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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Joey Porter on April 27, 2006, 11:03:05 PM
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I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense). This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.
However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action. Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer? Thanks.
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I had the same thought. If the word means "creating" and not "created" (past tense) then is the world and heavens still being "created"?
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It doesn't really matter because God calls those things that will be as if they already are.
Genesis 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
[/b]
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Bob,
Good point. The Romans verse you shared was used in a teaching I once read by 'ole' AP Adams on this subject. He said that there are two accounts of creation in the first two chapters of Genesis. He said that account one is from 1:1-2:4 and that God is speaking prophetically calling that which is to be as though it were because if God spoke it His word will not return void and it will come to pass.
In 2:4 we actually have the beginning of that formative process that was spoken 'to be'. God has not yet rested in his work with creation even as Jesus spoke:
JOH 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
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I don't know anything about Hebrew or tenses, but the Concordant version translated it as this:
Gen 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
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Sometimes our own experiences that God has given us speaks louder than words. Can any of us honestly say or think that God is not creating us into a new creature?
God bless,
Gary
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this is the best i could find
Genesis 1:27
Wayibraa' 'Elohiym 'et - haa'aadaam btsalmow btselem 'Elohiym baaraa' 'otow zaakaar uunqeebaah baaraa' 'otaam
it's should be the original text but i can't translate it but if anyone can there it is
something i do know is the word hadaam is translated man but a more proper translation is humanity.so it should go god is creating humanity in his image
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the (Contemporary English Version)and the (Young's Literal Translation) sounds on topic with ray and that's two witnesses but in the end i believe were still being created to be in his likeness
(New International Version)
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
(New American Standard Bible)
27God created man (A)in His own image, in the image of God He created him; (B)male and female He created them.
(The Message)
27God created human beings;
he created them godlike,
Reflecting God's nature.
He created them male and female.
(Amplified Bible)
27So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them
(New Living Translation)
27
So God created people in his own image;
God patterned them after himself;
male and female he created them.
(King James Version)
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(English Standard Version)
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them
(Contemporary English Version)
27So God created humans to be like himself; he made men and women
(New King James Version)
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
(21st Century King James Version)
27So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them
(American Standard Version)
27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them
(Young's Literal Translation)
27And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them
(Darby Translation)
27And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(New Life Version)
27And God made man in His own likeness. In the likeness of God He made him. He made both male and female.
(Holman Christian Standard Bible)
27 So God created man in His own image;
He created him in the image of God;
He created them male and female.
(New International Reader's Version)
27So God created man in his own likeness.
He created him in the likeness of God.
He created them as male and female
(New International Version - UK)
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God
he created him;
male and female
he created them.
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When the Israelites built the tent called the Tabernacle, it was an image of the real one in Heaven. Romans 5: Adam was a type of Christ to come.
If God had created Adam to be exactly like God:
1) He would not have had flesh to be tempted by but would have been a spirit.
2) He never would have sinned.
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That is right LM. If man was created at first as a done fact, in Gods image, that would make God a sinner. We know thats not so. WE are a process in making.
Roms8:29-For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of the son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethern.
1Cor15:49-And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly.
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That is right LM. If man was created at first as a done fact, in Gods image, that would make God a sinner. We know thats not so. WE are a process in making.
Roms8:29-For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of the son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethern.
1Cor15:49-And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly.
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one day blessing, comfort, revelation, and great joy
the next day trials, tribulation, chastening, scourging, testing
LOL! oh it's a process alright, as so many have wonderfully pointed out here !
Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
well our light affliction LOL! light affliction, it's all in the point of view
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
i love that verse Kevin quoted
1Cor15:49-And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly.
very comforting verse in trials
f
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Jesus Christ is the True Image of God!
When reading the OT remember:
Heb 10:1
For the law [OT] having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Jer 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
1Co 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Col 1:15
Who [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
It's always been a process! Let us follow our Lord's example.
Heb 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
And we like Paul can say:
Col 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Deedle :D
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I had the same thought. If the word means "creating" and not "created" (past tense) then is the world and heavens still being "created"?
It would make perfect sense from a scientific point of view, and it would mean that we are still on the 6th day, or the day of man. The next age would be the age that God rest in? So we have yet to reach the 7th day.
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[KJV] GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...
There is a cry from the seed/spirit that is in every man. And the spirit/seed that's in every man, came from "the Father of spirits" and "God of the spirits of all flesh". Every human is born with an inherent desire to manifest the likeness of Him.
Every human is in His image and pursuing "after His likeness". Unfortunately the unsaved world is still seeking via the tree of knowledge, and the nominal church has distorted the truth about Him and therefore his likeness also. For that reason, it has raised a bunch of children who are the product of that distored likeness.
Adam and Eve weren't 'like' God and that's why the devil tempted them in that very area...of likeness.
[RSV] GEN 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The cry of their spirit was to be "like" God but they partook of the soulish deception of acheiving that goal. But God wants us to know good and evil from the perspective of the tree of life...and not "the tree of knowledge/experience of good and evil". Adam and Eve's 'soulish deception' is what sentenced them to being dying souls instead of the 'living souls' they were, when they walked in obedience.
It appears that man was/is created and formed in the "image of God" but that we must grow "after" His character to manifest His likeness. If I say you're the spitting image of your father I mean you look like him. And if I say you're just like your father I mean you act like him. By image, I think we are a triune being of spirit, soul, body. He is a triune being of Father, Son, Spirit. He is "like" the fruit of the Spirit and so also must we become like Him...in that same character.
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Thanks to all for the replies and research.
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lightseeker
neither Ray nor Mike or hardly anyone here at bt accepts the doctrine of the trinity!
it's a false doctrine lightseeker
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
have a read and see what you think
f
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ertsky
neither Ray nor Mike or hardly anyone here at bt accepts the doctrine of the trinity!
it's a false doctrine lightseeker
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
have a read and see what you think
f
Thanks for the feedback on that local doctrinal POV. I'll take a look at the teaching. I don't fully accepts many of the traditional points concerning the doctrine to begin with. But the point of us being a trinity is consisitant with the image concept...I think. :wink: I often fellowship with people who are considered as "cults" :evil: by the nominal church, simply because they don't believe in the trinity doctrine. I respond with the fact that nothing in the bible requires belief in the trinity for being birthed into the family of God. And I haven't found a person or group yet that didn't have what I considered to be 'false doctrine'. I'm sure I do...and if I knew which part was false I'd change it.
I now just tell people, "It's good to have the opinion that you are right, but it is bad to have the opinion that everyone else is wrong." I've come to that position from 34 years of changing my doctrinal opinions. 8)
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it seems pretty straight forward to me Lightseeker :)
the trinity is a false doctrine
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
it is bad to have the opinion that everyone else is wrong
Lightseeker that sort of statement doesn't fit at all into my understanding of faithfulness to the doctrine of Christ
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
or
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
i have no unity with trinitarians, they are decieved
i should know i used to be one :) how i rue the day i accepted that false doctrine.
are you a trinitarian Lightseeker, your post sure made it look that way ?
f
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ertsky,
it seems pretty straight forward to me Lightseeker
That's the very point that I was making earlier. Things that the church taught seemed 'pretty straight foreward to me'...years ago...and now, I no longer believe them. Take the following verse which you quoted.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Because man capitalized the S I used to believe that The Holy Spirit dwelled within me too. Now I don't. I believe my spirit became holy upon the new birth. The only body that I see The Holy Spirit in, is the 'many membered' 'singular body' of Christ Rom 12:5, 1Cor 12:12, Eph 2:19-22, . But that should be another thread. :shock:
Lightseeker that sort of statement doesn't fit at all into my understanding of faithfulness to the doctrine of Christ
You should reread your 1John and Titus quotes in context. I think you'll find that fellowship isn't based upon your/my doctrinal talk...it's based upon our walk...in obedience to the commandments. That's in both of your quotes...start at verse 1 and read them again. You're making 'fellowship requirements' which are based upon agreement, which simply makes a 'dead letter' of the law of doctrine IMO. Personally, I'd rather talk it wrong and walk it right than talk it right and walk it wrong. On the day of judgment we'll all be judged for every deed ... not every doctrine.
