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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: EKnight on October 26, 2008, 12:12:04 PM
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I see the term saints used in the bible hundreds of times. So who/what are the saints that are spoken?
Eileen
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The Catholic church is full of them.
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Hello Eileen,
Here is an excerpt from the Lake of Fire series pt 11:
THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD
The called and chosen were born to be Judges:
"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).
"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).
Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).
GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE
I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.
Ponder this:
Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).
We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).
We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).
God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!
God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).
And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.
"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
The saints are the chosen and faithful who will reign with Christ when He returns to rule his kingdom. Also referred to as His 'elect', they have been ordained from the foundation of the world [Rom 8:29-30] to have this high calling. It is all of God as only He chooses and places the desire in our hearts to strive for this calling. If one is to be of the elect/saints, there is nothing that can prevent this as it is God who is choosing in all his sovereignty.
Hope this helps,
Marques
P.S. LOL musicman :D
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Here are the lyrics Musicman now go practice on your horn
http://www.springsteenlyrics.com/lyrics/w/whenthesaintsgomarchingin.php
beloved
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So the elect?
And the saints will judge angels? What are angels?
Eileen
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I was always under the impression that all believers in Jesus Christ are saints, that it is not some elevated, lofty position that some groups (such as the Catholics) like to bestow upon certain people. Even the elect are not elected on their own "merits", but by the purpose and calling of the Father and all their "good" works are/were authored and performed by Him.
Just my two cents worth, tho I'm sure it's not even worth that to many.
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Benny Hinn must know who the saints are, He addresses them a lot.
:)
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So the elect?
And the saints will judge angels? What are angels?
Eileen
Here's an email from Ray regarding angels:
Hi Ray,
(Matthew 18:10 KJVA) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
I have a question about guardian angels. Does scripture support this concept? What did Jesus mean by "their angels"?
Your brother,
Pat
[Ray Replies]
Dear Pat:
Interesting question!
The phrase "guarding angel" does not appear in Scripture. And, as you probably already know, a much better and more accurate translation for angels is "messengers."
Now then, do messengers "guard" us or anyone? Do they serve other functions a the behest of God?
Yes, they do. Here is a direct statement about just what messengers do:
"But to which of the angels [messengers] said He at any time, Sit on My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool? Are they [messengers] not ALL MINISTERING SPIRITS, sent forth to MINISTER for THEM WHO SHALL BE HEIRS OF SALVATION?"
So we all have "ministering spiritual ministers (angels--messengers) from heaven" performing many things in our behalf.
Notice that Jesus said in Matt. 18:10 that these angels "...always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven." The "face" is used in Scripture as that which is most intimate--the face houses the eyes which are the windows of the soul. The angels of heaven are most attentive to the very sincerest wishes of the Father. Next let's look at an example of just such an one actually performing a task on earth which came from the "face of the Father":
"And there appeared unto him [Zascharias--father of John Baptist] an ANGEL of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense... And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that STAND IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD [in the presence of HIS FACE]; and am SENT [they are MINISTERING spirits] to speak unto thee, and to show you these glad tidings" (Luke 1:11 & 19).
Now Gabriel is of pretty high rank, and as such may not be assigned to any one of us personally, but rather is used for the very most important messages. However, they are all ably trained to do their jobs. None has ever spoken to me directly... yet.
Now just because angels do not speak to us audibly and in plain sight, does not preclude that they do no continue ministering unto us to this very day.
Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
Marques
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Here are all of the words used for Saint
G40 ἅγιος hagios hag'-ee-os
(an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
G53 ἁγνός hagnos hag-nos'
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.
H2623 חסיד châsîyd khaw-seed'
From H2616; properly kind, that is, (religiously) pious (a saint): - godly (man), good, holy (one), merciful, saint, [un-] godly.
H6918 דשׁ קדושׁ qâdôsh qâdôsh kaw-doshe', kaw-doshe'
From H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary: - holy (One), saint.
H6944 קדשׁ qôdesh ko'-desh
From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity: - consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.
H4480 מנּי מנּי מן min minnîy minnêy min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.
