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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Roy Monis on June 23, 2008, 03:02:51 PM
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Hi! Everybody
We all say we love God. So I got thinking about this for quite a long time. "Do we really love God as we say we do?" The easiest thing in the world is to say, "Yes! I do, I love Him more than life itself." But do we really and truly love God? How can we prove that we love Him? Because if we don't then we cannot expect to be admitted into the kingdom of God, that's for sure.
Well God says " If someone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1Jn.4:20). This means that if we don't love our neighbour as much as we love ourselves it proves that we don't love God regardless of what we may say to the contrary.
We can deceive our friends, neighbours and fellow men into believing that we love them but we will never be able to deceive either ourselves or God that we truly love them. So how do we find out whether we are genuinely loving our neighbour the way we are commanded to?
It reminds me of the gardener who pruned his plants regularly and fed them with the best fertilizers but yet the leaves kept withering and dying. Then he realized that the problem lay not with the pruning and fertilizers but with the roots which were diseased. Now the problem was diagnosing the disease. Once that was found the problem was solved.
Now in this spiritual environment we must find the disease that is concealing itself under a blanket of deception. Ray teaches us about a certain enemy within that is enmity with God and he calls it “The beast within.” Now we can name quite a few but we need to locate and identify the beast in our opinion that's causing the greatest damage.
I have my opinion of who or what that particular beast is, but I'd like to have the opinion of some other members so as to be able to say in all honesty that we love God, or have we been deceiving ourselves by complacently believing that we do. Now we are at the root of the tree, the pruning and fertilizing must come later when its health is restored. Presently we are pruning which is putting it the wrong way round, more in keeping with what the Babylonians believe, that the spiritual comes before the physical.
God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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I guess you could say "actions speak louder than words". I sometimes feel that I am using God to help me become a better me. There are so many things about myself that I hate and so I lean on God to help me change. I know that the anger in me, the judgmental side of me, the envious side of me etc etc, cannot be changes without God's help. So, I feel that if I truly loved God more than anything, I would not do things that he does not want me to do. I love God but if he were THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of my life, I would not have that beast eating away at me. So I guess he is not the center of my existence yet. Does this make any sense?
Eileen
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Funny,
I've been thinking along these lines myself recently. I may know intellectually what I am suppose to feel, and how a "Loving & God Fearing" person should react. And most of the time I pull it off. I heard a Pastor once preach that "Love is a decision...Not a Feeling"....not sure if that is entirely true for me right now!
Has my heart been circumcised, or am I just role playing??
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Great topic Roy Here are the scriptures where God tells us how we love Him
(Deu 6:5) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(Deu 6:6) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
(Deu 7:9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
(Joh 14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(Joh 15:12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(Joh 15:13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Love is not a decision that we are capable of . Loving God is impossible unless He works in you. We are incapable of obeying his commandments on our own. He has to give us faith (faith is the ability to die to self and it also is strong confirmation that God himself is Faithful)
We need to stop seeing ourselves as the center the the universe and see only God on the throne. When our eyes have been totally opened then only can we see that he loves all the people he created and then we can begin to love them in the same way.
Before this our love was always conditional. We love our love my parents because they provide for us. Later we love others for what they give to us. Sometimes the love is stronger than other time but it usually is conditional.
God frees us from this and through chastisement an He works on all those obstacles to love that are in us. Since we are in the flesh still we cannot reach perfection. Our heart and our soul and our strength are weak.
The first three of the ten comamandments deal with our relationship to him and the rest with our relationship to his creation.
He has to work on our selfishness and anger and greed and lust and covetnous etc and burn these out and replace them with mercy patience and kindness and love. It is a very slow and very painful process isn't it.
Every day and in every thing we do it reminds us our weaknesses. With the help of the Holy Spirit we take the first step and repent of our failures, but then we have to wait as he works on us so we can turn the 180 degrees and do the right thing the next time we are presented with the same issue.
beloved
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Hi Roy,
This is a great question and some very good answers as well, the proof certainly would be in the fruits we are displaying and also in the spiritual growth we experience as we journey forward, these things would be evident to ourselves as well as others and I firmly believe we cannot claim a godly love until we manifest the other spiritual gifts too.
Can one claim to love God and man as they gossip and spread malicious rumors? Can anyone truly claim to love God and man as they are impatient with the blind and deaf and lame? Can one really claim to love God and man if they are miserly with their time or money or patient instruction? I really like what Peter wrote in regard to this progression to godly love and charity (agape: a benevolent, affectionate, love feast).
2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Peace,
Joe
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I agree Beloved... we are not even able.
From The Lake of Fire Part 15-B (The Myth of Free Will)
1. "For from within, out of the HEART of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23).
2. The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked [Hebrew: ‘exceeding weak’] who can know it" (Jer. 17:9).
3. "Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [neither is it ABLE]" (Rom. 8:7).
4. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed [carnal-minded from our birth, as the nation of Israel was] to do evil" (Jer. 13:23).
5. "For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
6. "In Whom also we have OBTAINED an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
There are FIVE "causes" listed in just this one sentence.
7. "For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, [this is the cause an force behind our Christian walk. We are ‘His workmanship’ in action, not some presumed freedom of the will in action] created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).
Believing that we can "try real hard" to love God or that anything we do proves our love for God is as fruitless as any other "works" of man... the heart that loves the praise of man over the praise of God. It is a gift. We can do nothing.
The very beast is:
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Before we are shown the truth of the seven scriptures above... and until Christ makes us alive... we sit in the temple of God as the beast.
Bobby
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When asked this question I answer as honestly as I can.
I try!!
I then admit that my efforts are futile and only God can make this possible.
The fact that I know its futility is the greatest gift that I could have received up til now.
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When asked this question I answer as honestly as I can.
I try!!
I then admit that my efforts are futile and only God can make this possible.
The fact that I know its futility is the greatest gift that I could have received up til now.
Hi musicman,
I wonder how many see what a profound statement that really is, the recognition that we can accomplish nothing good without His Spirit within.
Beautiful.
Joe
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I know that the Pastor's teaching on...."Love is a decision" was intended to show that obedience to God's Word is Love whether or not you "Feel" like it. There is some truth to that, however as it has been so beautifully expresses here..Love isn't created by us....but in us, through God's Will and Purpose!
I desire to be at a place when Love is who I am and how I respond, without the struggle with the beast! I'm so far from that place... :'(
Roy,...What or who do you think the Beast is?
(I have my opinion of who or what that particular beast is,)
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Hi! All you lovely people.
Beautiful answers Beloved, Joe, Bobby Proctor, Musicman, OBenda and EKnight. Thank you all so much. But...But as Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"
Beloved you are dead right, the first three commandments deal with our relationship with God and the rest to do with our neighbour and I agree no one can love God unless God works in them. I accept that but if we are the called then God is evidently working in us. So that settles those points. Since we claim to be the called we accept that He is doing that. But!....But! As Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"
Now Bobby Proctor's :
1. "For from within, out of the HEART of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23).
2. "The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked [Hebrew: ‘exceeding weak’] who can know it" (Jer. 17:9).
3. "Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [neither is it ABLE]" (Rom. 8:7).
4. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed [carnal-minded from our birth, as the nation of Israel was] to do evil" (Jer. 13:23).
5. "For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
6. "In Whom also we have OBTAINED an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
There are FIVE "causes" listed in just this one sentence.
7. "For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, [this is the cause an force behind our Christian walk. We are ‘His workmanship’ in action, not some presumed freedom of the will in action] created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).
All excellent reasons, causes and effects and all undeniably true, Scripture proven. But!....But! As Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"
Musicman you say you honestly try and I believe you as I do Beloved, Bobby and the rest. The fact that you know it's futility is very near the mark but it's not good enough for the kingdom of God. Sorry! It needs a "Yes or a "No" Luke warm won't do, you know what God does with that. "‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." (Rev.3:16).
Which leaves the question still wanting. But!....But! As Ray would say " DO WE LOVE GOD?)
Some excellent Scriptures Joe and undeniable and most desirable virtues without which we cannot hope to enter the kingdom, "4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2Pet.1:4-11).
All very sound doctrine which we must follow. But!.....But! As Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"
Welcome aboard like minded Brenda, but please leave that pastor in his Babylonian roost, forget the mere feeling and with no buts answer "DO WE LOVE GOD?"
Your words Eileen: "I guess you could say 'actions speak louder than words'. I sometimes feel that I am using God to help me become a better me. There are so many things about myself that I hate and so I lean on God to help me change. I know that the anger in me, the judgmental side of me, the envious side of me etc etc, cannot be changes without God's help. So, I feel that if I truly loved God more than anything, I would not do things that he does not want me to do. I love God but if he were THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of my life, I would not have that beast eating away at me. So I guess he is not the center of my existence yet. Does this make any sense?
Bravo! Eileen, you are the nearest. "Actions speak louder than words." Your phrase and a beautiful one. That beast within, Ray tells us is none other than the "I" in us that is prompting all those sins of anger, judgment envy etc.etc. But!...But! As Ray would say have we taken the trouble to diagnose and expose the deadliest part of that beast within all of us that prevents us from honestly answering the question “DO WE LOVE GOD?" To do this we must act by identifying, exposing and then OVERCOMING him.
So now the next question: Who or what is the name of this horrible beast within us that is enmity to God thereby deceiving us into believing that we truly love God?
I have my opinion and I'd welcome all yours. So far the answers have been terrific all undeniably sound and Scriptural but not quite answering the KEY question "DO WE LOVE GOD?" Prove it by identifying, exposing and OVERCOMING the culprit. Unless we do that it's all from an empty mouth. "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." (1Cor.13:1).
