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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on August 02, 2015, 03:40:44 PM
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Should we be asking for forgiveness for sin/s we commit ?
The reason I ask this is because I know the sin issue has been dealt with on the cross. However is forgiveness conditional IF one does not repent ?
Can one repent of anything outside the intentions or will of God ? This has been on my mind, I’m always saying sorry Jesus or forgive me Jesus but lately I been asking what am I to understand from this sin/s, what is it your tying to teach me or get me to understand ?
With me, it seems the more I try not to sin the more I sin, its like I’m better off not even trying.
I must say, sin does keep me humble period, Its impossible for me to think I’m better than anyone because I see my own flaws and flawed am I.
If Christ is working in me then I understand His work in me is on going, if Christ is not working in me then I can at least understand why I sin.
I’m not sure if Christendom is creeping up in me, I remember in Christendom I always felt condemned more than saved or safe with God.
I remain thankful for the truths I learned here I must say, I don’t feel condemned but I now feel unsure if God is working in me now or if His plan is to work in me during the next age.
I sometimes wish I knew for sure if I’m going through the lake of fire now or if my time is in the next age. I don’t know if that would make things different.
I’m thinking there is probably other people besides myself having these same type of thoughts too.
I know that Gods intention and will for my life will come to pass just as He declared it because my will is subjected to His will and Gods will, will be done.
What ever I think do or say has always been done from a caused choice and if its caused then I never operated with free will, or a will free from cause.
Scripture says we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, I do dislike feeling like I’m a slave to sin but then again that maybe telling me something too.
After discovering the things I have learned on this website I can never believe God is anything less than good, I know now God has everyone’s best interest at heart and that’s awesome to me.
In this age things are so difficult and mostly unpleasant at least in my life, whether I’m God’s elect or not I do pray for the return of Jesus, it seems my rowboat is sinking.
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Hi Rick,
I do not believe that forgiveness is conditional if one does not repent. However, if you do not repent, God cannot yet save you as it is the second step in the process towards salvation.
There are many scriptures that indicate that what was done on the cross was a done deal.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Hebrews 9:11-28
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:16 For God thus loves the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for forgiveness even though its already been given once and for all. The reason is that it shows YOU KNOW that what you are doing is not okay. Its a way of God working in you so that you recognize what you are. Guilt is another sign that God is working in you. It shows that you feel remorse and know that you are doing is not right. Its like ray said, eventually you get to a point where the guilt is so bad that you'd rather not feel the guilt then enjoy the momentary pleasure of sinning. All of this though is God working in you and will not come about until the time He appointed.
You will always sin so long as you are in this fleshy body but you can come to a point in your life where sin does not reign in you.
Romans 6:11-15
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
1 Kings 8:46-52
46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
48 And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,
50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:
51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron:
52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?
Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
That's as good as it gets for now but I'd say to get to that point where sin does not reign in our bodies is probably quite a journey and no easy feat. Ray said that being saved is the hardest thing any human being will ever do. I agree with him.
God bless,
Alex
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I do not believe that forgiveness is conditional if one does not repent. However, if you do not repent, God cannot yet save you as it is the second step in the process towards salvation.
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your input as I always appreciate it.
This is also my belief too as you stated above, I understand Gods plan for all humanity which is to save all, no one will be lost. Although God is calling some now He shall call the rest in the next age.
My thoughts are or understanding is which I received from Rays papers would be that it is presumptuous for anyone to think or say to themselves whatever sin they are involved with can control or outright make it disappear.
My understanding of repentance is to repent of whatever sin one is committing or doing and do it no more, but the problem I have with this belief that one has this ability is to believe one operate with free will.
I like how Ray put it in an article of his when he stated that you would think if we had free will you would think of all the people who ever lived someone would of used their free will to not sin.
I also remember Ray said that one will stop sinning when God says one will stop sinning. As I look towards Gods plan for all humanity an what He’s doing I can’t help to think that part of Gods plan involves us to sin as bad as it is it’s a part of Gods plan also.
I remember Ray also saying that if ( not a direct quote ) someone reads his papers an does not believe what he is saying especially with the scriptures he uses to show these marvelous truths its only because God is not calling that one.
My problem is I believe everything Ray says in his papers I cannot be number among his detractors because I cannot go against the truth as I understand it nor do I care to.
God is truly the potter, the clay cannot form itself, can the clay say this I will no longer do ? If there is something in the clay that is not right it can only be God the potter who will fix it.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
God bless all.
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When the Potter has set up all the conditions necessary for you to 'repent', you will repent. Sometimes those conditions are easy, and sometimes they are very, very hard. I try not to forget that paramount in all of these "workings of His will" is that He died for us.
In the meantime, here's three big "IF's".
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
And this from the Lord Jesus:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for forgiveness even though its already been given once and for all.
Hi Alex,
I totally agree with this statement, one should at least say I apologize for this I have done if this I have done is not right, but I believe its God who brings anyone to this point rather than the person themselves coming to this point without God bringing one to this point.
I find or believe this is more about ones life, why do we do the things we do ? Why do we make the decisions we make or not make ?
No mater how one weighs it , it always goes back to the potter, I remember Ray saying more than once throughout his papers he would ask, do you believe the scriptures ?
I’m coming to terms with the fact I am not operating my life according to free will but only with a will that is completely subject to Gods will, I don’t believe I have any say, I may feel I have some say in what I do but its only because God is spirit and I cannot detect God with my senses He has created me with. God can come and go but His movements are undetectable to me.
