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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: orion77 on March 21, 2006, 03:36:09 PM
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God made us male and female, to where we come together and become as one to raise our own families. Here we are as fathers and mothers raising children, knowing full well they will make many mistakes. But there are none of us, no matter what our children do or become could possibly bring us to the point where we would torture our children forever and ever. Impossible!!
Now we are taught that God, who is our FATHER will torture most of His children for not obeying. Talk about ironic and 100% opposite to the nature of things. Is it any wonder why many people refuse to hear anything about God!
One does not even have to know anything about the bible to see it is a wrong belief. Who would want to have a father like that? Just amazes me how bassackwards the religious community has become. Talk about blind!!!
I don't know what else to say, jeez!
God bless you all.
Gary
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yeah orion, in many ways it is a mystery.
a mystery to me how i never thought to question the hell doctrine for all the years God had me in babylon... a head scratcher
plenty of other things seemed obvious tithing, leg stretching etc etc etc etc
clearly God could have opened my eyes at any time, yet He chose in His infinite wisdom to keep me blind to the absurdity of ET, He knows how much i suffered in babylon, then at a later time POW! and i was thinking "how the hell didn't i see that earlier" LOL
..who knows, bottom line is when God was good and ready He opened my eyes a little.
i mean now i wouldn't touch ET with a 30 foot barge pole it seems the dumbest doctrine i ever heard, not to mention the most insidious and vile blasphemy, but it never occured to me back in the day that it was a total lie..
well if nothing else it bears out that God works all things after the counsel of His own will, blind babylon, true apostles, false doctrine and blessed truth,
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
it will be sooooooo great to get these labour pains out of the way and get on with the plan of God
i for one can't wait till the present age has served it's mysterious purpose and we can get on with it.. but only the Father knows when that moment will arrive.
hehe a little world weary so to speak at the moment, definately had about as much as i can take of this present age and it's trials
oooops spoke to soon
LOL
whats that Lord ? you know i'm hard of hearing, WHAT! it's for my own good!!
well He is the Author and Perfecter
what would i know ? i used to believe in ET ;)
f
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This very idea is what had me at odds with the Church for most of my life.
As a child, I was MADE to go to Church every time the doors were open. I would listen to the preachers and hear the grown ups talk about Hell....then in the same breath, praise God and say how wonderful he is. It was very confuseing and to be honest....it just didn't feel right.
As I got older, I almost became an atheist...but God wouldn't let me!
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As a child, I was MADE to go to Church every time the doors were open. I would listen to the preachers and hear the grown ups talk about Hell....then in the same breath, praise God and say how wonderful he is. It was very confuseing and to be honest....it just didn't feel right.
Pretty much the same here.
AFA God punishing His children forever, my church taught that only Christians were God's children. The rest were children of Satan. That's how they explained it away. I'm assuming most Christian churches have the same doctrine.
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AFA God punishing His children forever, my church taught that only Christians were God's children. The rest were children of Satan. That's how they explained it away. I'm assuming most Christian churches have the same doctrine.
I've been to many differant churches...I have found them all to teach pretty much the same doctrine with only minor differances.
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Strange how a sinner can condemn another sinner. Good thing for us the One without sin came not to condemn, but to save!
From reading the new testament, Jesus was always willing to forgive, forget, bless and heal. It was the religious people of His time who made Him angry and I suppose it has always been that way.
God bless.
Gary
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God made us male and female, to where we come together and become as one to raise our own families. Here we are as fathers and mothers raising children, knowing full well they will make many mistakes. But there are none of us, no matter what our children do or become could possibly bring us to the point where we would torture our children forever and ever. Impossible!!
Now we are taught that God, who is our FATHER will torture most of His children for not obeying. Talk about ironic and 100% opposite to the nature of things. Is it any wonder why many people refuse to hear anything about God!
One does not even have to know anything about the bible to see it is a wrong belief. Who would want to have a father like that? Just amazes me how bassackwards the religious community has become. Talk about blind!!!
I don't know what else to say, jeez!
God bless you all.
Gary
Gary,
I have one request. You would not walk into a church and expect them to expel you would you? And if you would expect to be expelled would you not want to do better to those who visited your place of worship in the name of the love of Christ?
Since being here I have read what only amounts to insulting criticism of those who believe in the doctrine of hell with absolutely no real defense. I know that this is a place for those who sympathize with your doctrinal beliefs, but please recognize that there are those of us here who, either searching out "truth" or just seeking to have conversation do believe in hell and do not sympathize whatsoever with your harsh critique of both our belief and our mental state for believing in such a doctrine.
