=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Oatmeal on March 18, 2010, 09:56:28 PM

Title: Saved by Doing Nothing
Post by: Oatmeal on March 18, 2010, 09:56:28 PM
My apologies for asking another elementary question.

For those who say that we are saved by faith alone (literally faith NOT working through works - just "faith") which is not a saving faith acording to James - how does one reply when the following two verses are quoted?

Titus 3:4-7
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:8-11
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Thanks for your help again

Title: Re: Saved by Doing Nothing
Post by: mharrell08 on March 18, 2010, 10:06:34 PM
My apologies for asking another elementary question.

For those who say that we are saved by faith alone (literally faith NOT working through works - just "faith")

Who says this? I know Ray specifically taught on this subject in a June 2007 bible study, 'Do James and Paul contradict?' (,9742.0.html).

No where do the scriptures say we are saved by faith 'alone'.

Excerpt from bible study referenced above:


This faith alone… the word alone, this is something that has been interjected at the time of Martin Luther and I’m going to show you that it was him that did it.   I just looked up a few, but I mean there are hundreds.  So I just looked up this few.

Joe Tkach in the Worldwide Church of God, because most of us came out of there. Tkach says, now that he’s following in the ranks of Hank Handegraph and all of those heretic, he says "we are saved by faith ALONE, without resort to works of ANY KIND."

James Dobson says, "we are justified by faith ALONE."  Where did he get that word alone.

Billy Graham, "faith ALONE."  Now I believe it was Billy Graham, I don’t know how many years ago when he had one of his really big or first rallies in Berlin, he was sure to emphasize that we are justified by faith ALONE.  Why did he do that?  Well he wanted to get in good with the Germany, because it was their great reformer Martin Luther who introduced this word alone.

Listen to this, I’m going to read this now about the same way that theologians would try to.  How Billy Graham and Dobson and Tkach would try to show you how they are right on this ‘faith ALONE.’  They might quote Paul in Galatians 2.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law…

Well there you go.

Paul says:
Gal 2:16  …but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.  (also 17-21!!)

Now that is pretty clear, isn’t it.  I mean it sounds pretty clear, doesn’t it.  Will anybody be justified in the eyes of God by doing works of the law?  Paul say no.

James says:
James 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works...

v. 24  Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFED...

Is that a contradiction?  It sure sounds like one if you read it like that, doesn’t it.  One place says, not by works but by faith in Christ and then not by works of the law.  Then James comes along and says was not Abraham justified by works, you see then that a man if justified by works.

Okay, it’s not a contradiction.  Now follow me closely.  I so help me God think the worse offenders of Christian hermeneutics are the Christian theologians.  They are the worse.  They say that difficult Scriptures must be interpreted by simpler, more to the point Scriptures.  They’ve got all these principles and context context context.  Yet when they try to ensconce their heretical teaching, they break every rule in the book and they do it with impunity.

We started off with this word ‘alone.’  We are justified, saved by faith alone.  Justification is by faith alone.  Faith alone. 

I read you two verses, one by Paul and one by James.  Did you see the word ‘alone’? It’s not there.  Well where in the world did it come from?  I’ll show you.   


This I have is a very old translation of the Bible by Martin Luther, from back in the 1500’s.  Now I’ll take you to Romans 3:28.  In says in there;

Roemer 3:28 German: Luther (1545)
So halten wir es nun, daß der Mensch gerecht werde ohne des Gesetzes Werke, allein durch den Glauben.

“Allein” means alone.  “Glauden” means belief or faith.  That’s Martin Luther’s from the 1500’s.

Now let’s read that from the King James.

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (or works) of the law.

Do you see the word ‘alone.’  No.  No you don’t.  It’s interesting that Martin Luther puts little margin notes.  He puts them actually not in the margin, but he puts them right next to the verses.  He has Galatians 2:16.  Maybe it is just to help people see another reference.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ…

Now it doesn’t say ‘alone’ does it.  But he uses that as a reference.  But in Romans 3:28 he puts the word ‘alone.’

Biased Bible Translation

Martin Luther translated the New Testament into German. He translated Romans 3:28 as follows:
We hold that the human will be justified without the works of the law but only by faith.

[Ray’s comment: They give the King James text and show that it is not there]

Luther admits to adding the word "only" in the text but insists that his reasons for doing so are good ones. [Ray’s comment:  Isn’t this incredible.]  Notice that he is using his doctrine of Sola Fide (faith only) to guide his translation rather than being faithful to the text. Here are his words:

I was not depending upon or following the nature of language when I inserted the word "solum" (alone) in Rom. 3 as the text itself, and St. Paul's meaning, urgently necessitated and demanded it. He is dealing with the main point of Christian doctrine in this passage - namely that we are justified by faith in Christ without any works of the Law.

I also know that in Rom. 3, the word "solum" is not present in either Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these knotheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text[/u] - if the translation is to be clear and accurate, it belongs there.

