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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on January 23, 2016, 07:10:36 PM
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But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.
The above is taken from the lake of fire part A.
I understand no human being at anytime ever had free will, no one one has ever made an uncaused choice, so it must be reasonable to think that even our thought must also be caused as well.
Up to now I believed that all choices are caused choices and that my thoughts were original but now something is telling me that even my thoughts are caused thoughts as well.
Are there any here who after studying Rays papers believe they are the originator of their own thoughts ? :-\
God bless all.
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But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.
The above is taken from the lake of fire part A.
I understand no human being at anytime ever had free will, no one one has ever made an uncaused choise, so it must be reasonable to think that even our thought must also be caused as well.
Up to now I believed that all choises we caused choises and that my thoughts were original but now something is telling me that even my thoughts are caused thoughts as well.
Are there any here who after studying Rays papers believe they are the originator of their own thoughts ? :-\
God bless all.
Hi Rick,
Your thoughts are most definitely your own regardless of them being caused. They belong to you. No one else. They are not in another person's head and are unique to you. They exist because of the unique individual you are due to circumstances and causes beyond your control.
As ray said, we are not robots.
Perhaps you should read ray's paper on 'Why does God love you?'
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm
God bless,
Alex
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But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.
The above is taken from the lake of fire part A.
I understand no human being at anytime ever had free will, no one one has ever made an uncaused choise, so it must be reasonable to think that even our thought must also be caused as well.
Up to now I believed that all choises we caused choises and that my thoughts were original but now something is telling me that even my thoughts are caused thoughts as well.
Are there any here who after studying Rays papers believe they are the originator of their own thoughts ? :-\
God bless all.
Hi Rick,
Your thoughts are most definitely your own regardless of them being caused. They belong to you. No one else. They are not in another person's head and are unique to you. They exist because of the unique individual you are due to circumstances and causes beyond your control.
As ray said, we are not robots.
Perhaps you should read ray's paper on 'Why does God love you?'
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm
God bless,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I understand that every choice I make is my choice but its a choice that is forced upon me by all the circumstances that are in place at the time of every choice and every choise will be according to to what God wanted me to choose.
But does that suggest because I don't make and uncaused choice that somehow Im a robot ?
our thoughts are our thoughts in that those thoughs are in our mind and not anothers but my question was are we the originator of our own thoughts or is God causing every thought we have and every choice we make ?
Ray proved that all choices are cause choices but I believe all thoughts are caused thoughts as well.
so I don't believe Im the originator of my thoughts either although Im accountable for my thoughts just as Im accoutable for my choices but I don't believe Im accoutable for what Im doing but accoutable because I like what Im doing.
Im accoutable for my thoughts because Christ said if one should look upon a women in lust he is guilty of adultery which tells me we are accountable even for what we think.
So yes, they are our thoughts but every thought is also caused by God and not us so we are not the originator of our thoughts.
God bless.
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Hi Rick,
God is in control of everything, even our thoughts. We think then we do according to what we imagined.
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This type of presentation of our experiences is not getting more helpful, but rather seems more confusing. :o
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I usually go to the gym during the day, but today the sun was shining on my enclosed front porch causing the temperature there to be 80 deg F. while it was 22 degrees outside the porch glass. I like the sun on my skin and the heat for a change during the cold winter, so I chose to stay home for two hours and take a sun bath in my swim suit and absorb some vitamin D. Later I went to the gym to exercise as is my custom.
So who decided? Me or God?
Did I make a choice between the various options presented to me.
Or was I CAUSED to make the choice to have some fun and lazily bask in the sun?
Let's get real here folks...
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So who decided? Me or God?
Did I make a choice between the various options presented to me.
Or was I CAUSED to make the choice to have some fun and lazily bask in the sun?
Let's get real here folks...
Hi Bob,
I could of used some sun and heat too, not to mention some free vitamin D to boot.
Well Bob, could be both, you chose to choose what God wanted you too, but please lets stay with the original question , are we the originator of our thoughts ?
Are our thoughts independent of our creator ?
God bless everyone.
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Hi Rick, yes even our thoughts are caused as all things are, absolutely nothing is free from the sovereignty of God. But God is working in His chosen to get their thinking aligned with His will and ways.
Eph 4:23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Notice what David instructed of Solomon.
1Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.
God wants us to love and obey Him from the heart, of course it's caused by God, He's sovereign it can be no other way. But He really wants us to understand/comprehend (by the thoughts of a willing mind) and believe that He is the Almighty God and worthy of our worship and obedience of Him. It's one thing to say you believe, it's quite another to live as though you do, that's what He is accomplishing/causing in us. This is from the 'Myth of "Free Will" Exposed' - Part C.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html ------------------
If it is God, who causes all circumstances which cause all of our thoughts and decisions and acts, then clearly our thoughts and actions are not based on uncaused and non-existent circumstances. Clearly our will is caused and not “free” or “uncaused.”
v
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE” (Rom. 4:17).