God has me box in, there is no place inwardly or outwardly one can escape Gods intentions for ones life, God is completely sovereign but again as Ray would say, do we believe the scriptures ?
God bless all. :)
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The Scriptures tell us all have sinned. Three things must occur to remove sin.
1) Forgiveness
2) Repentance
3) Cleansing
It all starts with forgiveness of sin, which only God can do, and which He did before creation.
Below is a study by Ray where he goes in depth into this subject.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
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When the Potter has set up all the conditions necessary for you to 'repent', you will repent.
Hi Dave,
Your statement does coincide with what I believe Ray was saying when he said you will stop sinning when God says you will stop sinning.
When you say ( conditions ) what comes to mind is causes, when God causes us to stop. God sends us thousands of causes that do cause our lives to be lived in the way He determined before we were born what our lives should be.
Where we live what we do, where we work ,the people we meet an so on. I find in me the same law Paul also found in himself too.
Also you put in you reply ( this from the Lord Jesus ) Luk 18:10 to 14
I do thank you for that, there are I believe many of us who can relate to these most comforting scriptures.
Thanks Dave and God bless. :)
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The Scriptures tell us all have sinned. Three things must occur to remove sin.
1) Forgiveness
2) Repentance
3) Cleansing
It all starts with forgiveness of sin, which only God can do, and which He did before creation.
Below is a study by Ray where he goes in depth into this subject.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
Hello John.
Thank you for the link concerning what I’m trying to understand an no one I know of has a better way of explaining these things than Ray.
Thanks again John and God bless.
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Take heed to yourselves: if thy brother sin, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.And if he sin against thee seven times in the day, and seven times turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:3-4
Then came Peter and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? until seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22
Likewise the Lord will do also.
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Hello Santgen,
Although Gods wrath is against those who are perishing in this age His love will shine on the many in the next age at some point, I always keep Gods plan in the forefront of my understanding at all times.
It does appear that forgiveness is very much apart of Gods plan no doubt, but my understanding is that Gods love and forgiveness is with the elect in this age but shall be freely given to the many in the next age to come at some point after the resurrection has taken place.
All are included in Gods plan but the thing is, some now the rest later in the respect that God is only dealing with the elect in this age. Its really like Ray said, do you believe the scriptures ? It really is a great question for one both to ask and to answer for themselves.
Thank you for your reply and God bless. :)
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I have taken the privilege of copying this from Rays papers.
Every vessel of humanity is first made “marred in the hand of the Potter.” ... “the carnal mind is enmity against God,” ... “for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.
Im not sure but Im thinking can something that is marred knows its marred unless God shows that which is marred that it is marred and if God is showing something that it is marred them it would stand to reason that God is working in that persons life that is marred.
Does that make sense ? :-\
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I have taken the privilege of copying this from Rays papers.
Every vessel of humanity is first made “marred in the hand of the Potter.” ... “the carnal mind is enmity against God,” ... “for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.
Im not sure but Im thinking can something that is marred knows its marred unless God shows that which is marred that it is marred and if God is showing something that it is marred them it would stand to reason that God is working in that persons life that is marred.
Does that make sense ? :-\
Hello Rick,
Greetings!
Yes indeed it does make sense.
see.....
A lot of Muslim converted to Christianity. You do know well when original Muslim that is converted to Christianity and is apostasy should be facing death per Sharia law.
When they converted, family, community, friends, relatives should put them in death, and that is their customs and thinking.
Many Muslims that are converted to Christianity willing to face death the first time they saw Jesus. They see the peace inside them and knowing that they will be saved knowing Jesus. Their books and their religion and teachings cannot guarantee about their salvation, so when they heard the good news the persecution, hardships, facing death and many threats are not match with the joy they have experiencing knowing their Saviour.
They are marred and they know that God is working on them.
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I have taken the privilege of copying this from Rays papers.
Every vessel of humanity is first made “marred in the hand of the Potter.” ... “the carnal mind is enmity against God,” ... “for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.
Im not sure but Im thinking can something that is marred knows its marred unless God shows that which is marred that it is marred and if God is showing something that it is marred them it would stand to reason that God is working in that persons life that is marred.
Does that make sense ? :-\
Yes I think you are right, all start out "marred," carnal and in darkness.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
You should read how the church and commentaries twist that Scripture ("the vessel that He made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter") to make it fit what 'they' believe. They think God would/could not make us in such a 'damaged' conditions from the start, oh no it's our supposed free will that brings us to that. Their manipulation of that Scripture reminds me of a famous quote, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave... when first we practice to deceive."
The world is totally deceived and of course a deceived person really believes the lies they're fed, that's the nature of deception and so what they preach is deception as well. It truly is the blind leading the blind.
Matt 15:14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
But what they cannot comprehend or phantom is that it is God who has "marred" us from the beginning. The veil of deception so obscures the truth and blinds the world that they are completely lose in darkness.
2Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
v. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
v. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Only when one "turns to the Lord" and we know that can only be done when the Father draws you to Him (John 6:44), and there are very few being drawn and having their minds open to the truth now... and yes shown that they are "marred."
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
The world is still waiting in darkness, BUT there is hope.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
v. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of Him who subjected it, in hope
v. 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I have taken the privilege of copying this from Rays papers.
