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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Craig on March 29, 2006, 09:44:59 AM
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Jennie posted this to me privately, but I thought the group would be nice and answer her.
Craig
I decided to ask my question in a private message instead of the general area. I don't want to be guilty of causing anyone a problem. Here is my confusion: As you know when I first came here I shared my story and told the board that I do attend church and am married to a minister.
I read a lot about Babylon and wolves in sheep clothing.
I am sure you know, based on what I have written, that our church is not the typical denominational church. We have pretty much been ostracized by other Christians and churches in our area because we just don't fit in. Our thing is more to do our best to follow Jesus and reach out to those in need that cross our path. We arn't about money and all of us are probably in or near the national poverty level. I say that not as a complaint because we have what we need so we use what we have above that to anyone who needs it.
I guess I get confused when I read things against the church I automatically think it is talking about our little group. Maybe what is meant is more about the mega-church, mega-money organizations.
Can you help me understand? Thank you so much for your time.
Jennie
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Its never so much about the people Jennie, its more about what people beleive. If their belief is one of extortion, deceit and false doctrines (even if they arent aware of it being false) then this is not good and the church is to blame. That is the world of Christendom
Church is a representative of "Christendom", not individual churches necessarily, but Christendom as a whole. Church a physical symbol and is used generically.
All (or most) who write on this forum have read and studied church history, hebrew and greek scriptures.
What we have studied and beleive is 95% different to what the church (Christendom) beleives, as a whole, and thats because the Church (Christendom) holds many doctrines that are not in scripture or are of pagan origin. These doctrines are held together by something called tradition and traditions of men is not what beleiving in God is about, we beleive.
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Hello Jennie,
Some people are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom just as some people think every arab they see is a terrorist. I don't know what the statistics are but I would guess that only a small percentage believe the concepts shared in BT
My understanding of the specific major differences can catagorized for the most part by the following areas:
Belief in an eternal punishment
Belief in universal salvation
Free will
Trinity
I hope I got that right. This is my opinion and it is not my intention to speak for Ray or Mike .
There seems to be a bit of paranoia about wolves so I hope that I have not said anything that would be constued as such.
I hope that helps.
feat
Edited first sentence to remove reference to forum members.
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We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom
You should get banned for that!!
No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " , doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.
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We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom
You should get banned for that!!
No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " , doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.
Seems like you just might have made one. Can you prove that there are none. Do you exclude christians who believe in universal salvation?
As I stated in my post it is my opinion. If stating one's opinion is reason for banning then that is a real shame.
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The reason we are concerned about wolves in sheeps clothing, Harryfeat, is because Jesus warned us about them.
Mt.7:15-16 Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
What are these fruits other than false doctrine? It isn't talking about doing good works. Those are ehlpful to people. But what comes out of a man is what defiles him.
My understanding of Christiandom is not hasty generalization. I have studied the doctrines of all major denominations and they all have basically the same beliefs. I will list them below.
1. Church is a meeting, a building, or a place you go to.
2. God is sending the majority of humanity to hellfire.
3. God is triune.
4.You have to make a decision for Christ in order to be a Christian.
5. Man has a free will and can choose any event in this life.
Harryfeat, I don't care about your opinion, I care about truth. Your opinion may be true, but you shouldn't believe it unless you can rightly contend for the faith, and prove what you believe.
You are welcome here if you don't become antagonistic and try to bully people with your thoughts.
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I agree Sorin!!!!
I reread that post by Feat and that first part slipped right by me!
Hasty Generalization of Christiandom???????
That is totally correct in what you stated Sorin!!All the christians I know believe these things and that is why they are still in the church!!! My younger brother and one of his christian croneys said nothing good about the bible truths and I am by now sure they consider me a heritic!
Harryfeat I would like to know what you ment by that statement! I am sure most here at the forum would like to know what you ment by that statement!! You compared that statement to arabs and that all think they are terrorists!!! If they are muslum, they are an enemy of God and that is not a hasty Generalization my friend!!! Also mainstream christians that believe in eternal hell torment,freewill which is against God's will,Tithing as a command by God,condone war, believe that you must come to Christ instead of Him goming to you!!! I for one do not call that a Hasty Generalization Of Christiondom I call it THE FACTS!!!!!!