“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…” (Isa. 46:10).
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).
All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.” And this is why:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).
I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?
If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!
“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].
v
“Thou [you reading this paper right now…] will say then unto me, ‘WHY DOES He [God] yet find fault' [with the King of Assyria or ANYONE who merely does what God Himself has supernaturally INTENDED for them to do?] For [or ‘because’] who has [EVER] resisted His [GOD’S] WILL [Gk: boulema ‘resolve, intention, or PURPOSE.” This word is never translated “will” and is used but one other time in Acts, translated: ‘purpose.’]”
God tells us that the Assyrian did only what He Himself intended for him to do. Paul, likewise, assures us that no one ever has or can go against God’s “intention or purpose.” How then is God justified in punishing the King of Assyria or anyone else for doing what God “intended” for them to do? The answer lies in the HEART of mankind. God said that He would punish “the fruit of his ARROGANT HEART”
The Bible doesn’t say that man doesn’t have a HEART. It doesn’t say that he doesn’t have a MIND. It doesn’t say that he can’t THINK. It doesn’t say he can’t make CHOICES. It doesn’t say he doesn’t have a WILL. It doesn’t say he can’t carry out his will through his thoughts, choices, planning, action, and deeds. What it does say is that: MAN IS NOT A GOD WHO CAN DO THESE THINGS INDEPENDENTLY AND FREELY FROM THE INTENTIONS AND PURPOSE OF HIS CREATOR!! THAT’S what the Bible really says!
The King of Assyria is being punished because he is claiming to possess FREEDOM OF HIS OWN WILL. He claimed that he came up with the ideas, he made the plans, he carried them out, he reaped the rewards, he took credit for being someone great, etc., etc., when in reality God tells us it was all of Him, and that the king was merely a club in God’s hand.
v
Did the King of Assyria understand in his “obscured” heart that it was God sending him to Jerusalem to do His will? No. Does Christendom understand in their “obscured” hearts that it is God sending them to deceive the world and to blaspheme His name through their evil doctrines? No.
“The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers [rillets—small brooks] of water: He turns [directs] it whithersoever he will [desires]” (Prov. 21:1).
It is not in a king to direct his ways, neither is it in ALL MANKIND to direct his steps:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man [Heb: ‘Adam, a human, mankind] is NOT in himself [or in his presumed free will] it is not IN man [‘not in MANKIND’] that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
If mankind cannot direct his own steps: Who then does direct his “steps?”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘STEPS’] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
All is OF God.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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So who decided? Me or God?
Did I make a choice between the various options presented to me.
Or was I CAUSED to make the choice to have some fun and lazily bask in the sun?
Let's get real here folks...
Hi Bob,
I could of used some sun and heat too, not to mention some free vitamin D to boot.
Well Bob, could be both, you chose to choose what God wanted you too, but please lets stay with the original question , are we the originator of our thoughts ?
Are our thoughts independent of our creator ?
God bless everyone.
Our thoughts are most definitely not independent of our Creator. Without God there is nothing. In Him we live and move and have our being. In Jesus do all things consist and have their cohesion. Everything always goes back to God. He is the source. He is the begining and the end.
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This type of presentation of our experiences is not getting more helpful, but rather seems more confusing. :o
With this statement, I agree. it kinda reminds me of the time I was grappling with this in the beginning. "I want to scratch my nose. If I scratch my nose, does that mean God wants me to scratch my nose? What if I don't scratch my nose? Does that mean God doesn't want me to scratch my nose? Can I avoid scrathing or not scratching mynose if God wants it scratched or not scratched? Oh my! What am I to do?"
I ended that episode by scratching my nose! The earth kept spinning and the stars didn't fall from the sky. My nose felt less itchy, too...at least for a little while. LIVE YOUR LIFE! What else can you do? If you know what is right, DO IT! If you know what is good to think about, THINK IT. If you don't know, don't worry about it. If you know what is wrong, don't do it. If you know what thoughts are wrong, don't think them. THOSE are the times when you will learn about the sovereignty of God.
The question was "are our thoughts really our thoughts". YES! YES, they are!
Are they 'caused'? YES! Yes, they are!
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To Dave and Bob,
Its seems to me you both somehow become agitated by my question, my apologies to both of you.
please concidef this, should those of us who eat meat be angry at those who drink milk ?
I trust someday either in this aged or the nexr age God will see to it I eat meat and no longer drink milk but until then I hope you both can be patient with me.
what seems insignificant to the both of you brothers of mine may be very significant to me as Im still learning who God is and.who I am in God.
God bless you both.