If any one has a strong linked to the LXX they could look and see which of the above H (Hebrew) wrods was translated into the greek work Hagos
I think 'saints' is pointing to the called out, not the called...
However those called to Christ are therefore "clean" by the blood of jesus .....but not their feet....they are not following Christ in the Way , they have not died to self, and Christ in not working in them at this time.
If someone could find out the Septuagint with a stongs and what itsays it would be helpful...I need one of these on my Esword...so I can compare how the Jewish religious translated the Hebrew into Greek.
beloved
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I was always under the impression that all believers in Jesus Christ are saints, that it is not some elevated, lofty position that some groups (such as the Catholics) like to bestow upon certain people. Even the elect are not elected on their own "merits", but by the purpose and calling of the Father and all their "good" works are/were authored and performed by Him.
Just my two cents worth, tho I'm sure it's not even worth that to many.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Scarlet,
You are right when stating is is all of God and not some group who chooses to bestow themselves like the Catholics. But the position is without a doubt a lofty position as the saints shall REIGN with Christ upon his return and judge the rest of humanity to bring them into salvation. This is truly a high calling and lofty position:
Phil 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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1 Cor. 1:1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, through God's will, and Sosthenes the brother, 2, unto the assembly of God which is in Corinth, Sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all who call upon the name of our Lord.....
Romans 1:7 ...unto all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints.....
2 Cor. 1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus.....unto the assembly of God which is in Corinth, together with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia;...
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus, through God's will, unto the saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus,...
Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, Servants of Jesus Christ, unto all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with overseers and ministers...
Colossians 1:2 ...unto the holy and faithful brethren in Christ that are in Colosse...
Was Paul just writing to the elect or called out ones? Did he know or did they know who would be the ones who would overcome?
Where in the scriptures you quoted does it say that those are expressly and only the people to be called saints? Truly those who overcome are saints, but does that mean the rest of the assembly are not called saints? Were each and everyone of the assemblies Paul addressed overcomers? When I read those epistles it surely doesn't seem so to me especailly some of the strong admonitions Paul delivered to some of them.
Don't forget the ones who will be reigning with Christ are going to be servants, Christ always emphasized that He came to serve not to be served. Though it will indeed be a privilege to serve under Jesus Christ, and ultimately the Father, I just think we still tend to think of saints in terms of someone to be held in awe. It is true that I will be so honored to meet Paul some day, but still, he was the world's worst sinner by his own estimation before Jesus threw him to the ground.
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I agree that is what is written in the literal, but
those that have eyes to and ears to hear ....read the spiritual
Paul knew that wolves had crept in, he wrote to his audience that was a mix of wheat and tares....to the those enduring they now see Gods plan and know that All will be in all. The ultimate choice of the chosen is Gods. Since His word will not return void
What he wrote is True for both but at different times the two together will then bring in the grape harvest
Of course they will be servants....rule and reign / priests and kings / shepards and counselors/ We will still be following the way of Christ as part of HIS BODY.
This is not what the church today believes. They think they will be living high on the hog, masters of the world and living in golden mansions and in all the luxory of the world...but as the venerable Gump would say " carnal is as carnal does"
beloved
beloved
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Where in the scriptures you quoted does it say that those are expressly and only the people to be called saints? Truly those who overcome are saints, but does that mean the rest of the assembly are not called saints? Were each and everyone of the assemblies Paul addressed overcomers? When I read those epistles it surely doesn't seem so to me especailly some of the strong admonitions Paul delivered to some of them.
Don't forget the ones who will be reigning with Christ are going to be servants, Christ always emphasized that He came to serve not to be served. Though it will indeed be a privilege to serve under Jesus Christ, and ultimately the Father, I just think we still tend to think of saints in terms of someone to be held in awe. It is true that I will be so honored to meet Paul some day, but still, he was the world's worst sinner by his own estimation before Jesus threw him to the ground.
Scarlet, I think there is somewhat of a miscommunication going on. When I stated 'saints' it was in the regard of those who continued in the faith and to be in the 1st resurrection, whoever they are. If those in the congregation that Paul spoke to did not continue in the faith, then they are not saints then, right?
