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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mari_et_pere on June 26, 2007, 02:33:25 PM
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I was going to insert this into Arcturus' opinion thread, but then realized it doesn't really fit there. Here goes:
I'll use this thread to insert my experience from Sunday. It fits in a way.
My wife had really really wanted me to go to church with her Sunday. Well I had basically said 'maybe' but she expected me to go. When I didn't she was pretty upset.
Well I joined her, my son, my mo-n-law, sis-n-law and bro-n-law for lunch. They began talking about the lack of emotion in their church lately. The praise and worship team apparently has been failing in getting the congregation up and moving, the pastor is a little dull, blah blah blah. My wife mentioned those were some reasons I won't go. We discussed it and we all came to the realization that worship is up to US, not the "praise team" or anything else. A really good discussion in my book.
The rest of the day was a bit tense because my wife felt hurt by me skipping out on church, and at the end of the day I tried to tell her why I didn't go. Well let's just say the evening didn't go as well as either one of us had planned.
I said I've been crossed and torn about church for a very long time. She's known this for a long time. Well it led to us talking about differences I have with the church, and of course she became defensive because she's held on to the common carnal beliefs of the church her whole life so far. But during this "conversation" I realized a few things:
The people in Bablyon don't want to know, think about, or discuss anything that we discuss and believe here.
The people in Babylon who are willing to, are already in the process of realizing something's wrong with the way they believe and are being taught.
Since I was called out ages ago, I'm pretty solid in what I believe. I learned a lot of this long ago, Bible Truths just reinforced it and gave me a home and a vehicle for outlet.
Since I'm solid in the truth, why can't I go back to Bablyon? They won't change my mind, and I'd love to see my kids be brought up around other loving, kind hearted people. They won't learn the whole truth though, and in fact they'll swallow some lies. BUT I don't think they'll learn the truth here at home. My wife and mother in law both are fully entrenched in Babylon and won't even listen to anything I say about it.
So basically I'm thinking about going to church each Sunday so at least my kids will see that I'm involved, so that hopefully through their childhood and teen years they won't turn their backs on God. Like I said, I realize they'll swallow a mouthful of lies, but they'll also learn to trust in God and have a foundation to stand on. Hopefully one day they'll grow to the point to where I can tell them what I believe.
I think I'm justified in doing this. I'm feeling led to do this. I see no other way from where I stand at this point in time. And maybe I can reach a few people like Snacks does in his church.
You all have any thoughts on this?
Matt
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Matt, you have always been courteous to me when others were not. I respect you highly for thinking of your wife and kids the way you do. God gave your kids you as their Dad and God knows and I believe you will make the best decisions for their lives. You are strong, man, and I don't think any thing will sway you. Your kids will see you in their lives , concerned for their spiritual well-being and trust in your teaching of them. My hats off to you in speaking in this forum about your considerations. I hope you don't get a rough side for speaking freely. I admire your strength and courage. Good wishes to you as you make your decisions.
Seminole
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Dear sweet Matt,
It is a beautiful thing to put yourself aside and want to do what's right for your wife and kids. I think we are all confronted at times with just simply not knowing exactly what that right thing is. And you will likely get all sorts of opinions one way or another in this thread.
You say:
I think I'm justified in doing this. I'm feeling led to do this. I see no other way from where I stand at this point in time.
I have no doubt that you have given this much thought and prayer. It looks like this is what God is putting on your heart to do at this point in your life. And at any rate, you can give it a go, and if God shuts the door on it, then you'll know for sure. If your spirit simply cannot tolerate being there, then you will know for sure.
It is my opinion that whether or not our children are put through a church system or not, they will still go into and then out of Babylon in some capacity if they are to be one of the chosen. And this will be all God's doing. He will work it out. You cannot thwart any plan He has for your children.
I do not attend church, and my husband has never been a church goer, having attended only because of me. So I've often wondered, where does that leave my two little ones? I also struggled with whether or not I should bring them to church, or at least put them through a Christian school.
But when I look at my own life, I was not raised with God AT ALL. I grew up with a single mom and the two of us never discussed God. As I got older I searched out my own stuff....from occult...to new age....to pyshic phenomena...etc etc etc...you name it. I even took Religious studies in University and learned all about Greek mythology, Judaism, Buddhism etc etc etc....I mean, it seemed never ending...EVERYTHING BUT Christianity!!!!!
I did not become a Christian until I was 32 and even then it took 8 more years to get to know His real truth.....Do you see what I am getting at? If God can take you, me and Seminole out of lives that seemingly were completely absent of any knowledge of the truth of the real God to where we are now, he will continue to do miraculous things with anyone He chooses, and whether they grow up in a Church or do not, will not change what He has planned for them ultimately.
So I'm kind of inclined to tell you, not to fret about it so much, but in all things do them joyfully and to the glory of God.
1 Corinthians 10:29-32 MSG
29 But, except for these special cases, I'm not going to walk around on eggshells worrying about what small-minded people might say; I'm going to stride free and easy, knowing what our large-minded Master has already said.
30 If I eat what is served to me, grateful to God for what is on the table, how can I worry about what someone will say? I thanked God for it and he blessed it!
31 So eat your meals heartily, not worrying about what others say about you--you're eating to God's glory, after all, not to please them. As a matter of fact, do everything that way, heartily and freely to God's glory.
May God give you peace and reveal to you His will for your life,
Much luv to ya :),
Diana
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Nole, thanks for your kind words man. I have two reasons why I'm courteous to you. One is because I always try to be courteous to everyone. My christian school taught me how to treat others by treating me the opposite of how they wanted to be treated.
And two, I've been in the postion you are right now, with the city full of gangs and violence and drugs. I was in the thick of it back in 92 and 93. I and my best friend had a friend who moved to California after our 2nd grade year. In 11th grade he came back, and we rekindled our friendship. Well turns out he had gotten into drugs and started up a KKK chapter. Other than the KKK, we had a lot in common. Well when the gangs found out I was his buddy, I became involved wether by choice or not. Everything for me peaked one Saturday night when we were cruising around, and got chased down by a car full of blacks who were screaming and shouting at us. They definitely didn't want to hang out with us! We raced through city streets at 65+ miles per hour, and out into the country side doing 90+. This is going to show you how much of a 180 I've done in my life:
We (the 5 of us in the car) each pulled out a weapon. Ball bats, tire irons, pipes, whatever was in the back of the Escort wagon we were in. We all pulled nylons over our faces and we had a spot in the country where we were basically going to beat these dudes down, maybe worse. WHAT WAS WRONG WITH US? WHAT WAS WRONG WITH ME? :o Thank God the dudes chasing us gave up! I think they realized that the white dudes in that car were totally crazy beyond what they were and they just stopped, turned around and were gone.
A couple weeks later me and my best friend were hanging out downtown. We watched as two dudes got the beat down by a gang of blacks and whites. We hot footed it away (we couldn't help those two; a couple dozen gang members against 4 white dudes?) Well we thought we were okay. We found a pay phone in front of the county courthouse and called our friend I just told you about. We told him what happened, and figured he'd get a posse together and help us take care of the gang. But no, he was busy. WHAT? As soon as we got off the phone, the gang was right there behind us. They came running toward us and yelling. We heard "GET HIM, T! GET EM!" We ran. My buddy barely got clocked but was running fast enough that he was able to keep running. He ran straight into busy traffic and got away. As I was running, a dude jumped at me from behind and grabbed at my long hair. I was able to turn and clock him once and continued running. I had a couple dozen dudes chasing me. I also ran straight out into busy traffic, dodging and weaving until I knew I was "safe." Thank God those dudes didn't catch us! It's hard telling what would've happened. :o
Where were our "buddies" that night? Why they were getting high. We would've usually been high right with them, but for some reason we weren't that night.
But that's just a couple examples of why I'm a humble pacifist now. That happened 14 long years ago, and I've done a 100% 180 turn from what I was. That's why I treat everyone with respect. I also learned I run faster than black dudes! ;D ;D
I'm not sure why I told you all that for the whole forum to see, but I empathize with your opinions. (I realize you're not involved with gangs, it's just that environment can affect our everyday lives and our overall outlook.) But I don't think everyone can know where everyone else is coming from all of the time. But your heart is in the right place and you've got my respect. Thank you for seeing strength in me. You may be right about me getting a rough side for speaking freely, but that's their choice, not mine. I'm strong enough to take it. 8)
Matt
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Diana, thanks for your response. I hear where you're coming from. I've thought, "Well, it's all in God's hands anyway. They'll become what God has willed for them to become." Then I thought, "SO WILL I." <GULP!> So will I. So will you. So will all of us. Interesting to say the least.
Thank you for seeing the best interest that I have inside for my family. It would be so nice if I could sit my family down with Jesus in my living room and ask, "What do you want us to do?" ;D
Then again, would we always do what He said He wanted? Probably not. :(
Thanks again for your kind words. I expected a pretty volatile discussion from this, but it's going pretty peacably so far! ;D
Matt
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Wow Matt,
That was SOME story about your life. You already know that most in Babylon hold on to their favorite idols of the heart. Sadly, you also know that unless Babylonians are TOLD what to think, they WON'T think at all. In fact, speaking of mrsnacks, he's recently posted that he's feeling that he should leave the church he's attending, feeling as though God is calling him out. As for your kids, I think you're worrying about them digesting what I call "a pound of lies" , that consists of 1 oz truth plus 15oz of heresy. Meaning we can get so desperate for that 1 oz of truth, we'll swallow stuff that isn't good for us.
All I can do is encourage you to go where the Spirit leads.
God be with you
Ches
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Ches, yeah I remember Snack's thread you refer to. I've thought of the 15 oz of lies vs the 1 oz of truth. But you see, they're going to be there eating that pound of lies wether I'm there or not.
I don't know...
Matt
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Matt, I feal your pain. :'(
I think we're living parrallel lives! ;D
In fact after reading your last thread concerning this subject I had considered pm'ing you about what you are now posting.
My up most concern is for my girls. I don't want them confused by the carnal churchs doctrines but at the same time they do enjoy Sunday school (thats all I'll allow); not to mention the fact that their mother insist on their attendence. The issue with my wife is all together another battle.