TIT 3:10 A man that is an heretick/0141 after the first and second admonition reject;
0141 hairetikos: a schismatic
Know what a schismatic is f? According to scripture it isn't someone who believes in heresy...it's someone who divides the church over differences of opinion. One saying I'm of Paul, Appolos, Cephas.
1CO 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Approval from God doesn't come from 'talking' in oneness but 'walking' in oneness. All the above is just my opinion of course. :D
Sorry this was so long.
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ertsky,
it seems pretty straight forward to me Lightseeker
That's the very point that I was making earlier. Things that the church taught seemed 'pretty straight foreward to me'...years ago...and now, I no longer believe them. Take the following verse which you quoted.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Because man capitalized the S I used to believe that The Holy Spirit dwelled within me too. Now I don't. I believe my spirit became holy upon the new birth. The only body that I see The Holy Spirit in, is the 'many membered' 'singular body' of Christ Rom 12:5, 1Cor 12:12, Eph 2:19-22, . But that should be another thread. :shock:
Lightseeker that sort of statement doesn't fit at all into my understanding of faithfulness to the doctrine of Christ
You should reread your 1John and Titus quotes in context. I think you'll find that fellowship isn't based upon your/my doctrinal talk...it's based upon our walk...in obedience to the commandments. That's in both of your quotes...start at verse 1 and read them again. You're making 'fellowship requirements' which are based upon agreement, which simply makes a 'dead letter' of the law of doctrine IMO. Personally, I'd rather talk it wrong and walk it right than talk it right and walk it wrong. On the day of judgment we'll all be judged for every deed ... not every doctrine.
TIT 3:10 A man that is an heretick/0141 after the first and second admonition reject;
0141 hairetikos: a schismatic
Know what a schismatic is f? According to scripture it isn't someone who believes in heresy...it's someone who divides the church over differences of opinion. One saying I'm of Paul, Appolos, Cephas.
1CO 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Approval from God doesn't come from 'talking' in oneness but 'walking' in oneness. All the above is just my opinion of course. :D
As far as the 'doctrine of Christ' in your Titus verse...at least we're back to the topic of the thread and the fact that multiple baptisms are part of the two verses speaking of that doctrine.
HEB 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,
So what, in your opinion, are those multiple baptisms which don't fit Eph 4:5 :?:
Sorry this was so long.
We should start a separate thread to debate the subject.
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NS,
I edited out my comments at the end about baptism. I forgot which thread I was on. :?
If you're talking about my Sspirit comment, I having second thoughts. I don't want to be doing something against protocol. This site is supposed to be about stuff that's been taught here. So far I think I've tried not to argue against anything. I do feel like I've questioned things based on my own personal 'right or wrong' understanding of scripture though. I've enjoyed myself here and don't want a problem.
What do you think, you've been here longer than me. If you feel comfortable starting something I'll weigh in.
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NS,
I edited out my comments at the end about baptism. I forgot which thread I was on. :?
If you're talking about my Sspirit comment, I having second thoughts. I don't want to be doing something against protocol. This site is supposed to be about stuff that's been taught here. So far I think I've tried not to argue against anything. I do feel like I've questioned things based on my own personal 'right or wrong' understanding of scripture though. I've enjoyed myself here and don't want a problem.
What do you think, you've been here longer than me. If you feel comfortable starting something I'll weigh in.
I, myself, do not mind a debate. If it's okay with the other members, a debate would be great.
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Guys,
This is not a debate forum, questions yes, questions that may disagree, yes, as long as the questioner is trying to understand and learn, and you can agree to disagree.
Debates, NO. They usually only lead to strife and further disagreements, with no ones mind changed.
If you want to debate do it by PM.
Craig
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1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
if someone is a trinitarian, well they have my deepest sympathy, but i am not about to go back under a false doctrine that the Lord Himself has bought and brought me out of.
this is the bible-truths board not the let's all embrace the false doctrine of the trinity board, there are plenty of those out there already.
f
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Frank, I agree wholeheartedly, the Spirit of God who is our Teacher and our Advocate before the Father and is always interceding with Him on our behalf, that is none other than Jesus Christ;
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
I found it interesting and instructive that in the verses above we find the root word of creation and creature to be the same, does this help give another insight into the fact that we are "in process" and not "created" into a finished product as of yet?
creature2937
creation2937
G2937
κτίσις
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
formation
Function: noun
Pronunciation: fo r-'mA-sh&n
1 : an act of giving form or shape to something or of taking form : DEVELOPMENT
2 : something that is formed <new word formations>
3 : the manner in which a thing is formed : STRUCTURE <the peculiar formation of the heart>
4 : the largest unit in an ecological community comprising two or more associations and their precursors <grassland formation>
5 a : any igneous, sedimentary, or metamorphic rock represented as a unit b : any sedimentary bed or consecutive series of beds sufficiently homogeneous or distinctive to be a unit
6 : an arrangement of a body or group of persons or things in some prescribed manner or for a particular purpose
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i just wanted to say that in my zeal to be completely seperate from false doctrine it may appear as if i personally dislike Lightseeker.
this is definitely not the case
it is the false doctrine i hate not the person who holds it, i bear Lightseeker no personal ill will at all.
i hope all trinitarians come to be set free from all false doctrine, just as i have the same hope for myself in Christ.
that is
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
if anyone insists on a false doctrine being true, after two decent goes at discussing it, i would have to love that person by rejecting them till they repent.
especially if they reject the testimony of several trustworthy brothers on the matter
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
just trying to say it's not always pleasant, but we have a duty in Christ, to not allow false doctrine to pass unchallenged amongst ourselves.
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
to me if i am to be presented as a chaste virgin to Christ then keeping seperate from false doctrine is of vital importance.
satan cannot defeat Christ in us head on for,
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
but if he can get some false doctrine in amongst us he has really the chance to wreak havoc, we need to take heed to the doctrine, to the extent that we are faithful to His Word we are faithful to Him. to the extent we know His word we know Him.
f
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and also i felt this verse
1Th 5:21 Test all things, hold fast the good.
f
PS: WOW! great insight Joe
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Frank,
i just wanted to say that in my zeal to be completely seperate from false doctrine it may appear as if i personally dislike Lightseeker.
this is definitely not the case
it is the false doctrine i hate not the person who holds it, i bear Lightseeker no personal ill will at all.
Thanks for your clarification Frank. It's comforting to know that all the teeth marks were really just love bites. :wink:
JOH 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
JOB 11:4 For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes. 5 But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee; 6 And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is!
There are many levels in God and it is wise to never put a roof on the level you're at.
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Lightseeker are you a trinitarian or not?
your post certainly indicated you are
if you are, you are in error and need to repent of that false doctrine
thats my love there Lightseeker
trying to warn you and others that the trinity doctrine is false
Rev 3:19 I, as many "as I love, I rebuke and I chasten." Be zealous, then, and repent. Prov. 3:12
f
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Frank,
Lightseeker are you a trinitarian or not?
your post certainly indicated you are
if you are, you are in error and need to repent of that false doctrine
thats my love there Lightseeker
trying to warn you and others that the trinity doctrine is false
I believe the Rev. quote is spoken from my Lord and savior. And if He was rebuking/chastening me....I would repent. But since it's you who as much as called me a 'false prophet' in a previous post. I think I wait for someone with a better 'discerning of spirits', if that's OK with you brother. I think you're one even if you don't think I am. 8)
Rev 3:19 I, as many "as I love, I rebuke and I chasten." Be zealous, then, and repent.