PLEASE ANSWER THAT HARRYFEAT!!!!!
bobby
Hi bobby
I will state again that in my opinion, characterizing ALL of christendom is a generalization. The reference to arabs was just an example of profiling that we sometime do to unfairly lump people in different categories. [btw Catholics are not required to tithe and I would include them in christiandom]
If you want to limit yourself to MAINSTREAM christiandom then perhaps you are correct that all or nearly all would believe in hell. If you want to include ALL of christiandom then you have to consider that there are those who believe in universal salvation as well. Admittedly this percent is small as I previously stated, but it is a generalization to state that all believe in hell. I don't think that it is factual to make a blanket statement like that. I am a christian and part of christiandom and I do not believe in eternal torment. Also, there are other christians who believe in annihilation rather than eternal torment of hell.
I find that lumping people and using all inclusive terms does a disservice to those who do not follow mainstream or majority.
So yes, I disagree that ALL of christendom believes in hell's eternal torment and in my opinion, to say so is not factual.
If you think I am off base, why would your first comment be to threaten me with banning instead of just asking my why my opinion differs from yours. It not like I said anything sacrilegious or heretical.
Am I to be banned because my opinion differs from you and Sorin.
You guys are really strict.
I hope this answers your question. If not I would be happy to answer any addition concerns you have.
feat
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Hey ya'll, Thanks so much for answering and I do understand a bit better now. Please don't let my question and confusion cause animosity among you. That is mainly why I did a private message so as to not start any feelings of ill will amongst the group. I promise it's okay. God knows our hearts and His plans for our lives both now and in the future. Thank you all again.
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The reason we are concerned about wolves in sheeps clothing, Harryfeat, is because Jesus warned us about them.
Mt.7:15-16 Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
What are these fruits other than false doctrine? It isn't talking about doing good works. Those are ehlpful to people. But what comes out of a man is what defiles him.
My understanding of Christiandom is not hasty generalization. I have studied the doctrines of all major denominations and they all have basically the same beliefs. I will list them below.
1. Church is a meeting, a building, or a place you go to.
2. God is sending the majority of humanity to hellfire.
3. God is triune.
4.You have to make a decision for Christ in order to be a Christian.
5. Man has a free will and can choose any event in this life.
Harryfeat, I don't care about your opinion, I care about truth. Your opinion may be true, but you shouldn't believe it unless you can rightly contend for the faith, and prove what you believe.
You are welcome here if you don't become antagonistic and try to bully people with your thoughts.
Hi shibboleth,
I apologize if you thought I was trying to bully anyone with my opinion. After all that's all it is, my own opinion.
I understand the concept of wolves and maintain a healthy skepticism of all that I am told.
Your understanding of christendom and my own are obviously different because I do not limit christendom to only the major denominations. I completely agree with you about the major denominations. They do not comprise all of christendom however.
Maybe I am being a bit anal retentive here but I still believe that it is a hasty generalization to lump everybody into the same belief catagory.
I don't have a handle on the statistics, but I realize too that there is only a small percentage of christians who do not follow the same precepts as the major organizations do. Is it factual to include them when you make general comments about christendom?
I am sorry if anyone felt I was trying to bully them into accepting my opinion. Thanks for welcoming me to stay.
I am overwhelmed by the unexpected ferocity of response.
feat
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We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom
You should get banned for that!!
No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " , doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.
Seems like you just might have made one. Can you prove that there are none. Do you exclude christians who believe in universal salvation?
As I stated in my post it is my opinion. If stating one's opinion is reason for banning then that is a real shame.
Okay, so you are a universalist, and don't believe in hell, that's fine. do you believe we have free will? and notice I also said, " one that believes Scripture , not doctrine of men".
You shouldn't be banned for stating your opinion, as you say. but what you said about us " being hasty to gerneralize " was a direct attack.
Here are the forum rules, in case you forgot to read them.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship and discuss what they learn on bible-truths.com. Others are welcome as long as questions are respectful and carry no agenda. If you seriously disagree with Ray or Mike, please email them directly.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray or Mike. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray or Mike. But feel free to express your scholarly views about the email, or any subject.
No preaching (including preaching via links). No name-calling.
Thank you for your cooperation.
I don't think saying things like " we on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization " is being RESPECTFUL.
