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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Gina on December 16, 2014, 02:40:37 AM
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Deleted. :)
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Hello Gina,
I agree, it’s a beautiful story, it reminds me of Christ sacrifice for the sins of the world. Feeding ones children is a right and noble thing to do but the fact remains Grandma is a shoplifter.
The officer involved is also guilty of dereliction of duty, his job is to enforce the law which he failed to do.
Every time someone shoplifts the cost is always passed off to we the consumers. I say throw Grandma in jail and fired the office for dereliction of duty.
Stealing is wrong, even if one steals to feed their young, its still wrong, ( thou shall not steal.)
Life is not fair Gina, life was not meant to be fair on this side of the resurrection, many people suffer greatly, the heart aches in this life seem as endless as the crimes we human beings commit.
But I do agree with you Gina, it is a beautiful story of forgiveness, compassion and love. :)
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All I can say to that is, I hope you're not in law enforcement. You scare me.
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No Gina, I’m not in law enforcement but even if I were , why be scared ....lol
I refuse to say wrong doing is right, Grandma in the story is clearly wrong. I agree the story or link you deleted was one of compassion and that is awesome being a believer in Christ but its not me who scare you, is it Gina.
Why did you delete the link you put up and then afterwards come back and make another statement ? What’s up with that?
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Hi folks,
I was in law enforcement. So what is the question we are struggling with?
Law, rules, duty, mercy, love etc.; even in the secular world. What seems difficult to understand?
May we be a little more specific? This could be a helpful lesson...
Thank you please...
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Rick,
I put up the link because I thought it was a beautiful story. There was no crime because the cop paid for the 3 (3!) eggs.
But you think the grandma should be thrown in jail at a cost of at least $40 a day to house her (how much did those 3 eggs cost?).
And you also think the cop should be promptly fired for paying for the eggs and not throwing her in jail, for which the state would potentially have a major unemployment lawsuit on their hands, costing taxpayers how many tens of thousands of dollars? In addition to the money it would have cost to jail the grandmother for however many days in addition to possibly having to place the children in foster care, at an additional cost to taxpayers? I mean, who do think pays for all this stuff, Rick? The tooth fairy?
I hope you're not in the banking business, either. You really do scare me.
I think the cop took the most cost-effective, compassionate approach. Maybe it even sent a message to other hotheaded, overworked cops to take a friggin' chill pill!
In closing: I will not get into with you over something so petty because I can discern that you are the type who gets off on this sort of thing. And I will not be contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
Out of one side of your mouth you say "fire him! throw her in jail!" And out of the other you say, "Compassion, forgiveness, beautiful."
But I won't hold that against you.
Rick, I'm warning you: I could cut you down so far you would wish you never met me. Ask anybody here, but I do not want to go that route, so let's drop it before an argument breaks out. I would prefer to be the bigger person and take the high road. If you want I can delete the entire thread? Because I don't want to be contributing to your further downfall.
i-Bob, it's no big deal. If it's all the same to you, maybe you and Rick could discuss this via PM?
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If no crime was committed why were the police called or did the officer just happen to show up?
After reading your last reply I think its best we stop any further communication between we two.
Have a nice day and God bless you Gina . :)
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Rick,
I put up the link because I thought it was a beautiful story. There was no crime because the cop paid for the 3 (3!) eggs.
But you think the grandma should be thrown in jail at a cost of at least $40 a day to house her (how much did those 3 eggs cost?).
And you also think the cop should be promptly fired for paying for the eggs and not throwing her in jail, for which the state would potentially have a major unemployment lawsuit on their hands, costing taxpayers how many tens of thousands of dollars? In addition to the money it would have cost to jail the grandmother for however many days in addition to possibly having to place the children in foster care, at an additional cost to taxpayers? I mean, who do think pays for all this stuff, Rick? The tooth fairy?
I hope you're not in the banking business, either. You really do scare me.
I think the cop took the most cost-effective, compassionate approach. Maybe it even sent a message to other hotheaded, overworked cops to take friggin' take a chill pill!
