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Title: Sacrifice to God
Post by: prarrydog on August 07, 2006, 01:25:00 PM


Eph 5:2  And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savor.


  My 5 year old daughter asked me this morning why Jesus had to die on the cross.  As I started to answer her, trying to keep it simple, I realized that I don't know.  What I mean is,  I understand that He died for our sins but my question is why?  Why was it neccesary?  Why did God require a sacrifice on behalf of His creation?  Any thoughts? 

With love
Scott
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: Andy_MI on August 07, 2006, 02:20:40 PM
Hi prarrydog,

When I was thinking about your question I started to look for the "legal" reasons the Jesus Christ had to die for us. I then thought that the reason had to be simple not complicated.

Then a simple song from my childhood popped into my head:

Jesus loves me,
this I know.
For the bible
tells me so.
Little ones
To Him belong.
They are weak,
But He is strong.
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
The bible tells me so.

Then these verses came to mind.

Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1Jo 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Rom 5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7  For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

He did it for love

Hope this helps

Andy
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: chumkin on August 07, 2006, 02:23:06 PM
because

God made us subject to vanity, so that we learn to love the good and hate evil.


if Christ died and wasnt risen we would be be forgiven dead people.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life


so it is because of Christ, we will  go on into other ages and not be stuck in a hole in the ground.



we could go on but for your daughters sake im not sure how to explain it to a 5 yr old.


 sorry if i made it worse ;-]

 chuckt







Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: hillsbororiver on August 07, 2006, 03:30:59 PM
Christ's mission was to bridge the abyss between the flesh and the spirit bringing humanity to His Father transformed from carnality into Sons and Daughters of the Almighty. We need the knowledge and experience of good and evil to proceed through this transformation.

Our Lord's perfect example of dying to the flesh was also the perfect sacrifice that covered all the sins ever committed past, present and future. Not a temporal sacrifice that needed to be repeated again and again (like the Temple sacrifices).

His resurrection is our hope and another example of where our faith (in Him) will take us. We are to follow His path in all things.

It is an amazing thing to meditate on, there will never be anyone who could say (truthfully) that our Lord did not know what it was like to suffer as a man, our trials and tribulations pale in comparison to leaving the right hand of the Father to live in poverty and servitude, having every person who accompanied Him during His ministry abandon Him, being hated and scorned by the very humanity He was bringing this greatest of gifts to.

Just some thoughts I had while reading this thread, I am sure it will be no help in explaining anything to your daughter though............

Joe
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: prarrydog on August 07, 2006, 03:39:14 PM


   Thanks for the responses.  Joe you are probably right when you say it is no help in explaining to my daughter  ;D , however you did remind me that there is not 1 reason for the cross, there are many.  Thanks again

with love
Scott
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: Harryfeat on August 07, 2006, 03:58:10 PM
Hello Scott,

Children are such treasures.  It took me a number of goofs and a lot of my wife's patient counselling to stop blurting out answers to our daughter before I understood what her real questions were.

In your daughter's case, from the words you typed in your post, she could be asking about the means of capital punishment.  In other words, why did He die on a cross instead of a firing squad.   The obvious answer is that crucifixion is the form of capital punishment of the day. 

In a spiritual sense, the answer is much as the others have aptly answered.  Christ died to atone for the sins of the world and to show us the way back to the Father.  And as Joe very rightly said, his subequent resurrection gives us the hope of our continued spiritual existence after death.

There was a parent and child discussing that very same issue and the parent had a hard time explaining to the youngster.  It happended to be storming outside and there were three birds sitting on a branch getting soaked.  The birds could have easily flown to the open hayloft just a few yards away and been safe and dry out of the rain.  Looking out the window, the parent became inspired and asked the child how the child could get the birds to fly into the barn for shelter.  The little tyke thought for a while and then said, "if I could be a bird I could fly up to them and then fly into the barn and show them.  The smiling parent just hugged the child and said that that was just what Jesus did.  He became a man to show us the way.


It is very hard to tell whether a child's question is basic or is deeper in thought.  Most of the time it's just surface stuff.  Either way, I admire you for trying to get a more informed answer for your child.