Every vessel of humanity is first made “marred in the hand of the Potter.” ... “the carnal mind is enmity against God,” ... “for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.
Im not sure but Im thinking can something that is marred knows its marred unless God shows that which is marred that it is marred and if God is showing something that it is marred them it would stand to reason that God is working in that persons life that is marred.
Does that make sense ? :-\
Hello Rick,
Greetings!
Yes indeed it does make sense.
see.....
A lot of Muslim converted to Christianity. You do know well when original Muslim that is converted to Christianity and is apostasy should be facing death per Sharia law.
When they converted, family, community, friends, relatives should put them in death, and that is their customs and thinking.
Many Muslims that are converted to Christianity willing to face death the first time they saw Jesus. They see the peace inside them and knowing that they will be saved knowing Jesus. Their books and their religion and teachings cannot guarantee about their salvation, so when they heard the good news the persecution, hardships, facing death and many threats are not match with the joy they have experiencing knowing their Saviour.
They are marred and they know that God is working on them.
Hello Santgem,
Muslims are just as deceived as the many, perhaps their religion is the greatest threat to their lives for exchanging the lie for the truth, although its in the plan of God my prays and heart goes out to them all knowing one day we shall all be brothers and sisters.
Thanks for the confirmation to that which I been dwelling on also.
God bless you Santgem. :)
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Hello Kat,
Thank you for your response and confirmation also, I’m not sure is you have meditated on this but I also have been thinking about the many are called but few are chosen.
I’m not sure if Ray has covered that which is on my mind but my thoughts are as scripture states many are called but few are chosen, God is to me obvious calling both groups but I don’t really view it as two groups but only one group which out of the one group God has only chosen what scripture refers to as the few.
I see those who are of the many do have a zeal for God and my thoughts are about God actually dealing with the many but not actually choosing them and all others just don’t believe in a God at all which the many would be placed amongst these who are perishing and will be resurrected into the white throne judgement.
In other words the many have God in their lives but their belief is not of accurate knowledge having exchange the truth of God for a lie where as the few exchanged the lie for the truth seeing where we all start off marred.
Just some thoughts that have been on my mind still dwelling on it.
Thank you Kat and God bless. :)
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I don't think that Ray taught that the greater 'world' is the 'many' who are called.
John's gospel seems to me to 'divide' the human race into those who did not know him (the world at large), those who did not receive Him (the many) and those who received Him and believed on His name (the few). All of the parables concerning the Kingdom, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ all point to this distinction in one way or the other. The parable of the fishermen who cast their nets don't drag up every fish in the sea, but draw up the 'many' from which are chosen the 'few'.
I can only speak from my own experience here, but I don't recall (maybe it was, maybe not--I was just too young and too much has happened since to cloud the issue) a 'fear of hell' being the defining reason for me doing what I knew how to do to 'profess my faith in Christ' and become a christian. My 'memory' is clearer on simply wanting to follow Him and be like Him, in whatever ways I understood at the time. It was after that that the corruption of carnal religion crept into my heart and mind and 'ruined' me. A lot of people seem to begin 'right', but loose their way...and that is clearly addressed by Jesus when we finally have eyes to see it. Religion rots and keeps us from 'growing' in grace and truth, and keeps us from worshiping in Spirit and Truth (assuming we ever did in the first place) until we just don't know what we're doing or why.
Jesus rebuked the religious leaders for traversing the world to make one disciple when afterwards the disciple is turned into two-fold the child of the devil. I believe it is just as imperative for the Muslims to "come out of" the mosque and the Jews to "come out of" the Jewish synagogue as it is for Christians to "come out of" 'our' Babylon. "Christianity" is not the Kingdom--the reign of Christ is. There is no other name given by which man can be saved. NOBODY comes to the Father but by Him.
So I'm glad for those 'coming to Christ' in all honesty and sincerity, but I know that this is only a beginning if it merely means a change in religion. Anyway, EVERYONE will eventually be the ONE LOST SHEEP that the Shepherd goes after, leaving the ninety-and-nine...each in his own turn.
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I don't think that Ray taught that the greater 'world' is the 'many' who are called.
Hello Dave,
I hope I say this right but then again, I don’t always say it right, in fact, you could say I get it right few times rather than many times. Hope that makes some sense. Lol
I don’t believe that the ( as you mention ) ( the greater world ) is apart of the called period. I don’t believe God is working with them at all, however even the ( greater world ) does not have free will so one cannot say God is doing nothing with them as we know all are being directed by God period.
Now , My understanding is there is only the ( many ) period who God calls, just one group, like there is one Father ,one Lord, one baptism. All of the many find themselves in Christendom learning false doctrine, being move further and further from the truth. Yes, Christendom”s false doctrine leads us to believe blasphemous things about our very loving God and also instills fear of eternal punishment that will never end.
I believe from the ( many ) God calls the ( few ) out of Christendom who were chosen before the world was framed. The ( few) who are called cannot take credit for being called, they have not become the few because of something in themselves that entice God to their favor, No man ( CAN BOAST )
This is how I understand these things to be, if one can consider two groups it would seemed to me that the many are one group who is called by God and the ( greater world ) would be the other group who is not being called by God in this age but indeed shall be called in the next age because it is God’s will that all be save and like the scriptures say, Gods will be done an we know Jesus is very good at what He does and Jesus saves period. Jesus savior of the whole world especially those who believe.