So why did he put ‘alone’ there?… “It belongs there.”  Why anybody can tell that, right,  because it belongs there.  Now he didn’t put it in Galatians 2:16, but guess who did?  Now I will extol the virtues of the Concordance’s translation when that is deemed fair, but let me show you something.  This is the reference that Martin Luther gives in his Scripture Romans 3:28, when he says ‘alone.’

Concordant Literal Version
Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus,

That is just sheer spurious nonsense.  They do show you, they always put the words from the Scripture in bold face and if they add words… and sometimes you need to add words to make it idiomatically correct, you know in reading it.  They do put the word ‘alone’ in light face.  But the point is, why did they put it there at all?  It is not suggested and it is not in the original, so why did they put it there?  Well A. E. Knoch… is that not a good German name.  I think he’s got a heritage back to Martin Luther if you ask me.  Where else did he come up with that?  It’s not there, he just stuck it in there.  Martin Luther just stuck it in there.  Where did this ‘alone’ come from?   It didn’t come from the Scriptures.

So although what I read you, and I didn’t read you the whole verse, I just read an excerpt from a verse from Paul and in James.  I did that on purpose, so you could see how you could make it sound like it’s a absolute contradiction.  You see?

So there is no Scripture that uses the phrase ‘faith alone’ or ‘only by faith’ or ‘faith only.’  Or ‘works alone’ or ‘only works.’  Neither one of those is used, you don’t find the word alone.  Now you will find ‘faith alone’ one place in the Bible and it is in James.  But guess what you find with that “faith alone”?  You find the word “not.” 

James 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Hope this helps,

Title: Re: Saved by Doing Nothing
Post by: Joel on March 18, 2010, 11:08:53 PM
Is it safe to say that GOD gives the FAITH, and WORKS the WORKS in and through us?
In Hebrews 11, it talks about all the FAITH, but underlying all
the FAITH is GOD doing the WORKS. Or should we believe the WORKS are something we think up, and act out at our own will?

Title: Re: Saved by Doing Nothing
Post by: Kat on March 19, 2010, 01:05:48 AM

Hi Joel,

Here is another excerpt from the Bible study Marques referred to.,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 ---


In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone)…

Is that what it says?  That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says.  That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think.  That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe.  No!

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)... 

Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith.  That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God.   But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’

v. 8  For by grace are ye saved through faith…

‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.     

v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9  Not of works…

Here it is, here we get to bring it on down.  It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH.  But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace.  That’s how you're saved, not by your works.  Not by works, because that is something you do.  This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God.  It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you.  That’s what is going to save you, not your own works.  Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you.  That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast. 

v. 9  …lest any man should boast.

Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’  It’s not of works.  Now get the context here.  Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence.  This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.

v. 10  For we are HIS workmanship…

Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it.  No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words. 

From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you.  Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship… 

What kind of workmanship?

v. 10  …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…

Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation?  Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind.  It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith.  It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace.  It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you.  Do you see it?  It’s God’s works in you.

v. 10  …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is ordained, it’s got to be.  This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’  No, this is essential.  Do you see how he brings faith and works together?  They are both essential, they just come from God.

But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense.  if you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’  It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.

mercy, peace and love

Title: Re: Saved by Doing Nothing
Post by: aqrinc on March 19, 2010, 03:57:45 AM
Titus 3:4-7
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


The answer is right there, look at the excerpt from your Scripture quotes, and the description below for Grace. Note that being Justified (action to render is doing something) by His Grace (Devine Influence On our heart/mind) through Faith. Every bit of that is From God to us ward, we come empty handed to the feast.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

Merriman-webster online transitive verb
 1 a : to melt down <render suet>; also : to extract by melting <render lard> b : to treat so as to convert into industrial fats and oils or fertilizer
2 a : to transmit to another : deliver b : give up, yield c : to furnish for consideration, approval, or information: as (1) : to hand down (a legal judgment) (2) : to agree on and report (a verdict)
3 a : to give in return or retribution b (1) : give back, restore (2) : reflect, echo c : to give in acknowledgment of dependence or obligation : pay d : to do (a service) for another
4 a (1) : to cause to be or become : make <enough rainfall…to render irrigation unnecessary — P. E. James> <rendered him helpless> (2) : impart b (1) : to reproduce or represent by artistic or verbal means : depict (2) : to give a performance of (3) : to produce a copy or version of <the documents are rendered in the original French> (4) : to execute the motions of <render a salute> c : translate
5 : to direct the execution of : administer <render justice>
6 : to apply a coat of plaster or cement directly to

From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Merriman-Webster Online Dictionary
Main Entry: 1grace
Pronunciation: \ˈgrās\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin gratia favor, charm, thanks, from gratus pleasing, grateful; akin to Sanskrit gṛṇāti he praises
Date: 12th century
1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2 a : approval, favor <stayed in his good graces> b archaic : mercy, pardon c : a special favor : privilege <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage — Rudyard Kipling> d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption : reprieve

george ;D.

Title: Re: Saved by Doing Nothing
Post by: Joel on March 19, 2010, 04:52:55 AM
Thanks Kat,
Ray nails it all down there, makes perfect sense to me.