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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: zvezda on July 31, 2013, 11:57:52 AM
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Acts 17:26
[KJB] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[NIV] From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
In Greek it doesn't say "one blood" or "one man", it only says "one" (henos).
My question: was Paul talking about Adam or was he talking about Jesus in Acts 17:26?
The church uses this verse to teach that we all come from Adam, but as Ray said, if church teaches that, it's probably not true.
After studying Acts 17, I tend to think that verse 26 is about Jesus/salvation (one blood = Jesus' blood???) and has nothing to do with Adam.
Acts 17:18 ..... he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, .....
Acts 17:28 ..... For we are also His offspring.
Acts 17:29 ..... we are the offspring of God, .....
Any thoughts?
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Actually, the majority of the Greek manuscripts say "one blood".
There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Over 90% of those manuscripts say "one blood."
Thanks John. Where did you find the info? Can you please point me to the source?
What exactly is "one blood" anyway?
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Hi zvezda,
I think Paul was speaking of "one blood," the human kind. The Jews called Gentiles dogs, considered them somehow sub-human.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat and John.
So looks like like Paul was saying "From one mankind He created all the nations...", it has nothing to do with Adam, right?
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Hi zvezda,
Well Adam is of the "one blood" as well. But seriously when you think that Paul is speaking to Jews and Gentiles, Paul was teaching something new to them, that the Gentiles, "every nation of men" are included in God's plan of salvation, not just the Jews.
Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat. Yeah, I think Paul was preaching the salvation to them, just that church says this is the verse to prove that we all came from Adam and hence Adam is the first man on earth, so I'd like to confirm that's not what Paul meant.
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Hi zvezda,
Well if you know the truth you can understand the meaning behind what Paul is saying there. But if you are blind to the truth and trying to understand doctrine with human reasoning, then you come up with things like that explanation. I don't think you can convince them otherwise either... they believe they have it right, just like you do. They have the whole church standing behind what they believe and well that's enough for them.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat. Yeah, I think Paul was preaching the salvation to them, just that church says this is the verse to prove that we all came from Adam and hence Adam is the first man on earth, so I'd like to confirm that's not what Paul meant.
These same Christians also still believe that a Jew is of the bloodline of Abraham - an outward Jew. They still fail to see that "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly...in the spirit". I can see how this would be tough for some of the Jews to accept 2,000 years ago, but today for Christians (spiritual Jews) to not comprehend this basic spiritual understanding and still refer to physical Jews as the "chosen people", it's like Esau handing over his birthright to Jacob.
Christians know all about flesh and blood, but know nothing about spirit and truth.
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I can't accept that ("of one blood") as being literal, so there has to be a proper translation somwhere, especially since it also says that God has set the boundaries of their lands, etc. It doesn't make sense to seperate sameness.
If we were all of one blood we'd all be the same, there'd be only one race. We'd be all white, or all black, or all yellow, etc.
It is demonstrably false to say that we're all of "one blood."
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I can't accept that ("of one blood") as being literal, so there has to be a proper translation somewhere, especially since it also says that God has set the boundaries of their lands, etc. It doesn't make sense to separate sameness.
If we were all of one blood we'd all be the same, there'd be only one race. We'd be all white, or all black, or all yellow, etc.
It is demonstrably false to say that we're all of "one blood."
Pierdut,
Take a look at this previous thread - you may change your mind regarding your assertion that it is demonstrably false to say we are "one blood".
There is only one race - the human race.
http://forums.bible-truths./index.php/topic,4451.msg34235.html#msg34235
Dear Sir,
Thank you for sharing the insight God has given you. I've been perusing your emails and replies for several days now and have finally come across a topic I thought I may actually be able to provide Insight to YOU for a change.
A Lady Named Karen Asked you where the "races" or different skin colors came from. It is important to understand firstly that there is NO SUCH THING as "RACE" as it is taught . The modern concept of "race" was invented by evolutionist racists who sought to prove that people who looked different were evolutionarily inferior. Ask any evolutionist where races came from and they will either say Divergent Evolution (one common "missing link" branched off) or Convergent Evolution ( Different "missing links" all evolved into the same basic shapes). It is easy to see how NEITHER of these GUESS ES claims that all people are in fact ONE people and therefore cannot be said to have been "Created Equal". But I digress. I'm sure you're already all too well aware of the evil and RIDICULOUS nature of evolution.
A simple study of genetics will tell you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to add traits to a gene pool, you may only TAKE THEM AWAY through selective breeding. Take a course in animal husbandry at your local college, or just go ask an AKC DOG BREEDER where BREEDS came from because that’s what the so called "races actually are, different BREEDS of human. Long ago there was a type of dog much like a modern lab but it came in many different colors. 1 liter of puppies would yield spotted dogs, black dogs, tan dogs, etc. Breeders picked ONE color they liked and only bred the dogs with the desired color. After a few generations the "Purebred" Black Lab was declared it's own BREED. Nothing was Ad d ed to the genetic pool. All of the other colors were removed. It would only take ONE breeding to yield puppies of more than one color again.