PS. universalists understand that all will eventually be saved, but they don't understand the process.
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yes i think the next wolf that comes on the bt board may be in danger of death by lamb attack :)
sorry to joke on such a serious matter, i've been trying to find the balance between defending sound doctrine and being too intense, i have a personal trait of going right over the top on occasions. i'm trusting God to refine that right out of me.
as always the spirit and the body of Christ can help me in seeking to get it right as it were.
but after recent events i can see why so many are being vigilant, i'm sure in time we will all (especially me) find the maturity that God desires to bring us to in Christ.
f
don't get me wrong though i've got my eyes peeled
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Well put Bobby. Icame out of a non denominational church myself. Let me add it was very small. Yet they still had the basic same doctrinal teachings of man like every church that I been to. I no longer buy, sell, or trade there.
Kevin
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Well put Bobby indeed. I agree.
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We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom
You should get banned for that!!
No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " , doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.
Seems like you just might have made one. Can you prove that there are none. Do you exclude christians who believe in universal salvation?
As I stated in my post it is my opinion. If stating one's opinion is reason for banning then that is a real shame.
Okay, so you are a universalist, and don't believe in hell, that's fine. do you believe we have free will? and notice I also said, " one that believes Scripture , not doctrine of men".
You shouldn't be banned for stating your opinion, as you say. but what you said about us " being hasty to gerneralize " was a direct attack.
Here are the forum rules, in case you forgot to read them.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship and discuss what they learn on bible-truths.com. Others are welcome as long as questions are respectful and carry no agenda. If you seriously disagree with Ray or Mike, please email them directly.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray or Mike. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray or Mike. But feel free to express your scholarly views about the email, or any subject.
No preaching (including preaching via links). No name-calling.
Thank you for your cooperation.
I don't think saying things like " we on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization " is being RESPECTFUL.
PS. universalists understand that all will eventually be saved, but they don't understand the process.
I edited the sentence to remove the part you deem disrespectful, although I didn't intend such.
As far a being like minded, my reason for being here is basically a search for truth. I have little faith in the doctrine of man and have begun studying scripture to try to find it.
I do not believe in trinity, tithing or everlasting punishment. My views on free will differ somewhat from that espoused on BT and I have been studying that. I understand the concept of God being the cause of everything. My current OPINION based primarily on genesis is that we have choices within limits. God gave us dominion over the earth and that we are free from force to make choices within the constraints of our human form and the earth as our "playground".
I have no intention of teaching as I am here to study and learn. There is too much for me to assimilate.
I have a dry sense of humor and under different circumstances might welcome an attack from "babes in the wood". However, I also find it interesting that you emphasis the term respectful.
I am grateful for Ray and Mike for all they have done to put up the site and provide a strong foundation to challenge existing doctine.
I don't really care what your beliefs are but gave you some of mine to answer your questions.
I don't really have any real issues with anyone or any of the concepts here. If you truly think I am a wolf then you should clearly have me banned.
feat
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Hey Feat, I am so sorry my questions made people angry with you. That was not my intention at all and I hope you will forgive me for that. Sincerely, Jennie
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Harry,
I don't know if you're a wolf, and don't really think you are. I appreciate you correcting the sentence. you're welcomed to stay. I guess I got a little upset at first when I read that.
By the way, my beliefs are unlike anything you will ever learn in a church,
I don't believe in contradiction. Nor do I believe God's word contradicts.
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HI, Jennie...God showed me truths years ago so I left the Babylonian system-understanding Churchianity and for years just called myself a follower of Jesus. I have read your posts and really like you and believe you are sincere with us. Personally, I don't have a problem with you and your little "church". Fellowship with a few folks, hearing the word, helping out your neighbor is hardly back in Babylon. My grown kids go to church in a neighboring state and to see my granddaughter I go down there once in a while. Sitting in this building does not make me back in Christendom. I just read my notes from BT, so it is not a waste of time.
Just an aside...that church was where Carlton Pearson was the pastor of my pastor when he announced his Inclusion message. Ha. I didn't believe it then but never forgot about it. Jennie, God has you where He wants you right now. Trust. Don't worry.
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Hey Feat, I am so sorry my questions made people angry with you. That was not my intention at all and I hope you will forgive me for that. Sincerely, Jennie
Hi Jennie,
You are very sweet. Your question didn't cause me any problems and you have nothing to be sorry or forgiven for. I didn't take any of the responses to be angry. I just expected a different kind of reaction than I got.