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Rick, I am not agitated by the question. I even tried to answer it. The sovereignty of God (to me, at least) is less a matter of building a theory and 'understanding' as it is to be experienced and lived. This happens when we 'obey' (or at least begin to attempt to obey) in the living of our lives. Where is the simplicity in Christ, where is the freedom in Christ by puzzling over where the thoughts WE HAVE originated?
Does God 'originate' the thought in the mind of a rapist to rape? Does He 'originate' the thought in the mind of a guy with an itchy nose to scratch it?
Hasn't God already formed us to date the way He has formed us? Is He able to change our minds? Is He ever surprised by our thoughts?
Doesn't He will for all men everywhere to 'repent'? Has He simply 'predestined' us, or has He predestined us to good works? Do these include or have anything to do with our 'thoughts'?
In Him WE live and move and have OUR being. He is responsible for everything. Without Him, nothing that has been made was made. We are accountable because WE DO, and WE THINK what we do and think. It's not the "will of God" that we continue to do and think everything we do and think. But it is according to the purpose of God in creating mankind in His image that we go against His will for a season. By doing that, He teaches us what and how to think. And when we are matured, we may discern both good and evil.
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Hi Rick, yes even our thoughts are caused as all things are, absolutely nothing is free from the sovereignty of God. But God is working in His chosen to get their thinking aligned with His will and ways.
Eph 4:23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Notice what David instructed of Solomon.
1Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.
God wants us to love and obey Him from the heart, of course it's caused by God, He's sovereign it can be no other way. But He really wants us to understand/comprehend (by the thoughts of a willing mind) and believe that He is the Almighty God and worthy of our worship and obedience of Him. It's one thing to say you believe, it's quite another to live as though you do, that's what He is accomplishing/causing in us. This is from the 'Myth of "Free Will" Exposed' - Part C.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html ------------------
If it is God, who causes all circumstances which cause all of our thoughts and decisions and acts, then clearly our thoughts and actions are not based on uncaused and non-existent circumstances. Clearly our will is caused and not “free” or “uncaused.”
v
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE” (Rom. 4:17).
“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…” (Isa. 46:10).
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).
All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.” And this is why:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).
I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?
If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!
“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].
v
“Thou [you reading this paper right now…] will say then unto me, ‘WHY DOES He [God] yet find fault' [with the King of Assyria or ANYONE who merely does what God Himself has supernaturally INTENDED for them to do?] For [or ‘because’] who has [EVER] resisted His [GOD’S] WILL [Gk: boulema ‘resolve, intention, or PURPOSE.” This word is never translated “will” and is used but one other time in Acts, translated: ‘purpose.’]”
God tells us that the Assyrian did only what He Himself intended for him to do. Paul, likewise, assures us that no one ever has or can go against God’s “intention or purpose.” How then is God justified in punishing the King of Assyria or anyone else for doing what God “intended” for them to do? The answer lies in the HEART of mankind. God said that He would punish “the fruit of his ARROGANT HEART”
The Bible doesn’t say that man doesn’t have a HEART. It doesn’t say that he doesn’t have a MIND. It doesn’t say that he can’t THINK. It doesn’t say he can’t make CHOICES. It doesn’t say he doesn’t have a WILL. It doesn’t say he can’t carry out his will through his thoughts, choices, planning, action, and deeds. What it does say is that: MAN IS NOT A GOD WHO CAN DO THESE THINGS INDEPENDENTLY AND FREELY FROM THE INTENTIONS AND PURPOSE OF HIS CREATOR!! THAT’S what the Bible really says!
The King of Assyria is being punished because he is claiming to possess FREEDOM OF HIS OWN WILL. He claimed that he came up with the ideas, he made the plans, he carried them out, he reaped the rewards, he took credit for being someone great, etc., etc., when in reality God tells us it was all of Him, and that the king was merely a club in God’s hand.
v
Did the King of Assyria understand in his “obscured” heart that it was God sending him to Jerusalem to do His will? No. Does Christendom understand in their “obscured” hearts that it is God sending them to deceive the world and to blaspheme His name through their evil doctrines? No.
“The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers [rillets—small brooks] of water: He turns [directs] it whithersoever he will [desires]” (Prov. 21:1).
It is not in a king to direct his ways, neither is it in ALL MANKIND to direct his steps:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man [Heb: ‘Adam, a human, mankind] is NOT in himself [or in his presumed free will] it is not IN man [‘not in MANKIND’] that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
If mankind cannot direct his own steps: Who then does direct his “steps?”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘STEPS’] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
All is OF God.
---------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I'm coming to the realization that our God controls every aspect of all things, my thoughts, my choices, my life is in His hands.
I feel a certain peace knowing these things and can understand why scripture says work out your faith with fear and trembling because we are not in control of anything.
I'm amazed at the distance God has taken me from believing I had free will, believing in eternal damnation and many other false doctrines.
