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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Dustin on November 15, 2006, 12:38:33 AM
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Hi,
Does anyone know if Ray has any teachings on this subject? I am trying to gather with people who have been given a good understanding on this issue.
God Bless
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Hi Dustin,
Here are 2 emails where Ray addressed the subject of women teaching.
Women?
« on: October 15, 2006, 08:29:09 AM »
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Hallow Ray,
I have done all I could but nobody is prepared to answer my question on the above topic. Can you please clarify me on this question?
What is your view point with regards to women teaching in church? Take consideration of the following scriptures:
1. 1 Cor. 14:34.
2. Galatians 3:27-28
Regards,
George
Dear George:
I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34? If it does, the why would Paul have written it?
The answer is quote simple:
"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female." But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?
We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation. However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc. I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority. I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.
God be with you,
Ray
Women Teachers
« on: September 28, 2006, 10:08:01 AM »
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my name is Troy and I am studying women being able to declare God's Truth. If we are all (men and women) being transformed from glory to glory and to become SONS OF GOD through the spirit,being neither male or female ,how then can a believer say a woman in the flesh can't teach. That belief fall under Jewish customs and traditions.
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST." (Gal. 2:27-28). But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female. If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine. Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God" (I Cor. 11:3). This statement is not "custom and tradition.
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam" and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?" "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us: "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:18).
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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But what about women teaching sunday school? Didn't Jesus say in the Great commision to preach the Gospel to all people? Doesn't this apply to all christians male and female? Not saying that a woman should be a Pastor, but is it unbiblical for a woman to teach in general?
Love,
Madeline
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In reply to Madeline,
I would say it's not unbiblical for women to teach:
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. (Titus 2:4-5 KJV)
The older women can guide/or teach younger women, if this is needed. Women and men have different roles in this world, but in spirit they are one:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28 KJV)
However, it is clear that Paul is saying that when there is a gathering, the women should not teach:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1Co 14:34 KJV)
Women can prophesy and spread the Gospel elsewhere:
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. (Act 21:9 KJV)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (Acts 2:17-18 KJV)
Now I'm going slightly off topic here, but this is something that has to do with the oneness which should be in the relationship between men and women, as mentioned above. Often men forget that they too have to be servants of their wives. Men think that this verse takes care of everything:
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23 KJV)
This is often used as an excuse for the man to just leave all the housework to the wife, since he is the head of the wife. This is how the head should be:
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luk 22:25-26 KJV)
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mat 20:25-28 KJV)
Seems like the head position comes with a huge responsibility, a responsibility to serve and sacrifice. In those cases I think a Christian wife would willingly:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (Eph 5:22 KJV)
The marriage can be kept in perfect balance by Jesus Christ, when both man and wife follow His example of serving and loving.
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The following is a very good word by a brother who I only know as Livelystone (Doug). I hope it helps.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence
Greetings To All
The problem of whether a woman should or should not teach or hold a position that reflects anything other than being a silent submissive member is looked upon differently amongst the many different denominations. (Like wearing a hat) Within the scriptures we have several women used of God to further His Will on earth. In the OT had Queen Esther not pleaded with the King to reverse his decision based on the testimony of an evil man, the entire Jewish nation under his command would have put to death. Obviously in this instance the voice of a woman was far better than the words of a man who did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Who is to say that a woman today should not speak for the Will of God when a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will?
However I believe in strict adherence to the laws for determining truth and when I look for a second witness that states that a “woman should not teach” I find some problems finding a second witness. When we look for another scripture that speaks against a woman teaching we find one but it is directed against a woman who is evil and not qualified to teach.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
This verse certainly does nothing to keep a good woman from teaching so we need to look further. In the 5th chapter of 1st Timothy we find a lot said about woman in the church not being considered worthy of ministering the things of God. However once again we see that these unqualified woman have grown weak in their faith and “some have already turned aside after Satan”. Once again we are still lacking a reason for a woman of God to be denied the right to teach God’s Word
In 1st Tim 2 there is a reference in verse 13 to Eve who bowed in subjection to Satan just as in the 5th chapter so I question the quality of this woman that is to be silent rather than her gender. Eve is not the woman who represents the church and who is at enmity (an enemy) with Satan. Eve was not at enmity with Satan because she was in compliance with him and was part of the transgression.
Then there is another scripture to consider (amongst others) before one states that a woman is not qualified to teach the scriptures because of her gender.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing.
So in conclusion there are no two witnesses that say a woman who is qualified should not teach, consequently a woman cannot lawfully be denied the pulpit Contrary to one thinking that there are two lawful witnesses that deny woman the right to teach, the scriptures show there is no difference between a man or a woman in Christ as they are both of Him and considered equal.
There is one big however though. As Paul says some things may be lawful but are not expedient to pursue and this may apply here in certain circumstances. If a woman preaching is a problem because she is a woman, then she should either preach somewhere else or refrain from doing so where she is. Plus she had might as well go somewhere where she will be appreciated.
Now all of the above proves that there is no scriptural mandate against woman teaching or holding positions of authority in the church because of the lack of witnesses in the scriptures. However since on the surface (and for the unlearned) there appears to be so, we need to consider why this is so. Once again I urge you to look deeper and consider the spirit/ soul implication that is at the heart of the message seemingly indicating that woman should be forbidden to teach.
God is Spirit. His word is spirit and we need to stop thinking in the natural if we are to move forward in our understanding. With all the spiritual references in the Bible it amazes me that “qualified teachers” look for everything in the natural. Man is a spirit (aka image of God) within an earth suit and when he is given a soul (spiritual body) in the likeness of God, then God’s purpose for His Creation will be complete and the “Mystery of Godliness” will have been fulfilled within man.
Peace and Blessings
Doug.
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God is Spirit. His word is spirit
Very good!
I received this response from a very Spiritual lady:
(Rom 7:2) For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. I think that "woman" that has a husband is us (the Bride) while we are in the church (body of Christ)! We are bound by the "law" of the 'husband', the churches.
(Rom 7:3) So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man. When does our husband die? When the 'churches' cast us out! They cast us out because we are being "cut out" of the body having liberty in the 'spirit' no longer under the "law"! We (the Bride) is then joined to ANOTHER MAN! I am seeing that the body of Christ (church) represents 'Christ in the flesh' and under NT law! I see the OTHER MAN represents Christ the bridegroom in the spirit, no more law!
(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. There it is! We are made dead to the law, it says 'through' the body of Christ - I see that as taken through or passed through the body of Christ! All the elect come through the church! The 'bride' is joined to ANOTHER, who is that? That's Christ who was raised from the dead, the bridegroom no longer has flesh and physical order - he is all "spirit" after he died and was raised!
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Don't the churches always bring forth fruit onto death? Do they ever keep all the laws and commandments? Not likely!
(Rom 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. The law 'holds us' us back! The time does come when we are discharged from the law! We graduate at some point and come out from under the law of the 'schoolmaster'. We know the Word says.....by thine own words I will judge you. The bride is formed from a small insignificant part of the body that will not be missed - a little "rib". The overseer is much too important to the body, he's an organ like a brain or a heart! The body would miss such a part.
As men we can't let this be an idol of the heart. We know that only the Spirit can teach and give eyes to see this.
God Bless
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Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
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I enjoy the Scriptural balance you strike Eggi.
Layla the quote from Doug holds a theme wherein it causes a few alarm bells to go off in my mind. In particular…. quote:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing…..
For me this sounds the alarm because of what Ray observes that the scriptures do not contradict in:
GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ETERNAL FATE OF AFRICANS
A Sermon by: James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique by: L. Ray Smith
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."…….unquoteRays observation and the discussion on this thread points me to the following scriptures:
2 Cor 6 : 17,18 So, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not any unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor. 18. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (Why not just sons. Why did God create Adam first. Why not Eve first and Adam from her rib? Why was Jesus a man and not a woman? Because there is order.) The absence of order unleashes all kinds of ills, frustrations, pride, hurts and break downs that fall short of Gods divine perfection and will for both man and woman. There is an order. It is a Divine order. It works. It brings peace, harmony, blessing and right standing with God.
1 Peter 3 : 6 It was thus that Sarah obeyed Abraham, following his guidance and acknowledging his headship over her by calling him lord, master, leader, authority, And you are now her true daughter if you do right………..
Both Jezebel and Sarah took things into their own hands with dire consequences for both. Dogs ate Jezebel and Sarah suffered to be caused to facilitate the birth of the Nation of children without promise.
