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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Origen II on April 23, 2006, 02:12:54 AM
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I know Ray and Mike are busy going against Christendom, but I believe it's time that we start defending ourselves from accusations by Atheist and humanist as well.
Recently I've had a problem arguing as to why God would slaughter children.
Many of these Atheist (evilbible.com) believe that the Bible condones rape as well.
Can anyone help me with these topics? I think we seriously need to discuss these things.
I'd appreciate it.
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I think the best way to explain those things is to understand the spiritual truths behind them. For example, the promised land was represented by a peice of land in the Middle East. But the true promised land is union with God through Christ. Therefore all the towns that God told them to completely demolish without mercy, represent spiritual truths as well. Those enemies are strongholds (the man of sin in the temple of God) that the Lord gives us power to destroy in order to enter into the promised land more and more.
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i suppose it's one of the great controversies really.
why has God created evil ?
i don't have any particular answers, neither do i feel it is my vocation to defend God's creating of evil.
i have noticed a lot of times it's an excuse (the existence of evil) to not believe, rather than a reason.
i would discuss it i guess, if i absolutely had to
i saw a WWII guy on TV saying that after seeing some of the things he had seen it made it very hard to believe in a God
i sympathised with him, and his pain, but obviously God had not wanted him to see, up to that particular point, otherwise he would be able to see right ?
i think what i'm trying to say is that if you need an excuse not to believe, the existence of evil is a good one, but for me, my eyes have been opened a little, and i cannot deny what i have seen, even if i dislike the existence of evil.
today and yesterday i spent some time teaching my daughter some tunes on the guitar and the experience was so great it was what i would call good not evil. (we laughed to the point of tears, a real blessing)
so the knowledge and experience of good and evil
but for me evil is bad enough already that i feel lead to largely focus on the good which is so often neglected or ignored.
as in
Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Phi 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
if evil must come then it will, but i have had enough evil to last a lifetime or three and i want the good while it's here.
and if some blind man wants to say to me, your God is evil, well i pretty much understand where he is coming from even though i'm glad i don't agree with him.
i could come up with arguments but what good would they do?
no point fighting flesh with flesh.
if God want's him to know, then he will know, and if God want's me to tell Him, then God will put the word's in my mouth that He want's the guy to hear.
if you see what i mean
i just want to live in the spirit
to me it's bad enough that evil is here without wasting any more time than is absolutely necessary on it.
it may sound a bit weird but i couldn't care less what a bunch of atheists believe i used to be that way myself.
and i have zero interest in defending what i believe to people that don't really care, they just want to disagree.
and if they were genuine seekers well we'd get on fine i'm sure.
oh well i hope somewhere in there it made sense
f
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I agree with ertsky
I wrote in another thread about these people
I think you still need to learn you can not save anyone nightmare sasuke. Farther more these people clam have read the bible, and they still do not believe. They are denying Jesus before men.
Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Even worse they stand in Judgment of Jesus. They are of the Pharisees. They believe themselves to be better then God.
Matthew 7:1 [ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Luke 6:37 [ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Luke 19:26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."
John 5:28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
You should stay out of Sodom. It is not safe in there, or healthy. Even Paul would no go in to such a place.
You need to learn to wipe the dust off your feet. I have meant people like this before in real life.
2 Timothy 2:23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
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I agree with ertsky
I wrote in another thread about these people
I think you still need to learn you can not save anyone nightmare sasuke. Farther more these people clam have read the bible, and they still do not believe. They are denying Jesus before men.
Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Even worse they stand in Judgment of Jesus. They are of the Pharisees. They believe themselves to be better then God.
Matthew 7:1 [ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Luke 6:37 [ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Luke 19:26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."
John 5:28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
You should stay out of Sodom. It is not safe in there, or healthy. Even Paul would no go in to such a place.
You need to learn to wipe the dust off your feet. I have meant people like this before in real life.
2 Timothy 2:23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
I understand...but I want to know how to justify such things for those that sincerly ask.
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John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 4:11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another
Romans 5:9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
1 Timothy 2:4:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Matthew 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."
Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed are ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for in the same manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Luk 6:25 Woe unto you, ye that are full now! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you, ye that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for in the same manner did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you,
Luk 6:28 bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 To him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and from him that taketh away thy cloak withhold not thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every one that asketh thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 And if ye love them that love you, what thank have ye? for even sinners love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them that do good to you, what thank have ye? for even sinners do the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? even sinners lend to sinners, to receive again as much.
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend, never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luk 6:37 And judge not, and ye shall not be judged: and condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: release, and ye shall be released:
Luk 6:38 give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house.
Mat 5:16 Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Mat 5:23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,
Mat 5:24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.
Mat 5:31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
Mat 5:44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
Mat 5:45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same?
Mat 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
What is Law? Law is a contract, and what happen to a contract once it is fulfilled?
Jesus only gave two commandments
Luke 10:27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' [ Deut. 6:5] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [ Lev. 19:18] "
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I agree with ertsky
I wrote in another thread about these people
I think you still need to learn you can not save anyone nightmare sasuke. Farther more these people clam have read the bible, and they still do not believe. They are denying Jesus before men.
Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Even worse they stand in Judgment of Jesus. They are of the Pharisees. They believe themselves to be better then God.
Matthew 7:1 [ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Luke 6:37 [ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Luke 19:26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."
John 5:28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
You should stay out of Sodom. It is not safe in there, or healthy. Even Paul would no go in to such a place.
You need to learn to wipe the dust off your feet. I have meant people like this before in real life.
2 Timothy 2:23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
I understand...but I want to know how to justify such things for those that sincerly ask.
That is what I was saying O-man. There is no justifying. God isn't someone that we need to justify. But if we see those things from a spiritual point of view they make sense to those who see them from a carnal view and are put off.
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I posted these verses on another thread but thought they were appropriate here as well, if the Lord has chosen not to open their eyes at this time are we going to attempt to do it for Him?
Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
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It may be difficult to overcome what God has done by design.
Psalm 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.[/list:u]
Hi Bob, absolutely, we are in total agreement here, more importantly, so is scripture!
Joe
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It may be difficult to overcome what God has done by design.
Psalm 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.[/list:u]
Hi Bob, absolutely, we are in total agreement here, more importantly, so is scripture!
Joe
How did that happen? I was responding to you Bob but it posted as yours.
Interesting...........
Joe
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It may be difficult to overcome what God has done by design.
Psalm 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.[/list:u]
Hi Bob, absolutely, we are in total agreement here, more importantly, so is scripture!
Joe
How did that happen? I was responding to you Bob but it posted as yours.
Interesting...........
Joe
A you a moderator? Maybe you edited my post.
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I will try to answer the question of evil the best I can with what I know. In 1Samuel chapters 16 and 18, God sends an evil spirit to Saul. If we had no evil we would not know good. I certainly don't understand all the horrible things God causes to happen on this earth, but I know that nothing happens that God hasn't preplanned and ordained. He has a purpose for every child that is aborted, he has a purpose for every woman beaten by her husband or boyfriend, he has a purpose for every calamity, disaster and tragedy that happens in this world. We are mere mortals and can't possibly know why God does what he does and why He does what He does.
Someone explained evil like the scaffolding that goes up in order to build a structure. Once the structure is up, the scaffolding is torn down. So when God is finsished with evil, he will tear it down. It has served its purpose and is no longer necessary anymore.
When God has women and children killed in the OT, we tend to get teary eyed and sad. But, the fact is we don't know why God had people killed, and until we do, we are only speculating about it. The children may have had incurable diseases, such as syphillis or other STDs. What looks cruel to us, may actually be Gods mercy. Most of us know about the Nazi holocaust and how Hitler ordered the extermination of Jews. Let's say you are a Jew and have children. It is only a matter of time before the Nazis are at your door. You have cyanide capsules and can spare your children pain and misery. Would you be able to give your children poison to keep them from such terror? I can understand how God would kill people to spare them misery, since I could see myself doing it as a parent. Besides, God has created us and can do with us as he pleases. Romans 9 makes that pretty clear.