In closing: I will not get into with you over something so petty because I can discern that you are the type who gets off on this sort of thing. And I will not be contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
Out of one side of your mouth you say "fire him! throw her in jail!" And out of the other you say, "Compassion, forgiveness, beautiful."
But I won't hold that against you.
Rick, I'm warning you: I could cut you down so far you would wish you never met me. Ask anybody here, but I do not want to go that route, so let's drop it before an argument breaks out. I would prefer to be the bigger person and take the high road. If you want I can delete the entire thread? Because I don't want to be contributing to your further downfall.
i-Bob, it's no big deal. If it's all the same to you, maybe you and Rick could discuss this via PM?
Gina, you seem to be sowing discord over a political matter which has no place on these forums even if in the off topic section. Rick's post was spot on. If you find offense or reason to fear Rick then there is something else going on here that is beyond Rick's control or the post he made.
If you break the law then you should expect to be dealt with accordingly. When you break God's law, you are also judged and punished accordingly. A few stripes or many. Nevertheless, there are consequences. We are to be subject to the powers that be for they are ordained by God. In resisting those powers we are resisting God's plan and declaring Him unfit as our King through our lack of faith and trust in what He is doing.
Please take any and all politically charged topics to another forum. They are not welcome here and serve only to sow discord amongst brethren. They are not profitable for the growth of the body and this thread is a perfect example of that.
In Christ,
Alex
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I don't know if you saw the article or if it was deleted before you could read it, Alex, but I don't think Rick's post was spot on.
Here's the article in case you missed it. http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2014/12/tarrant_police_officer_deliver.html
It's a very small crime, stealing a few eggs to feed her kids. Rick's pronouncing some pretty large judgments on the woman and officer, to be thrown in jail and fired.
It reminds me of the parable in Matthew 18. A servant is in debt for 10,000 talents to his master and can't pay. The master is going to sell the servant, his wife and kids and all they own so that payment can be made. The servant pleads for patience and he will pay everything. The master has pity and releases the servant and forgives his debt. Kind of like the police officer forgiving the woman and then buying her the food. True, the woman did commit a crime, as did the servant by not paying, but both were forgiven.
Then the servant goes to one of his fellow servants for a much smaller debt to be payed. When the fellow servant can't pay, he has him thrown in jail, kind of like Rick saying the woman should be thrown in jail.
I think Gina is the one who's spot on, though I think she came on too strong at the end. I have nothing against Rick, I think he's a fine person who's grown a lot since he's been here.
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I just thought it was a beautiful story. I had no intention of sowing discord. I don't think I came on too strong. I could have come on a lot stronger, but then I'd only embarrass myself and everyone here. The truth is, I was actually restraining my lips, but I had to vent --just like we all do from time to time. Rick was tempting me to succumb to my flesh and I fell. I'm sorry. I believe Rick actually owes me an apology for making me fall like that, but far be it from me to grab him by the throat and make him give me one.
I really only wanted to post what I thought was a beautiful story. But I deleted it because it was sowing discord.
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Seems to be a lot of pointing fingers... Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure... It is all Gods work and I see He does it on this forum!!
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I just thought it was a beautiful story. I had no intention of sowing discord. I don't think I came on too strong. I could have come on a lot stronger, but then I'd only embarrass myself and everyone here. The truth is, I was actually restraining my lips, but I had to vent --just like we all do from time to time. Rick was tempting me to succumb to my flesh and I fell. I'm sorry. I believe Rick actually owes me an apology for making me fall like that, but far be it from me to grab him by the throat and make him give me one.
I really only wanted to post what I thought was a beautiful story. But I deleted it because it was sowing discord.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform (bring about) that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Love you, Gina. Welcome to my world. ;D
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No need for us to get caught up in the right or wrong of that situation. The fact is the poor are a big part of this age... a good deed yes, but that was only a band aid for a much bigger problem.
Mark 14:7 For you have the poor with you always, and whenever you wish you may do them good; but Me you do not have always.