Jesus came to fulfil the scriptures and in like fashion we have to test the spirit behind every teaching to see if it contradicts any scripture or worse if it “helps to nullify “ any scripture making bitter what is sweet and sweet what is bitter.…
Dustin, I enjoyed your view point.
(Rom 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. The law 'holds us' us back! The time does come when we are discharged from the law! We graduate at some point and come out from under the law of the 'schoolmaster'. We know the Word says.....by thine own words I will judge you. The bride is formed from a small insignificant part of the body that will not be missed - a little "rib". The overseer is much too important to the body, he's an organ like a brain or a heart! The body would miss such a part.Unquote
…….. certainly the body would miss the head if it were to be beheaded! For me Christ is the head of the body just as man is the head of the woman. I do not see this as subservience or devaluation of women into a lesser role of inferiority. Not at all. I see it as design….the way God has made it to be.
For me the masculine (in men) and feminine ( in woman) of our absolute and relative differences brings the fruit of Christ’s spirit into our hearts homes and marital relationships only as our differences cease from competing or fighting to rearrange, re-write or alter the orderliness of Gods perfect design plan that shows the rules for male and female interaction in His Scriptures. The world’s wisdom that teaches men to be like woman and woman to be like man is foolishness for me. Where Jesus implored God to ….let them be one as we are one…has vast ramifications for both male and female. Two men can not make one woman and no number of woman can make or equal one man. Six apples will never be one peach and visa versa.
For me the head is to the body as God is to Christ. Our human, social issues of compliance and submission to God’s Divine design is challenged in male and female differences that come under pressure to merge or dissolve under trial and testing. So the world tries to make out of men and women a proverbial fruit salad mix up mash up cocktail of errors. God’s trial and testing is avoided by the worlds adaptation to its own design and its own form of anarchy and darkness and permissive tolerance. By contrast, under trial and testing Christ proved faithful unto death.
Do woman seek to erase the authority of men and do men no longer wish to lead women? For me, a woman that has a husband who abdicates his authority is a Jezebel in the making. When men no longer lead and woman no longer submit it produces an atmosphere in which children will not be able to clearly identify their own sexual integrity because divine order is blurred. When we loose sight and direction under Gods divine order it brings dysfunction the likes of which homosexuality is only one result with frustrated woman and despairing men heading only for pitiful deaths in terminal relationships or worse still into the spirit of religion that closets and suppresses the deformation taking place deep in the soul realm. This for me can be likened to putting iron shoes on a baby and never removing them as the feet grow…or putting a clean white lace handkerchief over a gaping wide sewerage tank.
Likewise… A man who has a wife who is un submissive, who wants to lead and be the boss is a tormented man, and if not tormented then already defeated. A man who will not lead and a woman who will not submit is a travesty, a contradiction and a formula for disaster.……which is part of Gods plan to show us all that only HIS way can work….only Gods order and design for both man and woman has, does and will ever work……..God’s plan is that we come to discover this through painful sometimes pitiful trials, errors, confusion, illusions, wrong thinking and deceptive idols of the heart.
The world is likewise in gross error right now….and this too is part of Gods plan, ahead of Gods correction, judgement and restoration to His way truth and life. God will, right every wrong and correct every corruption. Every crooked path will be straightened and every rocky place made plane. No iron shoes, no sewerage tanks, no more death blows of crucifixion but resurrection into the victorious life of Jesus Christ, Gods Son not daughter.
But who have believed?………….few even agree!…….and the world resists…......
Peace to you
Arcturus
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I'm going to follow the rules and not debate, this will be my last post.
Just ask your self these questions
- Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
- Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Please receive in Love
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I'm going to follow the rules and not debate, this will be my last post.
Just ask your self these questions
- Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
- Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Please receive in Love
Hi Dustin,
Jesus was the unchallenged leader in His congregation, during His ministry no man or woman was teaching Him.
I was at the Conference as was Kat who answered to this earlier in the thread, everyone received the same amount of love and respect, a woman's viewpoint or question was treated in the very same manner as a man's would be.
At our get together's during the Conference weekend we would fellowship informally between Ray's presentations and in the evenings with each other sometimes in groups that would be entirely made up of one gender or the other and sometimes mixed, there was no controlling authority.
I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
When we are raised in our spiritual uncorruptable bodies and are changed, at that time we will no longer be male or female.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul
1Co 7:29 Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,
or in more modern version
1Co 7:29 Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
and
regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse
Rom 8:9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
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Hi Rocky,
Long time no see, how have you been? It is good to see you here.
In regard to what you wrote above;
Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.
We are only conceived in the spirit as of now, our minds are to put away carnal, fleshly thoughts but we are not transformed into true spiritual beings yet, can any of us here or do you know anyone who fits this description?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We are earnestly awaiting our transformation, we are not there until the resurrection.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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This is a question I've been having for quite a time. Now it has been raised again, although indirectly.
hillsbororiver you state:
Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.
I've long since discovered that divorce is an option:
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (Mat 19:3-9 KJV)
In my bible (Norwegian Bible) there is no good distinction between the words "porneia" (fornication) and "moichao" (adultery). It reads (translated into English) : But I say to you, that the one who separates from his wife, except for reasons of adultery, and marries another woman, commits adultery, and the one who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery. (Mat 19:9)
According to those words there seems to be NO thoughts behind this statement at all. Why would Christ say that the only valid reason for divorcing (or separating) is adultery, but then if you remarry you COMMIT ADULTERY again?
I thought this was the truth until God showed me that the pharisees are tempting Jesus with the question: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for EVERY reason? After all this was the law of Moses:
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.(Deu 24:1-2 KJV)
So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know.
This brings me on to the question (finally):
How should we define when a spouse has become "a stumbling block"?
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I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul
1Co 7:29 Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,
or in more modern version
1Co 7:29 Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
and
regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse
Rom 8:9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
I just find it interesting that the warning re: marriage is to men and not women.
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So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know.
This brings me on to the question (finally):
How should we define when a spouse has become "a stumbling block"?
Hi eggi,
I am wondering how you come to the conclusion, " So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know."
When it is plainly written;
Matthew 5:32 (King James)
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Jesus is saying if you "put away" or divorce your spouse for any reason other than , fornication(adultery,unfaithfulness ) then you are committing adultery and putting others in the position of committing adultery.
It had been a common practice for men to "put away" their faithful wives only because they lost their youthful luster, they were not as pleasing to their eyes as they once had been. That was what He was speaking of, even though it was acceptable under Mosaic Law to divorce for any reason it was admonished against as being displeasing to the Lord in Malachi 2;
Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore?, Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
Mal 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
The ultimate authority on this would be between a believer and the Lord within, how He impresses their concience. There is no one size fits all answer or an earthly authority. If a husband or wife is sleeping around ignoring their responsibilities to the children, the household, the extended family, isn't that being unfaithful? If drugs, gambling, alcohol come before family obligations, is that also being unfaithful?
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
I hope this helps, His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul
1Co 7:29 Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,
or in more modern version
1Co 7:29 Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
and
regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse
Rom 8:9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
I just find it interesting that the warning re: marriage is to men and not women.
Hello again Rocky,
Under Mosaic Law woman had virtually no rights at all, they were almost like livestock.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Since we are on the subject of women teaching, maybe someone could help explain these verses.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Timothy 2:10-12
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
bobby(bob)
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Hi Bobby,
Kat answered this earlier in the thread with a couple of Ray's e-mails,
Hi Dustin,
Here are 2 emails where Ray addressed the subject of women teaching.
Women?
« on: October 15, 2006, 08:29:09 AM »
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Hallow Ray,
I have done all I could but nobody is prepared to answer my question on the above topic. Can you please clarify me on this question?
What is your view point with regards to women teaching in church? Take consideration of the following scriptures:
1. 1 Cor. 14:34.
2. Galatians 3:27-28
Regards,
George
Dear George:
I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34? If it does, the why would Paul have written it?
The answer is quote simple:
"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female." But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?
We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation. However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc. I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority. I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.
God be with you,
Ray
Women Teachers
« on: September 28, 2006, 10:08:01 AM »
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my name is Troy and I am studying women being able to declare God's Truth. If we are all (men and women) being transformed from glory to glory and to become SONS OF GOD through the spirit,being neither male or female ,how then can a believer say a woman in the flesh can't teach. That belief fall under Jewish customs and traditions.
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST." (Gal. 2:27-28). But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female. If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine. Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God" (I Cor. 11:3). This statement is not "custom and tradition.
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam" and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?" "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us: "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:18).
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,
Joe
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yes Joe I did read those emails and I just was having a memory block.
bobby
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Hi Dustin and Bobby,
This might help.