But as for the girls I have reluctantly concented on the Sunday school matter. And this is how I justify it: (I'm sure there are plenty of readers who will be ready, willing and able to admonish me for this so......bring it on) I don't see Babylon just in the world church; its at the mall, at school, on tv and radio, etc, etc, etc; and lets face it you just can't shelter them but so much. I really don't consider any one of these things any more "evil" than another one. In fact I believe eliminating one (say the church for example) would just serve to strengthen the others.
So they go to Sunday school and do arts and crafts and play with friends and if some doctrine comes home with them its Ok. How can I say that you ask? Because I'm at home; and just like when they come home from school or the mall or sleep overs I'm there waiting with the truth ready to refute any secular or church doctrine that might manifest itself.
God has charged me with the responsibility of those 2 girls and through Him they will be raised up in the truth. This is not a job for the faint of heart or a man weak in his convictions. Matt, I can tell that you walk strong in the Lord. I know He will move you to the right conclusion; and that could very well be different from mine. Just remember my Brother, God has chosen you as a guardian to some very special people. But the church is not all you have to guard against. We cannot afford to underestimate the devil; he has many tools and uses them all with equal fervosity.
Jackson
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This is not to be taken as advice or a suggestion to not go back to church. It is just something that comes to mind as I read this thread.
In the book of Numbers 14th chapter, there is somewhat of a climax to the wilderness experience. The majority of Israelites wanted to return to Egypt. God did not say "Ok I tell you what. Let your children go back to Egypt to learn the ways of Egypt." What he did was since they wanted to return to Egypt so bad that they wished they had died. He gave them their wish to die and made them wander around for 40 years in the wilderness so that they could all die off. In the mean time, their children learned the ways of God and were able to go into the promise land with Joshua and Caleb.
Again not advice just pondering some scripture.
CIY
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Wow, what a story Matt. Gave me chills. Also shows the Glory of the Father when He redeems someone!!!!
My daughter is still in church and I have thought from time to time (ok, alot) about the grandchildren being in church. My son gave me a direct order not to ever speak to his kids about "this crap".(He doesn't even have kids!) So I will just trust the Lord and hopefully over the years read the scriptures to them. As Diana pointed out, God has ways to find us where ever we are.
You said on another thread that your stomach turned when you were in church Mothers Day. Can you take that week after week?
As far as my advice goes-I only have grandmotherly advice to you.
Your family is very important to you. It would show your wife how much you love her & the kids. You could have fellowship w/ the in-laws. Maybe, just maybe, a word fitly spoken here and there will open doors to your wife willing to listen. Who knows? It may only just be for a season.
My sheep hear my Voice. You can hear Him. I will support you no matter. You have proven to me, that you are a man of God-a mighty man of Valor ;)
Just keep us posted!!!!
Jackson, you are right about Sunday School. Games, arts & crafts, food, music, and Bible stories. Very little doctrine. I liked your point about Babylon being everywhere.
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Matt, I have no advice but I wanted to thank you for posting this topic and everyone for the responses.
I have a two year-old son and I've been trying to figure out what to do about him and Sunday school. He hasn't started it yet but prior to a couple of months ago, it was my intention that he go to Sunday school. Now, I'm not really sure what to do. My mom and I had a conversation about it this past weekend. She's going through her own church issues but she made it very clear that she feels my son needs to be in Sunday school. I told her it's been on my mind a lot lately but since she and I have very different beliefs, I haven't shared with her my sudden reluctance to send my boy to church.
Anyway, this thread has given me a lot of food for thought.
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Well I did tell my wife that I don't feel like going anymore. The few that have been reached with the truths are pulling out of the church. My wife was sad to hear that I won't go. She thinks that there may be just a chance others will be open. So I will think and pray on it. My wife wants me to go with her. So I may bite the bullet and attend because of her. She teaches the kids and she desires the worship. Plus they need help musically so we will see.
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2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
As others here say, not advice, but just some scripture to think about.
In Christ,
Roy
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Hey Roy, thanks for the scripture! They fit the situation perfectly.
The first three verses (in 2Cor., Rev. and Luke) are calling for a seperation. If we cannot distinguish ourselves from the world then we are doomed to live and die in it.
But as you quoted from John this seperation must be a spiritual one. To physically diassosiate with all of Babylon is impossible as long as we are living here. Besides, how would we ever know what the truth was if we were never told a lie. This Babylon, this church, this world is serving a purpose (a good purpose) for those that have "eyes to see and ears to hear". As long as we are in God and He in us we have nothing to fear and everything to gain.
In His Grace,
Jackson
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Hi Roy,
Yes, those are of course important scriptures to consider. But if I may offer my perspective on how I understand them, or how I apply them to my life (and this is of course, only my understanding at present ;))
As you so rightly point out:
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Therefore, I can be physically in a room full of unbelievers and yet be spiritually NOT fellowshipping with them, as I hold fast to what I believe and see as the truth, in my spirit.
In my heart and in my spirit I can come out of Babylon and not partake of her sins, though I may physically be surrounded by Babylon. (By the way, I agree with others who have said that Babylon is not just present in the church....and I can watch TBN ministers [which I do on a rare occasion for a laugh] with no harm to my spirit, if anything it's a constant confirmation in me that these ministers are "off"....I think as you come out of Babylon, God gives you the gift of discernment where you begin to see the lies like a red light flashing...but this "coming out of Babylon" still is occuring even after you "physically" come out of the church....IMHO)
And so, if I am amongst "unbelievers" and they see that I take a different stand by the questions they ask of me, they will either kick me out of their presence, or they will ask more questions...as the Lord wills.
There are "unbelievers" everywhere!!!! I know of 9 people (that I recently had the joy of meeting for the first time after two years) in my own HUGE city that believe the way I do. We are few and far between....a scattered bunch.)
Now, if I were to attend church for the sake of my family (which admittedly I'm not in the position of having to do), yet all the while they become aware of where I stand through every opportunity that comes up to add comments and answer questions, am I not just "becoming as one of them so that I might save one of them"?
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
Peace,
Diana
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I wanted very much to raise my girls in church, because I was homeschooling, and so I did.
They did learn the basic Bible stories, but I was reading them Bible stories at home too. I also taught Suday school classes, so I was even with them there some times.
They did have some good friends there too.
I was ignorant to the truth at that time, but it is where God kept me for 25 years :-\
And that was when I was very seriously about it, during my adult life.
I am so thankful to be out, and can not imagine a situation where I would have to return to it, even for a visit. None of my girls attended now, and I did not try to sway them one way are the other. I always knew they were in church, because I was, that's was one of the reason why I was so committed.
This is my experience, I do not regret it, because I think God taught me a great deal while I was there.
But now I would say it is not an appropriate place for children to learn about God. Anyone here could do a much better job themselves.
Like I said this is my experience and personal opinion.
I realize some of your situations are difficult and you are doing the best you can. Just pray for God's guidance, and do as your heart guides you :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Great post Diana, we are of the same mind on this, however you expresed yourself much better than I did. ;D
Kat, I agree with you 100%. Everything you said was right on. I do not agree that church is an appropriate place for children to learn about God either. But wouldn't you agree that even if they don't go to church they are still being bombarded with mans idea of God or atleast mans idea of a god? They can't escape the ideology no matter where they are. Thats why we're here; right?
Jackson
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Wow...thanks for all the well thought and un-attacking responses! ;D
I hear many of you say 'stay away from Babylon' but Jackson is 100% dead on the money when he says that we can't. WE CAN'T. Unless any of you guys stay out of town, grow ALL your own food and make your own clothes and work from home then your kids see way more of Babylon than you think. You drive to the store? What do you pass on the way there? What have they seen on TV? What about at school? Radio? CDs they listen to? Books and magazines they read? What do they see at the stores and malls?
I moved away from the city 7 years ago. We live in the country on a state route. Of course we commute to nearby towns every day, but when I visit a big city, woah. :o I grew up in a big city, now I'm not so used to it. We go to a mall, and my gosh kids are bombarded with the wordly things in life there. It's kind of sobering. I think 'how did I grow up to be okay when I was so influenced by stuff?' You won't like the answer, but going to church and a christian school coerced me into leaning toward God a little more than toward the world.
I want my kids to at least lean the way I did. I made many mistakes, went through my falling away period and all that, (I was pretty insane for a couple years, lucky to not be in prison right now) but I came back home to God. I hope they will too, if they ever do fall away. Sunday school is basically fellowship time for kids. They'll learn Jesus Loves Me and John 3:16, paint a picture for me and their mom, make a craft that falls apart on Monday, get a little bag of candy and maybe get a face painting every so often. When they're into their teen years I'll give them more to digest. My oldest is 9 so I have a few years. [GULP!!!] :o
My issue with these little kids is this: They're too young to swallow the spiritual knowledge we have. They have plenty of room for milk, but the meat is too much for young ones. Once they hit the fabled "age of accountability" then maybe they can take some meat. And I'd love to see the look on the pastor's face when they ask him questions like "Daddy says you're wrong and here's the scriptures to prove it." ;D ;D
Anyways, thank you all for the responses! I'd love to hear any more thoughts if you have them.
Matt
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As Jackson says, Babylon is all around us. Ok, thats true. The influence of the Harlot church is everywhere and especially in America.
The air all around us is about 80% Nitrogen. It's everywhere. But if I throw my children in a room that is 98% nitrogen they will suffocate. See what I am saying? Just because it is all around does not mean we should inhale larger amounts. If a little is not good for you, then a lot is just that much worst.
Diana, When the word says worship in TRUTH, I take it to mean that if we do not worship in the truth then the worship is not accepted. The church throws their arms in the air and hold hands and cry all because it makes THEM feel good. This Kingdom is not about what feels good to you or to others. It's about what IS righteous and acceptable unto the Lord. It is about Obedience. You can't be something inwardly and something different outwardly. There is a word for that.
Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
We must speak and show what we believe in our hearts. Actions speak louder than words. And let's be real here; if we go to sunday church EVERY sunday then we are fellowshipping with that church. Consider that being yoked!
