bible-truths.com/forums

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: acomplishedartis on January 26, 2014, 11:55:36 PM

Title: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 26, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
I grew up in Christian church (protestant denomination), it has been already like 10 years since I got out of her.

Recently I have been having suspicions on the great degree of evil performed on these spiritually dark places, and I believe my suspicions haven't been so out of reality.



Here is a quote from part 10 of the lake of fire series;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE THRONE AND SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN LOCATED

The truth is that Smyrna and Philadelphia each had the same giant spiritual weaknesses. And what is true for one and two is also true for all.

SMYRNA: "…I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN" (Rev. 2:9.)
PHILADELPHIA: "Behold, I will make them of THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, which say they are Jews and are not" (Rev. 3:9.)

We are to come out of carnality and be converted, and become spiritual Jews, a people who truly worship (give thanks, laud, and praise) God IN SPIRIT.
So if one has religion, but is not converted, what is he? The Scriptures plainly tell us that he is a member of "THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN."

WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?

The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here I am just talking my mind now, since I got out of Church, I used to believe that the church only had some theology problems for lack of study and because of their sponsorship to a denomination, and I thought they where just places of well intended people ignorantly playing church while usually trying to be good family members, good citizens and good parishioner.

I haven't make a deep study on what I am about to say, but my lately suspicions are that Churches are

sects, where you can find magic, hypnotism, mind control, persuasive propaganda--shameless emotional

manipulation (through clever speech, music, social pressure), satanic rituals, psychological coercion, outright lies,

brazen deception to get money from members, and I am sure you can add to this list.



If somebody thinks my suspicions are way out of line, let me know. If somebody thinks alike and know more about some point I have mentioned and would like to confirm my suspicious, let me know. If somebody would like to add to the list... just do it.


Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Rhys 🕊 on January 27, 2014, 02:03:04 AM
Sounds right to me.

Blind guides leading the blind. I think they do a lot of things without knowing what they really are doing. I'm sure the majority think they are doing the right thing but can't see it. Some may have other motives but if others know then what are they doing about it.

It's a place where deception reigns and when you see how deep you are in it you want to run the other way.

Rhys
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 27, 2014, 04:12:32 AM

It's a place where deception reigns and when you see how deep you are in it you want to run the other way.

Rhys

I hear you.

And I guess we can't expect differently since we know that Satan is running the show from the top. Most of the things on the list are performed by the church leaders, they are the ones more accountable.

I don't mean to start a post that could give the impression of just trowing rocks to the institution. Everybody knows here that these church deception happening is all part of The Plan at large. What my post is all about is trying to put together some deeper knowledge on the subject.

I have some family and old friends playing church and I never see them down, they are probably more happy persons than me (you know..many times ignorance is bliss).

Always better to run the other way.

Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: santgem on January 27, 2014, 06:08:30 AM
 
Church is Charity! :D
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Rhys 🕊 on January 27, 2014, 06:15:49 AM
I see where your coming from.

One would be lovers of pleasure than of God.....too much involved with having a good time rather than coming to terms with God's truth which can be unpleasant so many stay away from it. The pleasure is seen by them as some sort of reward for doing well.

Rhys
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: arion on January 27, 2014, 08:20:39 AM
Ray had mentioned it in one of his papers that some of the most superstitious people in the world are in the church system.  I was in that for awhile early in my walk with the 'positive confession' nonsense.  It got to the point that if I was sick I could never even say so because you possess what you confess.  So there I would be sicker than a dog and confessing that I was at the pinnacle of health.  And then there are believers that are preoccupied with demonology and satan.  Everything that happens to them is satan attacking them and they would never voice anything because satan would overhear them, ect.  But, you have to be in 'her' in order to come out of her.  No wonder the non-believers look at the 'church' and shake their heads in amazement.  What a spectacle!!   :P
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Dave in Tenn on January 27, 2014, 02:47:02 PM
Can't help but agree with all your points.  Though some are worse than others in some ways, when they are truly honest, a 'worship experience' IS thought out and performed to manipulate emotions...and if you don't 'feel' it, then you just aren't very godly, are you?

What did Jesus say?

Luk 7:31-35 To whom, then, shall I be likening the men of this generation, and to whom are they like? Like are they to little boys and girls sitting in the market and shouting to one another and saying, 'We flute to you and you do not dance! We wail to you and you do not lament!'"

For come has John the baptist, neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you are saying, 'A demon has he!'"  Come has the Son of Mankind, eating and drinking, and you are saying, "'Lo! a man gluttonous and a tippler, a friend of tribute collectors and sinners!'"  And justified was Wisdom by all her children."

Rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn, Paul said.

And what if it were only some doctrinal errors?  The worst "doctrinal errors" believed the strongest lead to the greatest evils, whether suffered by the 'believer' or perpetrated by them.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: lareli on January 27, 2014, 06:11:03 PM


If somebody thinks my suspicions are way out of line, let me know. If somebody think alike and know more about some point I have mentioned and would like to confirm my suspicious, let me know. If somebody would like to add to the list... just do it.




I wouldnt say your suspicions are way out of line but I will say that they dont apply to all churches. I go to a church that is a bunch of well intentioned people who, I believe, are just following the beliefs and traditions as they've been handed down. I honestly dont think many people in my church have ever even thought to ask an interesting question regarding contradictions in what they believe. I think they've been brain washed (as we ALL have been at one time) to think that if they just believe and dont question, then that is evidence of their strong faith. But I wouldnt say theres any satanic occult, magic, or trickery going on... Just ignorance and lazy thinking/reasoning and fear of doubting the institution. We've all been there.

Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: rick on January 27, 2014, 06:31:00 PM
Hi Mosies,

Its like Ray said ( have the churches gotten any better in the last two thousands year? No, they gotten worst.

Churches are the synagogue of Satan, they were in Christ day and they are also in our day. If Jesus went into any church today He would not be any more excepted today as He was back in His day.

If I were to teach in any church what I learned here at B. T. Would I be excepted or rejected ? I think you know the answer.  ???