To begin with let me quote you Dustin:
Just ask your self these questions
· Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
· Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Please receive in Love
These are good questions.
To respond:
Firstly lets look at what you what you could mean Dustin and Bobby when you say “church”……and in your case Dustin you ask……….”would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent ‘in the church?’
There are TWO Church’s.
These following excerpts are meant only to point this out. There is a paper that is even more specific about the fact that there are two churches and can be found elsewhere in Ray’s, The Lake of Fire series.
The Lake of Fire - Part XTHE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.
The Lake of Fire - PART VI TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE
………….contrary to popular Christian tradition, Jesus did NOT say that He would build His church upon Peter. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [Greek, petros, a piece of detached stone or rock], and upon THIS ROCK` [Greek, petra {a different kind of rock}, a mass of rock that cannot be moved as in Matt. 7:24 and 27:60, which is distinct from petros which is a smaller detached rock that can be moved] will I built MY CHURCH; and the gates of the unseen [hades] shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Jesus named Simon, "Cephas"(Peter is the Greek translation of Cephas which is Chaldee):
"And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, He said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone" (John 1:42),
that is, a smaller detached stone or rock in contrast to Himself Who is a huge unmovable mass of foundational BEDROCK. See Luke 6:48. The Church of the Living God is build upon CHRIST, not Peter! And so it is upon this SPIRITUAL, unmovable, foundational, bedrock of Jesus Christ that we are to be built into a new spiritual creation.
TAKE HEED HOW YOU BUILD
Constructing a building is a process that requires time and activity. Since God likens the building of His spiritual temple to the assembling of a physical building, then this process, likewise, requires time and activity. Time and activity is what we call living our lives. Now then, when does judgment begin at the building of this house of God? Answer:
"For the time IS COME that judgment must begin at the house of God…" (I Peter 4:17).
And so it clearly has already begun with the Apostles and New Testament Church nearly two thousand years ago. And it is still going on in the Church of God today, in every believer’s life, as he lives his life.
Therefore, Paul warns:
"But let every man take heed HOW he builds [his building’] thereupon" (I Cor. 3:10).
And so judgment is upon the building of God’s house as each individual believer is framed and fitted for the calling that God has for each individual. This judgment began in the days of the Apostles after the resurrection of our Lord. It continued generation after generation down through the age until today when it yet continues. And it will continue still further until the entire harvest of first fruits is completed. Remember we already learned that if we would judge ourselves now, Paul said we would not be condemned with the world later (I Cor. 11:32).
It is while we are living and building that our works are being tried and judged BY FIRE according to HOW we are building. What fire? God’s fire. God’s "CONSUMING [spiritual] FIRE" (Heb. 12:29)! God is SPIRIT and likewise His fire is SPIRIT. ……………….unquote
My Point….There are TWO Churches.
So now… lets review your question Dustin….. Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
Here is how Jesus talked to the women from the Church of Satan.
Luke 23 : 27 And there accompanied Jesus a great multitude of the people, including women who bewailed and lamented Him. 28. But Jesus, turning toward them, said, Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29. For behold, the days are coming during which they will say, Blessed, happy, fortunate, and to be envied are the barren and the wombs that have not borne, and the breasts that have never nursed babies! 30. Then they will begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us! And to the hills, Cover, conceal, hide us! 31. For if they do these things (bewailing and lamenting Him) when the timber is green, (Jesus was only 33 years old ) what will happen when it is dry? (Jesus is risen. He is neither wet nor green behind the ears.) What will He say …Depart from me you cursed, into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels! Matt 25:41
The admonition is to us ALL and not just to you and I to…..Take care how you build YOUR house…..!
But WHO are the Daughters of Jerusalem?
In which Church do they belong? Let’s see …………excerpt quote from
The Lake of Fire - PART VI
JERUSALEM IS FAR WORSE THAN THE VERY WORST
"Yet have you not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, YOU WERE CORRUPTED MORE THAN THEY IN ALL YOUR WAYS. As I live, says the Lord God, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as YOU [Jerusalem] HAVE DONE, you and your daughters" (Verses 47-48).
"Neither has Samaria committed half of your sins; but you have MULTIPLIED YOUR ABOMINATIONS MORE THAN THEY, and have justified your sisters in all YOUR ABOMINATIONS which you have done. You also, which have judged your sisters, bear your own shame for your sins that YOU HAVE COMMITTED MORE ABOMINABLE THAN THEY: they are MORE RIGHTEOUS [imagine God saying that Sodom is ‘more righteous’ than Jerusalem?] than you" (Verse 52).
Unquote…..
Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
If the women were in the Church of Satan….they would NOT be silent….. I believe Jesus would rebuke them in no uncertain terms! Like “Weep for yourselves…bear your own shame for your sins!…..”
If the women were in the Church of Christ, would Jesus silence them….….NO….because .they would be listening…..Luke 10 : 41 ….Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things; 42 There is need of only one, or but a few things, Mary has chosen the good portion, that which is to her advantage, which shall not be taken away from her.
You ask....Does any chrurch or group obey this ……..
There is not one human institution called Church that is obeying Christ or following Him. They are ALL in error and they are ALL CALLED to overcome the error of their ways. They are called to Rev 2 : 5 Remember from what heights they have fallen and repent, change the inner man to meet God’s will and do the works they previously did when they first knew the Lord…..They are called to vs.14. stop holding on to the doctrine of Balaam who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to entice them to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols and to practice lewdness, giving themselves up to sexual vice.(sexual vice here is not literal it is spiritual prostitution of Christ’s intimate and holy teachings adulterated with doctrines, creeds, customs and traditions of man) They are called to…vs 20 stop TOLERANCE OF THE WOMAN JEZEBEL, who calls herself a prophetess, claiming to be inspired and who is TEACHING AND LEADING astray my servants and BEGUILING them into practicing sexual vice and eating food sacrificed to idols. (Food here is not literal. It is food as in commandments of God sacrificed to idols of man) These are the Churches that have a name and to which Jesus says Rev 3 : 1 …I know your record and what you are doing; you are supposed to be alive, but in reality you are dead. These are the Churches that say Rev 3 : 17 I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy and am in need of nothing…These are the Churches who do not realize and understand that they are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. These Churches are called to repent and overcome and to all this Christ says : Rev 3 : 22 He who is able to hear, let him LISTEN to and HEED what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES.
So : Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment…..
No church (as in man made institution) obeys….I believe that the “group” who are like-minded with Christ’s mind, both LISTEN to and HEED the Spirit of God……..but this group is not The Church....
It is a common failing to believe certain doctrines because others do. This is a manifestly fruitful cause of error. Many people have believed and sincerely taught error and many still do. Churches are devoted to teaching error. Acts 26:9 I myself was once persuaded that it was my duty to do many things contrary to and in defiance of the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
As for you, be not mis-led to worship, follow or believe the traditions and creeds of men. 2 Tim 3:15 The Scriptures (not the Churches) are able to make wise unto salvation, through faith, which is in Christ Jesus alone…
You quote: Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
The scriptures do not contradict. Perhaps you will enjoy the Amplified translation : For even the Jews themselves do not really keep the Law, but they want to have you circumcised in order that they may glory in your flesh, your subjection to EXTERNAL RITES….(man made doctrines, false beliefs, ungodly behaviour, passed down man made traditions and customs, contradictions, carnality, idolatry… etc)
Peace to you :)
Arcturus
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Greetings Arturus
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to you.
Layla the quote from Doug holds a theme wherein it causes a few alarm bells to go off in my mind. In particular…. quote:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing…..
For me this sounds the alarm because of what Ray observes that the scriptures do not contradict in:
There is no need for alarm. I think you are misunderstanding what Doug has written. Careful reading will show he is not saying that the scripture is nullified but rather the reasoning of men.
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature. Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Exactly this confirms what Doug is saying. Men perceive a particular scripture and then use that scripture (in their own reasoning) to nullify another scripture. See the above.
2 Cor 6 : 17,18 So, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not any unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor. 18. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (Why not just sons. Why did God create Adam first. Why not Eve first and Adam from her rib? Why was Jesus a man and not a woman? Because there is order.) The absence of order unleashes all kinds of ills, frustrations, pride, hurts and break downs that fall short of Gods divine perfection and will for both man and woman. There is an order. It is a Divine order. It works. It brings peace, harmony, blessing and right standing with God.
Agreed. Neither Doug nor myself are suggesting that women ought to usurp the position of men. It wasn't until I found my rightful place as my husband's helpmeet that my marriage has truly been blessed. But this thread is not about the rightful place for a man and a woman in the flesh, but about whether woman should teach.