At the present moment our focus is on tending the garden, pruning the trees etc. keeping it nice and trim for God, which I'd like to think is Beloved's first three commandments. But this appears to be to Satan's liking because while we concentrate on that our attention is detracted from the real enemy he has cunningly concealed within each one of us against our neighbour, making our profession of love for God as false as his false doctrine on hell or free will. All this frantic activity; tilling the soil, mixing the best fertilizers, pruning and digging to make the garden flourish but the leaves keep drying up and falling while Satan sits back and laughs and says "I've got you where I want you."
God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
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Roy,
I don't see where you are going with this...
The answer is no.
Do you keep his commandments?
I could ask if anyone even knows what love is.
Bobby
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1 John 4:8 He that loves not knows not God for God is Love.
1 Cor. 13:18 Love Never Fails.
Isn't the beast the sinner in us? The enmity that causes us to be of the flesh and not fully spiritual and not fully pleasing to God?
Eileen
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Hi all, is it possible for me to not love God so early in my learnings here? I mean I truly believe in what the Scriptures say, and Mr. Smith makes it so easy to understand sometimes. I say sometimes cause God doesnt let me see it sometimes until later. I really dont think I love God as it commands in His Word, cause I think I love my family more right now, and many other things for that matter. But God showed me that and I asked Jesus to show me how to love Him more, but that His will be done in His perfect time and not mine. I feel so ashamed in that and I wish He could show me faster. I dont even know why Im here writing this, aside from I do know its God's will. I say that because there is so much turmoil in me these days and I sometimes think that it's Jesus burning the evil out of me. Like when I first wake up He is there in my thoughts, not because I want Him there but because He insists on being there. Does that sound crazy? I know sometimes it drives me crazy, but I still try to thank Him.I find myself asking Him for help almost constantly as if by force. Cause it hurts that I cant do anything of my own. There is so much that needs burning out of me and it seems He is burning some big ones right now and it truly hurts. I want you all to know I come to you all in humbleness and lowliness. What is so awesome about you all is it seems God makes us think the same thing at once. Please pray for His strength on me as I have for you all. Thank you all and thank God.
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I have only skimmed this thread so forgive me if this is out there and doesn't help anyone :-\ but I keep seeing what is love popping up here. Paul tells us that love:
1 Corinthians 13 (Young's Literal Translation)
1If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;
2and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;
3and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.
4The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up,
5doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil,
6rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
7all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.
This says to me that love is an action as some here have said. Also we know that we cannot do those things without God because those things are not in us but of God as God is love. So from what I see we can only love God by and through God and it is not something that we can strive for or attain on our own. There is a warm fuzzy love emotion, but that is not what matters, we all know how quickly that feeling can go away, He must bring us to a place where we can love Him truly beyond that feeling. It's like a marriage, it starts off with warm feelings of "love" but that can fade and we must LOVE our spouse past those feelings in the way that Paul described. Only with God's help can we truly love God so I don't think it is anything that we need to worry about or condem ourselves for, but yet another thing to pray that He gives us the ability to love Him. All in His time.
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Boy, this is a deep thread for a sunny day!! Lot of meat here and I need to reread (print and muse at my own leisure). I loved all the answers and the scriptures are well worth re reading.
But since I haven't done all that yet....I would say that I can NOT love God. Sometimes I don't even think about it or try! My puny little efforts at loving my neighbor fall pitifully short. Why, I am not even THAT good at loving my family! ;)
It is way too deep- until we see HIM as HE truly IS-when we are like HIM- we then may understand HIS GREAT LOVE for us!!! We will never come close!
IMHO ;)
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Hi, yes that actually helped me alot KirstaD. It shows me how far I have to go yet. Shows me how I miss the mark in so many ways. I will study those verses, thank you.
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Hello Folks,
Without going through all the names there is a lot to be gleaned from all those who previously posted, many legitimate thoughts to consider for sure.
One might ask "do you know God? Do you know Him completely? How can you love Him if you really don't know Him?" So my question is do you know God?
I believe we can know His Spirit to a certain degree in the here and now especially when we can see the results of His indwelling Spirit in our own lives, less ego, more patience, less of a willingness to condemn and hold grudges, etc. We are promised "the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit in our hearts" [2Cor 1:22] but we will not have the full inheritance until His return and we "see Him as He is" [1John 3:2].
In my previous post that quoted 2Peter 1:1-11 it is written of a certain progression a believer experiences, if these things are happening in your life you can be sure it is not your doing but it is the Spirit of God working in you, nurturing you, mentoring you, developing the divine nature within you, I believe it is only when this is fully developed can we proclaim without fear of hypocrisy that; YES! I know my God and I love Him more than anything!
Remember Peter's claim before the crucifixion? That he would never forsake Christ? Do you also remember how he denied Him three times "before the cock crowed?" How about after the resurrection when Christ asked not once, not twice but three times "Peter dost thou love me?" Peter was grieved when he was asked this question three times, of course he was vividly reminded of his own failure and his own presumptuousness. What was Christ's last words to Peter during this episode? "Feed my sheep."
Being a living example and answering when someone asks the reason for your contentment is feeding the sheep, keeping His commands and displaying His love.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Well Roy,
IMHO...The beast within me is what I also understand as the Ego/Carnial Mind. Which calls itself "I". It sees itself as separate from others, where comes forth pride and judgement and loneliness. It identifies itself with physical things, which produces Lust and Greed. (What car I drive, what I do for Work, What Church I go to) When the scriptures tell us WE are "ONE" body....with many parts...."ONE" tree with many Limbs.
So the one that says "I" in me is the beast.
So No "I" do not Love GOD!
But greater is he that is in me, than he that is in the World (Satan)
But the creation and workmanship that is HIM that works in me, Loves God Dearly!
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Roy,
I don't see where you are going with this...
The answer is no.
Do you keep his commandments?
I could ask if anyone even knows what love is.
Bobby
Dear Bobby
All I can say to that is please read my posting carefully. I never asked why, where, when or how we should love God, everyone answered those questions with Scriptural proof correctly including yourself. The question was " DO YOU LOVE GOD?"
Then you go on to say, " I could ask if anyone even knows what love is."
If you mean the carnal version of love "Erotica" I'd say yes virtually everyone would be well acquainted with it but if you mean Godly love "Agape" I'd have to say "NO" virtually no one including myself knows the first thing about it. This is the challenge that Deb/Arcturus is confronted with at this moment in time.
What is Godly Love in the first place; " If I speak with the tongues of men and of angel, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogantt, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things,believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails ; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13).
This is "Agape" love. Do you have this kind of love with all the required qualities highlighted? If you do, then your answer to "DO YOU LOVE GOD?" is YES, if not it is no different to mine which is NO.
The reason for this is that Satan has deceived us into a complacency of believing that we love God when in reality he has put a thorn in our side in the form of the beast within that preys on the love for our neighbour.
Now do you follow what I'm about? We have to identify, locate and OVERCOME this beast that is keeping us from loving God in TRUTH not just in words. This is our purpose in life, this is the main theme of Ray's teachings, OVERCOMING constantly repeated to the 7 Churches in Asia. (Rev.2:7,11,17,21) (Rev,3:5,12.21).
Now don't tell me you're situated in America, Canada, South Africa, Europe or Australia and not in Asia so it doesn't apply to you, or I won't believe you.
There is a reason for this brother so don't just dismiss it off hand because you can't see where it's leading or understand it, that is not wise. I've learned an enormous amount from Ray's teachings and this forum and it is my wish to input as much insight as I possibly can for the benefit of all, including you if you're prepared to give it a fair try. I'm no teacher and I'm not trying to teach anyone, just sharing what I believe the Spirit is saying to me. If you can't see it.....Well with your attitude toward it regrettably you won't see it.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Roy,
You said:
Well with your attitude toward it regrettably you won't see it.
I can tell you assuredly you do not know my attitude... and not following your train of thought shouldn't mean that I have one.
Ray has a great study on The Myth of free will and the beast... is this new material you are presenting?
And yes, the love chapter describes some qualities of love... and Love also creates darkness, Love creates evil, and Love created the waster to destroy the flesh.
Bobby
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Roy, the point was made several posts ago. I don't see a trend of forum members continually lying to themselves and claiming to know and love God the way we must. Let's remember that everything is relative. Are you going to point out every flaw in one's character which shows a lack of love for God? Even when I gave a dead honest answer you felt compeled to remind me that I am a fence staddler or something (luke warm). Well no joke Shirlock (wait, did I say that right?). Anyway, let's leave the teaching to Ray.
P.S.
Thanks for the scriture about luke warm. It's good to know exactly what I am. It's way better to be luke warm right now than wicked hot in Satan's barbacue pit known as hell.
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I think that in a roundabout way Roy was alluding to what Paul wrote here;
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Here is our "beast" the carnal mind)
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
I really do not think this is a simple yes or no answer, as carnal men the answer would be a flat "no" as we do not have a clue as to who and what God actually is, if we are called to experience His indwelling Spirit then it should be I love God more than yesterday but not as much as tomorrow. For those who once believed in an eternal hell did you not immediately feel a love for God that you had not before when it was revealed that this hell business is a doctrine of Satan and not of God?
As our eyes open to God's ultimate plan for all mankind, as we understand this (and by extension His Divine nature) learning more of Him day by day doesn't our love continue to increase? I believe this increase will continue always, throughout our immortal lives.
Roy please correct me if I have mistakenly represented your thoughts.