Its like Isaiah said , But Lord who has believed our report? Certainly not those in Christendom .  :(

So all the things you mentioned most likely are true and probably even worst than one could imagine.  ::)

But the Good news is, its all in the plan of God and what ever is going on in the churches today  I / we are not apart of and that be of God and not ourselves.


Peace and Love to all.    :)
 
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: rick on January 27, 2014, 07:16:10 PM

If somebody thinks my suspicions are way out of line, let me know. If somebody think alike and know more about some point I have mentioned and would like to confirm my suspicious, let me know. If somebody would like to add to the list... just do it.


I wouldnt say your suspicions are way out of line but I will say that they dont apply to all churches. I go to a church that is a bunch of well intentioned people who, I believe, are just following the beliefs and traditions as they've been handed down.[/color]


Hi Largeli,

I agree with your statement, when I used to attend church services, I was not involved in those things Mosies mentioned , I doubt most parishioner are involved either, most believe they are worshiping God ,  I believed I was worshiping God but I was not worshiping God in spirit and in truth, I know that now but not then at that time.

It is my belief that what Mosies is talking about most likely would be and internal thing going on with the hierarchy and most likely not all churches either.

I  believe all those in Christendom do not worship in spirit and in truth because they are not being taught truth and that is no fault of their own either.

I do believe there is much fraud and greed going on in most churches, and any church that is telling folks good people go to heaven and bad folks go to hell have no truth in them at all.


Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 28, 2014, 02:45:30 AM
I am resting my main topic and my main points on the fact that the ''The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!''
And I will say again that what my post is all about is trying to put together some deeper knowledge on the very great evil happening in the Church.

With that said, I would like to expand on my point regarding hypnotism in the Church and confirm my suspicions. The quote is just informational, the author claims to be looking at this phenomena from a strictly psychological point of view, and I think that people here will find it very interesting:




            The 5 Stages of Hypnosis
A typical hypnotherapy session contains five stages:

1.    Introduction

2.    Induction

3.    Deepening

4.    Suggestion and;

5.    Awakening. 

It is the contention of this author that the same five stages can be found within most Christian church services.  The hypnotic techniques employed during church sessions have served to further entrench Christian beliefs into the minds of Christian subjects and so demonstrates the mentally manipulative religious package offered by the Christian religion. 

According to professional hypnotists, the subject's mind must contain four primary criteria in order for the hypnosis to work.  The acronym is known in the profession as, B.I.C.E:

1.    Belief

2.    Imagination

3.    Conviction and;

4.    Expectation


These elements are generally found in abundance in the mind of the true believing, church going Christian.  Generally, those who attend church believe that their pastor or preacher is speaking the word of god, which has very powerful psychological implications and satisfies the first criteria of the list above.  Further, the church goer’s imagination is engaged at almost all times throughout the service, during the singing, the sermon, the prayer and it is probably the hardest working aspect of the four criteria set out above.  Next, professional hypnotists say that the subject must have conviction and the stronger the better!  There is almost nothing in this world that inspires conviction, like one’s religious beliefs.  The attendee is convinced that the church service is permeated by the spirit of their god, which leads to the expectation, that they will “feel the spirit.”  In truth, the elation one gets from “feeling the spirit” may be little more than the pleasure and catharsis of entering a trance.



In many services, not all, but many, music will be played while the collection plate is being passed around.  During which time, the preacher, pastor or minister, will be saying something like “give to god”, “give to Jesus” repeatedly.  Well he did suffer immensely and die for you!  The least you could do is give him a few dollars, right!  The truth is, as shocking a revelation as this might be to some Christians; Jesus does not get the money!  With believers already in a highly suggestible state, the peer pressure and repeated suggestion, “give to god” places both conscious and subconscious pressure on the congregant to pay the church money. 



There are many denominations of Christianity each with their own slightly unique order of service, however there are commonalities between most Christian services and these commonalities are designed to mentally manipulate the participant via trance induction, so that their subjective beliefs about god and the truth never come into question.





Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 28, 2014, 03:03:18 AM
I was in that for awhile early in my walk with the 'positive confession' nonsense.  It got to the point that if I was sick I could never even say so because you possess what you confess.  So there I would be sicker than a dog and confessing that I was at the pinnacle of health.  And then there are believers that are preoccupied with demonology and satan.  Everything that happens to them is satan attacking them and they would never voice anything because satan would overhear them, ect. 

Arion, those are good examples of what I mean in respect to 'psychological coercion', ...and we haven't even start with the ''hell'' card for new comers.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 28, 2014, 03:12:44 AM
Can't help but agree with all your points.  Though some are worse than others in some ways, when they are truly honest, a 'worship experience' IS thought out and performed to manipulate emotions...and if you don't 'feel' it, then you just aren't very godly, are you?

Yes, I would go as far as comparing worship music played in church with a jingle for a commercial, or with a national anthem.

Dave, I see what you are saying, sometimes people tent to feel guilty the days that they don't 'feel' it.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: loretta on January 28, 2014, 03:23:09 AM
You're spot on there Moises. But I'm glad that you've decided to rest your case/topic.  I know from personal experience that researching into this subject is like entering a bottomless pit - isn't that where satan will be someday?!  You'd be better off delving into the deeper truths of God. :)

Your post about hypnotism in the church though is revelatory.  Now I can understand why the traditional churches are full of mindless beings.  I was one of them and I couldn't fathom why an intelligent person like myself was so conned into believing such nonsense.  Actually there are far more intelligent people still being lulled into a hypnotic trance in the evangelical churches. 

But now that the spell is broken, I see!  But try explaining it to those still in the church and you will see a veiled look come into their eyes. Eerily spooky, but they are just not able to see.  And this too is the work of satan.

2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


And it applies to all churches, however well intentioned the leaders or members.  So if you have had your eyes opened by God, flee.


The pleasure is seen by them as some sort of reward for doing well.

And they are constantly teaching us this blatant lie, telling us how we ought to live our lives, blah blah.  Which bothers me alot as I do not know how to respond to them or correct their erroneous teaching. 


What did Jesus say?