Now, if you have a problem with the doctrine and don't wish only to "preach to the choir" in order to have your own views validated, then please address the issue head on with those who believe opposite you.
Sorry to seem harsh, but neither of us want to be insulted or have our intelligence deprecated by another's comments.
Brandon
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broken, speaking as one who did believe in hell and eternal torture and defended it until I started searching, sometimes believers in the reconciliation of all things sit back and think. I do that too. I sit back and I consider the idea of undying never ending torture. Then I think about love. Then I ask myself how I could ever believe that God had any interest at all in eternal torture. I think it's when you see the simplicity in the Gospel and how it makes sense for God to take all the chosen who were picked out of the many called and use them to save the rest of the world you see the strangeness in eternal torment. It comes out that way, but if you were in the place we are at, having fully come to believe in the reconcilation of all things in Christ, you just take a step back at it. It's like an incredible rush. How could I ever have believed what I did even though it wasn't totally my fault?
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broken, speaking as one who did believe in hell and eternal torture and defended it until I started searching, sometimes believers in the reconciliation of all things sit back and think. I do that too. I sit back and I consider the idea of undying never ending torture. Then I think about love. Then I ask myself how I could ever believe that God had any interest at all in eternal torture. I think it's when you see the simplicity in the Gospel and how it makes sense for God to take all the chosen who were picked out of the many called and use them to save the rest of the world you see the strangeness in eternal torment. It comes out that way, but if you were in the place we are at, having fully come to believe in the reconcilation of all things in Christ, you just take a step back at it. It's like an incredible rush. How could I ever have believed what I did even though it wasn't totally my fault?
Regardless, it just seems to me that if you all want to teach the truth, then you would not insult those who you are trying to reach with your "truth." Regardless of intention, when I read these posts I hear, "Those who believe in the doctrine of hell are intellectually and spiritually deprived." As much as some of you keep saying that you don't judge anyone or see yourselves as better than anyone else, and yet your words deceive you.
Brandon
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Well I believe if someone must live with the idea of their families, friends, and millions and billions of other people being tortured without mercy, they are deprived of joy. I don't have to live with that weight anymore, but can lean on the promised of God. Therefore I am not deprived of such relief and joy. A few preachers and leaders in a church I used to go to, don't believe in the reconciliation of all things in Christ. But what do they ALWAYS say? They wish it were true. We don't have to be deprived of that wish. We believe.
Did you mean depraved or deprived by this "Those who believe in the doctrine of hell are intellectually and spiritually deprived."
I do not believe that you are depraved, just because you believe in hell. BUT I do believe the doctrine itself is depraved in and of itself. That is not meant as an insult to you personally, but I am being honest.
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Sorry you feel that way, Brandon. It is not my intent to be critical to anyone on this forum. No personal attacks have ever come from my posts. It is only to the doctrines themselves.
Years ago when the Lord first came into my life, the experience was beyond words. I could not keep it to myself, yet I never heard of this before, it was incredible. I thought if I told my family or friends they would think I was crazy, so I decided to go to every church I could find and share the experience. Big mistake...was escorted out of several churches....laughed out of a few....kicked out of a couple....had several say I was possessed by a devil....was not meant to be part of their club. I will not go into the specifics of the experience, that is between God and me, but I will say it was all about the love of God and without limits.
For people to teach the doctrine of hell, simply do not know God. Let me ask you do you have the spirit of Christ inside of you?
I no longer in person will allow someone to belittle or demean the faith God has given me, and I will not allow it over the internet. If you or whoever is reading this and still believe in hell, you need to rethink your beliefs and sincerely pray to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Believe me if you can do this, God will hear your prayers and reveal the truth to you.
If you want to keep believing in hell, that is fine, I have no problem with that, but this is a bible-truth forum, not a fable teaching propaganda machine.
With all sincerity,
Gary
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Broken, Orion is right. This is a Truth forum, but remember we were all where you are now at one time. When you do finally accept the truth you will see as we see. I am not saying this boastfully, but truthfully. See you really do not believe in eternal hell. Your carnality is urging you to but that "still small voice" inside of you knows the truth and so you are restless about it. See if you really believed that good people were going spend an eternity in hell you could not live the life you live. You could not allow anyone to die going to hell if you really believed that.