Peace,
Joe
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Great thread Roy from the UK. Awhile back I wrote an email to Ray, and I said just how I felt on this and related subjects. I called it, I feel like a hypocrit. Yes this is how I feel about your question. I don't know how to post my email for all to read. It has some good points in it that I feel that most can relate to. Your mention that it is a straight yes or know ansewer.Without going into a long reason why, my ansewer is No. I feel as if I do not love God in my heart of hearts as much as I love my wife and kids and my mom. This is the first words out of my mouth every morning when I wake up and every night before I go to sleep.(Please God in Jesus's name ,Change my heart). I also pray that God will fill my soul with His Holy Spirit so that I may know His words and do His will. This I pray every day and night. Now this is not all that I pray but it is the first and last. Look up that email it's pretty good.
PS I know what love is, but I just don't know if I really FEEL what love is.
Thanks Darren
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In this chapter Paul talking about love ...please note
For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13).
I do not believe that we can attain this perfect love while we are in the flesh.
We can only love inperfectly
(1Jn 4:10) in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.
(1Jn 4:11) Beloved, if thus did God love us, we also ought one another to love;
(1Jn 4:12) God no one hath ever seen; if we may love one another, God in us doth remain, and His love is having been perfected in us;
(1Jn 4:13) in this we know that in Him we do remain, and He in us, because of His Spirit He hath given us.
(1Jn 4:16) and we--we have known and believed the love that God hath in us; God is love, and he who is remaining in the love, in God he doth remain, and God in him.
(1Jn 4:18) fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love;
(1Jn 4:19) we--we love him, because He--He first loved us;
God is LOVE ......God = LOVE We can not attain this state in the flesh
Christ "in us" is the closest we get while here on earth, most of us are just like Peter.....we can barely philelo/ love God right now....and we are not really even good at that. We have such short attention spans and cannot maintain because we are often distracted by the world.
The fact that we believe that God will save ALL...gives us only fraction of feeling of love toward our enemies....because we know they will some day see what we see....but the day will come....
that the elect will be sown as seed for the many called and that these then will be sown for the rest of the world.
only then we will fullfill this scripture
(Joh 15:13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
The last word..."friends" is
G5384 φίλος philos fee'-los
Properly dear, that is, a friend; actively fond, that is, friendly (still as a noun, an associate, neighbor, etc.):
Thanks Roy....stimulate and stir us up
beloved
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Beautiful Beloved, thank you.
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Bobby Proctor,
Your post reply #19. At 04-03-49 p.m. was very good and my thinking also.
Obrenda; you posted lost in love - love thy neighbor. This goes hand in hand with judging yourself.
And Kent, - how you doing my friend? You posted in reply to Obrenda and said if he wants to play Russian rouilette will you give him a revolver? My answer is I don't know; but I know what Jesus said. If a man asks for your cloak give him also your - ahhh (you know what he said). We are all experts at quoting scriptures on this forum. After reading all the posts on the subject of lost in love and the subject of I was just thinking the Lord has inspired me to post on love and judge not - they go hand in hand. And check this out.
I was in the process of posting on this months ago when a very sincere lady that we all know and love told me that my love was all mushy, gushy. It has taken much sincere meditation and studying the word. I ask all of you to check out my post on judge not on 2-17-08 at 10:51 p.m. post #24. And Itlitalienboi 16 - you said you could not wit for that post. Well, brother, if you're reading this you waited.
And folks, this is what Jesus had to say about love:
"God abideth in us and his love is perfected in us. Hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us. He hath given us of his spirit. And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him and he in God. And we know and believe the love which God hath in us. God is love; and he that abideth in love abideth in God; and God abideth in him. And that means we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grevious.
Here are some of the things that make me believe as I believe: Some will quote Mattew 7:1- "Judge not, lest you be judged" - to claim that it is "unchristian" to identify people's sins or those that plague a society. How many times have you heard someone say, "Don't judge me" or "Christians are not to judge others?"
Ask yourself, now can a Christian be expected to stay away from people of bad character, as the Bible commands (1 Cor.5:1-5; 1 Tim. 6:3-6), if he is not allowed to judge their actions - in other words, identify their inappropriate behavior? Also, now could Paul instruct Christians to "mark" and "avoid" divisive people (Rom. 16:7) unless the conduct of such people be examined - unless judgment were made?
The word "judge" in Matthew 7:1 comes from the Greek word "krono" which can mean "to try, condemn, punish" or "to distinguish, decide;" the context depends upon how the word is used.
The apostle John wrote, "God sent not His Son into the world to condemn (krono) the world; but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17). Yet, Paul used this same Greek word to teach that true Christians are in training to judge the whole world - including angels: "Do you now know that the saints shall judge (krinos) the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know you not that we shall judge (krinos) angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Cor. 6:2-3). Four chapters later, he added, "I speak as to wise men;; judge (krinos) you what I say" (1 Cor. 10:15). Obviously, Paul did not intend for the Corinthians to condemn his words, but rather to judge - "decide" - whether he was teaching sound doctrine.
When Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged", he meant that you can sometimes avoid judgment coming upon yourself by avoiding judging others. This does not mean that Christians are never to judge. Rather, in certan situations, it is better to avoid rendering a judgment - a decision about, an evaluation of, conduct or behavior - lest you bring judgment upon yourself. If you decide to judge, be careful, as whatever standard you use to render a decision will be used on yourself: "For with what judgment you judge you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again" (Matt. 7:2).
Consider. If Jesus had meant Christians should never judge, period, then, He would have contradicted Himself when He said "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge (krinos) righteous judgment (John 7:24). Christ clearly stated that christians are to judge others. However, we are to use righteous judgment. If a person judges righteously, he will avoid judgment coming upon himself.
Most overlook John 7:24 and focus only on Matthew 7:1. They fail to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together, thus they stumble and are snared (Isa. 28:13).
The key to understanding John 7:24 is found beginning three verses earlier. Referring to His healing a man on the Sabbath day, to which the Pharisees vehemently objected, "Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and you all marvel." According to the Pharisees, healing on the Sabbath was considered work, so they accused Him of breaking the Sabbath.
In verses 22-23, Jesus continues His discourse: "Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision...and you on the Sabbath day circumsice a man (according to the law of Moses, a male child was to be circumcised eight days after being born, which would sometimes fall on the Sabbath.) If a man on the Sabbath day receive circumcision that the law of Moses should not be broken; are you angry at Me, beause I have made a man every whit whole on the Sabbath day?
The Pharisees constantly accused Christ of deviating from the Law of Moses. They claimed to uphold this law down to the last jot and tittle. Jesus used this to His advantage and asked them why they considered it lawful to circumcise a child on the Sabbath, but unlawful to make "a man every whit whole"? Christ ponted out the hypocrisy of such "logic". (Recall the example was examined earlier concering Mark 2:27-28.)
This brings us to John 7:24: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." Jesus said this to the Pharisees in this context because they were judging his actions according to sight, and not by God's law. In other words, they used human reasoning rather than God's standard of righteousness, defined by His law. Thus, they brought judgment upon themselves.
When Jesus was in the flesh, He too had to rely on God to judge righteously: "I can of My own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and My judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which has sent Me" (John 5:30). Since the Pharisees were not seeking the will of God and were not obeying His commandments, they could not judge correctly.
Finally, consider Christ's statement in John 8: "You judge after the flesh; you judge no man. And yet if I judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me" (vs. 15-16). These verses reveal that Jesus did not judge after the flesh or according to sight. Instead, He judged righteously because He relied on the Father, just as Christians are to do. The Father did the judging through Jesus. But this occurred only because Jesus sought the Father's will and obeyed Him, as Christians are to do.
Like so many of the Bible's teachings, the subject of judging is widely misunderstood. This is because the majority focuses only on Matthew 7:1 and does not take into account the numerous other verses on the subject. Again, most fail to put all of the pieces of the large biblical puzzle together (Isa. 28:10).
It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God"
And as far as we know, there is only one God - our Father almighty and creator - hallelujah!!!
Now, folks, take into consideration all these words mean nothing. But now, I'm gonna tell you what means everything. Jesus said THROUGH FAITH AND GRACE YOU ARE SAVED. Hallelujah
In the name of Jesus Christ, Dewey & Paula try to love all people who will let us
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Very nice dewey, ;D
If you had not felt the sting in your post from before (and I'm asking) would you have known love in this way?
It is how God teaches us is it not?
Some of us have felt the sting more than others and on these I won't judge, we all learn, its what we're here for.
Great post!
Peace.
Randy
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good point randy , now you know why it took so long for me to get back ,now you know a whole lot more about me than most.
Vangie what on Gods green earth is a spagdehetti alien, thats a frist for me , but its a good one . in his spirit love yuans ,dewey
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I removed the post Dewey's referring to--accidentally posted when I meant to preview--oops. Good to see you back Dewey!
Love in Christ,
Vangie
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Hi there Roy,
none of us love God fully, were all out for ourselves when push comes to shove, even when we do a good deed it puffs us up inside. I can start by trying to fully appriciate what Christ has done for us all though at Calvary, even though my sin shows I'm way off achieving that goal. But at least it's a goal, and a race worth running.
I say I love my kids and at times dissapoint them or fail to connect with them because I'm too busy surfing the net or watching TV. I say I love my wife but I don't work hard enough at giving her the things she wants, like a holiday once a year or a sympathetic ear after a hard day at work. I say a lot of things, but at least I know that God first loved me and that He's in the driving seat and I'm just along for the ride and that every word out of my mouth He predestined.
So I guess so far in my life no I don't love God properly, I don't love anyone fully, not even myself, I don't really know what love is in comparrison to that day on the hill of the skull.But when I'm face to face with him...then I'll know and I won't be face to face with him for long I'll be looking at his feet.