The saints who are to judge to the world is only a high calling because it is God who bestows this glory upon them. Though Paul addressed the whole congregation as saints, as he or no one else had personal knowledge as to who the elect are, this is spoken to them if they continue in the faith.
Hope this clears up any confusion,
Marques
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The Highest Calling of All is to be a servant to the least one of all. This is my understanding of what the Scriptures teach
in that regard. Saints are converted sinners, so we all are becoming Saints since we are all sinners. The Elect are part of
First Fruits (Saints) the Great Harvest are Saved sinners (Saints).
george.
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Bingo George, short and sweet ;D
Beloved
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The Highest Calling of All is to be a servant to the least one of all. This is my understanding of what the Scriptures teach
in that regard. Saints are converted sinners, so we all are becoming Saints since we are all sinners. The Elect are part of
First Fruits (Saints) the Great Harvest are Saved sinners (Saints).
george.
Thanks George...short and sweet indeed. :)
Marques
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Wow,
So Paul only literally called them saints, but didn't mean it. Fine, whatever. In love I consider all believers saints, You can call them whatever you want.
sigh
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Wow,
So Paul only literally called them saints, but didn't mean it. Fine, whatever. In love I consider all believers saints, You can call them whatever you want.
sigh
Why do you insist on implying negative connotations that have no merit? If there was one comment that deserved this slander, please point it out. This is not that complicated:
You are a 'saint' if God has called and chosen you and you remain faithful to the end. If you are not called and chosen and do not endure to the end, you are not.
No one knows who will be faithful and overcome to the very end. But as they are in the faith now, they are called saints. But if they do not endure to the end and turn away from the truth, then they obviously are not saints.
I can understand everyone not understanding everything. That's fine; as we are all striving for the truth. But the over the top attitude is not edifying in the least. Are we really having a blowout over the definition of the word 'saints'? I mean come on, are we really this carnal? It's not that serious...
Marques
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Scarlet Wren you said
So Paul only literally called them saints, but didn't mean it.
In my post I tried to show that it is God that inspired Paul to write...the words that he did. Instead of reading them from Pauls view , perhaps you can try reading them from Gods view...see things as they will be
Marques point that those who do not endure will not be " in that number"
God is really taking to those that will endure .
I think that each of us have to look at ourselves and not at others...the judgements and trials will be ours as individual to endure. In another post they talk about receiving a new name....we cannot focus on that either...we need to focus on today and our own daily growth as Christ works in us.
I love thinking about being a saint, a chosen or elect or bride...., but thinking that I am there already would only be presumptious....God has people in mind since the foundation. I can only stay focused in His word, follow Him and obey..
I hope you are not getting too frustrated, things we see today can be different from the things we see next month when God opens the scriptures for us .
beloved
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ScarletWren,
Sorry i had to leave for a few hours; please do not misunderstand my post below. If there is something that is confusing
there let me know so i can clarify it.
george.
The Highest Calling of All is to be a servant to the least one of all. This is my understanding of what the Scriptures teach
in that regard. Saints are converted sinners, so we all are becoming Saints since we are all sinners. The Elect are part of
First Fruits (Saints) the Great Harvest are Saved sinners (Saints).
george.
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Since we're talking about saints chew on this verse for awhile;
Revelation 13:7-8
And he was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. He was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. 8 All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
I think saints are the called. The chosen/elect come out of this group.
Blessings
tinknocker
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Since we're talking about saints chew on this verse for awhile;
Revelation 13:7-8
And he was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. He was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. 8 All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
I think saints are the called. The chosen/elect come out of this group.
Blessings
tinknocker
"The saints shall judge the world" 1 Cor 6:2
The called are not going to judge the called. Look at the next verse: whose names are NOT WRITTEN from the foundation of the world in the book of the life of the lamb was slaughtered. Obviously, these are those who did not overcome. Nor does Rev 13:7 interpet itself [2 Pet 1:20]
John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Notice, IF they continue in His word, they are disciples. Were they disciples this day that Christ spoke it? Of course, that's why He said 'continue'. You can only 'continue' if you have started. Now, did all these same believing Jews continue? Most likely not, as they all chanted 'Crucify him!' [John 19:15].