God bless. :)
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I’m not sure if Ray has covered that which is on my mind but my thoughts are as scripture states many are called but few are chosen, God is to me obvious calling both groups but I don’t really view it as two groups but only one group which out of the one group God has only chosen what scripture refers to as the few.
I see those who are of the many do have a zeal for God and my thoughts are about God actually dealing with the many but not actually choosing them and all others just don’t believe in a God at all which the many would be placed amongst these who are perishing and will be resurrected into the white throne judgement.
Hi Rick, in speaking of the many called and the few chosen, there is a process which all God's chosen must go through... first we are called into the church, this is our first love, being introduced to God. But as Dave pointed out the carnal church corrupts and we will lose/forsake God while there.
what I knew how to do to 'profess my faith in Christ' and become a christian. My 'memory' is clearer on simply wanting to follow Him and be like Him, in whatever ways I understood at the time. It was after that that the corruption of carnal religion crept into my heart and mind and 'ruined' me. A lot of people seem to begin 'right', but loose their way...and that is clearly addressed by Jesus when we finally have eyes to see it. Religion rots and keeps us from 'growing' in grace and truth, and keeps us from worshiping in Spirit and Truth (assuming we ever did in the first place) until we just don't know what we're doing or why.
What Dave says there fits right along with leaving your first love and building your house on sand (Matt 7), that all happens in the false church "Mystery Babylon." If you are chosen then that all must come crashing down and God draws you out from among the many called. Then He opens our eyes and you begin to see/understand His truths.
Here is where Ray spoke about this in the LOF 13. 'WHO IS THE BEAST?'
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------------------
The Seven [COMPLETE] Churches of God represent the WHOLE CHURCH OF GOD in all generations. And so, what is it that God says those who are ALREADY IN THE CHURCH have to do if they are to overcome and be in the Kingdom of God? Answer:
"Remember therefore from whence you are FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).
Repent of WHAT? Repent of "…leaving your FIRST LOVE."
But you say, "I have never left my first love." Well then, this Scripture isn’t speaking to you. But everyone who does make it into the Kingdom, does leave his first love. There are those, however, who have left their first love, AND DON’T EVEN KNOW IT! Repenting will come especially hard for them, as they see nothing to repent of.
Whenever someone is called of God and he repents, is baptized, confirmed, initiated, or whatever, it is into a church. And sooner or later that particular church will bring you to the point where you will leave your first love for God and turn to the church and its religion as the idol of your heart. God calls His people OUT of the Babylonish System of Religion which has a strangle hold on ‘The Church.’
v
Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).
Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
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And now for one of the most amazing Truths in all Revelation:
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her [Mystery Babylon the Great], MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).
GOD CALLS HIS PEOPLE OUT OF THE VERY CHURCH THAT HE CALLED THEM INTO!
"Many are called but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).
Few realize that there is a "church WITHIN the church." When God chooses us FROM AMONG the called, we become separate from their doctrines and sins. We are still "The Church of the Living God," but we are a peculiar people that no longer follows the traditions of men, which the many called who are building the house upon the sand continue to follow.
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Yes, there is HOPE for all those who build their house upon the sand? But there is hope only according to God’s choosing. Remember, "many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN."
Every one who is chosen out from the called, will have first built their spiritual house upon the sand, and it will FALL! Every one who is of the chosen FEW will leave his "First Love" (Rev. 2:4). There is a time when all of the chosen will "look back," and see a time when they were not, "…FIT for the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62). It happened to Peter, it happened to the other eleven apostles, it happened to Paul, it happened to Paul’s followers, it happened to the entire early church, it will happen to US!
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I showed numerous times that all: leave their first love, forsake Jesus, look back, blaspheme, build a spiritual house upon the sand, etc.
It is when John is standing on the sand of the sea that he first sees the wild beast come up out of the sea. Now the questions become: "WHEN did John stand upon the sand in HIS life? WHEN do we stand upon the sand in OUR lives?
Answer: When the spiritual house that we all build falls down with a ‘GREAT FALL.’ When (notice I did not say, ‘IF’)…when our spiritual house built upon the spiritual sand falls, WE ARE LEFT STANDING ON THE SAND OF THE SEA. We are only INCHES above the very sea itself—the masses and multitudes of humanity who do not have any knowledge of God AT ALL. It doesn’t mean that we have no knowledge of God at all at this quandary in our spiritual lives; it just means that we are no closer to God than all the humanity in the sea. Hence, we are not IN the sea, but rather standing on the SAND of the sea where out spiritual house just FELL!
And since God is not only calling some of us but choosing us also, God begins to teach us anew. And the first thing He begins to show us is the WILD BEAST coming up out of the sea that is the CAUSE of our being overcome and the CAUSE of our spiritual house falling! This wild beast will be reckoned with by all humanity sooner or later.
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And so after we repent of leaving our first love, and all the sin and corruption that goes along with it, what are we to do? Why we begin building our spiritual house upon The ROCK of Jesus Christ—the FOUNDATION of Jesus Christ, of course.
THE HOUSE UPON THE ROCK
"Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon THE rock; And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and it fell NOT; for it was founded [foundationed] upon THE ROCK" (Matt. 7:24-25).
Oh yes, the rains and floods and winds of trials and persecution will surely come, but we have this absolute assurance of God:
"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be GLORY and MAJESTY, DOMINION and POWER, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24).