I see where I was and where I'm at and can trust God to bring me to the finnish line, this fear and trembling to me is not about being lost because I know Christ can and will save all.
That was and is Gods plan , the fear and trembling to me is about when God will get me to the finish line but even still I have peace in that too because all is of God.
It is God who calls,teaches and saves in His time . That I believe and unlike when I was in Christendom , this time my belief is of substance.
Thank you Kat for your patience with me and giving me the answers I need to keep growing in the things of God and not passing judgement on me.
God bless everyone.
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This type of presentation of our experiences is not getting more helpful, but rather seems more confusing. :o
With this statement, I agree. it kinda reminds me of the time I was grappling with this in the beginning. "I want to scratch my nose. If I scratch my nose, does that mean God wants me to scratch my nose? What if I don't scratch my nose? Does that mean God doesn't want me to scratch my nose? Can I avoid scrathing or not scratching mynose if God wants it scratched or not scratched? Oh my! What am I to do?"
I ended that episode by scratching my nose! The earth kept spinning and the stars didn't fall from the sky. My nose felt less itchy, too...at least for a little while. LIVE YOUR LIFE! What else can you do? If you know what is right, DO IT! If you know what is good to think about, THINK IT. If you don't know, don't worry about it. If you know what is wrong, don't do it. If you know what thoughts are wrong, don't think them. THOSE are the times when you will learn about the sovereignty of God.
The question was "are our thoughts really our thoughts". YES! YES, they are!
Are they 'caused'? YES! Yes, they are!
Thank you Dave for that deeply encouraging thought. I can now see why Jesus also says to His disciples:
'I still have many things to say to you, but they would be too much for you to bear now.' John 16:12
Just the sheer weight of God's thoughts can be just too much for us mere humans. After all, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9).
I also remember, when giving a talk on Free Will, Ray saying something along the lines of 'Why am I even up here telling you all this. Just go home and let Him do it.'
Therefore, let us live in the Spirit and put on Self-control (Gal. 5:23)
'For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he' (Pro. 23:7)
Let us therefore take the initiative and 'bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ' (2 Cor. 10:5) and what has He commanded?
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your strength' Deuteronomy 6:5/Luke 10:27
And
'Love your neighbour as yourself' Leviticus 19:18/Luke 10:27
And
'A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.' John 13:34
And
'This is how we know what love is. Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters' 1 John 3:16
'This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His only Son into the world that we might live through Him.' 1 John 4:9
Therefore, I think God wants us to act, to plan, to be proactive in our thinking, to anticipate, to be aware.
As in the the title of the book by Bob Goff 'Love does.'
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Hi Rick, I am realizing that a good understanding of no free will is critical to our 'knowing' God. Because He is the Creator of all that there is and He's sovereign over it all... this means absolutely nothing that exist in His creation can operate or function or exist whether it is physical or mental, outside of Him. This all comes back around to the fact that "He is before all things, and in Him all things consist" (Col 1:17) and "for in Him we live and move and have our being" (Act 17:28).
So even though our thoughts are being caused - since everything has causes, but these thoughts we have are developing knowledge in us. Thinking, forming ideas, figuring things out is the way we learn, it makes us the individual we are, gives us perspective. When you come to the point where you truly and completely believe His complete sovereignty over all things and all of us, then you begin to better understand and 'know' God.
Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
I feel little by little He is being revealed to us more and more, I am so glad to be a part of these discussions.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Rick, I want to hang out with you really bad. You are consistently asking questions that I ask. How important are these questions? I'm not sure, but the Lord has put them in front of us. Thank you for posting
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Dave said:
The question was "are our thoughts really our thoughts". YES! YES, they are!
Are they 'caused'? YES! Yes, they are!
I've been attacked enough times to know that many evil thoughts are caused by external forces. I remind myself that the thought did not originate in me.
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Maybe I have been too, Dennis, but never recognized it. I tend to think these 'thoughts' are down in there, in the "O man" waiting to be dragged up in the open.
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There are at least five words translated "thought" in the New Testament (more if you count the verb forms of the nouns and noun forms of the verbs). This is also true in English, when we 'think' about it. There are passing thoughts, considered opinions, beliefs, fantasies, imaginations, intentions, etc...as well as reactions against all of those which are also 'thoughts'.
Here are the five I found with Strong's numbers, Thayer's definitions, and a sample verse which is translated from the appropriate Greek word. I didn't even look at the OT, though I suspect there are at least as many Hebrew words translated 'thought(s)'.