Your second verse confirms the same authority source. That isn't why you only gave an address is it? Please let me do it for you.
PRO 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
To answer your question as best I can: All I know for sure is that 'great is the mystery of god'. I also know that I am a spirit, soul, and body (1Thes 5:23). Or as I prefer to say, I am a spirit I have a soul and I live in a body. Are you? If so, then are you a trinity? I guess I wouldn't consider myself one by any of the definitions of the nomial church. Hope that helps.
Well I'm off to homegroup seeya lovya bye.
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Frank,
Lightseeker are you a trinitarian or not?
your post certainly indicated you are
if you are, you are in error and need to repent of that false doctrine
thats my love there Lightseeker
trying to warn you and others that the trinity doctrine is false
I believe the Rev. quote is spoken from my Lord and savior. And if He was rebuking/chastening me....I would repent. But since it's you who as much as called me a 'false prophet' in a previous post. I think I wait for someone with a better 'discerning of spirits', if that's OK with you brother. I think you're one even if you don't think I am. 8)
Rev 3:19 I, as many "as I love, I rebuke and I chasten." Be zealous, then, and repent.
Your second verse confirms the same authority source. That isn't why you only gave an address is it? Please let me do it for you.
PRO 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
To answer your question as best I can: All I know for sure is that 'great is the mystery of god'. I also know that I am a spirit, soul, and body (1Thes 5:23). Or as I prefer to say, I am a spirit I have a soul and I live in a body. Are you? If so, then are you a trinity? I guess I wouldn't consider myself one by any of the definitions of the nomial church. Hope that helps.
Well I'm off to homegroup seeya lovya bye.
Lightseeker, I think your hugest error leading to your belief in the Trinity is your misunderstanding of the composition of a human being. You believe a human is made up of three parts, i.e. body, spirit, soul. This doctrine, however, has influences from pagan philosophy, such as Plato, who taught dualism of body and soul and the immortality of the soul—all of which are anti-Scriptural.
For example, God created man in two stages, resulting in man's living form.
[1] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
[2] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
[3] and man became a living soul (Gen 2:7, KJV).
Man become a "living soul" after God formed him from the dust and breathed into him life. The soul is not a separate component of a human but is indeed the human him or herself.
I am a soul, you are a soul, however, I do not have a soul, considering I AM the soul. When I die, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecc 12:7, KJV). There is, however, no third part. I have a body with a spark in it that animates it. I am the soul. Take away my spirit, and I am no longer a soul.
If you think about it, the creation of man supports a unity, and not a Trinity. Jesus and God are two beings that make up one flesh or Elohim, just like a Spirit and body are two separate components that make up a living soul; just like a man and woman are two genders that become one through the flesh—which was all created thus and written for our “admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come� (1Co 10:11, KJV).
I'd be glad to debate with you via AIM, MSN, or PM.
PS. Keep studying. Discovering who and what Christ is and who and what the Father is and their relationship is the most difficult of the searches the elect engage in. I, myself, have been struggling with whether or not Jesus is Yahweh. However, I stand strong to the fact that "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1Co 8:6, KJV).
Keep seeking the light, but listen to the nightmare! Har har har.
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i think lightseeker's posts are deceptive
There is a cry from the seed/spirit that is in every man. And the spirit/seed that's in every man, came from "the Father of spirits" and "God of the spirits of all flesh". Every human is born with an inherent desire to manifest the likeness of Him.
WHAT!
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
Unfortunately the unsaved world is still seeking via the tree of knowledge,
no it's the called (babylon) who don't know the hidden wisdom, because it's hidden in Him and they won't go to Him that they might have life.
Adam and Eve's 'soulish deception' is what sentenced them to being dying souls instead of the 'living souls' they were, when they walked in obedience.
God knew they would sin He made them that way (hearts desperately weak) , it is Plan A.
before eve sinned by taking and eating the forbidden fruit she had already shown lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life.
It appears that man was/is created and formed in the "image of God"
WRONG!
it's a process we are being formed
we like our Master are learning obedience through the things we suffer
we are learning to choose the good and refuse the bad, Christ is being formed within us
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
He is a triune being of Father, Son, Spirit.
false doctrine
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
all of this from one post by lightseeker
post full of error, deceptive misleading error
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
f
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Nightmare S, You really are going to have to explain your username for the newguy. :?
This doctrine, however, has influences from pagan philosophy, such as Plato, who taught dualism of body and soul and the immortality of the soul—all of which are anti-Scriptural.
Don't know what to tell you except I've never read Plato, but base my understanding on scripture which says YOUR whole spirit, soul, body.
For example, God created man in two stages, resulting in man's living form.
[1] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
[2] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
[3] and man became a living soul (Gen 2:7, KJV).
Reason with me for a moment. In step 1 is formed past tense? So when God formed the dust what was laying there devoid of breath? According to scripture/[1] it was man as a body. When God breathed (present tense) into that man of dust the breath/spirit of life...he/man now was a body and spirit. Ever hear of a human vegetable...it's someone who is alive spirit/body but their soul (mind will intellect) is checked out. Not their brain, but their soul (let the reader understand). What happened next after step 1,2? Man became (future tense) a 'living soul' versus a 'dying soul' IMO.
A living soul is someone who is being led of the Sspirit of life and not led by the 'lust of their flesh' (body) or the 'lust of the eyes' (soul) or by the 'pride of life' (spirit) (false spirit of pride). All those sources lead to being a dying soul.
When we're not led, of His/our Sspirit of life, but a false spirit we have entered into the sentence of death (in the day [not a 24 hr period in that scripture] that thou eatest thou shalt surely die). That's what happened to Adam and Eve when they followed after all that is in the world: the lust of their flesh body ("woman saw that the tree was good for food') and the lust of their eyes/soul ("it was pleasant to the eyes") and false spirit of life ("a tree to be desired to make one wise").
Man become a "living soul" after God formed him from the dust and breathed into him life. The soul is not a separate component of a human but is indeed the human him or herself.
Please explain 1Thes 5:23 from your position.
I am a soul, you are a soul, however, I do not have a soul, considering I AM the soul. When I die, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecc 12:7, KJV). There is, however, no third part. I have a body with a spark in it that
MAT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. What's missing in this verse? The spirit which returned to God as you correctly understand/quoted from Ecc 12:7.
Take away my spirit, and I am no longer a soul.
Correct...you're a dead man body/soul because your spirit man departed just like: LUK 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway:
I'd be glad to debate with you via AIM, MSN, or PM.
Know what :?: I'm not young enough or computer literate enough to even know what those things are. Actually I've got my hands full here right now. I do have to work for a living also. The length of this post was again time consuming but I am happy still dialogue with you on this thread/subject Niteguy :wink:
Frank: What can I say except I'm too busy to respond to one who already 'knows it all'. Having spent 2 years working on the kill floor of a packing plant I know that iron only sharpens iron if someone knows how to use ‘the steel’. Keep defending 'your' faith. God bless.
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Having spent 2 years working on the kill floor of a packing plant I know that iron only sharpens iron if someone knows how to use ‘the steel’.
well i'm a musician, and having spent coming up on 30 years playing, i can tell you it's a problem if you aren't in tune. LOL!
all members of the band must tune to the same reference pitch
if you are not all in tune to the same reference pitch the result is cacophany!
the bible is our reference pitch, Christ is our measuring reference pitch.
the spirit leads us into all truth, the spirit behind the letter
so we can tune to Christ
we don't say Lord You tune to me ! :shock:
we say Lord please give us A=440Hz in the spirit so we can be in tune with You, otherwise we might get suspended from band duty for being out of tune.
lightseeker please check your tuning, that trinity doctrine is clashing with the main theme.
f
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f,
I had a equally witty comeback for your last post. I delayed lunch to write it. As I was about to post it, the Spirit said don't...go to lunch. So I did. It was there that I was convicted as to my attitude and last comment.