I love this verse. Read it over a half dozen times. It is sheer spiritual poetry! This is one of those absolutely POWER-PACKED Scriptures that should make our hair stand up! It is in verses like this that the King James Version really shines.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Rick just wanted to let you know that you are not by yourself i'm also walking in those same shoes, while i study here often i can't bring my self to post anymore as i feel i'm the last person to give advice to anyone.
God lead me here i think 2007 and i've read everything on this site seems it took months and then one day i saw the Spirit in Gods word i was so so happy but for me so far thats about as far as i've got, to busy sinning or thinking about sinning i guess, believe me i know the true meaning of Torture 24/7 but as hard as it seems, nothing i feel can make me look back from where i came,all i guess i really know is i once was blind but now i see and for now that keeps me going.
So thanks to all you guys who do post i can't tell you how much it helps.I know we haven't met but i truely love you guys.
Terry
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Hello Rick just wanted to let you know that you are not by yourself i'm also walking in those same shoes, while i study here often i can't bring my self to post anymore as i feel i'm the last person to give advice to anyone.
God lead me here i think 2007 and i've read everything on this site seems it took months and then one day i saw the Spirit in Gods word i was so so happy but for me so far thats about as far as i've got, to busy sinning or thinking about sinning i guess, believe me i know the true meaning of Torture 24/7 but as hard as it seems, nothing i feel can make me look back from where i came,all i guess i really know is i once was blind but now i see and for now that keeps me going.
So thanks to all you guys who do post i can't tell you how much it helps.I know we haven't met but i truely love you guys.
Terry
Hi Terry,
Its people like us Terry that Christ die for, its us nobodies that the kingdom of God is being prepared for .
If you ask me Terry, the difference with me is I know I deserve death, I’m a sinner through and through.
I know better than to raise my eyes towards heaven, be happy, you know the same things I do.
There is nothing special about me that anyone should want to know.
Its better for a man to know what he is an admit it than to know what he is an deny it, for that kind of man only deceives himself.
Its only when we see we are nothing more than a piece of clay in the hands of the potter does Gods peace works in our life and for one to understand we are only a piece of clay is to understand free will is only a hoax.
Your words tell me your doing just fine in that you deceive yourself not. I know I’m not alone Terry for there are many just like me who Christ will bring into perfection in His time.
God has blessed you be happy.
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Hi Kat, I would just like to add to this....
I have taken the privilege of copying this from Rays papers.
Every vessel of humanity is first made “marred in the hand of the Potter.” ... “the carnal mind is enmity against God,” ... “for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.
Im not sure but Im thinking can something that is marred knows its marred unless God shows that which is marred that it is marred and if God is showing something that it is marred them it would stand to reason that God is working in that persons life that is marred.
Does that make sense ? :-\
Yes I think you are right, all start out "marred," carnal and in darkness.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
You should read how the church and commentaries twist that Scripture ("the vessel that He made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter") to make it fit what 'they' believe. They think God would/could not make us in such a 'damaged' conditions from the start, oh no it's our supposed free will that brings us to that. Their manipulation of that Scripture reminds me of a famous quote, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave... when first we practice to deceive."
The world is totally deceived and of course a deceived person really believes the lies they're fed, that's the nature of deception and so what they preach is deception as well. It truly is the blind leading the blind.
Matt 15:14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
But what they cannot comprehend or phantom is that it is God who has "marred" us from the beginning. The veil of deception so obscures the truth and blinds the world that they are completely lose in darkness.
2Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
v. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
v. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Only when one "turns to the Lord" and we know that can only be done when the Father draws you to Him (John 6:44), and there are very few being drawn and having their minds open to the truth now... and yes shown that they are "marred."
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
The world is still waiting in darkness, BUT there is hope.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
v. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of Him who subjected it, in hope
v. 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
It seems in showing us that we are marred is a process
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
As His work continues in me I am ever careful to remember to take heed, because I don't know what part of the beast is about to be revealed to me!
Lots of great post here, thank you everyone.
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If you do not forgive others God will not forgive you.
3 Witnesses
Matt 6:15, Matt 18:35, Mark 11:26
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If you do not forgive others God will not forgive you.
3 Witnesses
Matt 6:15, Matt 18:35, Mark 11:26
Hi Largeli,
I’m reviewing Ray’s free will series again, I know Ray said one will not stop doing what they do until God says they will stop.
I’m wondering if somehow I misconstrue what Ray had taught on the subject of free will, all have a will, everyone’s will is subjected to Gods will. What I’m trying to understand now is the fact that I do have a will and is my will subjected to Gods will 24/7 / 365.
My thinking is along these lines, not if but when I sin can I say God made me sin ? God forbid I should believe such a thing, it was my choice to make. Now, Ray said if a man rapes a women, one cannot say it was God who ordained that sin to happen so in other words God does not ordain sin.
Well what else does a person do in the course of their life that God does not ordain? Ray teaches that no one has ever made an uncaused choice so we can conclude that every choice one makes has a cause behind it which is true but its possible to say everything I do is of God in that He is the creator but we know not everything is by God.........God does not ordain sin nor has God given anyone permission to sin.
A key thing to me that Ray mentioned was he ate some girl scot cookies that had nothing to do with God, in other words God doesn’t say what one will eat or perhaps even wear.
We are not mindless robots God created , we take in information we process that information and we make a choice. We make choices according to our circumstances but here Ray eluded circumstances concerning him eating girl scot cookies, did God know he would eat girl scot cookies at that specific time and date perhaps but I don’t know for sure one way or the other.