Jesus came to fulfil the scriptures and in like fashion we have to test the spirit behind every teaching to see if it contradicts any scripture or worse if it “helps to nullify “ any scripture making bitter what is sweet and sweet what is bitter.…
I can assure your Arturus, I do test the spirit behind every teaching and I would never offer anything here that has not been tested.
Peace,
Layla
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Hi Layla
Your comment : this thread is not about the rightful place for a man and a woman in the flesh, but about whether woman should teach.
and your statement to me : I think you are misunderstanding what Doug has written.
and your "assurance" that : I do test the spirit behind every teaching and I would never offer anything here that has not been tested.
My responce.......
I will comment on this teaching through the transcript with my comments in blue.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence
Greetings To All
The problem of whether a woman should or should not teach or hold a position that reflects anything other than being a silent submissive member is looked upon differently amongst the many different denominations.
Irrelevant. This opening comment camouflages the content of the following teaching by obscuring the fact that the scripture does not lie. Gods word is not made less or more true based on or subject to popularity vote or different interpretations or the many different denominations.
(Like wearing a hat) Within the scriptures we have several women used of God to further His Will on earth.
Incorrect. Here the author mixes up the WILL of God with the PLAN of God.Case in point : Esther. God did not have to use Esther, or the burning bush or a talking donkey to further His WILL on earth. Esther, the burning bush and the donkey were all part of Gods PLAN. God doesn’t use humans, bushes or donkeys to get to His Will. He causes circumstances, He authors circumstances to create His Plan and then humans bushes and donkeys live out that plan. In a e-mail response by Ray FREE WILL he responds, quote “ distinguish between God’s “will”….and God’s “plan” to achieve His “Will”. God’s Will…live righteously….His plan….first live Unrighteously….to be humbled in our utter inability to do God’s perfect will…..repent of our wickedness. Understand….we sin from our hearts, so it is only right and good that we should be punished….. and…. converted into the Image of God’s Son.”
In the OT had Queen Esther not pleaded with the King to reverse his decision
NO….no….no….had Queen Esther not been CAUSED BY GOD to plead with the King….and thereafter had God not CAUSED the King to reverse his decision….is more like it. That the plan of God was written for a woman is secondary to the fact that God wrote and caused His Plan to include both men and women that God wrote from start to finish.
based on the testimony of an evil man, the entire Jewish nation under his command would have put to death. Here Doug puts Queen Esther on the pedestal and not God….because the difference between Gods will and Gods plan is not discerned. This error is what happens when man tries to idolise men or women above God. This error happens when human understanding over looks Gods Sovereignty. This error manifests when human heroes and heroines are given supremacy above Gods Sovereign place
Obviously in this instance the voice of a woman was far better than the words of a man…
.....Since when is the voice of a woman far better than the words of a man?….Is it..…since the man did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Where? Where does scripture say this? Show me one place! Give me the second witness to this man made heresy. Okay okay I hear you….What about Abigail then?…..Again NO…..no. The Scripture is not literal. Abigail submitted to the King. As a result she saved her husband who later died .Does this mean women are superior to men if the man “did not represent God’s will for His chosen people”…Oh…so then women are superior to all Men save Jesus Christ by implication and this is not scritural it is heresy. . Which man or woman REPRESENTS God’s will? There is one Mediator and that is Christ. The birth, life, death and resurrection were all part of God’s Plan in which Jesus Christ was always in Gods Will(sinless and never deviating once from right standing with God) as God’s plan came to pass. God uses HIS PLAN to achieve HIS WILL. This is no less true for Jesus as it is for us. The men and women of Scripture all illustrate God’s plan. [/color]
who did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Who is to say that a woman today should not speak for the Will of God
what heresy is this? Which woman can speak for the Will of God? Oh yes, I know. Jezebel and the Harlot, Mystery Babylon!…when a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will? When a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will then he is still in God’s plan. Pharaoh resisted God’s will. That was God’s plan.
However I believe in strict adherence to the laws for determining truth
TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD"None of the wicked shall understand; but the Wise shall understand" (Daniel 12:10) TRUTH NUMBER 6[A] "…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16). "…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine. Unfortunately, the Church does not follow this truth of God in establishing doctrine. Truth be known, orthodoxy has not even one witness to support any of their doctrines!
and when I look for a second witness that states that a “woman should not teach” I find some problems finding a second witness. Any wonder that problems are encountered? When we look for another scripture that speaks against a woman teaching we find one but it is directed against a woman who is evil and not qualified to teach.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
This verse certainly does nothing to keep a good woman from teaching..
the deduction here is that a “good” woman can teach a man who is not in the Will of God? Where does scripture say this? Show me…..…..
so we need to look further. In the 5th chapter of 1st Timothy we find a lot said about woman in the church not being considered worthy of ministering the things of God. However once again we see that these unqualified woman have grown weak in their faith and “some have already turned aside after Satan”. Once again we are still lacking a reason for a woman of God to be denied the right to teach God’s Word
No. Wrong again. What is lacking is not a reason but the authority and a scripture that gives women rights to usurp man as head and authority just as Christ is Head of His Church. There is no such scripture that says woman has the right to supplant men and become their authority or to teach men. Women can be messengers. John 4 : 16 Jesus said to her “Go, call your husband and come back here.” Mark 16 : 5 and going into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting there on the right side, clothed in a long, stately, sweeping robe of white, and they were utterly amazed and struck with terror. And he said to them…..7 Go your way, tell the disciples and Peter that He goes before you into Galilee. 8. …and they went and said nothing about it to anyone including to any man, for they were afraid. Now Jesus having risen….appeared first to Mary Magdalene…..10. She went and reported it.
I see no teaching in these scriptures that licence woman to lead or teach men. Christ is always the Head as is man the head of the woman.
In 1st Tim 2 there is a reference in verse 13 to Eve who bowed in subjection to Satan just as in the 5th chapter so I question the quality of this woman that is to be silent rather than her gender. Eve is not the woman who represents the church and who is at enmity (an enemy) with Satan. Eve was not at enmity with Satan because she was in compliance with him and was part of the transgression.
Then there is another scripture to consider (amongst others) before one states that a woman is not qualified to teach the scriptures because of her gender. Woman is not qualified to teach the scriptures to men not because of her gender but because of Gods order.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ,….what does IN CHRIST mean to Doug….here is the twist…. it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach…there it is. In Christ for Doug means helping to nullify the scripture that does not licence or permit women to preach!
because it essentially says the same thing.
So in conclusion there are no two witnesses that say a woman who is qualified should not teach,…
this is unscriptural nonsense!
consequently a woman cannot lawfully be denied the pulpit …
.Lawfully? Denied? Now are we to conclude that God has Unlawfully Denied women the right to teach men. Are we to agree with this outrageous conclusion that by implication puts God before the Grand Jury of a man made legal system of evaluation of Gods supreme Sovereignty and WILL. Contrary to one thinking that there are two lawful witnesses that deny woman the right to teach, the scriptures show there is no difference between a man or a woman ….Where? WHERE do the scriptures SHOW there is no difference between a man or a woman….Oh in Christ….Here in lies the error. In Christ does not mean as Christ it means like Christ, not metamorphosised into a genderless thing that then looses identity as a brother or sister, Son or Daughter of God. as they are both of Him…Yes. True. Both male and female we are made and considered equal. ….Yes….equal for we share an inheritance equally, but we are NOT the same. One is the weaker vessel and one is the head over the other as Christ is Head over His Church.
There is one big however though. As Paul says some things may be lawful but are not expedient to pursue and this may apply here in certain circumstances.
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
If a woman preaching is a problem because she is a woman, then she should either preach somewhere else or refrain from doing so where she is. Plus she had might as well go somewhere where she will be appreciated.
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
Now all of the above proves that there is no scriptural mandate against woman teaching or holding positions of authority in the church
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
because of the lack of witnesses in the scriptures. However since on the surface (and for the unlearned) there appears to be so, we need to consider why this is so. Once again I urge you to look deeper and consider the spirit/ soul implication that is at the heart of the message seemingly indicating that woman should be forbidden to teach.
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
God is Spirit. His word is spirit and we need to stop thinking in the natural if we are to move forward in our understanding. With all the spiritual references in the Bible it amazes me that “qualified teachers” look for everything in the natural. Man is a spirit (aka image of God) within an earth suit and when he is given a soul (spiritual body) in the likeness of God, then God’s purpose for His Creation will be complete and the “Mystery of Godliness” will have been fulfilled within man.