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Hi! All
Please note that I'm in no way deviating from Ray's teachings, on the contrary I am fully in accord with them that is why I'm on this site in the first place to support not fault.
Thank you all both supporters and detractors, your input is very welcome it gives us a starting point if we keep a clear and unbiased mind. I will emphasize once again I am not a teacher nor am I in a position to teach but learn from people like Ray, the moderators and you kind and loving members. We are all entitled to our own opinions and I thank you all for your frankness. I mean no offense to anyone, including you brother musicman I appreciate your input and if I have inadvertently offended please accept my sincere apology and when I apologize I mean it from the heart, believe me. I am only sharing God's Word as He speaks to me and each and everyone of us, so let's share in harmony and peace, I enjoy reading what He is saying to each and everyone of you as you share it in your individual posts with me. All I ask is that you please give His message to me a fair run as I share it with you.
I see from the post that there are quite a number who are prepared to try and follow my thread and I will direct this to you so as to cause no offense to those who do not wish to know and wish to criticize purely for criticisms sake.
Beloved, Joe, OBenda, KristaD, Darren and Vangie. Yes indeed Matt.22:37-40 is truly still alive and kicking and that is the Scripture heading to where I'm going on this thread. As to the "YES" or "NO" is it of man or God? I didn't mean the lukewarm to be personal it was directed at the subject in question. I now see my error and why I'm being accused of being judgmental though inadvertently, and I will repent of this sin and here and now sincerely apologize to musicman and ask his forgiveness.
1...."Jesus said unto him, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets'". (Matt.22:37-40)
2...."Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD.” Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground. Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” (Gen4:1-7)
3.... “But when you present the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Why not offer it to your governor? Would he be pleased with you? Or would he receive you kindly?” says the Lord of hosts. “But now will you not entreat God’s favor, that He may be gracious to us? With such an offering on your part, will He receive any of you kindly?” says the Lord of hosts. “Oh that there were one among you who would shut the gates, that you might not uselessly kindle fire on My altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the Lord of hosts, “nor will I accept an offering from you. “For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord of hosts." (Mai.1:8-11).
3..... ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’ (Rev.2:7)
4......‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’ (Rev.2:11).
5......‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’ (Rev.2:17).
6.......‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;" (Rev.2:26).
7.......‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Rev3:5).
8.......‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (Rev.3:12).
9......‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev.3:21).
‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ ”
Ray teaches us that the whole Bible is a parable and I believe that he is right. Not just Revelation but the complete Bible is a parable and must be read as such in the SPIRIT.
I see a spiritual connection between all the Scriptures I have quoted and my question "DO YOU LOVE GOD?" and the beast within who is cunningly deceiving us.
It defeats the purpose of the exercise if I tell you what I believe, we should all study them in prayer and try to discover what they are saying to us regardless of what they are saying to me. When Evangie plunged for (Matt.22:37-40), I thought she had the answer but then she drifted on to my critics and was thrown of her path.
Beloved you are so very near. Indeed it all centres round the first three commandments but the thorn lies in the second command. It is that thorn we are trying to locate and name.
I will download and post out to Dewey the entire Old and New Testaments, as his supply must have worn out by now, because all he seems to be able to do is throw the Scriptures at each and everyone haphazard which is far from edifying and doesn't seem to have a clue as to what he is talking about.
Randy I don't understand what stung you. Was it a bee? Horseflies can cause a nasty swelling.
I emailed Bobby Proctor on a PM maybe he'd like to post it here for all to share. Would you Bobby?
Darren I can see your point, but I'm not talking about earthly love for mother, father, friends and neighbours, but a Godly love which requires much, much more than we are normally accustomed to here on earth, you will find that love described beautifully in 1Cor.13. An entire chapter devoted to that one topic so it must be very important, don't you think?
Hi! Joe you're a real comforter but why have you gone and robbed me of the cream.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Here is our "beast" the carnal mind)
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Fantastic Joe it is all truly about the Spirit and the hand of God. You and Beloved have quoted the correct Scriptures that I am basing my thoughts on.
Deep within me I feel that everyone of you is seeing what I am going on about and I give all thanks and glory to God because this has been on my mind for quite sometime now and it is not by accident that I have ventured to post it on this forum. I had a good idea that there would be differences of opinion but I never expected the mean spirited criticism I received. Thank you Beloved for your forewarning post God bless you.
But one person, OBrenda, has truly nailed it, that is to say what this post is all about, here is her post;
Well Roy,
IMHO...The beast within me is what I also understand as the Ego/Carnial Mind. Which calls itself "I". It sees itself as separate from others, where comes forth pride and judgement and loneliness. It identifies itself with physical things, which produces Lust and Greed. (What car I drive, what I do for Work, What Church I go to) When the scriptures tell us WE are "ONE" body....with many parts...."ONE" tree with many Limbs.
So the one that says "I" in me is the beast.
So No "I" do not Love GOD!
But greater is he that is in me, than he that is in the World (Satan)
But the creation and workmanship that is HIM that works in me, Loves God Dearly!
Without a doubt HE who (now please don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting or inferring anything, I know how this can go wrong. I have already messed things up with musicman and had to go down on my knees for his forgiveness because it was not meant in the way it was taken, so please bear with me) is in you Loves God dearly, but the "I" is still sharing space with Him and it is that "I" which speaks for you in Satan's world outside you. "DO YOU LOVE GOD?"
Do you follow what I'm trying to say? That beast has to be brought out of hiding and exposed before the Spirit within you can assist you to overcome him. As long as he is in hiding he is absolutely safe.
Now Brenda we are on really sticky ground, we cannot sit on our laurels and say the One within is greater than him without, we have a command repeated 7 times further up "Overcome". Overcome what if not the "I" within. The Spirit will help you but you have to do your bit as well. You mention Pride, Lust, Greed, judgment but left out one more deadly than the lot. I remember seeing a Hollywood film called "Pride and Prejudice" so let's throw in this last sin which has to be overcome.
How do we all fare now, think hard and long about it and pray because it is the deadliest sin against our neighbour. With that on our plate can we still say "WE LOVE GOD?" "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also." (1Jn.4:20,21). Prejudice is next door to hate if not worse. Remember Miriam and what God thought of prejudice.
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1Cor.10:12)
God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Roy,
Where have I ever attacked you that you insist on calling me out by name?
You have not as yet PM'd me so I don't know what you are talking about... post it yourself if you are so inclined.
Since you have called me out twice now however I will remind you that we are here to discuss and question what we learn on bible-truths.com. The guidelines state "If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere." Since you have addressed me as you have I will let you know that I'm not inclined to appreciate your "exercises"... I am here to discuss with like-minded friends what I learn on bible-truths.com... and that's it.
Bobby
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Hi Roy,
I believe this thread has caused many to do some soul searching and meditate deeper on our One on one relationship with God and His Spirit, I also want to thank you for the kind words you directed toward me.
However, (always a "but" or "however') you seemed to miss my comment (in blue) directly after Romans 8:7;
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Here is our "beast" the carnal mind)
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The beast is our carnal nature, our ego, our old man, etc. It is the natural man in his natural state, vain, self serving and the center of the universe (in his/our own minds).
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
But we know this is all part of the process of being created into Sons and Daughters of God, it was not our idea to have this nature but the plan of our Father in heaven. (More from Romans Chapter 8)
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
His Peace and Wisdom to you all,
Joe
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Hi! Joe
Thanks for your early response.
It's very true that we were created with the same breath as the beasts and as such have no preeminence over them. But that's as far as it goes, the beast is not being created in the image of God, hence the carnal brain of man who is being created in the image of God is by virtue of that fact far superior than that of the beast. And as you say it is this carnal mind that is enmity to God therefore we in the flesh cannot please God. And there is no denying the fact that the creature was created subject to vanity and not willingly, that's how God planned it in accord with His Will and not ours.
I see that as the challenge He has set us which we must overcome to enter the kingdom and that carnal mind is what I believe Ray refers to as the "Beast Within." That is only my humble opinion, Joe, but that's how it appears to me. This is where I believe Satan has planted his tares in the midst of the wheat harvest, our neighbours. And it's these troublesome tares that have to be located, exposed and overcome.
We cannot sit back complacently and leave it all to the Spirit within to deal with, as suggested by Brenda, even though He is greater than the enemy without. Tares belong to Satan and Satan is in the world so they have to be exposed and brought out into Satan's world before they can be overcome with the aid of Him who is within.
You see Joe this whole thing is so clear but jumbled up in my brain that I am afraid of making a mess of it, I am not truly capable of expressing it clearly. Why the Lord has prompted me with it I don't know. All I know is that I have been constantly prodded into this situation, and I need the members prayers as much as anyone else on this forum. Am I making any sense, Joe. I have always respected, Kathy's, Joyce's, Beloved's, yours and everyone else's advice and all of you except for a few have been truly helpful and I'm grateful.
I deeply regret my grave error in musicmans post and other than a heartfelt apology I know of no other way to make amends. I will PM him a personal apology and pray he'll forgive my indiscretion.
I'm a bit confused at the moment Joe so please excuse me, God willing I'll feel a lot better tomorrow.
God bless you in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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I am lost. I have not seen anyone disagreeing yet this keeps going back and forth. No one has denied that we all have the beast within us and that we are incapable of loving God as He commands without his help. I keep feeling that we are all being accused and I really don't know what of??? Perhaps Roy you have a suggestion as to what we can do, or maybe you are looking for agreement ??? Either way this seems so futile to me b/c we can not do good on our own and we are not able to overcome the beast alone. Is this just a call you feel to make us all ruminate on that fact? If it is then I think that has been accomplished and then some but perhaps He has led you to bring this up for you to hear the words of others and not to make us all understand what you are saying at this time. I am not at all disagreeing with anything that's been said here as it all rings true, but I think we error when we try to "call" others, that's for Him to do and we must accept that some things are for US at certain times and not for others just yet. We're on the same path but by no means are we all in the same place in our journeys.