One thing is for sure, I have learned a lot about other people's opinion about christendom. Thanks bobby for your perspective. It was helpful for me to understand your initial reaction. Sorin thanks for saying I can stay, that was really kind of you. Ertsky, death by lamb attack is hillarious on so many levels. And I thought I had a dry sense of humor.
I think I learned a lot today. Thanks for the post Jennie
feat
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Thank you so much Gena. Your post made me feel much better. To be quite honest I was about to tears over making people angry. Thank you again.
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Thank you so much Gena. Your post made me feel much better. To be quite honest I was about to tears over making people angry. Thank you again.
I don't see how you made anyone angry, but that is a gift I have. I was talking to this atheist, and saying how the doctrine of hell made him so angry. I told him I was a universalist, and I could make him more angry then the hell doctrine. He ask how. :twisted:
So I told him I believe that one day he and everyone else, would one day be a happy slave of Jesus, and he would like it. Also, he would wonder how he could have ever been an atheist., I would post what he replied, but it might get me banned. :shock:
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Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath
Jam 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
I did a quick word study on e-sword, amazing all the scriptures that came up for a couple words. :)
May the Lord Bless You and Keep You
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Bobby, don't worry about it. We all get angry from time to time. I am amazed yet again by the kindness and welcoming spirit of so many here. I hope you all have a great day !
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The reason I quoted Matthew 7 about wolves in sheeps clothing, is because so many think doctrine isn't important and not because of you, Jennie or Harryfeat.
Sometimes these threads start off on one subject and end up on a totally different subject. It has nothing to do with you, it's just how people are at times. I have seen it happen in so many discussions. One subject brings up thoughts about another and pretty soon we are off and running on a new subject.
Pople who have honest enquires about Ray and Mikes work are welcome here. It's peole who try to "stir the pot" and make us turn against each other that are not. We just had a big breakup 2 months ago and the board lost all it's messages. I think God just wanted us to start fresh. 8th day, new beginnings.
Jennie, you say that your church is not liked by the other churches. Could you please help me understand exactly what the other churches don't like about your church? I am really curious about this and don't really understand why you are so unliked.
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Harryfeat,
As I see it you said nothing wrong or disrespectful. All “Christians� (or those in what most refer to as “Christendom�) do believe man-made doctrines and not the truths of God. But not all “Christians� believe the SAME heresies, etc.
So to say that all Christians believe this or that (ie in hell, tithing, trinity) is a generalization and such generalizations have been made and they are not always true.
It was clear to me that you meant no disrespect. You didn’t even exclude yourself in the statement you made. You said: “We on this forum ….� That's hardly an "attack" on others.
I think some overreacted to your statement, having read more into it then what you actually said.
I’m glad to see that efforts are being made to correct the misunderstanding… :D
I just wanted to say that I saw nothing disrespectful in your initial statement (even in its entirety).
I hope this doesn’t cause you to be reluctant to respond or express your own opinions in the future.
Blessings,
Chrissie
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You have to understand that anything that even has a little incling of being of the babylon church is going to send up a red flag to most of us!!!
yes bobby, i'm thinking about this issue a lot lately, as it is fast becoming an issue for me.
i have a loved one that is being stopped from coming out, everytime they see the truth, a baylonian just talks to them till they get all confused and wander back in to the false doctrine.
i have another loved one that was attacked for defending UR. this resulted in seeing and seperating to the doctrine of Christ. (PRAISE GOD!)
i know God is working all this, and it should be good for my prayer life, but i am amazed how out of touch i had become with the "church sytem" babylon
it's been 10 years i guess since they chucked me out and so i rejoiced when recently God began to open my eyes, now i'm beginning to see just how much the beast and all Gods enemies without and within hates us,
these verses are not far away from me
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
i am fast realising these verses are not far away
but may the Lord deliver us as always from every pernicious word and work
babylon is no friend of mine
God have mercy on us all
and strengthen us greatly in the Word to turn the other cheek and love our enemies
by being faithful to God and loving not our lives unto death
again it seems i am pondering heavier themes
anyway Christ is my chief love and only God can do anything in good times or bad and bring me to the measure of the fulness
i just want to follow, i think it could get rough
i just want to stay under, to endure, to learn grow and serve, bless and obey
it's more than i can hope to achieve thank God
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
f
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Hello Chrissie,
Thanks for your post. I am thankful that my point of view was understood by someone.