Peace and Blessings
Doug.
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Hi Rocky,
Long time no see, how have you been? It is good to see you here.
In regard to what you wrote above;
Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.
We are only conceived in the spirit as of now, our minds are to put away carnal, fleshly thoughts but we are not transformed into true spiritual beings yet, can any of us here or do you know anyone who fits this description?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We are earnestly awaiting our transformation, we are not there until the resurrection.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Joe,
I'm not sure what you are saying here. ???
That entire passage is about being born of the spirit, being born again. Do you think that Jesus was saying that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in this body of flesh? That we must first die PHYSICALLY?
Don't we either walk in the flesh OR walk in the spirit?
Here are some of the preceding verses in that chapter. Is Jesus telling Nicodemus about something that is NOT going to happen until after he dies physically? It seems very clear to me that Nicodemus understood that this must happen while in the flesh. Why else would he have wondered about it? Why would he have asked about re-entering the womb of our mothers? And if he was just misunderstanding what Jesus was saying then why didn't Jesus correct him by simply telling that this would NOT be accomplished while in the flesh?
Joh 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit[/b].
If you are saying that we must DIE PHYSICALLY in order to be born again (of the spirit) then you are saying that none of us can see the kingdom of God, for we MUST be BORN AGAIN in order to see the kingdom of God.
You seem to believe that that last verse is talking about us (physically). Am I misunderstanding?
To me, it tells us HOW we are "born again" (BY THE SPIRIT).
I don't think the translator worded it right or clearly enough.
Look at the words:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so [houtōin; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows)] is [esti; is] every one [pas; all, any, every, the whole] that is born [gennaō; to procreate] of the Spirit.
It seems clear to me that this verse is talking about the spirit and HOW we are born again… not the condition that we are in physically (as in invisible spirits) when we are born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell when it cometh, and whither it goeth: IN THIS WAY is everyone BORN OF THE SPIRIT.
It is BY THE SPIRIT that we are "born again" or "born of the spirit".
Are you are saying that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in the flesh? And is that what Ray teaches and believes?
That seems very foreign to me and to what Jesus was saying (as I understand it) and to what the scriptures tell us about the flesh vs the spirit and the inner man vs the outer man, etc. My goodness, that just does not sit right with my spirit or with how I understand the word of God.
Sin is condemned in the flesh; as he is so are we IN THIS WORLD; His spirit quickens our MORTAL bodies; etc, etc, etc. Christ came to give us LIFE. The ONLY way we can have that LIFE is to be baptized into his DEATH (NOW) and be "born again" of the spirit.
So to say that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in this flesh, that that doesn’t happen until after we die, seems to go completely against the word of God and the entire POINT that Christ was making, not to mention the words of Paul and the other disciples.
As Rocky said (and as I also understand it), we are NOT in the flesh but in the spirit IF the spirit of God dwells in us; those "in the flesh" CANNOT PLEASE GOD. So are you sure you want to insist that we ARE "still in the flesh" just because we still have this body of death (as Paul called it)? Is that hearing what the SPIRIT is saying to those who are WALKING IN THE SPIRIT?
Rom 8:1-15 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (so are we still in the flesh?) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (no! not if the spirit of God dwells in us. Isn't that what this says?) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
We cannot cry ABBA, FATHER except through the SPIRIT of the SON that is IN US. Are you saying that we cannot and do not do that while in the flesh?
We must pass from death unto life, right? Do we not do that until after we die? That cannot be.
But so to not get too far off topic, since the topic is women and teaching... how might this (being in the flesh vs in the spirit) relate to what Paul said about husbands and wives (not simply men and women):
Paul very clearly said that he was talking about Christ and the church (not husbands and wives after the flesh), didn't he?
Eph 5:32-33 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband[/u].
Paul was not addressing men and women after the flesh; if he was, then who is the single woman or the widowed woman "subject" to?
Paul was using the marriage relationship that was established by God in the beginning to show us THE SPIRITUAL TRUTH BEHIND IT. Adam (male) was formed FIRST, THEN Eve (female - from Adam) and then they were JOINED TOGETHER and made ONE FLESH.
CHRIST FIRST, THEN the CHURCH; the HEAD FIRST, THEN the BODY.
Those who are still "in the flesh", minding the things of the flesh may have only been able to hear what Paul was saying in terms of the FLESH (applying it to husbands and wives after the flesh), but aren't we supposed to be able to discern what the SPIRIT of the Word is? Christ said that HIS WORDS are SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
IF the SPIRIT of God dwells IN US and we are born "of the spirit"... then are we still "in the flesh"? (Paul says no.) Are we still "male and female" or are we ONE FLESH?
Is God a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS? Or is man?
Are we (even though male and female after the flesh) not joined together as ONE FLESH; ONE BODY with ONE HEAD through the SPIRIT?
So are we now to look at these verses after the flesh (husbands and wives)? rather than after the spirit (Christ and the church)? To say that we are "still in the flesh"?
I pray (God willing) I am NOT still in the flesh to mind the things of the flesh.
If the spirit of God dwells IN ME, then it is not "me" (whether I be male or female after the flesh) who speaks but it is the WORD OF GOD that is IN ME that speaks; it is the SON doing THE WILL OF THE FATHER who is SPEAKING (AND DOING).
Even MEN are the BRIDE (female) of Christ and WOMEN are still SONS (male) of God.
Can we not see that MEN AND WOMEN (after the flesh) fall into BOTH of these categories?
I will be extremely shocked if you tell me that neither you nor Ray (nor most of those here) believes that we are born again until after we die. I have been readling here for a long time and I never realized that to be the case, if it is.
athisfeet
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Hello Athisfeet
Please excuse and forgive me jumping in ahead here Joe.....Africa time :D
Athisfeet, Joe wrote in a thread discussion : in the world as men and woman, in the church as brothers and sisters, in His Kingdom as Sons and Daughters. Each step closer, as we grow in our One on one journey with Him together.
I know you have addressed your post to Joe.....I only hope this insight he has already shared helps clear up things a little before Joe replys to you too.
We either do not understand, or we do not believe or we do not agree. We need to know where we stand. And we can only know with God's help. We can only come out of not understanding, disbelief and disagreement by God dragging us away from what we have learnt in Mystery Babylon.
Mercy Grace and unmerited favour to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus,
I don’t think I understand what you are saying. I am assuming that you are addressing being “born again”? (If not, then please correct me.)
What do you understand Joe to be saying in that quote, that we are not “sons and daughters” now? We are only “brothers and sisters”?
How is that supported scripturally?
What does “in His kingdom” mean to you? Is that something that doesn’t happen until after we die physically? Are we not “in His kingdom” until then? How does that relate to the fact that the kingdom of God is within?
Jesus said that we MUST BE “born again” in order to see the kingdom of God. What I gathered was that Joe was saying that we are NOT YET “born again” (or “born of the spirit”) and we WILL NEVER BE (while in the flesh) because we are not like the wind (invisible, coming and going, etc).
If that is what he is saying and that is in alignment with what is taught by Ray then what does that mean? That we cannot “see” the kingdom of God? And that we won’t be able to see the kingdom of God until after we die? Because that is when we are "born again"?
I have a really hard time believing that that is what Jesus meant by being “born again”, of being “born of the spirit”.
Aren’t we “born of the spirit” BY THE SPIRIT that dwells IN US?
How does saying that we aren't born again while in the flesh line up with what Peter said about being “born again”?
1Pe 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Was Peter talking about something that happens after we physically die? It is my understanding that Peter is saying that if we love one another with a pure heart, we ARE “born again”. Born of the spirit, by the word of God (that incorruptible seed) that is in us? Do you understand these verses differently?
I’m sorry, but I must still be missing something here because I don’t see how we wait until after we die (physically) to be born again. Neither do I see that that is how Jesus, Peter or Paul (or anyone else) applied those words.
If we are not NOW “sons” of God then how is it that “as he is so are we IN THIS WORLD”. How does his spirit quicken our MORTAL BODIES if we are not “quickened” while IN THEM? If Paul said: “Ye are NOT IN THE FLESH if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you”, then are we “still in the flesh”? At the very same time he also said that “THOSE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD”.
I understand what it means to be carnally MINDED or spiritually MINDED, but that doesn’t address everything that Paul said and what other verses of scripture tell us and what I quoted above from Peter that says that we ARE “born again” (even now).
Christ said that his words are to SPIRITUALLY discerned. Doesn’t that include Paul’s words and Peter’s (etc)?