All this goes for US now. If we 'continue' in the faith, we are his disciples/saints/elect/etc. If we do not, then NO we are not. How can one be a saint if one does not 'continue' in His Word? But who knows who will finish the race?
2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
We ALL are saints as we abide in Christ and Christ abides in us...but if we do not 'continue' to abide in Christ then no we will not be His disciples/saints/elect and we will perish/destroyed/lost. That is why Paul could address the congregation as 'saints' because the were on the path even with their carnal flaws. But only God knows who will stay the path as it is HE who ordained the chosen in the first place.
Whew... :D
Marques
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To all of you who are interested in this topic, now would be a good time to reread and study the following installment from the Lake of Fire series:
LOF series Pt. 13 WHO IS THE BEAST?
Here is a small excerpt from this paper:
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
René
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Thank you Rene; Ray really makes it simple. :-)
Marques
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Wow,
So Paul only literally called them saints, but didn't mean it. Fine, whatever. In love I consider all believers saints, You can call them whatever you want.
sigh
Why do you insist on implying negative connotations that have no merit? If there was one comment that deserved this slander, please point it out. This is not that complicated:
You are a 'saint' if God has called and chosen you and you remain faithful to the end. If you are not called and chosen and do not endure to the end, you are not.
No one knows who will be faithful and overcome to the very end. But as they are in the faith now, they are called saints. But if they do not endure to the end and turn away from the truth, then they obviously are not saints.
I can understand everyone not understanding everything. That's fine; as we are all striving for the truth. But the over the top attitude is not edifying in the least. Are we really having a blowout over the definition of the word 'saints'? I mean come on, are we really this carnal? It's not that serious...
Marques
Marques point that " If they do not endure to the end and they turn away from the truth, they obviously are not Saints(Holy Ones-Samsons preference from hagioi-gk) hits the nail on the head."
Endurance to the end of ones life is required, the Saints or Holy Ones are chosen
out of the many called, so until one endures to the end, they are only prospective
" Saints" until then.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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I'm still reading, I just guess I'll keep my opinions to myself for the most part. ;D
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Hi SW,
No reason to become an introvert, we are all here because somehow (miraculously) we were shown some
more Light. ScarletWren, please keep asking even if the answer sometimes does not confirm your current
thought. It is only by diligent study and Prayer that we can both learn and then teach The Good News Of
The Gospel when called upon to do so. It would be nice if everyone always used the most understanding
and gentle tone to converse; however we are still all learning to be Just and Saintly (Holy). That comes with
practice and immersion in The Word (Baptism) and learning to Be Like Christ (Circumcision Without Hands).
We will all arrive at that point in our own order; so please do not lose patience or zeal for the Word and
Fellowship with like minded (even if not like in speech and conduct on line) people. Remember the Body Of
Christ is made up of different parts just like any other; the difference is that In Christ Jesus we are Made
Holy.
This is a bit longwinded for me, usually i just find the Scripture to say what needs to be said. Today i was
urged to write to you with application to us all so please do not be silent out of either anger or fear of
challenge to your current understanding.
For By Grace are ye Saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves, It is The Gift Of God; lest any should Boast.
Now for some Scripture:
Proverbs 16:23:
The heart of the wise teaches his mouth, and adds learning to his lips.
Proverbs 9:9:
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
Acts 26:24:
And as he thus spoke for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, you are beside yourself; much learning
does make you mad.
Romans 15:4:
For whatever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort
of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5:
Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be like minded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
II Corinthians 6:4:
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
Love and Patience,
george.
I'm still reading, I just guess I'll keep my opinions to myself for the most part. ;D
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I have looked at the word saint in the scriptures The word Hagios is also used in conjection with the "Holy" Spirit.
I agree that this sentance in Ephesians has a conjunctive "and" but I do not see two groups being addressed but rather one, saints that are aloo faithful....