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Hi Roy,
I thought I would bring these excerpt form the transcript 'HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE,' as Ray mentions that the 'beast' is indeed our carnality within.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html ----------
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show unto His servants, even the things which must shortly(quickly) come to pass: and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John;
v
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Rev 1:08 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
This was not in my notes, but it’s an important thing. Some of you probably have not come to understand that you do not have free will, free moral agency or any of this nonsense that the theologians talk about. You have an illusion of free will. It seems like you have free will, of course it does, it part of the deception of human nature and the beast within. Do you think animals have free will? They act on instinct.
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He just keeps repeating this over and over. That He existed, He was killed, resurrected and He now is and He will come. Everything in this book is and was and will come, see. To every generation who reads this, He’s coming to you. He came in the pass, He is coming now, He’ll come in the future. How does this happen quickly?
It happens to you when you are born and have grown up big enough to read these pages and God opens up your mind. Then you have just so long to change your life, get rid of the beast, get rid of the carnality in you. That’s got to be done quickly
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There are two Greek words in the NT for carnal.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal 4561 mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Thayer Definition:
G4561 sarx - carnal
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature”
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal 4559: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Thayer Definition:
G4559 sarkikos - carnal
1) fleshly, carnal
1a) having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
1a1) governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
1a2) having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature
1a3) human: with the included idea of depravity
1b) pertaining to the flesh
1b1) to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kathy and moderators,
Please don't close or lock this thread until I can reread and copy the pertinent comments.
There is quite a bit to stimulate my self examination and I dread losing it.
Thank you, Indianabob :)
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Hi Friends,
Well, Do We Love God? I think I do much, because I do love myself and this enables me to better love my neighbor. And If loving myself constitutes loving my enemy (ego also), then I shall love it from a distance, until it diminishes into existence. :)
Just a thought, in Jesus name,
Lisa
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Hi! Everyone
Sadly despite my clear statement that I am not a teacher or attempting to teach anyone, I am being accused of teaching and bringing my own ideas on to this forum with the threat of having this thread locked. Ray is my teacher, God bless him, and I will always respect that.
It was through him that our eyes were opened as to who the True Israel of God is, it's us on this forum who have come out of Babylon. Previously I thought they were scattered round the world and in Palestine somewhere in the Jewish community. I praise God for Ray's inspired disclosure. I cannot see in what way I am going against Ray's teaching. His teachings are on a much higher level covering the complete Word of God, what I'm expressing is just a minor prod by the Spirit within me on a single issue. The gap between the two is as wide as the East is to the West, so in what way am I a threat?
Now that we know the location of the true Israel of God it is our duty under a specific command from God (Ezek.3) to take any message He gives us to the people of Israel. All I am guilty of is obeying His command. Am I doing wrong here?
The wheat and the Tares meant little to me until Ray opened the window and now the light that began to shine in me located the Tares and the Wheat. I believe, my opinion only from what I'm being prompted, the wheat are our neighbours the second of God's two commandments and the Tares are Satan's goodies that are being stored up by the "I" the beast within. It's only an opinion, not a teaching, is that not the purpose of this forum to share?
Indeed it has unleashed a mountain of baddies which the beast within has stored up and it seems impossible for us to conquer them all, but are we not taught, by Ray, that all things are possible with God, which is very true?
Joe very kindly drew our attention to a number of Scriptures from Romans that indicated we are in Spirit and we walk in Spirit which is the key to our defense.
Are we not taught that in order to fight the evil forces we must: "10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, 19 and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. 21 But that you also may know about my circumstances, how I am doing, Tychicus, the beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make everything known to you. 22 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, so that you may know about us, and that he may comfort your hearts. 23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love." (Eph.6:10-24).
Is this not what we are being taught on this very site by Ray, so why am I being accused of bringing strange or my own teachings on to it?
Someone suggested that to conquer all these character flaws was an impossible task. I agree, the Bible says so, but it also says that nothing is impossible with God. And Joe has given us the answer to that problem, the Spirit.
Then Brenda suggested that the One within is more powerful than him without. I couldn't agree more and it is in agreement with Ray's teachings.
But now there are two within us The Spirit and the enemy's agent "I" the beast within, also Ray's teaching which I wouldn't have known about had it not been for him. But the Spirit within is powerless to deal with the "I" which belongs to Satan on the outside until it is brought into the light where he can be seen. It is now when he is exposed that we must gird ourselves with the Armour provided by God and attack the "I" and OVERCOME him. (Rev.2:7,11,17,26) (Rev.3:5,12,21).
Ray has emphasized the necessity to OVERCOME it is not my teaching, all I am saying here is what I have learned on this site from Ray and you'll find it all if you take the trouble to read all his writings without me quoting each and every one. The message I posted is mine it is what I received and I am quite innocently sharing it and mean no harm or disrespect for anyone or anything.
Now please tell me where I have gone wrong other than pull you out of your complacency and make you sit up and think? And why the threat of locking the post? If we truly walk by the SPIRIT what is it we are afraid of?
God bless you all, I have only obeyed God's command, nothing else, and if I'm condemned for that so be it. I will dutifully accept your decision. Those who accuse me of introducing my own teachings need to examine their views on being judgmental. "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1Cor.10:12)
God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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his post has been enlightening to me. We come to the forum to fellowship. Yet here we some acting like James and John ....looking to be first.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor.
I agree on some level we are all struggling with answering the question posited. Many posters have made some excellent points. Others seem to be struggling more with Roy. because he seems to be playing a quessing game. The way I see it that he is trying to provoke us to really thinking about this subject.
Those in the "church" are like kids saying .....yes we love you daddy....but their actions speak louder.
What do our actions show? Can we be patient with each other, can we be kind and trusting.
Okay folks I will go first...I am mushey gushey and I am not sure why Dewey posted his comments here rather than on the thread which he started and where he feels he was slighted.
If any of us have a problem with another PM or post it. If you post it you can embarress the other ......do you want to do that? (by the way Dewey I was not one bit upset, in fact I marvel that you held all that that in so long.)
On the other hand we have to be able to take criticisms...being rejected is also part of the training program. Those snide remarks that are some times are made .....hurt....and we have all had them and given them. Sometimes we all need to take a break, rest in the Lord and study the Word more before we can come together.
Second none of us seem to be getting the answer Roy is looking for and we are feeling frustrated and challenged. I know my own posts did not have depth, I wasn't trying to 'get' the answer I was putting a puzzle piece down. I really enjoyed seeing all the different perspectives and hope people will continue to think about it.
This is Robert Frost shortest poem
"We sit in a circle and suppose but the answer sits in the middle and knows".
The Answer is God and His Son Jesus Christ...we are all sitting here with little bits of information. Flotsom and jetsom
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In closing like Gina once said...we gotta play nice...
So true......especially if we children of God want to become the sons of God
Beloved
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Kathy and moderators,
Please don't close or lock this thread until I can reread and copy the pertinent comments.
There is quite a bit to stimulate my self examination and I dread losing it.
Thank you, Indianabob :)
Hi! Indianabob
Thank you for your support, because I believe there is a mountain of truth in this which is not being brought into the light and exposed and then being attacked with the power of the SPIRIT. It frightened the life out of me as it applies to me as does to all who have read it. It is the unavoidable truth and the truth always hurts. But the message I received has been delivered and my conscience is clear, but I still face the difficult task of OVERCOMING.
In closing my defense just posted I left out an essential part of Ray's inspired word;
Where I ended my defense with; "But now there are two within us The Spirit and the enemy's agent "I" the beast within, also Ray's teaching which I wouldn't have known about had it not been for him. But the Spirit within is powerless to deal with the "I" which belongs to Satan on the outside until it is brought into the light where he can be seen. It is now when he is exposed that we must gird ourselves with the Armour provided by God and attack the "I" and OVERCOME him." (Rev.2:7,11,17,26) (Rev.3:5,12,21). I should have ended with God's promise to Eve; "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” (Gen.3:15). The SPIRIT would bruise (CRUSH Ray's word) Satan's head the "I".
God bless you sister and thank you for your support in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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his post has been enlightening to me. We come to the forum to fellowship. Yet here we some acting like James and John ....looking to be first.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor.
I agree on some level we are all struggling with answering the question posited. Many posters have made some excellent points. Others seem to be struggling more with Roy. because he seems to be playing a quessing game. The way I see it that he is trying to provoke us to really thinking about this subject.
Those in the "church" are like kids saying .....yes we love you daddy....but their actions speak louder.
What do our actions show? Can we be patient with each other, can we be kind and trusting.
Okay folks I will go first...I am mushey gushey and I am not sure why Dewey posted his comments here rather than on the thread which he started and where he feels he was slighted.
If any of us have a problem with another PM or post it. If you post it you can embarress the other ......do you want to do that? (by the way Dewey I was not one bit upset, in fact I marvel that you held all that that in so long.)
On the other hand we have to be able to take criticisms...being rejected is also part of the training program. Those snide remarks that are some times are made .....hurt....and we have all had them and given them. Sometimes we all need to take a break, rest in the Lord and study the Word more before we can come together.
Second none of us seem to be getting the answer Roy is looking for and we are feeling frustrated and challenged. I know my own posts did not have depth, I wasn't trying to 'get' the answer I was putting a puzzle piece down. I really enjoyed seeing all the different perspectives and hope people will continue to think about it.