If those "in the flesh" cannot please God then we say “we are no longer in the flesh but in the spirit" (mentally), but when it comes to being “born again” or “born of the spirit” we say that we can't be (yet) because we are "still in the flesh" (physically) and not like the wind??
What about what Peter said then? Why are we applying the word differently under different circumstances? That doesn't seem consistent (or right) to me.
If Christ’s words are SPIRIT and they are to be SPIRITUALLY discerned then why would we ever look at them in relation to the (physical) flesh?
Physically we are still in the flesh, yes. What does that mean if “the flesh profits nothing”? Spiritually speaking, we are NOT in the flesh… so, again, please help me understand why we are to be looking at the flesh to be applying these words NATURALLY instead of SPIRITUALLY?
Is that “rightly dividing” the word?
And if Paul said that he was speaking about Christ and the church (in talking about wives being subject to their husbands) then why do WE want to apply those words NATURALLY to “husbands and wives” after the flesh?
I’m not trying to argue; I’m just trying to understand. In ALL that I have read of Ray’s I never understood him to say that we are not born again until after we physically die. So if that is what he believes then that is new information to me. I either missed it or misunderstood what he was saying or meaning. But I don’t recall ever reading anything that said that.
To say that we are not "born again" until after we physically die goes against what I believe and what I believe Jesus was telling Nicodemus and against what Peter said (as I understand it) and what Paul taught (again, as I understand it).
This is not something that I learned "in Babylon". I never even understood or used the term "born again" when I was still going to "church".
I am saying that it was always my understanding that Ray taught that we are "born again" BY THE SPIRIT, by CHRIST IN YOU. So if that is not so, then I misunderstood some of what Ray is teaching. But that being said doesn't change my mind. As it still seems perfectly clear to me that what I THOUGHT Ray believed and was teaching is the "truth" (so far as it has been given to me by God). I believe that we are "born of the spirit" BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN US and that this happens while we are "still in the flesh" (naturally speaking)... based on all of the scriptures that I posted and referenced (and many many more)
But I do appreciate your reply. :D
athisfeet
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Hi athisfeet,
I found this in Ray's emails.
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Resurrection
« on: September 12, 2006, 11:12:27 AM »
> Hi Ray, quick question. Im struggling with the first resurrection. I hear so
> many conflicting ideas. Is it a spiritual resurrection, as in to be born again,
> Or is it only when Christ returns.
>
> Wesley
Dear Wesley:
When all else fails read and believe the Scriptures:
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:42-45)
When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."
Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above." In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born." Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom: "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
I covered this in our Mobile Bible Conference last week. You should have been there.
God be with you,
Ray
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You can find the audio for the Mobile Bible Conference at 'Introductions and Announcements'.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hello Kat:
I am not saying that the natural is the spiritual. That was my whole point. That we must look at these things SPIRITUALLY. We can be "in the flesh (naturally) and yet "not in the flesh" (spiritually).
We do not have to "take off" the flesh to "put on" the spirit do we? Isn't that the point that Paul was making when he said that we do NOT desire to be UNCLOTHED, but to be CLOTHED UPON?
Only Christ is IMMORTAL and INCORRUPTIBLE, so when we are clothed (by/with Christ) doesn't this mortal "put on" immortality and this corruption "put on" incorruption? Isn't that how we are "raised" to LIFE? Baptized into Christ's DEATH and resurrected into his LIFE? Maybe I am looking at those verses differntly from you (and Ray)? But I try to look at ALL of the scriptures spiritually and not naturally. Isn't that what we are supposed to do? I thought that was what Ray taught, that the scriptures are to be spiritually discerned?
For example, Christ defined the “dead” as those who “have no life in them” (those not partaking of HIS flesh and HIS blood), right? So now when I read the scriptures that talk about the “dead”, I try to keep that in mind and apply those verses spiritually, rather than naturally, to see what I can garner from a spiritual perspective.
Isn’t it that we understand the things that are not seen (spiritual) by looking at the things that are seen (natural)?
So in the OT when it says "the dead know not anything", we can look at that after the flesh (which is the only way that some will ever look at it) and say that those who are physically dead and buried in a physical grave of dirt "know not anything". But isn't there a spiritual application that is much more important and much more relevant (spiritually)? Isn't it true that "the (spiritually) dead know not anything"? See what I mean?
This "body" (which Paul called a body of death) is likened to a "grave"; the Pharisees were "full of dead men's bones", the throat is an “open sepulcher”….etc, etc. That is what I mean by “rightly dividing” the word (and I thought that was what Ray meant as well… looking at the word of God spiritually and not naturally (“after the flesh”). Maybe I am wrong and I am going about this the wrong way, but it sure has opened up a lot of things to me spiritually that I never could see or understand before.
But this is getting off topic as the thread was really about women teaching, though I think this is related to the topic of men and women (or husbands and wives) as I think that maybe that relationship and what Paul was speaking about is being misunderstood because we are not rightly dividing the word and applying it spiritually (to Christ and the church, as Paul said)… but I guess it really doesn’t matter if Ray teaches that we are “still in the flesh” when it comes to the topic of husbands and wives and "male and female" and that is how everyone else here sees it as well.
I shouldn't have even said anything. I was just caught off-guard at the thought that we are not "born again" until after we physically die. As I said that was NEW to me, as I did not (before) understand that to be Ray's position. I still believe that is wrong (based on the undersatnding that has been given to me), but I'll just go back to keeping my mouth shut now before I get myself in trouble here or I am accused of trying to cause division. That was not my intention.
Thanks,
athisfeet :-X
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Hi Arcturus
I will respond to this post of yours, but after that you may have the last word because what I see here is troubling to me. You say you do not wish to debate, but the fact is this response of yours as was the other speaks the exact opposite. You have not stated, so I can only assume, that you are of the belief that woman should not teach in church. May I ask you what your belief of church is? Is it not the gathering of the saints? Then I must ask you, being a woman, how do you view your over 200 posts made here? Is it that you prefer to believe that in your posts you are not teaching or is it that you prefer to believe that the gathering of the saints here is not "church" or do you just belief the law but disregard it?
The problem of whether a woman should or should not teach or hold a position that reflects anything other than being a silent submissive member is looked upon differently amongst the many different denominations.
Irrelevant. This opening comment camouflages the content of the following teaching by obscuring the fact that the scripture does not lie. Gods word is not made less or more true based on or subject to popularity vote or different interpretations or the many different denominations.
On what basis do you see his comments camouflaging the content by obscuring the fact that scripture does not lie? His comments are based upon the very fact that the scriptures are truth and that the scriptures (by law) provide for two or three witnesses. You are setting up a straw man (for what purpose I do not know) by suggesting that his comments declare that God's word is made true subject to a popularity vote, because he has not suggested such a thing, but rather is stating a fact that should be acknowledged so that all of what man says is disregarded in favor of the scriptures.
(Like wearing a hat) Within the scriptures we have several women used of God to further His Will on earth.
Incorrect. Here the author mixes up the WILL of God with the PLAN of God.Case in point : Esther. God did not have to use Esther, or the burning bush or a talking donkey to further His WILL on earth. Esther, the burning bush and the donkey were all part of Gods PLAN. God doesn’t use humans, bushes or donkeys to get to His Will. He causes circumstances, He authors circumstances to create His Plan and then humans bushes and donkeys live out that plan. In a e-mail response by Ray FREE WILL he responds, quote “ distinguish between God’s “will”….and God’s “plan” to achieve His “Will”. God’s Will…live righteously….His plan….first live Unrighteously….to be humbled in our utter inability to do God’s perfect will…..repent of our wickedness. Understand….we sin from our hearts, so it is only right and good that we should be punished….. and…. converted into the Image of God’s Son.”
This sounds like nitpicking to me....hence my observation that you are looking to debate. While I have read Ray's work and I agree with what Ray states, the fact is that God's Plan is not outside of His Will.
In the OT had Queen Esther not pleaded with the King to reverse his decision
NO….no….no….had Queen Esther not been CAUSED BY GOD to plead with the King….and thereafter had God not CAUSED the King to reverse his decision….is more like it. That the plan of God was written for a woman is secondary to the fact that God wrote and caused His Plan to include both men and women that God wrote from start to finish.
based on the testimony of an evil man, the entire Jewish nation under his command would have put to death. Here Doug puts Queen Esther on the pedestal and not God….because the difference between Gods will and Gods plan is not discerned. This error is what happens when man tries to idolise men or women above God. This error happens when human understanding over looks Gods Sovereignty. This error manifests when human heroes and heroines are given supremacy above Gods Sovereign place
Again you are setting up a straw man by suggesting that his comments are stating that "human heroes and heroines are given supremacy above Gods Sovereign place." Esther was being divinely guided that is "understood".
