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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Ninny on November 22, 2008, 12:41:31 AM
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I was just reading Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes I was just thinking how Jesus was so adamant about exposing the motives of the leaders. This isn't really a deep thought just an observation really. The church I belonged to for so many years was overseen by a large conference of leaders. It was like a government in itself. Really it was run like a government. I guess all large denominations are run like that. In the church I was in when we got the annual financial statement the local church in addition to all the money they sent to the "church government" they sent 10% of everything it took in in tithes and general offerings as a tithe! I guess this was so the congregation would see the example and pay their tithes.
Then of course we had to have bake sales and what not to raise money for programs for the children! With all the money sent in to the "mother church" I never understood why they didn't have money for local church items even like Bible study materials. I can understand why Jesus rebuked them in NOT a pleasant tone! This is just a waste and to me it is cheating little old ladies out of their social security!
They should have been saying "All little old ladies on social security are exempt from paying tithes." I wonder how many of the elderly folks may have gone without things they really needed to be "obedient" to God.
Strange!
My thoughts,
Kathy :)
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I am not sure what point you are trying to make
The church is basically collecting tithes as you point out for the accumulation of wealth, they do not take care of the needy as directed by Christ.
However the elderly who pay tithes are not exempt either....they give tithes in order to obtain righteousness through works OR perhaps they buy into the name it claim it doctrine ...where they are promised to get 100 fold return on their investment....they are not necessarily being obedient by paying tithes.
If you look in the Gospels at the difference that Jesus points out.
(Mar 12:38) And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
(Mar 12:39) And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
(Mar 12:40) Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.
(just like today living high on the hog doing just what you pointed out )but will be held accountable for their actions
(Mar 12:41) And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
(Mar 12:42) And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
(Mar 12:43) And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
(Mar 12:44) For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
She did not cast in 10% she threw it all in....declaring that she was totally dependent on God
Even if these people did think they were being obedient...they gave their money to the church and they got their carnal return.
They do not need to buy any special BIBLE STUDY material....a bible and perhaps some paper would do. (Jesus and His disciples never said we needed any ) AS far as the Bible goes, it would help if when they opened it they were able to actually read it and understand it.
The church likes it hierarchy....it like all government..... is based on power....it is the power that leads to the wealth :P
Beloved
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You are correct again, Beloved! You are always right :D :D :D
Naw, I wasn't really making much of a point just an observation I guess. I never thought of the people paying their tithes to get their financial return! I used to pay tithes because I really thought I was being obedient to God. I just thought that's what you're supposed to do! I honestly don't remember ever thinking that if I paid my tithe God would give it back to me! If I thought that way I never saw the check in the mail! Ha!
It has only been in the last three years or so since I started coming to BT that I learned the tithe is unscriptural!
I have never liked "Bible study materials" anyway-BORING!! :P
Now I do believe in giving- like you mentioned the widow who gave all, yes she knew that God was taking care of her. Live or die it was God's anyway! God is all and over all and it is He who takes care of us! I don't see anything wrong in setting aside a tithe of your income to have it available to help those in need. I know someone who does that ,but they don't tell what they do or when, they just do it. I know about it because it's a member of my family and when they wanted to do that they asked my advice about it. I said, "That's between you and God." I gave them Ray's paper on tithing and they agreed that's what they would do.
Thanks again for wisdom from scripture,
Kathy :)
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yes many will accept the No tithing paper that Ray presents, People like getting out of Hell and having more money in their pockets....
Do you see these two beliefs accepted on the surface...still can be idols of the heart .......because they can be self serving. They are only the entree of the meal....there is a lot to eat and chew on.
Ha ha...I am not always right...I was just coming from another perspective...we all contribute when we study the Word.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
The problem is that we have to remember freedom from Tithes does not mean freedom from Giving to God....we are only lowly steward who have been given the job of taking care of "some of HIS possessions" Are we being GOOD Stewards...really representing our Master....are we acting in accord to HIS Will.
We are fed by this site, but do we support it with funds or with words , we see people in need...but do we serve them in the Name of our Master.... Do we invoke His name in our prayers but fail to use the resources that he has provided that might help the person in need under certain occasions?
This is where "the tire hits the road" and the wolves in sheep clothing get squeamish....we do not want to be that widow with the two mites. I know that I am way too often the
(Mar 12:41) And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
(Luk 21:4) For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Remember the parable of the three stewards, each wer given ten talents....the most sucessful did not hold on to the ten but gave a little here and a little there ........and the fruit of giving.... returned to His Master...not to him.
Boy is this speaking to me today
Beloved
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Hi Kathy, Beloved,
Here is a short testimony from my (purely carnal past). This is what most others still contend with.
The great deceiver has a few tricks up his sleeve too. I used to pay because i thought that was the way the
system worked from GOD. When i stopped paying several times it seemed that money stopped coming in and
my work would not prosper. Naturally i started paying again and things would seem to settle down and go well.
This was a cycle that had me really confused for years and believing the system was designed that way. The
reason i say Satan has his own tricks is that it really appears to be a reward system that is scriptural if one is
only able to understand carnal things. Eg: give - receive, sow - reap, seed - fruit and on and on. The cunningly
devised fables of man and Satan are indeed a powerful attraction for the carnal (physical) mind.
In That Day; when we see the breathless evil and cunning of the deception we call progress (while we were
still carnal) is when we cry out to GOD to rescue us from the body of this death.
Reading and listening to: how hard is getting saved smacks all that deception and cunning into the dust.
george.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
How Hard is Getting Saved?
by L. Ray Smith
Bible Truths Conference
Nashville TN 2005
Who gave me this newspaper…The Tennesian—the article is called “The Scripture has the Last Say on Who is and Who isn’t a Christian.” By Betty Joe King.
She says, “There’s an awful lot of talk around media, politicians, and anybody else who can draw a public audience, about what a Christian is, what a Christian believes, and what a Christian does.”
I’m just going to hit a couple of the high points. I’m not going to read the whole thing.
“A Christian is a person who believes and accepts the authority of the bible.” (King)
True or False. There are all kinds of “bibles”. Bible is a translation of scriptures that could be a fairly good translation or a very bad one.
“God wrote the Bible…” (King)
See, these are misconceptions…God didn’t “write” the bible. God INSPIRED the writing of the Holy Scriptures. (which were not written in archaic English, Japanese, Chinese, or Mongolian) Any foreign language that the Scriptures are translated in are BIBLES: God did not write the Bible….this is total heresy.
“Just for the record, let me lay out for you just what a true Christian is or believes: 1)Man was created in the image of God” (King)
If you believe how it’s worded in the King James, that God created man (past tense), in the image of God, you will NEVER EVER understand the scriptures. If you don’t understand Genesis 1:26, you will never understand the scriptures because that verse tells us why God made humanity; and if you don’t know why He created humanity, how will you ever know what this is all about? And here’s a typical Christian. Now, you know we’re not talking just disparagingly about Christians who believe these things, I believed them! We’ve all been deceived. And we know they are deceived. We love them. But this is heresy. I’ll talk a little bit about that.
“If Adam and Eve had not sinned, there would be no such thing as death.” (King)
See, what they think is, God created first of all a great Archangel, one of his most spectacular creatures of all. Right? And the whole thing went belly-up! Bad idea…He gave it His best shot, but it didn’t work. Well, He was a novice. This was His first attempt at something really big like this. And it just didn’t turn out. His own creation turned against Him. He says then, “well, let me try something different. We tried the spirit beings, let’s try the physical beings.” So He made Adam and Eve. Made them perfect.
I just flipped on (the tv) for a couple of minutes, while I was having my coffee two days ago and Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland were together. And Kenneth was saying how when God made Adam, you couldn’t even see him; he was so radiant and beautiful, so absolutely glorified, you couldn’t even see he had a body. He was so glorious.
But God screwed up again, see, He gave him this thing called “free will” and boy, that went bunkers. Now God is trying for six thousand years to get us back as good as we were when the whole thing failed!! Is that not basic teaching? We want to get back to as good as it was?? When it FAILED? If we truly have free will, at what point in eternity do we lose it that we don’t do the same thing all over again: turn against God. Do people think about this stuff in Christianity? NEVER, never ever do they think about this.
It doesn’t say, “so God CREATED man”. The word is CREATING. And the words are, “Creating is God humanity.” That’s a difference “He created man,” than “Creating is God humanity.” It’s a process, it’s still going on. If Adam was the best God could offer, it wasn’t very good because it failed.
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Amen to you Beloved and to you, George! Wow! We have SO much to learn about God! I think learning some things about ourselves helps us in our understanding of how God operates. When we see our motives for what we do and can painfully look at ourselves then looking at God's mercy, whew! We see our most noble deeds are mostly not so noble at all!
I read and listened to 'how hard is getting saved' and you know, Ray just doesn't pull any punches does he?!
A person can give all the reasons they want to thinking they can interpret God's word any way they want to to make people think the way they do! it is amazing how when you look at all the words like Ray says you see a different picture of God altogether!
I am in agreement with you Beloved, giving is important to God not because HE needs anything we have with the exception of obedience, but because the condition of our heart tells our relationship with Him. And like I said before everything is God's to begin with! He just wants to see how we take care of what is His!