Hopefully no one is offended by my comparison of dogs to humans. But the principle is identical. When god created man he instilled the necessary genetic code for EVERY variation seen . While all mankind spoke the same language and lived close together there was no need for any of these traits to be removed. However, after the tower of Babel, Mankind experienced the first Linguistic Isolation. Only people who spoke the same language were likely to breed and there fore the genetic traits that were dominant in the Other languages, were lost to their gene pool. Afterwards the earth was divided, casing Geographic Isolation. People trapped together by mountain ranges, rivers and seas now had even SMALLER gene pools to draw from. Also ther e was now a drastic climactic shift. Some genetic traits made groups of people more comfortable in warm areas, and others more comfortable in the cold. These people would naturally migrate to areas where the felt most comfortable. (creating the illusion to evolutionist that the climate dictated their appearance rather than the other way round).
ANYWAY, I'll conclude as I know you're very busy. IF so called Purebred dogs are allowed mate outside their breed their offspring is invariably healthier, stronger and more suited to survive. The more they interbreed into so called "mutts" the closer they return to God's original Genetically TRUE creation. The same is true for Humans. There is no "Master Race" but rather, as language barriers and geographic barriers continue to fall, and the "races" continue to marry together and forget there difference we come closer to returning to the TRUE genetic poss ib ility of GOD. I've tried not to get too long winded but I feel strongly on this subject as far too many people seem to have a question as to just WHO Jesus came to . Mark tells us that Jesus said All the sins of "The Sons of MAN" would be forgiven. I'm no Hebrew scholar but I seem to remember being told that ADAM is Hebrew for MAN. We are ALL the sons (and of course daughters) of ADAM. THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF PROOF CONFIRMING ANY FACET OF MACROEVOLUTION.
Thank you for your valuable time. I hope this clears up some issues for a few of your readers. The blatant lies of they who call themselves "scientists" are often stumbling blocks for those who would believe.
Keep on taking their blinders off.
Very Respectfully,
Thank you for your email and comments, Robert.
The most concise statement regarding the races is found in Acts 17:26 & 28--"And has made of ONE BLOOD ALL NATIONS OF MEN...For we [all of us; all races; all nations] are also HIS OFFSPRING."
God be with you,
Ray
PS See a thesaurus and try and find a better word for "race" that carries the same connotation, and each one of them comes up short or more limiting that the word "race"-- people, nationality, cast, variety, type, mankind, tribe, group, ethnic stock, class, kind, nation, folk, gene pool, pedigree, lineage, community, inhabitants, population, populace, public, clan, breeding population, etc. Laws now prohibit racial prejudice, which seems rather silly, seeing that we are ALL OF THE "H-U-M-A-N RACE!" Why doesn't the law read that we are not to discriminate against anyone who is a "HUMAN BEING?"
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There's no such thing as the "human race" only the human species which is comprised of different races (or sub-species) and it is the same with animals too. Only a fool would suggest that lions and tigers are the same just because they're both cats, or dogs are like wolves, behavioural wise and otherwise because lo and behold, they can interbreed with each other.
That Robert is one sick puppy and is in line with the communists of the previous century and with the modern sick society which additionally waves the same sex banner and bestiality and paedophilia are next.
"Racist" was a smear word created by the evil commie Jew Trotsky. Now they also have "homophobe." Soon they'll have smear words against normals that are also against bestiality and paedophilia. Are you down with the sickness? Forgot who sings that song - but it's a sick, sick, world.
I can get you much better proofs that race is real, but a.) I don't have a computer at the moment, and b.) it would just get deleted anyway, just like this post.
I think I'm done here. If you support race-mixing and all the other degeneracy that's going on in the world today then it doesn't make any more sense for me to be on this board than it does for me to be on some pro-bestiality board.
Evolution makes a heck of a lot more sense than "of one blood all nations of man" when reality says otherwise.
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Everyone has an idol of the heart, and it seems we've found yours.
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There's no such thing as the "human race" only the human species which is comprised of different races (or sub-species) and it is the same with animals too. Only a fool would suggest that lions and tigers are the same just because they're both cats, or dogs are like wolves, behavioural wise and otherwise because lo and behold, they can interbreed with each other.
That Robert is one sick puppy and is in line with the communists of the previous century and with the modern sick society which additionally waves the same sex banner and bestiality and paedophilia are next.
"Racist" was a smear word created by the evil commie Jew Trotsky. Now they also have "homophobe." Soon they'll have smear words against normals that are also against bestiality and paedophilia. Are you down with the sickness? Forgot who sings that song - but it's a sick, sick, world.
I can get you much better proofs that race is real, but a.) I don't have a computer at the moment, and b.) it would just get deleted anyway, just like this post.