G1380
δοκέω
dokeō
Luk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Thayer Definition:
1) to be of opinion, think, suppose
2) to seem, to be accounted, reputed
3) it seems to me
3a) I think, judge: thus in question
3b) it seems good to, pleased me, I determined
G1261
διαλογισμός
dialogismos
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Thayer Definition:
1) the thinking of a man deliberating with himself
1a) a thought, inward reasoning
1b) purpose, design
2) a deliberating, questioning about what is true
2a) hesitation, doubting
2b) disputing, arguing
Part of Speech: noun masculine
G3309
μεριμνάω
merimnaō
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Thayer Definition:
1) to be anxious
1a) to be troubled with cares
2) to care for, look out for (a thing)
2a) to seek to promote one’s interests
2b) caring or providing for
G1761
ἐνθύμησις
enthumēsis
Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Thayer Definition:
1) a thinking, consideration
2) thoughts
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
Thayer Definition:
1) to lead
1a) to go before
1b) to be a leader
1b1) to rule, command
1b2) to have authority over
1b3) a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
1b4) used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
1b5) the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
2) to consider, deem, account, think
Maybe some serious thought on what scripture actually says will help determine an answer to the question rather than lumping every 'type' or 'flavor' of thought together.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts (G1761 ἐνθύμησις enthumēsis) and intents of the heart.
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Coveting is a thought. Is God only sovereign over physical sin, ie murder or theft?
Just a thought
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Very quiet or subtle thoughts can be hard to notice if I'm not paying attention. When they are noticed it's like whoa where the heck did that come from? Internal or external I have no idea, but it's obvious they were caused.
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Coveting is a thought. Is God only sovereign over physical sin, ie murder or theft?
Just a thought
Hi Wittenberg, well Jesus indicated that what is in our hearts - our thoughts, are just as important when it comes to sin.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
v. 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
v. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
We have to learn to bring even our thoughts under control, Christ gave several specific examples of how thoughts can lead to sin.
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
Now things may come to mind and these bad things that cross our minds is not sin in itself, no these are just temptation. But it's when we hold onto these thoughts and are drawn to it and desire the temptation, that's when it becomes a problem for us.
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Matt 13:52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
Matt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
Jesus shows us that what is in the heart is of utmost importance to Him, because "For we know that the law is spiritual" (Rom 7:14) and we must learn to think/meditate on the spirit, "but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" (Rom 6:08).
Pro 4:23 Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts. (GNB)
2Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
v. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
v. 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
v. 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
1Ch 29:17 I know also, my God, that You test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness...
v. 18 ...keep this forever in the intent of the thoughts of the heart of Your people, and fix their heart toward You.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave said:
The question was "are our thoughts really our thoughts". YES! YES, they are!
Are they 'caused'? YES! Yes, they are!
I've been attacked enough times to know that many evil thoughts are caused by external forces. I remind myself that the thought did not originate in me.
Hi Dennis,
Its interesting to me you mentioned outside forces , I've had many thoughts before where I said where did that come from ?
What's been on my mind is this cause thought, this may seem strange but God is doing a strange work.
We know , only God is good, so when I desire to do something good what ever it may be Im thinking God put that thought in me.
we also know God does not sin nor does God tempt anyone to sin , but because God created us spiritually weak we sin automatically.
God does not need Satan to get me to sin, that comes with ease. But how is it possible to sin unless we act upon some bad or evil thought ?
Ray said we process information, make choices and change our minds , so if all thoughts are caused as is all choices are caused what I wondering if every thought we have come from either God or Saran ?
God created Satan for a reason which is to tempt us , So my take is that our heads are in a way empty and God puts thoughts in our head and Satan puts thoughts in our head.
That is to me the experience of good and evil. Its these internal and external spiritual forces that give man his thoughts. They oringinat from God and from Satan, does that make sense ?
God bless.
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Rick -
I believe that our thoughts are our thoughts as they are in us and only the individual and Our Heavenly Father have knowledge of these thoughts.
I do not believe we originate our thoughts however, as these are all caused by causes outside of our control, put in place by Our Father.
One of my brothers once told me that Our Heavenly Father cannot read his thoughts.
I believe that the Scriptures teach that Our Father is Sovereign and is the ultimate cause of all things, as He created all things, and He causes all thoughts to come into our minds - otherwise He is not Sovereign.
If we do good, we know that this is of Our Father and is not of ourselves; and if we do evil, we know that He has prepared each one of our steps for us to walk in them.
We know that the end game is that we will ALL always be good and righteous with Our Father indwelling us.
As we learn and partake of the nine-fold Fruit of His Spirit, these Fruitful characteristics become a part of us - and the more He does this, the more we become like Him.
I believe the answer is Romans 9:16, as I understand that things start in our Hearts, before thoughts enter our Minds, and then into words and actions -
Romans 9 (YLT):
15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
16 so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?
21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us --
24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,
25 as also in Hosea He saith, `I will call what [is] not My people -- My people; and her not beloved -- Beloved,
26 and it shall be -- in the place where it was said to them, Ye [are] not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God.'
27 And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, `If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;
28 for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.