Thanks :D
Love you guys,
Kathy
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Hello, It is sad that many are deceived. But, while I was in church I gave with my heart. My husband and I have never had alot of money. I never gave to get money back. I believe we should never think all are doing that. That would pass judgement and make us no better then the false teachers. But, we found out when the Pastor had ran off a young couple for only giving $5.00 dollars a week , and he preached he did not know what anyone gave. Then, after two weeks back after a long illness that I had. He preached a sermon that he did not know what anyone gave. He preached the sermon about the couple who lied to the Holy Spirit. He took the exact amount my husband and I gave. Then he said, "Am I Saying He Might Let You Die" Well! Last, time my Husband and My Mother and I ever went back. We have never been rich use to living with a very small savings and living from check to check. My health has caused many debts in our life. But, God has always taken care of our needs.
But, to say that all in churches give with the heart of only receiving is judgemental and I will never judge them I gave with my heart. Also, now that I know there is no Hell, I am able to obey cause he does it in me. I didn't want to disobey all the time . I had sin in me. I tried to take care of it myself. Now, I know only he can. I Love him now and not just fear him. I Love him in Truth and don't want to hurt him. That is what Love is about we don't like to hurt others. Love is the answer to all problems in the world. I know Babylon Churches have its problems, but not all have been led to the truth yet. I was in Babylon churches and gave with my heart. How can we judge there hearts? I thought god was there judge? There are old people like my mother who gave with her heart. She did not expect to get money back. Babylon's churches have many deceived with good hearts and who obey god. I mean did't we all come out. Its not there faults there deceived is it?
In His Love,
Marlene
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Marlene I do not think that was judging anyone with my statement, I just gave two reasons (out of many as to why)
However the elderly who pay tithes are not exempt either....they give tithes in order to obtain righteousness through works OR perhaps they buy into the name it claim it doctrine ...where they are promised to get 100 fold return on their investment....they are not necessarily being obedient by paying tithes
We were all in Babylon and gave money...but the last part of my statement holds ....They are not necessarily being obedient by paying tithes.
I do not care how anyone rationalizes 'what' they did...they were not following Christ they were following a blind guide...who who handed over their authority to interpret scriptures for them. The fact that they were blind does not mean they were innocent..
This is a time for repentance for All that we do, we need to study to show ourselves approved and grow up spiritually. Too many here even on this board are still stuck in the carnal. We need to carefully examine EVERY THING we did and now do. We need to look critically at ourselves... (I am included in this we group too)
We are not here for Babylon bashing...we were all there...I do not care who you are.......Ask yourself.....If you give with a heart that was not pure....then what have you given?
There is only one WAY, and Babylon false doctrines wasn't even close to the narrow path that God set forth.
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. .
It is about "fault"...just being a nice person has nothing to do with it. You can act nice and still resent a lot of things that God does and who knows what else is going on inside a person..., we cannot judge the heart by outward appearances...but God knows His Sheep.
This is not criticism of any person, it is simply facing the truth about the behavior of mankind and not making excuses or defending it..
beloved
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Babylon's churches have many deceived with good hearts and who obey god.
Matters of the heart:
Deut 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Having a 'good heart' is a Babylonian myth...may seem harsh but true.
Marques
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Beloved, All, I am saying is while there I gave money to people who did not have anything. For, a long time I handled a program for the needy. I saw they got baskets of food if they were poor or in need. But, when I gave I gave with my heart. Now, is it that God could not see inside my heart. Because, I belonged to a church I did nothing right in his eyes. I mean we are all sinners and I could not have done even this right, if not for him.
I don't have a longing to go back. I know they don't teach right. I know they are deceived. But, God judges them for what they know. He shows them what they did not know.
But, now I know truth I believe I will be held more accountable because I do know truth. But, I was merely stating that while in Babylon I began to question things for a long time before finding truth. I never expressed them things, because I was sure the Pastor where I was going would eat me alive.
Well, I was reading some things and he told me not to delve into them. But, I did Praise God I listened to God and not him.
I am just saying we are held more accountable because we know. I even say some ministers have been led by other ministers. The all follow each other and lead otheres and all wind up in the ditch. I was merely trying to say that God could still lead people out like us. I believe God was changing my heart and others like us while in there. But, we know not all will leave. He chooses a few. Even, called out one could go back in, if not for God. I hate the tithe and I hate Hell teachings. We know what they teach, but Father Forgive Them They Know Not What They Do...But, we the called out know the truth and we are called to a high calling. Without, God showing us and teaching us truth we might well be them. I don't say not to expose them. But, even God will
be showing them mercy and he judges and correct by what truth they have. As, a whole it doesnt look good, but we never know out of the whole he is calling out. I don't say quit showing it for what it is, but there are many people doing with there heart. I am like David I prefer gods judgement over man. Yes, they do teach Hell and they don't make God out to be a fair judge. But, I also, know God is using Babylon for his purposes..
I am sorry if it seemed I singled you out. I just feel like we should have compassion for the ones who mean well in there heart and our blind just as Christ does. I do not mean we have to associate with them.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Marques, You and I know that they are lost. Some of them don't know. We were once them. Unless, God calls them out they will not learn truth. Do you feel that while in Babylon you never saw him do a good think in your heart. I know, that since I have been a child I have wanted to please him, but have I always no. I am a sinner and he is still killing that beast in me. Even, he is going to have compassion on them who are blind. Now, us called out ones are held more accountable. That, for me is a fearful thought, this is why Paul was working out his salvation in fear and trembling. Cause, it does depend on God.He chooses. If, not we all would be blind. Now, I fear and tremble not about Hell, but because he has showed me truth and I fear because I love in spirit and truth and I would only be able to do this because he enables me. Those scriptures don't mean anything to the loss they are blind. But, he has compassion. All, I can say if before I came out I gave money if I saw someone in need. I also, never had money to give 10 percent nor did I think that NT scriptures taught that. But, this was my thinking before I found Rays website. Who, gave me this truth. I know God did. He has taught me many things over my 54 years of life. I am just saying we all came from there. They are blind. I do not say go back. That would be crazy. But, I do say if not for God we might go back. We are in a race. I just pray like crazy to god to let me finish. Sorry, if I sounded like I condone sin. But, if you don't know truth how can you know you are doing sin.
In His Love
Marlene
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Marques, You and I know that they are lost. Some of them don't know. We were once them. Unless, God calls them out they will not learn truth. Do you feel that while in Babylon you never saw him do a good think in your heart. I know, that since I have been a child I have wanted to please him, but have I always no. I am a sinner and he is still killing that beast in me. Even, he is going to have compassion on them who are blind. Now, us called out ones are held more accountable. That, for me is a fearful thought, this is why Paul was working out his salvation in fear and trembling. Cause, it does depend on God.He chooses. If, not we all would be blind. Now, I fear and tremble not about Hell, but because he has showed me truth and I fear because I love in spirit and truth and I would only be able to do this because he enables me. Those scriptures don't mean anything to the loss they are blind. But, he has compassion. All, I can say if before I came out I gave money if I saw someone in need. I also, never had money to give 10 percent nor did I think that NT scriptures taught that. But, this was my thinking before I found Rays website. Who, gave me this truth. I know God did. He has taught me many things over my 54 years of life. I am just saying we all came from there. They are blind. I do not say go back. That would be crazy. But, I do say if not for God we might go back. We are in a race. I just pray like crazy to god to let me finish. Sorry, if I sounded like I condone sin. But, if you don't know truth how can you know you are doing sin.
In His Love
Marlene
Hello Marlene,
Those who are blinded still have a wicked heart as the Lord created them as such.
Rom 8:20 For the creature [all of humanity] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
You kinda went off subject with the rest of your comments. The only thing I was commenting on was the phrase 'good heart'.
Thanks,
Marques
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As my earlier post was saying, i am one that was lost and thought i was learning righteousness
by giving even though i expected to recieve back. (AKA sow and reap physically) All start out
lost, some have been caught and dragged back, is that any praise or glory to us ???. I do now
understand that judging another harshly because they have not yet been convicted is the wrong
thing to do.
george.
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You know one thing I've learned in my life is that love covers a multitude of sins and there is not enough love to be found anywhere around! I pray that God will give me a pure heart. I know that none of us is good and none of our hearts are "good" but I really want God to take out my evil heart of unbelief and replace it with a heart that yearns for Him and yearns to be pure.
God knows all the motives of our heart and from what heart we give or withhold. We make mistakes and do terrible things, but if we repent of the evil, God forgives. I pray for anyone still in churches out there that are "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"(Matt. 15:9) that God would drag all his people out of there, kicking and screaming if need be, but get them out! And the ones that refuse to go? God will be the Judge.
Kathy :)
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Kathy.
I can hardly wait for the resurrection to happen and believe me I won’t be screaming or kicking when my turn comes, I’ll go there with pleasure even if it’s into the lake of fire. ;)
I think we should have an in depth discussion on the lake of fire because most of humanity is going that way anyways, It appears to be the way God wants it to be. ???
I wonder if Kentucky fried chicken will be available for those in the lake of fire? I guess one needs to have some humor along the way. ;D
I think you should have named your thread Church Deceivers rather than Church Leaders. :-X
Your friend and brother in the Lord. Richard.
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So, since I was a church member and I was feeling tithe was wrong and I prayed to God in my closet and wanted to obey him , that makes me wicked to the core. Just pray tell me what do I have to do to become good. I thought Jesus said, no man is good, Only his Father is good. Also, I thought we were all subject with vanity. The way I see it no one should boast. I for one won't judge any of there hearts. I think just because I found truth does not make me any better.