These things should make us long for the return of Christ to set up His kingdom... and not as a far distance hope either.
Mat 24:32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
v. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
Only then will this world will be put right, the hungry will have plenty of food to eat, both physically and spiritual food as well.
Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Since this is Christmas time, :D :D :D
the words of Tiny Tim come to mind,
"God bless us, Everyone!"
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Since this is Christmas time, :D :D :D
the words of Tiny Tim come to mind,
"God bless us, Everyone!"
8)
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(http://travsd.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/tiny-tim.jpg)
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If any of you celebrate Christmas, I hope u have a great pagan time.
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I'll be working 6-2 that day, but I plan to spend the rest of it cowering under my sheets so I don't accidentally enjoy the company.
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It's a beautiful story to me and what Gina shared. It shows what God brings us through and we all make mistakes a long the way but we learn that we are not alone through it.
I feel like banging my head against the wall some times, should I be doing this or doing that and not doing this and not doing that. I feel concerned sometimes I turn my back on God and open myself to the ways of this world which only results in more of the banging of the head going on.
I learn through it all not to condemn and judge others as I was there too but too love and care as I can even though I feel I come so short of that at times. I know God is doing a good work and in that I rejoice.
I feel I want to get closer to the truth but every step towards it seems to find another obstacle in the path. It seems to all make this life more difficult, yes there if freedom in doing right but it comes at a cost.
The previous posts mention Christmas and I find that a challenge too but I agree with what Ray said here:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2759.msg20428.html#msg20428
Yes, Christimas and all of its accoutrements and paraphania (evergreen tree, orbs, eggs, mistletoe, presents, winter solstice, yule logs, fires, drinking, etc.) are also pagan. But then again virtually all who shun this day with great horror think nothing of having a traditional wedding with the same pagan acoutrements (vale, something old, something new; something borrowed, something blue, rings, rice, honeymoon, bells, wedding cake, etc.). Then of course at least some of them have their boys in the Boy Scouts with all their pagan accoutrements (left-handed locking little finger hand shake, spirit of scouting, the insignia--fleur-de-lis, etc). Did I mention that it was the pagans who whore shoes before the Christians. The Scriptures tell us that we should "Be ye not righteous over much" (Ecc. 7:16). And Paul said: "To the pure all things are pure." I just don't get all bent out of shape over these things. I personally do not get caught up in the "spirit" of any of these things, but neither do I condemn those who do. These are things that each of us must decide in their own way. However, for what it is worth: Dumping Christmas for Hannukah seems to me like jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
There are so many pagan things around us and many we do we don't even realise at the time. I learn over time and find that as God's truth sinks in those things become less interesting. Like Ray said how he does not get caught up in the spirit of them and I feel more that way myself now but still associate with some things but more for the benefit of others as I see little in it for me. I find myself struggling with that one, sometimes I just walk away and have nothing to do with it, this can annoy some people and yet other times I get involved but look to share some truth about it to others while not getting too involved in it. Start getting too involved and I want to walk out of the room.
I find peace in be a light in those situations even though it seems a dim light and not sure if it's a light or not but I feel I still grow in His truth even though I seem so unsure about things at times.
I agree with the comment by Kat "These things should make us long for the return of Christ to set up His kingdom... and not as a far distance hope either"
That's what I long for then these things would be less of an issue.
Just thinking out aloud, maybe some would understand where I'm coming from but OK if you don't. I'm not so sure I do
Rhys
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I love that, Rhys. You always nail it. Thanks for coming to my rescue.
I'm just amazed that believers think we're never to judge. But we have to judge. Paul told the Corinthians they weren't even able to judge the smallest of matters. It's not that we're never judge. Of course we are, but Paul was angered because the Corinthians were dragging their brothers and sisters and neighbors before unbelieving judges to settle matters.
And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? (1 Cor. 6:2)
See, the thing I thought was so cool about the story was that the cop convinced the shopkeeper to not do that. The cop was very, very wise. He saved them all a tremendous amount of time, heartache and money. He settled it right there. I just love that cop.
