tied to our genes and environment.

The crux of the issue is that when the brain is damaged the essence of the person can change drastically, even engaging in what the Christian world calls sinful behavior- even uncrontrolably. A good example of this is people who have frontal lobe damage  (which is thought to be the center of reason) become very impulsive (follow this link to Phineas Gage http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=fa/phineas-gage) 'So what' you may say. The problem is that those people who were "saved" and lead very Christian lives changed the moment damage occured to their brains.

Here is where I am struggling...

I have always had a fairly deep belief in the afterlife and heaven and hell. I now have had to rethink much of my understanding because I cannot ignore what research after research is finding. I recently have had some conversations with others who are leaning towards the notion that when Jesus spoke of eternal life he was speaking of finite abundant life. It has occured to me that a greater sacrifice would be to live this finite life as Jesus did with the motivation of love--- without the rewards of a positive afterlife. 

What do ya'll think- I have thick skin so you can let me have it!

Joeshrink
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: hillsbororiver on August 04, 2006, 06:31:46 PM
Hello again Joe,

Read this and let us know what you think;

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

Joe

1Co 1:20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: Craig on August 04, 2006, 06:34:10 PM
Quote from: joeshrink on August 04, 2006, 05:40:30 PM
I recently read a book about the mind-spirit problem. Basically the western christian mind set which is dualistic (soul/body) is in deep doodoo (I try to use technical language when I can) scientifically. With the advent of the MRI, science has been able to dispell many myths about the brain and how it functions. Out of this recent research a very minimalistic phylosophy has grown. There are many who believe (and have solid proof) that we really are a sum of chemical and electrical impulses and that a lot of what we think is free will really is predisposition and that our fate is tied to our genes and environment.

The crux of the issue is that when the brain is damaged the essence of the person can change drastically, even engaging in what the Christian world calls sinful behavior- even uncrontrolably. A good example of this is people who have frontal lobe damage  (which is thought to be the center of reason) become very impulsive (follow this link to Phineas Gage http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=fa/phineas-gage) 'So what' you may say. The problem is that those people who were "saved" and lead very Christian lives changed the moment damage occured to their brains.

Here is where I am struggling...

I have always had a fairly deep belief in the afterlife and heaven and hell. I now have had to rethink much of my understanding because I cannot ignore what research after research is finding. I recently have had some conversations with others who are leaning towards the notion that when Jesus spoke of eternal life he was speaking of finite abundant life. It has occured to me that a greater sacrifice would be to live this finite life as Jesus did with the motivation of love--- without the rewards of a positive afterlife. 

What do ya'll think- I have thick skin so you can let me have it!

Joeshrink

I think you are still searching, and that is a good thing.  I would suggest reading the material on the bible-truths site a few times, with an open bible or bibles and prayerfully study.  Conversation with people with varying beliefs is good IMO, but be grounded in the truth,  if you do as I said I think you will be well on your way.

Blessings to you,

Craig
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: ned on August 04, 2006, 07:17:12 PM
Quote from: joeshrink on August 04, 2006, 05:40:30 PM
Here is where I am struggling...

I have always had a fairly deep belief in the afterlife and heaven and hell. I now have had to rethink much of my understanding because I cannot ignore what research after research is finding. I recently have had some conversations with others who are leaning towards the notion that when Jesus spoke of eternal life he was speaking of finite abundant life. It has occured to me that a greater sacrifice would be to live this finite life as Jesus did with the motivation of love--- without the rewards of a positive afterlife. 

What do ya'll think- I have thick skin so you can let me have it!   Joeshrink   

Dear Joeshrink:
Welcome to our forum!

Your quote: "a greater sacrifice would be to live this finite life as Jesus did with the motivation of love",  

Definitely we should give OURSELVES over to Jesus in love, but I don't believe everyone can do this, because not everyone is pre-determrined to.
Joh 6:44  "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.."