I do believe when you have truth you will be held more acountable. Now, God is a fair judge will he hold the blind more accountable, if he chooses who knows truth and who doesn't. Obviously maybe we should talk more about the Second, Lake of Fire. I know Ray does not even think he is chosen. Its all up to God so who knows who it will be.
In His Love,
Marlene
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So, since I was a church member and I was feeling tithe was wrong and I prayed to God in my closet and wanted to obey him , that makes me wicked to the core. Just pray tell me what do I have to do to become good. I thought Jesus said, no man is good, Only his Father is good. Also, I thought we were all subject with vanity. The way I see it no one should boast. I for one won't judge any of there hearts. I think just because I found truth does not make me any better.
I do believe when you have truth you will be held more acountable. Now, God is a fair judge will he hold the blind more accountable, if he chooses who knows truth and who doesn't. Obviously maybe we should talk more about the Second, Lake of Fire. I know Ray does not even think he is chosen. Its all up to God so who knows who it will be.
In His Love,
Marlene
Who are you responding to? I didn't read any comments from anyone that would prompt this response...or are you just speaking your mind to no one in particular? No offense just trying to keep up with this thread.
Marques
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Marques, You told me those who are blind have a wicked heart. So, this means until he unblinds them they will have wicked hearts? Well, what I am asking you is do you mean while I was in Babylon I had a wicked heart. I did not belive in tithe. I thought we were to give as God dealt with our heart. I was still in Babylon but did not believe I had to give a tithe. Also, I did not believe in trinity. But, I did belive in hell at the time. I hated hell and thats what drove me out of there. When, I saw there was no Hell I did not want to go back. But, I know while in Babylon god did some things for me. He answered somprayers that had to be all from God. My husband and I tried to get a house a couple of times. We could not afford the payments for some of the houses and then we applied for a farmers home and we made $500 doallars too much. He was working himself over trying to figure out how we could make $500 dollars less. I said, honey you have yourself so worked up. My husband never gets worked up over things. So, I said, why dont we pray for what we need. I said , Like a house with one more bedroom and a garage. Well, we gave up on the hunt. A few years latter his Great-Grandmother passed away and his Grandmother bought us her house. Guess, what it had. One bedroom and a garage. What, I am saying you think it is impossible to be anything but wicked while in Babylon's churches. Now, I have become disabled and if we had bought one of those homes we would have been in a mess.
What, I am trying to say is it possible not to be wicked to the core and be in Babylon? So, are all there prayers in vain? He has answered many prayers in my life time, while blind to all his truths. What, is your opinion on this. I have not seen just wicked people in those chruches. I mean they are blind, so that makes them wicked. God says none are good. So, is it my imagination God answered prayers while I was in Babylon.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Marques, You said, "That those blinded still have a wicked heart". Now, are you telling me all in Babylon churches are not able to have the Holy Spirit live in them and guide them. If, they pray to him and believe, how can we know. Obviously, the Holy Spirit brings them out of church. But, I know some people in churches that really show love. I have had Love given to me by some in those churches. So, you are telling me all there time in those churches were in vain. Do you think any of them could while in there are being guided by the Holy Spirit. While, in those churches I have been showed things that without God in my life I could not have known. Also, he has answered many prayers in my life. I was not ever asking for my wants. I asked for needs. I knew even in those churches it was not about giving to get back. So, does that mean I was lucky and never felt that way or was the Holy Spirit Guiding me. Also, can we really judge all there hearts. I mean, if not for him I would not be here. More could come out. I mean he loves the sinner there is no Hell. They are blind and he choose that. We were all made in vanity, not just the ones in Babylon Churches. I just feel that is Gods judgement not ours. I will not post anymore. Obviously, I don't want to cause trouble. But, I think Love means more then anything. I just think we should be nicer. God has been to us.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Marlene,
Like I said before God will be the Judge. Right now on this earth God has to be the Judge of who is and who isn't His. I don't see that we can do anything beyond discerning for our own life what is right and what is not. We all came out of something and we all were led of God. I have always believed that God put me where He wanted me at any given time. Even when I was in that church I talked about in the beginning of this thread I was led there by God He taught me so many things there and when He was ready for me to move on He took me out.
One of the ways God moved me out was by letting me see the pettiness of all the money collecting, there were other things too, and each time I learned something about it what was wrong I realized God was leading me to the door! I have no desire to go back to any of that ever again.
We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, and the heart is exceedingly wicked. Jer. 17:9 again.
But we can't say because we were ignorant of the truth even when we were faithfully following after God we were far from God! Oh, no! believe me I believed in the power of prayer back then as much as I do now and it's like Ray has said, if you are praying for God's will to be done, it will! If you are seeking God's will you are doing what He wants you to do! You may make mistakes along the way, but God is in control. You never pray in vain unless you are praying outside of God's will.
The ones who are leaders of these churches who are leading people in a direction opposite of God's will are the ones Jesus was directing his scathing remarks to. AND in His doing that it opens our eyes to see what their sin was so that we would be able to recognize these deceptions when God opens our eyes and our minds to these things now. I'm not sure I am eloquent enough to really get this idea across.
In Love,
Kathy :)
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Marques, You told me those who are blind have a wicked heart. So, this means until he unblinds them they will have wicked hearts? Well, what I am asking you is do you mean while I was in Babylon I had a wicked heart.
Marlene,
Whoa, whoa, whoa...I think you misunderstood me. I only responded to your comment about those being in church having a 'good heart'. I was just showing you from scripture that no one has a good heart, in or out of church. In church, the members always like to say things like that: God know your heart or this person has a good heart. It sounds good to the flesh but is a total contradiction to the scriptures. No one has a good heart...it's just the way it is.
Now grace, which is the divine influence of God upon your heart, changes our wicked, carnal hearts. This happens through judgment, starting with the House of God now.
What, I am saying you think it is impossible to be anything but wicked while in Babylon's churches.
Whether in Babylon or not, everyone's heart is wicked until the grace of God changes it. Wicked may seem like a strong word, but our heart is not set to do the will of the Father until He changes it. No matter how many 'good deeds' we claim to do.
What, I am trying to say is it possible not to be wicked to the core and be in Babylon? So, are all there prayers in vain? He has answered many prayers in my life time, while blind to all his truths. What, is your opinion on this. I have not seen just wicked people in those chruches. I mean they are blind, so that makes them wicked. God says none are good. So, is it my imagination God answered prayers while I was in Babylon.
Isa 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
I don't speak on terms of levels of wickedness like 'wicked to the core' or 'somewhat evil'. Evil is evil. And many of the idols of the heart that members of Babylon hold onto instead of seeking the will of the Father are evil.
Yes there prayers are in vain...Christ says to pray 'in My name'. That doesn't just mean literally saying the word Jesus. It means standing on and believing everything His name stands for. Members of the church don't do that. They pray to a jesus who is NOT the savior of the world, only a few. So yes, there prayers are in vain as that jesus does not exist. It doesn't matter if 10 million dollars falls out of the sky after praying to this fake jesus who only saves a few. It is only part of the delusion to keep one in the dark.
Matt 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Only one group of individuals on this earth do anything in 'Jesus name'. And while Christ calls these deeds 'wonderful works', He then states that they are 'workers of iniquity' and that He 'never knew them'. So yes, there prayers are in vain as it takes obedience to truly worship God.
Now, I have become disabled and if we had bought one of those homes we would have been in a mess.
Not to make light of your situation, but which is greater...the house that you received when you belonged to Babylon OR the spiritual house that Ray has taught you to build on the foundation of Jesus Christ?
Hope this helps,
Marques
P. S. You can PM sometime if I need to explain more clearly...I was never trying to say those in Babylon are worse or that we are any better...just stating that worship without obedience is in vain.
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Kathy, Yes, you answered my question. I know thats for God to Judge. I know there are lots of Pastors and things who do know, and many who do not know.
Yes, I am like you. I believe God has directed my life all the time. This was about Leaders, but I was wondering about the blind. Being we were once blind.
I mean I know God answered prayers of mine. I also, know he corrected me when I sinned. But, I do know now when I go to him I worship him in Spirit and Truth. I no longer believe in Hell and this really shows his love. I do remember as a child reading he was saviour of the world and I never thought any different untill I got into some Churches that teach Hell. . Well, thanks. I guess I was confusing some others.Thank God you understood what I was trying to say.
I don't like to seem difficult. Thanks you helped alot.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Marques, You said, "That those blinded still have a wicked heart". Now, are you telling me all in Babylon churches are not able to have the Holy Spirit live in them and guide them. If, they pray to him and believe, how can we know. Obviously, the Holy Spirit brings them out of church. But, I know some people in churches that really show love. I have had Love given to me by some in those churches. So, you are telling me all there time in those churches were in vain. Do you think any of them could while in there are being guided by the Holy Spirit. While, in those churches I have been showed things that without God in my life I could not have known. Also, he has answered many prayers in my life. I was not ever asking for my wants. I asked for needs. I knew even in those churches it was not about giving to get back. So, does that mean I was lucky and never felt that way or was the Holy Spirit Guiding me. Also, can we really judge all there hearts. I mean, if not for him I would not be here. More could come out. I mean he loves the sinner there is no Hell. They are blind and he choose that. We were all made in vanity, not just the ones in Babylon Churches. I just feel that is Gods judgement not ours. I will not post anymore. Obviously, I don't want to cause trouble. But, I think Love means more then anything. I just think we should be nicer. God has been to us.