You gave three scriptures saying if we do not forgive then God will not forgives us our sin/s which according to scripture is true, now here comes the big BUT, is Ray right in saying one will not stop sinning until God says they will ? Not being forgiving is a sin is it not ?
So if someone offends me, is it up to God if I forgive that person or can I, not being a mindless robot choice to forgive that person whether God wills me to forgive that person or not ?
Is it possible to say God did when God did not ? Anyways I’ll be chilling in the free will section for the time being.
This topic was not about forgiving someone but should we ask forgiveness for ourselves knowing Christ already paid for the sins of the world especially those who believe.
God bless. :)
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Rick:
Firstly, "forgiveness" is not the equivalent of "salvation". Salvation is FROM something. Salvation is a process. God's forgiveness is the first 'step' of that process in salvation from sin. The next two are 'repentance' and 'cleansing'. None of those words are theological terms. They are sound language. Since "salvation" is a process, it begins and ends and has a middle. Every step of that process has a beginning an end and a middle. Some are being "saved" now. All will be saved one day. But nobody who hasn't undergone the "process" will ever be "saved" until they have. It's axiomatic. That's what "salvation" IS.
Just listened to this today. Listen and get far more than I can communicate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5YCfZQ7XfU
Secondly, why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness? Are you afraid of breaking some theological rule? If you know your sins are forgiven, give thanks. If you believe that until you forgive, you won't be forgiven...then at least you know where to start. "FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES..." The Lord Jesus taught us to pray that.
Thirdly, a question for you. You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?
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Rick, I'm a little late here but I was dealing with a sin that just was eating my guts out. I discovered something, oh, and by the way, i always agree with God about my sinning. How can i not when the darn thing tortures me. I quit saying, "forgive me" because I would do it again and that's when the spiral downward started. I was FOCUSING on the sin and NOT on God. Good trick of the evil one to get your eyes off God. So, I took my eyes off the sin, believed I was forgiven because He is the Author and Finisher of our faith and our life and He was in charge. Once I delved back whole heartedly into the Lord, the sin ceased to have control. Does it still tempt, yes, but it doesn't have me in it's claws anymore. I now have a choice where before I was a slave to it. It's hard to explain when something as dramatic as this happens and put it into words.
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Rick:
Firstly, "forgiveness" is not the equivalent of "salvation". Salvation is FROM something. Salvation is a process. God's forgiveness is the first 'step' of that process in salvation from sin. The next two are 'repentance' and 'cleansing'. None of those words are theological terms. They are sound language. Since "salvation" is a process, it begins and ends and has a middle. Every step of that process has a beginning an end and a middle. Some are being "saved" now. All will be saved one day. But nobody who hasn't undergone the "process" will ever be "saved" until they have. It's axiomatic. That's what "salvation" IS.
Just listened to this today. Listen and get far more than I can communicate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5YCfZQ7XfU
Secondly, why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness? Are you afraid of breaking some theological rule? If you know your sins are forgiven, give thanks. If you believe that until you forgive, you won't be forgiven...then at least you know where to start. "FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES..." The Lord Jesus taught us to pray that.
Thirdly, a question for you. You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?
Hi Dave,
First , I thank you for the link you put up, I listened to that link twice this morning, what a beautiful way to spend my Sunday morning as I enjoyed the topic very much.
You asked me three questions Dave, 1st why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness? I do ask forgiveness Dave but my original question or statement was referring to Christ paid for the sins of the world and if Christ already paid for the sins of the world that would mean before anyone sins they are already forgiven before they ask to be forgiven.
But there are those scriptures that Largeli put up and cannot be denied and also there is another scripture that says if we ask forgiveness Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us .
So, I’m not as sure about my original statement as I first was when I had ask that question.
2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? )
Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?
Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?
I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.
Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.
God bless.
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2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? )
Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?
Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?
I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.
Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.
God bless.
Rick, this is the root of your 'struggle' with this issue. From your answer, though you 'know' some truths hidden from the world, you don't really believe in God. At least not the God revealed in Scripture.
I suppose it's also possible you didn't really read the question. So I'll give you another shot at it.
If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?
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2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? )
Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?
Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?
I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.
Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.
God bless.
Rick, this is the root of your 'struggle' with this issue. From your answer, though you 'know' some truths hidden from the world, you don't really believe in God. At least not the God revealed in Scripture.
I suppose it's also possible you didn't really read the question. So I'll give you another shot at it.
If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?
Hi Dave,
I don’t agree with your statement Dave, I believe God does exist , I believe in creation by design.
You asked a hypothetical question which I should of know better to answer but nonetheless I did
answer.
Its not that I don’t believe but rather I don’t fully understand, now if not understanding means not believing then I don’t believe as you say but if not understanding means God is still showing me then where is your patience for us who are less fortunate than you?
If your insinuating that unless I understand everything that Ray understood I’m not a believer in Christ then so be it but this I do know Dave, it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Christ, it is God who does the calling and saving, it is God who gives us our faith and faith is not of ourselves but of God.
So the real question is not if God calls us but when God calls us, you talked about a beginning a middle and end Ray talked about this age or the next age, I say I don’t believe as Christendom does, you say I don’t believe as you do, so I guess I’m in the middle but what I’m trying to understand is the middle of what ? Belief or unbelief the milk of the word or the meat of the word, life and death.