Luk 7:31-35 To whom, then, shall I be likening the men of this generation, and to whom are they like? Like are they to little boys and girls sitting in the market and shouting to one another and saying, 'We flute to you and you do not dance! We wail to you and you do not lament!'"


tks Dave. I never did understand this scripture till now. :)
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 28, 2014, 03:26:22 AM

It is my belief that what Mosies is talking about most likely would be and internal thing going on with the hierarchy and most likely not all churches either.


Hi Rick,

I am only talking about Churches who are part of any Christian denomination/institution, and believe in free-will, hell, etc. and their treefold service structure is singing, the sermon and closing with prayer or song...


Loretta
thanks for your contribution. And yes, it applies to all Christendom, some might not be able to see it yet, but eventually it becomes evident.



Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: octoberose on January 28, 2014, 04:53:19 AM
May I add a different thought to this discussion?
 I had the opportunity to go to an exhibit this weekend on the Bible and how the Bible was assembled from  its earliest letters to now. They showed a few fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and copies of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls, original   Latin manuscripts and then early translations of the Bible in English. Did you know the Bible was only translated in Latin for over 600 years? And to translate it in other languages for many of those years was punishable by death. What really struck me was the story of William Tyndale, a brillant and talented linguist who who was burned at the stake in 1536 for translating the Bible into English. He defied the Catholic church with the intent that the "boy who drives the plow" know more scripture than the Catholic clergy. Until then, you and I would only have been able to hear the Word of God in a dead language and we would have had to listen to the interpretations of the Word from others. Tyndale's last words were, "Lord, open the king of Englands eyes". Why do I bring this up? Because as far as I know, Tyndale had no concept of universal reconciliation and he probably believed in the Trinity, but he was willing to die to bring  us the words that you and I read every day. God used him mightily and in fact, answered his prayer when three years later the king 'allowed' the "Great Bible" to be translated in English. There's just nothing in me that wants to belittle the men and women who have (and are still being)  martyred in order to follow what they believe God is asking of them.
 It's easy to believe what we believe (because God has given it to us)  but who in this forum will be asked to die to declare it? Maybe some of us will, but until that day we are pretty safe and comfortable behind our computers as we express ourselves however were choose to one another. There are others who assemble in a building with the word church on it, and they give, and they are kind, and they ask forgiveness, and they study and do many works of service only because they love God . I just don't have it in me to do anything other than look on them compassionately as I declare the hope that God has given me. Thanks for listening.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Kat on January 28, 2014, 10:50:32 AM

Ray also had a conference with an extensive study on 'How We Got The Bible,' which reveals much about what you were speaking of Octoberose.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

I do not believe there is any intent to "belittle" any people that have worked according to the will of God as His plan has determined it to be, nor those people that just blinded follow the teaching of the church leaders. His plan will determine what place each and every one of us will hold, some vessels of honor, some of dishonor and we have no say in the matter, "that no flesh should glory before God" (1Co 1:29).

But it is also God's will that we be prudent to recognize those that are deceived and blinded to the truth and to avoid them.

Mal 3:17  "They shall be Mine," says the LORD of hosts,
       "On the day that I make them My jewels.
       And I will spare them
       As a man spares his own son who serves him."
v. 18  Then you shall again discern
       Between the righteous and the wicked,
       Between one who serves God
       And one who does not serve Him.

Pro 14:7  Go from the presence of a foolish man,
       When you do not perceive in him the lips of knowledge.
v. 8  The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way,
       But the folly of fools is deceit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: se7en on January 28, 2014, 03:03:32 PM
Moises,

I absolutely agree with you on what you are saying.

I'm a professional magician by trade. I entertain and perform magic for audiences for fun.  Those hypnosis steps not only work for hypnosis, but those are exactly the same type of steps a magician will follow to perform an illusion. So as hypnosis is in the throne of the church, so is magic and manipulation.

As a magician, I always have to leave out a bit of truth for every illusion I perform. If I was to show you everything, and tell you everything, the effect would be less than magical... it would be mundane and no fun to watch.  The audience would feel let down, they have an expectation to witness a miracle.

It's very subtle, I perform a lie with my speech, through time misdirection, or misdirection/placement of your five senses. If I can focus your eyes and attention here.... I can do "the behind the scenes work" over here. There are so many ways to do this.

The church is rampant with these effects, via doing good works, constantly busy with meetings, and teachings (that leave out bits of truth) and MORE good works. It is through all of that, that we are tricked into believing that we are righteous and doing good.  We say "I'm so glad that I do all these things God and I'm not like this publican over here." 

God is the greatest magician of all time and His master delusion blinds us all to the Truth for a time, worked by the churches where the throne of Satan sits... inside all of us, until self is de-throned by the brightness of His coming :)

Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: lareli on January 28, 2014, 05:02:16 PM
There are others who assemble in a building with the word church on it, and they give, and they are kind, and they ask forgiveness, and they study and do many works of service only because they love God . I just don't have it in me to do anything other than look on them compassionately as I declare the hope that God has given me. Thanks for listening.

Yes.

And in reference to what you said about Tyndale, what matters to God? Does He care more about how "right" we are in what doctrine we believe, or does He care more about whether or not we DO what He says? Knowing the "deeper truths" wont save anyone. You can know all the mysteries of God and still be just a noisy gong if you dont have love for your neighbor. Theres a lot of people who attend "church" who are humble in spirit and love God and their neighbor as was commanded.


Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: John from Kentucky on January 28, 2014, 07:53:56 PM
What does Jesus say?

...Come out of her My people, that you not be partakers of her sins, and that you do not receive her plagues. Rev 18:4

Satan appears as an angel of light.  Satan's ministers appear good, as do the church goers.

Listen to Jesus!  Don't be stupid.  Run as fast as you can from the Christian churches.  Separate yourselves from them.  Don't look back.

Join the small few in the Church of the Living God in the Spiritual Wilderness.  Where God will protect you for a time, times, and half a time.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: thewatchman on January 28, 2014, 08:37:14 PM
I'd like to add one thought as a bit of balance here.

"A deceived person never knows he is deceived."