Matt, As the man I am the head of my household, so... "...as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
the word speaks clearly on this issue. I am not going to say how to run your household, but scriptures sure do have a lot to say about it. The word of God is not a suggestion on how to live righteously; they are commands.
In Christ,
Roy
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2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
As others here say, not advice, but just some scripture to think about.
In Christ,
Roy
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I have pondered on those scriptures and I know that His Words are Spirit. I would think God is talking to us on a deep level here. Of course we can take these scriptures and justify us having nothing to do with those in Babylon. Is getting together for dinner or being in a bible study or worship forbidden for one can be believe that is having fellowship . I don't think our Lord is talking to us in that way. Just my thoughts here. I believe He is saying that deep in the spirit fellowship is not possible and I agree. I can be almost totally free and open when talking to my wife or my local friend Greg about things of the Spirit. We talk about the myth of free will , hell, tithing, the origin of Satan , UR, or any of these things . I don't have to tip toe or fear saying what is on my heart. We are one. But I can't do this with the pastor and his wife, or virtually every member in the church I attend. Only a few. I must hold my tongue until the Lord has me speak. His timing and not mine. I don't want to be kicked out and hated before my time.
So I will say that the scriptures I see are for us and reveal me to me. It is more about me than others.
I must make sure my heart is out of Babylon (a process ) and I am not walking in darkness before I point my spiritual finger. Because I have found I am blind in areas and don't see still. Yes I do see a lot thanks to God's grace but we all have our blind spots. I recall being on the freeway the other day. I was turning into the next lane when I realized ( by the horn sound) that I was about to broadside a car beside me. Yes I looked in my rear view mirror and even checked looking out my window but I still didn't see the car. I would have never thought a car was right there. Thank God I didn't get into a wreck. Sometimes we think we see but we don't. We are all in process. I may be further along than John Doe but we all have yet to arrive. A third grader is no better than a 6th grader. And those of us who are in 6 th grade or higher need not look down on those not far along as we are. It is the sum of God's Word we have to look at.We are to be kind to others and love one another. Love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. And if I sit with those in darkness it is not because I am partaking in their ways, beliefs or sins anymore than Jesus did when He sat among those in darkness.
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Diana, When the word says worship in TRUTH, I take it to mean that if we do not worship in the truth then the worship is not accepted. The church throws their arms in the air and hold hands and cry all because it makes THEM feel good. This Kingdom is not about what feels good to you or to others. It's about what IS righteous and acceptable unto the Lord. It is about Obedience. You can't be something inwardly and something different outwardly. There is a word for that.
You're right about that. What's the common teaching about false idols? That we worship them by serving them, living with them in heart instead of God, right? That's the common teaching. Worship isn't only singing or dancing around the false idols, but just living for them.
Now then, it's silly to picture anyone dancing around a cd, or an actor, or a belief. We worship all that is put ahead of God in our heart or mind. So then how much sense does it make to dance around in church once a week in order to worship God? None! I'd say the proper way to worship God is to put Him first, ahead of the cds, the movies, the beliefs that make us feel good. In truth and spirit would be an inwardly action first, indeed.
The air all around us is about 80% Nitrogen. It's everywhere. But if I throw my children in a room that is 98% nitrogen they will suffocate. See what I am saying? Just because it is all around does not mean we should inhale larger amounts. If a little is not good for you, then a lot is just that much worst.
Now on this, I don't quite follow. I think you missed part of my point. My point was that the influence of the mainstream American culture is definitely way worse than what church is going to do to them. In church they'll find friendship, love from kind-hearted people with their legitimate best interest at heart. Some may be more decieved than others, but the deceptions don't create evil people. Outside of church what do our children experience? That was my point. There is far more to fear in our children's lives outside of church than inside of church. Of course this is dependant on the particular church also. But generally speaking what's better? An extremely worldly, decadent, evil, sexually-themed American culture, or good-hearted influence by kind people who love them?
Do the math as I did and see what you come up with.
Matt
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And if I sit with those in darkness it is not because I am partaking in their ways, beliefs or sins anymore than Jesus did when He sat among those in darkness.
Amen Snacks!
Matt
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MrSnacks Jesus sat with sinners! It is whole different concept. Those SINNERS might have been taking in His teachings whole heartedly. For a better comparison as yourself this: Did Jesus sit with the Pharisees? I believe they are more comparable to the church today than the "sinners" Jesus sat with.
Matt, My analogy was a response to Jackson to what he said below.
Quote by Jackson:
But wouldn't you agree that even if they don't go to church they are still being bombarded with mans idea of God or atleast mans idea of a god? They can't escape the ideology no matter where they are.
That is why I used my analogy of Nitrogen and Oxygen. And as for doing the math; it's as easy as 1+1. Better yet 0+0. Because if I had a choice I would choose neither. By the way, have you noticed how much of that "extremely worldly, decadent, evil, sexually-themed American culture" has infiltrated the church? Maybe it's because I am from NYC, but I can't tell the difference between church going folks and the world.
In Christ,
Roy
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How as a Forum can we help these young ones?
Come on we have so very smart brothers and sisters here. How can we help?
I'm watching my brothers walk right into a lions den.
I understand where you are coming from Matt and I'm not judging you at all brother I'm just praying we as a family can help some how.
On line playground? I don't know but its a start.
Calling all brothers and sisters.
Randy
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Diana, When the word says worship in TRUTH, I take it to mean that if we do not worship in the truth then the worship is not accepted. The church throws their arms in the air and hold hands and cry all because it makes THEM feel good. This Kingdom is not about what feels good to you or to others. It's about what IS righteous and acceptable unto the Lord. It is about Obedience. You can't be something inwardly and something different outwardly.
Hi Roy, fair enough. I think I do understand where you are coming from. I guess I am coming from a different sort of history. I only went to church for about 3 years out of my 10 year Christian walk, and not all at the same time. I was never a faithful attendee, nor did I involve myself with church activities outside listening to the sermon. I have maybe gone to a handful of bible studies. I have always been of the rebellious non-conformist type nature, and so when people raised hands, cried out, sang, danced around etc etc I have never felt compelled to do the same. I have never quite fit in, but thankfully I have never felt that I HAD to fit in. I was okay being the quirky quiet me that I was. So I agree with you, worship is not about what feels good, or really to take it further, it has nothing to do with anything physical. For instance, I can pray in my spirit quietly, I don't have to get down physically on my knees and say literal words out of my mouth. So if people are worshiping with the flesh all around me, what does that have to do with me? I'm not conforming to their ways just to please them.
Having said that, if somebody feels within that this is a problem for them, that is, feeling compelled to fit in and therefore go along with the crowd, than certainly it could be dangerous, and at the very least disheartening, to be in the crowd (whatever crowd that may be, church or otherwise). I wouldn't recommend it to someone if I thought they were fragile in that way. I don't see Matt as being that way, however, but only he knows that for sure.
So in all fairness, I completely respect your viewpoint, even though I may not agree with it in applying it to myself.
So maybe this has been dangerous ground to walk on, for me to give my perspective, when to be honest I don't really know for sure what is the right or wrong answer for Matt. I just know what I think I would do in similar situations. And that's just a reflection of where I am at. For me, I can't imagine a couple of hours amongst lies is any comparison to the countless hours I spend everyday seeking out truth in the Word. If Matt's wife and children are going to be going anyway, and Matt is there, it may give him opportunity to point out scripturally what lies are being taught in the sermon of the day. If he can find a way to do that, then I think it is worth it, and may be just the way God uses him to open his wife's eyes.
It looks like this thread has shown we all differ slightly, so poor Matt, it looks like you're on your own after all in having to figure it out.
My prayers are with you brother, that God show you HIS will in the matter. You're in a tough spot.
Peace to all,
Diana
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I am sure Matt just wanted our opinions and that's what he got. Our opinions are in no way authoritative, but Matt you are definitely not on your own. Seek the scriptures and ask God for guidance. Don't be troubled because now we know that God is in control of EVERYTHING. That can be a scary notion for it can be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, but it is also comforting for we know the end result. Diane and I may not see eye to eye, but I am sure that she will keep you in her prayers as will I.
Diane, I only went to church for two years in which I became a youth minister and was "prophesied" to become a great pastor by a well known Hispanic preacher. After 5 mins of just discussing (not preaching) another perspective of this so called rapture, I was shunned as a heretic and was said to be deceived and carrying a devil. Looking back, I know how harmful this environment can be. I would not recommend anyone to regularly attend church just as I wouldn't recommend anyone to walk into a snake pit. I consider them both dangerous. The church can be an emotionally draining place, I personally was not able to stand my last visit and left before the sermon was over. It just hurts to be there. This is the perspective I bring to this discussion on going back to church.
God be with you,
Roy
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Man Matt, your story sounds real familiar. There has always been trouble aroung here as far back as I know of and it has gotten worse. I did the drug thing and drinking. My goal in life was to move to Colorado, grow my own, brew the lightning and party all the time. Didn't work out that way though. You are right. What the kids get just in the world is more dangerous than anything I know of in churches. You got to do what you think right. Somebody mentioned people in church raising their hands and singing but how is any body to know that it is not genuine from the heart. Not everybody puts on a show just to be putting on a show. Not much different that I can see than people living in a well to do subdivision just to portray their success. You know keeping up with the Joneses. Maybe they don't like the subdivision but they go just to keep up appearances. It happens everywhere in most aspects of life not just church. Matt, you got a good heart and have come so far. You will do the right thing for your family.
Nole
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Hi Roy, thanks for sharing that! I do see more clearly where you are coming from.
I hope I am not coming across as argumentative with you, since I'm sure you and I agree wholeheartedly on many other things!! :) I think you are giving wise counsel, especially given your experience.
Also I probably should clarify about what I meant by Matt having to figure it out alone. What I meant, and what I should have said is Matt, you are likely not going to get an unanimous answer on this one (from the forum), and so yes indeed, it will likely be a decision made between you and God and where you sense he is leading you.
I am sure Matt just wanted our opinions and that's what he got. Our opinions are in no way authoritative, but Matt you are definitely not on your own. Seek the scriptures and ask God for guidance. Don't be troubled because now we know that God is in control of EVERYTHING.