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by [the] will of God, to the holy ones [or, saints, and throughout epistle], the [ones] being in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus:
I see what Ray has written but is it possible that many of the church fathers in babylon saw themselves as saints and translated it that way. We are reading translations... :-\
The called and the chosen have both been called to Jesus, but I do not see how those in babylon can be called "holy" , except by their being called.
I was able to find a LXX with greek strongs and see that saints was used for holy in some places and this was translated saints, but in other places where saints is translated in the OT, the other words are used that I defined in my above.
It is going to take me time to put this together, There are a lot of verses to pull and compare. I want to see some witnessing scripure on this word.
I often find that terms and words are bandied in this world about without concern for a tight definition. I also believe that language in itself causes words to have multiple meanings.
I often find double entendre in scriture now, where the words are there but the person reading them sees something that is not intended. Here at BT we are all aware of things that Ray has shown us like....all, eternity forever and ever....but I think there may be more.
Look whate a little comma and belief in heaven when you die, does to the understanding of this verse
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luk 23:43 "I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Positively, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him-Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.
beloved
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George,
I hope Scarletwren appreciates your sincerity. I know I do.
Very well said George.
Eileen
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Beloved,
This has been my biggest contention, words mean things so definition of words is of extreme
importance when speaking or translating. Especially when we read that in the latter times
even the meaning of words will be changed to deceive the world.
Yes there is Scripture to back this up but i have to wait until i get home to search it out or
let the fun begin and my Sisters and Brothers can go to work now.
george.
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On a lighter note The Day after halloween is ALL Saints Day November 1st
ALL Saints day...it is a babylonean feast that was set up by early roman church.
I found this interesting of what people think a saint is:
In Roman Catholicism, a person of great spirituality who has died, is responsible for at least three miracles, and who has been elevated to the sainthood by the church.
In Protestantism, a saint is one of the ancient leaders of the church, like St. Peter and St. Paul.
In Evangelical Christianity, all saved Christians are saints
Three 'stupid' definitions...since none are saved but are being saved
...is Saint a collective term for those being saved....then that would have to include the unbelievers too. Hagios...Hagios from hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Somehow I think that paul was using it with different meaning in mind...but then again from God's perspective this too could be true. ;D
beloved
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Oh when the saints go marching in
When the saints go marching in
Oh lord I want to be in that number
When the saints go marching in
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Fester,
I have never yet seen a marching pancake; does it roll or shuffle on the march ???.
Yes when the Saints go marching in, the real job that we are training for starts ;D.
george.
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1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1. Already "sanctified in Christ".
2. "Corinth" - a carnal church
3. "Called to be saints" - Equality to be a saint - either your one or your not ................not of who is holier or sees more truth or earns it.
4. "all that in every place" - note inclusion not EXCLUSION
4. ALL those [regardless] "THAT CALL the name Jesus Christ our Lord"
5. "both theirs and ours"
Exclusion or inclusion? Saints that are called and qualified by man made denominations are of a party spirit.
digitalwise
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Digitalwise....Ray always says "look at the words" and when I read your post at first glance I read the verse and then a second time the "church of God" stood out to me. This is referring to the believers of the truth and not the temples and synagogues.....so unto those that are believers in the truth (that God will save all) they are called saints, both CLNT and YNG translations leave out "to be"....they are just called.....few are called, many are chosen.
Your translation: 1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Concordant Literal New Testament 1 Cor 1:2 "to the ecclesia of God which is in Corinth, hallowed in Christ Jesus, called saints, together with all in every place who are invoking the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:"
Young's Literal translation: "to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours:"
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Dear Heidi
Church of God is a GENERIC term for an assembly of people in Christ's name - that is all.
Look at the co-concordant translation:
Assembly is a description of many meeting together not a qualification in being a saint.
hallowed [sanctified] in Christ Jesus, called saints, together with all in every place who are invoking the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:"
It is noted that Armstrongism [of that movement I was once a part] - described the Church of God as their only name.
What is then a legitimate Assembly of God then?