I think I'm done here. If you support race-mixing and all the other degeneracy that's going on in the world today then it doesn't make any more sense for me to be on this board than it does for me to be on some pro-bestiality board.
Evolution makes a heck of a lot more sense than "of one blood all nations of man" when reality says otherwise.
Wow Pierdut! Your true colors have shown through in your sick rant. Do you not know Scripture? Do you not know that Moses married an Ethiopian woman, which Aaron and Miriam disapproved of and Miriam was given leprosy. Miriam, you think being light-skinned is so much better - here's some leprosy for you.
Pierdut, the fact that you compare the inter-marriage of the various people on this planet (or "race mixing" as you call it) with pedophilia and bestiality is very sad. You will never be one of the chosen elect with that divisive idol of the heart. If you want to use color as a marker, I am a "white" guy and my wife is "black", "brown" and "white" - in your mind, she is the byproduct of something akin to bestiality and our marriage is "sick" in God's eyes.
Whether or not you continue on this board is up to you. I'm a newbie here and don't speak for all of the members. If this post isn't deleted, I'm sure others will give their own opinions.
I'll pray for you...
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Pierdut, God started His plan of salvation by revealing Himself to Adam and then worked through this pure race all the way down to the birth of the Messiah. All through the OT we see God's chosen people were of that particular line and this culminating down to the Jew in Jesus' time on earth. That was the old covenant.
Acts 3:25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'
And here is how all nations blessed from Abraham's seed.
v. 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
Now as Ray mentioned and science verifies that their were people before Adam, therefore nations not of that bloodline, where do they fit into the plan of salvation, since the chosen people were of Adam's line? Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13), he is saying to them, that the new covenant brings in the Gentiles and all nations of man, because they are all "one blood." The line from Adam down to Abraham and the Israelites were God's chosen people of the old covenant, but Jesus Christ brought in the new covenant by which all people can/will receive salvation, not just the line/blood from Adam-Abraham-Israelites-Jews.
Acts 28:28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
v. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
v. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
v. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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If I could trace my lineage back 20 generations, who mentioned in it would NOT be my family? Do I have another 'category' for all my cousins who aren't direct paternal ancestors and call them something other than family? Have I lost all 'genetic' relationship with them?
How are the genealogies of the bible different from that? You know, there are FAR MANY more people from those same lines who are NEVER MENTIONED in scripture than those few who are. They are cousins too.
In my view, what is being reconciled is FAMILY. I learned the RECONCILED and the FAMILY part here at BT. I already knew what a genealogy was. Our ultimate Father is GOD, not Adam.
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According to an international study of male DNA, nearly .5% of men, worldwide, carry Genghis Kahn's DNA
So 1 in every 200 men is a descendant of Genghis Khan
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/06/genghis-khan-facts/
http://www.omg-facts.com/Animals/1-In-Every-200-Men-Is-A-Descendant-Of-Ge/43205
Of course we are family and related :)
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Now I know why I get the occasional sudden urge for meat on a bone and bashing something with a sword.
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Hi Se7en,
I think that everyone has that urge at some level, but we tend to cover it up. Even if it is just that we fear that someone will hit back.
It has been said that the measure of a man is what it takes to make him angry enough to lose control.
A very good example of that trait is what was found in the Lord Jesus, who while being mistreated to the extreme, had the power to flatten everyone in sight. Now that is the type of spiritual control that we will NEED to have after we are ordained and taken into the family of God. That is true and Godly love and it's source is Father God alone.
Indiana Bob
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God started His plan of salvation by revealing Himself to Adam and then worked through this pure race all the way down to the birth of the Messiah. All through the OT we see God's chosen people were of that particular line and this culminating down to the Jew in Jesus' time on earth. That was the old covenant...Now as Ray mentioned and science verifies that their were people before Adam
There were people before Adam? Now that makes sense, with Cain going out and marrying and procreating... I always reasoned that God also created other people when he created Adam and Eve. Kat, could I have the link to Ray's teaching on the subject? Guess, he also seconds the old earth theory.
Of course we are family and related
We're connected genetically and spiritually. I've never felt at home on any other forum than I feel here. :) :) :)
In my view, what is being reconciled is FAMILY. I learned the RECONCILED and the FAMILY part here at BT.
As an Indian, I think we are the most racist people on earth, with our caste system based on racial superiority. I'd like to learn more about reconciliation and family that you wrote about Dave, a link perhaps to Ray's teaching. I believe its more than just treating your fellow Christian as a brother.
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Loretta, I'm not sure a single link would cover it. Stick around and read everything, and it will begin to make sense. It's not hard to put two and two together. :) It may take some time, though.