I am definitely in full agreement with Roy on that one... !!;) :D
Peace to all,
Diana
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Hi Matt, I agree with Jackson primarily. It's all spiritual.
There are many many more Scriptures on "coming out of the world" than there are of "coming out of Babylon." Do we really think we can come out of the physical world? Such as, stop watching this, participating in that, rubbing shoulders with them?
Here are a just a few of many (more) such verses, with only the important words unfurled:
John 12: 25 ... he who is hating his life in this world... [CLNT]
Rom 12: 2 ... do not follow the customs of the present age, ... [Weymouth N.T.]
James 4: 4 ... a friend of the world is constituted an enemy of God. [CLNT]
John 7: 7 [Jesus speaking] "The world ... it's acts are wicked." [CLNT]
Gal 1: 4 ... that he might deliver us out of the present evil age ... [Young's Literal Translation]
John 15: 19 " ... I have chosen you out of the world ..."
John 17: 14 " ... they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."
Gal 4: 3 ... we, when were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
James 1: 27 ... be keeping oneself unspotted from the world.
1John 2: 15 Do not love the world, nor the things of the world.
John 17: 6 [Jesus speaking] " ... whom You have given Me out of the world ... [NKJV]
Phil 3: 18-19 ... enemies of the cross of Christ ... who mind earthly things.
2Pet 2: 20 ... they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord...
John 14: 17 the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive...
So dear brother, I list these to show you, can someone come all the way out of dreaded Babylon then come all the way out of the world as is commanded? We all answer this in our own way with our connection with God's spirit on a daily basis. But I assure you as a friend, there is no one in a physical corner all by his or herself, sitting there nearly perfect. I truly believe we all fulfill God's will at each moment.
Thanks to great thoughts from Diana! :>
With joy, Janice
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Did Jesus sit with the Pharisees? I believe they are more comparable to the church today than the "sinners" Jesus sat with.
Wow hang on. I'm not trying to argue here, not at all. I'm actually famous among those who know me for avoiding confrontation. But to take church members, all of them, all how many? Millions? And say they are more like Pharisees than sinners Jesus sat with is...well judgemental at best. Do you not have friends who attend church? Do you think of them as Pharisees? Do ya talk down to them with scathing sarcasm as Jesus did to the Pharisees for their hypocritical speech and actions? Or are they good hearted Joe's and Jane's who happen to be in the decieved majority of Christendom according to God's will, and will remain that way until God calls them to more truth, IF He does, again according to His will?
Matt
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On line playground?
Randy LOL! ;D ;D
If it were only that easy I'd have it made. :)
Matt
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I think most of you sense the spirit I'm coming from here. Not a spirit of conformity, but a spirit of LOVE. Not judgement (who am I to judge when I've done dastardly things far beyond what most dream of) but acceptance. Not acceptance of false doctrine, but an acceptance of people who have so far been led BY GOD to believe such false doctrine.
Sunday me and my wife and my little boy went to a cook out. It was at a church goers house. We forgot the crucifixes and silver bullets at home, but alas all was well. there were 10 or 12 couples there with their kids. We had some good conversation, good food, good fun with the kids, some laughs, and generally had a really good time. Although I haven't gotten into the deep subjects of TRUTH with most of these people, I can pretty much guarantee they don't believe like I do. But one thing was evident and always has been since I met them all: all of us are kind-hearted people on a journey, seeking to grow in the spiritual and learn God's truths. I say they're not as in tune as I, they may say the same about me. They accepted me. Would you accept them?
Just a thought, like a WWJD type thought.
Matt
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You bet I would accept them. How can you do otherwise?
Nole
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Hmmm.... seems I am not coming accross very well on this subject. Thanks for hearing me out though, I speak from experience. My points had NOTHING to do with acceptance. Church/Mass/sunday school/etc are NOT social events such as a BBQ or a get together or a movie night. It is a time for learning and absorbing the teachings and to share these teachings with each other and to worship the god that created those teachings. Acceptance was not the subject of this thread.
Matt, most of the people who send hate email to Ray are those "good hearted" christians you speak about.
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things..."
Those "good hearted" christians are the same the teach these heretical "evil hearted" doctrines. They are decieved, I agree, but these doctrines are fruits of the evil in ones heart.
Last time I went to church, the pastor made a joke about how the Catholics are going to be surprised when they end up in hell! Everyone laughed and thanked God for the truth. Please don't tell me these people are not like the pharisees!! The pharisees weren't blatantly evil, they were people just like the church goers you speak about, people that you would accept.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
But again this is not about acceptance. As I said, ultimately God knows what you should do and pray for an answer. As for me, I have no desire to return and not my wife nor my child will be a cause for that.
God be with you,
Roy
p.s. You should read more or Ray's emails responding to these "good hearted" people.
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hmmmm Roy....I think I might be starting to see it your way....did I say that outloud? ;D
Peace,
Diana
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Very interesting and detailed comments from one and all.
I suppose most of us have had similar experiences and concerns.
One advantage that we on the forum have is the SURE knowledge that God has a place for our spouses and our children and even our friends who don't attend any church. So I ask, when we consider whether we should go along with the family in order to keep peace or to protect them from error, are we acting out of fear or something close to fear?
We really don't need to have any concern in this area. "Take no concern for the morrow" We can try what seems good to us today and reserve the right to change when we see that it isn't working as expected. Wouldn't we do the same for anyone else?
After all, the worst that can happen is that our loved ones will be judged and purified by a loving Father and Son when the time is best for them. And if we let God set the time table, neither we nor they will suffer from frustration, arguments and a feeling of helplessness in the home.
We should love others equal to ourselves and even though blood draws us closer than a valued friendship, we do need to realize that God has things under control.
As one person has alread said, you children are going to be exposed to all type of error at school and in the street, just make sure that what they see and hear at home is truth as much as it is in your power to provide. Even little children are a times very perceptive. Even little children in their personal conversations with their peers, eventually realize the difference between truth and myth. Our goal as parents should be to have them discover, as they become older, that Dad and Mom always told them the best truth that God gave them to know and that Dad and Mom were able to accept correction with humility and dignity. As much as you try, you cannot be perfect in everything and the only solution therefore is to repent (change, correct your path) every day as the truth becomes evident to you.
Our friends and family who are not called at this time, do not have the same options that we enjoy. So, we need to be very forgiving and patient with them as if we were Christ to them.
Just my views, Bob
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Ches, yeah I remember Snack's thread you refer to. I've thought of the 15 oz of lies vs the 1 oz of truth. But you see, they're going to be there eating that pound of lies wether I'm there or not.
I don't know...
Matt
1 Corinthians 15:33 - Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Could Satan being luring you? I'm often tempted myself. But there's nothing there.Matthew 10:37-38 says - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
I believe as a man, you've got to stand for THE WORD. In a christian marriage Ephesians 5:23 says - For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
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Hi Bradigans. Good to see ya posting!!!
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Thanks Brad, those are my feelings exactly. I thought I was alone for a sec.
Diane not easy to admit that, but like Ray I try to back everything I say with scripture. If I feel strongly about something emotions might sneek in sometimes. I hope everyone here realizes that I speak out of concern and love.
God be with you,
Roy
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How's it going Gena?
And Roy, Galatians 5:9 says - A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.1 Corinthians 5:7-8 says - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I hope i'm using these scriptures in context.
Anyway, why would someone want to go back to a lie? All I can say is, Satan is cunning.
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Hey Roy, sorry if my response was way off. I've been pretty tired from working to much! :)
I know where you're coming from. When I started this thread, I figured nobody would say much of anything that I haven't already thought a bazillion times, and I was right. I'd say we're all pretty much of one mind here, which is awesome. At the same time, I feel God doing a majorly strange work inside of me. When I get a grasp on it I'll be relieved just to not be in transition, whatever it is. ???
Bradigans, you quoted Ephesians 5:23. Funny. The other night that I spoke of and me and my wife had words about this stuff, she told me that I'm supposed to be the head, and said someday I'll have to step up to the plate and do it. I was close to responding in anger, but I squelched it. I said, "Maybe I already have been. You just don't know it yet!" I guess she's SO into church that she thinks I'm slacking as spiritual head of the family by not going.
Thanks for listening guys, not matter what happens.
Matt
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Roy
I agree with you. It is amazing how God does have everyone at different levels of the milk doctrines.
When they told Jesus, "Your family (mother, brothers) are outside wanting to see you." He said "No that is not my family. You who have ears to hear and eyes to see are my family (mother, brother)"
Like his disciples said in John chapter 6 "This is a hard teaching."
Ray has a great talk that being saved is the hardest thing anyone will ever do in this age.
God's plan is perfect.
CIY
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I disagree with much of what is taught in the orthadox church today.
But God uses the church as the schoolmaster, to bring people to
the knowledge of Christ. Even though it is God who drags people to Christ, I don't personally know anyone that has come to Christ
without the help and encouragement of the church .
Most of the people that I know from the church that I attend are very good people.
Unfortunately, most of them have not a clue, as Ray might say.
I seldom try to change their thinking but I pass along some of Ray's teaching as the time seems right.
But they are nevertheless believers in Christ, and work to spread that knowledge.
So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.
You may find that your children and wife may be more apt to listen to your differing opinions if you actually attend church
with them, than if you did not.
Just my humble opinion on the issue.
Good luck and may God bless you and your family.
Tim
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So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.
You may find that your children and wife may be more apt to listen to your differing opinions if you actually attend church
with them, than if you did not.
Hey Timothy,
God had "a very specific and important purpose" for Hitler, so what is your point? I don't imagine people volunteering to enter a concentration camp.
They [the church] will be more apt to try and absorb him into their system no matter how much he resists. This will bring more issues than solutions. My family and friends have "accepted" my position on scripture even if they don't believe it. After a while, Matt's family will be better off adhering to what they believe and they will start to respect each others opinions rather than try to make each other feel better with counterfeit acts of gratification.
God be with you,
Roy
p.s. Matt, would your wife Join this forum for your sake?