In His Love,
Marlene
Hello Marlene,
Sorry, my last response was before I saw this comment as well.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Christ leads His disciples into all truth, not truth mixed with the doctrines of man like the church teaches. My last comment answered your prayer question.
Christ calls these same people that you state showed so much love: 'workers of iniquity'. I'm not one to argue with the words of Christ.
Marques
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Marques.
One question maybe a few, where are you coming from these days may I ask? Tell me, are you the elect of God and no one knows it but you? Who are you to judge anyone whether they are in the churches or in a barroom? Have you through much learning become more righteous than everyone else?
Did God call you or have you elected to choose God? Do you truly know another’s heart? Now I see sister Marlene does not even want to post anymore because of your ridicule. How do you feel about that?
Did Ray teach us that all people who go to church are condemned by God? I used to go to church did you? How about drug addicts and alcoholics do they have a one way ticket to the lake of fire? Or what about the prostitute who turns tricks to support her children?
God caused humanity to suffer vanity so which one out of humanity do you wish to condemn? You need to lighten up brother. You know when they brought the women who was caught in adultery before Christ which was a stoning offence he said let him here who is without sin cast the first stone . What would have you said Marques?
Marlene, I hope you do not stop posting here, remember even Jesus said to peter get behind me Satan. That’s right Marlene Satan talks through those who believe and know so much about the things of God but have a heart of stone when it comes to a brother or sister.
Marlene, remember when Eve saw that the tree of good and evil was good for knowledge she went for it because of the pride of life. Marlene, I’ll tell you what I heard a long time ago, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s a duck my sister and don’t you run from it because that’s exactly what Satan wants you to do but you just tell him you been forgiven and he got no business here.
God bless you sister and please don’t ever feel you cannot post, I felt like that only a day or two ago.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Well, then it must be speaking of all people in it. Leaders and followers. Well, he is the Potter and we are the Clay, but I do believe he will want us to judge in Love like he does. I believe his word does state that those who understand the most will be held accountable for more. Since, we know the Truth we will be accountable for more. Now, that can make you fear and tremble. All, we can do is pray like it depends on him, cause it does. They, don't know all truths because he has not decided to show him his truths yet. We never know he still could some. I never knew he was going to with me. He will judge them they will see truth and learn how to walk in those truths. I am just happy that there is no Hell. One, never knows until that day who is chosen. I just know he has put the want in me to run a race. Its all up to him. I just choose to show love even to the lost. He went after the one that was lost.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Marques.
One question maybe a few, where are you coming from these days may I ask? Tell me, are you the elect of God and no one knows it but you? Who are you to judge anyone whether they are in the churches or in a barroom? Have you through much learning become more righteous than everyone else?
Did God call you or have you elected to choose God? Do you truly know another’s heart? Now I see sister Marlene does not even want to post anymore because of your ridicule. How do you feel about that?
Did Ray teach us that all people who go to church are condemned by God? I used to go to church did you? How about drug addicts and alcoholics do they have a one way ticket to the lake of fire? Or what about the prostitute who turns tricks to support her children?
God caused humanity to suffer vanity so which one out of humanity do you wish to condemn? You need to lighten up brother. You know when the brought the women who was caught in adultery before Christ which was a stoning offence he said let him here who is without stone cast the first stone. What would have you said Marques?
Marlene, I hope you do not stop posting here, remember even Jesus said to peter get behind me Satan. That’s right Marlene Satan talks through those who believe and know so much about the things of God but have a heart of stone when it comes to a brother or sister.
Marlene, remember when Eve saw that the tree of good and evil was good for knowledge she went for it because of the pride of life. Marlene, I’ll tell you what I heard a long time ago, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s a duck my sister and don’t you run from it because that’s exactly what Satan wants you to do but you just tell him you been forgiven and he got no business here.
God bless you sister and please don’t ever feel you cannot post, I felt like that only a day or two ago.
In God’s Love. Richard.
Richard,
Could you please point out 1 of my comments that you have such a problem with? You seem to imply that I have made many inflammatory comments so I would like to know which ones and what scripture they contradict. Thanks
Marques
P.S. Again, this simple statement summed up all my comments earlier:
I was never trying to say those in Babylon are worse or that we are any better...just stating that worship without obedience is in vain.
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Marques, To answer your question. I love knowing the truth. But, I have often had prayers answered while in Babylon. We are babes there are you saying God would not hear my prayer. He must have heard a prayer while I was lost in it. Because, I beged him for his truths. I found his truths on Rays, website. I know within our own self we are not good. But, him working in us is his good. So, how pray tell did I do good at all if he was not working in me. I would go into my closet alone and pray for his guidance. I believed he was the Saviour, but I really love knowing the truth. I worship him out of Love not fear. I Love him and don't want to hurt him. He puts that love in me and he enables me to obey. I never did think I could on my own. Matter of fact I knew not, but he loves them to and he will Judge them in truth and they will obey. But, I know you get a fair judgement by what you know.
Marques, all I can say is it is hard to understand each other on here. But, the Lord since I have learned truths here. Has made me love the blind more then ever. I actually cry for the lost and wish all could know truth. But, now it is in his time. But, he still gives me a burden to love like him. I love them and actually shed tears for them cause some are people in my family. Hope any of this is not understood. I could beat them up cause they dont know. But, I would never do this cause it is not Love, They Love me so someone enabled that in them.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Marques, To answer your question. I love knowing the truth. But, I have often had prayers answered while in Babylon. We are babes there are you saying God would not hear my prayer. He must have heard a prayer while I was lost in it. Because, I beged him for his truths. I found his truths on Rays, website. I know within our own self we are not good. But, him working in us is his good. So, how pray tell did I do good at all if he was not working in me. I would go into my closet alone and pray for his guidance. I believed he was the Saviour, but I really love knowing the truth. I worship him out of Love not fear. I Love him and don't want to hurt him. He puts that love in me and he enables me to obey. I never did think I could on my own. Matter of fact I knew not, but he loves them to and he will Judge them in truth and they will obey. But, I know you get a fair judgement by what you know.
Marques, all I can say is it is hard to understand each other on here. But, the Lord since I have learned truths here. Has made me love the blind more then ever. I actually cry for the lost and wish all could know truth. But, now it is in his time. But, he still gives me a burden to love like him. I love them and actually shed tears for them cause some are people in my family. Hope any of this is not understood. I could beat them up cause they dont know. But, I would never do this cause it is not Love, They Love me so someone enabled that in them.
In His Love,
Marlene
Marlene,
I'm sorry, you say you're answering my question but I never asked one. I made a simple comment that was falsely made into me judging members of Babylon. I read many comments from you and Richard to me but these comments are never responses to my statements.
You and Richard ask me questions that I have never implied otherwise:
1. You ask me if God would not hear your prayer...I never said he wouldn't; I only stated that worship without obedience is in vain.
2. You ask how you did good if he was not working in you...I showed you that members of Babylon are said to have 'good works' but Christ still calls them 'workers of iniquity' [Matt 7:21-24] Stop trying to make it your opinion vs. my opinion...the scriptures speak for themselves, my opinion is not needed.
3. You ask me if those in Babylon have the Holy Spirit guiding them...I showed you scriptures that state that the spirit leads one into all truth [John 16:13] so NO they don't have the spirit in them. Please read the LOF series #7 & 8 for more information.
4. You ask me if I or others can judge their hearts...We don't need nor have to; they would rather worship the doctrines of man than that of God. Their own words and deeds condemn them. Not to mention the very words of Christ throughout His Word.
Now about your prayers being answered while in Babylon:
2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Isa 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
While we were in Babylon, whenever our prayers were answered, it caused us to go deeper and deeper into the heresy that is taught there. This is what God wanted at that time for us. When we were called out, we learn that those situations were merely to keep us in the dark. We now learn that our prayers are to have the Father's will be the desire of our hearts. We pray in the name of Jesus and everything it stands for including being the Savior of the world. We pray that His will be done and do not pray contrary to it (like world peace or peace in Israel) or any other junk.
I understand you are not trying to start a confrontation and I believe you as I have never read any of your posts that would suggest otherwise. Again I will state the original message I was trying to convey from the beginning before this went all downhill:
I was never trying to say those in Babylon are worse or that we are any better...just stating that worship without obedience is in vain.
Thanks,
Marques
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Hi Brothers and Sisters,
These Scriptures speak best to address what our heart is like, there are any amount of Scripture that will state the same thing
in several different ways. Like Jesus Christ Says:
John 6:63:
It is the spirit that vivifies; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Jeremiah 17: 9-18
9-The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?
10-I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.
11-As the partridge that broodeth over young which she hath not brought forth, so is he that getteth riches, and not by right; in the midst of his days he shall leave them, and at his end he shall be a fool.
12-Thou throne of glory, on high from the beginning, thou place of our sanctuary,
13-Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth,
because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
14-Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise.
15-Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.'
16-As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that
which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee.
17-Be not a ruin unto me; Thou art my refuge in the day of evil.
18-Let them be ashamed that persecute me, but let not me be ashamed; Let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed; Bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.
george.
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Marques.
One question maybe a few, where are you coming from these days may I ask? Tell me, are you the elect of God and no one knows it but you? Who are you to judge anyone whether they are in the churches or in a barroom? Have you through much learning become more righteous than everyone else?
Did God call you or have you elected to choose God? Do you truly know another’s heart? Now I see sister Marlene does not even want to post anymore because of your ridicule. How do you feel about that?