Did we know when we were at church? Most likely not. It took the Rhema revelation from God who picked us out of the throng for no other reason other than his will to do so for us to know any better. We were no more special than anyone else and remain so. To our Father goes all the glory. I am grateful he chose me to know, but I cannot take any glory in it. He chose me, I didn't do a thing other than obey.  8)
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Dave in Tenn on January 28, 2014, 11:53:09 PM
Me either, watchman.  I wasn't even 'looking', just minding my own sick business.

Does having the 'right doctrine' matter?  Ask somebody who has lived a life terrified of the thought that they or their loved ones might spend eternity burning, and who cowed to every religious demand to keep that from happening.  Ask somebody who used to DELIGHT in the thought of Hell and the punishment god would wreak on their enemies.  Me?  I was never really the latter (at least not for more than a fleeting moment), but that was only by the grace of God.  I had other problems stemming from carnal religion.  Genuinely believing the 'right doctrine' changes lives, and for the better.

As for the rest of it?  I reckon you actually have to believe it to know what it does to your heart.  I am ready to testify that all I want to do is believe it MORE (and more consistently), not less and not other.  So I take some issue with the thought that simply having the 'right doctrine' doesn't make one 'righteous'.  Maybe not.  I am sure there are those who put a check in the "universalist" box and never grow up.  But what a necessary way to start! 

I don't doubt that there are plenty of fine, moral, selfless, loving, god-worshipping people in the churches.  But I can't be convinced that these such people "really" believe (or have given any serious thought to) the 'doctrines' they are hearing.  If they really DID, then they BY DEFINITION couldn't be fine, moral, selfless, loving God-worshippers.  And if they DON'T "really" believe, then why do they keep company with and support those who do?  I reckon each has their own answer and WILL answer in time.  I've certainly had to...and continue to.     
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: rick on January 29, 2014, 12:21:11 AM
J.F.K., you nailed it right on the head. Your understanding is incredible, why should we care about what Satan is doing in his domain ? The subject seems to be more about Satan than God .

I had to rethink this thread and asked myself one question. Who cares about what is taking place in any church outside of the church of Christ because we know its everything but Godly.

Moises , seriously, what's all this fuss about what the devil is doing, the bible says He's like a roaring lion seeking who he may devourer. 

And this thread could devourer us if we keep on with it. Moises, you need to repent for doing this thread.

No offence Moises but I come here to learn about God not the devil. The devil is not worth talking about and you know that too, so let it go.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: loretta on January 29, 2014, 12:25:14 AM
And in reference to what you said about Tyndale, what matters to God? Does He care more about how "right" we are in what doctrine we believe, or does He care more about whether or not we DO what He says? Knowing the "deeper truths" wont save anyone. You can know all the mysteries of God and still be just a noisy gong if you dont have love for your neighbor. Theres a lot of people who attend "church" who are

Yes, believing the right doctrine does matter.  I was 'humble in spirit and loved God and my neighbor as was commanded' till I learnt the right doctrine.  Then my spiritual house came tumbling down!

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

And so, dear reader, if you have built your spiritual house upon the sand of this world’s great Church, you are warned to COME OUT OF HER, because she is going to fall, and "GREAT will be the fall of it."

This then, is the condition of ALL the saints at some time in their life, as they along with John, "…stood upon THE SAND OF THE SEA, and saw a wild beast rise up out of the sea…"

Now Jesus does not leave us in the dark as to just what the sand represents in this set of parables. Jesus says,

"And everyone who hears these SAYINGS OF MINE, and does them NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man which built his house upon the sand…" (Matt. 7:26).

What is missing in this house that we built upon the sand? Why it is a solid foundation, of course.

JESUS CHRIST—THE ONLY LASTING AND SURE FOUNDATION


What does Jesus say?

Join the small few in the Church of the Living God in the Spiritual Wilderness.  Where God will protect you for a time, times, and half a time.

JfK, I thought that the churches of Christendom are in the spiritual wilderness  :-\ going around the mountain for 40 years instead of crossing over into the promised land.  I think I am wrong though, but I can't find the scripture you reference.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Dave in Tenn on January 29, 2014, 12:51:09 AM
Rick, Jesus said, "Don't do as the Pharisees do."  Why would He say that, if the Pharisees DIDN'T?  Look...the END is good for everybody...including the worst preacher imaginable.  The LOF is made for the devil and his messengers.  They're going to be OK, when the time comes....just as we are being made "OK" now, assuming we are in that 'now'.  If any of us think we ourselves are better in and of ourselves, then we're missing the whole point.  But if there is no 'better way', no contrast, then what is the point of growing in grace and knowledge?

Ray had plenty to say about Satan and his work and purpose.  Remember, he is not the horned, red devil of myth but transforms himself into an angel of light.  He is absolutely necessary for the plan and purpose of God, and SO ARE HIS MESSENGERS!  There is an order to these things...an order He has ordained from the beginning.  It's 'work' to separate, especially for newer believers.  But it's worth it.   
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: rick on January 29, 2014, 01:36:25 AM
Dave, I would say to anyone here, I am least of all of you, it is my hope I have not given any other impression outside of what I have mentioned. I understand Satan has his role as we all do.

I’m not so much angry at this thread as I am perplexes by it. Why in Gods creation would any of us care about what Satan is doing in any church?

Yes I agree Ray has spoken about Satan but for our understanding but there is a huge difference between that which Ray says about Satan and what I understand this thread to be about.

Why should we give Satan any glory whatsoever ? We know from Rays papers about the synagogue of Satan but Ray was not interested in how much evil Satan is up to but rather what his purpose is and how we benefit from it.

Its not my intention to cause dissension but why not talk about what our heavenly Father is doing rather than what Satan is doing. That’s all I’m saying.

Peace and love to all. 
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: cjwood on January 29, 2014, 02:54:44 AM

Moises, you need to repent for doing this thread.



rick, what you said to moises noted above in bold, is not cool.  if the moderators felt moises needed to repent for starting this thread, they would have never let him start it, or at the very least, have already locked it down.  but for one of us to tell another of us we need to repent, for all the world to read, is just not right.

just saying.

claudia


Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 29, 2014, 05:18:32 AM
The church is rampant with these effects, via doing good works, constantly busy with meetings, and teachings (that leave out bits of truth) and MORE good works. It is through all of that, that we are tricked into believing that we are righteous and doing good.  We say "I'm so glad that I do all these things God and I'm not like this publican over here." 