Frank: What can I say except I'm too busy to respond to one who already 'knows it all'. Having spent 2 years working on the kill floor of a packing plant I know that iron only sharpens iron if someone knows how to use ‘the steel’. Keep defending 'your' faith. God bless.
The conviciton I felt, was the Father saying, "I love to see my children play...I take no pleasure in their fighting." I next had a vision of 'the steel and the knife', in His hands. These words followed, "Except the steel and the knife are both yielded to My hand nothing is accomplished."
You can take the above for what it's worth to you, but with it I offer my sincere apology for the above quoted comments, as well as the one I didn't post. I also feel compelled to cease dialogue with you until free to do so. I hope you understand.
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You can take the above for what it's worth to you, but with it I offer my sincere apology for the above quoted comments, as well as the one I didn't post. I also feel compelled to cease dialogue with you until free to do so. I hope you understand.
I appreciate the humility and honesty of this poster.
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but what about the doctrine!
this is a message board, the bible truths message board !
we can post all we like, go too far, not go far enough
but what about the doctrine?.
howabout yes i am a trinitarian?
or no i am not a trinitarian?
sometimes i get a bit frustrated that some do not seem to want to get the doctrine right.
to directly address the one thing we can easily address
THE DOCTRINE. not the style of manner, the niceties or lack thereof.
a straight answer to a straight question
coming to the bt boards and saying god is a triune being is WHAT!
quite alright ! should go unchallenged ?
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
test the teaching, test the doctrine
f
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let's get this straight
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Balaam taught Balac that if he could just get God's people to allow a few false doctrines in then they would be easy pickings !
commit fornication = allow false doctrines in unchecked and unchallenged amongst the people
this is important
even more important than many want to know, the verse starts
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee
OH WE LOVE YOU LORD, WE LOVE EVERYONE,LOVE LOVE LOVE
oh really, then why don't you defend yourselves and your brothers against false doctrine.
WHY AREN'T YOU FAITHFUL TO MY WORD ?
in Love
f
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
defending the doctrine is a very important attribute of Love
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
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I am certainly not a trinitarian but I still don't have a complete understanding of the God/Christ relationship. So I won't condemn another who doesn't. Obviously if someone came out and said they believed in the trinity, I'd have to tell them that it's an unscriptural teaching of pagan origins. And if they continued to defend the trinity concept, I would consider it an idol.
But I created a separate thread on Christ's deity/origin and I see that no one here seems to have a full grasp of it. In fact, if you see my last post in the "Was Christ Created" thread, I'm not sure that Mike has the correct doctrine on this issue either.
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Im a baby in all this, but i can certainly see the errors in Lightseekers post. Not blaming Him for them, but someone needs to Show Him where there is an error.
JOB 14:10 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their SLEEP. 13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. (NKJV)
ECCLESIASTES 9:2 All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. 3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. (NIV)
PSALM 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence; (NASB)
When a MAN DIES, HIS SPIRIT DEPARTS. His thoughts THEY PERISH. Why do they perish? Because man is a LIVING SOUL. When man dies, HE IS A DEAD SOUL. That breath of life given to Him is GONE. His SPIRIT DEPARTS. IF you want to look at the Breath of life as the SPIRIT giving part then think of DEATH as the TAKING AWAY PART of it.
PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (NASB)
When you die, you do not Descend into heaven, or hell, yada yada yada, you SLEEP.
ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)
About the Trinity thing, its completely false.
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Where or how did Jesus come about into existence?
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
Jesus plainly tells:
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
So who exactly is Jesus in relationship to God?
Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, FIRSTBORN of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).
"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).
Jesus One day will subject HIMSELF to GOD THE FATHER.
"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all"
So as you can see, Jesus is Clearly of God, but the best way to Explain Jesus is with these Scriptures, and i always looked at Him as the way Ray put it.
Man and Women cleave to eachother and become ONE FLESH. So is God the Father and Jesus ONE in this same thought. To expound on this, i believe Ray says that Jesus has a GOD, but GOD THE FATHER DOES NOT. Still with all thsi there is no THIRD BEING to God the Father. There is only CHRIST JESUS. Who is the "IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD."
I did my best with what little Knoweldge God has bestowed me with, I hope it helps however small that help might be.
God bless :)
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lilitalienboi16
Let me preface this by saying what I think a man is:
spirit: (masculine in gender) the animating life force of a man.
soul: (feminine in gender), the motivating life force of a man (mind, will, emotions).
body: male or female, the mobile home that spirit, soul indwell.
Man is three and salvation is three. A spirit must be justified a soul must be sanctified and a body must be glorified. The spirit is saved by His death on the cross. The soul is saved (worked out) by dying to self (our mind, will, emotion) putting on His mind/soul eg. the mind of Christ, with resurrection life. In doing so we once again become a living soul in that yielded area of our life. And the body will receive glory based upon how much of the soul was renewed. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
JOB 14:10 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their SLEEP. 13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. (NKJV)
Read your Job quote carefully. What is laid in the grave? A man (singular, not mankind). So does that mean a man isn't also a spirit? Does not the man of dust return to dust, and does not the spirit of man return to God?
So what sleeps in Sheol/Hades/grave until the day of judgment, is it the soul? Seventh Day Adventists teach something about soul sleep. I honestly don't know for sure.
PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he (the dust) returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts (soul) perish. (NASB) [/color]
His spirit departs....where to...the Father from whence it came. He returns to the earth...He who?...the body. His thoughts (soul mind will emotions) perish...His thoughts...but what about those thoughts that are of God. Thoughts which will remain for the day of rewards where our reward is based upon conforming our mind to His mind. I believe soul sleep may have some merit. But as I said earlier I'm not sure. The fact that the soul that sins it shall die is scriptural. Wonder why it didn't say he will die? The grave is a judgment of God for both the 'bodyof sin' and the still 'rebellious soul' (those parts not yet yielded in this life).
ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)
About the Trinity thing, its completely false.
I'm not as sure as you are. That's why I keep asking the questions I do. And awaiting answers I never get.
Is a man...a spirit, soul and body like 1Thes 5:23 says or not? Is that not sort of a triune being? If not, please explain.
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Is a man...a spirit, soul and body like 1Thes 5:23 says or not? Is that not sort of a triune being? If not, please explain.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hello Lightseeker,
I am getting into this conversation late. Hope I am not intruding.This is how I see what you asked about.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Without the breath of life the soul cannot live. I believe the combination of body and God's Spirit is what combines to make a living soul.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ecc 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
(1 Corinthians 6:17) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
(1 Corinthians 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(Ephesians 4:4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(Philippians 1:27) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Christ is the man and the Spirit that is one. Only through Christ do we attain life. He is our Creator only he can give us the Spirit that is needed for life. There is only ONE life not three.
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lilitalienboi16
Let me preface this by saying what I think a man is:
spirit: (masculine in gender) the animating life force of a man.
soul: (feminine in gender), the motivating life force of a man (mind, will, emotions).
body: male or female, the mobile home that spirit, soul indwell.
Man is three and salvation is three. A spirit must be justified a soul must be sanctified and a body must be glorified. The spirit is saved by His death on the cross. The soul is saved (worked out) by dying to self (our mind, will, emotion) putting on His mind/soul eg. the mind of Christ, with resurrection life. In doing so we once again become a living soul in that yielded area of our life. And the body will receive glory based upon how much of the soul was renewed. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
JOB 14:10 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their SLEEP. 13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. (NKJV)
Read your Job quote carefully. What is laid in the grave? A man (singular, not mankind). So does that mean a man isn't also a spirit? Does not the man of dust return to dust, and does not the spirit of man return to God?