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Brother Matt,
I have only recently been called out of babylon and still consider myself a 'babe'. I share the same challenges as you. My wife takes the girls to the harlot every Sunday. My wife often asks if I would consider going with them mainly I think to passify. I am realting to your dilema. I often think perhaps I should go with them for the sake of reaching out and sharing the true gospel. But for me, I'm not willing to budge. Maybe I'm too 'black & white'. My yes are yes and my no's are no's. I know you to be a great man of God and for God. Please seek the Lord and His will in this decision you are having to face. If you are like me, you get 'lonely' socially. Maybe you don't, I know I do. I haven't found anyone that seems at all interested in seeking truth in my circle of friends at work or around home. Perhaps the price I'm paying ? I will pray that you follow the Lords will for your life in this for this time. I trust you are seeking Him for the answer. You have gotten such a loving response from the others posting here. All have great reply's to you.
In The Love Of Jesus,
Bruce
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Hey Roy, sorry if my response was way off. I've been pretty tired from working to much! :)
I know where you're coming from. When I started this thread, I figured nobody would say much of anything that I haven't already thought a bazillion times, and I was right. I'd say we're all pretty much of one mind here, which is awesome. At the same time, I feel God doing a majorly strange work inside of me. When I get a grasp on it I'll be relieved just to not be in transition, whatever it is. ???
Bradigans, you quoted Ephesians 5:23. Funny. The other night that I spoke of and me and my wife had words about this stuff, she told me that I'm supposed to be the head, and said someday I'll have to step up to the plate and do it. I was close to responding in anger, but I squelched it. I said, "Maybe I already have been. You just don't know it yet!" I guess she's SO into church that she thinks I'm slacking as spiritual head of the family by not going.
Thanks for listening guys, not matter what happens.
Matt
It's all spiritual anyway, according to St John 6:63, including what was said in Ephesians 5:23. Jesus said in Matthew 20:25-28 - But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
A lot of us professing christian men believe that headship begins with authority. No, headship through THE SPIRIT begins with humility. True authority is found in humility (James 4:6). I believe we as christian men learn through THE WORD to lead by and through humility which gives true authority. Wasn't Christ an example of it when HE washed the disciples feet, and then went on to die on a rugged cross? The right woman I believe will respond to true authority found in true humility.
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So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.
You may find that your children and wife may be more apt to listen to your differing opinions if you actually attend church
with them, than if you did not.
Hey Timothy,
God had "a very specific and important purpose" for Hitler, so what is your point? I don't imagine people volunteering to enter a concentration camp.
They [the church] will be more apt to try and absorb him into their system no matter how much he resists. This will bring more issues than solutions. My family and friends have "accepted" my position on scripture even if they don't believe it. After a while, Matt's family will be better off adhering to what they believe and they will start to respect each others opinions rather than try to make each other feel better with counterfeit acts of gratification.
God be with you,
Roy
p.s. Matt, would your wife Join this forum for your sake?
Hi Roy,
Comparing the church to Hitler's concentration camp is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
I only know that by attending church with my wife, and discussing the sermons afterward with her,
pointing out fallacies in the sermon, she has come to believe as I do without me having to
try to change her.
I did not recommend that Matt go to church. I just pointed out that his wife may be more
apt to listen to his view if he did. And the simple fact is that God uses the church to bring
people to the knowledge of Christ. The gospel that the church teaches may be wrong, but it is
nevertheless doing some of the work of God.
Tim
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A lot of us professing christian men believe that headship begins with authority. No, headship through THE SPIRIT begins with humility. True authority is found in humility (James 4:6). I believe we as christian men learn through THE WORD to lead by and through humility which gives true authority. Wasn't Christ an example of it when HE washed the disciples feet, and then went on to die on a rugged cross? The right woman I believe will respond to true authority found in true humility.
Brad, well said. I'm approaching this whole thing with upmost humility because that's how I am. If anyone thinks I'm not swallowing some humble pie by even contemplating going to church, you're nuts. I am very un-authoritative to my wife. This isn't Iraq. Our women don't need their men to command them, force them, coerce them or threaten them. Am I right?
Comparing the church to Hitler's concentration camp is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
I only know that by attending church with my wife, and discussing the sermons afterward with her,
pointing out fallacies in the sermon, she has come to believe as I do without me having to
try to change her.
I did not recommend that Matt go to church. I just pointed out that his wife may be more
apt to listen to his view if he did. And the simple fact is that God uses the church to bring
people to the knowledge of Christ. The gospel that the church teaches may be wrong, but it is
nevertheless doing some of the work of God.
Tim, you sound very wise with that response. Concentration camp? I'm not going to church for a number and a job, that's for sure.
They [the church] will be more apt to try and absorb him into their system no matter how much he resists. This will bring more issues than solutions. My family and friends have "accepted" my position on scripture even if they don't believe it. After a while, Matt's family will be better off adhering to what they believe and they will start to respect each others opinions rather than try to make each other feel better with counterfeit acts of gratification.
Roy, you got me WAY wrong bro. I don't do any counterfeit anything. And they can try all they want to "absorb" me into their "system" but I'm rock, not water. We do adhere to what we believe, I'm solid in my faith and for the time my wife's faith in what she believes is also solid.
You do realize that no matter what you, I, or anyone else says, and no matter what I end up doing about this, the end result is what God already knows will happen, right? He's got this thing in His all-knowing hand right now, and I know He won't let me down. I'm solid.
Matt
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Hi Matt,
After coming out of the Catholic Church in my teens because as I said before, never bought into their doctrines which contradicted Christ's teachings, I was on my own for a long time with the Lord. In 2001, after being called and not really knowing exactly what was going on.....I felt very very alone. I started to attend a small Methodist church. Talked to the pastor there, wondering if I should be baptised again...He said hopefully that is something God will take care of! He knew, although I had never heard of this before. God brought me to my knees with much fear and trembling in true repentence in that tiny little church. I put my sons in the kid's club only, because I felt the sermons were too heavy for them. The director of the children flat out told me if my sons did not attend church, they would go to hell. That was my invitation to leave for good, and I gladly accepted!! I do believe that church served its purpose at that time in my life. But, I will not go backwards....not for anyone, because I am a servant of the Lord and the Lord alone.
Peace to you my friend,
Lisa
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some still have a soft spot for what they left behind and understandibly so. I love the people that attend the church I went to. I hate their evil doctrines. And as for humility, Christ is our example of this, but when it comes to the word of God and truth this is what is said of Jesus:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority
Ray gets knocked for his authoratative tone all the time. So did Jesus. I have at times as well. Because I KNOW this is truth, it's not a gut feeling anymore. In my home I speak with authority because as long as I am concerned the truth will be taught and learned in my household. I will not force anything on anyone (this not Iraq as someone said), but I will speak my mind mind in my own household.
Tim, I will not apologize for my analogies. God has a GOOD purpose for absolutely everything. Yes, the church is being used to bring about God's elect and to bring people to the knowledge of the truth, but everything that happens (good or evil) is to bring us to the knowledge of the truth. Everything God does has a purpose. Whether it be the church, the holocaust, winning the lottery, last weeks black out, typing this message, etc... This experience of evil is part of our creation process. As I said you guys seem to have a soft spot for what you left behind but remember what names are used to described this organism:
Rev 17:1 "...Great whore..."
Rev 16:19 "...great Babylon..."
Rev 17:5 "...THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS..."
Rev 17:5 "...ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
Matthew 7:23 "...ye that work iniquity"
I thought I had made myself clear on why I have such strong feelings on this issue. But once again it seems that not many can clearly see my point. I will not be tolerant of such evil, I will not act like all is peachy and rosie with these people and I will not act as if it is ok to be "unequally yoked together with" them. I mean it says "abominations of the Earth", all the evil acts of any human, any natural disaster, any evil idea that you can think put together and increased exponentially has not created more damage than these evil doctrines taught by the church for the past 1900 years or so. Again this is an individual decision and only prayer can really tell you what is God's take on this, but I will not sit back while a brother of mine contemplates entering the devil's lair (the synagogue of Satan) with out me at least voicing my opinion clearly. So please do not tell me that comparing the church's doctrines to the holocaust is a stretch, it actually not even the tip of the iceberg
Psalm 97:10 "Ye that love the LORD, HATE evil..."
God be with you,
Roy
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Folks,
I think it may be helpful to consider that the holocaust may not have occurred or been as bad if the 'church' had stood up for what is right. Most institutional churches did nothing. Many individual congregations or their members sacrificed to protect Jews and Polish and others who were persecuted, but the main church retained their neutrality and their wealth and are accountable.
Bob
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Bob, you're right about that! I think churches should be way more involved in things. Then again, I suppose God had reason to hold them back from getting involved. I watched a series of documentaries a couple weeks ago about Nazi era Germany, mainly the rise and fall of the Hitler regime. I wonder how many people actually know what all the holocaust entailed, how it started and how it progessed, if progressed is a proper term here. It's amazing how blind the world seemed to be. Hitlers Storm Troopers would travel from town to town, village to village, single out Jews, and harrass them, beat them, kidnap them, kill them, whatever they wanted. Mostly it was killing. The Storm Troopers believed they were on a "sacred mission". How decieved could they be!
The townsfolk who witnessed these things, they did nothing. NOTHING! How could one do nothing? Governments did NOTHING. Nobody did a thing! The video footage turns your stomach if your half of a decent man, and yet NOTHING was done about it for how long? It's disgusting.
Roy, now that I just said all that, I think the analogy is disgusting, comparing a church to the holocaust. Shall we compare pastors to Hitler? A wee bit over dramatic I believe.
Matt
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How many of us would remain in a group that continually maligned the charactor, wisdom and competence of our spouse or parents? Who would quietly sit there amid all the AMENS!
How about when they would malign the charactor of our Loving Lord?
The churches are teaching and worshipping "another Jesus" not the One who we are blessed to be getting to know more of day by day. I cannot bear to hear how He will fail to save His creation and even to continually torture them forever because they did not make an alter call or say a 30 second prayer. It is a horrible thing to contemplate our loving God being so depraved.
Once we are called to Him, once He reveals His plan and purpose to us and how we should be constantly striving for His Spirit to displace our carnal mind to become one with His Mind why would we look back?
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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The holocaust is fresh in our minds... The inquistion could have equalled or surpassed in its grossness.
but once again I am misunderstood... let me quote Tim:
So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.