God is the greatest magician of all time and His master delusion blinds us all to the Truth for a time, worked by the churches where the throne of Satan sits... inside all of us, until self is de-throned by the brightness of His coming :)

Se7en
Thanks for your input! it helps to expand the subject. I am glad I made this thread and I don't repent of it.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 29, 2014, 06:25:50 AM

One of my points when starting this thread is that there are rituals being performed in the Church which are of Satan, or better said; rituals that Satan use to keep us away of spiritual matters of truth. Now I am going to prove farther this point for clarification. Think about this, if certain rituals are constantly performed in a Masonic church, this rituals are called masonic rituals. If certain rituals are constantly performed in the synagogue of Satan, then, how can you name this rituals?

Talking about rituals I will quote Ray saying:

You do all these things and you will be a holy person, it will just make your heart so wonderful? But what it does is it makes hypocrites and heretics out of people…

If you don’t see that, you are just spinning your wheels in physical rituals. You don’t get any more obnoxious than holier than thou, seventh day Sabbath keepers and holy sacred name societies. Maybe it’s a secret handshake, it’s like you belong to the Masons and you get a secret handshake and your in, you see. It’s total nonsense.



Usually we get scared about what we don't understand. Satan is just a spirit that is God's lackeys, as we can see it in the book of job, and if we have the spirit that comes from God we have nothing to be afraid about. If we presently find ourselves in a spiritual war fare; I don't think that having in mind this information is useless.

If somebody thinks I being irrationally harsh with the Church institution, just point out one of the points of my list (which are placed on the begining of this thread) and prove it wrong, is that simple, there is no need for hard feelings. On the other hand, I understand how it's hard sometimes to separate what we know to be truth about the Church from our merciful feelings toward those that have been deceived by the Church. But when I started this thread I did said: ''Most of the things on the list are performed by the church leaders, they are the ones more accountable.'' and I stand on it.

And if somebody thinks I am harsh with church leaders, here is what Ray said about them on ("Hell is a Christian Hoax"),

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).


Let's take off the blinders and see who these "angels of the Devil" really are:

You are now looking at cartoon/caricatures of the
"angels of the Devil." There are millions of them, and
like Bill Wiese, they have been "deceiving the whole world."


(PLACE FOR THE IMAGE)

God calls them: Priests, Pastors, Prophets, Apostles, Shepherds,
Watchmen, Teachers, Evangelists, & Ministers, but collectively they
are the "angels & ministers" of Satan.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying that all Christian Ministers are the Devil's Angels, but those that are the Devil's angels are ministers and leaders in the Christian Church. There is no other group that can be called "many" which do "many wonderful works in the Name of Jesus" except teachers and ministers in the Christian Church. It is impossible to even conceive of a single non-Christian who would do "many wonderful works," and do them "in the Name of Jesus." So where would one find "MANY" non-Christians who do "many wonderful works" in the "Name of Jesus?"

I will not use real photos of real Christian leaders, as it is not my responsibility to judge any specific Church leaders. But we are admonished: "...by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince [expose] the gainsayers [those who contradict sound doctrine]" And so, I am exposing this unscriptural and evil Christian doctrine of an eternal hell and those who teach it.

No Christian who has studied the Scriptures and been gifted with even a meager understanding, should be blown away by this revelation regarding the deception of Church leaders. God has always held His church leaders and spiritual guides responsible for the failures in the Church and in the nation. It is shocking when one first reads of God's condemnation of the leaders in His Church.


Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: arion on January 29, 2014, 09:22:21 AM
Paul said;

2Co 2:11  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices

A lot of Christians are very ignorant of his devices as we all were when we were in the church system.  It is not wrong to expose those devices for what they are.  That is part of what the teachings we have received here are for.  Now then, there is an unhealthy preoccupation with such things on the part of many and it gets to the point where many Christians rival the non believers when it comes to religious superstitious nonsense.  I don't think too much about satan as I know that his powers are circumscribed and tightly controlled.  God keeps a very tight leash on him if you will. 

Like in many things there is balance involved.  Some don't want to say anything about satan because they are afraid that gives glory to him and they are religiously superstitious and are also afraid of attracting any attention from the dark side.  And others are preoccupied with things such as so called [the way they call it] spiritual warfare and wanting to learn the names of demons and how to cast them out, ect.  The balance I believe is somewhat in the middle.   Be aware and learn the lessons that God has us to learn about satan and his operations and then move on with the lessons God is teaching us.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Kat on January 29, 2014, 10:28:53 AM

Hi Rick, I think that this thread can be very useful for some that come to this forum. The thing is there are some people that have not come out of the church yet. Some are new to this site and maybe don't yet feel drawn to leave, others have family and friends in church that they are trying to appease by continuing to attend.

So sometimes we have to reveal the dark side in order to see/understand as a contrast.

John 1:4  In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
v.5  And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Eph 5:11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: lareli on January 29, 2014, 06:05:29 PM
1 Cor 13 says you can know all the mysteries of God, which would include the truth about salvation, but if you don't have love... You are nothing.

"Come out of her" does this mean to literally and physically avoid a physical building with the word "church" on the front of it? Isn't Revelations a book of symbols and metaphors?

Isn't it possible for some to heed the call of "come out of her" physically but spiritually remain in the same religious condition?

And likewise, isn't it possible for some to spiritually "come out of her" and yet physically be in the same vicinity as a physical church building?

Like Se7en said, isn't the seat of satan in our hearts and not a physical seat in a physical building?


Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 29, 2014, 10:41:50 PM
1 Cor 13 says you can know all the mysteries of God, which would include the truth about salvation, but if you don't have love... You are nothing.

"Come out of her" does this mean to literally and physically avoid a physical building with the word "church" on the front of it? Isn't Revelations a book of symbols and metaphors?