Did Ray teach us that all people who go to church are condemned by God? I used to go to church did you? How about drug addicts and alcoholics do they have a one way ticket to the lake of fire? Or what about the prostitute who turns tricks to support her children?
God caused humanity to suffer vanity so which one out of humanity do you wish to condemn? You need to lighten up brother. You know when they brought the women who was caught in adultery before Christ which was a stoning offence he said let him here who is without sin cast the first stone . What would have you said Marques?
Marlene, I hope you do not stop posting here, remember even Jesus said to peter get behind me Satan. That’s right Marlene Satan talks through those who believe and know so much about the things of God but have a heart of stone when it comes to a brother or sister.
Marlene, remember when Eve saw that the tree of good and evil was good for knowledge she went for it because of the pride of life. Marlene, I’ll tell you what I heard a long time ago, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s a duck my sister and don’t you run from it because that’s exactly what Satan wants you to do but you just tell him you been forgiven and he got no business here.
God bless you sister and please don’t ever feel you cannot post, I felt like that only a day or two ago.
In God’s Love. Richard.
Richard....I think you owe Marques and apology.....I do not see anywhere where he was ridiculing Marlene.....his questions/answers was witnessed by scripture....he was only trying to explain, we all need to be a bit less quick off the block when it comes to responding to posts..... :)
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4591.0.html
I don't have a church. The world has churches, and Satan has his church (called in Revelation "The Synagogue of Satan), but I belong to none of them. The Church of Jesus Christ, the Church of the Living God, can only be joined by being SPIRITUALLY BAPTIZED INTO THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST. All spiritually converted people who forsake the glitter of this world's philosophies and materialism, are members of Christ's Church. I do claim to have a ministry in that Church.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html
People ask me about "where to go to church" almost on a daily basis. They know that their church and all other churches that they know of, do not teach the truth (worse: they teach lies and heresy). And so they think that maybe I know of a church a few blocks from where their from or a few miles from their home that does teach all of the truths of God. Sorry, there is not such thing that I am aware of.
If there were churches scattered through BABYLON THE GREAT WHORE, then there would be no need for God to admonish those whom He is choosing, to "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" (Rev. 18:4). Are we to just come out of her spiritually, but remain good social friends with them on a weekly basis?
Church is not now and never was, a physical building to congregate in to worship God. Could all the hundreds of thousands of Israelites congregate inside the tiny little tabernacle in the wilderness? Could ALL JUDEA congregate in the tiny Temple in Jeruslem every sabbath? The synagogues became corrupted and the churches today are corrupted. So where do you want to go? If you want fellowship why not foin a social club and keep the false religion out of your fellowship.
Jesus taught us that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not in this mountain or in Jerusalem, or in a building, or another other "place" that is corrupted. I can't tell people what to do. If "christian fellowship" means more to them than "godly worship," then I guess they just have to keep looking.
Being a follower of Jesus Christ was never designed to be a "feel good religion" as many christian churches promise if you join their particular tents on living a worldly life for Jesus. I trully never miss, "CHURCH"! I "go to church" every time I open my Bible."
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3446.0.html
You don't need a church when you learn that YOU ARE THE CHURCH. God is wherever you are, so don't feel deserted.
God be with you,
Ray
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It is funny that so many people after they read Ray's material realize that everything that they thought they knew was wrong.
Why is that the same people when then come to the forum, seldom realize that they still have so much babylon baggage with them. They seem more interested in exponding on their own beliefs and feelings.
All of us are here to fellowship, we are here to exhort and correct also. I am always grateful to someone who points out where my thinking is in error.
The inabilty to take constructive criticism is demonstartion that pride exists, even if you feel the criticism is unwarrented this can demonstrates resistance and lack of humility. If we let our self esteem and self confidence rule then there can be no growth.
Many people that come here are more expereinced with Rays work...They have been here for years ....not months. This is where we discuss Rays work. General Discussion is not a place for personal blogs. Things like that belong under Testimonies or off topics.
I really think that Marques has shown great patience. Deborah even provided Rays stand on the subject.
No offence is intended, but if offense is taken by any of these comments then only you know why and need to examine that.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
beloved
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Yup this is the place for the truth, they say you need some humor on the way to the lake of fire, you might wanna bring some kfc with you just in case you get to the lake of fire on Sunday and thier kfc`s are closed. Might be the same ones that believe God is going to give them thier very own planet to operate if they are the elect. I do not believe all the people here are of a like mind. I did not know the lake of fire is just a joke from God. Does not matter where you go here on the form, you will learn that same nonsense.
Ricky P.S. and please dont pm me with your anger again, because next time I will post it. If you have something to say to me, say it, and get over it.
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Sorry friends,
In my original post I was just trying to state an observation I had about Ray's paper. I was commenting on the reason Jesus was speaking to the leaders because they do much to deceive the flocks, the tithe was my main thing. It was an observation. Sometimes I read things in Ray's writings that really speak to me about something that I brought with me out of the churches I've been in. I read the material, study the scriptures and ask God to forgive me and remove that thing from me.
It seems I must have started a bad thing here. Isn't this board to share what we have learned from what Ray teaches? That's what I was doing, but it makes me very sad to see what has happened here! I am too simple minded to do this because to me our salvation is not really complicated, Jesus did all the work we now obey his commands without question. I know it REALLY isn't that simple, but in a way it is. Jesus said his command aren't grievous, but we are making them so sometimes.
I'm sorry again for doing this. I won't post on this board again, I will stick with testimonies and off topics where things won't be so offensive. Please forgive me. I love you all :'(
Kathy
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Yup this is the place for the truth, they say you need some humor on the way to the lake of fire, you might wanna bring some kfc with you just in case you get to the lake of fire on Sunday and thier kfc`s are closed. Might be the same ones that believe God is going to give them thier very own planet to operate if they are the elect. I do not believe all the people here are of a like mind. I did not know the lake of fire is just a joke from God. Does not matter where you go here on the form, you will learn that same nonsense.
Ricky P.S. and please dont pm me with your anger again, because next time I will post it. If you have something to say to me, say it, and get over it.
Hi Ricky,
I agree that there is a spirit of contention and strife here from time to time, where are the peacemakers, not the one's who might call themself a peacemaker but who do actively seek understanding, a common ground and speak softly without pride and ego being front and center. One of the things that can really fuel the fire is when folks make a statement that is a sarcastic put down without any basis in truth or reality.
If we perceive carnal attitudes are manifesting themselves do we add to the carnality with our own intemperate egotistical statements? Do we run and go away or do we pray for those who are presently dissatisfied perhaps even suffering? Do we attempt to improve the atmosphere or do we descend into hate and self righteousness? Do we choose sides by picking out any sentence or phrase made by someone "in the other camp" that we might scorn, mock and accuse endearing ourselves to others who might glory in division? To what end are these thoughts and actions, what might be the end result if everyone went forward with what they felt was right rather than seeking His will first and living up to the promises made to Him when things are going well with us?
It is quite easy to be of good cheer interacting with those around us when we feel good but how about when we are going through a stressful time of it, do we depend on God to strengthen us to rise above our circumstances or do we attempt to spread the misery?
I will be honest and direct with you Ricky, your seething discontentment is very evident and I for one do not appreciate it, it reeks of self justification, none of us are perfect but some are seeking the purification that leads to perfection, was this quote from you a fruit of His Spirit or from the spirit of another?
I do pray for your peace of heart and spirit,
Joe
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Kathy
your topic was a good one, do not apologize for other's behavior or responses.
General Discussion is a place to learn to discern and to discuss what we have learned from Rays writings and also a place to discuss what we want to learn.
You show a humble spirit and that is good. We all however need to study and get a good grasp on the Truth in Gods word and when we are challenged study and read more. We are told to go on to maturity. This means coming off milk and pablum and starting to eat more solid food.
beloved
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Sorry friends,
No need to apologize Kathy!
In my original post I was just trying to state an observation I had about Ray's paper. I was commenting on the reason Jesus was speaking to the leaders because they do much to deceive the flocks, the tithe was my main thing. It was an observation. Sometimes I read things in Ray's writings that really speak to me about something that I brought with me out of the churches I've been in. I read the material, study the scriptures and ask God to forgive me and remove that thing from me.
I also find that when verifying scriptures Ray references that I veer into new discoveries often (once again) finding myself in dire need of His healing grace.
It seems I must have started a bad thing here. Isn't this board to share what we have learned from what Ray teaches? That's what I was doing, but it makes me very sad to see what has happened here! I am too simple minded to do this because to me our salvation is not really complicated, Jesus did all the work we now obey his commands without question. I know it REALLY isn't that simple, but in a way it is. Jesus said his command aren't grievous, but we are making them so sometimes.
That is exactly what this board was intended to be but for some reason (one I attempted to draw out in another thread), often when a BT topic or thread appears it ends up descending into strife and hurt feelings because of presumptuousness or some other ego based emotion. Who inspires us to go with our own feelings? To puff up our self worth, our pride?
I'm sorry again for doing this. I won't post on this board again, I will stick with testimonies and off topics where things won't be so offensive. Please forgive me. I love you all :'(
Kathy
Dear Kathy there is nothing to forgive you for, please continue to post on how the articles speak to you, we most assuredly need more, not less of those topical threads, we all need to continue to grow but some of us seem to have less tolerence for growing pains than others but they need to learn too.