Those which have been drawn by God are expected to sacrifice themselves.
Rom 12:1  "I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Our forum has been talking recently about "free will" which I believe will be of interest to you. (see the thread "Free Will")


Your quote: "without the rewards of a positive afterlife".
I believe there are rewards of a positive afterlife":

1Co 3:14  "If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

Rev 11:18  "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Rev 22:12  "And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

In His Name,
Marie
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jennifer on August 04, 2006, 07:52:20 PM
thanks Bobby,
I've reread those LOF series again and am still stuck on Heb. 9:27-28: Just as human beings have to die once, but after this comes judement, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to deliver those who are eagerly waiting for him.  Obviously I need to meditate deeply on those scriptures in LOF 5 & 6.  However, I have never been a beliver in the Rapture and did glean some pearls of widsom from that article.  I ask that you all pray for me that God opens my mind to further comprehension of those truths in the LOF 5 & 6 articles. 
Grace be with you.
Jennifer
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: joeshrink on August 04, 2006, 08:06:15 PM
Quote
Definitely we should give OURSELVES over to Jesus in love, but I don't believe everyone can do this, because not everyone is pre-determrined to.

I have heard this before. I guess you should feel very blessed that you are chosen. Too bad though for those who are not.

As for the scripture you chose to illustrate your point I do not see how that suggests predeterminism. And as for the scriptures you quoted to illustrate a "positive afterlife" - they do not say when that reward will come. My point in my post was that I do not need a carrot dangled in front of my nose to live a life that is loving- both inward and outward.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood.

Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: joeshrink on August 04, 2006, 08:09:01 PM
I read snipets of the link you provided. Interesting arguments. Honestly, a little over my head though. I think though that perhaps some of my conclusions are similar, but have come at them from a different path.

As far as the scripture you quoted "1Co 1:20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." I am not sure what you are getting at. I think this scripture is testament to the transcendence of God. Because he is not bound by finite rules or the emperical method he can trump anything so to speak in his ultimate wisdom. He is not bound by the limited knowledge that earthly philosophers or scientists are. Am I understanding you correctly here?
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on August 04, 2006, 09:12:13 PM
Quote
Quote
Definitely we should give OURSELVES over to Jesus in love, but I don't believe everyone can do this, because not everyone is pre-determrined to.

I have heard this before. I guess you should feel very blessed that you are chosen. Too bad though for those who are not.


Hi Joe, I completely understand where you are with such an idea that some are chosen....and "too bad for those who are not". The only way I get my head around that one is when I read and then reread:

Romans 8:19-21
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

In a nutshell, the whole creation will be made perfect and delivered from the bondage of corruption THROUGH and BY the chosen "Sons of God" (the elect of God). God first chooses a little group, in order to save the larger group (all men). I see this throughout the scriptures. God chose a tiny little people called Israel. He gave Abraham a promise that through his seed (which is Christ along with His body/elect), ALL FAMILIES of the earth shall be blessed.

I also see this truth in nature. Look at a little seed. A tiny seed planted in the ground can eventually turn into a huge oak tree! This little fact of science is God's way of showing mankind how He works. God likes to use a FEW to bless the MANY. This is how I see it :)

Cheers,
Jeremy
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: joeshrink on August 04, 2006, 11:52:03 PM
Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for the scripture- I looked it up and looked at the conext from which you quote and once again it does not seem to have anything to do with pre-determination. If anything the flavor of the context seems to say that salvation is through righteousness - because those who do not have the spirit are not sons of God and the path to gaining life is by putimg to death the misdeeds of the body. See Romans chptr 8: 1-17

I have a problem with quoting scripture one verse at a time. If I remember my Bible history class correctly dividing scripture into verse and chapter is a relatively new phenomenon- and the verse and chapter divisions are under continual scrutiny by most theologians and is believed by many to convolute the original intention of the author. Another issue I have about single verse quotation is that in that format we can really make scripture say whatever we want it to.

That being said I can see your logic- In a way the process of our salvation began with God's promise to Abraham- a man God apparently chose- and has had a ripple effect from there to here.

I wonder if in our efforts to simplify we have not made things more complex- could it be that both freewill and predetermination are at work in the same system and they perhaps are not as paradoxical as we think?

Blessings and Realness!!!

Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: jerreye on August 05, 2006, 05:56:37 AM
Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for the scripture- I looked it up and looked at the conext from which you quote and once again it does not seem to have anything to do with pre-determination.