I will say that although I know God has a purpose for evil, I still don't understand the amount of evil He causes on this earth.
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It may be difficult to overcome what God has done by design.
Psalm 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.[/list:u]
Hi Bob, absolutely, we are in total agreement here, more importantly, so is scripture!
Joe
How did that happen? I was responding to you Bob but it posted as yours.
Interesting...........
Joe
A you a moderator? Maybe you edited my post.
Ahh, that was it, I am a moderator and I messed up and hit "edit" instead of "quote." The aim must be off a bit today.
Thanks,
Joe
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I will try to answer the question of evil the best I can with what I know. In 1Samuel chapters 16 and 18, God sends an evil spirit to Saul. If we had no evil we would not know good. I certainly don't understand all the horrible things God causes to happen on this earth, but I know that nothing happens that God hasn't preplanned and ordained. He has a purpose for every child that is aborted, he has a purpose for every woman beaten by her husband or boyfriend, he has a purpose for every calamity, disaster and tragedy that happens in this world. We are mere mortals and can't possibly know why God does what he does and why He does what He does.
Someone explained evil like the scaffolding that goes up in order to build a structure. Once the structure is up, the scaffolding is torn down. So when God is finsished with evil, he will tear it down. It has served its purpose and is no longer necessary anymore.
When God has women and children killed in the OT, we tend to get teary eyed and sad. But, the fact is we don't know why God had people killed, and until we do, we are only speculating about it. The children may have had incurable diseases, such as syphillis or other STDs. What looks cruel to us, may actually be Gods mercy. Most of us know about the Nazi holocaust and how Hitler ordered the extermination of Jews. Let's say you are a Jew and have children. It is only a matter of time before the Nazis are at your door. You have cyanide capsules and can spare your children pain and misery. Would you be able to give your children poison to keep them from such terror? I can understand how God would kill people to spare them misery, since I could see myself doing it as a parent. Besides, God has created us and can do with us as he pleases. Romans 9 makes that pretty clear.
I will say that although I know God has a purpose for evil, I still don't understand the amount of evil He causes on this earth.
Hi Debra,
I also cannot claim to know all the mysteries of God but I have faith that all He does is for the ultimate good of all His creation. We see through the glass darkly, our wisdom is not His wisdom but do have His promise, to reconcile all to Him.
In this vapor of life that we are presently experiencing we do not see the entire picture, how different it will be when we shed the corruptible flesh and put on the incorruptible Spirit to immortality, then will we see His plan and why it had to be the way it is. When we contrast the dark past (of the flesh) with the bright unending future as Spirit always to be in His presence I am sure it will seem like an insignificant price we paid for such a glorious reward.
Well crafted ornate pottery cannot be made without the fire of the kiln to strengthen it and bring it's beauty to the suface, such are we in the Potter's Hand.
Joe
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I met up with two friends last night who can be described as humanists aswell. The topic of religion came up. It proved to be confusing at best to explain to them what i beleive and why. I think their opinion of religion differs to mine.
I would say this to them. At the end of the day, i beleive that this whole life is a plan from God, a learning process and our ultimate destiny for every male and female ever lived, living now and will live in the future, is a wonderful nirvana.
When you tell them that, the debate goes a little quiet.
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I have always seen evil as a teaching aid - helping us to understand why we need God and why our own judgement can cause problems.
Logic is how we think. This is a universe that can be understood by logic. Do we enjoy it here? Well, sometimes, but not all the time.
Eden is not how we think. Eden is a universe that cannot be understood by logic. Would we enjoy it there? If we believe scripture, then yes :)
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Edon was a physical place made for the 1st carnal man, the new Heaven and Earth will not be physical, but Spiritual, it will be a Kingdom that flesh and blood will not inherit.
Joe
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I was just banned from EvilBible.com.
They basically told me that I was a rapist, murderer, etc. because I condoned the actions that God took to remove sin in the Promised Land before the Israelites were to inhabit it.