Thank you for your message, His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
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Joe,
where are the peacemakers, not the one's who might call themself a peacemaker but who do actively seek understanding, a common ground and speak softly without pride and ego being front and center.
In answer to your above stated question, IMO, those people have stopped posting and I for one miss their calming words and insight.
Eileen
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those people have stopped posting and I for one miss their calming words and insight.
Eileen
I truly wonder why those people stopped posting, i missed all of them aswell. :'(
Rodger
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Beloved.
I agree with the things you say as you are right, its about learning and growing and I know there are brothers and sisters who have been studying Ray’s papers much longer than others of us here and even been apart of this forum much longer too.
I also appreciate very much when I ask a question and receive and answer.
We are all at different distances on our journey as you know, some here may be eating meat while others can only drink milk.
I for one will not say to any here I have arrived and I know there are many things about me that are carnal but I know these things because God is working with me and showing me these things.
There are those of us who are not nearly as knowledgably as others are here and we look up to all of you whom understand more than we do. But I would pray I never look down on those who know less than I do who are for the first time reading Ray’s papers. I don’t agree with using criticism or constructive criticism especially with those of us who are new converts in the Lord because we are more carnally minded than those who been growing in the Lord for years and so patience and love does the young spirit that God is working with good.
I’m not against brother Marques at all but I read and felt that our sister Marlene was going to stop posting not because of what Marques said but how he said it. I only asked Marques a few questions for Marques to think about, but only to point out no matter how much we know, every question should be answered with love and respect because if not for the grace of God where would any of us be.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Kathy, there is nothing wrong with what you have posted, people are adding jokes and nonsense to what someone has learned from Ray, I do not think that is funny, what does the bible say about vain talk and vain imagination's. Joe, would I not be attempting to change the atmosphere here with, nonsense talk and scripture not going together ? Hate? on the internet, sorry Joe, my nature does not work that way, it is impossible for me to hate someone over the net, now that is funny!! lol
Ricky
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Joe,
where are the peacemakers, not the one's who might call themself a peacemaker but who do actively seek understanding, a common ground and speak softly without pride and ego being front and center.
In answer to your above stated question, IMO, those people have stopped posting and I for one miss their calming words and insight.
Eileen
Hi Eileen,
They have likely become weary of being posted over (ignored) with little to no contemplation of the words they have written out of experience and the love they have for what they have been given.
Too many here of late only appear to seek contention and confrontation, they perceive that they have an audience and desire the approval and the applause of men.
Patience and longsuffering are only for others to exercise.......
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
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Eileen
When I understand Jesus' words in the Aramaic, (Matthew was written in this language originally) The word translate more like this:
A heavenly attitude is theirs (touveyhoun); those serving (abdey) the peace of God (shlama); they will be called the children of God (Alaha).
Christianity is not passive but active, energetic, alive, going beyond despair.
Many people have PM me and are upset with all the incessant self absorbed gibberish that has recently appeared on the board. It is not an easy thing to stand and respond to it without sounding offensive. Some members do not feel that they are ready to do this .....yet.
beloved
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Hello All: I feel sick about this. It is hard to explain yourself on here. But, I never did feel in place in Babylon Churches. One, I never did believe in tithe. I never could afford it, nor did I believe if I gave I would get. When, the Lord drew me I was at home alone with him. My husband came home from work to find out that the Lord had come and I repented my sin. What, I was trying to say is it possible the things the Lord did for me was happening then cause he was going to call me out. Also, his parent separated and his mother and sister got into a church and talked us into going. We went but never was active in it. Later years we did some things, but never that active. I never believed the trinity was true. We belonged to a little church of not many members.
I never was invovled in a large church. When, I found Rays website I had not been to church for over a year. I had no intentions on going back. My Mother and Husband do not go either. I took Ray's paper on Trinity and showed it to both my husband and mother. They both said,"It never made sense."
I showed them his paper on tithe. They agreed it was true. My Mother told me she never did believe in Hell. My Mother always believe in God and obeyed and believed prayer worked.
I guess, what I am trying to says is I wonder how many don't believe all they are taught there? While, I was there it just all began to feel like kids playing.
I know, I had idols of the heart. We all do. I was always shy and I could sing. Finally, I started doing that in church. But, I got tired of that too. During that year alone with God not going to church. He shaped my life all alone. Without, any church , even with out knowing about Ray. I began a search, about different believes in the churches and they looked like total confusion to me. I began to think who could be saved. I began to hate hell. I felt in a hell in my mind. I believe most of this is my fault on here. I did not express what I was saying well. I just really am heart sick over it.
Well, I begged God for his truths and he led me to Ray's Website. For the first time I felt like I found my place. I have no attentions of going back where I came from. I have been set free. I was just wondering, if some could be like me. I mean thinking things are not right in Babylon's churches but just have not come out yet. I mean I do believe God can move in there spirit at anytime and be working on them.
I am not trying to teach. I know I have only been on here a few months. I did read his papers for a year before joining. I have never caused division even in Babylons churches I kept my mouth shut. Well, I will continue to post on the prayer and introduction sight. I will keep my mouth shut and try and learn from your post on topics. I never have had much pride. I never thought I was anything special anyways. All, I know is I believe the truths Ray presents cause they are in the scripture and makes sense to me. I have no desire to go back to that. But, I do have compassion on all the loss. I have Love.
Well, I hope you all understand and know I never meant for any of this to happen. I am not angry with anyone.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Joe, I feel your love. I have often talked to you and felt you were trying your best kindly to help me understand. I think alot of this comes from lack of voice and in seeing ones expressions. I just want to learn and grow. I know in alot ways I have grown. I guess coming out of Babylon just gives me such a feeling of compassion on the lost. I mean the whole world is deceived, except for the elect. I know it is Gods plan, but I am sure we will be using compassion if we are chosen.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Kathy, there is nothing wrong with what you have posted, people are adding jokes and nonsense to what someone has learned from Ray, I do not think that is funny, what does the bible say about vain talk and vain imagination's. Joe, would I not be attempting to change the atmosphere here with, nonsense talk and scripture not going together ? my nature does not work that way, it is impossible for me to hate someone over the net, now that is funny!! lol
Ricky
Hi Ricky,
Who mentioned hate? Your statement;
"Hate? on the internet, sorry Joe,"
Why put my name in association of what you yourself wrote? Please, if you (or anyone) responds to something anybody writes keep the commentary within the parameters of what they actually wrote.
Peace,
Joe
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Joe, I feel your love. I have often talked to you and felt you were trying your best kindly to help me understand. I think alot of this comes from lack of voice and in seeing ones expressions. I just want to learn and grow. I know in alot ways I have grown. I guess coming out of Babylon just gives me such a feeling of compassion on the lost. I mean the whole world is deceived, except for the elect. I know it is Gods plan, but I am sure we will be using compassion if we are chosen.
In His Love,
Marlene
Thanks for the kind words Marlene, I understand what you are saying about those who have yet to have their eyes opened but this is not something we need to fret over, it is in God's most capable hands.
One thing that Babylon does that truly identifies her is looking outward for the beast, antichrist, the lost, etc. and of course they believe the "winning of souls" is their responsibilty, not God's. These fallacies should be far removed from our thoughts.
Our battle is within, we don't overcome the world no mere man does, it is Christ who does the overcoming, please take peace from this not anxiety as we are God's creation not our own.
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
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Joe, and Rodger, You both are right. I need to focus on his truths. I can't save the world. I can only Love them.
In His Love,
Marlene
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(Heb 4:7) again He designates a certain day, "Today," saying in David, after such a long time just as it has been said, "Today if you* hear His voice, stop hardening your* hearts [fig., becoming stubborn]." [Psalm 95:7,8]
Whenever the word of God is speaking we need to be humble and bending in spirit
(Heb 4:12) For the word of God [is] living and effective and sharper than every double-edged sword, and [is] penetrating as far as [the] division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and [is] able to discern [the] thoughts and intentions of the heart [fig., inner self].
(Heb 4:13) And no created thing is able to be hidden before Him, but all [things are] naked and have been exposed to His eyes to whom we [must give] an account.
Jeus himself dealth with unbelief and the false doctrines purpretrated by Judaism .
I do not see any person assuming that they are more superior...what I see is the need to always be challenging is their doctrines.
We know that all will be saved but their doctrines will be burnt like chaff.
Do we want it done now or later?
(1Pe 1:13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;(1Pe 1:14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
(1Pe 2:1) Therefore, having put aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisies and envies and all slanders,
(1Pe 2:2) as newborn babies long for the spiritual, pure milk, so that you* shall grow by it,
(1Pe 2:3) if indeed you* tasted [fig., experienced] that the Lord [is] gracious.
I am going to take this time and contemplate on His Word
beloved
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Forgive the interruption of an "old mountain woman" here. I feel unworthy to speak at times because I feel like I don't know as much as others do although I am trying to read and learn. I understand about giving that was mentioned earlier in the post, with your heart and not for something back. I will not judge anyone on that because that is what I did as well. I also do not believe that churches do right by the offerings of the members. I would prefer to see the money help others. Now, I don't go to church but I take what I have and try to help others. I don't have much money at all but I do believe that God takes kind words and deeds as an offering to Him... not a bunch of elders or what not. We are brothers and sisters in the truth. Sometimes when I was young me and my brother would get into it but it never changed the love we had for one another. Likewise here I think we can talk and discuss... maybe even disagree but still love one another. Blessings to ya'll this beautiful day, Jennie
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Those verses will really help me Rodger. I have them marked. Also, Joe, yes I really do need to rest from all that worry about others. That most definitely is left over thinking. I will Pray to God to help me to overcome this need to take care of his creatures. I can't even take care of myself. Thanks for this kind reminder.