This writing was given at a board where there are no babes drinking milk Arturus and thus simple statements like the above are not going to be trampled and twisted upon like you have done, whether you are aware of it or not. I have learned something though, that it is best to leave the more learned comments I am given with the more learned and not share them with those who would wrestle and twist them to their own demise.
Obviously in this instance the voice of a woman was far better than the words of a man…
.....Since when is the voice of a woman far better than the words of a man?….Is it..…since the man did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Where? Where does scripture say this? Show me one place! Give me the second witness to this man made heresy.
Again, another twist and another straw man. The comment does not say that the voice of a woman is far better than the words of man. What is stated is "in this instance."
who did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Who is to say that a woman today should not speak for the Will of God
what heresy is this? Which woman can speak for the Will of God? Oh yes, I know. Jezebel and the Harlot, Mystery Babylon!…when a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will? When a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will then he is still in God’s plan. Pharaoh resisted God’s will. That was God’s plan.
You have split this sentence into half and then proceeded to trample it. I have to tell you that I know that I have offered something worthwhile and hopefully some here have taken the time to "chew the cud" as opposed to receiving it as would swine who trample their food prior to eating it. Frankly, I think I've had enough of reading your response. I don't know if you know how offensive your response to me is. I have prayed and it is only by the grace of God that you have not caused me to sin. I think you ought to consider your words more carefully when responding to someone Arturus.
Peace,
Layla
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Hi athisfeet - I do not think you are trying to cause division. I understand it as you do, but I would like to make it clear that I do not believe that we have or anyone has yet come into the fullness of Christ (joint heirs) and this is what I believe Joe was referring to.
Peace,
Layla
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Hi athisfeet,
I wanted to answer you because I feel that we can come to agreement on this.
I will give the scripture that shown me what I have come to believe.
Only Christ is IMMORTAL and INCORRUPTIBLE, so when we are clothed (by/with Christ) doesn't this mortal "put on" immortality and this corruption "put on" incorruption? Isn't that how we are "raised" to LIFE? Baptized into Christ's DEATH and resurrected into his LIFE?
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
This scripture is about Christ's return, we become imperishable and immortal when we are changed and are raised up from sleep. I believe this sleep is referring to death as Jesus referred to about Lazarus.
Joh 11:11 He said these things; and after that He said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps. But I go so that I may awaken him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then His disciples said, Lord, if he sleeps, he will get well.
Joh 11:13 But Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He had spoken of taking rest in sleep.
I hope you can understand why I believe this now.
If you would like to discuss other points, that would be good,
but only if you so desire.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hello Layla,
What you said is true.
Hello Kat,
Very good post, I don't need to add a thing.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
PS For clarification the quote I was referring to in regard to Layla is in bold below;
I would like to make it clear that I do not believe that we have or anyone has yet come into the fullness of Christ (joint heirs) and this is what I believe Joe was referring to.
Peace,
Layla
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Hello Layla
What an encouraging, edification!….. Now I see the light!……
…. as you say “only by the grace of God that you have not caused me to sin. “ By implication you say I am the tempter and your cause to sin! Give me a break. I take no responsibility for your sins. I did not cause them and will not stand in the way of them.
Your post to me is sinful…..it is my first boarder line hate mail. Only boarder line mind you because as you say, by the grace of God you were prevented.
You say that I said I do not wish to debate. Where? Where did I say that?…Come let us reason together.
The cud you hope others have chewed is not worth chewing on because it is not food. It is heresy the content of which is a very pure form and very high grade. Enough to addict anyone and carry them off into seemingly wise sounding instruction which is in fact only a man made fiction. Rightly did Paul write…”in latter times some will turn away from the faith, giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach.” 1 Tim 4 : 1
You did not get the message the first time or the second time. Hope this third time you will get it.
You haven’t a clue that the scripture does not licence, authorise or ordain women as mans authority or to teach men. Give me one scripture that says woman can teach, lead and instruct men. You can’t, because there isn’t one.
Does this mean that Deborah was not asked by Barak to go with him or he would not go into battle and subsequent victory? No. Does this not mean that a woman threw a rock out of a window and onto the head of a man and he was shamed to death. No it doesn’t. Does this mean that it was a sin to nail a mans head to the ground and kill him by driving a tent peg through his temples? No it doesn’t.
All you are basing your opinions and grievances on is birthed out of your addiction to man made heresy. The post you brought into the Forum dressed up in sheep’s clothing written by Doug, is a crock. It violates the scripture in multiple ways. You call it food to chew as cud. I call it poison to spit out that deserves the tent peg, the crushing rock and certainly not to be lead into victory. Who is your King Layla?…Doug or Christ?
Layla, can you see the difference between what is RELATIVE and what is ABSOLUTE. Look at the scriptures on Deborah a prophetess and Barak. The entire Catholic Church is likewise deceived into putting Mary the Mother of God onto Gods throne and reducing Christ into the same picture as the infant. Christ…the all mighty Son of the One and only true and living God! Barak made his obedience conditional upon Deborah going with him. By alignment with the woman he lost the victory that was at first said would be given into his own hands by God. Judges 4 By making his obedience to the command of the Lord that Deborah was sent to remind him of, by making his obedience lean on Deborah as provisional and dependent upon her presence, this showed God a real back hand. Was not God enough? Was a woman to be the means by which Barak was to receive his confidence? Barak as much said it was! If you come I will go. If you won’t then I will disobey God and ignore your message reminder of Gods command to me.
The result, God took the victory that He had set aside for Barak ( FOR OUR ADMONITION!) and gave it into the hands of the woman.
Brothers and Sons of God be warned…. That is what happens when a man will not lead. This is what happens when a man will lead only provisionally, conditionally and subsequently only upon the woman presence of a woman. This is the MESSAGE….the ORACLE….don’t follow me. Check the data. Do your homework. Do your research. This is not happy hour!
Ref LOF Adam and Eve. ….The woman you gave me to be with…..and Adam ate the apple! …..And God said…because you listened to your Wife…..
The message here….Men you are the head. The Sovereignty of Christ is your crown not your wife, girlfriend, sister or daughter. Stand alone men. Don’t compromise. The message is clear. Love your wives yes but be the head, and receive your crowns….The King of glory is your Sovereign God. This is not a distinction given to women directly but through you men indirectly. You as men are the head of the woman. As God the Father is to Christ the Son, as Christ the Son is to man and His Church and as man is to be to his wife. Anything less is a two headed beast. This is not God’s call or Will. If you men disobey you will loose your reward. The lentil soup on offer here smells good. Don’t trust it. It will steal your victory and by default a woman could lead you into defeat again through seduction, via half truths and false teaching.
What I bring here is not a teaching it is a Message it is a warning. It is not a drive for a following. Let those who have ears hear and if you do hear and if you do see you need not follow me. You will know from whom I am sent and you will hear His call to each of you male and female to follow His voice alone.
I seek no following. I look for no agreements. I only say what I see.
Women hear this you who are called to be sisters and Daughters of God and true to the faith. Here is the message. A defeated man is a hollow victory for a true woman. A compromised man is a disgrace to womanhood. A deceived man is an anathema to the crown of God.
My brothers continue in your call to your faith as the Sons of God. The roaring lion that is seeking to devour and his wolves are the brigand teachings that come in to scatter the true sheep and to take hostage the little ones. Our Shepherd is Christ and His Spirit is true. Not one will be snatched away…NO not one!….We are written into the palms of His hands and we obey and bow to the word of God. Praise be to His SON our King of Glory who’s Spirit is the leadership through His appointed Sons and messengers.
How awesome the power of God and of truth. Just a few scriptures to make the bandits high tail out of here! What cowards are they that bridle and saddle some of our members to bring in toxic waste as a Terrorist who would seduce a passenger to take a radio on board an air craft that will blow up in mid flight.
I for one will not fly with such a passenger who is seduced into a love affair with a terrorist. As much as I care for the passenger destined to the same inheritance with Christ, I will not pretend that the cargo carried by such, is not lethal. It is lethal. Drop the radio and come away Layla. The radio you wish to keep on board this flight to Christ is not broadcasting the correct teachings. Throw it out and stay on board.