--------------------------------------
Actually I didn't use the verse to show predetermination. If you have any doubt that the elect were predetermined then perhaps this will help:

Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

There is no doublt (if you believe the scriptures) that the "children of Jesus" were predetermined beforehand, since that is the meaning of "predestinated".
--------------------------------------
 

If anything the flavor of the context seems to say that salvation is through righteousness - because those who do not have the spirit are not sons of God and the path to gaining life is by putimg to death the misdeeds of the body. See Romans chptr 8: 1-17


But this can only be done if God GIVES you His spirit. With MEN, salvation is impossible (you cannot save yourself with your own righteousness...God calls our righteousness filthy rags), but with God, ALL is possible - Mark 19:26



I have a problem with quoting scripture one verse at a time. If I remember my Bible history class correctly dividing scripture into verse and chapter is a relatively new phenomenon- and the verse and chapter divisions are under continual scrutiny by most theologians and is believed by many to convolute the original intention of the author. Another issue I have about single verse quotation is that in that format we can really make scripture say whatever we want it to.


I totally agree. We cannot use one scripture to try and prove any single doctrine. There are MANY scriptural witnesses to the fact that God will save all men (1 Tim 2:4-6, 1 Tim 4:10, Romans 5_18-19, etc etc). If you want many witnesses to these facts, you really should read the content of bibletruths.com. It does a much better job then I do :)

One more point: We read in Isaiah that we are to study the Word "line by line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little". One is not enough, but two or three IS enough.

Mt 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (this is a spiritual PRINCIPLE)


That being said I can see your logic- In a way the process of our salvation began with God's promise to Abraham- a man God apparently chose- and has had a ripple effect from there to here.

I wonder if in our efforts to simplify we have not made things more complex- could it be that both freewill and predetermination are at work in the same system and they perhaps are not as paradoxical as we think?


I honestly don't see how "free-will" can be at work together, seemlessly, with "predetermination". Both concepts are completely opposed to eachother. If you DO have free-will, then you COULD in fact determine yourself whether or not you will be "chosen" or not.

Cheers,
Jeremy


Blessings and Realness!!![/color]


Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: orion77 on August 05, 2006, 11:04:51 PM
God's judgment brings righteousness.  We are all judged, whether we like it or not, and His judgment will bring righteousness.


(1Jo 4:17)  By this, love has been perfected with us, that we have confidence in the day of judgment, that as He is, we are also in this world.


We can be confident, because we are not as those of the world, because we love God, our neighbor, and forgive our enemies.  The whole chapter of 1John, chapter 4, is some great knowledge there.

God bless,

Gary
Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: joeshrink on August 06, 2006, 09:06:42 PM
Hey Jeremy,

Just wanted to thank you for your perspective- but I have to disagree that predeterminism and free will cannot occur in the same system. I have found that most paradoxes can and do have simultaneous actions and that it is only the human mind that seems to place things in paradoxical relationship.

A quick example:

Light and Darkness or if you like heat and cold. Both are defined by an absence of the other, yet there is no place in this world where light and heat absolutely do not exist (only in theory mind you)- so one can say they both exists concurently- perhaps in varying degrees but yet there is no place that is completely dark- or absolutely cold, just as there is no place that contains pure light or absolute heat.

No doubt God has transcended things and continually "predetermines" outcomes, yet we do have choices and a will that is "free"- do either exist in absolute forms? I think not and so I suppose that they exist in varying degrees- a seeming paradox working concurently. 

Now- I don't want you to get the idea that I am completely sold on this model, only that I have found absolutes to be very uncommon in this world- and so I try not to think in them- and always take caution when I hear others speaking in absolutes. Besides "only Syths deal in absolutes" One of the Jedi nights said that in Starwars- I just can't remember which one :) . The lesson though is that using absolute thinking inevitably leads to distruction.

Title: Re: Spiritual body seperate from flesh
Post by: lauraathome2005 on August 06, 2006, 10:17:53 PM
" Besides "only Syths deal in absolutes" One of the Jedi nights said that in Starwars- I just can't remember which one"

That would be Obi-Wan Kenobi  ;)