In His Love,
Marlene
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I am gladden they have Marlene.
Be peaceful and Enjoy your day
Rodger
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Beloved, Thanks for the verses I have them all wrote down and will study them today. Joe, and Rodger both helped me to see that I had anxiety for the lost. That, certainly comes from my old teachings. I am so happy all will be saved. I do so want to have the old man killed here. I have been sick and tired of it for a long time.
In His Love,
Marlene
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New Friend on Bible Truths,
I see from the forum site that you live in Alberta, Canada.
I’ve always been curious about the great North country ever since I watched the TV program Sergeant Preston of the RCMP. Of course that was a few years ago and I realize that you may not be familiar with the program.
In any case I like to meet folks from other states or nations and the only difficulty I have had is with new languages. So it is a blessing when I can meet someone speaking English.
I am writing to you at this time because I FEEL that I may be of some help with our understanding of the purpose of the Bible Truths forum. I also realize that there is much to cover in our ongoing discussions and we can’t explore it all at a distance with email in the same way we could face to face. Accordingly I ask that you be patient with my poor effort to help a little even though I don’t know your mind or have the necessary insight to respond in a truly helpful manner.
To address just one aspect of your many questions and valuable comments please let me start with the intended purpose of God’s calling and choosing and election of certain individuals to serve in Jesus’ administration in the future when Christ is ruling on the Earth. Each of the following points may be partially correct or not applicable to the current needs of members of the forum. I hope you will take the time to respond and help me to see more clearly.
1. I notice that many members admit that they have been reading for a short time. So it seems to me that they are “naturally” trying to take a short cut to understanding and hoping that the other forum members will provide the short answer without all the time consuming work involved. This does seem reasonable because we all come from different cultures and studying together SHOULD shorten the study time as long as we cooperate in mutual love and respect.
2. Keeping in mind that this is the work of God IN US and not our work FOR God, it is helpful to recognize that God controls the level of our understanding and our ability to comprehend His plan for our development and growth. It is also helpful to recognize that much of what we understand is given to us while we sleep or are otherwise involved in daily activities, be they mental or physical, at home or at work.
3. Since our deeper understanding comes to us spiritually, we cannot realistically expect to grasp the teachings of Ray Smith or the explanations of others on the forum without having the time for REFLECTION and PRAYER and careful erasing/deletion of formerly believed dogma of Christendom.
4. It seems to me that most of the perceived hurts or perceived rudeness in our personal communications is the result of offering quick answers or quick responses to what at the time seem to be simple and direct topics of doctrinal conversations. In my own case I normally take a day to answer the questions put forth if I have anything to offer and I normally write a response fairly quickly while the thoughts are in my mind and then edit or rewrite thoughtfully what I had written emotionally at first. This restriction on my submissions to the forum means that my email may go the bottom of the pile and never be seen by the person who started the thread, so I do understand the desire to submit a response quickly. It’s like sitting at the table with friends and always being interrupted by others before we can get our thoughts out. Not too much fun and we don’t get our concerns addressed.
5. So what is the answer? Well, one thing seems to come up regularly and that is the question of “what are we doing here” or “why are we being called now while others are not” or “how are we different than those who will be called and judged later in the Lake of Spiritual Fire”? I propose to address those questions in the following points.
6. God is calling everyone, no exceptions, but some regardless of age or years of serious study, are not ready to serve the purpose that God has for them at this time in their lives.
It is important to recognize that God knows our innermost thoughts and talents/gifts and our life experience AND God has a place or an office for us where we will fit perfectly when the time comes. We ourselves don’t really know our own thoughts on most subjects and so we would not be fulfilled or happy in generations to come if we had free choice in the matter. Therefore it is GOOD that we do not have free choice.
7. Since ALL will be called, is there any valid reason for us to be concerned about when we or any of our friends or relatives will be called? What difference will it make?
Let me offer for your consideration the possibilities that I believe are close to the facts.
a. Those called in this life and chosen and finally elected will have been judged while Satan is the god of this world and will have lived IN this world and yet not a PART of this world. They or we hopefully, will have had to resist the temptations of Greed and Lust within our own souls as well as living with the lies that the secular world and Christendom have spread about God and His son and God’s plan for humanity. All the fear and concern for our/their fate and never seeing their loved ones again etc.
b. Those called in the judgment will live in a world ruled by Jesus Messiah and the elect of God who will have been proved and selected by God to serve and praise Him and promote the wonderful plan of God. Will their time of judgment be similar to ours? Will they have to resist Satan? Will truth abound in the world at that time? Will ALL of our leaders and officials be honest and truthful or else not retained in office?
I believe that their judgment in the spiritual lake of fire will be much simpler than ours has been and that most of what they will have to overcome is their own covetousness and lust for FREE WILL and what will cause crying and gnashing of teeth will be having to see themselves just as they are when they compare themselves with Christ and to realize perhaps for the first time that THEY/WE are the one who crucified Christ due to their/our personal sins.
c. Then shall Messiah teach righteousness to ALL and they shall learn just as we have had to learn during this life time. The difference will be that their time of judgment and correction will be easier in a society in which Jesus is ruling with justice for all.
In my own case, I understand at this time that my deceased parents will be in that kind of judgment. My Grandson Brandon who died in June 08 will be in that judgment and I am satisfied and trusting in God to provide loving justice or training for them.
Of course I realize that this commentary is incomplete, but I base my assumptions on the FACT that God loves His children and that God is just and that God desires to save ALL. Everything will be done according to God’s will at the appointed time.
So, why are we who are called now worried about whether we will be chosen and become one of the ELECT? I mean really, if we love God and if we have faith to TRUST God, why have we anything to worry about? Isn’t it true that “perfect love” cast out ALL fear? If our answer is yes, then we must admit that our love is not yet perfect. We do not yet trust God completely. So then it must be a process. God gives to each of us, those He has called, an earnest or a portion of the holy spirit to begin to guide us into faith. As God then motivates us to exercise His spirit in our daily lives, more of God’s spirit is added and we gradually, some more rapidly than others, come to trust God and to see with our eyes and hear with our ears what the spirit says to the believer.
It is not the folks on the forum or Ray Smith or the moderators that are holding us back. If it is anyone, it is Jesus our Lord who sets the pace at which we learn. In addition it is our fear of the unknown, which fear God will replace with courage when He is ready and when the lessons we are required to learn have done their work in us.
I hope that this message has been of some help.
Please look up the scriptures yourself or ask specific questions and I will provide scriptures to cover the topic. I believe that all of this is covered in Bible Truths if one takes the time to search for it. It is a worthwhile task and time well spent.
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Thanks, Bob!
Fellow B-T members, pray and meditate on this beautiful post that one of our elders, having taken time out of his day, present's to us.
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Joe, your statement said, or do we descend into Hate, and self righteousness, and this is not who I am or what I do.
Ricky
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I was just thinking and Joe your Kind reply to my apology made me think about this, we are all in this thing together here! we have to be kind to each other and love each other because that is our command from Jesus!
We keep saying things to each other that hurt, they sound bad here because we can't see and hear each other!
My prayer is that when we read or post here we would maybe close our eyes and imagine the others are there and listen to what we say in our mind and listen to the tone of our thoughts. I will post again but I'm going to study hard in the meantime so that if I have something to say it will be relevant to the topic and as kind as I can say it.
Blessings to you all!
Kathy :)
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Bob.
Your reply # 55 was totally beautiful and heartfelt. I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your words of wisdom as it lets me also understand how much I need to learn and understand.
Thank you once again Bob for the wisdom you have shown in the way you have shown it. Sometimes I feel so overwhelmed with learning these truths and also applying the truth in my life but you are so right about the things you said and I just felt inspired by the thoughtfulness of your words. :)
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Bob,
Ahhhh, finally, a peaceful, non-judgmental, thorough, heartfelt and wise response. Thank you.
Eileen
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Hi indianabob,
I just quoted a snippet of your post. Thank you and Thank GOD and Our Lord Jesus Christ for such a calming
and instructive post. The words you wrote are so piercing and yet wholesome that my Spirit jumped with joy
when i started to read them. Thanks again and i will take heed and as always be careful to uplift or console
and not be harsh in judgement even in jest.
In Spirit and Truth brother,
george.
New Friend on Bible Truths,
I am writing to you at this time because I FEEL that I may be of some help with our understanding of the purpose of the Bible Truths forum. I also realize that there is much to cover in our ongoing discussions and we can’t explore it all at a distance with email in the same way we could face to face. Accordingly I ask that you be patient with my poor effort to help a little even though I don’t know your mind or have the necessary insight to respond in a truly helpful manner.
To address just one aspect of your many questions and valuable comments please let me start with the intended purpose of God’s calling and choosing and election of certain individuals to serve in Jesus’ administration in the future when Christ is ruling on the Earth. Each of the following points may be partially correct or not applicable to the current needs of members of the forum. I hope you will take the time to respond and help me to see more clearly.