I hope this was just a little bit helpful
feat
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: prarrydog on August 07, 2006, 04:10:58 PM

   Hey Feat,

  Awesome.  That story is the perfect place to start teaching kids about Jesus.  Thanks alot.

   With love
   Scott

   OK. OK.  I admit it.  I liked the story too.
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: rocky on August 07, 2006, 05:12:27 PM
If i were a 5 year old, i would still want to know why couldn't God just tell us to say sorry for our sins, give us the Holy Spirit when we do this, and guarantee a life after death with this method, rather than through the death and resurrection of Jesus?



Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: Andy_MI on August 07, 2006, 11:48:35 PM
Quote from: rocky on August 07, 2006, 05:12:27 PM
If i were a 5 year old, i would still want to know why couldn't God just tell us to say sorry for our sins, give us the Holy Spirit when we do this, and guarantee a life after death with this method, rather than through the death and resurrection of Jesus?





God made us part of His wonderful plan... He could have just done it all Himself but.....

He loves us!

Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: chuckusa on August 08, 2006, 12:19:44 AM
Scott,

With my own daughter, who is now 12, I try to remember that she may be able to ask the question, but quite often will not be able to understand the answer. At 5, she asked a LOT of questions. I tried then, and still do now, to give her some example that she could understand, and then built upon that as she matured. There are topics that we have been talking about for years, and I still haven't revealed the whole story to her yet...in time I will.

I hope that helps a little...I too was anxious to explain things, but it's kinda hard when we are struggling with these issues ourselves, as I am.

God bless your little daughter,
Chuck



Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: jenny06 on August 08, 2006, 03:26:53 AM
Jhn 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.


 Jhn 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


 Jhn 15:14  Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Love, God's love for us, plain and simple.  A five year old probably knows more about unabashed love than all the grown ups put together. 
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: Patrick on August 09, 2006, 06:44:56 PM
I have been sitting back watching and thinking about this thread. It has been alluded to but not really stressed; the resurrection. Jesus is alive!
I know the question was why did our Lord have to die on the cross (good answers by the group, btw) but His resurrection is (my opinion) much more important.
I pray those faced with a question like this also include the resurrection; as Joe stated, that (His rising) is our hope.

 
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: prarrydog on August 09, 2006, 11:22:10 PM


   Good point Patrick.
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: GlenKlein on August 10, 2006, 01:41:21 PM
I've been thinking about this very question myself... I'm 42, but the funny thing is: I'm a 5 year old Christian. :)

The question for me could be reframed as:  Why did God choose the bloody sacrifice?  Why blood?  Why was it necessary that His Son suffer?  Why did God "delight" in it?  Out of all the things He could've chosen - knowing the end from the beginning - why that?  Why not appoint a Holy cow instead?  Or even a bloodless propitiation?

I started studying this topic and realized that it wasn't His flesh that He gave as a ransom - it was His soul (Matt 20:28, Mark 10:45), and giving Himself as a ransom for all (1 Tim. 2:6).  Leviticus tells us that the soul is in the blood.  The blood of Christ is a memorial of the power of His death and resurrection.  His blood is the tangible evidence, that was poured out for us.  And did not return - He was resurrected not flesh and blood, but flesh and bones.

He also was not mere equal, by any means, to any man who would take our place and suffer in our stead... He is the Son of God - no other sacrifice would work.  In other words, He did something that we would not even be capable of doing for ourselves.  He did not suffer as the innocent in place of the guilty. He was holy and was made sin for us, not as us. He is not a mere substitute, but a mighty Saviour.

So... after all of that realization - I still didn't find my answer... Why did God choose it to be so?  Why didn't God choose a Holy cow to be acceptable?  Why His Son?  Why blood at all?!

That's when I started thinking - and here's what I've come up with so far:

God said:

Lev 17:11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.

I dunno... the blood seems to speak of our carnality, and the shedding of it.  God created carnal man as sons and daughters.  In a physical sense, our most valued possession is life - the biggest price to pay is death - in our carnal minds, that is Love to us, but in reality... nothing to Him.  Is it just for our benefit of learning, in our carnal minds, in the greatest way that we can understand, as human sons and daughters???