I differed with this statement that God is not "unhappy" with the church.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
I also believe that everything has a very specific and important purpose. Everything God does is specific and important, not JUST the church. I used the Holocaust as an example to show an extreme example. I was then accused of comparing them when it was not what I was doing. The church is an organization, the holocaust is a chain of events (horrific ones at that). But yet I would still be inclinded to say that the evils involved are comparable if not surpassed by the evil doctrines of the church. I am sorry if I am offedning any ethnic Jews, but I do not hold back what I feel. It has gotten me in trouble in the past. It will probably get me in trouble in this forum. Although, my intentions are sincere.
Let us remember who we battle with.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Surely humans have commited some very horrific and grossly acts of evil. But The synagogue of Satan sits in the church. It is evil. period. This'll be my last post on this thread. My opinion is clear and I don't need to add to it or defend it because I have given enough scripture to show that the church people are comparable to Pharisees, that thier doctrines and their organization are "abominations of the Earth", That their evil doctrines are the fruits of the evil in their hearts, and that we are to HATE evil if we love the Lord. Now I believe these things.
I used to be of the synagogue of satan. I condemed my whole family to an eternity in hell for not believing in Christ and I regret it with all of my heart, that was the greatest EVIL i ever commited in my life. Now if there is something worst than that than you show me! and I will stop my "gross" comparisons.
God be with you,
Roy
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I think the question to ask ourselves is are we the called, chosen, and if we are will we be faithful to the end. Paul says he presses on toward that mark set before him. He forgets his past in religion saying that it is dung. The Israelites that wanted to return to bondage saying that it really was not as bad as we thought it was, died in the desert. God did not say that it is alright to return to Egypt if you want to so that you can lead a more comfortable life. Read Numbers chapter 14.
When man listens to his wife or the world to do it the physical way, you get death like Adam did in satisfying Eve. You get an Ishmael that multiplies and deceives many or you end up cutting the head off of John. Jesus said there were "many that believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him (do his commandments in public) less they be put our of the synagogue. For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."
God does not call you to be comfortable in this world system. To settle down with the world. You must overcome this world. Jesus said "Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."
Read Jeremiah chapter 8 and Hosea chapter 4. They are great at showing how serious God is about what doctrines you continue in. God is a jealous God. He loves you and does not want you worshipping the doctrines of demons in houses made with man's hands where the idols of Baal reside. Saying that God will punish people in hell for eternity is not just a minor issue with God it warps the view of God.
Be very careful less you fall. Do not be so confident that you can stay in the world. Love the things of the world, and not be part of the world. If you love anything of this world the love of God is not in you. Judas was called and chosen. He was not faithful to the end. Going back into Bablyon is not being faithful to the end.
Now in saying all of this, do whatever your heart tells you to do because it is all of God.
This is all in love. I pray that we all have and keep ears to hear and eyes to see so that we do the things God tells us to do.
Be strong and courageous.
CIY
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Saying that God will punish people in hell for eternity is not just a minor issue with God it warps the view of God.
I know I said I won't post on this thread again (sorry) but I must say, CIY that was a great way of putting it. Non-contraversial (unlike me) and scripturally sound. Great answer.
Roy
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Every one of us who has spiritually left the church had a reason to do so.
Before condemning the institution, ask yourself honestly if you would be
where you are in your walk with Jesus if it had not been, in some way, for the church.
If you have to honestly answer no, then the church is still doing good things for our Lord.
Once you have come to the knowledge of our Saviour, and can continue to grow in that knowledge
and personal relationship with Him, then it is understandable, and acceptable to " to want to come out of her".
Dear fe32k, you appear to have been personally hurt by the church organization.
I pray that God will ease your pain and bitterness. It is obvious that you are passionate
for the Lord Jesus.
Tim
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A new email from Ray, should help out a bunch.
Craig
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4814.0.html
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A new email from Ray may help with this discussion.
Craig
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4814.0.html
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Good timing Craig
CIY
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Great Link. Helped me too.
That answer was Ray at his finest too.
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Timothy, you said
Most of the people that I know from the church that I attend are very good people.
I don't believe this should be the criteria someone uses to determine whether to attend or not attend a denomized church. 2 Corinthians 11:14 says - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. I don't care how righteous someone seems, are they standing for THE WORD (God's righteousness).
i think true born again believers should pray before doing anything. 1 Corinthians 10:31 - Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Dear Matt,
I love you brother so please do not be offended by this b/c no offense is meant by it, but, (to me) it sounds as if you are caring more about appeasing your wife (to come to church with her and let her and your kids stay there) than of doing what God says to do as their spiritual covering...(which is to bring them out...'come out of her my people'.) It also seems like she is not willing to trust, support, respect and submit to your spiritual leadership; to me this is here the problem lies. IT IS SHE THAT IS TEACHING YOUR CHILDREN AND LEADING THEM ASTRAY...BY LETTING THEM LEARN WHAT THE CHURCHES ARE TEACHING. Why is this? YOU will be held accountable for allowing the wolves to teach your children and her; and since she wants to stay, let her go , but let the kids stay out of there and at home with you. You are to protect them from satans (church) wiles since they are blinded by the wolves' (church) tactics. God gave you the truth for a reason...use it to get them out of there while you have the chance and before it is too late Matt! (It is harder to UNLEARN lies than it is to learn truths.) Your wife needs to give YOU a chance to teach them at home and give you the respect due you in this leadership/covering area! This will be one of the most important decisions of your life, marriage, and family! As sweet as she and the kids are, she is still blinded, therefore, you must lead her or else it is the blind leading the blind.
I absolutely feel your pain in your struggles in wanting to be pleasing to God while at the same time trying to make spiritual peace in your household. I think that here has been excellent info given on this topic. And after reading all of the posts, I think that Roy, Ciy, and Bradigans has the biblical answer and are unified in the truth of this matter. The issue at hand here is definitely meat and not milk! This is a very hard thing to accept too, but the rewards of living the truth far outweigh the temporal rewards that will not last. Basically, I think that you should take their wisdom and be the spiritual leader of your house once and for all and to be their spiritual covering instead of your wife being the spiritual covering of everyone. I thought it was a good idea that your wife visit the forum instead of you always visiting the church. (WE are the church.)
Again, please don't take this message offensively, you are a dear brother to me!!! :)
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Matt,
I can't help wondering what happened today??? Come out, come out, wherever you are! ;D
Lisa
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Matt. How was it. I want to know too. :D
(boy, this is the thread that would not die)
We love ya, dude!!! ;)
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Hey Matt, my prayers are with you brother.
I am possibly the last person who should comment on this thread; however, let us never forget that the darker the night, the brighter the light. You have clearly came out of the Church and all of it's heinous beliefs. Thankfully, I am not in the same position as you, but brother, like you I could never let my family attend a den of theives alone either.
But neither would I plan on attending the church indefinately either. If your wife is serious about the church and it's doctrines then discuss the sermon and all that she and her kids got out of it when you get home. Like I sai, your light WILL shine over the darkness, and the fruits of the Spirit of Truth will always been seen for what they are. You need not be combative, neither to your family nor the church. By all means drop a hint of truth or a question here and there; if the church EXPLODES and becomes hostile towards you, your family will soon see the darkness for what it is.
Go always prepared for battle brother :)
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
And never be afraind to expose a lie with simple truth.
Be strong in Christ.
Your bro,
Darren
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Well said Darren,
The word surely is a double-edged sword. Because now I'm thinkin of when Jesus said;
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Wow, not an easy situation. And Matt surely loves his wife as himself. Prayers are with you Matt.
Lisa
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Darren, I am concerned that your advice could backfire on Matt if he takes your advice (by dropping hints of the truth to the church and then it explodes on him) ??? I am wondering if this 'explosion' comes down on him from the church members/leaders how his wife may take it? Will she blame him for starting the explosion or will she see that the church is in the wrong and thencome to see the light? I hope that she sees the light as you say. (I sure hope and pray so, but, there are no guarantees.) :(
Matt, I am praying Gods' will be done here and that HE gives you all that you need to do what HE wants of you; I am also praying for your discernment, strength and wisdom my friend and brother!
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Seeks all truth
If you are like me, you get 'lonely' socially. Maybe you don't, I know I do. I haven't found anyone that seems at all interested in seeking truth in my circle of friends at work or around home. Perhaps the price I'm paying.
That's the truth. Man it gets so lonely out here believing like this.
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mari_et_pere
Brad, well said. I'm approaching this whole thing with upmost humility because that's how I am. If anyone thinks I'm not swallowing some humble pie by even contemplating going to church, you're nuts. I am very un-authoritative to my wife. This isn't Iraq. Our women don't need their men to command them, force them, coerce them or threaten them. Am I right?
I believe that according to THE WORD you're right. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 says - Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own (seeks the welfare of others first 1st Timothy 5:8), Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
I know guys who won't even change diapers because they say it's not in a husbands or a man's job description. Stay in THE WORD and follow your heart. Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD
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wow! Susan,
everything U sed 2 Matt, I felt it was ment 4 me also, Thank YOU FATHER, it sort of answered sumfing in which has been buggn me, again Thank YOU FATHER, bcoz it really does sound xactly like wots happening in my relationship, I hav thorts of the perfect & da timing bla bla bla of my marriage 2 da woman i had been wit for 16yrs We jus got married dis yr in January blieving in my Heart it was all GOD, Until now Im thinkn differntly!, Im tryna plezZ my wife but it jus seems everything I say or do is WRONG!, & I fink hmm... "FATHER! were we really suposed 2 get married?". She says 2 me, since urve joined d@ forum urve bcum, arrogant, unsocialble, judgmentle etc etc.. & I start finkn man is she Right!, & I find myself finkn man!! am I being deceived! az every1 trys 2 tell me, But! I jus reply wit "woteva!, uz r" lol!, but! trully I do start wandering Honestly!. Bcoz I hav (loud) debates wit her on our children goin 2 church, she jus answers me wit "well u say da church is like a kindagarten, dont U? so let dem go thru it, U did". So I jus dont no wot 2 say but 2 jus humble myself & let her do woteva, & now jus reading Susans comments 2 Matt jus Hit mE HarD!!, GODBLESS! U Susan u r so Blessed az r alL of uZ in dis hea Forum, I LOVE!! uZ! all so Very much thru JESUS I Pray 2 our FATHER n Heaven Amen.
muchLOVE!! Pera
PS. YES!! Susan u sed it again :) "GODS WilL be done!", muchLOVE!!