My only objective was to respond to Jennie's question in a way that let her know that her church might be lumped into babylon rightly or wrongly even though not all her church's doctrines were known. She is a kind and gentle soul and I now understand her reluctance to post her question on the open forum.
I have to admit that I was completely baffled by the attack in response I got and it made me feel like a "lamb in wolf's clothing" for a while.
I appreciate your concern and assure you that I do not feel reluctance to make future posts. I pray only that tolerance, understanding and brotherly love be experienced by all in fellowship here.
feat
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this is in no way intended as a slight in the flesh towards jennie or any others who may or may not still be outside the doctrine of Christ
but i just read these verses and thought they bore reference
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
i am beginning to see i have not thanked God enough for opening my eyes to the doctrine of Christ !
f
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Hi Shibboleth, I hope I got your name spelled right. To answer your question about why we are dis-liked... There are lots of reasons but here goes. My husband , who is a minister, doesn't look like one. He looks more like a biker! The Preacher's association or whatever it is called are the traditional expensive suit wearing preachers so he isn't welcomed. If I am going to be totally honest, he doesn't even want to be welcomed as that would make him have to fit in with them in appearance, money and so on. Our church doesn't teach tithing . People give as God leads them to and that may be giving to a stranger on the street, or someone you may know that has a need. We don't care what people look like , wear or how "financially able" they are. It has been said of us that if we would be more restrictive in who is allowed at our church we would have a greater impact for the Lord. I still am not sure what that really means. We have people from all different walks of life. Some of us used to over-indulge in alcohol, some have been on drugs, some people are from divorced situations and you could go on and on. Those are just some of the reasons. We pray too much, we sing too much, we let anybody com into our church, we help people find jobs, we accept people just as they are and we believe that is what is right. Jesus died for all didn't he? The funny thing is that most of the churches around here have lots of money sitting in banks and they send needy people to us to help! Not that we mind. It's just that it is hard to understand why they don't just go ahead and help them themselves. I know I am running on but as you can tell I am quite passionate about just serving God however and whenever I can. I even have family members that have nothing to do with us because of our stand. It is sad that it happens but I guess that is just life.
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It has been said of us that if we would be more restrictive in who is allowed at our church we would have a greater impact for the Lord. I still am not sure what that really means. We have people from all different walks of life. Some of us used to over-indulge in alcohol, some have been on drugs, some people are from divorced situations and you could go on and on. Those are just some of the reasons. We pray too much, we sing too much, we let anybody com into our church, we help people find jobs, we accept people just as they are and we believe that is what is right. Jesus died for all didn't he?
How could being restrictive bring about a greater impact? Methinks those people are confused. Jesus wasn't restrictive in His ministry. He went to the same kinds of people who are in your church. I daresay that if Jesus were on earth today, His "congregation" would look more like yours than the ones down the street.
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Hi Jennie, my name is Debra, if you want to call me that. Or Deb or Shib, I don't care. Thank you for explaining why your church is so disliked. I just thought of a scripture in Rev.3:17 Because you say I am rich and have become wealthy and have need of nothing and you don't know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.
Usually the rich are poor and the poor are rich. We are rich in the truths of Gods word, and poor in material things. Tell your minister there are others who want to teach truth, and, unfortunately, you don't get rich on truth. Most people don't want to take that kind of medicine.
I really enjoy you Jennie.God bless.
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bobbys43
I can most certainly relate to that , as i lost a brother to an over dose, and hated how every church goer went about their hell manure.
Well now the my FAITH is growing i see the errors they proclaimed.
And now just forgive them for their ignorance. still we will cross paths with thelike and have to know our treasure is in the kingdom of God and no one can steal away nor destroy ever again.
Jennie
Peace and blessings be unto Jennie and your loved oones, may your head find rest and comfort on the shoulders of our savior Jesus the Christ and God our Father.
Rodger
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Thanks so much for sharing your stories. They break my heart but I think it serves as a reminder of the love and care our dear Saviour would have us show to others. I think that God, our Father is our minister and we are the hands, feet and hearts he uses.