Just think if you were 30 minutes late for work and your neighbor came out of his house on fire you would not say "Hey I am sorry but I am late for work." You would do whatever you could to assist, but yet you go about your life daily with only a mild concern about loved ones and acquaintances that you believe will spend an eternity in hell fire. Impossible. You really do not believe that.
We really need to meditate on what we say we believe and then the "traditions of man" will not make the "Word of God of none effect".
God bless and keep seeking.
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Well I believe if someone must live with the idea of their families, friends, and millions and billions of other people being tortured without mercy, they are deprived of joy. I don't have to live with that weight anymore, but can lean on the promised of God. Therefore I am not deprived of such relief and joy. A few preachers and leaders in a church I used to go to, don't believe in the reconciliation of all things in Christ. But what do they ALWAYS say? They wish it were true. We don't have to be deprived of that wish. We believe.
Did you mean depraved or deprived by this "Those who believe in the doctrine of hell are intellectually and spiritually deprived."
I do not believe that you are depraved, just because you believe in hell. BUT I do believe the doctrine itself is depraved in and of itself. That is not meant as an insult to you personally, but I am being honest.
No, you read right the first time. I meant deprived, as in insufficient or lessened.
And as much as you may believe that those of us who believe in hell are deprived of joy, you are wrong. I can promise you that I have as much joy as you.
Brandon
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Sorry you feel that way, Brandon. It is not my intent to be critical to anyone on this forum. No personal attacks have ever come from my posts. It is only to the doctrines themselves.
Years ago when the Lord first came into my life, the experience was beyond words. I could not keep it to myself, yet I never heard of this before, it was incredible. I thought if I told my family or friends they would think I was crazy, so I decided to go to every church I could find and share the experience. Big mistake...was escorted out of several churches....laughed out of a few....kicked out of a couple....had several say I was possessed by a devil....was not meant to be part of their club. I will not go into the specifics of the experience, that is between God and me, but I will say it was all about the love of God and without limits.
For people to teach the doctrine of hell, simply do not know God. Let me ask you do you have the spirit of Christ inside of you?
I no longer in person will allow someone to belittle or demean the faith God has given me, and I will not allow it over the internet. If you or whoever is reading this and still believe in hell, you need to rethink your beliefs and sincerely pray to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Believe me if you can do this, God will hear your prayers and reveal the truth to you.
If you want to keep believing in hell, that is fine, I have no problem with that, but this is a bible-truth forum, not a fable teaching propaganda machine.
With all sincerity,
Gary
Then back up your claims. Understand that I believe you to be as misdirected as you believe that I am. I truly love Christ; I truly believe in Him; His Spirit resides in me; and for you to insinuate otherwise insults me more than you know.
If you are going to argue this point with me, then don't tell me to just pray and be led to the truth, enter the discussion, otherwise let our differences lie.
Brandon
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Broken, Orion is right. This is a Truth forum, but remember we were all where you are now at one time. When you do finally accept the truth you will see as we see. I am not saying this boastfully, but truthfully. See you really do not believe in eternal hell. Your carnality is urging you to but that "still small voice" inside of you knows the truth and so you are restless about it. See if you really believed that good people were going spend an eternity in hell you could not live the life you live. You could not allow anyone to die going to hell if you really believed that.
Just think if you were 30 minutes late for work and your neighbor came out of his house on fire you would not say "Hey I am sorry but I am late for work." You would do whatever you could to assist, but yet you go about your life daily with only a mild concern about loved ones and acquaintances that you believe will spend an eternity in hell fire. Impossible. You really do not believe that.
We really need to meditate on what we say we believe and then the "traditions of man" will not make the "Word of God of none effect".
God bless and keep seeking.
1. Do not dare again to tell me what I do and do not believe. If you truly think yourself humble and do not wish to be perceived as arrogant, you will not make such assertions.
2. I'm doing my best to spread the gospel of Christ so that people will not be resigned to hell. So, yes, I am doing my part.
3. Again, any time you make such assertions against me, back them up with some real thought and scripture.
Brandon
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so like what you are doing is saving them then are ya broken brandon
hmmmmmm i thought that is Jesus's and God's job to save !!!
Rodger
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so like what you are doing is saving them then are ya broken brandon
hmmmmmm i thought that is Jesus's and God's job to save !!!
Rodger
Please, unless you have something constructive to say, don't enter someone else's conversation.