So what sleeps in Sheol/Hades/grave until the day of judgment, is it the soul? Seventh Day Adventists teach something about soul sleep. I honestly don't know for sure.
PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he (the dust) returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts (soul) perish. (NASB) [/color]
His spirit departs....where to...the Father from whence it came. He returns to the earth...He who?...the body. His thoughts (soul mind will emotions) perish...His thoughts...but what about those thoughts that are of God. Thoughts which will remain for the day of rewards where our reward is based upon conforming our mind to His mind. I believe soul sleep may have some merit. But as I said earlier I'm not sure. The fact that the soul that sins it shall die is scriptural. Wonder why it didn't say he will die? The grave is a judgment of God for both the 'bodyof sin' and the still 'rebellious soul' (those parts not yet yielded in this life).
ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)
About the Trinity thing, its completely false.
I'm not as sure as you are. That's why I keep asking the questions I do. And awaiting answers I never get.
Is a man...a spirit, soul and body like 1Thes 5:23 says or not? Is that not sort of a triune being? If not, please explain.
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Ecc 9:10, KJV).
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sparkyman481
Hello Lightseeker,
I am getting into this conversation late. Hope I am not intruding.This is how I see what you asked about.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Without the breath of life the soul cannot live. I believe the combination of body and God's Spirit is what combines to make a living soul.
Not intruding at all on my part. I have a question for you based on the above. We've, in part, been discussing man being made in the image of God and the trinity doctrine. Based upon your above post you seem to be saying that man isn't triparte but biparte (combination of spirit and body). So if that's the case are you saying God and man isn't a trinity but a duality.
Christ is the man and the Spirit that is one. Only through Christ do we attain life. He is our Creator only he can give us the Spirit that is needed for life. There is only ONE life not three.
But in the above quote you now say ONE life. I agree there is only one life, but is a person, and Christ, just a spirit? How do the following verses fit your position?
LUK 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
HEB 2:17 Wherefore in all things/Pas it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren
3956 pas: all, any, every, the whole
Nightmare
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Ecc 9:10, KJV).
I feel like Joshua when he didn't know whose side the angel of the Lord was on. The angel just said nay. I could take your posted verse as another one supporting my position...but I don't know if that's what you intended. :?
I was really hoping for more from you concerning some of my questions earlier. I don't mean that as a cut. I know the posts are too long and other interests compete here for your imput. Thanks anyway.
Maybe this thread is reaching a frazzle and coming to an end. 8)
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So let me get this straight, You believe man is not the LIVING SOUL, but rather man is seperate from the living soul?
Also, you believe that simply because there is a BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT that God MUST BE 3 Parts also?
From what im reading from you, it seems to contradict completely the word of God.
That God breathed Life into man and HE BECAME A LIVING SOUL. The proces of breathing LIFE into Him MAKES HIM THAT SOUL, you believe He is not? There is no 3 step process to Creation. Read your scripture and pray that the Lord upon up your eyes. It's right there friend :)
So you think that WHen it says MAN is laid into the grave, you believe that HIs soul doesn't also lay there? You believe his soul is somewhere else? In heaven?
The spirit departs, but the SPirit is that BREATH OF LIFE, its not something that when it Goes to God the father you are somehow im heaven with Him. OUR THOUGHTS PERISH TILL THE DAY OF THE RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. If we went to heaven because Our spirits return to God, then there would be no point in resurrecting us because we would already be with the Father in Heaven with our spirits. However that is not the case.
Read your Job quote carefully. What is laid in the grave? A man (singular, not mankind). So does that mean a man isn't also a spirit? Does not the man of dust return to dust, and does not the spirit of man return to God?
So what sleeps in Sheol/Hades/grave until the day of judgment, is it the soul? Seventh Day Adventists teach something about soul sleep. I honestly don't know for sure.
Man is three parts, yes that is true. Soul, spirit and Body.
However when a man is laid into his grave, His THOUGHTS PERISH. His LIVING SOUL = MAN IS DEAD. His soul is dead! It is asleep as the bible refers death too. The spirit (Breath of life) Is gone back toward the Father whence it came.
You quoted something interesting.
"The SOUL that sins IT SHALL DIE." Do you not see how this relates to MAN BEING A LIVING SOUL? MAN SINS, MAN DIES. SOUL AND MAN ARE INTERTWINED. MAN IS THE LIVING SOUL. This only further proves that the SOUL is NOT IMMORTAL, but rather the very part of MAN. THE LIVING SOUL WAS ADAM. ADAM IS THE LIVING SOUL. ADAM IS MAN= LIVING SOUL.
Soul is alseep in the grave, spirit (Breath of life) returns to God. You die, you loose the breath of life, thats obviouse. So your SPIRIT returns TO GOD WHENCE IT CAME.
How is this not simple for you to grasp? If you believe otherwise then argue with Gods word.
If im wrong in what i believe you are trying to say i apoligize im trying to figure out where we disagree and i don't know what it is.
P.S. The trinity is a completely false doctrine, you need to xplain why you find it in anyway valid what so ever. I don't think ive seen you make a valid case/show/explain why you believe the Trinity to have any truth whatsoever. Its contrary to the Word of God.
P.P.S. Lightseeker, from reading your responce to Nightmares quote i think you are perhaps being... hm... not to be mean or anything but it seems to me that you just want to be right really bad you are ignoring the scripture.
Nitemare quoted a perfect scripture that shows at DEATH, There is NOTHING. We SLEEP like the bible calls it. Man is the LIVING SOUL because of GODS SPIRIT. THE BREATH OF LIFE. The soul(man=LIVING SOUL) that SINS DIES. I am unable to see where your confusion lies. Please rephrase what you are having trouble understanding so that i can UNDERSTAND.
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sparkyman481 Hello Lightseeker,
I am getting into this conversation late. Hope I am not intruding.This is how I see what you asked about.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Without the breath of life the soul cannot live. I believe the combination of body and God's Spirit is what combines to make a living soul.
Not intruding at all on my part. I have a question for you based on the above. We've, in part, been discussing man being made in the image of God and the trinity doctrine. Based upon your above post you seem to be saying that man isn't triparte but biparte (combination of spirit and body). So if that's the case are you saying God and man isn't a trinity but a duality.
Christ is the man and the Spirit that is one. Only through Christ do we attain life. He is our Creator only he can give us the Spirit that is needed for life. There is only ONE life not three.
But in the above quote you now say ONE life. I agree there is only one life, but is a person, and Christ, just a spirit? How do the following verses fit your position?
LUK 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
HEB 2:17 Wherefore in all things/Pas it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren
3956 pas: all, any, every, the whole
Nightmare
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Ecc 9:10, KJV).
I feel like Joshua when he didn't know whose side the angel of the Lord was on. The angel just said nay. I could take your posted verse as another one supporting my position...but I don't know if that's what you intended. :?
I was really hoping for more from you concerning some of my questions earlier. I don't mean that as a cut. I know the posts are too long and other interests compete here for your imput. Thanks anyway.
Maybe this thread is reaching a frazzle and coming to an end. 8)
I've been very busy with homework this week. I have not had time to make a full response to your posts. Please excuse me.
Hopefully... hopefully... I will be able to present a fuller analysis of your posts this weekend if I find time. If not, then definitely in 30 days ;D
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I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time. But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.