I know for me and my household we will never be rich in the way the world sees riches but we are truly rich in God's eyes. It really wouldn't do us good to come up rich because we'd just give it away!
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what I see happening in Jennie's church is the doctrine of Christ...love thy neighbour as oneself...I see love there...the manifestation of the biggest command
now the question...are all churches = Babylon?
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The question was asked a bit earlier about other ministers saying we should be more restrictive and why they say that. It is thought and said that if we are going to "let those people in" we aren't going to be able to minister to families , children and all because the "better elements" of siciety would not want to be influenced by "those people". It has been said also that we would have money at our church if we had rules regarding dress, what job you do and so on. Many of the churches around here have this "church covenant" thing displayed that talks about how you can dress, how you have to tithe and even that you can't have a job that has any affiliation with any type of alcohol. This one man I know was told he couldn't be a part of a particular church because he drove a beer truck. He delivered to all the little stores. He is a great person but was told that by driving that truck to make a living he was condoning and promoting the sin of drinking! To be honest and I know this is ugly of me, but I know the preacher that told him that and I wanted to ask that preacher if he thought that 300 lb. gut he was sporting condoned the sin of gluttony!
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To be honest and I know this is ugly of me, but I know the preacher that told him that and I wanted to ask that preacher if he thought that 300 lb. gut he was sporting condoned the sin of gluttony!
:lol:
Jennie, you should have asked him that. :wink:
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To be honest and I know this is ugly of me, but I know the preacher that told him that and I wanted to ask that preacher if he thought that 300 lb. gut he was sporting condoned the sin of gluttony!
:lol:
Jennie, you should have asked him that. :wink:
I agree it not so much ugly, as pointing out the facts
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Hey Bobby, I know exactly what you are talking about. When we first started going to church the pastor said we couldn't go to stores, restaurants, etc. that had anything to do with alcohol. I just about drove myself crazy trying to stay away from everything!!! I finally figured out that God gave me a brain and a conscience just like he did everyone else and that no one was any more or less than anyone. I FINALLY started using my own brain and letting the good Lord correct me himself instead of allowing another human to lay out my path. Needless to say, it didn't turn out too good and we were no longer welcomed to that church. The sad thing about this today is that that pastor is still at that church that is literally falling down all around him. No one at all goes there anymore. It's just him and a falling down building.
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In the late 1970's I attended a Baptist church. The list of things they considered sinful was quite long.
1. Drinking alcoholic beverages was sinful.
2. Going to movies was sinful.
3. Women wearing pants to church was sinful.
4. Playing cards was sinful.
5. Boys and girls swimming together was sinful.
6.Smoking cigarettes was sinful.
I have read my Bible from cover to cover many times and never found any of these sins listed. But, this is what happens when man judges by appearance and not the by the spirit.
One thing the Baptists didn't think was sinful was gluttony. Many Baptists wer 200 pounds overweight. Gluttony is surely a sin if any are, but there were so many fat people in the church, they couldn't offend them by pointing it out. Also, they might lose a tithe payer if they offended them.
Their rules and regulations were so hard to keep and only caused me to reject them all. They never could see how contradictory or silly so many of their rules were. they were impossiuble to keep and only caused people to reject a God who was so strict.
Jennie, I know of only one store in my town that doesn't sell alcohol. But it does sell some movies that may be objectionable. We have to live in this world and unfortunaltely there aren't any perfect stores or businesses. We would have to starve and go without all our needs because we could never know where all the items we buy came from.
Isn't this like the story in 1 Cor.10:27 where Paul tells the believers not to ask questions about the meat they are eating for conscience sake.
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Boy, when you think about it there are so many more important things to think about aren't there? I am just so thankful that I do not have to live my life as I once did when I was so worried about appearances and what someone may think about me. It is freeing to let it all go and reach out to others in the way God is leading .
No worries Bobby, I just got back in town from our little annniversary trip. It was great: dirt roads, mountains , woods and streams. I love it out there!
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Shibbleth did you go to the same church I did???? We may know each other but don't realize it!!!LOL :lol:
Actually our church was the same way! It was horrable for me as a christian then and I really never had the joy and security of knowing God loved me and did not want to punish me for an eternity in a hell of torment!!