There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I’m at but where I’m going but I won’t get there until God says so.
God bless.
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The Apostle John postulated "without God". Why can't I? Much of the world's people have questioned if there is a God, and if so, what kind of God. Don't wrestle away from the question because it makes you uncomfortable.
Scripture tells us that there is God. And it tells us what kind of God and what He does and has done. I'm saying unequivocally that by your answer, you don't believe in 'that' God.
You said, "There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I’m at but where I’m going but I won’t get there until God says so."
That's what I'm trying to do for you...be one who God may use to help you 'get there'. I don't 'understand' all things either. But I do 'believe' the most basic of truths concerning God and me. The way you've answered tells me you do not. You SAY you do (and much of what you say is truth), but you don't.
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The Apostle John postulated "without God". Why can't I? Much of the world's people have questioned if there is a God, and if so, what kind of God. Don't wrestle away from the question because it makes you uncomfortable.
Scripture tells us that there is God. And it tells us what kind of God and what He does and has done. I'm saying unequivocally that by your answer, you don't believe in 'that' God.
You said, "There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I’m at but where I’m going but I won’t get there until God says so."
That's what I'm trying to do for you...be one who God may use to help you 'get there'. I don't 'understand' all things either. But I do 'believe' the most basic of truths concerning God and me. The way you've answered tells me you do not. You SAY you do (and much of what you say is truth), but you don't.
Hi Dave,
You say the apostle John postulated, which means,
( postulate >verb 1 suggest or assume the existence, fact, or truth of (something) as a basis for reasoning or belief. 2 nominate or elect to an ecclesiastical office subject to the sanction of a higher authority. >noun a thing postulated.
-DERIVATIVES postulation >noun.
-ORIGIN Latin postulare 'ask'.)
“without God “ why can’t I ? Referring to yourself, I never said you could not Dave, I just think it leads back to Christendom, don’t wish to get involved in hypothetical’s and neither did Ray.
But to entertain your question I would need more information, if God does not exist, does the universe still operate with the law of cause and effect ? Does the law of cause and effect go out the window with God too or do they stay in effect ? If they stay in effect how can that be without God who created the law of cause and effect ?
If the law of cause and effect do not exist how would that affect us ? Would we be free of causality where there is no cause ? Where there are no causes can there be effects ? Or would we now become the cause who effects all things ?
Would the law of gravity still be in effect without the law of cause and effect ? Is it possible to exist without the law of gravity ?
I just don’t see how you or John can take God out of the equation without coming back to where you started before you took God out of the equation, its just circles
Its not I’m uncomfortable with the question, its just not a possibility, if God does not exist then we cannot exist either, there is no life no universe outside of God.
You say what if this I say what if that, it just goes in circles. If you say I don’t believe in God then to you I don’t believe in God.
God bless, from the God you say I don’t believe in. :)
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You said, "Its not I’m uncomfortable with the question, its just not a possibility, if God does not exist then we cannot exist either, there is no life no universe outside of God."
Bingo.
So why do you answer the question theologically? Shouldn't the very fact that "without Him there is nothing..." be the basis of your understanding of the Sovereignty of God and (as a corollary) the myth of 'free'-will? Why draw so many square circles? Can't you see that all your 'reasoning' is in itself hypothetical?
In truth, I don't actually KNOW what you believe. I just know how you answered the question--and it's a perfectly FINE question to ask. Your ANSWER assumed something existed if God did not. In truth, neither good, nor evil, nor choice, nor YOU to make the choice--not even Girl Scout cookies--exist if He does not. What could possibly be more 'basic' than that?
AT THE VERY LEAST, make your answer to the questions most common in the world MAKE SENSE. Even better, THINK ON THESE THINGS. It is one thing to think about nothing, and something altogether different to think about "nothing". How can you "understand God" if you don't at some point think about NO GOD? I'm not talking about exploring atheism...that's just another -ism. I'm talking about BELIEVERS reading all the words of John 1 and doing what believers do--believe.
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Eight years ago, I was agnostic (at best) leaning strongly toward the 'belief' that God did not exist. While I was (and well before that too) I didn't like the 'god' I thought did/might exist. I thought he was a finger-waggling, vain, capricious, old guy who couldn't even make up his mind if he 'loved' us or 'hated' us, yet he expected me to love him...and not just 'love him', but love him with all my heart and soul and mind. I told him to either 'fix' me or leave me the hell alone.
Before all that, I was a faithful, church-going christian. Though I struggled with sin, I did what I thought I was supposed to do...and I 'knew' a few 'truths' even then.
In both of those situations, though, I had the same 'mind'. It was a 'mind' that didn't think it mattered too much if there was a God close-by. You could never have convinced me as a christian that this was my mind, but what is worse than 'thinking' such a thought is living like that. And trust me, LIVING AS IF GOD DIDN'T MATTER characterizes most of my life...in church and after. In church, I would never had said such a thing. After, I was at leas honest.
Rick said asking the question leads back to babylon. That's not my experience at all.
I asked a similar question on facebook a few months ago: Where would you be without God? I got a few replies...some from traditional christians, and some from people I might have wished had 'thought' more about it. Nobody said, "Dave, I'd be nowhere at all."