Isn't it possible for some to heed the call of "come out of her" physically but spiritually remain in the same religious condition?

And likewise, isn't it possible for some to spiritually "come out of her" and yet physically be in the same vicinity as a physical church building?

Like Se7en said, isn't the seat of satan in our hearts and not a physical seat in a physical building?

Hi largeli
Since we are communicating through an online forum and you can't perceive the way I am talking, you should know that I am talking with you with all kindness and respect.

I am sorry but I can't merely see what's your point. Of course we are to come out of her spiritually. Actually in all this thread I haven't even mention that we should come out of the building, what I was saying is how the church institution works.
Once we have come out of her spiritually, personally, I don't see the convenience or benefit of keep going to the building, years ago it was okay for me to go, but I no longer need it, it would be like going to the kinder garden once again. I remember I came out of her first and then when I was ready; I stoped going to the building since I had better things to do. Maybe some day you will be ready.

I hope you have no hard feelings toward me for whatever I have said on this thread. I have just been merely pointing out how things are and work in church.

Here are some emails Ray responded regarding 'church'. May helps:

-------------------------
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2052.0.html (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2052.0.html)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3836.0.html (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3836.0.html)

The synagogues became corrupted and the churches today are corrupted. So where do you want to go?  If you want fellowship why not foin a social club and keep the false religion out of your fellowship.
 
Jesus taught us that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not in this mountain or in Jerusalem, or in a building, or another other "place" that is corrupted.  I can't tell people what to do. If "christian fellowship" means more to them than "godly worship," then I guess they just  have to keep looking.
 
Being a follower of Jesus Christ was never designed to be a "feel good religion" as many christian churches promise if you join their particular tents on living a worldly life for Jesus.  I trully never miss, "CHURCH"!  I "go to church" every time I open my Bible."
God be with you,
Ray


---------------

  Dear Glenda:  Money, fear, and power. It's all about money, fear, and power. Take away the money, fear, and power, and much of Christendom will come crashing down.  It is a damnable thing that many pastors are doing to well-meaning people who think they are following Jesus.  And what is worse, many of these sincere and well-meaning people often become just like their leaders. They defend evil and heresy with every ounce of their being. It is sad. Thank GOD you have been shown the Truth!
        God be with you,
        Ray

-----------------------

Dear Roy:

    You don't need a church when you learn that YOU ARE THE CHURCH.  God is wherever you are, so don't feel deserted.

    God be with you,

    Ray

 
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: rick on January 29, 2014, 11:12:22 PM
Hi Moises,

I see now the misunderstanding is with me and not you,  I apologize to you for things I said out of ignorance and should of thought it through before I posted anything. I’m not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I have my beliefs about the evil one known as Satan. I had things happen to me in the past that were demonic in nature , it was things I experience that brought me to God out of fear.

I could tell you things I experience but to me, that is giving glory to the Devil, and that I will not do. I will say this one thing in all I had experience and its this, I called out to Jesus and afterwards I never experience any demonic thing since .


so, I over reacted is what I did and that is to my shame no doubt. My apologizes to you Moises.  :-[



peace and love to all.  :)
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Dave in Tenn on January 30, 2014, 12:11:58 AM
Largeli, yes it is possible to no longer attend the services and still be riddled with carnal religion.  Yes, it is possible to 'check off' a list of doctrinal positions and still not have love.  Yes, it is possible also to judge people for supposedly having no love without understanding what love is.  Read the "kiss of death" paper on the front page...it's quite short and to the point.

My 'story' is different from many others around these parts.  It was "possible" for me to leave the church and go straight into the world and stay there for decades.   It was "possible" for me to 'come out of her' not because I thought I was better, but because I knew I was worse.

Lots of things are "possible".  You have your own row to hoe, just as each and all of the rest of us do.  For me to visit a church would be much like visiting the ruins of the temples of the ancient greek gods if I found myself in Greece.  But to sit week after week under that influence is not something I can do.  And if I DID for long, and followed my heart in the doing, they wouldn't let me stay.  That's more than fine by me.   :D  But I understand it is more difficult for some.   
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: acomplishedartis on January 30, 2014, 04:52:10 AM
No probrem Rick, I knew you were kind of new around here and that's why I didn't respond.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just for further clarification. I would like to mention that I also have in mind that there is all kind of church leaders that have done wrong in different degrees, as I know that there is all kind of church members that have been manipulated on different degrees. Our minds, our time and the space for writing is often limited and so the best I could do around here is to share a couple points regarding christendom from a general point of view. Thanks God everyone judgement is and it's going to be personalized.

Honestly, I no longer buy the argument about; we pretty safe and comfortable behind our computers typing in the web like cowards, main while brave people die for their crazy heretic religious beliefs out there as we should.
First of all, if we find ourselves physically safe and clean behind our computers it's because this is the playground that God chose for us to overcome our carnality. What matters the most is what we think about all day long and our true wished toward others. Truth is that now days where many of us live, violence is out of fashion, however, we still have to endure other kinds of persecution, like psychological coercion, social pressure, political, commercial and religious propaganda, etc.     

I think that two persons on this thread felt uncomfortable by my first post, maybe because they probably have people closer to them which are Christians, as I do. And neither do I like to see them as people who are being manipulated, deceived and used so badly by their religious leaders. In my case, I often suffer badly for them, while I can't do much about it.

And Paul seems that he was on the same position:
''I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh''
(Rom 9:1-3)

We must learn to separate what we know to be truth about the Church from our merciful feelings toward those that have been deceived by the Church. No body said that this was going to be an easy and not tricky road.
My dad died when I was a kid, and he was a pastor, and of course he was a descent person according to his surroundings, however, now I can separate my personal feelings from what is truth.
And the truth is that God is going to deal with him in total righteousness and eventually he is going to be purified as the rest of humanity.


I believe this is going to be my last post on this thread. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Moises

Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: lareli on January 30, 2014, 05:51:05 PM
1 Cor 13 says you can know all the mysteries of God, which would include the truth about salvation, but if you don't have love... You are nothing.

"Come out of her" does this mean to literally and physically avoid a physical building with the word "church" on the front of it? Isn't Revelations a book of symbols and metaphors?