This is Robert Frost shortest poem
"We sit in a circle and suppose but the answer sits in the middle and knows".
The Answer is God and His Son Jesus Christ...we are all sitting here with little bits of information. Flotsom and jetsom
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In closing like Gina once said...we gotta play nice...
So true......especially if we children of God want to become the sons of God
Beloved
Hi Beloved,
All I can add to this is a big AMEN!
Thank you,
Joe
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his post has been enlightening to me. We come to the forum to fellowship. Yet here we some acting like James and John ....looking to be first.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor.
I agree on some level we are all struggling with answering the question posited. Many posters have made some excellent points. Others seem to be struggling more with Roy. because he seems to be playing a quessing game. The way I see it that he is trying to provoke us to really thinking about this subject.
Those in the "church" are like kids saying .....yes we love you daddy....but their actions speak louder.
What do our actions show? Can we be patient with each other, can we be kind and trusting.
Okay folks I will go first...I am mushey gushey and I am not sure why Dewey posted his comments here rather than on the thread which he started and where he feels he was slighted.
If any of us have a problem with another PM or post it. If you post it you can embarress the other ......do you want to do that? (by the way Dewey I was not one bit upset, in fact I marvel that you held all that that in so long.)
On the other hand we have to be able to take criticisms...being rejected is also part of the training program. Those snide remarks that are some times are made .....hurt....and we have all had them and given them. Sometimes we all need to take a break, rest in the Lord and study the Word more before we can come together.
Second none of us seem to be getting the answer Roy is looking for and we are feeling frustrated and challenged. I know my own posts did not have depth, I wasn't trying to 'get' the answer I was putting a puzzle piece down. I really enjoyed seeing all the different perspectives and hope people will continue to think about it.
This is Robert Frost shortest poem
"We sit in a circle and suppose but the answer sits in the middle and knows".
The Answer is God and His Son Jesus Christ...we are all sitting here with little bits of information. Flotsom and jetsom
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In closing like Gina once said...we gotta play nice...
So true......especially if we children of God want to become the sons of God
Beloved
Hi Beloved,
All I can add to this is a big AMEN!
Thank you,
Joe
Dear Beloved, you're speaking my words, dear sister, you're speaking my words and they bring tears to my eyes. Thank you and Joe. This Word has been pressing on me so long that now that it is out it is such an enormous relief that you wouldn't believe it if I told you. I pray God limits His messages to me because they are truly heavy burdens. Ezekiel must have gone through hell and that's putting it mildly.
God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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This Word has been pressing on me so long that now that it is out it is such an enormous relief that you wouldn't believe it if I told you. I pray God limits His messages to me because they are truly heavy burdens.
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Hi Roy,
The more we are given eyes to see the more we are capable of seeing things about ourselves and the world that are truly distressing. Even as we rejoice in His Word once we digest it there comes a bitterness in our (carnal) gut that is undeniable.
Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Peace,
Joe
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I also agree with Beloved and some of the Others, I have enjoyed this post, and have received much out of it.
I perceive Roy's genuine enthusiasm to share, his cup runith over. He is encouraging us to think deeper on a very important foundation, Do We Love God??
In his enthusiasm he may have been short in his comments to some, but isn't this similar to Ray's style/personality?
Haven't we read many emails to Ray that take offence to his manner, and miss the point entirely?
I hope you will forgive me, cuz I am a Babe here, and I don't want to overstep my bounds. But I would like to point out a scripture that Kat posted above, and hope everybody meditates on it: Are we not still carnal if there is envy and strife and divisions among us???
Should we not in this forum be able to......Speak the Truth in Love? And give GRACE to those when struggling to understand an area that is difficult? Consider that we are all still being brought from Glory to Glory, that we are still learning Line upon line, precept upon precept. When we stick our Flag in what we believe today, we are no longer teachable and will stop growing in the knowledge of Him.
That is not to say we don't have a sure Foundation.
If Ray or anyone else expresses opposition to someones belief, they are not attacking the persons character, they are challenging only a "belief/thought". SO if we take our ego/carnal mind out this we will not be so easily offended. Having said that we should always check ourselves before we respond, that we are coming from the Spirit of His Love.
IMVHO
P.S. I also questioned the parable of the tares being possibly our carnial nature recently on another post.
(you can see Kat's answer from Ray's teaching)
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Hi Roy,
The wheat and the Tares meant little to me until Ray opened the window and now the light that began to shine in me located the Tares and the Wheat. I believe, my opinion only from what I'm being prompted, the wheat are our neighbours the second of God's two commandments and the Tares are Satan's goodies that are being stored up by the "I" the beast within.
Just trying to get this straighten out in my mind about the 'wheat and tares.' I believe Ray teaches this parable, like all parables are about the many called and the few chosen. Here is a post from Ray that can be found in the 'Transcripts of Ray's Audio's and More Teachings.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.0.html ---------
[Ray's reply]
I hope I did not insinuate that. We (the ELECT) are the WHEAT, and not the tares. Besides, we cannot be wheat and tares at the same time "growing up TOGETHER" as this parable suggests.
The wheat and the tares grow up TOGETHER in this world: "I pray not that Thou should take them out of the world, but that Thou should keep them FROM THE EVIL" (John `7:15).
The "EVIL" -- "...the TARES are the Children of the wicked one" (Matt. 13:38). We are the "good seed" which are "the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM [the Elect]..." (Matt. 13:38).
We are not "tares," but we do have "chaff," and it is that CHAFF that is burned out of us, not "tares." I pointed this out in my last Installment on HELL:
Here, being baptized (immersed) in fire [pur] is as important and beneficial as being baptized with God's Holy Spirit.
"Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His [threshing] floor, and gather His wheat [wheat is good] into the garner, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12).
Chaff is the bracts enclosing the good, mature wheat, which is removed during threshing-it has no value as food, and so is burned like the wood, hay, and stubble of I Cor. 3:12. The Elect are composed of both the valuable wheat and the worthless chaff, but we are not the tares. Notice that the chaff is "burned up... with unquenchable fire." If this "unquenchable fire" "burns up" the chaff, surely it cannot be eternal. Unquenchable has nothing to do with eternal. Unquenchable fires is Scriptures that are not allowed to be quenched before they are allowed to burn themselves out.
Winnowing Wheat
"He will gather His wheat... but He will burn up the chaff" (Matt. 3:14).
We are the wheat of Jesus' parable, and we have unwanted chaff surrounding our lives. Jesus is not likening some people to wheat and others to chaff. The wheat is not one group and the chaff another, but rather the unwanted chaff belongs to the desired wheat. The wheat is the baby and the chaff is the bath water. We do not throw away the baby with the bath water, but we do throw away the dirty bath water (in this analogy the bath water represents chaff which is burned in fire).
Notice my statement: "we ARE NOT THE TARES," in the middle of the third paragraph.
Hope this clears up your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
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I accept that Ray teaches us "We Are Not The Tares" in this parable.
But I understand my carnal/ego part, to be something within me, but not actually who I truly am in Christ.
It is the Beast within that entwines itself and deceives us, and many don't know he's there. And many believe they are the beast/carnal mind, and call it just being human.
So like you Roy, this parable creates that picture in my mind, of the wheat & the tares to understand a spiritual truth that God's Spirit dwells in me along with the Beast/Carnial Mind. It helped me to see it more clearly, even if that is not what God was exactly referring to in this particular parable. (I don't know if there can be dual truths in a parable) More likely it was just a tool to get a Truth to us, as when the Donkey Spoke.
We certainly know some people are missing the meanings of the Parable entirely.
But Praise God he gave "Revelational Teachings" to Ray to confirm the truth and expose the heresy of Babylon.
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I also agree with Beloved and some of the Others, I have enjoyed this post, and have received much out of it.
I perceive Roy's genuine enthusiasm to share, his cup runith over. He is encouraging us to think deeper on a very important foundation, Do We Love God??
In his enthusiasm he may have been short in his comments to some, but isn't this similar to Ray's style/personality?
Haven't we read many emails to Ray that take offence to his manner, and miss the point entirely?
I hope you will forgive me, cuz I am a Babe here, and I don't want to overstep my bounds. But I would like to point out a scripture that Kat posted above, and hope everybody meditates on it: Are we not still carnal if there is envy and strife and divisions among us???
Should we not in this forum be able to......Speak the Truth in Love? And give GRACE to those when struggling to understand an area that is difficult? Consider that we are all still being brought from Glory to Glory, that we are still learning Line upon line, precept upon precept. When we stick our Flag in what we believe today, we are no longer teachable and will stop growing in the knowledge of Him.
That is not to say we don't have a sure Foundation.
If Ray or anyone else expresses opposition to someones belief, they are not attacking the persons character, they are challenging only a "belief/thought". SO if we take our ego/carnal mind out this we will not be so easily offended. Having said that we should always check ourselves before we respond, that we are coming from the Spirit of His Love.
IMVHO
P.S. I also questioned the parable of the tares being possibly our carnial nature recently on another post.
Hi! Brenda
Thank you for your kind observations. Can you see where I am in any way trying to teach or bring my own teachings on to this forum? Can you see any truth in the accusation that I'm not following the teachings of Ray? Why are these people, not from without but from within, being so mean minded? Have we by some remote chance got some tares not only in us but also in our midst?
The message I delivered was not my word but what I believe to be the Word of God proven by the Scriptures quoted, and all the quotes can be Spiritually compared with other Scriptures in the Bible. We are the real Israel as Ray through Divine inspiration has disclosed to us. This is the Israel to whom I believe I have been commanded to deliver the message (Ezek.3). Regrettably this Israel also is once again rejecting it. Have we not learned anything? You see I cannot say much or I'll be accused of bringing my own teachings in. I have no teachings to bring in in the first place so what are they talking about? I am a learner, that is why I am on this site like you are, and I have learned a tremendous amount but there is a mountain yet to be climbed.