29 and according as Isaiah saith before, `Except the Lord of Sabaoth did leave to us a seed, as Sodom we had become, and as Gomorrah we had been made like.'
I still find it hard to accept that there are people in the world that rape, murder, fraud, steal, deceive and lie; and I know the difference if someone steals to feed his starving family or if they delight in taking what is not theirs or worse. As we are to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to His wisdom and plan for His creation, it is best to keep talking to Him about all things, as it is all about His judgements to mould us in His image through our own unique and personal interactions with others.
We should test all things and put them into the subjection of His Commandments; and this includes our thoughts. I like to plan as best I can, and to have clean and clear thoughts - and at times unexpected thoughts come into my mind and I have to address these before I act on them - and only by the Grace of God can anyone of us do the right thing. I know that my thoughts today are clearer and cleaner than in my younger days, and I keep telling the Lord that I want my heart's desire, thoughts, speech and actions to be pleasing to Him.
I hope this helps a little.
Kind Regards.
George.
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One thing I don't think is being taken into account, is that God gave us a brain... what I'm saying is that with our brain we use our senses to evaluate the world around us and process that information. That is what is so incredible about human beings, is that God gave us intellect to think, reason and make decisions. That all comes from how God designed and made us to have consciousness, that we are aware of the world around us and can interact with it.
But the brain is a carnal thing, you know we've had threads about ego, and the brain is all about self. Even seemingly good acts on our part are selfish. Ray spoke about how love is selfish in his marriage article, because we expect to be reciprocated for loving somebody. I think most things we do is with self preservation in mind... I suppose the least selfish reason to do something good would be because it makes us feel good, but even that comes about from our feelings.
So all the things we experience by sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell are things our brain takes in and then guides us to react to... that causes us to then think, reason and make a decision about it. But how does God fit in? Well I'll give an analogy, these comparisons seem to help sometimes. When a watchmaker makes all the intricate parts and carefully puts them together for a time piece, it's from a carefully calculated design. He knows what he is creating and how each part functions, all of it's components are made just for it's particular purpose and so when they are precisely aligned they will work together in a certain way to bring about the desired results. So is God's foreknowledge of this creation.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Think about this, God has design each of us to be exactly as we are and everything that happens is exactly as He intended and knew it would happen, He knows the end from the beginning. He does not need to whisper a thought in anybody's ear to do something good, He already created the components/us that react with exacting precision from the causes He knew would be in play around us. In His foreknowledge He has already seen everything preform exactly as He knew it would and now He is overseeing how every single event does actually play out.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
v. 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.
I'm not saying God never gets involved with His creation, there are plenty of cases in Scripture where He does, but that was His intention. He has made Himself known to us in various ways (Heb 1:1). For now human being are having a carnal existence to gain this experience of good and evil - life, and yes good can and does come from carnal people, it's just a selfish good. It is not until the Holy Spirit comes indwelling that we then begin to have a spiritual experience as well and God's righteousness is developed in us... the called/church only think they are spiritual, you don't know what spiritual is until you actually experience it.
Satan is thrown into the mix to serve as God's adversary, Satan and the demonic realm bring a whole other element of evil to this creation. They are unseen (maybe visible in hallucinations that they cause in the mind) and dreadful to those that encounter them. When you think about a lot of the unexplained seemingly supernatural events, I think most all can be attributed to the demonic realm.
So this is the sovereignty of God, it's impossible to fully realize all His capabilities, His power is truly unfathomable, but we can see it in what He is doing in this incredible creation.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
It's a good thing that we can accept that all this creation is just as He meant it to be. And to think this knowledge has been hidden from the whole world, no matter how much they search and think on it and try to reason it out they cannot, only a privileged few are seeing these things.
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
v. 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Excellent Kat! Excellent :)
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Hello everyone
In Ray’s last article which he left for us, I “rediscovered” where he encouraged us to think and meditate. As Kat brought out, God gave us intellect to think, reason and make decisions.
quote: That all comes from how God designed and made us to have consciousness, so that we are aware of the world around us and can interact with it.
From Ray's article Why God Loves You ……
Yes, you were "fore-known" before you were ever born
God's family, God's plan, God's universe would not be complete without YOU! No one can take your place. There is one of you and there will always only be one of you. You need to think about this and meditate on it. Too many people feel that their life is of little if any value. That's not true, you are so incredibly important to God that Jesus Christ voluntarily laid down His life on the cross, not because your sins had some power over God's life; not to pay some divine debt that you owed God, not to appease the wrath of God, not because He had to die for you, but because GOD LOVES YOU, and He would do anything to prove His eternal love and devotion for HIS FAMILY AND CHILDREN, of whom you are totally unique. End of quote.
Ray was telling us that we can consciously concentrate our thoughts towards certain themes/topics.
This is also indicated in Proverbs 4.