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Pera,
I am glad that HE used me to help you. This is a hard life and being a man and spiritual covering over a wife and children must be one (if not) the most responsible jobs that a human has... in my opinion. I respect you guys for having that job...obviously you men are right for the job and women aren't!!! I do not envy your role! MEN will have to answer in judgement for how well you lead your family; we women will have to answer for how well we submitted to and supported our husband and children. (One always knows when they are not in their God given role b/c ...NOTHING WORKS OUR SMOOTHLY as it does when the role is lead by the proper gender.)
I will pray for your family as well. Being in our proper roles makes for an easier and happier marriage. Would your wife be willing to get on the forum? We would love that! I love it when couples are equally yoked and can share this info. Just try to show her LOVE in what ever you choose to do; otherwise, she will not see God and all will be done in vain.
God bless you too Pera. :D
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Wow. There's lots of new replies so I'll just reply to all of you. Thanks by the way to all of you who responded in love and kindness.
I have to set the record straight though:
First, I can't stress enough that I'm not going for my wife. Yes I've gone on a few "special" occassions as a favor, for Christmas and Easter and stuff, but not routinely.
Second, if any of you think I'm going to be deceived, you're way off. It's been brought up in this thread. "The church" couldn't deceive me when I was a young child, how then will they now? Even as a kid I had God saying, "No that's not right. Don't listen to that." If you can't April Fool a kid, you won't get the adult. God is on my side.
Third, and this one's big. None of you mentioned this unless I overlooked it which is possible because I've been working 12 hours at my job lately and I'm tired. But if I end up going, or not going, it's because God is in control!!!! If God wills it, I'll be there. If He doesn't will it, I won't be there. It's that simple! That's one of the basic teachings here at Bible-truths! If God isn't pushing for it, it's not going to happen, no matter what it is. Correct? I know it's correct. I don't need to ask.
Fourth, I'm not going to attend "The Church". I am thinking about going to A Church. Not the church that hurt some of you, but a different one. I'm not defending them or attacking them, but only saying it's A Church, not The Church. They aren't as one. They're so divided it's not even fathomable anymore. You all know that. Two churches across the street from one another can have totally different doctrines.
I love you all for your concern, I really do. How awesome it is. Just to let you know we didn't end up going at all, which was cool with me! ;D We'll see what happens this weekend I guess. Whatever God has me do is what I'll do. It's all Him.
Matt
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matt, you correct...Whatever God wills will happen in the end. Bu, did I misssomething? What was your main reason for going to church in the first place if it wasn't for your wife/kids? (I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to understand...) :)blessings.
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Dear Matt,
I read your post. I can totally relate to what you are saying. I have a similar problem and I don't even know half of what you do. However, something I have learned recently is that your number one responsibility is to be faithful to God. Also, ask yourself this question. If they knew you thought they were in deception and in Babylon how would they feel. Would they want you there? Probably not.
It is Rodger who taught me this truth. Although he misunderstood me, the principle he was teaching is the same. It really hit home how wrong it would be for someone to do this. So you have to ask yourself whether or not your motives are pure and then let God guide you.
Amazing, I guess I do know something now. Thank you Rodger. This is something you taught me.
Sincerely,
Dean
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Dear Matt,
I read your post. I can totally relate to what you are saying. I have a similar problem and I don't even know half of what you do. However, something I have learned recently is that your number one responsibility is to be faithful to God. Also, ask yourself this question. If they knew you thought they were in deception and in Babylon how would they feel. Would they want you there? Probably not.
It is Rodger who taught me this truth. Although he misunderstood me, the principle he was teaching is the same. It really hit home how wrong it would be for someone to do this. So you have to ask yourself whether or not your motives are pure and then let God guide you.
Amazing, I guess I do know something now. Thank you Rodger. This is something you taught me.
Sincerely,
Dean
How can you be faithful to God and His word without God and/or His Holy Spirit? 2 Corinthians 3:6 - Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.John 6:63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
God has provided us with a living way to do or not do things. I'm a monster, and I'm waiting for a living way to be righteous. I'm becoming more and more like Paul who said in Philippians 3:10-11 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. I don't want to do or not do things from the standpoint of tradition or political correctness. Though it's tempting when everybody's pointing the finger. I want to do things that stem from a resurrection because I've become a new creation in Christ, Jesus. Paul said in Phillipians 3:12-14 - Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
We can only be ourselves as we seek the will through THE WORD of THE HOLY SPIRIT (Luke 11:9-12). Everybody tells me I should get married, but my heart still isn't right. I know I went way off, but keep me in your prayers.
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DEAN...BINGO BUDDY!! I want to thank you for what you just said about..." what would the church members think if they thought that you thought that they were living in deception and pretended to be in spiritual agreement with them?"..THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY HERE; I was just at a loss for words.
(Also, to relate this same concept to an almost exact parallel to what I have been going through with a particular homeschool group just a week ago! You see, I could never feel comfortable being around those HS families since I believe that they are deceived (they base the hs groups' statement of faith on the TRADITIONAL CHRISTIANITY belief system instead simply letting all homeschoolers into their group. They are discriminating against me for not believing just as they do with their 'plan of salvation". I felt hypocritical to be a MEMBER of their group when I could not support their foundational Christian precepts and beliefs or participate in them How could I get along with these people when I beliee that they are biblically wrong???. All of the members are unified in these biblical errors. They will not accept other hs'ers, and especially not if they are unbelievers. (...AND THIS IS NOT EVEN A CHURCH; ITS' A HOMESCHOOL SUPPORT GROUP!!!) Plus, it tells me something when we have been with these people for three yrs nearly day in and day out, and NOT ONE has called or emailed to see why we have become inactive members....) Although they call to see if I can help with a project or class!.... ) ???
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Hi Susan,
I would like to comment on a couple of points from a different view point. I love you sister and I do not wish to hurt you in any way.
Let's look at this from the view point of all is of God and all is according to his plan and design.
To keep this simple, let us assume only 2 positions, yours and the HSSG (Home School Support Group)
If we truly believe that all is according to God, then how can the HSSG be deceived? For they didn't / couldn't get it wrong, how could they? God planned it this way. Also, any lack of care on their behalf for you is NOT there fault, not if we give God credit for all; they are unified in thought for a reason.
Feeling like a hypocrite is one way of looking at the position you were in, another is being 'Thankful' that God has seen fit to give you eyes to see the gulf between the HSSG and your God given spiritual understanding.
So now we have two givens, you who can see and the HSSG who cannot. There is really only one other question that needs to be answered. Why did God put you in that position? What was given for you to learn?
This is always the hard part to discern. Was it so that you could in His time, see the gulf between truth and lies? Or was it so that you could suffer ridicule and learn endurance in the hope that the fruits of the spirit might convert some if it God's will to do so. Or was it as you did, seen, understood and acted, that is left the HSSG.
It is how one feels regarding those whom God used to bring one understanding that really counts a lot. I used to feel sorry for such, but clearly that is in error, for feeling sorry means that God messed up. Therefore, feeling anything but love is counter productive to God Himself. I guess the point I am trying to make, is that closer God draws one to him, the less personal life becomes. I might be way off base here, but I don't feel so. I believe that the world becomes less than a mayhem of mass humanity, confusion, deceit and hatred, and more of what it is, a very elaborate testing or proving ground for our spiritual growth.
We can no longer blame 'anyone' for attacking us, without knowing full well that it is "God" we are blaming. Anger, frustration, hurt is simply not an option unless we are happy being the same towards God. I am so discovering that this crazy complicated life is no such thing. It is simple, providing we always understand that God is responsible for everything, and that there is ALWAYS something valuable to learn from it and an opportunity to share the fruits of the Spirit. :)
Thankfully God grants all wisdom and the truth learned may be so simple yet so profound. It sounds simple, and is liberating, but sometimes the answers do not come easy; but this is good, because at least one can determine a breach in understanding, instead of being consumed in carnal traits, blame and indignation being two common ones.
Well I hope I did not lose you or anyone else with this. Comments are always welcome
Love to all in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Susan,
I would like to comment on a couple of points from a different view point. I love you sister and I do not wish to hurt you in any way.
Let's look at this from the view point of all is of God and all is according to his plan and design.
To keep this simple, let us assume only 2 positions, yours and the HSSG (Home School Support Group)
If we truly believe that all is according to God, then how can the HSSG be deceived? For they didn't / couldn't get it wrong, how could they? God planned it this way. Also, any lack of care on their behalf for you is NOT there fault, not if we give God credit for all; they are unified in thought for a reason.
Feeling like a hypocrite is one way of looking at the position you were in, another is being 'Thankful' that God has seen fit to give you eyes to see the gulf between the HSSG and your God given spiritual understanding.
So now we have two givens, you who can see and the HSSG who cannot. There is really only one other question that needs to be answered. Why did God put you in that position? What was given for you to learn?
This is always the hard part to discern. Was it so that you could in His time, see the gulf between truth and lies? Or was it so that you could suffer ridicule and learn endurance in the hope that the fruits of the spirit might convert some if it God's will to do so. Or was it as you did, seen, understood and acted, that is left the HSSG.
It is how one feels regarding those whom God used to bring one understanding that really counts a lot. I used to feel sorry for such, but clearly that is in error, for feeling sorry means that God messed up. Therefore, feeling anything but love is counter productive to God Himself. I guess the point I am trying to make, is that closer God draws one to him, the less personal life becomes. I might be way off base here, but I don't feel so. I believe that the world becomes less than a mayhem of mass humanity, confusion, deceit and hatred, and more of what it is, a very elaborate testing or proving ground for our spiritual growth.