The Lord has been speaking to me, I have to admit, and like Jonah I've shied against it and tried to ignore it but it couldn't be ignored any longer and had to come out. Yes Beloved is perfectly right when she says I played a game with it to start with, I have to be truthful I did but there was a reason, I wanted to see if there was anyone who could see what I was seeing. A Spiritual exercise which is good and edifying, that's what we are here for to help one another. I thought Beloved had it, but she stopped. Then I thought Joe had it and he also stopped short. Then there was one, if I'm not mistaken it was you, Brenda, who nailed it.
The revelation was a shock even to me but I thought it was going fine till the Bobby's and Dewey's had to try to pull it to pieces without any sound foundation other than for criticism's sake. That's a great pity because it is neither edifying or useful to any member on this forum.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Dear Kat,
Excellent quotes from Ray in regards to the wheat and chaff. :)
One thing I am having a problem with in this thread is the ego being explained as the I...I tend to think of the ego as more of an it (the chaff)! Because even God refers to himself as I, so how can that be a bad thing????
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
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Hi Roy...To your question..
Can you see where I am in any way trying to teach or bring my own teachings on to this forum? Can you see any truth in the accusation that I'm not following the teachings of Ray? Why are these people, not from without but from within, being so mean minded? Have we by some remote chance got some tares not only in us but also in our midst?
I think there is a differnce in "Teaching" and "Sharing" my perception was you were "Sharing" a treasure you found with us. I have never seen anything disrespectful to Ray or his teachings from you.
I don't think those that have been offened by what you said are "Tares" I think they honestly Misunderstood your motives, some times people just don't get what is between the lines! And to be FAIR to them, words on a screen can't comunicate everything like our facial expressions for instance. If you read back through your posts, are there places where you could have expressed yourself a little more softer and still made your point?
Now I have a question for you...Do You Love those, who misunderstood You!
Can we all overcome our Carnality to reach a Love that dosen't need to defend itself, but instead prays,
Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do?
Haven't we been reading, He who hates his Brother, Can't Love GOD?
As Iron sharens Iron, why are we suprised and fearful when things get a little heated.
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Hi Roy...To your question..
Can you see where I am in any way trying to teach or bring my own teachings on to this forum? Can you see any truth in the accusation that I'm not following the teachings of Ray? Why are these people, not from without but from within, being so mean minded? Have we by some remote chance got some tares not only in us but also in our midst?
I think there is a difference in "Teaching" and "Sharing" my perception was you were "Sharing" a treasure you found with us. I have never seen anything disrespectful to Ray or his teachings from you.
I don't think those that have been offended by what you said are "Tares" I think they honestly Misunderstood your motives, some times people just don't get what is between the lines! And to be FAIR to them, words on a screen can't communicate everything like our facial expressions for instance. If you read back through your posts, are there places where you could have expressed yourself a little more softer and still made your point?
Now I have a question for you...Do You Love those, who misunderstood You!
Can we all overcome our Carnality to reach a Love that doesn't need to defend itself, but instead prays,
Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do?
Haven't we been reading, He who hates his Brother, Can't Love GOD?
As Iron sharpens Iron, why are we suprised and fearful when things get a little heated.
Hi! Brenda
I don't hate anyone, have I given that impression anywhere in all that I've been saying? If I have then I'm truly sorry but I can't recall any. The times when I've inadvertently given offense and come to realize it, I have immediately tendered a sincere apology. No I don't hate or dislike anyone I just consider them to be a thorn in the flesh but love them all the same. If a short frank and honest response is taken as hate then I'm guilty, but I don't apologize for that because that is how I am and always will be. I prefer it to the concealed dishonest approach you never know what's lurking behind.
I am now going to give you an honest answer from the heart. I do love those who despise or hate me, I may not like them but I certainly do love them and FORGIVE them also. Does that answer your question?
Regarding the tares; I am just wondering if, not accusing, they are a part of the tares, because it has occurred before in a Church established by a person more highly inspired than Ray by the name of Paul and it happened to him. Just wondering not accusing, could it happen again? They were also from within if you remember.
I dare say there are places where my posts could have been expressed a bit better and clearer way, but I'm no different to anyone else in that respect we are all human, carnal and fallible. It is a very difficult thing to do, have you not noticed Ray's teachings, how he has to repeat, capitalize and highlight over and over again to get his point home. Now that is teaching and good teaching so we can all understand but even then sometimes we don't. Sadly I don't have that privilege, because if I did try to do it everyone would be down on me like a ton of bricks. You're teaching, that's not allowed, we have a teacher! As if I didn't know, I'm grateful as he is the same person who is teaching me, the only difference is I'm learning and not just finding fault with others. We can't seem to win.
This forum I believe is for discussing topics to try and answer questions that are worrying some, and not for just exchanging Scriptural verses which is what I see in the case of Dewey who filled a full page with Scripture, if anyone could have cut it short it was him, but don't get me wrong I honestly do love that guy, he makes me laugh and I love a good laugh and complain at the same time. Joke Ha!Ha!
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Hi Again Roy,
Every single Person that God has put in my path has been a "Teacher" to me. Even if they are only a "Screamming Example" of what not to do. I understand Beloved is a Doctor, she has taught me here on this Forum, by sharing her knowledge that I am completely ignorant of. There are several people here that have taught me here, by sharing their understanding, and they have helped to straighten my crooked thinking.
I think we are all teaching and learning from one another here, I don't know if its possible not to? I have no idea what all the walking on eggshells is all about, but I trust the moderators have seen allot and Do what they believe is Best. I had one of my post Locked Out. And I learned a great deal from it.
But I Completely Trust they made a choice from Wisdom and Caring for the Flock!
When you read several posts here, in one subject there is a person who is asking a question that seems simple, and in the next post that same person is imparting great insight. I can be a Good Disciple one day and a complete FOOL the next. Whomever God wants me to be, its OK....I don't want pride coming in (again).
When I read your post here, I feel like I've been hugged by my Dad. You exude fatherly Love, and what good Father doesn't want to share his wisdom?? I can't think of one. You don't need to apologize for your personality , some will find it a blessing, some will feel threatened. Thanks just the way it is. I for one find you a Delight!
I think it's more important to Love One Another, finding agreement is secondary,...and in the hands of our GOD!
He can fix this, everything is OK!
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Hi all,
I have watched this topic and seen all points and what came to mind is a poem i actually seen posted in BTF. It will probable be moved but feel i should post it.
THE CHOSEN VESSEL
By R. Cornwall
The Master was searching for a vessel to use;
On the shelf there were many--which one would He choose?
Take me, cried the gold one, I'm shiny and bright,
I'm of great value and I do things just right.
My beauty and luster will outshine the rest
And for someone like You, Master, gold would be the best!
The Master passed on with no word at all;
He looked at a silver urn, narrow and tall;
I'll serve You, dear Master, I'll pour out Your wine
And I'll be at Your table whenever You dine,
My lines are so graceful, my carvings so true,
And my silver will always compliment You.
Unheeding the Master passed on to the brass,
It was widemouthed and shallow, and polished like glass.
Here! Here! cried the vessel, I know I will do,
Place me on Your table for all men to view.
Look at me, called the goblet of crystal so clear,
My transparency shows my contents so dear,
Though fragile am I, I will serve You with pride,
And I'm sure I'll be happy Your house to abide.
The Master came next to a vessel of wood,
Polished and carved, it solidly stood.
You may use me, dear Master, the wooden bowl said,
But I'd rather You used me for fruit, not for bread!
Then the Master looked down and saw a vessel of clay.
Empty and broken it helplessly lay.
No hope had the vessel that the Master might choose,
To cleanse and make whole, to fill and to use.
Ah! This is the vessel I've been hoping to find,
I will mend and use it and make it all Mine.
I need not the vessel with pride of its self;
Nor the one who is narrow to sit on the shelf;
Nor the one who is bigmouthed and shallow and loud;
Nor one who displays his contents so proud;
Not the one who thinks he can do all things just right;
But this plain earthy vessel filled with My power and might.
Then gently He lifted the vessel of clay.
Mended and cleansed it and filled it that day.
Spoke to it kindly. "There's work you must do,
Just pour out to others as I pour into you."
We are all clay pots, being created in His )THE CHOSEN VESSEL
By R. Cornwall
The Master was searching for a vessel to use;
On the shelf there were many--which one would He choose?
Take me, cried the gold one, I'm shiny and bright,
I'm of great value and I do things just right.
My beauty and luster will outshine the rest
And for someone like You, Master, gold would be the best!
The Master passed on with no word at all;
He looked at a silver urn, narrow and tall;
I'll serve You, dear Master, I'll pour out Your wine
And I'll be at Your table whenever You dine,
My lines are so graceful, my carvings so true,
And my silver will always compliment You.
Unheeding the Master passed on to the brass,
It was widemouthed and shallow, and polished like glass.
Here! Here! cried the vessel, I know I will do,
Place me on Your table for all men to view.
Look at me, called the goblet of crystal so clear,
My transparency shows my contents so dear,
Though fragile am I, I will serve You with pride,
And I'm sure I'll be happy Your house to abide.
The Master came next to a vessel of wood,
Polished and carved, it solidly stood.
You may use me, dear Master, the wooden bowl said,
But I'd rather You used me for fruit, not for bread!
Then the Master looked down and saw a vessel of clay.