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I wanted to avoid talking about race on here but that didn't last very long. I said in another thread that there are certains things about me that are from a scriptural point of view contrary to being Christ's desciple; things I cannot change and which have no way out. Unlike my sexual sins which can be fixed once married to a woman, and it's then acceptable to God; this "idol of the heart" or whatever you want to call it I see no way of making it "acceptable." So if it's a "sin" I see no way of making it disappear. I can't just disregard everything I know, deny reality, and start believing falsehoods. But I am starting to no longer care because I have my own problems, and so why should I care about the future of this country, of future generations; about the fate of this world? I can see society decaying before my very eyes - in America, in Europe, in Australia, etc.
I wish I never heard of God or Jesus or even this site, because I see people that are ignorant, are atheists, that never once prayed to God, never believed in Him and they have good and decent lives. Whereas my life is a mess, everything always goes horribly wrong for me (and again today, another disappointment) no matter how hard I try. So I have to conclude that God is working against me and not letting me succeed in life. You might say that it's because of my sins or whatever, but I tried to change and do better but I always ended up doing the same things I repented of. And the main reason for repenting was so that God would have mercy because life's become so unbearable, so miserable, so disappointing. So it seems like I am in limbo or something.
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Trust me, it's not that I have no compassion for you. You are experiencing what I went through years ago, and it lasted for decades. Ray said you cannot come to really love God until you have first hated Him. Been there...done that. The house we've built on the sand has to fall, and GREAT is the fall.
You had every intention, you say, of not bringing this up, but you did anyway. You don't have a free will, and I'll let you know now I didn't believe for a minute you could go without bringing it up.
You think you have the answers for the world's problems, and if all those pesky OTHER people will just do right, the world would be better. But you DON'T have them. And you CAN'T have them. Neither can I. We are beasts. GOD is God.
Yes, the ungodly have easier lives often...not all, but many. And we'll think that is unfair until we don't any more. You "tried to change" and do better, but you CAN'T. Neither can I by my own will. But you WILL change. Guaranteed.
You bemoan your life, and that's understandable. You will think THAT is unfair until you don't any more. You don't recognize the mercy God has already had on you. And you are in limbo or something. Salvation is a process. It has a beginning and an end. Most of us are somewhere in-between, hanging on by faith.
NOTHING is harder to get rid of than a deeply held set of beliefs. I know this is true. I grew up primarily in the American south, after all. Even when we WANT to, we can't until they are replaced with the mind of Christ. The "light" you think you have is darkness, but nobody will be able to convince you of that except the Spirit of God. It's not love, peace, joy. It's worry, indignation, and if not outright HATE, it's ignorance.
I'm not going to promise you an easy time of it, or predict how long it will take, but our Apostle Paul, before his conversion, had possibly a more deeply ingrained sense of "racial" separatism than you have, yet he is the one who declared us all of one blood. He counted all that baggage that came before (and then some) as dung. The Lord changed him, and He will change you too.
Stay or go. It's your choice and you will make the one He has predetermined.
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Hi Loretta,
You know it amazes me now how much I used to blindly accept that those 'learned' men of the church taught. When Ray brought up the idea that there were people before Adam, I remember thinking, wow that does make sense. It was at his 2008 Nashville conference when he was discussing a lot of scientific evidence that shows there was no worldwide flood that he mentioned this. Now he just briefly spoke about there were people long before Adam and did not get into any of the proof archaeologist has uncovered. But here is a few sections where he mentioned it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.msg76395.html#msg76395 -----
Now I talked a little, not during the conference so much, but in some of the bull sessions in the evening we had. Where it was said, ‘were Adam and Eve the first humans?’ Well, I said, not necessarily and I gave numerous reasons for that. I thought of another one here just yesterday, so I’ll throw this out just for fun and just to think about. I’m not making some big stand on this.
v
Now when we come to Adam and Eve, He gives them a name and we know it’s just one. Are they the first ones though? Maybe not. Because we later have Cain, that says his sentence is too great, wherever I go, they will kill me (Gen. 4:13-14). Who will kill him? Who? There was only Abel and he killed Abel. So if there’s only Adam and Eve and their two sons, Cain and Abel… well Cain killed Abel, so now there’s only one man left, and his mother and father. He says to God, wherever I go, “anyone who finds me will kill me." Who? He killed the only other man alive on earth. Well if we interpret it that way, there are problems. Then Cain took a wife… so there’d be all these other things to contend with and so on. Alright.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.msg76394.html#msg76394 ------------
So He made the fowl of the air and the fish in the sea and on the next day before He made the first humans… I’m not sure that was Adam and Eve, because Adam comes along in chapter 2. But God said in verse 25, “And God made the wild-beast of the land after its kind, and the tame-beast after its kind, and every creeping thing of the ground, after its kind.”
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Ray was saying that he believes there is a significant amount of time between God creating male & female in Genesis chapter 1 and God making Adam & Eve in Genesis chapter 2. He also showed the Hebrew has different words to describe God 'creating' males & females in Genesis 1, compared to God 'making' Adam & Eve in Genesis 2.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.msg80842.html#msg80842--------
In Genesis it says, “in the beginning God created,“ the word is bara and it means to bring in something new, something really new. In Exodus 20, it says “for in six days God made…” First of all, even the translators knew not to put create. They put “created” in Genesis 1:1, but not in Exodus 20:11. Why didn’t they put, for in six days God created the heavens and the earth? Because He didn’t do that in six days. Then what did He do in six days? He “made” the heavens and the earth. What’s the difference? All the difference in the world.
In Genesis 1:1, He brought into existence everything that exists in the universe. From day one through day six He formed all of that into everything as we now see it in the universe. Two totally different operations. Totally, totally different, they are not synonymous.
The word bara (created) and the word asah (made) are two different words and they mean two different things. In the beginning He created it all, it was all there. But it wasn’t until certain things transpired before He began His work of asah.
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So anyway that does give you a lot to think about.
Hi Pierdut,
The sovereignty of God is a very hard thing to grasp on to and really believe. If you believe that God is sovereign than you know He is in control of everything "knowing the end from the beginning," and that what is happening is this world is according to HIS plan and we really have no say in the matter.
We can stand down here is all our self determined righteousness and tell Him how wrong He has gotten it, how messed up things are and if He would just listen to us we could tell Him what needs to be done to fix it... Can't you see how arrogant that attitude is, think about how He answered Job out of the whirlwind.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
v. 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
v. 3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
v. 4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
v. 5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
What I'm trying to say is until you really let go of the idea that YOU can do anything right; in your life, for this society or anything at all, you will never be at peace. We are absolutely carnal minded, arrogant, ignorant beast, pure and simple, there is nothing good in us.
God has a plan... IT'S PERFECT! It doesn't matter if we can't understand it now or cannot comprehend why things must be as they are now, He is not going to deviate off course because we don't accept His sovereignty and wisdom in this.
The beast must be recognizing that you are getting close to the truth, because it sure is putting up a fight, it will not go down easily. Now I believe Ray said something about how hard getting saved is.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html -----------
“getting saved” is the hardest most difficult thing that any human being in the history of the universe will ever do. There is nothing harder than “getting saved.” Are you hearing me? It is the hardest thing any human being will ever do in all of eternity. It’s the ultimate hard task. But, when you read the scriptures, it doesn’t sound that way.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat ,
Neat post and pretty long. Each time I re-read or re-listen to Rays material I glean additional information that I did not catch before.
The analysis of the creation of man is really a new way of looking at this that I did not see anyone even consider this idea before Ray's mentioning it.
Deep and insightful. I am still dwelling on Gen 1:25 and when that may have occurred, Gen. 2:7 and when that occurred. Likely not at the same time based on Ray's teaching. Still pondering these things. And the first time God calls the man Adam is in Gen 2:19.
I just listened to Ray first message from Nashville in 2007 and found that background interesting and he does mention you in that message. Keep up the good work.
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Let me throw this in the stew pot.
Adam is the Hebrew word for man, mankind, humankind.
Eve is the mother of all living. If Eve came along after the creation of other humans, wouldn't that make her the mother of some of the living?
Very true. This could also tie in the term "one blood" to mean just what it says. The Genesis account definitely seems to point to pre-Adamic man, but there are Scriptures that make it difficult to have 100% certainty about this topic.
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John, I know this may just make it more convoluted, but I do consider much of Genesis a parable/allegory reflecting a higher spiritual truth. I realized this quickly in a study of Genesis.
Obviously many of these things are not literally real; the Tree of Life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Satan a real snake, etc. But these symbols are so tightly intertwined with what is literal that it can only be unraveled by the Spirit of God. This is all intended of course to keep the world blind, hiding the truth in plain sight as it so happens to be.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Let me throw this in the stew pot.
Adam is the Hebrew word for man, mankind, humankind.
Eve is the mother of all living. If Eve came along after the creation of other humans, wouldn't that make her the mother of some of the living?
Very true. This could also tie in the term "one blood" to mean just what it says. The Genesis account definitely seems to point to pre-Adamic man, but there are Scriptures that make it difficult to have 100% certainty about this topic.
As Kat pointed out, the Jews considered the Gentiles sub-human. That's why Paul used the term "one blood" to tell them that all nations of men (the Jews and the Gentiles) were human.
Let me throw this in the stew pot.
Adam is the Hebrew word for man, mankind, humankind.
Eve is the mother of all living. If Eve came along after the creation of other humans, wouldn't that make her the mother of some of the living?
Actually what is "all living"? Does that include animals and plants?
I remember Ray said Adam ate the fruit because he knew Eve ate it and she was gonna die, he wanted to die with her.
So does anyone find it ironic that Adam didn't called Eve mother of all living when God first brought her to Adam, he called her that when he knew they were dying, right after God announced the punishments to them.