Brandon
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broken brandon you seem a master of it yourself. yet when someoine else does it you are offended. why is that brother
you need a hug, attention ...
why the hostility....comon lets all group hug :)
Rodger
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Broken, I was not meaning to say anything untoward I was merely talking about what you say about yourself. Do not lose your joy discussing the truth. I understand. I am not meaning to be hurtful. I have been where you are I understand. You have never been where I am now in believing the truth that God is perfect and His Son did not fail when He was sent to be Saviour of the World. He did it. He saved the world. Rejoice.
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Brandon,
What are the wages of sin?
What did Jesus come to save us from?
What does He abundantly give us?
Are you a sinner?
Is God totally soverign?
Have you suffered for your belief?
Are you past His death and into His life?
I know you will scoff at these relatively simple questions, but the truth is you are not here to learn, you are here to bring in dissention. I also know that I could never convince you otherwise. The day will come when you will and not from your own free will. And I am not talking about burning in hell, lol.
Sincerely,
Gary
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Brandon, you seem to be the only one here, who is tearing everybody else down. So please, please enrich us with your knowledge. It might be good for a laugh.
Sincerely,
Gary
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And as much as you may believe that those of us who believe in hell are deprived of joy, you are wrong. I can promise you that I have as much joy as you.
First of all that is impossible for you to say, unless you know just how joyful the gospel is. Think about what you are saying. How can you have that much joy knowing how many billions are going to burn forever? That gives you joy? Is it because YOU are saved so you have joy regardless of all the OTHER people who are going to suffer never ending torment? And you call that justice and you actually can take joy in your gospel? There is no joy in such a gospel. There is only a heart that must convince itself to be joyful through the salvation of SELF, and not the WHOLE WORLD. I know that BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN THERE. I come from that world, the eternal torment arena. I know what it is all about, the lingo, the language, and the explanations. I can compare the two. You cannot. It is a different kind of joy. Not only do I have joy in my salvation, but I have EXTRA joy in the eventual salvation of all mankind. No other gospel or faith even compares to that. Don't pretend that you have a joyful message to give to anyone. Because beneath the language of orthodoxy lies fear, darkness, pain and chaos for most of the world. If that is your "good news" you can have it. I'll believe the truth that heaven must recieve Christ until the times of the reconcilation of all things as promised to the prophets.
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love_magnified
A big A M E N on that post, could not have said it any better.
Does not take a rocket scientist to know that any joy deprived on the cruelty of others is true sadist.
Why does there have to exist a hell, for the satisfaction of salvation of a few ???
The THOUGHT of this form of separation, the cruelty and torment of many v.s. the joyeous salvation of a few, is so very sickening in nature, spirit and unmercyful to even find any ounce of joy within it.
But still these ideas are fed to a great multitude daily.
Rodger
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:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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In one of Rays papers, he asked a question about what the purpose of our time on earth was about. He said something that I will never forget and I quote: "Just what is this human life on earth for anyway?--Why are we here?--What is our purpose?--What is God's purpose for the Christian? As children we are taught that Christian people live; they die; their souls go to heaven. Bad pople live; they die; their souls go to hell. Live, die, go to heaven or live, die, go to hell. So I guess this earth is a giant "soul factory."
So, brandon, God created some people to burn forever and some people to be with Him forever?
Brandon, you have nothing to do with anyones salvation. Since God created all people He is responsible for their salvation. He set this world up and He causes all things to happen
So, tell me Brandon, why did God create all these people He knew would go to an eternity without Him? This is not a sovereign, loving, merciful God who would cause so many people to be tortured for no other purpose than they were born into a world they had no choice in being born into?
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Love magnified and Falconn,
I agree with you both. Romans, chapters 5-7 are remarkable and easy to discern.
Romans 8:12-20. These are also very enlightening. God loved us while we were still sinners.
Please, Brandon read these scriptures and lets have an open discussion. There is not a single one of us here in this forum that wish any ill feelings towards another. For, we have all been where you are at now.
I was the one who initiated this thread. When you read the words, they were never aimed at individuals, but the doctrine. If you wish to discuss your belief, by all means submit scripture and lets dicsuss it amicably.
Best yet, read Rays and Mikes sites. And not just their words, but the many thousands of scriptures they present.
In peace and truth,
Gary
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Brandy :wink:
i see no hostility in your posts, you are where you are in your spiritual walk.
2Cr 8:6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
Brandon, this third part, do you know who they are?
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
these are the only scriptures that say " the third part" all others are a third part :idea:
the only question for you is.
is the fire to last forever???
peace and love brother
eutychus
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Amen to all that eddifying
that is so much sustance to feed a large flock :wink:
Rodger