Even one of the Atheist there said I would not be in the book of life because I had "added to Revelation" on my dispute about the word "aion".
I dunno what to think right now.
I've never been more offended.
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I was just banned from EvilBible.com.
They basically told me that I was a rapist, murderer, etc. because I condoned the actions that God took to remove sin in the Promised Land before the Israelites were to inhabit it.
Even one of the Atheist there said I would not be in the book of life because I had "added to Revelation" on my dispute about the word "aion".
I dunno what to think right now.
I've never been more offended.
I told you it was a evil place, best thing for you really
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I was just banned from EvilBible.com.
I dunno what to think right now.
I've never been more offended.
Wear it like a badge of honor,
Joe
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I would love to be in your position Origen. Amen. Wear it like a badge. You are a witness against lies.
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Hello,
In my opinion the existence and nature of evil is no different than man himself. In essence, God is creating everything. What God wills... is, was and will be.
The whole idea that evil is a bad thing seems to stem from the concept of free will. We do not fathom one iota of understanding of God.
The conceptual argument of how can a loving God cause such human suffering appears primarily at its core a functional belief in a free will. If you believe that you do not have a free will then why would you possibly believe that anything else that God is creating would have one. Evil is here at God's will. Evil does as God wills it to do. Evil is a funcion of God's "plan" or will just as we are.
If there is someone out there that can reveal God and explain God's plan to me I would like to hear it. The search for truth is an interesting process. When does the search end? How much of scripture must we try to understand after we discover and believe in the doctrine of Christ?
For those of us who believe in Christ, there is the path of love has been laid out for us. The rest of the arguments about free will, hell, and any other misconceptions about who we are and what God's plan is just don't seem relevant. At least, not to me.
feat
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Well...I have a really interesting theory to propose.
However, I'm still trying to understand the nature of God in His dealing with the Israelites.
It does seem contradictory towards how Christ taught us.
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Origen II don't be fooled by that site i've seen and it does make good points to church going christians but they take a lot out of context plus everything back then was for us to learn from and to fullfill the law through christ if i said that right and even back then there was some symbolism such as (he who does not honor his mother and father shall be put to death) was never carried out and theres still a lot you need to learn to fully understand
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Well...I have a really interesting theory to propose.
However, I'm still trying to understand the nature of God in His dealing with the Israelites.
It does seem contradictory towards how Christ taught us.
Hello Origen II,
What is your theory you want to propose?
I didn't mean to turn off discussion by my post. It just seems that sometimes when you boil down things to what you believe are most important, it puts a whole different perspective on things without sometimes getting bogged down in details.
I really never understood the ruthlessness in the old testament. I usually got the idea that the Isrealites got the cocky attitude that "with God on my side I can do whatever I damn well please". It seemed to be a lesson to me more about pride and false priorities and political rules out the whazoo to keep everyone in line. A child learns fairly quickly to keep their hands out of the fire or they will get burned. Its seems to be all physical stuff, very little of the spirit.
As far as what humans do/did to humans vis a vis rape, plunder and pillaging, etc. how much better/worse is that then everyone in the world but Noah and his group being drowned like rats or the entire habitants of two cities save Lot and his group, men, women and yes babies, being showered with fire and brimestone? What's the plan?
Seriously, what is your theory?
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Well...I have a really interesting theory to propose.
However, I'm still trying to understand the nature of God in His dealing with the Israelites.
It does seem contradictory towards how Christ taught us.
Hello Origen II,
What is your theory you want to propose?
I didn't mean to turn off discussion by my post. It just seems that sometimes when you boil down things to what you believe are most important, it puts a whole different perspective on things without sometimes getting bogged down in details.
I really never understood the ruthlessness in the old testament. I usually got the idea that the Isrealites got the cocky attitude that "with God on my side I can do whatever I damn well please". It seemed to be a lesson to me more about pride and false priorities and political rules out the whazoo to keep everyone in line. A child learns fairly quickly to keep their hands out of the fire or they will get burned. Its seems to be all physical stuff, very little of the spirit.