We can no longer blame 'anyone' for attacking us, without knowing full well that it is "God" we are blaming. Anger, frustration, hurt is simply not an option unless we are happy being the same towards God. I am so discovering that this crazy complicated life is no such thing. It is simple, providing we always understand that God is responsible for everything, and that there is ALWAYS something valuable to learn from it and an opportunity to share the fruits of the Spirit. :)
Thankfully God grants all wisdom and the truth learned may be so simple yet so profound. It sounds simple, and is liberating, but sometimes the answers do not come easy; but this is good, because at least one can determine a breach in understanding, instead of being consumed in carnal traits, blame and indignation being two common ones.
Well I hope I did not lose you or anyone else with this. Comments are always welcome
Love to all in Christ,
Darren
Amen! Jesus said in John 6:44 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.I'm finding out that no one is more deserving than anyone else. God simply does what He wants, when He wants, and how He wants. Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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Hello Darren and Bradigans,
Thanks for your input and you both made great points and I agree with you! God is in control of everyone and where they are in their spiritual understanding right now; and to think less of a person is to think less of God b/c God has put them spiritually where HE wills. Yes, they (HSers) are blinded and they do not have a choice to see until HE opens their eyes; I have no problem what so ever with this understanding. (Again, I say that the HS group is 'deceived' b/c that is where God has put them; not to act like I am better than they since I am not 'deceived'.)
My whole point is that I am there to homeschool my son and to help him to get a well rounded education but he cannot get it from these people b/c they do not like the spiritual differences between us (even though we are not there to discuss our spiritual differences); thus, my child is not being offered the same learning opportunities as the other kids are getting. I cannot stay around a HS group who does not care for my child's learning opportunities; that defeats the purpose of being in a HS support group!
(So yes, due to the fact that they do not care THEN IT IS B/C GOD SET THINGS UP TO BE THAT WAY! (I AGREE AGAIN.) Therefore, I cannot blame THEM (or God), I can only be left with a choice that includes getting my son the educational support that he needs. Darren, I see it BOTH ways...me as a hypocrite if I stay around a HS group that clearly states that they are a Christian based organization and that they do not want anyone as member who is of a different view point on the 'christian plan of salvation'; as well as I AM EXTREMELY THANKFUL THAT GOD HAS GIVEN ME EYES TO SEE THESE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS.
Good point Darren; I think that God put me there three yrs ago to get me grounded in learning how to HS, while at the same time; I used to be blinded (and they knew me then) and now God has lifted the blinders, so He had me there to suffer ridicule as well; HE had me there to plant some seeds of truth (while currently there is ONE family that has been there for about 6 months now and they are open to these truths that I have been sharing with them! So...all of the above reasons is why HE put me there Darren. (Thank you for your insight.)
I agree; life is and should be simple...(I have to remind myself sometimes when in the midst of a trial as this), but, we are here on earth for the purpose of judging ourselves...this lifetime is our white throne judgement... and I am SO THANKFUL FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY TO GET IT RIGHT, right now.
I WAS (not any longer) just disappointed to think that I had planned to be with these HS families for 12 yrs of HS educational opportunities, and now I can't since they have closed off the opportunity for my son to learn with these kids since we cannot now get into their SUB GROUP within our already exclusive HS group ( they said that they were too full to accept any other member!)
Now I am sure that I could start up my own sub group within this exclusive HS group by working with a few other members who are also NOT a part of the sub group; but, even they do not want to get close to us b/c of our differing spiritual views; and yet, they do have a personal relationship with the members of the sub group; I know this, I've tried for 3 yrs now to no avail. My child understands that he must endure a certain amount of persecution, and believe me, for an 8 yr old, he has done more suffering at the hands of more family, neighbors, friends, and HS relationships than any 8 yr old child I know! (That is Gods' will too, so it's OK.) But, he also doesn't feel good to know that several of the HS group families all secretly went on a weekend campout and we were not even invited to that either! So as his parents, we do not want him where he is not wanted! hem not wanting us in their classes and personal lives has actually been a blessing b/c it helped us to make the decision to stay away where we are not welcomed. Again, GODS' WILL BE DONE even here. I cannot continue to sit back and allow my child to be ostracised day after day, year after year when all he wants to do is just be friends with his peers! HE needs friends like the HS kids have! He has suffered enough persecution in three yrs. (yes, Gods' will), but now its time to go where he is accepted/respected. HE will provide for Daniel to have friends and peers who respect him.
It is now time to do less with this EXCLUSIVE HS group and to do more with the other groups in town who are INCLUSIVE to anyone that is a HSer. I will just have to spend more time trying to arrange for my son to have access to the same opportunities that I am leaving. (which is also of Gods' design.) At least there is one other HS group that does not have a mandatory christian prerequisite view point in order to join! There are 7 diff HS groups in this town and 5 are christian, one is catholic, and one is non discriminatory (which is the one I will start getting active in order to get Daniel what educational opportunities that he needs and can get accepted at.)
Matt, I am sorry about taking the time to discuss this on your thread (although it does have a common parallel.)
So, if anyone wants to continue this HS discussion, please PM me. Thank you Darren...You've got alot of heart brother :D!
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I jus wanna say,
Amen brothers Darren & Bradigans uz hav jus woken me up, :) I feel I mustve dozed off abit :D Thanks so much coZ U r so right GOD is in Control & 1 mus rememba HE aint jus in Control of us! only! HE is in Control of ALL!, & Thanks again Susan, Y!? bcoz if it werent 4 U dis wouldntve cum out lol! :D, But! in sayn all d@ :) ALL Praise must go to GOD az HE is in CONTROL!! :D, PEACE! & BLESSNZ! 2 uz all.
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Help! I still don't understand what "the church" is here. In ne of Matt's posts he was sying something about going to a church but not the church that some people here. What does it mean? Matt, old buddy, if you are there, clear me up! Thanks!
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Help! I still don't understand what "the church" is here. In ne of Matt's posts he was sying something about going to a church but not the church that some people here. What does it mean? Matt, old buddy, if you are there, clear me up! Thanks!
There's only one true Church (ephesians 4:4-6) comprised of lively/living stones (1st Peter 2:5) connected by and through THE HOLY GHOST. God's Spirit dwells in living/lively stones. 1 Corinthians 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? The true and living God needed a true and living Church comprised of true and living stones (1st kings 8:27) Christ hmiself being the chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). I believe Christ came to build God an habitation and/or dwelling place (Revelation 21:3). Mark 14:58 says - We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
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Hey yeah, I knew that Christ makes us His church. I was just confused because sometimes it mixes me up thinking people are talking about a church building. Thanks!
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Dear Friend Skydreamer,
You hit the nail on the head squarely.
We must be about God's business and that puts us or leaves us IN the world.
We cannot hide from the world's influence or change it by being stubborn or by acting as if we were pouting when our former church or our family members don't agree with us after a few months of explanations. We need to keep in mind that these other folks are just as intelligent and just as valuable to God as are we. It is God who is not calling them at this particular time and it is not their fault that they do not understand. They are not a worse influence on our children than others in the world, that is a serious misunderstanding.
I'm quite sure that anyone of our relatives would lay their life on the line to protect their own flesh and blood if it became necessary and they wouldn't think twice about it either. That being true. . .
I wonder if it is not a gross insult to a Grandparent to indicate to them that we believe that they no longer love their Grandchildren just because of some new truth that has come into our lives. Truth that they have no possible way of checking on. Truth that comes to us only by a direct miracle from God and which they obviously have NOT been given as yet.
The most important character trait mentioned in the Bible concerning Christ followers is that they have LOVE for one another. True, sacrificial love.
Does that somehow exclude flesh and blood relatives? God forbid.
indianabob
Hi Roy,
Yes, those are of course important scriptures to consider. But if I may offer my perspective on how I understand them, or how I apply them to my life (and this is of course, only my understanding at present ;))
As you so rightly point out:
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Therefore, I can be physically in a room full of unbelievers and yet be spiritually NOT fellowshipping with them, as I hold fast to what I believe and see as the truth, in my spirit.
In my heart and in my spirit I can come out of Babylon and not partake of her sins, though I may physically be surrounded by Babylon. (By the way, I agree with others who have said that Babylon is not just present in the church....and I can watch TBN ministers [which I do on a rare occasion for a laugh] with no harm to my spirit, if anything it's a constant confirmation in me that these ministers are "off"....I think as you come out of Babylon, God gives you the gift of discernment where you begin to see the lies like a red light flashing...but this "coming out of Babylon" still is occuring even after you "physically" come out of the church....IMHO)
And so, if I am amongst "unbelievers" and they see that I take a different stand by the questions they ask of me, they will either kick me out of their presence, or they will ask more questions...as the Lord wills.
There are "unbelievers" everywhere!!!! I know of 9 people (that I recently had the joy of meeting for the first time after two years) in my own HUGE city that believe the way I do. We are few and far between....a scattered bunch.)
Now, if I were to attend church for the sake of my family (which admittedly I'm not in the position of having to do), yet all the while they become aware of where I stand through every opportunity that comes up to add comments and answer questions, am I not just "becoming as one of them so that I might save one of them"?
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
Peace,
Diana
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Matt, are you still w/ us??? Haven't heard from you in awhile. Miss your posts.
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I had a thought about this very topic today,and am currently going through a similar situation myself. My thought was concerning the Church or Babylon which I really don't like using that term because it sounds so dismissive and pompous. In the case of the Pharisees they had become evil because they kept their followers in blindness. Matthew 23 vs 13-36. Jesus was very hard or harsh toward them but not the people of Israel.Look at vs 37 same chapter and the compassion for the lost souls. Just the same the Church members are our brothers our family, most are deceived through the false teaching. They are not as the Pharisees, but more like the lost sheep of Israel,in terms of there blindness to God's truth.
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Hi Sonofone,
I understand how you feel. When I first got to this forum, some of the things said here "appeared" to be kind of harsh. That was several weeks ago and as I learn more, I understand that Babylon isn't a mean spirited insult that the Forum members made up. It's from the Word. As far as most people being deceived through false teaching - agreed. But I've notice many/most are like I was at first, they sit and listen to a pastor without digging into the Word for themselves. God of course calls us to dig so in some respects, maybe they can be seen as victims. But on the other hand, we - all of us - will be held accountable for our lives. Anyway, just my thoughts :)