Prov 4:20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. 21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. 22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. 23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. 24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. 25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. 26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. 27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
Another piece of encouragement, dealing with how our thoughts should be centred and which Ray often quoted is
Philip 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on [Greek logizomai = take an inventory of] these things. Colin
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Hello,
We make Hundreds of choices everyday. We might have many choices as to what to do in a particular situation, to go this way or that way, as Ray says: " the Choice you make is the only Choice you could have made".
Regards, Geoff.
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One thing I don't think is being taken into account, is that God gave us a brain... what I'm saying is that with our brain we use our senses to evaluate the world around us and process that information. That is what is so incredible about human beings, is that God gave us intellect to think, reason and make decisions. That all comes from how God designed and made us to have consciousness, that we are aware of the world around us and can interact with it.
But the brain is a carnal thing, you know we've had threads about ego, and the brain is all about self. Even seemingly good acts on our part are selfish. Ray spoke about how love is selfish in his marriage article, because we expect to be reciprocated for loving somebody. I think most things we do is with self preservation in mind... I suppose the least selfish reason to do something good would be because it makes us feel good, but even that comes about from our feelings.
So all the things we experience by sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell are things our brain takes in and then guides us to react to... that causes us to then think, reason and make a decision about it. But how does God fit in? Well I'll give an analogy, these comparisons seem to help sometimes. When a watchmaker makes all the intricate parts and carefully puts them together for a time piece, it's from a carefully calculated design. He knows what he is creating and how each part functions, all of it's components are made just for it's particular purpose and so when they are precisely aligned they will work together in a certain way to bring about the desired results. So is God's foreknowledge of this creation.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Think about this, God has design each of us to be exactly as we are and everything that happens is exactly as He intended and knew it would happen, He knows the end from the beginning. He does not need to whisper a thought in anybody's ear to do something good, He already created the components/us that react with exacting precision from the causes He knew would be in play around us. In His foreknowledge He has already seen everything preform exactly as He knew it would and now He is overseeing how every single event does actually play out.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
v. 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.
I'm not saying God never gets involved with His creation, there are plenty of cases in Scripture where He does, but that was His intention. He has made Himself known to us in various ways (Heb 1:1). For now human being are having a carnal existence to gain this experience of good and evil - life, and yes good can and does come from carnal people, it's just a selfish good. It is not until the Holy Spirit comes indwelling that we then begin to have a spiritual experience as well and God's righteousness is developed in us... the called/church only think they are spiritual, you don't know what spiritual is until you actually experience it.
Satan is thrown into the mix to serve as God's adversary, Satan and the demonic realm bring a whole other element of evil to this creation. They are unseen (maybe visible in hallucinations that they cause in the mind) and dreadful to those that encounter them. When you think about a lot of the unexplained seemingly supernatural events, I think most all can be attributed to the demonic realm.
So this is the sovereignty of God, it's impossible to fully realize all His capabilities, His power is truly unfathomable, but we can see it in what He is doing in this incredible creation.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
It's a good thing that we can accept that all this creation is just as He meant it to be. And to think this knowledge has been hidden from the whole world, no matter how much they search and think on it and try to reason it out they cannot, only a privileged few are seeing these things.
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
v. 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
You bring out some great point, ones I understand and also think about, I know it's impossible to pin point how God works in us.
when I think about the choices I make I realize they really are my choices but these choices I make are made through causes God place before me and yes the choices I make will turn out either the way God wanted them to turn out or the way God knew how they would turn out.
So, if God wants me to do B He sets up circumstance A that He knows will cause me to choose B.
so, God did not force me to choose B, that was really my choice to make, or God set up A which force me to choose B, the only choice possible.
My thoughts are caused thoughts too, so what Im understanding here is the only thoughts I can have or will have are the only possible thoughts I can have according to the thought s God wants me to have.
God is sovereght and there are six billion people on earth today, so, six billion people can not think what they want and choose what they want contrary to what God wants.
Could it be that our intellect is only a tool that our soul uses to express its self through the five senses or through divine intervention or divine interjection.
God bless.
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Since God is operating all things after the LAW of His own will, I felt this from Ray's first free will article may help here as well.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the law of his own will...
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH
I stated earlier that it is through LAW that God controls all things in the universe. Only the ego of the carnal mind is so great that it actually believes it is the exception to the universal rule, and is not subject to law, but is free from law. I tell you assuredly, it is not exempt from law.
We saw that with Adam and Eve, as well as with Peter and all the disciples, that there was always a cause that made men will as they did. But why is it that the natural carnal mind always wills against God? Why does it always will to sin and do evil? And why does the spirit mind of converted man always desire to obey God and do what is good? Could there be a "law" at work here? Yes, indeed there is. The carnal-minded man is governed by one law, whereas the converted man is governed by a different law, but all are governed by law.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:1-2).