The Tiny Tim posts can just go straight back to hades where they came from. I know what you're up to. Get thee hence.
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Good point about the judging. I am referring to this sort:
Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Joh 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
Using right judgement is what it's about than just what things appear to be, something I am still guilty of now and then.
Need to see the bigger picture and that is what the cop saw
Rhys
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But I’m telling you, why you’ll only see a speck. Because you’re not living by faith and your living by sight and the carnality of the mind, through sight and what you see. When that sight is impeded you don’t see very well, so you think your brother has a speck in his eye, he does not. He has a beam in his eye too. But you can’t see it with a beam in your eye. Are you following this? You can’t see it with a beam in your eye. If you get that beam out and you say, 'OH! I thought it was a speck, it’s a beam!'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
Jesus didn't say not judge at all. He said, You hypocrite! [to his own disciples] First get the beam out of your eye and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
They were yet carnal. They had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they were unconverted. They were totally blind. [Jesus said they were blind: "If the blind lead the blind both will fall into a ditch.] They didn't have the mentality, or the mind of Christ, with which to judge their brother correctly because they had yet to judge themselves.
Is that about right, Rhys?
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That's the one
I wish I could explain as good as Ray did in that passage
Rhys ;)
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I don't think paul was admonishing brothers and sisters, beloved, chosen of God, the saints, "my church," to judge the ungodly and the world but rather to JUDGE THEMSELVES. That is, each man to judge himself, BECAUSE one day we will judge the world. For now though, we voluntarily judge ourselves because Christ helps us judge ourselves that we should not be condemned with the world. Gehenna fire. Leave the world and all its issues to God. He is running the show and its all going acccording to His plan. For us, we mind ourselves, "oh man," and the beam in our own eye, until we overcome, endure to the end--are saved.
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
If every member of the body of Christ judged him/herself, no matter of the church would ever go before the pagan world and there would be no need to judge your brother (the "you hypocrite!" part), and instead would be subject to the rule of God and His righteous judgments. His gehenna Fire.
There are verses that place an emphasis on not judging a brother in Christ besides what was stated in the sermon:
Romans 10-13 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."
James 4:11 "Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge."
James 4:12 "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?"
So with this, and the sermon on the mount, I see an emphasis on judging ourselves, don't judge your brother or the world. God is dealing with your brothers and sisters in the fire of Gehenna, and He is doing with the world as He see's fit. The time will come to judge the world (not your brothers) but it is not now. For now, we are HID in Christ.
This is how I see it when considering "the sum of thy word." Feel free to agree or disagree.
God bless,
Alex
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That's the one
I wish I could explain as good as Ray did in that passage
Rhys ;)
Me too. I just wonder if we have this judging thing figured out. I mean, Jesus called his own disciples "hypocrites," after he tells them to not judge.
And then he goes: " do not give that which is holy to the dogs or throw your pearls before swine."
Don't judge your brother. Then he calls the pharisees snakes, fools, and hypocrites.
Obviously calling someone what they are or saying what they are doing isn't judging them or condemning them, because if that were the case, then Romans Chapter 1 and some of the words in the gospels need to be deleted.
I believe is a difference between judging, condemning and confrontation. Most people don't like confrontation. I don't mind it so much. But I don't want to cut off someone's ear, either, or descend into arguments that aren't profitable.
At one point, Paul was livid with the Corinthians because they were "proud," because they were allowing some man who was in bed with his father's wife to remain in their church. He said, why are you proud? Get the mofro out! [ okay he didn't say mofro, I think he called him an infidel] Turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. I mean, back in Romans 2, he just got finished telling them not to judge!
Obviously we're talking about two different things here and not understanding what judgment and condemnation is. I believe that Jesus and Paul are talking about judging and condemning under the physical laws of the land, the same laws that were later jumbled up by the pharisees. But it's obviously hardly judging or condemning to call someone what they are or to be saying, hey - you're doing such and such, that's wrong! That's not judging because if it were, then Paul and Jesus couldn't tell the Romans and Corinthians and the disciples what they were doing was wrong. Nobody could tell anybody they're doing wrong!