That's kind of the same reason Jesus had to suffer - to teach us what True obedience to our Father looks like...

Can someone take this ball and kick it around a little more?  I would really like to get a grip on this question... I hear it from agnostics/atheists all the time, and would like to be able to lay it down better.  They like to use it as a defense to not believe in my "Loving" God...

Any more thoughts?
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: GlenKlein on August 10, 2006, 02:34:05 PM
Quote
I do not understand this comment? Am I taking this wrong?

Quote by Glenklien:
He did not suffer as the innocent in place of the guilty.

I should've elaborated... meaning it wasn't just because He was an innocent man - among guilty men - but because He is above us... (gk: huper) - we are beneath, or not on His level.

For example:

A drowning man in danger of death does not want someone to drown in his place, but one who is strong enough to effect his rescue.

A sinner, seeking salvation from sin, would not seek and equal person to whom he can shift the penalty of his sins.  That would mean death without hope of resurrection - The sinner needs One Who can cope with his sins and arise in Triumph over them.

Did that help?  Or, am I still confusing?
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: GlenKlein on August 10, 2006, 02:47:04 PM
Thanks hillsbororiver,

I remember reading that from Ray!  It's a good one!  ;D

But... it still doesn't answer the question (unless I'm missing something?) - why did God choose the blood?

Surely, an omniscient God, knowing the end from the beginning, could have chosen an alternate means to bridge the gap between us and Himself... other than - delighting in the brutal beating, and bloody death of His own Son.  I think that's really the question?

Maybe I missed your answer in that post - I'll go back and read it again.  If the point is that He needed to present evil, in order for us to appreciate virtuous good - I can understand that.  But that's not the question - He (God) could've chosen another form of evil... right?  So - that's the question I get asked by atheists/agnostics.

Are you saying that this picture is the ultimate in evil?  It definitely is God taking the responsibility on Himself, to be sure... but how do you answer the naysayers?  It's just a mind blower to me - at least right now.
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: GlenKlein on August 10, 2006, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: bobbys43 on August 10, 2006, 02:45:48 PM
Glen my friend this statement does not sound right either.

The sinner needs One Who can cope with His sins and arise in Triumph over them.

He became sin - we as mere mortals would not be able to cope with that... nor could we Triumph over them.  That's why it had to be Christ... that's what I'm trying to say.  He acts for our sakes, on our behalf. He is not doing something that we could do, but what we cannot do.

EDIT:  I think the capital "H" in my quote may have thrown you off?  It should've read:   "The sinner needs One Who can cope with his sins..." (I edited the original post to read correctly.)

Quote
but because He is above us... (gk: huper) - we are beneath, or not on His level.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Well... I'm definitely not claiming that Christ was not man.  That's to be sure... now I'm just not sure what I am trying to say.  Let me think about it and get back to you...
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: orion77 on August 10, 2006, 04:10:30 PM
Bobby, I like that verse you quoted, got me to thinking.


(Phi 2:8)  and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.


Christ, who knew no sin, who had the mind of God, even so humbled himself and became obedient to death.  Being crucified with Christ, no longer living for self, but for God and neighbor, is the death we are obedient unto.  Interesting verse.  Could this be why the second death has no power over us at the white throne judgment?  Because we have experienced that death during this life, and why God starts His judging at the House of God first.

Thanks for that scripture, Bobby.

God bless,

Gary
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: GlenKlein on August 10, 2006, 04:22:05 PM
Phi 2:8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

yeah... that is a good verse.  I just checked out "fashion" [gk: schema] in Strong's:

a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication) external condition: - fashion
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: GlenKlein on August 10, 2006, 04:42:43 PM
Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 10, 2006, 04:21:42 PM
Glen,

Explaining God's purpose to the naysayers? I hope you bring a lunch  :D that is impossible, if one is unable to digest even milk than they will surely choke on the meat. It is not the God's will for the carnal mind to understand;

Yeah.. I know  ;)  I just like to be prepared to give an answer when asked...

Quote
Now the reason blood was shed is because that is what gives the flesh life, the flesh must die to give spiritual man birth, both figuratively, spiritually and ultimately at the resurrection, we must die in the faith that He will give us a new and better life in the next age.