I could imagine Adam told Eve something like this:
Hey woman, we are gonna die, from now on, your name is Eve because you are the mother of all living.
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As Kat pointed out, the Jews considered the Gentiles sub-human. That's why Paul used the term "one blood" to tell them that all nations of men (the Jews and the Gentiles) were human.
Paul wasn't speaking to the Jews when he made the statement about "one blood" - he was talking to the pagan Greeks. He was addressing these pagan Greeks right in the middle of Mars' Hill. Read for yourself:
Acts 17:
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
So does anyone find it ironic that Adam didn't called Eve mother of all living when God first brought her to Adam, he called her that when he knew they were dying, right after God announced the punishments to them.
I could imagine Adam told Eve something like this:
Hey woman, we are gonna die, from now on, your name is Eve because you are the mother of all living.
You may have a point here, but if Adam did say "Hey woman, we are gonna die, from now on your name is Eve because..." - wouldn't it make more sense if he finished that statement with..."you are the mother of all DEAD."
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tks Dave, you bet I'm sticking around, unless God has predestined otherwise! :) :)
Tks Kat, for those links. Its going to take awhile to get through them, but I will.
Oh Pierdut, you remind me so much of my teenage daughter (no offense pls, I don't mean the immaturity that is associated with teens or their giddiness - actually, she is so mature, much wiser than her years, she could pass of as a poster girl for Christendom! :) ) But even I, as her mother can see through her facade (remember, she's been brought up by the rules of the Book!) as every now and then, the evil in her breaks through, spewing venom. I would have despaired, nay, I do despair - which born again, bible believing, no tongues here (!) mother would want her daughter to grow up all messed up, while the rest of the world has it all neatly tied up. But as Dave rightly pointed out you cannot come to really love God until you have first hated Him. Been there...done that. The house we've built on the sand has to fall, and GREAT is the fall. Believe me, I'm dreading my daughter's fall (it's my ego, actually), but if it weren't for the knowledge of the sovereignty of God, the working all things together for good part, I would have been tearing out my hair. Yes I am relatively new to BT, so I am still struggling to grasp on to and really believe the sovereignty of God, but the more I accept it, the more it comforts.
Ray said, "But who created this tree? God created this tree, right. Was this a good tree? Completely good? This is a tree of good and evil. Why in the world would God create a tree of Evil? Why would He create a tree of Good and Evil all in the same tree? Now, I could see a Tree of Good, and a Tree of Evil: eat the Good, but don’t eat the Evil. No, He put them both in the same tree! What? Do you understand the wisdom of this? This is not some stupid folklore where the guy got screwed up, He didn’t know how to separate Good and Evil so put them in the same tree…this is the wisdom of God! You can’t separate Good from Evil. You cannot come to a knowledge of Good without Evil. You cannot know Up unless you know what Down is. You don’t know what Sweet is unless you know what Sour is, or you would never know what sweet is."
Be encouraged Pierdut, you have tasted of the tree of good and evil like we all have, and acknowledging it, is what makes all the difference. A world of a difference!
p.s. I'll be praying for you
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Dave wrote:
[url][Trust me, it's not that I have no compassion for you. You are experiencing what I went through years ago, and it lasted for decades. Ray said you cannot come to really love God until you have first hated Him. Been there...done that. The house we've built on the sand has to fall, and GREAT is the fall.
You had every intention, you say, of not bringing this up, but you did anyway. You don't have a free will, and I'll let you know now I didn't believe for a minute you could go without bringing it up.
You think you have the answers for the world's problems, and if all those pesky OTHER people will just do right, the world would be better. But you DON'T have them. And you CAN'T have them. Neither can I. We are beasts. GOD is God.
Yes, the ungodly have easier lives often...not all, but many. And we'll think that is unfair until we don't any more. You "tried to change" and do better, but you CAN'T. Neither can I by my own will. But you WILL change. Guaranteed.
You bemoan your life, and that's understandable. You will think THAT is unfair until you don't any more. You don't recognize the mercy God has already had on you. And you are in limbo or something. Salvation is a process. It has a beginning and an end. Most of us are somewhere in-between, hanging on by faith.
NOTHING is harder to get rid of than a deeply held set of beliefs. I know this is true. I grew up primarily in the American south, after all. Even when we WANT to, we can't until they are replaced with the mind of Christ. The "light" you think you have is darkness, but nobody will be able to convince you of that except the Spirit of God. It's not love, peace, joy. It's worry, indignation, and if not outright HATE, it's ignorance.
I'm not going to promise you an easy time of it, or predict how long it will take, but our Apostle Paul, before his conversion, had possibly a more deeply ingrained sense of "racial" separatism than you have, yet he is the one who declared us all of one blood. He counted all that baggage that came before (and then some) as dung. The Lord changed him, and He will change you too.
Stay or go. It's your choice and you will make the one He has predetermined. /url]
Dave,
that response resonates deeply with me. I think this is the heart of the matter. It has definitely spoken to me. Thanks my friend.
One Love
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Concerning this verse.
Gen 3:20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
Adam called her Eve... maybe because God brought her to him in the Evening. Just a thought.
Now the next part, "because she was the mother of all living." Who was making this comment, Adam or the writer of this book, Moses, many years later? If Moses then this was just in keeping with the comments that were made in many other places.
Gen 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life.
Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.
Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind.
The word "all" in these verses is not speaking of all there was on earth, as Ray's studies shows us about the waters of the flood. It seems to be speaking only about those people God is directly working with.
Just some observations i wanted to mention.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Who are the dead and who are the living?
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God held no one accountable for sin before Adam, and Eve. ( no law ) Romans 5:13.
The scriptures show that Adam was the first man that God would deal with on a spiritual level. Romans 5 is a good study.
Paul called men he had dealings with in Ephesus ( beast ) 1st Corinthians 15:32
The serpent told Eve ( Ye shall not surely die: ) So from the time Adam and Eve broke God's commandment they started full blown sin with all the lies and deceptions. (DEATH)
Good point Dennis; " let the dead bury the dead. "
Did they die in that day, as in a sun up to sun down 24 hour period of time? no.
Did they die in "one day with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 peter 3:8. yes they did, Adam died at 930 yrs. Physically speaking the life is in the blood, but we must be born again of the Spirit in order to have real life.
Joel
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God held no one accountable for sin before Adam, and Eve. ( no law ) Romans 5:13.
Interesting Joel, So, Genesis 2:17 was the first law of God that Adam transgressed? But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. I didn't see that before, I always thought that the law came by Moses.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Who are the dead and who are the living?
This was one scripture that perplexed me for years, till one day, sitting in the catholic church at a family funeral, the light came on. Here where I live, funerals are social events, with attendance upwards of 200 depending on the social standing of the deceased, with packed cathedrals, an entourage of clergy and people bedecked in funeral finery. The officiating priest was extolling the virtues of the deceased, praising her good works, especially her financial contributions to the church. And I thought, why doesn’t he preach the gospel to this lost and dying crowd. Then I understood what Jesus meant when he said, let the dead bury their dead. All those folk, were spiritually dead come to bury their physically dead.
Ofcourse, now I know that they are not lost, and that we are all dying! Yet, as called out and chosen ones, we are not to be spiritually or temporally yoked to those who are spiritually dead, whose spirits are not awakened to kinship with God. Under the law, the priests were not permitted to attend burials and were considered unclean if they did come in contact with a corpse. For the same reason why menstruating women were not allowed into the tabernacle until they were cleansed because menstrual blood represented death or lack of life (the shedding of the unfertilized egg). The priests, as mediators of the old covenant were also not allowed to cut themselves or carry any sign of death or mourning on their person. Likewise I beleive that as priests under the new covenant, we have to be separate from anything that is spiritually dead (the unregenerate) or has the potential to bring death to our spirits (rituals, traditions). For this reason, apart from an occasional wedding or funeral, I do not attend any religious ceremonies - child baptisms, first communions, confirmation, novenas, festas and we have plenty of them in my local community.
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Were there men (humans) before the creation of Adam and Eve?
We know there were beings (creatures) that had man like features long before the creation of Adam and Eve.
Science tells us of beings like the Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, Peking man, etc. This would be many thousands of millennia before the creation of man and would become extinct. Science and scripture do not conflict as Ray pointed out.
But they certainly were not "human in that they did not have the "spirit in man".
So the question is: were there men before Adam and Eve? Ray suggested that there were and that may be so.
Eve is called the mother of all living (concordant says :" for she becomes the mother of all the living". If this refers to men who had the spirit of man in them, then how could there be men (humans) before Eve gave birth to children?
Cain was her firstborn and Able came later. In Gen 4:3 we find that some period of time elapsed before Cane slew Able. In that period, however long it may have been (Youngs says " And it cometh to pass at the end of days "), many more children could have been born and were inhabiting the earth after the first two born of Eve. After all it does take a length of time for resentment to build to the point of hatred that Cain felt. Perhaps years and years. That could be why Cain said in Gen 4:14 after he killed Able - ... every one that finds me shall slay me.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, are Gen 1:26 and Gen 2:7 speaking of the same event?
I am of the opinion that in Gen 1:26-27 God created (is creating as Ray explains from the original Hebrew) man in His image is referring to Adam and his progeny.
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Hi microlink,
So you think that these beings that descended from the early man, that science has proven were here and would still be around the earth at Adam's time, were not human? There were people on every continent by then, certainly not from Adam. What you're saying is right in line with what the church teaches, that there was no man/human on earth when Adam was created. Of course now they have even lost sight that there was any other people at all at that time, but I think that the Apostles and the early church certainly understood these things. So there was all these people and you think they did not have the spirit of a human it them, that is exactly what history show us that the Jews thought of the Gentiles (dogs) and the church carried that same thought on about the pagans? We see it in the Scripture and throughout history, if you notice how other people were treated and look down upon.