And then, there was another time where he told Timothy to admonish them once or twice and after that to reject -- those want to argue about the law [of Moses] and geanologies and this and that and the other. He said, admonish them once or twice, and after that reject. So clearly, rejection is not judging or condemning someone. Nor is handing someone over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, condemning or judging.
So, I'm trying to understand what this "not judge or condemn" thing is really meaning.
I mean, for instance, Alex (not to start a war or whatever) told me that I was sowing discord with my post and wanting to get political. Clearly that was not him judging me. That was just how he saw what I was doing because of the things I was saying to Rick - who was actually the one who started it :P he got political. Which is not to judge Rick at all, but that's what he was doing -- getting political and judging the woman under the laws of our land.
I mean, I'm glad we don't live in Iran or some country where the penalty for stealing is literally cutting off someone's hand! Both Alex and Rick agreed, that the woman deserved to be judged and punished according to our human laws.
And neither one of them have come back and said, wow, I see that I was wrong! But that's okay. I understand why. It was not easy to admit that the post was sowing discord. It was not easy to take down the link because I truly thought as I said in my original post that "This is a beautiful story." I mean, wow. It was not easy to admit that I fell to the flesh, but what choice did I have? It wasn't easy to put up the story later on, and then get ridiculed for that, too.
Had I known that it was going to devolve into Tiny Tim posts, I promise you all I would have never posted this topic or put up a link. I think I'll delete my story too.
Anyway, Alex, I'm sorry, I see you posted something, but I have not read it. And so I can't agree or disagree. I'll just be over here getting this big log out of my eye if anyone wants me.
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Ola Rick
You say,"I agree, it’s a beautiful story, it reminds me of Christ sacrifice for the sins of the world." then you turnaround and say,"...the fact remains Grandma is a shoplifter." and then you say,"The officer involved is also guilty of dereliction of duty, his job is to enforce the law which he failed to do." and then you say,"Stealing is wrong, even if one steals to feed their young, its still wrong, ( thou shall not steal.)" and then you say,"But I do agree with you Gina, it is a beautiful story of forgiveness, compassion and love."
Sincerely, you are contradicting yourself.where is there "forgiveness,compassion and love?" Even on your 2nd reply to Gina, it contradicts your,"..it reminds me of Christ sacrifice.." statement. where are the similarities between Christs sacrifice and this story?We'll wait for your reply.
Ola Gina
Gina you said,"I think the cop took the most cost-effective, compassionate approach. Maybe it even sent a message to other hotheaded, overworked cops to take a friggin' chill pill!"
Now here is a question to you Gina. what do you think the cop should do when the shop owners call him next time about another "delinquency of a minor?"
Options:
1)You could arrest the thief, but WAIT!If you arrest the thief then one could ask,"Mr Cop, why didn't you arrest the grandma who stole last week for a similar crime?". If you still arrest the thief then you would be guilty of being partial, showing favoritism, letting one go free and arresting the other. And we know showing partiality is a SIN. 1 Timothy 5:21- NIV"...keep these instructions without partiality, and to do NOTHING(absolutely nothing) out of favoritism. James 2:9 NIV" But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. Proverbs 24:23,24 NIV"To show partiality in judging is not good:Whoever says to the guilty,'You are innocent'-peoples will curse him and nations denounce him.
2) If you do to the 2nd thief what you did to the grandma, then it may come to a point where the shop owners think,"Ok, this is getting out of hand now! We call this cop to arrest a thief and he lets them go.This is the 2nd time now. I wonder what would happen should a serious crime happen,what's he gonna do?" Possibly, the shop owners will report you to your authorities and you'll loose your job.
3) Other.If you choose this option, please explain how you would help the cop get out of this hole that he just put himself in.