As far as what humans do/did to humans vis a vis rape, plunder and pillaging, etc. how much better/worse is that then everyone in the world but Noah and his group being drowned like rats or the entire habitants of two cities save Lot and his group, men, women and yes babies, being showered with fire and brimestone? What's the plan?
Seriously, what is your theory?
feat
Well, first off I don't really see any "ruthelessness" in the Old Testament when looking at the Israelites. Not only does the Torah outline morality in the Israelite community and their care for other people, but the historical books in the OT expound on these events and show even more reasons as to why the Israelites did many of the things they did.
After finally researching these incidents in full (when I entered Evilbible I wasn't completely aware of these reasons, thus why I may have lost the debate overall), I have concluded that the Israelites were acting in the best interest of their survival as well as the survival of others.
While they did indeed live in a Patriarichal society..to say that they abused or disrespected women based on this culturual perspective is really grasping and doing injustice to the details.
We can get into that later, though.
My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.
If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.
The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?
You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.
Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.
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My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.
If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.
The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?
You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.
Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.
I believe that Ray also touches on your theory as well in his writings.
Is it kind of a theory of opposites like there is no up if down doesn't exist? How does this solve a PROBLEM we call evil? There is scripture stating that God created evil. Without light there is darkness, can the same be said about good and evil? Can they exist separately?
To me, good and evil are concepts of the physical world and the carnal mind. For example, if you were in a constant state of bliss, would good/evil, light/darkness etc make any difference, be of importance or even hold any meaning.
Aside from the obvious definition as the opposite of good, can you define evil in its most basic form?
feat
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My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.
If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.
The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?
You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.
Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.
I believe that Ray also touches on your theory as well in his writings.
Is it kind of a theory of opposites like there is no up if down doesn't exist? How does this solve a PROBLEM we call evil? There is scripture stating that God created evil. Without light there is darkness, can the same be said about good and evil? Can they exist separately?
To me, good and evil are concepts of the physical world and the carnal mind. For example, if you were in a constant state of bliss, would good/evil, light/darkness etc make any difference, be of importance or even hold any meaning.
Aside from the obvious definition as the opposite of good, can you define evil in its most basic form?
feat
Well...to tell you the truth, one of the reasons I really listened to Ray's teachings was because we both agreed on these points. Before I even came here I pondered this theory and I felt it made sense.
Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).
I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.
Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.
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Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).
I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.
Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.
I disagree with you in that I still say that the concepts of good and evil are understood by us with our carnal minds. The existence of good and evil is part of God's plan. Our knowledge of these is at best carnal.
God's creation of evil and His knowledge of same is not something that I believe is completely comprehensible to us as humans. We cannot fathom their meaning other than through our carnal minds.
God created light. Did He create darkness or does light overcome the darkness. God created evil. Does evil relate to good in the same way as light and darkness?
I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?
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Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).
I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.
Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.
I disagree with you in that I still say that the concepts of good and evil are understood by us with our carnal minds. The existence of good and evil is part of God's plan. Our knowledge of these is at best carnal.
God's creation of evil and His knowledge of same is not something that I believe is completely comprehensible to us as humans. We cannot fathom their meaning other than through our carnal minds.
God created light. Did He create darkness or does light overcome the darkness. God created evil. Does evil relate to good in the same way as light and darkness?
I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?
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Destruction.
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Anything opposed to God.
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Evil is subtle and deceptive. Speaks truth mixed with lies. And when we are ignorant as to who the beast is, we are being fed daily on evil. When we think this life we have is OURS and that God can or will not mess with freewill, we put this thing called SELF in the seat or throne of Gods Holy Spirit. I think that is a great evil in the eyes of God. There are many things to overcome in this life, the beast (self), is foremost, because we can not see clearly the spiritual things of God, while we sit in His throne.
God will and must bring us to the utmost point of futility before we can actually see these truths. This is a walk that only few in each generation, by the will of God, will partake of. But in the end, all will, each in his own time.