It was for Adam to choose to follow his wife into death. We women must not lead our men into another error. If we see a man not taking up his place in the body of Christ we should not be willing to take his lost prize by default. This is our real test of faith and love. It is a test that does not call us out to teach or preach. It is a test that fell to Abigail who sought to protect her husband from his foolishness by giving her submission to her King. Her action saved her husband from the King David’s plan to crush him for his arrogance. I am not saying that some men are not arrogant and that some men are not fools. Some men, some theologians and some preachers clearly fit into either one or all, and some of these categories.
My message to women is do not try to usurp the man. Pray to the King. If you see a man or a doctrine of man, or your husband or brother or boy friend or fiancé teaching and preaching and believing in error and going down hill into his folly and foolishness, do not do as Jezebel, do as Abigail. Pray to our King and follow and submit accordingly. May our brothers and Sons of God pray for our victory in this our test of faith that is upon all women, sisters and Daughters of God.
And to those men or women who perhaps feel preached at or edified by a woman…God forgive me for speaking out …calling it as see it … unlike those women who were afraid to speak and were over ruled by Christ who sent Mary Magdalene because they were too afraid…
I am not afraid. I believe God has appointed a time and place for men. It is not the place appointed to women. Our place is to pass the test of faith in Christ, encourage our men through that faith and to submit to God in His Wisdom.
Men pray for us mere women as we falter and stumble in our pathetic attempts to equal you and cat fight one another for your position of Divine authority. Forgive us. Encourage us in our submission and do not lead us into equality!
My sisters….we are Daughters of God only as we give leave and yield to His Divine order. Our knees too are going to bend.
To this message I have been given leave and the privilege to so speak!
Layla, if after this you still do not get the message….then as per your first line of your post to me quote:
I will respond to this post of yours, but after that you may have the last word…..
If this be the last word….then rather Mercy, Grace and unmerited favour be to you the last word…
Arcturus.
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His beacon of light through this storm...
Thank you Kat
Arcturus :)
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But so to not get too far off topic, since the topic is women and teaching... how might this (being in the flesh vs in the spirit) relate to what Paul said about husbands and wives (not simply men and women):
Paul very clearly said that he was talking about Christ and the church (not husbands and wives after the flesh), didn't he?
Eph 5:32-33 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Paul was not addressing men and women after the flesh; if he was, then who is the single woman or the widowed woman "subject" to?
Paul was using the marriage relationship that was established by God in the beginning to show us THE SPIRITUAL TRUTH BEHIND IT. Adam (male) was formed FIRST, THEN Eve (female - from Adam) and then they were JOINED TOGETHER and made ONE FLESH.
CHRIST FIRST, THEN the CHURCH; the HEAD FIRST, THEN the BODY.
Those who are still "in the flesh", minding the things of the flesh may have only been able to hear what Paul was saying in terms of the FLESH (applying it to husbands and wives after the flesh), but aren't we supposed to be able to discern what the SPIRIT of the Word is? Christ said that HIS WORDS are SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
IF the SPIRIT of God dwells IN US and we are born "of the spirit"... then are we still "in the flesh"? (Paul says no.) Are we still "male and female" or are we ONE FLESH?
Is God a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS? Or is man?
Are we (even though male and female after the flesh) not joined together as ONE FLESH; ONE BODY with ONE HEAD through the SPIRIT?
So are we now to look at these verses after the flesh (husbands and wives)? rather than after the spirit (Christ and the church)? To say that we are "still in the flesh"?
I pray (God willing) I am NOT still in the flesh to mind the things of the flesh.
If the spirit of God dwells IN ME, then it is not "me" (whether I be male or female after the flesh) who speaks but it is the WORD OF GOD that is IN ME that speaks; it is the SON doing THE WILL OF THE FATHER who is SPEAKING (AND DOING).
Even MEN are the BRIDE (female) of Christ and WOMEN are still SONS (male) of God.
Thank you athisfeet for bringing forth what I was unable to.
Peace,
Layla
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To be perfectly honest I really do not know why this particular subject has become so critical, I mean how many women here plan on leading their own congregation? This seems to me to be one of those issues that really affects very few while fostering contention in the Body of Christ. Using the Forum as an example, do the women here feel they are being ignored? That their observations or questions are treated as second rate? Dear Sisters are you being demeaned or made to feel unimportant?
I would think that the God who created us knows us better than we know ourselves, does He make proclaimations just for sport? Can't anyone understand a couple of reasons just why He might have given us direction that our carnal minds, even our spiritual minds do not fully comprehend, is that where faith comes in? Are (the Body of Christ) we all really the same in every way, He makes no distinctions, really? 1 Corinthians 12 has a different take, here are a few verses;
1 Cor 12 (Amplified)
12For just as the body is a unity and yet has many parts, and all the parts, though many, form [only] one body, so it is with Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
13For by means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one limb or organ but of many.
15If the foot should say, Because I am not the hand, I do not belong to the body, would it be therefore not [a part] of the body?
16If the ear should say, Because I am not the eye, I do not belong to the body, would it be therefore not [a part] of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where [would be the sense of] hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where [would be the sense of] smell?
18But as it is, God has placed and arranged the limbs and organs in the body, each [particular one] of them, just as He wished and saw fit and with the best adaptation.
(read the whole Chapter)
It is a constant battle between our carnal nature and our spiritual nature, overcoming traditions or even politically correct doctrines that seem right but we must do interpretational somersaults to make them fit what is plainly written in scripture. So we are now all mature in spirit?
If we use this train of thought to its conclusion are men and woman who consider themselves "full in spirit" no longer in need of observing gender? Should there be contention about who is to lead the family? How does that work if the husband is not a believer? Does this mean same sex marriage is now approved by the Lord? Are we to believe that we are now in a realm which puts us on a par with our head (Christ)? Are we to believe that since there is neither male nor female (at this very time), that we are at this very moment in a spiritual realm which needs no hierarchy?
So now that we are "no longer in the flesh" we are able to dismiss scriptural admonishment?
1 Corinthians 14 (Amplified Bible)
34The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says
35But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church].
36What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you?
37If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.
38But if anyone disregards or does not recognize that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not].
There is an ongoing effort within many denominations to justify their rejection of Paul's statement that the things he writes are the commandments of the Lord, claims are made that since Christ is "the fullness of the Godhead bodily," and since we are "in Christ," that we, too, are "the fullness of the Spirit " and now we can go beyond scripture and into "the deeper things" of the spirit.' The "deeper things of the spirit" of course means that Paul's Words about women are now nothing but anachronisms which were only valid at the time of the early church.
It is this type of supposition that leads to denying that Paul's words are "the commandments of the Lord." Is it any different than saying we are in no need of Paul's admonision that "The words that I speak unto you are spirit." How does this jibe with "my words will never pass away." This train of thought denies that Christ is His Word and Is, Was, And Will Be true. This is the exact (manmade) logic that led to the ordination of a woman to be the head of the Episcopal church at the National Cathedral. Are we to follow Babylon's lead in matters such as this? Does anyone here really believe that we are in the fullness of His Spirit, we are complete Spiritual beings, incorruptable? Anyone who can make the claim that the following has culminated in any one of us please put your response to this verse and how you fulfill it.
Ephesians 4 (Amplified Bible)
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of [c]unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.
The order was established very early and it is stated that this is how it should be until we return to dust, it will change at the resurrection, when we are incorruptable.
Genesis 3 (Amplified Bible)
(Was there a lesson in the Garden when Eve did not consult Adam in regard to eating the fruit, was there a lesson in Adam going along with Eve because his love for her was very strong, she satisfied his desires?)
16To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and craving will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.
17And to Adam He said, Because you have listened and given heed to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it, the ground is under a curse because of you; in sorrow and toil shall you eat [of the fruits] of it all the days of your life.
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return.
Isaiah 3 (Amplified Bible)
12As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, your leaders cause you to err, and they confuse (destroy and swallow up) the course of your paths.
I could go on and on here but those who are convinced otherwise will not readily change their minds anyway no matter how long this goes on, it was not long ago when I too believed this to be just applicable to the early church. The reason I wrote this was not to change anyone (only He can) but to give some scriptural references to those who have yet to form an opinion who have been observing this thread without comment and would like some scriptures to search.
It is always a good principle not to attempt to void a clear and direct scripture with a more mystical or obscure one, it is better to try to unlock the more mystifying with the clear and direct Word.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
P.S. This will be my last post on this thread
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Very good Joe!
bobby
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Hi,
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1Co 14:34 KJV)
I always wondered what law Paul was talking about here.
-anyone know?
judie h.
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This horse has been beat enough.
Warning, read the forum rules before posting. This thread has crossed the boundry.
Craig