No one can live by those rules on their own and if I recall they never ever told you that it has to be Christ in you that will help you to not give in to the flesh!! They made it sound like it was totally up to you to do what was right in the sight of God!! I guess thats where that freewill thing came in on all that other false doctrine that was pushed in our ears!!
I thank God for the blinding and the deafening because He has really shown me just what it is that He is doing in my life right now after he opened these eyes and ears!!!!
I hope this doen't sound silly!!! I can be a real tard sometimes!! #-o
bobby
bobby , your right on !! how much more we love and appreciate the True Christ!!! after realizing his LOVE.
peace
chuckt
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My goodness has this string become a bit churchy!
Why isn't Harryfeat getting any latitude. It seems to me he is trying to convey an opinion, not rewrite scripture. Perhaps he's a babe in Christ.
I certainly am guilty of the same blanket statements against Orthodox Christendom. To deny this would be a lie but the statement that 'muslums are God's enemy' is the stuff I'd expect from Pat Robertson, John Hagee, or Benny Hinn - not from an 'aspiring overcomer.'
God specifically raised Pharoh for (but not limited to) the famous Moses/Aaron interlude, He called Nebuchanezzar "MY SERVANT". GOD IS IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING!
We come to this board to find that crumb of truth and occasionally 'opine'. It is very lonely out there after leaving the monolithic church system. The Board Police need to take a deep breath before jumping on their brothers.
I had enough of that at The Tithing Depot.
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My goodness has this string become a bit churchy!
Why isn't Harryfeat getting any latitude. It seems to me he is trying to convey an opinion, not rewrite scripture. Perhaps he's a babe in Christ.
I certainly am guilty of the same blanket statements against Orthodox Christendom. To deny this would be a lie but the statement that 'muslums are God's enemy' is the stuff I'd expect from Pat Robertson, John Hagee, or Benny Hinn - not from an 'aspiring overcomer.'
But Islam and Muhammad are Antichrist. Also, in the Sahih Muslim Hadith, Isa kills the ad-Dajjal. So it seem that Islam pronounces it own doom upon itself.
Isa is Jesus in Arabic, and the ad-Dajjal is the antichrist
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My goodness has this string become a bit churchy!
Why isn't Harryfeat getting any latitude. It seems to me he is trying to convey an opinion, not rewrite scripture. Perhaps he's a babe in Christ.
I certainly am guilty of the same blanket statements against Orthodox Christendom. To deny this would be a lie but the statement that 'muslums are God's enemy' is the stuff I'd expect from Pat Robertson, John Hagee, or Benny Hinn - not from an 'aspiring overcomer.'
God specifically raised Pharoh for (but not limited to) the famous Moses/Aaron interlude, He called Nebuchanezzar "MY SERVANT". GOD IS IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING!
We come to this board to find that crumb of truth and occasionally 'opine'. It is very lonely out there after leaving the monolithic church system. The Board Police need to take a deep breath before jumping on their brothers.
I had enough of that at The Tithing Depot.
I have read and reread this entire thread and I can't find what you are speaking of.
Yes, this started off with a bit of testiness but what I am reading shows me the brethren working it out amongst themselves, this never degenerated into personal attacks.
We will have differences from time to time but if we remain composed and pray for patience and understanding sometimes these differences will open one's eyes to things we hadn't seen before.
We must keep in mind to approach each other in a humble spirit remembering Whom it is we seek to emulate. Being passionate does not give license to losing control of one's emotions.
But I must say again that from what I can see this thread worked itself out, I am sorry if I missed something and if I did will someone PULL THIS BLOODY TIMBER OUT OF MY EYE!!???!
Peace to all of you,
Joe
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I don't know about this being churchy but it sounds like we all went to the same church! Those rules were killer weren't they? I have got to tell ya'll this one. Ya'll know we go to a little church that is not accepted by the churches in our community which is o.k. But when we first went there my husband was cleaning things up and found one of those church covenant things. I kid you not it was about 3 ft. by 5 ft. and framed. He pulled it out and said that we would not be able to come there if this was what the church wanted to keep and they needed to find someone else to be the minister, Fortunately , they did no longer believe in what it said and it was disposed of. Why have this huge thing on a wall that would leave so many out if you tried to live that way?I say this not to start discord but more in disbelief!