If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
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Laren
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.
what we have now is the earnest of the spirit
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
until the redemption of the purchased posession
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
you quote
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
but that is a terrible translation
have a look at the same verse in Youngs
Joh 11:26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age;
Ray wrote some great stuff on this verse, heres an exerpt
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
read it all in
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
f
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Laren
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.
what we have now is the earnest of the spirit
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
until the redemption of the purchased posession
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
you quote
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
but that is a terrible translation
have a look at the same verse in Youngs
Joh 11:26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age;
Ray wrote some great stuff on this verse, heres an exerpt
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
read it all in
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
f
We can talk more by PM if u want, as I know this belief is not of Ray's. I just thank God I know him now, and can know him more and more.
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
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Man this is getting Odd, im having a hard time following.
What are we debating here?
Lightseeker? Please clarify.
Laren, please explain what your post was about, do you not believe that when we die we sleep till the day of ressuretion of the dead? Do you believe we automaticaly go to heaven? If so you are in complete contrary to hundreds of scripture both old and new. God does not change.
Again sorry if i have misunderstood any of you.
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lilitalienboi16
Man this is getting Odd, im having a hard time following.
I agree. I know my posts have been way too long and time consuming for me to even write. I was ready to let this go last night and now today there's just too much on the plate. Some of it is covered ground. I have enjoyed the discussion overall and am thankful for the time.
I believe some of your questions from the 12:37 am post were answered on my May 1, 11:20.
Laren
I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time.
I too, am concerned about getting 'bumped'. I don't know if I'm crossing the line and don't want to find out. Are there warnings from the moderators before such discipline?
Nightmare
Study hard and don't worry about this. I'm going to a conference this weekend and leave tomorrow at noon. We'll hopefully Ebate some other topics in search for the truth. :wink:
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I'd like a more detailed answer to that Thessalonians verse...
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I have read through the thread and did not see this verse quoted, maybe I missed it, if I did please forgive me.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath5397 of life; and man became a living soul.
H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
Body + breath of life (spirit) = soul
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit7307 shall return unto God who gave it.
H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
Once the spirit (breath of life) is gone from the body it ceases to be a soul.
Flour + water = dough
The 2 componants make one product, take either of the former away and you cannot have the latter.
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1Thes 5:23
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Looks like a bad translation, I think Ray addresses this verse in one of the papers, I will check. In the mean time let's break it down a bit into the original Greek.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit4151 and soul5590 and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
It would appear that the prejudice of the translaters (English) may be filtered in.
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I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense). This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.
However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action. Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer? Thanks.
Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.
There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.
I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.
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I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time. But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.
If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.
The followers of Christ, indeed, will receive eonian life (the 1000 year reign) but not until AFTER the resurrection. I will show you.
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).
Did you read the first sentence? Good. So lets understand something... this happens when the Son of man comes in his glory with the holy angels, which we all know is future. I'm sure you'll agree with me there, correct? Read on...
"...[yada yada yada] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you [the sinners and unbelievers], Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios]" (Mat 25:45, KJV).
Okay. Do we have this established, now? The sinners and unbelievers "go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" when "When [and only when] the Son of man shall come in his glory..." Understand?
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5, KJV).
Resurrection – “the state of one risen from the dead� (Merriam-Webster).
The resurrection will give life to the dead, not to those that are hopping around in heaven alive. Resurrection=give life to the dead. Resurrection does not=give life to the living.
You quoted Joh 11:26. I’m honestly surprised you haven’t discovered what this verse really means, yet.
“καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;â€? (Joh 11:26, KJV).
Can you read that whole verse? No? Good… you’re not better than me. We’re off to a good start. However, I do know eis ton aiona means into the duration/age/eon.
Lets look at the Strong’s definations.
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.
G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age…
So… “to or into [G1519] … the [G3588] … age [G165]�
Rotherham translates it thus, “And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
The CLV translates it, “And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
If you want, download an interlinear (perhaps, scripture4all—run a google search to find it) and check for yourself.
Hope I helped clear that misunderstanding up.
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Great post nitemare.
There should be no doubt in anyones mind here the state of the dead, and when they are given life again. Plenty of scripture to prove the Ressurection of the DEAD has a purpose. (We are not flooting around in heaven in eternal bliss before then.)
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I believe one of the greatest aspects of our belief is in the resurrection. The fact that Jesus died and rose the third day is the most spectacular event that has ever occured in the history of all history. If we were to die and then either go to heaven or hell, what would be the purpose of the resurrection? What would be the reason for our faith?
God has said, the wages of sin is death and the day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall surely die. This is why Jesus came to save us from death eternal to give us life, even though we must still die, it no longer is a death forever. The resurrection of Jesus is what proves that death is conquered and the faith in this is paramount to ones belief. Jesus came to save us from the wages we earned, which is death, to give us life, life more abundant. Death and life is happening around us everyday of our lives, in the physical and the spiritual. The day will come when there will no longer be death, but only life, when God will be all in all. This is pure love, in which there is no fear.
The goal in all our lives is to fight the good fight, love God with all our hearts, love our neighbors as ourselves, and to forgive our enemies. This is easier said than done, but we must follow Him. There is no other way. We all die daily, warring against the flesh and the day will come we all will go the way of the earth, but this is not the end. This is where true faith comes, in believing things that cant be seen.
It is like, when we were young and tried to do something new, we have never done before. We were scared and asked our parents for guidance, and just when they said it will be okay, albeit still apprehensive, we did it. Then, we look around and see that it was nothing at all to be afraid of. God is not in the business of creating robots. That would not build true character, faith and love. It takes trust and obedience.
God bless,
Gary
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[
Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).
Actually,I believe the seperating the sheep from the goats is going on right now, in my opinion. That's why judgment begins at the house of God.
Here is something Mike V wrote to me once:
I don't mean to over simplify this subject, but when you get a handle on the Is, Was And Will Be, character of the Word Of God, which is Christ, you will realize that the separation of the sheep from the goats has actually been going on in type since Cain and Able, and the separating of the sheep and the goats has been going on in spiritual reality since Christ and the separating of the elect from the called generation by generation. The "separating of the sheep and the goats," is a statement about the "day of judgment," which is now on the house of God:
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that [the day of] judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us [the sheep], what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [the goats]
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous [sheep] scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner [goats] appear?
The day of judgment "first begins at us." The "end of those who obey not the gospel of God," is a reference to the lake of fire reserved for the "goats."
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [the goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The 'goats,' are the angels (the messengers-ministers) of Satan the Devil.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
There will be vast multitudes of goats on God's left hand and a very small flock of sheep on God's right hand. But what is not realized by the "historical orthodox Christian church," which will comprise that vast multitude of goats, is that since the Word of God Is, Was And Will Be, True. They cannot conceive of "that day," being "judgment must begin at the house of God," right now.
It is being judged now, while yet in this flesh, that qualifies one to be in the first resurrection as an "overcomer." It is only the "overcomers," who are given positions of ruler ship over "cities," in the kingdom of God. It is only the "overcomers" who will "judge angels."
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
....
Mike
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I have read through the thread and did not see this verse quoted, maybe I missed it, if I did please forgive me.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath5397 of life; and man became a living soul.
Actually it was mentioned by Nightmare and I responded on pg 3 May 1 11:20am
1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Looks like a bad translation,It would appear that the prejudice of the translaters (English) may be filtered in.
[/color]
The problem with Strongs in trying to figure out some of these terms (spirit, soul) is that they gave definitions based upon their understanding which weren't the best IMO.
The word spirit is pneuma in the greek. We derive words like pneumonia, pneumatic and other words dealing with air from it.
But the word soul is psuche in the Greek. From that word we derive words like psychotic, psychology, phychiatric and words dealing with the mind from it.
Strongs says pneuma can be defined 'the rational soul', 'mind', mental disposition'.
Strong's then says that psuche is the 'immortal rational soul', 'breath'.