In the OT God has a chosen people where He begins His plan of salvation starting with Adam - Noah - Abraham - children of Israel on down to the Jews which Jesus was born through and they all thought of the rest of mankind as you are saying, as sub-human, not in line for salvation.
That is what Jesus Christ charged with the New Covenant, that there was not a certain or particular race of people that was God's chosen. It is not the physical that saves you, but the spiritual. That is exactly what Paul is addressing with the comment "one blood."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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(CLV):
Luk 3:23 And He, Jesus, when beginning, was about thirty years old, being a son (as to the law) of Joseph, of Eli, of Matthat, of Levi,
Luk 3:24 of Melchi, of Jannai, of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 of Mattathias, of Amos, of Nahum, of Esli, of Naggai,
Luk 3:26 of Maath, of Mattithiah, of Shemei, of Josech, of Joda,
Luk 3:27 of Joanna, of Rhesa, of Zerubbabel, of Shalthiel, of Neri,
Luk 3:28 of Melchi, of Addi, of Cosam, of Elmadam, of Er,
Luk 3:29 of Jesus, of Eliezer, of Jorim, of Matthat, of Levi,
Luk 3:30 of Simeon, of Judah, of Joseph, of Jonam, of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 of Melea, of Menna, of Mattathah, of Nathan, of David,
Luk 3:32 of Jesse, of Obed, of Boaz, of Salmon, of Nahson,
Luk 3:33 of Amminadab, of Admein, of Arni, of Hezron, of Pharez, of Judah,
Luk 3:34 of Jacob, of Isaac, of Abraham, of Tera, of Nahor,
Luk 3:35 of Serug, of Reu, of Peleg, of Eber, of Shelah,
Luk 3:36 of Cainan, of Arphaxad, of Shem, of Noah, of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 of Methuselah, of Enoch, of Jared, of Maleleel, of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God."
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "
Joh 1:2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
This is also a 'geneaology'.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God among us, that God has dispatched His only-begotten Son into the world that we should be living through Him."
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Hi Kat
Thanks for your quick response.
If you are saying that the following scriptures refer to the man before Adam and Eve, like the Neanderthal etc then I agree with you. Still thinking. Thanks
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day
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No I'm not talking about Neanderthal, which is known to have gone extinct. As Ray indicated I believe there were people/humans living all around the earth at the time Adam and Eve were created.
It is very hard to look at Scripture and not see it through the glasses of the deeply ingrained influences of what we learned in church. This idea that Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth is so totally believed by almost everybody and it's also laced into every aspect of what they believe and teach. All of their false beliefs are so tightly interwoven together that to believe 1 aspect you must accept the rest or it won't hold together. That is the house built on sand...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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What does it mean to be human from scientists view:
http://humanorigins.si.edu/human-characteristics
I was reading the "Brains" section (http://humanorigins.si.edu/human-characteristics/brains)
It says there's a sudden increase in brain size, especially between 800,000 and 200,000 years ago.
At the bottom of the page, it says:
"Large brains mean large heads, making childbirth more difficult and painful for human mothers than for other primates."
I was wondering if that's how God increased Eve's pain in childbirth - by increasing the brain size.
But then the timing doesn't seem right, since the rapid increase happened between 800,000 and 200,000 years ago.
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Hello folks,
I think a serious consideration of facts and logic with scripture will indicate that brain size has little to do with comparative human ability to become inventive and react positively with the environment. That idea has been rejected in most recent studies. What is more likely is the number of synaptic connections that develop within the brain of the young child, beginning in the womb.
As I understand, the main reason that humans have intellect is because their brain can receive information from God. Not ever attribute of humans is inborn or based upon physical heritage. God gifts humans with a "spirit" in man that makes mankind unique and able to link with God's holy spirit when God provides the connection.
Please correct where needed. Indiana Bob
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Tks for that post Kat. I so get it now! :)
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "
Joh 1:2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
This is also a 'geneaology' ! I didn't see that before, Dave. tks.
As I understand, the main reason that humans have intellect is because their brain can receive information from God. Not every attribute of humans is inborn or based upon physical heritage. God gifts humans with a "spirit" in man that makes mankind unique and able to link with God's holy spirit when God provides the connection.
Can't agree more Inianabob. It is God's holy spirit linking to my spirit that enables me to see the truth about one blood of all nations. Another Aha moment! :)
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Acts 17:26 One Blood; One Race Human)
New Living Translation (NLT)
26 From one man[a] he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries.
Romans 5:12-21
New Living Translation (NLT)
Adam and Christ Contrasted
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. 20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in life eonion through Jesus Christ our Lord.