Ok... I'm still with you - I understand all of the above.

Quote
His blood being the blood of the Son of God and not only mortal man is the bridge between us and God, it is shed to cover us from our imperfection, a spiritual transfusion, life springing from death.

Here's where I get a little stuck.  His "blood" is really not the issue - His blood is the memorial, the evidence, of what He really gave up - Himself.  Which is kind of the same thing right?  The soul is in the blood.  Scripture says He gave His soul - not His blood. 

I *think* I'm getting hung up on the carnal definition of "blood" rather than the Spiritual definition?? - which is really saying that without blood - you have no soul (the body would not function).  Right?  Because the soul is the product of the combination of body + God's Spirit.

Quote
Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Can you see Christ as the "corn of wheat" which must die to bring forth "much fruit."

Yes... I'm still with you.

Quote
We must all give up the wisdom of this world, we must die to it and be born in spirit, all this business of dying in order to live and sacrificing (gladly) in this life in the hope of the next curdles the flesh of the natural (beast) man.

To become perfect Sons and Daughters we must experience imperfection, to show us the extreme importance and the priceless value of this gift He was willing to give us the sacrifice of His Son.

We don't need to jump through hoops for the unbelievers, leave the calling and choosing to God, it is better to seek His wisdom, love and grace, He will direct our steps and give us an answer when we are called to witness. There is a difference between witnessing and debating, one is of the spirit, the other is of the flesh. 

Well - I guess that takes me back to my original thought - God chose the "bloody sacrifice" in order to allow our carnal minds to be able to relate.  Life and death (the ultimate pinnacles of either end of the spectrum) we can relate to... the physical must come first, right?  So - I guess that's my answer? 

God could've chosen a different path (other than the brutal slaying of Christ), but - it then would not have been the "ultimate" representation of life/death, and obedience.  So, He really couldn't choose any other path... I can't help but think that there's still something that I can't quite put my finger on... I'm gonna go re-read your post again. 

If anyone has further thoughts... please offer them up!
Title: Re: Sacrifice to God
Post by: GlenKlein on August 10, 2006, 05:36:28 PM
For those interested, this is a pretty cool quote from another author:

Now, why should the blood be chosen to picture the soul to us? We have already seen that the soul has its origin, not in the body merely, nor yet in the spirit alone, but in their combination. And what could better portray this than the blood? It is fed from food by means of assimilation and thus is linked to the body and the soil; it is fed from the air by means of respiration and is thus linked to the breath and spirit.

Having learned that soul is synonymous with sensation and that the soul of the flesh is in the blood, we are prepared for the further truth that "it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" (Lev.17:11, AV), or concordantly rendered, "for the blood, it is making a propitiatory shelter in (or, for) the soul."

Now, as the soul is in the blood, what is more appropriate as a means of propitiation than blood? The same holds true in the higher sphere of justification or acquittal. The blood of Christ, the memorial of His sensations or sufferings for sins, is the pledge of our safety from coming indignation (Rom.5:9). Christ's suffering was over when the soldier pierced His side and blood flowed forth (John 19:34). And, after His resurrection, when He sought to calm His disciples, He could not say (which would have been most natural) that a spirit has no flesh and blood, but "a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having," (Luke 24:39).

In perfect accord with all this we are told that there is a soulish body and there is a spiritual body (1 Cor.15:44). The last Adam became a life-giving, or vivifying spirit, in contrast with the first Adam who became a living soul. Flesh and blood, indeed, is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, for the blood is the badge of a soulish body, while flesh and bones is in accord with a spiritual body (1 Cor.15:50). The statement that Christ's flesh was not acquainted with decay (Acts 2:31) in the tomb is enough to show that it was the very same flesh which endured the suffering of the cross. And this is put beyond question by the nail prints and the spear wound. And the further fact that His body is bloodless reminds us that a propitiatory shelter, for the pardon of Israel's sins, as well as those of the whole world, has been accomplished (1 John 2:2). The "blood" that is "making a propitiatory shelter" has been poured out.
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Guess I'll soak it in for a while... thanks for all your comments!   :)