1. I notice that many members admit that they have been reading for a short time. So it seems to me that they are “naturally” trying to take a short cut to understanding and hoping that the other forum members will provide the short answer without all the time consuming work involved. This does seem reasonable because we all come from different cultures and studying together SHOULD shorten the study time as long as we cooperate in mutual love and respect.
It is not the folks on the forum or Ray Smith or the moderators that are holding us back. If it is anyone, it is Jesus our Lord who sets the pace at which we learn. In addition it is our fear of the unknown, which fear God will replace with courage when He is ready and when the lessons we are required to learn have done their work in us.
I hope that this message has been of some help.
Please look up the scriptures yourself or ask specific questions and I will provide scriptures to cover the topic. I believe that all of this is covered in Bible Truths if one takes the time to search for it. It is a worthwhile task and time well spent.
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Hi to all of you.
I just joined the forum a few days ago, my name is John, I live in Victoria B.C. Canada.
Found the topic on tithing interesting.
I remember some years back at a Annual business meeting at the Church I used to go to,
a board member had done some statistics on tithing.
He found it rather strange that single women in the middle age bracket tithed the least.
My wife made a comment that it is easier to tithe on eighty thousand then it is on twenty thousand.
I am glad that God opened my eyes, only He knows why it took so long.
Paul says "It's for freedom you've been set free". It feels so good to be free.
The joy of the Lord comes after you've been set free.
But the real reason I am writing is that I am looking for a good Bible translation.
I have the common ones in addition to several Dutch translations, the Country I was born in.
I am on a yearly Bible reading program,
and the last two years I have been reading from the English Standard Version.
I also have a copy of the Concordant Literal New Testament.
If any of you can give me some advice I would really appreciate that.
I am glad to be part of the group.
God bless you all.
John.
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Hi John, and welcome to the forum. Lots of people have said good things about Rotherhams translation. I haven't been able to find it here in the Bible Belt USA. No surprise there. I'm enjoying The Amplified Bible.
If you can read on your computer, the resources at www.e-sword.com are great, with lots of different translations to choose from and compare.
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I got up this morning and saw this topic which I think is related to my thread about animosity.
I'm just a little fish in a big pond, but I'll add to this thread if no one minds.
What I see here are reflections or dwelling on the past, questioning whats right or wrong, their heart, our heart, Babylon and more Babylon.
I use to dwell on my past and think of these things, I could have or should have done this or that, what was I thinking. The thoughts were many until I was feeling hurt, anger, and on it went. But now I dwell on the past to see where God was working and guiding every step I took. Its a joyful and peaceful feeling.
My point is this; When we start talking about the past in a negative way with the questions and comments I have seen on this thread and many others, it stirs emotions of pain and disappointment.
There is always the bad with the good in our trials and steps in growing and learning, but if we dwell on the bad then it keeps us from seeing the good. It bogs us down with unnecessary baggage.
All the mistakes we have made in our lives are to teach us and see how God is loving and so in control of everything.
I use to talk a lot about my ex-wife, about how she cheated on me, and if I was talking to someone that has gone through it also, well it wouldn't be long until we would be out of control. All we were doing is re living the pain and never putting it behind us. Now I can talk about these things but God is the topic w/o all the other stuff that edify s nothing.
Have I made any sense here? I hope not to offend.
My past, present and future has been given to me to humble me, to be a witness of Gods glorious work and presence. How can Gods glory be seen in us by reliving our past in a negative way. Babylon this and that, motives, hearts right or wrong. I just can't see any edification in any of it. I had to ask myself, why do I keep reliving Babylon if I have came out of it?
Peace
Roy
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I got up this morning and saw this topic which I think is related to my thread about animosity.
I'm just a little fish in a big pond, but I'll add to this thread if no one minds.
What I see here is reflections or dwelling on the past, questioning whats right or wrong, their heart, our heart.
I use to dwell on my past and think of these things, I could have or should have done this or that, what was I thinking. The thoughts were many until I was feeling hurt, anger, and on it went. But now I dwell on the past to see where God was working and guiding every step I took. Its a joyful and peaceful feeling.
My point is this; When we start talking about the past in a negative way with the questions I have seen on this thread and many others, it stirs emotions of pain and disappointment.
There is always the bad with the good in our trials and steps in growing and learning, but if we dwell on the bad then it keeps us from seeing the good. It bogs us down with unnecessary baggage.
All the mistakes we have made in our lives are to teach us and see how God is loving and so in control of everything.
I use to talk a lot about my ex-wife, about how she cheated on me, and if I was talking to someone that has gone through it also, well it wouldn't be long until we would be out of control. All we were doing is re living the pain and never putting it behind us. Now I can talk about these things but God is the topic w/o all the other stuff that edify s nothing.
Have I made any sense here? I hope not to offend.
My past, present and future has been given to me to humble me, to be a witness of Gods glorious work and presence. How can Gods glory be seen in us by reliving our past in a negative way. Babylon this and that, motives, hearts right or wrong. I just can't see any edification in any of it.
Peace
Roy
Great point Roy. I must admit, Im guilty of all that. What better place than this to have all this brought to the Light? Im not just saying that either, it is truly humbling to be exposed like that, especially in the company of BT. Be patient, I have a long way to go.
Peace, Love, G.Driggs
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Hi Roy & G. Driggs,
Most forum members, who have been here and studied for a while, know that all those blinded ones, are still our brothers and sisters. What is our focus today, is not on saving anyone, that is GOD'S TO DO. We need to learn and study and grow in the revealed Truths Of The Scriptures. We need to study to show ourselves approved by GOD, not any man.
It is more like, Come out of her My People.
Rev 2: 4-6 MKJV)
4 But I have against you that you left your first love.
5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and will remove your lampstand out of its place unless you repent.
6 But you have this, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev 3: 9-11 (MKJV)
9 Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the habitable world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly. Hold fast to that which you have, so that no one may take your crown.
Rev 14: 8-11 (CLV)
8 And another, a second messenger, (Angel) follows, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great has made all nations drink of the wine of the fury of her prostitution!"
9 And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin."
11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name."
Rev 18: 1-5 (CLV)
1 After these things I perceived another messenger descending out of heaven, having great authority. And the earth is illuminated by his glory."
2 And he cries with a strong voice, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great! And it became the dwelling place of demons and the jail of every unclean spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird,
3 for, as a result of the wine of the fury of her prostitution have all the nations fallen. And the kings of the earth commit prostitution with her ,and the merchants of the earth are rich as a result of her power to indulge."
4 And I hear another voice out of heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you should be joint participants in her sins, and lest you should be getting of her calamities,
5 for her sins were piled up to heaven, and God remembers her injuries."
george. :)
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Exactly George, but also, forgive and move on, learn, and study, and grow in the Truths of the Scriptures. Study to show ourselves approved by God. Forgive and move on. Let it go. See the good.
Peace
Roy
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Bob, thank you for your words and wisdom and gentleness in your delivery.
I would like to hear more from you.
Roy
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I have been reading on this subject and the one about animosity. I believe that Daddy God had planned our all our lives to picking out our parents, siblings or not, schools everything knowing what our choices would be in all situations... that He was molding us and preparing us. When we starting attending churches He knew who the leaders would be and they were blind. I believe through all of this that Daddy God used all of it for His glory. He knew when He call us we would respond to His voice.. His sheep and come out. George and Roy are right we have to have forgiveness in our heart. There is no point on dwelling on the past.. we have to move on. We love those people.. we hate the message of hell and tithing.. all the doctrines of men. I know that Jesus had harsh words to say to the pharisees, scribes, the others... I know also that Jesus loved them. He died for them too. He forgave them and loved them.. so must we.
I can not go back. I hope and pray to stay close to Daddy God that I would not become blind again. The past in our lives are to be like Ebenezer stones.. to see where Daddy, Father God has brought us from, to learn from it and to give Him all the glory.
We are the beast, the sinner but if we just focus on that all the time then we are not focusing on Daddy God. He is the only one that can change us through His spirit. I do see in the NT where in Romans we are called the sinner but later in the NT they are called saints. Not that we forget we are the beast but quickly repent ask forgiveness and move on to the next lesson the our wonderful Father has for us.
What has all this to do with church leaders? It was a necessary step in our growth in being made into the image of God. But knowing this wonderful truth of the Gospel and study it will do us no good if we don't walk it out in our lives bearing fruit of the spirit.
In His Love,
Bunni
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Sometimes we really need to pay attention to the words we use. From all the counsel being given, it would appear that some are being highminded or haughty about the knowledge given to us By GOD.
I say it would appear, not it is happening; because if we can discern between the object (hate sinning) and subject (sinner), then we are in accord with Scripture.
Their is no place in Scripture that i have read, where GOD instructs us to love sinning. ???
Pro 24: 23-25 (CLV)
23 These also are sayings of the wise:To be biased in judgment is never good.
24 He who says to the wicked man, You are righteous--The people shall revile him; the populace shall be indignant toward him."
25 Yet for those who reprove, it shall be pleasant, And on them shall come the blessing of good.
Rom 12: 6-10 (CLV)
6 God has also given each of us different gifts to use. If we can prophesy, we should do it according to the amount of faith we have.
7 If we can serve others, we should serve. If we can teach, we should teach.
8 If we can encourage others, we should encourage them. If we can give, we should be generous. If we are leaders, we should do our best. If we are good to others, we should do it cheerfully.
9 Be sincere in your love for others. Hate everything that is evil and hold tight to everything that is good.
10 Love each other as brothers and sisters and honor others more than you do yourself.
george. :)