Notice that one law frees us from another law, but we still remain under some law. All unconverted carnal-minded humanity is under "the LAW of sin and death." That law controls the unregenerate man. And he cannot, of his own will, break the controls of that law. That law will control him until he dies or unless God intervenes with a different offsetting law, namely, "the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."
I think LAW has a huge role in how we think and how we act. It provides God the foreknowledge to declare the end from the beginning and to call those things that are not as though they were. He knows exactly how everyone of us will act under the conditions that He already knows will come about because of His planning.
Like Kat said, God also plans in advance where He will intervene so that He still does intervene! Yet that doesn't mean our thoughts are not our own or don't originate from ourselves, it just means that they were not free to be any other way.
I really don't see us being empty basket heads were God and Satan take turn throwing thoughts in just because our thoughts aren't free to originate from within without reason/cause.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Alex,
Everything is govern by law, the law of cause and effect , the law of sin and death and the law of life in the spirit.
Its incredible to me how God is sovereght and who knows the ends from the beginning and that our thoughts and choices are caused and at the same time our thoughts are solely of ourselves.
Its totally mind boggling to me , it in itself shows the wisdom of a great creator. I feel totally free in both my thoughts and choices but understand both are indeed caused.
Perhaps a good analogy is the law of cause and effect, if I put my hand in fire I will
get burnt , God did not tell me to put my hand in the fire and my memory will prevent me from doing so in the future.
So Im a free thinker within the parameters of Gods laws which governs what we think do and say.
There are exceptions to Gods laws through direct divine intervention where applicable according to the purpose and will of God.
We are not responsible for our thoughts or choices because of how God created us and the laws that governs our lives but we are accoutable because our thoughts and choices are really ours to think and choose according to Gods laws.
Its all very fasinating , especially when I say to myself , why did I just do that but of course its because of the laws of God.
God bless all.
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Awesome discussion and very edifying.
It reminded me of what the Apostle Paul said once about this battle of the laws governing our wills that God created.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
Rom 7:16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:21 So I discover this principle: when I want to do good, evil is with me.
Rom 7:22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law.
Rom 7:23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
I think this illustrates both laws very nicely. I cant help but picture Jesus spiritually dragging Paul (and us) to God as his carnal mind fights tooth and nail to it's eventual death.
Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.
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I have a friend and we are discussing the subject of free will. He insists that God cannot be the originator all because there are bad things being done that cannot be from a all sovereign God. My friend will always come back to his mainstay proof with this verse..... Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Now he believes that all will be saved and that "a hell of eternal torment" is a lie. He cannot accept that those who burned there sons and daughters could be the cause because... which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
I told him I believe that is was not in His heart but it was in their heart. But he says it wasn't in HIS heart to do these things...so then they must have had free will.
I have gone several rounds with this discussion and it just keeps going around and around. Any help? Thanks
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Here is a excerpt from 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word,' it's not the exact verse you were speaking of, but has the same thought to it.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ------------
A few years ago someone tried to trip me up with this verse:
"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it neither came it into My mind" (Jer. 19:5).
Here, I was told, is absolute proof that God learns new things that He didn’t know before. Nonsense.
This is a simple problem of translating. The word translated "mind" in this verse is the Hebrew word leb, and it means the "heart with its feelings," not the mind. The King James very often confuses heart with mind and mind with soul, as if they were one and the same thing even though there are different words for each.
God’s plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after God’s own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:
"Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).
This is God’s HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:
"For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).
This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show God’s mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.
It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creation—ALL is of God.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat :) I read and study Ray's papers almost daily, but my head just can't locate the help I need at certain times, there is so much.
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I would suggest Micah that you not waste your time as you have no power to make this man see. The blind can only receive their sight by Jesus, THE physician.
That being said, to help you in YOUR understanding and add to kat's post, consider Pharoah. What was God's heart saying to him? 'Let my people go!' What was the mind and plan of God? Harden pharoah's heart so that he would resist His will and desire! Read romans again where paul by inspiration of God speaks of this very thing.
Remember, God's SPIRIT GARNISHED the heavens, but HIS HAND formed the crooked serpent, the waster to destroy who goes to and fro in the earth devouring the dust, that dragon, leviathan of the sea--Satan.
God's will and plan to accomplish that will can at times seem to us as almost contradictions but they are not. We must not lean on our own understanding for His ways are higher than ours as the heavens are to the earth.
Hope this helps some, ray talks in great detail about pharoah's ordeal. Even that of assyria, the club in His hand used to bring low His people and humble them. They did great destruction and evil but were nonetheless at the mercy of the Great God who used them to accomplish His purpose.
Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to evil because it is not of him who wills or does but of God who shows mercy.
God bless,
Alex
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Thanks brother :) My friend is just hanging on to the " which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." as his stand. It is clear in my mind/heart and breath that my Lord and God is sovereign in all things. Thanks again