I would have thought those CALLING or invoking the Name of Jesus along with this reference of OTHER assemblies are believers hence saints.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The concordant seems to say more emphatic that we are saints ALREADY provided the condition of Christ's santification - past tense is met as the condition. - to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints,
Who then are beloved of God?
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do we have to be in Rome to be beloved of God or called saints?
Likewise the church or "ecclesia of God" phrase - the qualification to a saint is not on the phrase "church" but rather the action of Christ's grace on the individual believer - that is the real determinate of whether you are a saint or not. Thus sanctified by the Christ is real cause in being a saint not the assembly.
digitalwise
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2 Great bible studies by Ray:
'How hard is Getting Saved' [http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html)]
and
'Can We lose God's spirit and Eonian life' [http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html)]
I think can give further insight on this issue. Remember, 'The sum of thy Word is true' Ps 119:160 CLV. Here's a great analogy from Ray's March 2008 bible study:
What good does it do when a police officer stops you for speeding and you start outlining to him all the time, that you didn’t speed? You say, ‘officer I drove this road yesterday twice and I did not speed. I took my wife to the doctor and I did not speed. I went down town and I didn’t speed. I went out on the highway and went over to Pensacola and I didn’t speed.’ I mean how much weight is that going to carry?
The officer says, ‘ but now you are speeding. That’s good that you didn’t speed then, but that will not allow you to start speeding now.’
How simple is that. Can a child understand that? If you punish a child because he was bad and he says, ‘but mommy I was good yesterday and I was good the day before.’ She says, ‘well that’s good, that’s admiral, but you’ve got to be good today too.’ How simple is that.
Well a lot of these people can’t understand it. I’m not poking fun at them, I mean they sincerely can’t, because no one has ever taught them these things.
Hope this helps those who need more understanding,
Marques
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Do we have to be in Rome to be beloved of God or called saints?
Likewise the church or "ecclesia of God" phrase - the qualification to a saint is not on the phrase "church" but rather the action of Christ's grace on the individual believer - that is the real determinate of whether you are a saint or not. Thus sanctified by the Christ is real cause in being a saint not the assembly.
digitalwise
Exactly!!
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Truly those who overcome are saints, but does that mean the rest of the assembly are not called saints?
Hello,
I don't mean to single out Scarlet, but I wanted to really get to the heart of the matter regarding this subject. I work in IT so it's kind of my nature to get to the root of an issue.
This is why earlier I referenced Ray's bible study on 'Can We lose God's spirit and Eonian life'. The first half of Scarlet's statement is absolutely true. Those who overcome are the elect/saints/disciples/'him who overcomes'/etc. They shall, with Christ, judge the world [1 Cor. 6:2]
The second half, the question of are the rest of the assembly called saints, is if they do not overcome, then NO they are not saints. At the time of Paul's letter, these believers were abiding in the truth as most members of this forum are. But we all as well as those in Paul's time, has to endure to the end. If we or any of those back then fell away, then we are no longer saints and only judgment awaits us at the resurrection.
So yes, YOU CAN LOSE God's spirit and eonian life. But only God knows that are His and rarely will you even know if one has fallen away from the truth unless they blatantly speak heresy and contradictions.
Again, look at the words of our Lord and Saviour:
John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
These Jews, who believed, were 'His disciples indeed' IF they continued. At the moment Christ made this statement, these Jews were His disciples. But they had to continue! Were they disciples when they were yelling with the crowd, 'Crucify him!' [John 19:15]. Of course not...that's why 'the SUM of thy Word is true'.
Then said Jesus to those Jews [We are now Jews (Rom. 2:29)] which believed on Him [do we not all believe?], IF ye continue in my Word [it's a process, see?] THEN are ye my disciples [disciples/elect/saints/'him who overcomes'/etc.]indeed;
We are all on the path, like the congregations that Paul spoke to, but we must continue. The 'many are called' are NOT ON THE PATH. They have chosen the road to destruction. [Matt. 7:13]
Marques
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This topic has run it's course, which is why I am locking it.
Thanks.
René