The whole book of Job answers this question. We have all eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Yet, we are not as God, we are made weak and sinners. The devil devours our flesh, while we think the control is ours. We can do nothing in ourselves and noone, no not one does good, while we sit in the throne of God. Until God brings us to the point of Job, and repent in dust and ashes, then we go beyond the hearing of God and move into the seeing of God. Big, big difference. Gods ways are tough, but just and righteous into creating men and women into His image.
For me, I know the me, myself and I cannot please God. I've tried and tried and failed and failed miserably. Until I let Him take over His rightful throne, I am nothing...I thank God to the end of time for bringing me through the mire and the fires, it has brought about the greatest changes.
Sorry, you all, I get going like an energizer bunny, can't stop. :lol: 8)
God bless,
Gary
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if Good is agape( selflss Love), then Evil is ampathy
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A few thoughts ...
I can well understand peoples' objections to parts of the old testament. Yes i can accept that they are carnal objections. Some of the commands given to the Israelites by God (to my carnal mind) seem at best offensive and at worst downright cruel.
At times, when i really think about it, it even seems 'lame' to me that it was all necessary just for the admonition of those who would be under the new covenant. How to explain that it was fine and dandy and all part of God's plan for the Israelites to invade other nations. How to justify the violence. Don't we condemn it today? Holy wars ~ religions have a lot to answer for ...but how to really understand why they were necessary (regarding the Israelites) for the progression of God's plan.
I know that someone may well respond and tell me that it's a shadow or 'type' of how we're supposed to regard and treat sins/idols in our own lives but ...wow. Heh, please believe me when i say that this isn't as ranty as it is probably coming across ~ just something i have a hard time grasping. God willing, i'll understand it one day but maybe not in this age.
I certainly wouldn't know where to start to help explain and maybe even justify ( :oops: ) these things to someone else. And it does get raised in conversations with people. Hell and the old testament are two big gripes to those who are looking to be convinced that God is love. One is fully debunked for me ...the latter ~ for now i accept that it's my carnal mind that's the problem. Which i will repent of one way or another.
Debra, thanks for sharing your thoughts. The idea that some of these actions may have been done from a mercifull point of view gives me a bit more in my arsenal against becoming all bitter and twisted over it ](*,) .
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I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?
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Destruction.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by evil=destruction. Destruction of what?
Does that mean that in your theory of dual concepts that good=construction?
I kind of had this notion that the basis of evil might in essence be deceit.
I sometimes get all caught up in details like... can a human be evil if God created evil as something separate from humans?
Anyhow, please help me with the destruction concept.
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I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?
feat
Destruction.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by evil=destruction. Destruction of what?
Does that mean that in your theory of dual concepts that good=construction?
I kind of had this notion that the basis of evil might in essence be deceit.
I sometimes get all caught up in details like... can a human be evil if God created evil as something separate from humans?
Anyhow, please help me with the destruction concept.
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The universe displays this concept rather well...with Entropy.
Evil = destruction (in a general sense).
Good = Construction (or productivity in a sense)
Sin = missing the mark of God's calling
In the cycle of the of the universe, matter is neither created nor destroyed (ultimately). When one thing is 'destroyed' it forms into something else. When a fire burns down a forest, it allows the land to become more fertile, thus producing more trees later on and helping the environment.
The concepts Good and Evil are essentially the same. The concepts recquire one another in order for the other one to become essential or significant. They feed off one another.
God has dictated that "Good" shall overcome Evil one day, but that is only when Evil has finished it's purpose and there is nothing left to destroy.
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When I debate this issue, I tell the person claiming that God is barbaric that they are questioning the actions of the Creator of the universe. He has His reasons. His ways are not our ways.
I refer them to the end of Job...
I ask them if they know better than God...
We look at some of those instructions He gave to His people in the OT as cruel at times. But that is how WE view the world through our human perspective. We have absolutely no idea what goes through God's mind. We may get a glimpse with the leading of the Holy Spirit...which helps us see the beauty in all of God's precepts...
Anyway, that's how I see it.
Blessings