This poor separation of definitons is very confusing when one reads their bible IMO. There is a world of difference between a 'mind, will, intellect' type of word when compared to a literal 'spirit' which gives life type of word. That's why I look at these definitions and say the:
The spirit is the animating life force. The life principle that comes from God which causes this flesh bucket to work.
The soul is the motivating life force or the part of us which thinks.
The unrenewed soul is always in tension between our spirit from God and the lusts of the flesh. Which ever one our soul lines up with determines our action. If our soul lines up with the spirit we lead our bodies about as a slave. But if our soul lines up with our flesh, we quench our spirit and commit sin.
GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
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I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time. But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.
If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.
The followers of Christ, indeed, will receive eonian life (the 1000 year reign) but not until AFTER the resurrection. I will show you.
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).
Did you read the first sentence? Good. So lets understand something... this happens when the Son of man comes in his glory with the holy angels, which we all know is future. I'm sure you'll agree with me there, correct? Read on...
"...[yada yada yada] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you [the sinners and unbelievers], Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios]" (Mat 25:45, KJV).
Okay. Do we have this established, now? The sinners and unbelievers "go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" when "When [and only when] the Son of man shall come in his glory..." Understand?
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5, KJV).
Resurrection – “the state of one risen from the dead� (Merriam-Webster).
The resurrection will give life to the dead, not to those that are hopping around in heaven alive. Resurrection=give life to the dead. Resurrection does not=give life to the living.
You quoted Joh 11:26. I’m honestly surprised you haven’t discovered what this verse really means, yet.
“καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;â€? (Joh 11:26, KJV).
Can you read that whole verse? No? Good… you’re not better than me. We’re off to a good start. However, I do know eis ton aiona means into the duration/age/eon.
Lets look at the Strong’s definations.
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.
G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age…
So… “to or into [G1519] … the [G3588] … age [G165]�
Rotherham translates it thus, “And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
The CLV translates it, “And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
If you want, download an interlinear (perhaps, scripture4all—run a google search to find it) and check for yourself.
Hope I helped clear that misunderstanding up.
Also Nightmare, will u comment please on this verse. Is this still off in the future yet too???
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
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I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense). This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.
However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action. Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer? Thanks.
Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.
There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.
I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.
I would love to be able to ask L. Ray and Mike questions via e-mail, with the hopes of having them answered. However, I have emailed Ray once and Mike twice with various inquiries and have never received a response from either man. So, because I really want to know the answers to these things, I have no other choice but to post topics on this board in the hopes that some one here may know. I realize this thread got derailed into a trinity debate, but that was not by my doing. How was I to know that there would be "many different views that will conflict with each other?"
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The unrenewed soul is always in tension between our spirit from God and the lusts of the flesh. Which ever one our soul lines up with determines our action. If our soul lines up with the spirit we lead our bodies about as a slave. But if our soul lines up with our flesh, we quench our spirit and commit sin.
GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Sorry Dee I can't see your quote from Galations backing your supposition, it is clear that the breath of life from God and the body formed by God is what constitutes our "living soul." There is no doubt or argument that the desires of the flesh and the Spirit of God are not compatible. Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul5315.
The original Hebrew shows the word "nephesh" to be a breathing creature.
H5315
#1504;פשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
I do not see the "soul" (your definition) lining up behind the flesh or the Spirit here either;
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
I have seen scripture use heart & mind as synonyms for our thought/thinking process, but not soul, soul is body + breath of life.
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This can be a very deep subject, of which there are many different opinions. But, I think it comes down to when Jesus died. Did He actually die or not? This is the question that will settle the debate. And if Jesus did not actually die, how could His life pay for our sins. For the wages of sin is death. But, He took our place, instead of, bore the sins of all, and the penalty was paid in full by Him.
But, if He did not die, and went somewhere for three days, how could He be resurrected, when He never died? And if He never died, then our sins are still accountable to us. So, even Jesus died, so shall we, but He has paid the penalty for our sins. We shall not die forever, but live. We must remember, that all of humanity has not risen, only one, our Lord and now He is our mediator.
We shall still die, but not forever, this is life age during. This is something that most of christianity can never understand. The penalty of sin is death. Jesus paid that penalty for us, we shall still die, but the hope of our belief is in the resurrection. Without it our hope would be in vain.
This whole life we have is like a seed. A seed must be dead, before you plant it to grow fruit. Death is a vital part of life, take death out of the equation, then where is life?
John 17, the whole chapter, must be read in its entirety. These are some of the most beautiful words our Lord ever spoke.
God bless,
Gary
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I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense). This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.
However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action. Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer? Thanks.
Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.
There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.
I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.
I would love to be able to ask L. Ray and Mike questions via e-mail, with the hopes of having them answered. However, I have emailed Ray once and Mike twice with various inquiries and have never received a response from either man. So, because I really want to know the answers to these things, I have no other choice but to post topics on this board in the hopes that some one here may know. I realize this thread got derailed into a trinity debate, but that was not by my doing. How was I to know that there would be "many different views that will conflict with each other?"
Joey, I posted this way earlier in this thread but there was no comment from anyone on the root of the words creation/creature, (there was a livelier debate taking place at the time). This root does not denote a finished product. Look it up.
creature2937
creation2937
G2937
κτίσις
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
formation
Function: noun
Pronunciation: fo r-'mA-sh&n
1 : an act of giving form or shape to something or of taking form : DEVELOPMENT
2 : something that is formed <new word formations>
3 : the manner in which a thing is formed : STRUCTURE <the peculiar formation of the heart>
4 : the largest unit in an ecological community comprising two or more associations and their precursors <grassland formation>
5 a : any igneous, sedimentary, or metamorphic rock represented as a unit b : any sedimentary bed or consecutive series of beds sufficiently homogeneous or distinctive to be a unit
6 : an arrangement of a body or group of persons or things in some prescribed manner or for a particular purpose
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I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense). This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.
However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action. Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer? Thanks.
Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.
There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.
I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.
I would love to be able to ask L. Ray and Mike questions via e-mail, with the hopes of having them answered. However, I have emailed Ray once and Mike twice with various inquiries and have never received a response from either man. So, because I really want to know the answers to these things, I have no other choice but to post topics on this board in the hopes that some one here may know. I realize this thread got derailed into a trinity debate, but that was not by my doing. How was I to know that there would be "many different views that will conflict with each other?"
Joey, I posted this way earlier in this thread but there was no comment from anyone on the root of the words creation/creature, (there was a livelier debate taking place at the time). This root does not denote a finished product. Look it up.
creature2937
creation2937
G2937
κτίσις
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
formation
Function: noun
Pronunciation: fo r-'mA-sh&n
1 : an act of giving form or shape to something or of taking form : DEVELOPMENT
2 : something that is formed <new word formations>
3 : the manner in which a thing is formed : STRUCTURE <the peculiar formation of the heart>
4 : the largest unit in an ecological community comprising two or more associations and their precursors <grassland formation>
5 a : any igneous, sedimentary, or metamorphic rock represented as a unit b : any sedimentary bed or consecutive series of beds sufficiently homogeneous or distinctive to be a unit
6 : an arrangement of a body or group of persons or things in some prescribed manner or for a particular purpose
Thanks for that. I'll look into that further.
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I honostly don't think Lightseeker your assumptions line up with scripture.
Ive seen you make some, however i still don't know what this debate is about.
Are we arguing The trinity(False doctrine)? Or perhaps wether in Death we live, or die? (Meaning we go up to heaven with God in our spirit, or do we sleep in the grave?)
To me the answer to that is qiuet obviouse, what does scripture say?
"LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH" to quote King David ;)
And Gensis plainly tells us that because God gave us THE BREATH OF LIFE (Spirit) MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL. So Man is the LIVING SOUL. M
At death, the SPIRIT DEPARTS, It returns to God, and that VERY DAY OUR THOUGHTS PERISH. The living Soul is NO MORE.