Isn't it possible for some to heed the call of "come out of her" physically but spiritually remain in the same religious condition?

And likewise, isn't it possible for some to spiritually "come out of her" and yet physically be in the same vicinity as a physical church building?

Like Se7en said, isn't the seat of satan in our hearts and not a physical seat in a physical building?

I am sorry but I can't merely see what's your point. Of course we are to come out of her spiritually. Actually in all this thread I haven't even mention that we should come out of the building, what I was saying is how the church institution works.
Once we have come out of her spiritually, personally, I don't see the convenience or benefit of keep going to the building, years ago it was okay for me to go, but I no longer need it, it would be like going to the kinder garden once again. I remember I came out of her first and then when I was ready; I stoped going to the building since I had better things to do. Maybe some day you will be ready.


If there is confusion its probably because my post that you quoted above was in response to JFK saying  Run as fast as you can from the Christian churches.  Separate yourselves from them.  Don't look back. as well as Kat saying But it is also God's will that we be prudent to recognize those that are deceived and blinded to the truth and to avoid them. and also to all the other anti-people who go to church posts..

Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?







Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Kat on January 30, 2014, 07:52:55 PM

Hi largeli,

Well maybe I didn't express that as well as I could have. We do not need to avoid Christians, I have family members that are active in their church and are very dear to me, I would never avoid them or any Christian for that matter. What I meant is avoid involvement with their religion, I have no desire to join them in their cesspool.

Quote
Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?

If I thought for one minute 'I' could open their eyes to this truth of course I would talk about it to them all the time, but I know it's God that must draw them to Christ.

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

I have mentioned a bit of this truth to family members and they know I would gladly answer any questions they had, they are not interested and I'm not going to force it on them.

How long do you think any of us would last trying to proselyte among a church's congregation?

Mat 7:6  Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Those are Christ's words to warn us against foolishly witnessing. It's not like God is in a race to try to save as many as He can in this life, the elect are chosen even before they are born, they are destined to be of the elect and nothing can prevent or change that.

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

The thing is for most of their lives an elect has no idea they are His chosen, they go into the church along with the rest of the called. Even when they have their eyes finally opened to learn these truths, God does not make it obvious they are His elect even then. I believe it is to keep you humble, it would be too hard for a carnal person to not be haughty about it.

Now the Apostles were sent out to find/make disciples, but consider they were taught directly by Christ and they were starting the church. It's not like we need to make people aware that Christ has risen and people need to repent. The Apostles has a special mission given to them, it does not mean we all are to do the very same thing.

Christ tells us it is, the few, that are to strive to enter the narrow/strait gate, not to try to drag as many through with us as we can.

Luke 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Dave in Tenn on January 30, 2014, 08:56:38 PM
All of my closest family and most of my friends and co-workers have an active relationship with their church.  I neither hate nor fear them.  I do hate much of what they believe, and find it useless at best, and horribly evil at worst.  But I've never convinced anybody of any deep spiritual truth.  The closest I may have come is with those who are already 'underway'.  I don't 'concentrate' on them, but on myself.  I have problems they can't solve, and answers they can't hear.  I reckon when more of my problems are solved, they may be more willing to listen...but that is no guarantee they can believe.  All is of God.

I do 'feel sorry' for many in the pews...even many pastors...but not all.  For the most part (of those I actually know and love) they seem quite happy the way things are, so I don't 'feel sorry' for them in the conventional sense.  I 'feel sorry' for them because they have yet to see the beast rising out of the sea, and having their house built on sand fall, but I know it has to happen, and that soon thereafter, there will be joy--so I can't in faith 'feel too sorry' for them.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: arion on January 31, 2014, 09:32:17 AM
@Kat...

Very well put indeed!
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Rene on January 31, 2014, 10:40:45 AM

Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?



Not fearful, just not interested in WORSHIPPING with them.  Since having my eyes opened to these truths, I do not want to sit in a church every week listening to a preacher who does not know, believe, or understand these truths. I do not believe it is "spiritually" beneficial for me to do so.

2Cor. 6:14 - "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

René

Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: lareli on January 31, 2014, 05:32:02 PM

Hi largeli,

Well maybe I didn't express that as well as I could have. We do not need to avoid Christians, I have family members that are active in their church and are very dear to me, I would never avoid them or any Christian for that matter. What I meant is avoid involvement with their religion, I have no desire to join them in their cesspool.

Quote
Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?

If I thought for one minute 'I' could open their eyes to this truth of course I would talk about it to them all the time, but I know it's God that must draw them to Christ.

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

I have mentioned a bit of this truth to family members and they know I would gladly answer any questions they had, they are not interested and I'm not going to force it on them.

How long do you think any of us would last trying to proselyte among a church's congregation?

Mat 7:6  Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Those are Christ's words to warn us against foolishly witnessing. It's not like God is in a race to try to save as many as He can in this life, the elect are chosen even before they are born, they are destined to be of the elect and nothing can prevent or change that.

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

The thing is for most of their lives an elect has no idea they are His chosen, they go into the church along with the rest of the called. Even when they have their eyes finally opened to learn these truths, God does not make it obvious they are His elect even then. I believe it is to keep you humble, it would be too hard for a carnal person to not be haughty about it.

Now the Apostles were sent out to find/make disciples, but consider they were taught directly by Christ and they were starting the church. It's not like we need to make people aware that Christ has risen and people need to repent. The Apostles has a special mission given to them, it does not mean we all are to do the very same thing.

Christ tells us it is, the few, that are to strive to enter the narrow/strait gate, not to try to drag as many through with us as we can.

Luke 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kat thanks for your patience and understanding.

I have never heard anyone say that making disciples was only for the Apostles who were taught directly by Christ. Im not disagreeing with you and Im actually hoping youre right but if thats true then it raises more questions such as...

If making disciples, feeding the sheep, preaching the good news, etc. was only for the apostles, then what is it that the elect are supposed to be doing? Surely the elect arent just supposed to hang out and lay low until Christ returns are they? If so then what did Christ mean when He said "why do you call me Lord and not DO what I say?" and "My mother and brothers are those who DO the will of God" or "Its not those who hear my words but those who DO them"? Im paraphrasing of course, but what exactly is the DO that the elect are supposed to be doing?

Also why did Christ say after commisioning them to go out and preach "you will not finish going through all of Israel before the Son of Man comes"? Doesnt that mean that the commisioning to make disciples/preach the gospel would apply to all generations until His return?

Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Kat on February 01, 2014, 02:50:51 AM

Hi Largeli,

Quote
If making disciples, feeding the sheep, preaching the good news, etc. was only for the apostles, then what is it that the elect are supposed to be doing? Surely the elect arent just supposed to hang out and lay low until Christ returns are they? If so then what did Christ mean when He said "why do you call me Lord and not DO what I say?" and "My mother and brothers are those who DO the will of God" or "Its not those who hear my words but those who DO them"? Im paraphrasing of course, but what exactly is the DO that the elect are supposed to be doing?

I did not say that 'only' the Apostles would evangelize, Ray is a good example of somebody who was doing that. But I don't think that it's what every believer needs to do, I think it is a gift given to some, not all.

So what are the rest of believers to be 'doing?' Well Paul said "I die daily." What doesn't that mean and how does it apply to the rest of believers?

Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the flesh you will die (just die physically without receiving spiritual life of the Holy Spirit); but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (spiritually).

Col 3:5  Put to death therefore what is earthly (fleshly) in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (RSV)

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
v. 6  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
v. 7  For he who has died has been freed from sin.
v. 8  Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
v. 9  knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
v. 10  For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
v. 11  Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Quote
Also why did Christ say after commisioning them to go out and preach "you will not finish going through all of Israel before the Son of Man comes"? Doesnt that mean that the commisioning to make disciples/preach the gospel would apply to all generations until His return?

Mat 10:23  When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Well Jesus was giving His disciples a commission/instruction to continue spreading/preaching the gospel, but He said they would not made it through all the cities of Israel until "the Son of Man comes." Did that mean His coming in glory at the end of the age or was He talking about what He was yet to do, as the "Son of Man" had come to do right then in their life times - before they gone through the cities of Israel?

Mat 20:28  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

I think that could have been what Jesus was saying there, that they would not finish going to all the cities before His crucifixion had come and the "Son of Man," was scarified as a ransom for us all.

1Tim 2:5  For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
v. 6  who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. also remember that the things that Jesus said were mostly put in a way to conceal the true meaning, He did not come right out and say things so everybody could understand. 
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: loretta on February 01, 2014, 03:20:56 PM
That was very well put Kat.

Oh yes, I was one happy evangelist when I came out of the Roman church, I could barely be reined in.  What with my preaching/teaching/emails/social media posts/distributing pamphlets, books and bibles, I did it with an arrogance that far superceded that of the Pharisees!  I shudder to think of those days...and what I was teaching.

I am not saying that Ray and others do not have to die daily as well.  But when I truly started to experience this daily dying to self in the lof, believe me, I did not have breathe enough to evangelize.  Most of the time I'm struggling to get out of the lof, leave alone dying, so I'm floundering and flaying, hardly a witness for the good news. :)  But I know that it will be good in the end, perhaps there will be opportunity to evangelize, perhaps I am already evangelizing to people sans a word.  All is of God.  He is sovereign.
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: arion on February 02, 2014, 10:40:58 AM
I did not say that 'only' the Apostles would evangelize, Ray is a good example of somebody who was doing that. But I don't think that it's what every believer needs to do, I think it is a gift given to some, not all.

As we know scripture interprets scripture.  There is a very important key when it comes to witnessing that hardly any in Christendom stop to consider.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This is from the "I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon" rule of thumb.  The multitudes that followed after Christ wanted to hear what he had to say.  And likewise those that followed the apostles wanted to hear what they had to say.  There is little more irritating to have someone come up to you because they feel forced to 'witness' and they aren't even sure themselves what they believe if you corner them, but they sure are going to go around and make a royal pain of themselves whether you want to hear them or not.

As a sidenote I also take it to heart when I read;

Jas 3:1  Not, many teachers, become ye, my brethren, knowing that, a severer sentence, shall ye receive; [rotherham]

There are precious few teachers today which are called of God imo and Ray was one of those men.  I know he took that very seriously and that is one of the reasons why he took so much time and effort with the papers that he wrote.  He knew he would have to account for it one day.  I shudder when I see people going around teaching the heresy they are teaching.  These poor pastors that stand up in the pulpit although sincere, are going to have much to account for in the day of reckoning. 

Because of all this and that I am not a teacher I'm very careful in the things that I 'witness' to others.  I would love opportunities to explain to other Christians why I don't believe in their hell as they are taught along with the other great pearls of wisdom we've learned here.  But it has to be because God himself engenders it and leads the way.  He is fully capable of bringing who He wishes to a knowledge of His truth in His timing.  He brought us all to understand these truths in a unique way through Ray's teachings and through the teachings of few others who are like him. 

I wish their were more teachers who taught God's word in truth and power.  But, if the very elect themselves are few in number in this age the few real teachers are as scarce as hens teeth as I think we can all attest to. 
Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: loretta on February 03, 2014, 06:57:27 AM
Very well put indeed, Arion.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

What then does it mean to sanctify the Lord God in your hearts?  Clearly it means more than inviting Jesus into our hearts, as taught by Christendom.

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. Num 20:12

For ye rebelled against my commandment in the desert of Zin, in the strife of the congregation, to sanctify me at the water before their eyes: that is the water of Meribah in Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.  Num 27:14

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.  Isa 5:16

But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.  Isa 29:23


Title: Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
Post by: Joel on February 03, 2014, 02:23:18 PM
Ray's "Winning souls for Jesus" is the best teaching I know of concerning the subject.
He quotes the scriptures and explains Matthew 5 were Jesus speaks about the salt of the earth, and the light of the world.
Very short and to the point in my opinion.
There has always been true Light, and false light since the beginning, people in the church world are satisfied with the false light until God shines the real light on them and opens up their eyes.
The Apostle Paul was a very good example of that.

Joel