Hey, I forgive them all...firstly, it's 'facebook'. Who goes there for 'deep thinking'? Secondly, because I know what they meant. Without God's help, or His grace, or His 'looking out after me', I'd be in a pickle. All true enough. Even the one who said she'd be burning in hell...I know she's blind as well as thinking the former things--God's help, grace, looking out for me.
But I've had the 'mind' that says 'whether or not God exists, I keep on going.' It wasn't until I BELIEVED John 1 (a faith given freely to me, even as it had been almost completely wiped out) that I even began to 'understand' what I was 'believing' from B-T, and well before I even knew there was a forum. That's the 'happy' facts.
The sad fact is that even today I still BEHAVE as if God's very existence didn't matter. I have to slow down, stop, and THINK to keep from behaving like just another beast of the field. Also, no matter what I am doing, He 'graces' me to 'think on these things'. just from the things, events, people He brings into my life That's the way i KNOW that He isn't finished with me yet.
John 'thought about' "without Him..." If he hadn't, he wouldn't have been able to write those words...no more-so than you can write "purple elephant" without thinking of a purple elephant. Thankfully, he knew the truth about "without Him..." and didn't finish his sentence without sharing it with us who believe, and for those to whom God is giving faith. We might can 'scan over' "purple elephant" without it affecting us, just as we can scan over "without Him nothing" without it affecting us. I know it can be done, because I've not only done it, but I've lived life because I did it.
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Hi Dave,
Eight years ago I was still believing as Christendom does, eight years ago I believe in hell and I also knew I had to many issues to be heaven bound so I lived in fear of death.
I respect you for telling me the truth of your life, not all but many things you said I can relate to Dave!
The more I learn of God the more I realize I don’t know of God, like scripture says, who can search the depths of God ?
Like you I too am learning but we both know its God who calls us and its God who gives us the increase in knowledge.
You recited back to me my words to you ( Rick said asking the question leads back to Babylon. That's not my experience at all.) I read where Ray said John look back, I’m looking forward now but God will cause me to look back in His appointed time for me to look back.
There are so many things I don’t know nor understand about God, I only know I reject the lies I was once taught by Christendom.
Because of the foolishness of Rays teachings I only know I will never think of God in the same way I used to. ( that’s a good thing ) I know you can relate to this I say.
Eight years ago you were agnostic today you’re a moderator on this forum of God’s truth, freaky isn’t it. All this stuff Ray taught freaks me out in a good way, who could believe how different God is from the god of Christendom we were all taught ?
Seriously, why am I here? Why is anyone of us here ? More important, how have any of us come to believe what Ray said as truth ? You know as well as I do, its not by chance where here, its by Gods appointed time that we are here and believing what Ray taught is a miracle in itself.
When one believes a lie to be truth their whole life how is it possible to recognize the truth when it come ones way let alone believe it ?
I don’t know if my belief in God is in accordance with His truths or if I’m self deceived, I only know God is a Good God and that regardless of what I do, think or say He has my best interest at heart.
I can admire and love the God Ray has presented in the appointed time God says I will and yes I come to understand my will is subjected to His will 24/7/365 days a year for all my life in this age and every other age to come and yes I’m not perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect, not yet anyways.
God bless you Dave. :)
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It's funny - I was walking back from lunch and considering the sin in my life - past and present. And the first thing I see is this thread.
Is our "sin" really meant for our spiritual growth? At first I thought "yes", but I couldn't really answer why I thought that. It then occurred to me that, yes, trials and tribulations can cause us to sin, but it's the trials the allow us to grow. The sin shouldn't be there - it is, of course, due to our nature, but the goal is to not sin.
The reason I was thinking about this is because the sin in my past has harmed me. Some things more than others, but nonetheless there has been lasting damage. It took something away from me.
God forgives me, but I have difficulty not being affected emotionally by the sins I've committed, because I live with the damage every day. Some things you can forget and others will always be there.
So, even though God forgives me, some effects of sin, can't simply be forgotten. Some things I will live with until Christ changes me and that has great impact on me.
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Hey, Jeff.
We were never meant to be forever naked and ignorant in the garden. God has a much higher plan and purpose for His creation. Sin plays a part in that. Whether is 'should' or 'shouldn't' be there is really a non-issue for me. It simply IS. That's the way God planned it. That's the way God wants it to be in every life.
But there is a time and a season for every purpose under heaven. A time to sin, and a time to refrain from sinning.
Yes...sin harms. Boy oh boy, do some sins harm far worse than others. In fact, some sins harm us so much they pour out of us and harm others. But I'm not sure we're supposed to forget. That's God's job. I think we're supposed to 'look back' and see the wisdom of God in dragging us through all this $#%@. Maybe while we're still being dragged is when we have to 'look back' to Him and what He did. Not least (by a long-shot) that He did was die for us.
I can also understand the difficulty with emotion. I feel it more and more, but there's a limit. I have to believe this "limit" is so that I walk by faith, not by sight. I don't know what else to think, because I am not ever, ever again going to "fake it", God willing.
I love the 'hope' you ended with.
Hang in there, Jeff.
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Hi Dave,
Yes, very true - the sin is there and we're meant to sin:
Ro 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"
I had this thought in my head that I should let go of the past, and I realized that some of it can't be shed - which probably has it's own purpose.
I think my initial thought came to remind me of the fact that we sin, because we're meant to sin, but we strive to overcome. And that doesn't necessarily mean we can or should let go:
“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.” (Gal 5:16)
A constant with me is to attempt to go around something rather than through it...