We'll wait for your reply
NB:You said,:"I'm warning you: I could cut you down so far you would wish you never met me. Ask anybody(WOOOOW!Really?ANYBODY?Does this include even those who don't know YOU) here, but I do not want to go that route, so let's drop it before an argument breaks out."-Sincerely Gina, i think you are the one who needs a "friggin' chill pilll" or "you could cut" yourself "down so far you would wish you never met" yourself. It's not Rick you'll be destroying/cutting Gina, you'd be destroying/cutting yourself. AND you can ask "anybody here" who keeps the Law.
Ola Alex
You said:"Gina, you seem to be sowing discord over a political matter.."
Comment: This is not a political matter. Indianabob said:"This could be a helpful lesson..." and i agree with him. Though, you are right when saying Gina is "sowing discord ", cause her opinions are misleading those that agree with her, and are misleading hundreds that are reading this thread and not participating.
You said:"Rick's post was spot on."
Comment:No!Rick's post was not "spot on." Its filled with contradictions. He(Rick) is partly right, though, in some of his sentence(s).
How is this a political matter?We'll wait for your reply.
NB:Your post on judging is off base.Perhaps one could start a new thread discussing judging. You say," I see an emphasis on judging ourselves, don't judge your brother or the world." and yet you judge Gina. If you/we take your own interpretation on judging, then that would make you a hypocrite.
Ola Loc
You said,"It reminds me of the parable in Matthew 18:21-35". Sincerely, how on earth does this story remind you of the parable of the Unmerciful Servant?Where are the similarities?
You say,"I think Gina is the one who's spot on,"
Comment:NO!Gina is not spot on.Like Rick, both their spots are off. Although, Rick is partly right.
You may answer the same questions i posed to Gina If you still think she is spot on.
Again, we'll wait for your reply.
Ola Kat
You said,"No need for us to get caught up in the right or wrong of that situation."
Again, Indianabob is right. He said:"This could be a helpful lesson." This is a great opportunity to learn, to Judge, and see the situation as God would see it.After all isn't that what we might do in the age to come?
Ola Rhys
You also follow Gina's point of view i see. You may answer the same questions that i posed to her.
You say,"Using right judgement is what it's about than just what things appear to be."
Comment:You are right, this thread is an opportunity to use the right judgement, and you have failed to do so.
You say,"Need to see the bigger picture and that is what the cop saw."
Comment:No Rhys. Haven't you read or heard? The blind do not see. The cop saw no picture AT ALL!
NB: Did you see what Gina said in another reply? She said,"The cop was very, very wise. He saved them all a tremendous amount of time, heartache and money. He settled it right there. I just love that cop."
Again, we'll wait for your reply.
Indeed indianabob, this is a great opportunity to learn.
Personally, if i was the shop owner,i would've turned the other cheek. After all that is what followers of Christ should do. And the cop?Well lets just say i wouldn't be a cop and a follower of Christ. The job would contradict or come in conflict with Christ eventually.
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Rinus I do not know what you are on about and have not interest in answering your silly questions. We are here to discuss and learn but you are turning it into a big debate that I have no interest in being a part of so will not take any further part of it.
Also remember the rules here
I'd also like to remind the members that the 'subtitle' of the Off-Topics board is "Just for fun posts and lighthearted banter". Just something to think about, should topics start or change into something other than good-hearted and civil fellowship.
Questioning as to trying to get a better understanding of what the Scriptures state as taught by Ray Smith is what we are here for. This forum is for those of “like mind” to fellowship. If you are not of like mind that is fine just don’t post your beliefs, or debate here.
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Hello Rinus, and God bless you.
There is no wisdom in pursuing this subject, in fact , there is more wisdom in locking this thread than exploring it.
Gina feels as she does and I respect Gina as a sister of mine in the Lord , just a thought, perhaps everyone is right from their own perspective. ;)
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I agree with Rhys and Rick. We've already had a few rounds of discussion and said our piece. It looks like everyone still feels the same as they did before. This thread's already gotten ugly and answering Rinus' questions wouldn't help anything.
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This is why we need to stick to the forum rules and discuss what Ray taught and nothing more.
I'm going to lock this topic.