How is this not comprehendable? I guess those that are blind are really blind, no matter how much you want them to see, and no matter how much they want to see, THE BLIND CANNOT SEE. I learned that not to long ago, but from reading Rays article and it seems almost elimentary but its very true! You would think i would have understood that, but i didn't hehe. Now i do though! :D Praise be God!
Alright im done rambling i don't know what we are debating, but i decided to flap my lips, errr move my fingers on a keyboard :D
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lilitalienboi16
To me the answer to that is qiuet obviouse, what does scripture say?
"LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH" to quote King David
Do you have an address for this verse? I looked in 6 translations before giving up. A little help please.
Are we arguing The trinity(False doctrine)?
I'm trying to understand what it means to be made in the image of God in Genesis.
Or perhaps wether in Death we live, or die? (Meaning we go up to heaven with God in our spirit, or do we sleep in the grave?)
Yes, resurrection life (aonios) in this age, for our mortal soul, will only come from dying to self. At death our spirit goes to God
PHI 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ,
And Gensis plainly tells us that because God gave us THE BREATH OF LIFE (Spirit) MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL. So Man is the LIVING SOUL. M
A traditional interpretation but it doesn't work scripturally for me. I've explained my position earlier with no rebuttal which convinced me differently. :cry:
At death, the SPIRIT DEPARTS, It returns to God, and that VERY DAY OUR THOUGHTS PERISH. The living Soul is NO MORE.
At death the spirit departs and the body dies and decays in sheol along with all the soul (mind, will, emotions) which were never renewed unto the mind of Christ. But that part of the soul which became 'alive' unto Christ will remain unto the day of the bema judgment seat of Christ. There all the works which were 'of the Sspirit led mind of Christ' will receive a reward. The renewed soul sleeps but the unrenewed soul perishes. The soul isn't an all or nothing salvation, it is from one degree to another, and merely measures your spiritual growth. And the glorified body will represent that same degree of spiritual maturity.
That's what I'm thinking anyway. But that's also why I'm always open to hear other opinions :?
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First of all, The NEW TESTEMENT. REfers to DEATH as SLEEP. Even Jesus Himself said DEATH WAS SLEEP.
How do you believe that even though "GOD NEVER CHANGES." "JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW" that when we die our soul is still alive? IT IS DEAD. Let me show you with scripture.
David compares death to sleep in Psalm 13
PSALM 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; enlighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (NKJV)
PSALM 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence; (NASB)
The new testement re-assures us that all those who died, are dieng and will DIE, ARE DEAD to the day. None have gone to heaven.
ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)
David new when He dies He would sleep, and the new testement re-affirms that belief that HE IS STILL DEAD TO THAT DAY!
The New Testament speaks of death as sleep many times also:
JOHN 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." 12 Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead." (NKJV)
These are the words of JESUS HIMSELF YOUR GOD.
ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (NKJV)
Do you honostly think Steph got tired and took a nap while being stoned to death? Obviously not He was praying to God to recieve -- NOTICE CAREFULLY -- HIS SPIRIT. NOT HIS SOUL. MAN IS THE LIVING SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE DIED. HE IS ASLEEP TO THIS DAY!
I CORINTHIANS 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. (NKJV)
Again there is that reference to sleep as death.
I CORINTHIANS 15:6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. (NKJV)
II PETER 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." (NKJV)
Again death as sleep.
DANIEL 12:13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (NKJV)
The angel concerning Daniel told Him what would Happen. He would REST UNTIL THE END OF DAYS (Ressurection of the dead) THE ANGEL OF GOD said this. You believe scripture lightseeker?
JOHN 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (RSV
EPHESIANS 5:13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." (NKJV)
More scripture showing everyone is in the tomb (Shoel/Grave/Hades) till the day of the RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. NOT THE LIVING. THE DEAD.
I believe Paul is talking to you hear lightseeker.
I CORINTHIANS 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen .14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up -- if in fact the dead do not rise .(NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (NKJV)
Should i go on, do you need more scriptural proof that WHEN YOUD IE YOU SLEEP? Fine let me do it to nail it through your head, God willing you are not blind to the truth.
I THESSALONIANS 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. (NASB)
I THESSALONIANS 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. (NIV)
I THESSALONIANS 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. (NIV)
If you think anyone goes to Heaven right after they die, you are going completely against scripture. Not only does the Oldtestement affirm this belief, but so does the New Testement. Jesus Himself Told us LAZURUS SLEEPS. PLAINLY HE IS DEAD! Now, Jesus AFTER HIS DEATH, After BEING RESSURECTED, JESUS HAD STILL NOT YET ASCENDED TO HEAVEN!!!!
JOHN 20:15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him, "Rabboni!" (which is to say, Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " (NKJV)
Must i go on? Lightseeker if you still do not understand this concept of Death is like SLeep, then i cannot say anymore. Your argument is against scripture, and not me. Your argument is with the Word of GOd.
God bless,
May He open your eyes to this truth.
Edit: For spelling :)
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What is it that you two have been debating all these days? I'm not even sure Lightseeker is arguing on behalf of an "immortal soul" doctrine. Or am I wrong? :?
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I missed my conference...wrong weekend. I also edited some of your quote Ray to save space not change your thoughts.
Hillsbororiver
Sorry Dee I can't see your quote from Galations backing your supposition, it is clear that the breath of life from God and the body formed by God is what constitutes our "living soul." There is no doubt or argument that the desires of the flesh and the Spirit of God are not compatible. Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul5315.
The original Hebrew shows the word "nephesh" to be a breathing creature.
I do not see the "soul" (your definition) lining up behind the flesh or the Spirit here either;
#1504;פשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite (emotions?) , beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust (of the eyes = soul?) , man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
I have seen scripture use heart & mind as synonyms for our thought/thinking process, but not soul, soul is body + breath of life.
I understand your difficulty with my perspective:
Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?
Let me try to show some which indicate there's something more than I was taught in the church.
1PE 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
If our souls were saved when we said "Yes" to Jesus then why is Peter talking about a future salvation of the soul here to "Christians". Weren't they (if a soul is man) or their souls (my view) already saved? I don't believe so.
1PE 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Here he's talking about 'us' purifying our soul by obeying the truth which comes from/through the Spirit. Where does the decision to obey come from? The implication here is, from the soul (mind, will, intellect) I think. The spirit wants always wants to, the flesh never wants to. We purify (work out the salvation of) our soul by deciding to obey...don't we? That's been my experience anyhow.
JAM 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
How is our soul saved? Here James is writing to "Christians" telling them how. It is once again by walking in obedience to the word which comes from the leading to the Sspirit IMO. And what is the engrafting process talked about here? I think the following verse explains it. For me at least.
ROM 12:1,2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service :2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Where does the decision to crucify the flesh come from? According to the above scripture it's the mind (soul/psuche mind, will, emotions).
The spirit will always try to point us to the tree of life and not the tree of good and evil. The flesh will always do the opposite. It's the mind will emotions of the soul which decide who to listen to or be led by. That's what these verses seem to indicate to me. My soul (mind will emotions psyche) must decide to obey the lust of the spirit or the lust of the flesh which Galatians talks about.
The heart in Heb and Gr both speak of thoughts, feelings, mind, intellect. But I place the heart in the realm of the subconscious soul/mind versus the conscious soul/mind. That treasure which is truely deposited in the depths of our mind is programed into the DNA of the physical body. It is no longer short term memory memes...but affects our action when we don't have a chance to think. Like hitting your finger with the hammer while next to your "Christian" brother. What comes out of your mouth is that which is programmed deep.
I hope this helps shed light on why I question the traditional definiton, even if it's not how you see it. I believe I'm presenting scripture which indicates there's more to consider.
Good night all, :-k