Empty and broken it helplessly lay.
No hope had the vessel that the Master might choose,
To cleanse and make whole, to fill and to use.
Ah! This is the vessel I've been hoping to find,
I will mend and use it and make it all Mine.
I need not the vessel with pride of its self;
Nor the one who is narrow to sit on the shelf;
Nor the one who is bigmouthed and shallow and loud;
Nor one who displays his contents so proud;
Not the one who thinks he can do all things just right;
But this plain earthy vessel filled with My power and might.
Then gently He lifted the vessel of clay.
Mended and cleansed it and filled it that day.
Spoke to it kindly. "There's work you must do,
Just pour out to others as I pour into you."
We are all clay pots, being created in His spiritual image. Someone said to me today, "if i am obedient all my life and someone repents after He comes, how is that fair or just" That made me feel so sad, and think, fair and just for who??? I beleive we all in here, are searching, are growing and being chastened. All of this is part of His plan to reconcile ALL creation back to the Father, Christ Himself will hand all power back.
YLT
(1Co 15:22) for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
(1Co 15:23) and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
(1Co 15:24) then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power--
(1Co 15:25) for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet--
(1Co 15:26) the last enemy is done away--death;
Peace and God Bless
Sandie
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Sandy...All I have to say to that is......."That Was BEAUTIFUL" and Thank You!
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Brenda,
ALL glory to Him xx
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I certainly have not accused you of teaching, Roy, and even if you were I would not consider that a bad thing. God can give words to a donkey and He can certainly use any one of us to give a message as well. I respect that you felt that you had a message to share but I do not respect the accusations that have come with it and the inability to accept our answers. We have nearly ALL said that NO we DO NOT love God as we should, yet you accuse us of denying that over and over again. We are not all sitting complacently claiming to love God and just "pruning" ourselves, maybe some are but you have made a blanket statement that accuses all but you. I have seen nothing but agreement here and yet you keep coming back with more words. How many of those words have been from God and how many were yours? I don't want to see this topic locked or removed, I think intelligent discusions are great and your point was a very valid one but perhaps your ego is making you unable to let it go b/c it did not at this moment get the repsonse that you wanted. Let us take what you have said and keep it in our hearts and LET GOD work in us, it's not for you to drive the word home. He says no word will return to Him void so trust that and stop accusing us all of complacency and being tares just b/c we did't have the reaction to the message that you wanted. You still have not posted anything that is a solution to the problem that you've brought to our attention so I can't see much more coming from this. I have not seen where you have expressed any further understanding of this word than we do so why should we all be expected to agree with the exact words that you use?? If HE gives you further clarity in this matter than please share it but for now it seems to me that you said what you were supposed to and got us all thinking. You delivered the message, thank you, we agree on the important part now stop pounding it in, God will give us the understanding of it in the right time.
The division and strife that I have seen on this board are so sickening to me. We have ALL been chosen by God to reveal some of His most glorious truths to, can we not all repsect that about each other and listen to each other and think "surely He speaks to them to, who am I to argue? I certainly do not myself have all the understanding." ????? When it comes to expanding on and interpreting the scriptures we must see our individuality, not everyone will get the message at the same time. We have all agreed here and yet there is arguing b/c people are saying the same thing with different words or stressing a different part of a scripture; that's just plain sad.
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Krista,
be still and know that He is God
xx
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I have been asked by Dewey to correct my statement and am happy to do so
Here is what I said
Okay folks I will go first...I am mushey gushey and I am not sure why Dewey posted his comments here rather than on the thread which he started and where he feels he was slighted.
This is what it should have said
I am the person that referred to Dewey in his post about mushey gushey type love.
Dewey did not say that I was the one who was mushey gushey or that my love was mushey gushey because saying that would be judgemental.
Here is a link to the original post so you who do not know what is being spoken of can read it….
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6556.0.html
What I was attempting when I wrote this was to take blame for any of the confusion that the post that Dewey posted on judgement may have caused and it looks like it backfired. :P
I am involved in some extremely interesting studies right now and would prefer to go back to it, but I wanted to honor this request.
I am going to take my little pencil and Bible and go and listen to and talk to God for now.
beloved :)
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Krista,
be still and know that He is God
xx
I'm sorry but I can only be still and know that GOD IS GOD, not Roy or anyone else here.
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Krista,
God bless you thats exactly who i was referring to as HE.....................Christ
xx
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I look at the world, and the mess it is in, and I am sometimes less than thankful and loving for being dumped into this cesspool world system.
I didn't ask for this.
So there are times that I am not so loving towards God, or other people for that matter. Sometimes I'd rather just go into a corner and hopefully have God and people in gereral just leave me alone.
I'd say that on my own, I don't love God all the time. IMO that is the result of keeping focused on temporal matters. But imo temporal matters have to be dealt with because if they are not, we are in for another dark age. I'd rather fight and die than live as a slave to the "elites" in some police state.
If that makes me a wheat, tare, or chaff, whatever, so be it.
That is out of my hands. I dont presume to think I am "elect" just because I finally found the answer to "eternal hell" teachings, even though I thank God for revealing this to me.
He is the One that picks me up and carries me on, even when I just want to be left alone.
It's His love that matters, because I have a pretty good idea how weak I am.
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James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.
v. 19-20 Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.
Every so often we have a thread get started that people do not totally agree on. Some people just can not let something go and keep at it until they dig a hole too deep to climb out of. Thankfully this thread hasn't gotten to that yet and hopefully it will not continue until it gets out of hand, because there are the ingredients here that it can.
We have discussed the beast here and I hope if anyone is feeling a sense of anger, please recognize where it is coming from and do not post unless you resolve that feeling first. This is not directed toward anybody in particular, there just seems to be a negative tone coming through in some of the posts.
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I certainly have not accused you of teaching, Roy, and even if you were I would not consider that a bad thing. God can give words to a donkey and He can certainly use any one of us to give a message as well. I respect that you felt that you had a message to share but I do not respect the accusations that have come with it and the inability to accept our answers. We have nearly ALL said that NO we DO NOT love God as we should, yet you accuse us of denying that over and over again. We are not all sitting complacently claiming to love God and just "pruning" ourselves, maybe some are but you have made a blanket statement that accuses all but you. I have seen nothing but agreement here and yet you keep coming back with more words. How many of those words have been from God and how many were yours? I don't want to see this topic locked or removed, I think intelligent discusions are great and your point was a very valid one but perhaps your ego is making you unable to let it go b/c it did not at this moment get the response that you wanted. Let us take what you have said and keep it in our hearts and LET GOD work in us, it's not for you to drive the word home. He says no word will return to Him void so trust that and stop accusing us all of complacency and being tares just b/c we didn't have the reaction to the message that you wanted. You still have not posted anything that is a solution to the problem that you've brought to our attention so I can't see much more coming from this. I have not seen where you have expressed any further understanding of this word than we do so why should we all be expected to agree with the exact words that you use?? If HE gives you further clarity in this matter than please share it but for now it seems to me that you said what you were supposed to and got us all thinking. You delivered the message, thank you, we agree on the important part now stop pounding it in, God will give us the understanding of it in the right time.
The division and strife that I have seen on this board are so sickening to me. We have ALL been chosen by God to reveal some of His most glorious truths to, can we not all repsect that about each other and listen to each other and think "surely He speaks to them to, who am I to argue? I certainly do not myself have all the understanding." ????? When it comes to expanding on and interpreting the scriptures we must see our individuality, not everyone will get the message at the same time. We have all agreed here and yet there is arguing b/c people are saying the same thing with different words or stressing a different part of a scripture; that's just plain sad.
Dear Krista
I think that what Kathy suggests is the best idea here, to let the matter drop. I have done my part and delivered the message I believe God has given me to deliver to the newly discovered nation of the Israel of God, which is us. (Ezek.3).
I strongly refute your statement that I was making a blanket accusation as you suggest. Perhaps I should not have done it in the way I did, and I openly apologize to all who may have been offended by it, but Beloved saw what I was about, it was intended as a peaceful and Godly exercise in Spiritual discernment not a carnal brawl as it is has turned out to be.
If you have noticed, Ray takes great pains in repeating, capitalizing and highlighting important parts of his teaching to make things as clear as it is possible and even then some don't get it, I wonder for why? I could be accused of teaching if I used that method, but unfortunately I am not a teacher and do not have his inspiration and ability. If he told us just the once, then we would have to use our brains and discernment of the Spirit within to find the answer. That in my opinion is better learning than if we sat back complacently and waited for the teacher to do all the hard work for us.
Anyway I was wrong in trying to let the members use their own powers of discernment by holding back on the answer which I believe the Spirit was giving me. Once again in all humility I apologize for this gross error on my part which seems to have upset so many of you lovely people, this was not my intent. There is much more that could be truly edifying but I think it is time for the administrators to step in and block this thread. In any case I will not be contributing to it any more.
I have been asked in an undiplomatic (unloving) way to stop the pounding. Your wish is my command, I pray God does open your mind and give you the answers, your salvation depends on it. Not my words KristaD, Ray's teaching, conference 2006 "What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom?" "What is The Father's Will?" -- "A Stern Warning" -- "But What Is The Father's Will?" Read them KristaD before you make accusations please, but regardless I still love you.
But I do not apologize to anyone for opening this thread, because I believe, as disclosed to us by the inspired word given to Ray, that we are the true Israel of God for whom this message was intended. I have done my duty and obeyed my God's command, my conscience is clear.
“For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; 7 yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate." (Ezek.3:5-7). I can assure you these are not my words KristaD.
Thank you for your input, I love you all including my detractors. Pride & Prejudice, beware!
God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK