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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on April 03, 2015, 02:32:54 AM

Title: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 03, 2015, 02:32:54 AM
Hey everyone,

So I'm posting this because there has been a lot of controversy in the news about the religious of freedom bills passed in Indiana and its being said that it gives business the right to discriminate against gay people.

In CNN, they interviewed florists who were southern Baptist Christians who stated that they would not serve flowers for a gay wedding. CNN did its best to make those florists seem like crazy people but its got me really thinking about the issue.

Now I don't care about the politics of it, should gay people be allowed the right ot marry etc...etc... because God is going to do with this country as He has planned and so I don't try and go against it or influence its course. I Just try and live Godly by what little God gives me to understand Him.

So my question is, is it wrong to attend a gay wedding? To partake in it in anyway? Lets say I was a florist and a gay couple asked me to set up the flowers at their wedding? What do I do? Do I attend and participate in the setting up of the wedding? I don't know... now im studying to be a doctor so I personally won't have this specific problem and I have no problem treating gay patients but what if I'm asked to CELEBRATE their LIFESTYLE and JOINING when God clearly makes it out to be an abomination?

I mean.. we all sin, we all fall short, and we shouldn't be phony and I'm not trying to be "holier than thou", but I'm honestly wondering, is it blasphemy to CELEBRATE a union of two people (the wedding ceremony) when that type of lifestyle is an abomination to God? Would it not be like, in certain ways, partaking in a celebration for a pagan god? Something Isreal was guilty of in the OT ad naseum before God sent them away in captivity for their wickedness and abominations. No sin should be celebrated and as far as I understand, a wedding ceremony is the celebration of a joining for two people.

So what say my brothers and sisters in Christ?

To re-iterate, I have no problem with gay people having marriage rights, being married,  whatever, they do as they wish. God will sort them out and God Is doing what He has planned, its not my place to tell Him otherwise. Also, I'm working on me and my issues because Lord knows I've got a TON. I'm not better than they because I know in my flesh dwells no good thing. I know its God's mercy and grace that brings any of us near to God and that we are His workmaship. I have no problem interacting with gay people or one day treating them as a physician, but what if I'm asked to go to a gay wedding or I'm forced by a law to partake in a gay wedding (like these florists might one day have to do) or be fined/jailed?

Wouldn't my participating in such an event be my endorsing of such lifestyle and behaviors which I know are clearly wrong? I'm not picking on gay marriage either, no sin should be celebrated. Like I said, it reminds me of Isreal celebrating and worshiping pagan gods.

I'm praying on the issue but I thought i'd bring it up here and see what wisdom my brothers and sisters in Christ might have on this specific matter.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 03, 2015, 08:36:03 AM
Hi Alex,

I remember reading something that Ray said which is, homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin . If I were a florist and a gay couple were seeking to purchase flowers from me I would sell them flowers.

If I considered gay people my enemy, God says love your enemy. We are all sinners like you said so if I only sell flowers to the righteous people in this life then I could only sell to Gods elect .

Guess I would go out of the flower business.  Judge not and you wont be judged .

We must not forget what this life is about, when in doubt, walk in love and where there is no doubt walk in love because perfect love cast out all fears.  :)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Craig on April 03, 2015, 09:28:54 AM
Alex, You are hoping to be a doctor.  If a gay couple come in seeking treatment will you deny them?  If a murderer comes needing you to save their life will you let them die?  If, if, if.

I know your question really had to do with celebrating an occasion that you believe is sinful, to that I answer do what you feel comfortable doing.  What other occasions do you celebrate that are sinful?  What occasions do you celebrate that others believe are sinful? 

Religion all marches to the same drum.  At first its followers believe they have become enlightened, it is they that only understand god and then they become pious, eventually if there is a large enough following they rule over the lives of the believers and then eventually they attempt to rule over the lives of all. Lording over the lives of all lead to murder and evil deeds, done in the name of their religion because god is on their side. It always becomes a battle of us versus them.  There is always a special place for the "true believers", whether it is twenty virgins or a certain number of crowns or a special place, reward etc.

If God is the savior of all, then He will save all.  To make a claim that I know how or why He does what He does, when He will do what He will do, stinks of religion. I say live your life, try to do good and realize there is no good unless God works through you to do good.  If good is in you what good is it if you separate from those who need to see the goodness?

What happens throughout the world is all in God's plan, if we really believe this then we should be satisfied to live our lives, ask for God to use us as His vessel of light and leave it to Him to sort out everthing else.

Craig
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Extol on April 03, 2015, 03:34:17 PM
Personally, I would not go to one of them. That is not to say I am better than them, or afraid of them. They're people just like me. We each have our faults. But I don't want to celebrate sin.

A large number of homosexual folks come to my place of business. I have no problem doing business with them; most of them are kind-hearted people and are nice to talk to. To refuse service to somebody because of his/her sexuality would be the height of hypocrisy, because--as with many men--lust and adultery of the heart are the sins to which I most easily give in.

But there is a big difference between accepting someone with faults and celebrating those faults--even if society says they are not really faults. We don't have to define the person by his/her sexuality, as people have done in the past. There is more to them than sex. I don't mind selling to gay people, buying from them, playing tennis with them, talking sports with them...they are people with a variety of interests, and I don't think I condone homosexuality by playing tennis with a gay man. Invite me to play tennis, and sure, I'll be glad to join. Playing tennis doesn't have anything to do with your sexual preferences. Marrying another man does, and I'd rather not join that party.

And no, I don't feel "holier-than-thou" by refusing to attend. I'm not going to invite all the gay men over for a party next time I look at a woman to lust after her.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lareli on April 03, 2015, 04:00:55 PM
Alex and Extol, what if your son was the one getting married?
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 03, 2015, 07:03:34 PM
It's the kind of 'rhetorical' question I try to avoid.  Especially true in this case, because I never go to weddings to which I am not invited.  But let's say I was close enough to one or both parties so that I WAS invited.  I think I would go.  Of course, I don't know that for sure. 

And then that work will be judged, as will anybody's who did not attend, and the ones getting "wedded" too.  I'm very VERY glad that we have a Judge who judges right.  As per usual, I'd take my chances being 'judged' by guys with bibles.  Water off a duck's back, usually.  There is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM.  I kinda think I know what that means now.  Nobody goes forever without living it.

Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: indianabob on April 03, 2015, 10:25:16 PM
Folks,
This passage from John 17 helps me to understand how to live in the world.
Perhaps it will be of some help to others.
Indiana Bob
- - -


Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: zvezda on April 03, 2015, 10:32:57 PM
now im studying to be a doctor so I personally won't have this specific problem and I have no problem treating gay patients

what if a lesbian couple wanted a child and asked you for medicial advice? Would you treat them the same way as you treat infertile heterosexual couples, knowing that you would help them bring an innocent child to part take their life style?

As for the gay wedding, even if you attend, it doesn't mean you are celebrating. I think it's the same thing as celebrating christmas, going to church, etc. Sometimes you have to go because your family drags you to or for some other reasons. God will judge your heart. I don't think you would celebrate in your heart even if you were attending those events.

1 Samuel 16: 7  ...For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: dave on April 03, 2015, 11:34:19 PM
The situation is here, so now those who listen to His guiding must discern the path. Love is the main foundation, we know what the OT has said, also Paul's instruction on this very thing, now we today find it right in our walk. It is a life style within some humans that has been around since Gen. 19 now here we are hearing, "Bring them forth to us, and we will know them."
I feel the more "religion" antagonizes the situation it will only will cause false fire.
I, personally do not understand what I am to do, but Jesus said
Mat 22:37  And Jesus said to him, `Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding--
Mat 22:38  this is a first and great command;
Mat 22:39  and the second is like to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;

 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 04, 2015, 12:27:58 AM
now im studying to be a doctor so I personally won't have this specific problem and I have no problem treating gay patients

what if a lesbian couple wanted a child and asked you for medicial advice? Would you treat them the same way as you treat infertile heterosexual couples, knowing that you would help them bring an innocent child to part take their life style?

As for the gay wedding, even if you attend, it doesn't mean you are celebrating. I think it's the same thing as celebrating christmas, going to church, etc. Sometimes you have to go because your family drags you to or for some other reasons. God will judge your heart. I don't think you would celebrate in your heart even if you were attending those events.

1 Samuel 16: 7  ...For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

Everyone has given truly great replies and I see that there is much to consider in such a matter. I lean towards Jesse's perspective in that all these things of love, AGAPE the world, are true but not void of the rest of God's Word. It is the SUM of the Word that is truth. You can still love your enemies as Christ commanded without celebrating their sins and flaws. Ray talks on love (Agape verse Phileo) in this respect and I think its something we should all take another look at. I see a marriage ceremony as a kind of festival of two people's love. The celebration of two people becoming one by the making of a covenant vow before God and the world.

Dear Zvevda,

If a lesbian couple asked me for medical advice I would have no problem giving it to them. God is able to save even the uttermost. It is not my place to judge what He is doing in the life of one of His own children. He is the potter and has right to do as He see's fit, even if that means that He plans for this lesbian couple to raise a young child. God can bring that child out of babylon just as He has done with those of us here. I have zero issue providing regular services to gay couples, interacting with them, hanging out with them, etc...

I think Jesse summed it up wisely: "There is more to them than sex. I don't mind selling to gay people, buying from them, playing tennis with them, talking sports with them...they are people with a variety of interests, and I don't think I condone homosexuality by playing tennis with a gay man. Invite me to play tennis, and sure, I'll be glad to join. Playing tennis doesn't have anything to do with your sexual preferences. Marrying another man does, and I'd rather not join that party."

Now I know what is rightin my heart and believe God when He says what He says. They may not know or perhaps once did know but turned their backs on the truth. That's not my problem to worry about though. Even so, How then, after knowing the truth, can I attend their marriage ceremony celebrating a behavior that is condemned by God? Could you imagine celebrating any other sin? We are to overcome sin not celebrate it. 

Christmas, easter, etc... are entirely different in my eyes than deliberately celebrating what is clearly condemned as sinful behavior. I don't know if we can point to christmas and say its the celebration of sinful behavior. At least not every christmas is because everyone celebrates it slightly differently. Some may celebrate it with booz and alchohal and sex parties etc... then I would not attend such a christmas celebration but others may celebrate it with reverence and good honest intentions even if they are not scriptural.

The reason I made this thread is because IN MY HEART it seems WRONG to attend a celebration of sinful behavior in the eyes of God. Again, I'm not trying to pick on gay marriage but its what came to my attention and stuck in my mind. Tell me that marriage is not the celebration of a union between two people before man and God and I will try and see how attending this event is not celebrating, rejoicing, commemorating their sinful act.

God bless you all,
Alex

Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 04, 2015, 12:50:06 AM
It's the kind of 'rhetorical' question I try to avoid.  Especially true in this case, because I never go to weddings to which I am not invited.  But let's say I was close enough to one or both parties so that I WAS invited.  I think I would go.  Of course, I don't know that for sure. 

And then that work will be judged, as will anybody's who did not attend, and the ones getting "wedded" too.  I'm very VERY glad that we have a Judge who judges right.  As per usual, I'd take my chances being 'judged' by guys with bibles.  Water off a duck's back, usually.  There is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM.  I kinda think I know what that means now.  Nobody goes forever without living it.

Dave, you're absolutely right, every act will be judged, even ones such as these. That too gives me peace of mind. I pray that my inquiries are merely God stirring me to a deeper understanding of who He is. I'm just trying to get some clarity. What would Christ do? I just don't see Christ attending a gay wedding ceremony to celebrate it. Maybe to upbraid it like He did the money changers in the temple? I don't know. 

-----------------------http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm

Ray said this: "However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins."

-------------------------

Most of us here are trying to overcome our sins through God's spirit so we don't fall into this category but much of the world has no problem living in sin. Many even live in grossness and magnitude that ray talked about to the point that God hates them. These things are clearly seen in the murderous rampages going on in the middle east today for starters.

Does homosexuality rise to such heights too? Seems extreme to think so but I suppose my mind asks the question.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 04, 2015, 01:42:43 AM
Nothing to worry about here, Alex.  As I've pointed out before, there is no such thing as "gay marriage".

Men cannot, by definition, "marry" men.  Nor can women "marry" each other.  It's a modern--and wholly unscriptural--fallacy.  Ridiculous, really.

God calls this behavior an ABOMINATION.  It is, in no way, a "marriage" or a "union".  On the contrary, the scriptures label this conduct as defiling.  And worse, fornication (especially sodomy) is an especially egregious sin in that it is the ONE sin that is against your own body (ICor 6:18).  According to Paul, homosexual fornication in particular is a sin "WORTHY OF DEATH".    As a Bible-believing follower of Jesus, why on earth would you think otherwise?  WHO, in their right mind, would "celebrate" this bizarre and wicked human behavior--christian or not?

This stuff is easy.  Why do you all seem so confused about it?
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: noeleena on April 04, 2015, 02:57:14 AM
Hi,

Take it as you see fit ,

Im involved with many 1000.s of people many are my friends and a few are very close ,
many I have got to know through work meetings and our many groups ,

Before and I told Jos the same thing this was some 9 years ago , I was going to meet many 1000.s of people I know nothing about and I was not to say any thing or to ?  why I was to get involved with them and also told not to judge any who are different .

or ? why , I was to accept them their difference and treat them as people and as friends , I have done that and still doing that yes many I know their life history and many have been treated badly and with contempt and killed and many other details I wont repeat ,

My detail was  / is to be there for them to stand next to them and hug them and give them something that they know  they are loved wonted and to be blessed in a way they know comes from on high . some of us are called to be where we are needed,

For myself I would not have gone to the places I have been or have meet those I have let alone hug or get to know , yet im accepted and given many doors to go through ,

Do I have any answers as to why ,,,,,,not really .....yet when you trust and give of your self to the one who goes before you then I will follow where im meant to go ,

There maybe many things I really don't like and rather not go to yet I have no fear of im there because im needed there , and this about gay people is no different if im asked or needed I,ll go and be there , ,

The Lord works in ways we don't understand , just ask and be Lead in the way you,r meant to go , and leave the ?s aside ,

and don't judge another  no matter what , yes its hard yes its tough and im so glad im not incharge and being open to The Lord is all that is asked of us , and to follow ,

...noeleena...
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: zvezda on April 04, 2015, 02:59:28 AM
I have zero issue providing regular services to gay couples, interacting with them, hanging out with them, etc...
The way I see it, helping a lesbian couple conceive a child is not just "providing regular services" in God's eyes. They won't get sick or die if you don't help them.

Christmas, easter, etc... are entirely different in my eyes than deliberately celebrating what is clearly condemned as sinful behavior. I don't know if we can point to christmas and say its the celebration of sinful behavior. At least not every christmas is because everyone celebrates it slightly differently. Some may celebrate it with booz and alchohal and sex parties etc... then I would not attend such a christmas celebration but others may celebrate it with reverence and good honest intentions even if they are not scriptural.
I am not saying celebrating christmas is sinful, I am just pointing out that you could physically present in a celebration of any occasions while your heart/spirit is not there. People think you are celebrating by attending the event, it's because "man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart." 1 Samuel 16: 7
I am not saying it's right to attend a gay wedding, I would avoid it if I could, but what if I couldn't...
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 04, 2015, 03:01:48 AM
I don't really like being disrespectful, but have some of you taken leave of your good sense?
  What did Jesus say ?
      Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

God has NOT brought two men or two women together. How can any of you stand by and act as a witness to it?
As you all know, I have a 'gay' son.  I would lay down my life for him but I will Never go to a same sex "wedding".  And by the way , the United States can call it marriage all they want but it is not marriage - it is plain fornication. 
Love your enemies . Lay down your life for those in sin as your savior did. But don't join them in their celebration of sin!
   I believe this is happening now because we are coming closer to the Day when Jesus returns. The Bible starts with creation and then setting up male and female identity. It is not a surprise that we are violating the very  core of our being. 
  Is the very elect of God becoming "Americanized" in their view of homosexuality? Well,  sadly some have.
 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 04, 2015, 03:21:36 AM
Alex and Extol, what if your son was the one getting married?

When our children become our God then we have a real problem.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 04, 2015, 03:53:43 AM
If you can show me one instance where Jesus "upbraided" run-of-the-mill sinners (not religious leaders), I'll consider upbraiding them.  I'm not quite sure how to do that, since I don't preach 'fags burn in hell', but scripture tells me to answer questions.  There's too much left out of this 'scenario' for my comfort in answering what I would do without qualification. 

There are a lot of sins "worthy of death".  But Paul had more to say about this than as a prosecuting attorney.  We see what we see, however, and act accordingly.  The High Priest who is not untouched by our many temptations sets things right.  If He needs my help, He will set the circumstance in place where I will be there to do so.  Everything else is also "un-scriptural".  I'm not required to judge those "outside".  And I'm not required to tirelessly "preach" to anybody until they "see the light" or kill me.  There is a reason why we are told to speak to a brother in certain ways and not more than two or three times...and it has little or nothing to do with the BROTHER, and more to do with "US" why this is so, I think.

BUT...let everyone be convinced in their own mind.  I've actually never been to ANY wedding that I "believed" was my "participation" in their union.  I've gone because I was invited, or because (on one or two occasions) I was in the wedding 'party' and they rented me a tux.  I just don't think I'm all that important, I guess.  All I've considered NOT doing was hanging around for the honeymoon.  I think I'd keep the same restriction in any case like this.

     
   
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 04, 2015, 04:00:56 AM
I don't really like being disrespectful, but have some of you taken leave of your good sense?
  What did Jesus say ?
      Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

God has NOT brought two men or two women together. How can any of you stand by and act as a witness to it?
As you all know, I have a 'gay' son.  I would lay down my life for him but I will Never go to a same sex "wedding".  And by the way , the United States can call it marriage all they want but it is not marriage - it is plain fornication. 
Love your enemies . Lay down your life for those in sin as your savior did. But don't join them in their celebration of sin!
   I believe this is happening now because we are coming closer to the Day when Jesus returns. The Bible starts with creation and then setting up male and female identity. It is not a surprise that we are violating the very  core of our being. 
  Is the very elect of God becoming "Americanized" in their view of homosexuality? Well,  sadly some have.
 

Dear Rose,

Thank you for your input, especially as one who is so closely affected by this issue. As I said, I too do not feel right celebrating what God has condemned. Its why I started this whole thread in the first place and I feel the same now. If anything, this thread and its responses have moved me to better understand why I felt the way I did.

Now these things may very well be happening in America for the reason you mention. Other recent threads lead me to believe that our Father is moving us to a greater understanding of Him. Some things like the Enigma of God may be things that have long been hidden now but are being revealed again once more. Perhaps for good reason too.

I think you and Neo are both making the same point as well, though Neo a bit stronger in tone, that "gay marriage" isn't marriage at all as far as God and the Word are concerned.

I agree too that when our children become our God then we have a serious problem.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 04, 2015, 04:10:25 AM
If you can show me one instance where Jesus "upbraided" run-of-the-mill sinners (not religious leaders), I'll consider upbraiding them.  I'm not quite sure how to do that, since I don't preach 'fags burn in hell', but scripture tells me to answer questions.  There's too much left out of this 'scenario' for my comfort in answering what I would do without qualification. 

There are a lot of sins "worthy of death".  But Paul had more to say about this than as a prosecuting attorney.  We see what we see, however, and act accordingly.  The High Priest who is not untouched by our many temptations sets things right.  If He needs my help, He will set the circumstance in place where I will be there to do so.  Everything else is also "un-scriptural".  I'm not required to judge those "outside".  And I'm not required to tirelessly "preach" to anybody until they "see the light" or kill me.  There is a reason why we are told to speak to a brother in certain ways and not more than two or three times...and it has little or nothing to do with the BROTHER, and more to do with "US" why this is so, I think.

BUT...let everyone be convinced in their own mind.  I've actually never been to ANY wedding that I "believed" was my "participation" in their union.  I've gone because I was invited, or because (on one or two occasions) I was in the wedding 'party' and they rented me a tux.  I just don't think I'm all that important, I guess.  All I've considered NOT doing was hanging around for the honeymoon.  I think I'd keep the same restriction in any case like this.

     
 

Good point too Dave.

I don't think any of us here will ever be invited to a gay wedding so lets all remember this was just a hypothetical what if... because I knew how I felt about gay marriage and those who are gay but I didn't know what I would do in regards to attending one and what that would mean if I did attend.

While you may not personally have had any opinion on the bride and groom, most people that attend a marriage are there to show their support. At least... that's my understanding. Personally I can't remember the last time I was at a wedding, I think I was too young to remember so I can't say there was much of an issue conscience wise.

So now this discussion has opened my eyes to why I felt as I did and why its good to seek the perspectives of those like minded. It helps me "try the spirits," including those that like to move my thoughts this way and that way.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 04, 2015, 05:08:28 AM
I didn't say I had no opinion of the brides and grooms.  They invited me to their wedding, after all, and I went because I either loved them or liked them well enough to carve out a bit of time for them.  I said I didn't feel like *I* was important or "participating" in anything other than a wedding ceremony.  It would have happened without me, and as Abraham Lincoln said at Gettysburg, it is not within my poor powers to "consecrate" anything.   
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Joel on April 04, 2015, 12:27:58 PM
Romans 12:18-If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

I think Lot must have been trying to live at peace until God intervened in judgment.

2nd Peter 2:7- And he delivered just Lot, vexed with the conversation of the wicked:

Seems like the issue of gay rights is being forced on those that aren't sympathetic with their cause these days.
Jesus said "Go and sin no more" on a couple occasions, don't see where he would condone man with man, or women with women debauchery.

Ray said at least once in answering an email that he didn't like answering hypothetical questions. (defend ourselves)

Joel



Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 04, 2015, 12:41:08 PM
You gentlemen have not been the mother of the bride - I have.
The work that it takes to put on a wedding, the expense, where the ceremony is held - is all about the Guests ! They are not bystanders like some passers by walking through the park. It is a ceremony put on for the guests- unless the couple go off by  alone . If you are there you are a participant .
  Jesus made it clear what marriage was and by Who's hand it was instituted . That's all we really need to know.
  I am not upbraiding nonbelievers - I'm upbraiding you.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Mike Gagne on April 04, 2015, 01:08:22 PM
Romans 12:18-If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

I think Lot must have been trying to live at peace until God intervened in judgment.

2nd Peter 2:7- And he delivered just Lot, vexed with the conversation of the wicked:

Seems like the issue of gay rights is being forced on those that aren't sympathetic with their cause these days.
Jesus said "Go and sin no more" on a couple occasions, don't see where he would condone man with man, or women with women debauchery.

Ray said at least once in answering an email that he didn't like answering hypothetical questions. (defend ourselves)




 

Joel






Good answer Joel.  :D  Its not about the gay man or his wedding, its about you...
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:  Their time of judgement will come and they will learn righteousness!

Alex your qoute; So now this discussion has opened my eyes to why I felt as I did and why its good to seek the perspectives of those like minded. It helps me "try the spirits," End of qoute.
Alex is this how we try the spirits, by talking about not going or going to a gay wedding that hasn't happened yet?? 

All the wonderful truths Lray taught and we talk about this?  >:(
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 04, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
Romans 12:18-If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

I think Lot must have been trying to live at peace until God intervened in judgment.

2nd Peter 2:7- And he delivered just Lot, vexed with the conversation of the wicked:

Seems like the issue of gay rights is being forced on those that aren't sympathetic with their cause these days.
Jesus said "Go and sin no more" on a couple occasions, don't see where he would condone man with man, or women with women debauchery.

Ray said at least once in answering an email that he didn't like answering hypothetical questions. (defend ourselves)




 

Joel






Good answer Joel.  :D  Its not about the gay man or his wedding, its about you...
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:  Their time of judgement will come and they will learn righteousness!

Alex your qoute; So now this discussion has opened my eyes to why I felt as I did and why its good to seek the perspectives of those like minded. It helps me "try the spirits," End of qoute.
Alex is this how we try the spirits, by talking about not going or going to a gay wedding that hasn't happened yet?? 

All the wonderful truths Lray taught and we talk about this?  >:(

Hi Micheal,

Yes this is how I try the spirits. I search scripture first. Scripture has said what it has said. If I feel like I need further input and more to search out my own thoughts then what better way then amongst those who are of like mind and that one body? I am by no means perfect, a great sinner in fact, but by the grace and mercy of God I strive forward nonetheless.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I'm trying to avoid being wise in my own conceits. I trying to understand this through the spirit of God and not of man's.

God brought this issue onto my mind and heart and caused me to search it out. Here I am. Does this offend you?

It is hypothetical for me now but perhaps one day it won't be and I'd like to know if that time comes that I am grounded and rooted in the truth not to be shaken by the way's of this world.

If the moderators feel this thread has gotten out of line or served its purpose and there is no benefit in the Body of Christ searching this matter out further then I am fine with them ending the discussion. All in accordance with God's plan.

God be with you,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Ricky on April 04, 2015, 02:07:08 PM
Neo got a great answer, so lets go up one, did you get married by God or by man? in a church where Satan sits on the throne, by a pastor of lies. Does God Honor Pagan marriages? Where does it say that in the book? Everything that is done by man in life is against God.  Ricky
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Mike Gagne on April 04, 2015, 05:12:38 PM
Hi Alex, no Alex you do not offend me. 

Your Qoutes;
 Yes this is how I try the spirits. I search scripture first. Scripture has said what it has said:

I'm trying to avoid being wise in my own conceits. I trying to understand this through the spirit of God and not of man's.    End of qoutes.

 Alex in all your posts you use two scriptures and they only tell me one thing, heres those scriptures;
 
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1Co 1:10  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Alex I don't think this will come about by talking about whether we go or don't go to a gay couples wedding. But I do believe the answer your looking for was in my last post!

Job 23:10  But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:

Isa 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness
 
Now we all know LRay teachings on what judgement, chastisement and grace mean, teachings.  Jesus is teaching us to do whats right!  So if a gay couple invite me to go to wedding and what ever my choice will be, if I am the called and chosen and if and when the time comes then I know that Jesus righteous judgements will teach me to do whats right! And also by your two scriptures above,  the only way we  will be in unity, is by his righteous judgements. And I believe that all I said is in line with LRays teachings .
 
Mat 6:34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: (  your doing what Jesus said not to do with this post )  for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Joh 14:27  Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

In Christ Michael
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 04, 2015, 05:58:12 PM
Neo got a great answer, so lets go up one, did you get married by God or by man? in a church where Satan sits on the throne, by a pastor of lies. Does God Honor Pagan marriages? Where does it say that in the book? Everything that is done by man in life is against God.  Ricky

 I'm not sure what to make of this. We should all say, " Too bad I didn't know the truths of God when I was married  in a church I am no longer a part of. Sorry kids, your parents aren't really married after all! ".  Ray said marriage was a vow - I took a vow as many of you did. Now we should just say "Whoopsey!"
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 04, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
The bigger picture I see is that no matter who one caters to are catering to a sinner / sinners People lie, should we not sell them food ? People steal, should we not sell then cloths ?

I guess the difference is being either God centered or self righteous. But then again, its all of God anyways.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 04, 2015, 08:19:26 PM
And you dont see the difference between selling food and catering  an event?   But no, lets all just live and let live and God will make it all right in the end. Kind of the hippy Christian if you ask me.

the world doth hate you, ye know that it hath hated me before you; 19if of the world ye were, the world its own would have been loving, and because of the world ye are not — but I chose out of the world — because of this the world hateth you. 20‘Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his lord; if me they did persecute, you also they will persecute; if my word they did keep, yours also they will keep; 21but all these things will they do to you, because of my name, because they have not known Him who sent me.


My questions  are, is this only for the apostles, because I don't think so. Why Would the world hate us  if we are so willing to hang out and let everyone do their thing? 
Do you remember why John the Baptist was Beheaded? Herod was with with brothers wife, and John said it was not lawful for him to have her- and his head ended up on a platter for it!   Following Jesus costs!   It's cost me my son- my only son!

Is there evidence to indict us as Christ Followers? DOES the world Hate us? Because Jesus was hated and if they hated him, they will hate us.
How many people hated Ray? You've read ithe letters just as I have.  When you speak the truth there will be people who hate you.
 My righteousness does not come from self - it comes from Christ.  I have nothing in me that lends itself to righteousness.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 04, 2015, 09:46:17 PM
The bigger picture I see is that no matter who one caters to are catering to a sinner / sinners People lie, should we not sell them food ? People steal, should we not sell then cloths ?

I guess the difference is being either God centered or self righteous. But then again, its all of God anyways.

Rick,

Not to come off too harsh brother but if this is what you still think this whole thread is about then you've completely miss understood.

God bless,
Alex

Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 04, 2015, 11:00:26 PM
I knew it was a fool's errand to try to give a brief, thoughtful answer to a hypothetical question.  Still, sometimes I just can't shut up.  Don't assume too much from my answers.  I agree with Ray's paper on homosexuality.  I even agree with the title. 

The "simple" answer always carries more weight in the world than the more complex and nuanced answer which might well be the 'true' one.  There were too many facts left out of the question and too many assumptions behind it.  God is my judge, and the only One I am concerned with.  That'll get you hated by everyone. 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 05, 2015, 07:08:56 AM
Christ has not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. Catering an event is one thing an celebrating an event is another thing.

I will only say what Christ said, let he here who is without sin cast the first stone.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Extol on April 05, 2015, 09:47:14 AM
Alex and Extol, what if your son was the one getting married?

I don't see how that should be an excuse to join the party. God - willing I would not join in if my son asked me to help him cheat on his taxes, or go to a party and get drunk with him. Neither would I want to endorse and condone his sequel "love" for another man.

As Dave has wisely pointed out, these are hypothetical situations. We don't know for sure what we'd do, and answers to such questions are often unsatisfactory to the asker. I think homosexuality is a sin, and I wouldn't feel comfortable attending a celebration of that sin,  no matter who it is.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: santgem on April 05, 2015, 10:11:50 AM
Romans 14

The Danger of Criticism

1 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong.2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables.3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.4 Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval.

5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves.8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
  10 So why do you condemn another believer*? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.11 For the Scriptures say,

"'As surely as I live,' says the LORD,
'every knee will bend to me,
  and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.*'"

12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God.13 So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.
 14 I know and am convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.15 And if another believer is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died.16 Then you will not be criticized for doing something you believe is good.17 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.18 If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God, and others will approve of you, too.19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.

  20 Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, all foods are acceptable, but it is wrong to eat something if it makes another person stumble.21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble.22 You may believe there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God.

Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right.23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 05, 2015, 12:35:46 PM
The bigger picture I see is that no matter who one caters to are catering to a sinner / sinners People lie, should we not sell them food ? People steal, should we not sell then cloths ?

I guess the difference is being either God centered or self righteous. But then again, its all of God anyways.

Rick,

Not to come off too harsh brother but if this is what you still think this whole thread is about then you've completely miss understood.

God bless,
Alex
Hi Alex,

In your original question you asked ( is it wrong to attend a gay wedding ,to partake of it in anyway,) then you give an example of being a florist where a gay couple ask you to set up the flowers at their wedding

Are they asking you to sell them flowers or to join in on the celebration of the marriage or both ?
If they are asking you to sell them flowers only, that is your job according to your scenario an if its your job then do your job to the glory of God.

If they are asking you to join in on the celebration I will only recite your words back to you ( To re-iterate, I have no problem with gay people having marriage rights )

If you have no problem with gay people having marriage rights why would you have a problem setting up flowers for their wedding ? That is what you were asking right, is it wrong to attend or partake.
 
What I was saying is if one wishes to discriminate against one sin why not discriminate against all sins or do we show the lost sheep of God that we are hypocrites ?

Let he here who is without sin cast the first stone at the gay person the liar the thief the murderer  etc, etc.

Love covers a multitude of sins Alex.

God bless.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lauriellen on April 05, 2015, 01:03:25 PM
It seems to me that Jesus set the example for us to follow:

Luk 19:5  When Jesus came to that place, he looked up and said to Zacchaeus, "Hurry down, Zacchaeus, because I must stay in your house today."
Luk 19:6  Zacchaeus hurried down and welcomed him with great joy.
Luk 19:7  All the people who saw it started grumbling, "This man has gone as a guest to the home of a sinner!"

Luk 7:39  Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mat 11:19  The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

It seems pretty clear to me......

Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2015, 02:45:44 PM
It seems to me that Jesus set the example for us to follow:

Luk 19:5  When Jesus came to that place, he looked up and said to Zacchaeus, "Hurry down, Zacchaeus, because I must stay in your house today."
Luk 19:6  Zacchaeus hurried down and welcomed him with great joy.
Luk 19:7  All the people who saw it started grumbling, "This man has gone as a guest to the home of a sinner!"

Luk 7:39  Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mat 11:19  The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

It seems pretty clear to me......

Hi Lauriellen,

These are great verses and thanks for sharing them. They certainly add perspective to the discussion.

I don't have a problem eating with sinners or being touched by sinners or any of what Jesus did. I bump into sinners everyday and I eat in the house of a sinner every day (my own house).  This isn't the discussion here. None of the above involves me putting my stamp of approval upon the any sinful behavior by any of the sinners.

The discussion is partaking in a celebration for sinful behavior. Christ attended a marriage feast where he turned water into wine but would He have attended this same wedding feast to celebrate the bride and bridegroom's if they were gay? That's where my uncertainty lied originally in starting this whole thread.

John 2:1-2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Jesus spent a lot of time around sinners but He never celebrated their sins. In fact, He was constantly telling them to REPENT for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

If you read Mat 9:13, of which you quoted the previous two verses, Jesus says just that:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but SINNERS TO REPENTANCE.

So this is where I am at and I just don't see Jesus celebrating any sinful behavior, not even at the ceremony for the joining of two gay couples. Some people have stated they could attend a gay marriage without celebrating with those at the wedding but I suppose then it becomes a slippery slope. Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.

God bless,
Alex



Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 05, 2015, 03:03:36 PM
Thank you for the thoughtful response Alex.
 I was about to write something on the lines of  by all means then, go off  to Hugh Heffners mansion and eat with him during one of his parties. What's  the difference? Lets just celebrate sin and violate I Corinthisns 13 that says Love  does not  rejoice in evil but in the truth.
  But I do not have to say any of that because you said it much better and less emotionally.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2015, 03:06:26 PM
The bigger picture I see is that no matter who one caters to are catering to a sinner / sinners People lie, should we not sell them food ? People steal, should we not sell then cloths ?

I guess the difference is being either God centered or self righteous. But then again, its all of God anyways.

Rick,

Not to come off too harsh brother but if this is what you still think this whole thread is about then you've completely miss understood.

God bless,
Alex
Hi Alex,

In your original question you asked ( is it wrong to attend a gay wedding ,to partake of it in anyway,) then you give an example of being a florist where a gay couple ask you to set up the flowers at their wedding

Are they asking you to sell them flowers or to join in on the celebration of the marriage or both ?
If they are asking you to sell them flowers only, that is your job according to your scenario an if its your job then do your job to the glory of God.

If they are asking you to join in on the celebration I will only recite your words back to you ( To re-iterate, I have no problem with gay people having marriage rights )

If you have no problem with gay people having marriage rights why would you have a problem setting up flowers for their wedding ? That is what you were asking right, is it wrong to attend or partake.
 
What I was saying is if one wishes to discriminate against one sin why not discriminate against all sins or do we show the lost sheep of God that we are hypocrites ?

Let he here who is without sin cast the first stone at the gay person the liar the thief the murderer  etc, etc.

Love covers a multitude of sins Alex.

God bless.

Hey Rick,

I see you don't think there is a difference between "I have no problem with gay people having marriage rights" and attending a gay marriage.

Well let me tell you there is a BIG difference.

I don't think homosexuality is okay. It is a sin. The reason I don't have an issue with gay people having marriage rights is because I am not OF this world. I belong to the KINGDOM OF GOD and my CITIZENSHIP is in the heavens. You can't partake in the affairs of men and the affairs of God. A house divided amongst itself cannot stand and you cannot serve two masters. I am a sojourner in this world and this land. I don't partake in the political affairs of its people and nations. In that respect I don't have any issue.

If you also read the rest of what I wrote you would see I explained this previously by stating that God has a plan and He is going to execute it regardless of what my opinion on the matter is. What is deemed necessary must and will come to pass. God is wise and does not make mistakes. His ways are perfect.

I used the Flowers and the Florists as an example of the current issue that brought me to this question I posed and will ask again.

Is my PARTICIPATION in a CELEBRATION OF SINFUL BEHAVIOR acceptable in the eyes of God? I stated this in that same reply you quoted from. Please re-read it now with the understanding that celebrating a gay marriage by attending and participating in its idiosyncrasies is not the same thing as being okay with gay marriage rights as I just now explained to you.

By your post I'm sensing that you think there is no difference between "loving [AGAPE] your enemies" and celebrating their sinful behaviors.

There is a big difference between celebrating sinful behavior and loving the world [AGAPE]. We love the world not because we accept or condone or participate in its evil and sinful ways but BECAUSE we see what the world will be like one day when God has finally conformed every person into His image. That is worth loving and that is what God saw when He first commended His love towards us through His son.

God be with you,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 03:07:58 PM
Hi everyone,

I've been reading your posts and replies.  Yes, it's a very hypothetical question.  My belief is this:  If you have to ask, the answer is a big no.  And, when in doubt, do nothing.  Say nothing.  The answer will come to you.

As for those who say that Jesus ate with publicans and sinners, true and the reason He did that was not to PARTY with them and celebrate THEM.  Jesus came to SAVE SINNERS.  I'm not perfect and I'm not that smart, and I've found myself in situations that I thought I could handle.  But the truth of the matter is, I was somewhere where i had no business being. 

I believe that when our relationship with Christ is on the level that it should be, yes, you may know and work with gays and lesbians but they would know you well enough to know that inviting you to their wedding would be akin to asking you to set aside your beliefs.

When Paul condemned sexual sin he didn't then say, but go hang out with them. 

Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."  (1 Cor. 15:33) 

We all have problems and struggle with our sin.  That is a good sign that your heart is inclined toward doing what is right.

And there are gays and lesbians here who read Ray's writings and one that I know of who is a member of this forum whose name I will not divulge.  I'm not going to "out" him.   He loves Ray.  He struggles with his desires.  So this is not a person who doesn't want to please God. 

Isaiah says:  I am the high and the lofty One, and I also dwell (eat and drink symbolically speaking) with the CONTRITE and LOWLY IN SPIRIT.   (those who are feeling SORROW FOR THEIR OWN SINS AND SHORTCOMINGS)

THOSE are the kinds of people Jesus ate and drank with, for those are clearly UNclear on the matter.

Imagine Jesus or Paul being invited to a gay wedding and as if that weren't strange enough, then imagine them contemplating whether or not they should attend it. 

Imagine Ray being invited to a gay wedding and attending.

So, tell me this:  When your friends want to marry more than one person, or their pet and they invite you, will you scratch your heads and ask, Gee, what would Jesus do?

Jesus doesn't love US the way we are.  He loves us from WHAT we are.  Only the devil loves you the way you are.  And if you're that worried about offending someone of that mindset and think, Well, if they invite me then I'll go because after all, I'm not supposed to judge them, then you are now guilty of loving mother, father, brother, sister, son / daughter and friends MORE than God and you cannot be His disciple.   

I'm not saying hate these people who do those things.   When Paul said, I don't judge those on the outside but on the inside, what he means is, he doesn't get ENTANGLED IN THE WORLD'S AFFAIRS.  That's what he was saying.  Why do you think he told the Corinthians to throw the man out who was sleeping with his father's wife?  Because he didn't want them being entangled with anyone who was obviously still entangled in sin.  Just throw him out.  Don't kill him, don't murder him, don't call the police, just throw him out till he's had his fill of "pleasure," and when he sees he's for himself that he's wallowing in sin like pig and wants to come back, then let him come back, and drop the matter. 

How do you separate yourself from those sins and then partake in the celebrating of them at the same time, huh?  Paul didn't say you couldn't eat with gays and lesbians, etc., etc., did he?  No, he didn't.   He said you couldn't eat with anyone who calls themselves a Christian and does those things. 

Now, how many gays and lesbians AFFIRM what they're doing and call themselves Christians?  Many.  (I'm not talking about the ones who are struggling and feeling contrite over their sins, believe me.  There is a difference.  And one gay/lesbian fleeting thought or fling does not a homosexual make, that's clear.)

We are all guilty as hell of ALL.  But don't let your guilty conscience weaken you to the point that you feel pity for these people and go party with them in their sin.  You may as well be going to celebrate a future train wreck!  And what will your response be to them when God touches their eyes and THEY SEE their own sin?  Will you say, Well, I was only trying to be nice.   No, you were trying to not offend them. 

Assuming your walk with Christ is so weak that you would be invited by gays and lesbians to celebrate their "marriage," all you have to say is:  OH, boy!  Look at the time.  I really have to be CLEAN MY SHOWER!

Or, I'M SORRY BUT I'VE BEEN INVITED TO ANOTHER WEDDING THAT DAY. 

Or, I'M SORRY BUT I HAVE TO GO SHOPPING THAT DAY.

If you are so WEAK in your faith that you feel you must GO BACK into the world to offer comfort to sinners who just LOVE to be comforted by you and to be told that what they're doing is not so bad, and that God loves them just the way they are, YOU misunderstand.

Paul said, that f-r-i-e-n-d-s-h-i-p  (he didn't say you couldn't eat a meal with or do business) with the world is emnity with God (that is deep seated hatred).  Remember, the Samaritan, as Ray aptly pointed out, took the man who was beat and robbed to a hospital and had THEM nurse the man back to health.  The Samaritan didn't nurse him back to health.  Doesn't say whether he became friends with him and started playing tennis with him or going to parties and all of that. 

You might think you're strong enough and holy and righteous enough to be able to withstand the attacks of the adversary, but  you don't even realize that the attacks from the adversary are coming at you wrapped up in a beautiful velvet rainbow colored glove, With "love."   

You're naive.   

When you up and go to a gay or lesbian wedding this is ultimately what you're affirming: 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/17/dear-gay-community-your-kids-are-hurting/

God bless you all.  I can't even believe that we have to have this discussion.  There should have been no question about this issue. 

Octoberose, thank you very much for your willingness to say what you said.  I know you didn't mean to come off rude, and from my standpoint, you did not.  We're in the same as you know.  My daughter informed me a year ago that she was going to marry her girlfriend since her own adoptive grandfather had instructed her throughout her life to "not date bozos," which, to her meant date girls.   

And for those who might misunderstand what I'm about personally:  Nobody's telling gays and lesbians that they must become attracted to and marry the opposite sex.   Nobody's telling you that that is what you must do.  I certainly am not.  But if the lifestyle were to be affirmed to the point of marriage, and if it doesn't harm anyone, then why oh why are so many doing Youtube videos about how they've abandoned their lifestyle and feeling sorrow for their choice, huh?  These are beautiful people whom God loves and these are those whom Isaiah said He dwells with.

God bless.  And please don't take offense at anything I've said here.  It's all the truth and you know it. 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dennis Vogel on April 05, 2015, 03:17:02 PM
Words of wisdom Gina - It looks to me as though we are reverting back to the ways of Sodom. And we will pay the price someday.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 05, 2015, 03:29:38 PM
It seems to me that Jesus set the example for us to follow:

Luk 19:5  When Jesus came to that place, he looked up and said to Zacchaeus, "Hurry down, Zacchaeus, because I must stay in your house today."
Luk 19:6  Zacchaeus hurried down and welcomed him with great joy.
Luk 19:7  All the people who saw it started grumbling, "This man has gone as a guest to the home of a sinner!"

Luk 7:39  Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mat 11:19  The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

It seems pretty clear to me......

 your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.

God bless,
Alex



I disagree with that statement because one’s physical presences does not reveal the heart but one’s words does, from the abundance of the heart does the mouth speak.

One cannot possible know the motive of a persons heart because of their presence in any situation.

Lets try that out on Jesus, Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Jesus is present with publicans and sinners, what does that say about Jesus in the eyes of the Father ? You see what I mean Alex.

And by the way, Jesus is present at every gay marriage at every murder at every crime scene.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2015, 03:36:56 PM
Hi everyone,

I've been reading your posts and replies.  Yes, it's a very hypothetical question.  My belief is this:  If you have to ask, the answer is a big no.  And, when in doubt, do nothing.  Say nothing.  The answer will come to you.

As for those who say that Jesus ate with publicans and sinners, true and the reason He did that was not to PARTY with them and celebrate THEM.  Jesus came to SAVE SINNERS.  I'm not perfect and I'm not that smart, and I've found myself in situations that I thought I could handle.  But the truth of the matter is, I was somewhere where i had no business being. 

I believe that when our relationship with Christ is on the level that it should be, yes, you may know and work with gays and lesbians but they would know you well enough to know that inviting you to their wedding would be akin to asking you to set aside your beliefs.

When Paul condemned sexual sin he didn't then say, but go hang out with them. 

Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."  (1 Cor. 15:33) 

We all have problems and struggle with our sin.  That is a good sign that your heart is inclined toward doing what is right.

And there are gays and lesbians here who read Ray's writings and one that I know of who is a member of this forum whose name I will not divulge.  I'm not going to "out" him.   He loves Ray.  He struggles with his desires.  So this is not a person who doesn't want to please God. 

Isaiah says:  I am the high and the lofty One, and I also dwell (eat and drink symbolically speaking) with the CONTRITE and LOWLY IN SPIRIT.   (those who are feeling SORROW FOR THEIR OWN SINS AND SHORTCOMINGS)

THOSE are the kinds of people Jesus ate and drank with, for those are clearly UNclear on the matter.

Imagine Jesus or Paul being invited to a gay wedding and as if that weren't strange enough, then imagine them contemplating whether or not they should attend it. 

Imagine Ray being invited to a gay wedding and attending.

So, tell me this:  When your friends want to marry more than one person, or their pet and they invite you, will you scratch your heads and ask, Gee, what would Jesus do?

Jesus doesn't love US the way we are.  He loves us from WHAT we are.  Only the devil loves you the way you are.  And if you're that worried about offending someone of that mindset and think, Well, if they invite me then I'll go because after all, I'm not supposed to judge them, then you are now guilty of loving mother, father, brother, sister, son / daughter and friends MORE than God and you cannot be His disciple.   

I'm not saying hate these people who do those things.   When Paul said, I don't judge those on the outside but on the inside, what he means is, he doesn't get ENTANGLED IN THE WORLD'S AFFAIRS.  That's what he was saying.  Why do you think he told the Corinthians to throw the man out who was sleeping with his father's wife?  Because he didn't want them being entangled with anyone who was obviously still entangled in sin.  Just throw him out.  Don't kill him, don't murder him, don't call the police, just throw him out till he's had his fill of "pleasure," and when he sees he's for himself that he's wallowing in sin like pig and wants to come back, then let him come back, and drop the matter. 

How do you separate yourself from those sins and then partake in the celebrating of them at the same time, huh?  Paul didn't say you couldn't eat with gays and lesbians, etc., etc., did he?  No, he didn't.   He said you couldn't eat with anyone who calls themselves a Christian and does those things. 

Now, how many gays and lesbians AFFIRM what they're doing and call themselves Christians?  Many.  (I'm not talking about the ones who are struggling and feeling contrite over their sins, believe me.  There is a difference.  And one gay/lesbian fleeting thought or fling does not a homosexual make, that's clear.)

We are all guilty as hell of ALL.  But don't let your guilty conscience weaken you to the point that you feel pity for these people and go party with them in their sin.  You may as well be going to celebrate a future train wreck!  And what will your response be to them when God touches their eyes and THEY SEE their own sin?  Will you say, Well, I was only trying to be nice.   No, you were trying to not offend them. 

Assuming your walk with Christ is so weak that you would be invited by gays and lesbians to celebrate their "marriage," all you have to say is:  OH, boy!  Look at the time.  I really have to be CLEAN MY SHOWER!

Or, I'M SORRY BUT I'VE BEEN INVITED TO ANOTHER WEDDING THAT DAY. 

Or, I'M SORRY BUT I HAVE TO GO SHOPPING THAT DAY.

If you are so WEAK in your faith that you feel you must GO BACK into the world to offer comfort to sinners who just LOVE to be comforted by you and to be told that what they're doing is not so bad, and that God loves them just the way they are, YOU misunderstand.

Paul said, that f-r-i-e-n-d-s-h-i-p  (he didn't say you couldn't eat a meal with or do business) with the world is emnity with God (that is deep seated hatred).  Remember, the Samaritan, as Ray aptly pointed out, took the man who was beat and robbed to a hospital and had THEM nurse the man back to health.  The Samaritan didn't nurse him back to health.  Doesn't say whether he became friends with him and started playing tennis with him or going to parties and all of that. 

You might think you're strong enough and holy and righteous enough to be able to withstand the attacks of the adversary, but  you don't even realize that the attacks from the adversary are coming at you wrapped up in a beautiful velvet rainbow colored glove, With "love."   

You're naive.   

When you up and go to a gay or lesbian wedding this is ultimately what you're affirming: 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/17/dear-gay-community-your-kids-are-hurting/

God bless you all.  I can't even believe that we have to have this discussion.  There should have been no question about this issue. 

Octoberose, thank you very much for your willingness to say what you said.  I know you didn't mean to come off rude, and from my standpoint, you did not.  We're in the same as you know.  My daughter informed me a year ago that she was going to marry her girlfriend since her own adoptive grandfather had instructed her throughout her life to "not date bozos," which, to her meant date girls.   

And for those who might misunderstand what I'm about personally:  Nobody's telling gays and lesbians that they must become attracted to and marry the opposite sex.   Nobody's telling you that that is what you must do.  I certainly am not.  But if the lifestyle were to be affirmed to the point of marriage, and if it doesn't harm anyone, then why oh why are so many doing Youtube videos about how they've abandoned their lifestyle and feeling sorrow for their choice, huh?  These are beautiful people whom God loves and these are those whom Isaiah said He dwells with.

God bless.  And please don't take offense at anything I've said here.  It's all the truth and you know it.

Beautiful Gina. A big hearty amen dear sister. I think that is the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2015, 03:41:22 PM
It seems to me that Jesus set the example for us to follow:

Luk 19:5  When Jesus came to that place, he looked up and said to Zacchaeus, "Hurry down, Zacchaeus, because I must stay in your house today."
Luk 19:6  Zacchaeus hurried down and welcomed him with great joy.
Luk 19:7  All the people who saw it started grumbling, "This man has gone as a guest to the home of a sinner!"

Luk 7:39  Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mat 11:19  The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

It seems pretty clear to me......

 your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.

God bless,
Alex



I disagree with that statement because one’s physical presences does not reveal the heart but one’s words does, from the abundance of the heart does the mouth speak.

One cannot possible know the motive of a persons heart because of their presence in any situation.

Lets try that out on Jesus, Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Jesus is present with publicans and sinners, what does that say about Jesus in the eyes of the Father ? You see what I mean Alex.

And by the way, Jesus is present at every gay marriage at every murder at every crime scene.

Rick,

You need to learn to read more carefully dear brother. Let's take a look at what I said again;

"So this is where I am at and I just don't see Jesus celebrating any sinful behavior, not even at the ceremony for the joining of two gay couples. Some people have stated they could attend a gay marriage without celebrating with those at the wedding but I suppose then it becomes a slippery slope. Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God."

"In the same way [As in what ray said about how marriage is one of the few things God admonishes us to observe PHYSICALLY]," "Your physical PRESENCE [AT THAT MARRIAGE]" says A LOT about what you think is OKAY [I.E. Acceptable behavior, such as the joining of two gay people at this wedding] in the eye's of God.

If you don't think ray said this about marriage then go back and listen to the audio on marriage. It was the whole reason he made such a point about the physical papers and ceremony taking place for a marriage to be valid in God's eyes. Its very much about the PHYSICAL as far as God and MARRIAGE are concerned.

In Christ,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 05, 2015, 03:47:31 PM
It looks to me as though we are reverting back to the ways of Sodom. And we will pay the price someday.

It certainly appears that way, it seems to me the whole world is upside down, I wonder just how bad things are going to get in these last days.

What I’m confused about is how do all the sins in this life make us in the image of God ? Sometimes I think most are being made in the image of Satan rather than God.
 
But having said that I must also say God created evil for the very purpose of making us in His image and that is a mystery to me. But I trust in Christ to see everyone through.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lauriellen on April 05, 2015, 04:03:13 PM
Just my opinion, but once you start making a 'sin' (attending a gay wedding) something that is not explicitly stated as a 'sin' in the bible, it is a slippery slope into all kinds of legalism....then, you could say that it is a 'sin' to attend a Christmas/easter/valentines/holloween  party because it would be celebrating something historically 'pagan' (an abomination)......then you could say it is a 'sin'  for women to wear makeup or jewelry because it 'celebrates' vanity (a sin)....smacks very much of how the WWCOG operated, even resorted to having members spy on each other and tattle on each other if they were caught wearing makeup in public or attending an event on the Sabbath. If God is ordering our steps (as I believe He is), we will be led to do or not do whatever He has already planned in each situation.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 05, 2015, 04:23:15 PM
I’m not really sure who is arguing what in this thread.

It seems like the consensus is it would be “unchristian” to attend a “gay wedding”.  That would be the  rational  viewpoint if so.  If there are any here actually arguing for the contrary opinion,  I don’t see it.  You certainly haven’t articulated it anyway.

It’s sort of a ridiculous discussion anyway, as others pointed out that any “hypothetical” invitation to a “gay wedding” would mean you, as a guest, must have absolutely no form of goldliness (else why would anyone think you’d WANT to attend such an event)? And if you have a moral objection to the sin of homosexuality and the belief that God established marriage--and only His definition is the True one—then why is it such a conundrum for you?  And if you don’t believe those two facts, why do you even bother calling yourself a follower of Christ?  Why are you even here?

Some may be confused though as to the actual nature of the question … allow me to divide the wheat from the chaff. 

Alex seems to be anti-attendance minded on the matter.  (As would I be—not that it matters).  But he is FOR “gay marriage rights”.  This is the real kernel of the discussion I think.  Because for one thing, there are no such things as “rights” at all.  What we have are STATUTES (arbitrarily) written by MEN, who have mostly no regard for God and His Laws.  Whether or not two people can call themselves by the name of a particular type of Union which GOD defined is one thing.  You can call yourself a baked potato and most people could care less.  But it is when the LAW (the human law under which we are bound by human rulers,  enforced by other humans who are armed and will inflict pain, loss or death for violating said laws) REQUIRES those of us who morally object, to nevertheless ACCEPT (and OBEY) these manmade statutes that we run into some serious problems.  If I must ACCEPT you as a baked potato, now I have issue.

But the kernel is far more rotted than that. It is one thing to revel in your sin. The whole world is awash in sin and wickedness.  It is another lower, darker level of malevolence to attempt to REDIFINE your sin as Not Sin.  And one notch below that is attempting to persuade others (children, feeble-minded, intellectually or morally lazy persons) that their EVIL is actually GOOD.  And that, in a nutshell, is the “culture” we find ourselves in today.

So homosexual behavior is NOT sin, and a “Union” between such people engaging in this is just as valid as your union as a husband and wife.  This is what we are told to accept.  This is what we DO accept when we do not OBJECT.

Ironically, someone posted a passage from an unknown (and I’d wager dubious) translation of Romans 14 as “Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right.”   No.  No, No, NO.  At least in the context of this discussion, this is exactly the WRONG thing.  Sinners who have “decided” that “gay love” is RIGHT and therefore have removed all guilt NOW decide that YOU MUST EMBRACE their decision. They, in fact, are the "blessed ones".

Don’t let that escape your knowledge.  That is the end game—to re-educate all of us backward-thinking people.  That is the prize.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: zvezda on April 05, 2015, 04:38:45 PM
Some people have stated they could attend a gay marriage without celebrating with those at the wedding but I suppose then it becomes a slippery slope.

I suppose you were referring to my posts. I said that because I once was invited to a baptism, every time the pastor finished baptising a member, the whole crowd would sing 'happy day... happy day..." I didn't sing with them or pray with them, when they were parying together, I said a different prayer in my heart instead. Only God knows my heart was not celebrating with them and actually I was crying inside seeing that they were still in babylon. With God's help, I was able to separate my heart/spirit from the celebration. It's just my personal experience.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 05, 2015, 04:42:29 PM
It seems to me that Jesus set the example for us to follow:

Luk 19:5  When Jesus came to that place, he looked up and said to Zacchaeus, "Hurry down, Zacchaeus, because I must stay in your house today."
Luk 19:6  Zacchaeus hurried down and welcomed him with great joy.
Luk 19:7  All the people who saw it started grumbling, "This man has gone as a guest to the home of a sinner!"

Luk 7:39  Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mat 11:19  The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

It seems pretty clear to me......

 your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.

God bless,
Alex



I disagree with that statement because one’s physical presences does not reveal the heart but one’s words does, from the abundance of the heart does the mouth speak.

One cannot possible know the motive of a persons heart because of their presence in any situation.

Lets try that out on Jesus, Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Jesus is present with publicans and sinners, what does that say about Jesus in the eyes of the Father ? You see what I mean Alex.

And by the way, Jesus is present at every gay marriage at every murder at every crime scene.

Rick,

You need to learn to read more carefully dear brother. Let's take a look at what I said again;

"So this is where I am at and I just don't see Jesus celebrating any sinful behavior, not even at the ceremony for the joining of two gay couples. Some people have stated they could attend a gay marriage without celebrating with those at the wedding but I suppose then it becomes a slippery slope. Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God."

"In the same way [As in what ray said about how marriage is one of the few things God admonishes us to observe PHYSICALLY]," "Your physical PRESENCE [AT THAT MARRIAGE]" says A LOT about what you think is OKAY [I.E. Acceptable behavior, such as the joining of two gay people at this wedding] in the eye's of God.

If you don't think ray said this about marriage then go back and listen to the audio on marriage. It was the whole reason he made such a point about the physical papers and ceremony taking place for a marriage to be valid in God's eyes. Its very much about the PHYSICAL as far as God and MARRIAGE are concerned.

In Christ,
Alex
Alex, I agree with you,  I certainly don’t see Jesus celebrating a gay marriage either.

The world is being condition to except all types of life styles by what is referred to as politically correct, if you say anything against homosexuals then that makes you a homophobe ,a bigot and a racist too and anything else they can paint you with...lol it’s the way of the world , the world God made and the evil He created to be in the world He made.

You said you are ok with gay marriage rights, that’s the politically right thing to say, yet you would feel uncomfortable catering a gay marriage, that is a contradiction.

I don’t believe in gay marriage rights and I don’t believe in gay marriage because of my belief in God, its wrong just like stealing is wrong or murder is wrong, but I don’t look at gay people as if they are monsters either, they are human beings just like me.

However if I were a florist I would not have an issue with catering a gay marriage however if I see guys kissing each other I would have an issue with that and not complete my job there.

If I were invited to a gay marriage I would say no thank you, I would not participate in what I believe is the wrong thing to do and yet I participate every day in wrong doing, its called personal sins, I know there is a time set aside where I will have to answer for my sinfulness.

 
Someone just did a tread about three guys getting married , there is no end to the sinfulness of people until Christ returns yet Paul the apostle said he was the worst sinner on earth, are these gay people worst than Paul ? Not according to Paul their not.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
Just my opinion, but once you start making a 'sin' (attending a gay wedding) something that is not explicitly stated as a 'sin' in the bible, it is a slippery slope into all kinds of legalism....then, you could say that it is a 'sin' to attend a Christmas/easter/valentines/holloween  party because it would be celebrating something historically 'pagan' (an abomination)......then you could say it is a 'sin'  for women to wear makeup or jewelry because it 'celebrates' vanity (a sin)....smacks very much of how the WWCOG operated, even resorted to having members spy on each other and tattle on each other if they were caught wearing makeup in public or attending an event on the Sabbath. If God is ordering our steps (as I believe He is), we will be led to do or not do whatever He has already planned in each situation.

Well, we're not in the WWCOG anymore, are we. 

What you're doing is comparing apples and oranges because you have not even begun to heal from the hurt of what you experienced in that church by those who used you miserably and took advantage of the unsuspecting.

Celebrating your Lord and Savior on Passover and calling it "Easter," and wearing makeup to cover up skin imperfections or to make your lashes stand out or to thin out or fill in your eye brows is a far cry from celebrating sexual sin and walking down the street dressed up like a Vegas Show Girl for the express purpose of drawing attention to yourself for whatever reason.

This post isn't about those things.  But since you asked, if the house needs paintin', paint it.  :)

And it seems to me if you can overlook gays and lesbian marriage to the point that you would celebrate it.  You would be willing to at least consider forgiving Herbert W. Armstrong and his ilk for their sins. 

But what you're saying is:  if Armstrong wanted to marry his daughter (!)  or Garner his many (200) women, you would have no problem witnessing that.  That's really what you're saying, because anything else would be "legalism," and what?  God doesn't abide by a system of laws?  God doesn't operate by the counsel of his own will?  As if to say that even God isn't BOUND by and operates according to w-i-s-d-o-m?

Do you condone the sexual sin of MISUSE of others on one level simply because it's being committed by people you like?  But then turn around and totally condemn it on another simply because it's being committed by people who have misused you?

Laurie, you're a very tenderhearted person, and I know you have had a difficult life , and I don't want to come down on you too hard, but let's judge rightly and not by appearance. 

So someone you like and treats you well, sins sexually, so you're going to relax your standards, whereas someone you thought you could trust spies on how much makeup you're wearing and you pull rank and say it's wrong?  What do we have here?  A double standard?

You can be sure that anyone who is doing their best to follow Jesus by remembering Him though they might flub up and call Passover by another "pagan" name, is not someone who is blatantly despising the word of God.  It's not the same thing, Laurie.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 05, 2015, 05:18:02 PM

  I am not upbraiding nonbelievers - I'm upbraiding you.

Its amazing how we all come here to B.T. knowing something is just not right with what we were being taught by Christendom, we all came here with our false doctrine and preconceived ideas of what should or shouldn’t be.

Then we start to learn the real truth and the real truth upbraids us .  :)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lauriellen on April 05, 2015, 05:31:59 PM
Gina, you don't know what is in my heart. Only God does. I have not said that I would attend a gay wedding or not, but you can bet I won't be asking your permission if the invitation comes. I have one God and He will lead me to attend or not according to His purpose for MY life....it is not my place to judge what He does in your life.....that is between you and Him.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2015, 05:48:01 PM
Dear zveda,

I was not refering to you when I made that statement. In fact, the person I had in mind I don't believe actually even said that so no need to worry. I hope the point I was making that followed that statement though is not lost on that account.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 06:01:05 PM
Gina, you don't know what is in my heart. Only God does. I have not said that I would attend a gay wedding or not, but you can bet I won't be asking your permission if the invitation comes. I have one God and He will lead me to attend or not according to His purpose for MY life....it is not my place to judge what He does in your life.....that is between you and Him.

If a person is sinning willfully and without a struggle then God hasn't begun a work in that person.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 05, 2015, 06:51:47 PM
You assume there is no struggle, Gina.  That's wrong.

Some seem very sure of what Jesus would have hypothetically done.  You may well be right.  Me?  I'm a little less sure.  Or of what He would have done and said instead (or maybe when He got there).  I do see what He DID do, however  He said things that only His disciples understood, and even then only after He explained them...and even then often only after they gained some experience of His Spirit.

Since we're quoting scripture here (and at least sometimes with the assumption that they contradict), here's MAYBE a relevant passage (with two undeniable witnesses):

Luk 7:31  And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
Luk 7:32  They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
Luk 7:33  For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34  The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35  But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Mat 11:16  "But to what shall I compare the present generation? It is like children sitting in the open places, who call to their playmates.
Mat 11:17  "'We have played the flute to you,' they say, 'and you have not danced: we have sung dirges, and you have not beaten your breasts.'
Mat 11:18  "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
Mat 11:19  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they exclaim, 'See this man! --given to gluttony and tippling, and a friend of tax-gatherers and notorious sinners!' And yet Wisdom is vindicated by her actions."

I also can't forget what He did do...not hypothetically (or even symbolically) but REALLY.  While we were yet sinners, He died for us.  And unless the Calvinists are right, He died for all of us, not just those to whom He gives faith to believe.

More power to you if you can create a law which automatically and without any further thought forbids you to hypothetically go to a "gay wedding".  I'm not going to pipe and expect you to dance.  And lest you think I also don't know that "they" are expecting the same thing, I do know that.  But in all likelihood (I can only state the obvious here) I'm not talking to them but to "us".  That's where Judgement begins, or we miss the point of the Sermon on the Mount.

I didn't leave the church because I thought they were a pack of hypocrites...though some clearly were.  Most were far more 'morally upright' than I could manage.  I 'left' because their so-called 'gospel' didn't sound like such good news any more, to a sinner.  Maybe we (I) should spend some times considering what our 'message' IS to sinners...and apply it to ourselves first.  They gave the likes of me no hope.  From their perspective under the law, they were right.  It wasn't that their message was "wrong". it was (simply and flatly put) worthless.

Maybe it isn't 'worthless' to everybody.  Lots of people have better lives because of their 'faith'.  But some of us didn't.             
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dennis Vogel on April 05, 2015, 07:31:52 PM
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it:" Potter Stewart
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 07:41:48 PM
You assume there is no struggle, Gina.  That's wrong.

Some seem very sure of what Jesus would have hypothetically done.  You may well be right.  Me?  I'm a little less sure.  Or of what He would have done and said instead (or maybe when He got there).  I do see what He DID do, however  He said things that only His disciples understood, and even then only after He explained them...and even then often only after they gained some experience of His Spirit.

Since we're quoting scripture here (and at least sometimes with the assumption that they contradict), here's MAYBE a relevant passage (with two undeniable witnesses):

Luk 7:31  And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
Luk 7:32  They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
Luk 7:33  For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34  The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35  But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Mat 11:16  "But to what shall I compare the present generation? It is like children sitting in the open places, who call to their playmates.
Mat 11:17  "'We have played the flute to you,' they say, 'and you have not danced: we have sung dirges, and you have not beaten your breasts.'
Mat 11:18  "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
Mat 11:19  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they exclaim, 'See this man! --given to gluttony and tippling, and a friend of tax-gatherers and notorious sinners!' And yet Wisdom is vindicated by her actions."

I also can't forget what He did do...not hypothetically (or even symbolically) but REALLY.  While we were yet sinners, He died for us.  And unless the Calvinists are right, He died for all of us, not just those to whom He gives faith to believe.

More power to you if you can create a law which automatically and without any further thought forbids you to hypothetically go to a "gay wedding".  I'm not going to pipe and expect you to dance.  And lest you think I also don't know that "they" are expecting the same thing, I do know that.  But in all likelihood (I can only state the obvious here) I'm not talking to them but to "us".  That's where Judgement begins, or we miss the point of the Sermon on the Mount.

I didn't leave the church because I thought they were a pack of hypocrites...though some clearly were.  Most were far more 'morally upright' than I could manage.  I 'left' because their so-called 'gospel' didn't sound like such good news any more, to a sinner.  Maybe we (I) should spend some times considering what our 'message' IS to sinners...and apply it to ourselves first.  They gave the likes of me no hope.  From their perspective under the law, they were right.  It wasn't that their message was "wrong". it was (simply and flatly put) worthless.

Maybe it isn't 'worthless' to everybody.  Lots of people have better lives because of their 'faith'.  But some of us didn't.             

No, I don't assume they aren't struggling.  That is not what I said.

You assume I assume there is no struggle.  Maybe my words struck a chord in you and you were offended.

Carry on.......
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 07:48:25 PM
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it:" Potter Stewart

That's right.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: zvezda on April 05, 2015, 07:51:56 PM
I was not refering to you when I made that statement. In fact, the person I had in mind I don't believe actually even said that so no need to worry. I hope the point I was making that followed that statement though is not lost on that account.
Thanks for clarifying, Alex  :)
As for the point you were making followed that statement
Quote
Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.
I agree with what Ray said that marriage is more physical than spiritual, from a scriptural point of view. But I don't agree with what you said "In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God." It's not the same way in God's eyes, God doesn't look on the physical appearance, men do. Even when people attend a regular wedding, they go there for various reasons, it doesn't automatically say they are okay with this marriage. Maybe some of the wedding attendants think the groom won't make a good husband, or some think the bride marries him for his money, whatever. You just don't know what go through people's minds by their physical presence. Most importantly: For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 08:08:35 PM
I was not refering to you when I made that statement. In fact, the person I had in mind I don't believe actually even said that so no need to worry. I hope the point I was making that followed that statement though is not lost on that account.
Thanks for clarifying, Alex  :)
As for the point you were making followed that statement
Quote
Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.
I agree with what Ray said that marriage is more physical than spiritual, from a scriptural point of view. But I don't agree with what you said "In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God." It's not the same way in God's eyes, God doesn't look on the physical appearance, men do. Even when people attend a regular wedding, they go there for various reasons, it doesn't automatically say they are okay with this marriage. Maybe some of the wedding attendants think the groom won't make a good husband, or some think the bride marries him for his money, whatever. You just don't know what go through people's minds by their physical presence. Most importantly: For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)

That verse about God looking on the heart and not the outward appearance is so badly misunderstood and interpreted.

But what does this mean:


Abstain from all appearance of evil.  ( 1 Thess. 5:22 ) 

It's one thing to attend a wedding and assume in the back of your mind that the groom or the bride won't make a good wife.  That's really not the same thing as attending a gay wedding KNOWING that God condemns it and it WILL, and I don't mean maybe, end up badly.   And why would you do this?  Because you're too AFRAID you'll hurt your friends' feelings?  Yes.

I'm telling you, friendship with the world is emnity with God.  Nobody's saying to hate these people, but if you're going to a gay wedding and pretending you're not thinking what you're really thinking deep down in your heart, let me be the first to inform you:  you have way bigger problems than just sitting inside a wedding chapel attending a gay wedding.  And you can take that to the bank.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: zvezda on April 05, 2015, 08:21:20 PM
Gina, looks like you know what's deep down in my heart (and Laurie's and Dave's) more than God. whatever...  :o
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 08:24:47 PM
Matthew 24

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

I believe that the love that Jesus is talking about growing cold is assuredly NOT their love for the world, but their love of God.  They will be lovers of self, and lawlessness, and betray one another.  There is no love in the world, for heaven's sake.  We're talking about people who started out following the Lord but their love of God grows cold.   People who love God don't hate one another, but people whose love for God grows cold, DO hate God and His ways and they wind up betraying one another with verses and scripture that they say means one thing when it really means another.   They've turned away from the truth.   Not judging, I'm just stating facts here.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 08:30:21 PM
Gina, looks like you know what's deep down in my heart (and Laurie's and Dave's) more than God. whatever...  :o

As I see I judge.  I can of my own self do nothing.

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.  For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.   Luke 6:45

I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings that I can see things that are hidden in broad daylight, z.  God knows I don't hate any of you.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 05, 2015, 08:58:45 PM
Gina, since you quoted lauriellen in your post, I assumed (wrongly?...don't know) you were speaking to/about her.  To assume one who would hypothecially consider hypothetically attend a "gay wedding" is not struggling with that decision is wrong...or certainly MAY be wrong.  After all there have been statements in this thread that 'assume' anybody who would dare make such a decision is just "up and going" like it was just another Tuesday and there was nothing good on TV.

Ignore the rest of my post, if you need to.  That's just the tip of the iceberg of this "struggle".  I don't know how always to live in this world without being OF it.  Neither do you.  I assure you there are "prophets of God" who would condemn every moment of your life, every thought in your head, and every belief you hold.  They would send you to hell themselves and laugh while doing it.  If I "judge" you as one of "this generation" who complains that us pesky other people are just not doing right, then understand of my own self I can do nothing as well. 

 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2015, 09:02:10 PM
I was not refering to you when I made that statement. In fact, the person I had in mind I don't believe actually even said that so no need to worry. I hope the point I was making that followed that statement though is not lost on that account.
Thanks for clarifying, Alex  :)
As for the point you were making followed that statement
Quote
Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.
I agree with what Ray said that marriage is more physical than spiritual, from a scriptural point of view. But I don't agree with what you said "In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God." It's not the same way in God's eyes, God doesn't look on the physical appearance, men do. Even when people attend a regular wedding, they go there for various reasons, it doesn't automatically say they are okay with this marriage. Maybe some of the wedding attendants think the groom won't make a good husband, or some think the bride marries him for his money, whatever. You just don't know what go through people's minds by their physical presence. Most importantly: For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)

Hi again Zvezda,

MARRIAGE is ALL ABOUT THE PHYSICAL. It is maybe the ONE THING God only accepts IF you PHYSICALLY do what is required of you. Physically have a ceremony and physically exchange vows. You can't SPIRITUALLY MARRY your partner or SPIRITUALLY DIVORCE them when things go bad. Its all nonsense. Ray made a very strong case for this. So yes, in this regard, it is about the physical appearance. Being PHYSICALLY PRESENT in the case of marriage is very much a big deal because in the eyes of God marriage only counts if its done PHYSICALLY.

While I fully agree that God judges the matters of the heart, you have to remember that it is the SUM of God's word that is truth and that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. You can't just quote one verse and say that's it, i'm ignoring everything else I know God to have said.

I will say nothing more on this subject. I think we have exhausted what is profitable in it and I pray that everyone has benefited from it. I know I have. It has driven me to search deeper into what I believe and caused me to really evaluate myself. We are to voluntarily judge ourselves now in Gehenna fire or have our whole bodies thrown into the lake of fire at the resurrection. Let everyone be fully convinced because God is the only judge whose worthy of our obedience and reverence. We ought always to obey God rather than man.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 05, 2015, 09:18:24 PM
Gina, since you quoted lauriellen in your post, I assumed (wrongly?...don't know) you were speaking to/about her.  To assume one who would hypothecially consider hypothetically attend a "gay wedding" is not struggling with that decision is wrong...or certainly MAY be wrong.  After all there have been statements in this thread that 'assume' anybody who would dare make such a decision is just "up and going" like it was just another Tuesday and there was nothing good on TV.

Ignore the rest of my post, if you need to.  That's just the tip of the iceberg of this "struggle".  I don't know how always to live in this world without being OF it.  Neither do you.  I assure you there are "prophets of God" who would condemn every moment of your life.  If I "judge" you as one of "this generation" who complains that us pesky other people are just not doing right, then understand of my own self I can do nothing as well.

Dave, you know where to draw the line in this forum, but you don't know that attending a gay wedding is condoning gay marriage, something God detests?

Again, I'm not saying we're to hate these people, insult them, boycott, whatever.  But did you not read the link I posted where the young woman was raised by lesbians and felt cheated out of a father because men were not welcomed and she herself opposes gay marriage and wrote a letter, and OPEN letter, upbraiding her mother and her lesbian mother's wife?

And you're going to tell me that after reading that letter that it didn't affect you in any way? 

Do you not know that if you were to support gays and lesbians in marriage and their relationships by attending and affirming their marriage that you would be HURTING them further and denying them? 

Do you seriously expect me to believe that you can moderate this forum one day and attend a gay wedding the next without even a twinge of guilt? 

Do you not understand with the wisdom that you've been given here by Ray and by God that you would not be helping the gays and lesbians AT ALL if you did that?  On the contrary, you would be HURTING them because you would be entering in to a LIE with THEM.

Whatever I may do or have done that I should be judged for is a red herring.  Is that what this topic is  about?  Nice try though!   

If the things I say offends you, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 05, 2015, 09:58:28 PM
Great thread Alex, I think we all learned something about ourselves as well as others through this thread you started.  ;D

Perhaps the parable of Jesus might shine through to our reasoning as a result of this thread when Christ said ( take the log out of your own eye first before removing the speck in your brothers eye. )

Who was that cartoon character that said ( oh, what a terrible web we weave for ourselves ) how true that statement is, I thank God through Jesus that He will one day undo that terrible web that each and everyone of us weaves in our everyday life.

God Bless you all and in dealing with anyone be it gay people or not let us never forget the tender mercies God has show us and pass the love on.  :)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 05, 2015, 11:25:37 PM
Look, if Alex is allowed his fantasy about a hypothetical opportunity to attend a "gay wedding" then I am also.  No, I have already said (in so many words) that I don't necessarily see a 1:1 correlation between attending an event and condoning an entire lifestyle.  I'm just not that important.  And I don't place the emphasis on 'symbolism' or 'appearances' that some seem to.  I leave the 'demonstrations' to the Westboro Baptist Church folk.  If you have a different message (and I know you do) deliver it...but in person and not to the choir. 

My apologies to all the mothers of the brides who have worked and spent to assume me to be a part of the ceremony.  I didn't 'think' or 'feel' the way they wanted me too, I guess.  They wasted their money and labor on me, at any rate.  I hope SOMEBODY felt and thought 'right'.

Jesus left genuine glory to come and die as a man...and not just any old death.  If I'm to follow Him, SOMETIMES, I might have to leave my illusory high-horse and minister to sinners.  God has THEM where He wants them, too...with an eye towards what is NOT YET, as though it were.  Yes, I know what's next--but DAVE, attending the wedding is not 'ministering', it's endorsing!  Maybe yes...maybe no.  That's for me to decide when and if a decision needs to be made.  All my plans are folly, anyway.  I'll do what He says I will do.  And so will you.  And then our works are judged, whether they be good works or bad works.  Wisdom is justified of her children.  Good is refined...bad is removed.

I'll tack this on.  Thirty or forty years ago, the "gay lifestyle" was often marked by anonymous sex with multiple partners.  To many, that's what being "gay" meant...even among gays.  Then came HIV and a massive rethinking.  These days, the visible 'gay agenda' is seeking the right to be married.  Wow. 

Wood and Hay are better than stubble, even though they all burn.  What does that tell me (besides this world really IS upside-down)?  It tells me God is able to judge the world rightly even in this wicked age.  That builds my faith for a future when He reigns.

And then this:  I have never claimed to be 'worthy' of helping to moderate this web-forum.  Indeed, I started out my time at it confessing my unworthiness.  My opinion hasn't changed.  I serve at Dennis' pleasure...you know, the Dennis who said you posted wise words.  We'll straighten this out, me and him.       

       
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lauriellen on April 06, 2015, 12:14:38 AM
Dave, you are doing a great job and I highly respect your opinion. Your Godly wisdom & humble spirit are very evident in your words and I appreciate the job you are doing.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 06, 2015, 01:50:11 AM
Look, if Alex is allowed his fantasy about a hypothetical opportunity to attend a "gay wedding" then I am also.  No, I have already said (in so many words) that I don't necessarily see a 1:1 correlation between attending an event and condoning an entire lifestyle.  I'm just not that important.  And I don't place the emphasis on 'symbolism' or 'appearances' that some seem to.  I leave the 'demonstrations' to the Westboro Baptist Church folk.  If you have a different message (and I know you do) deliver it...but in person and not to the choir. 

My apologies to all the mothers of the brides who have worked and spent to assume me to be a part of the ceremony.  I didn't 'think' or 'feel' the way they wanted me too, I guess.  They wasted their money and labor on me, at any rate.  I hope SOMEBODY felt and thought 'right'.

Jesus left genuine glory to come and die as a man...and not just any old death.  If I'm to follow Him, SOMETIMES, I might have to leave my illusory high-horse and minister to sinners.  God has THEM where He wants them, too...with an eye towards what is NOT YET, as though it were.  Yes, I know what's next--but DAVE, attending the wedding is not 'ministering', it's endorsing!  Maybe yes...maybe no.  That's for me to decide when and if a decision needs to be made.  All my plans are folly, anyway.  I'll do what He says I will do.  And so will you.  And then our works are judged, whether they be good works or bad works.  Wisdom is justified of her children.  Good is refined...bad is removed.

I'll tack this on.  Thirty or forty years ago, the "gay lifestyle" was often marked by anonymous sex with multiple partners.  To many, that's what being "gay" meant...even among gays.  Then came HIV and a massive rethinking.  These days, the visible 'gay agenda' is seeking the right to be married.  Wow. 

Wood and Hay are better than stubble, even though they all burn.  What does that tell me (besides this world really IS upside-down)?  It tells me God is able to judge the world rightly even in this wicked age.  That builds my faith for a future when He reigns.

And then this:  I have never claimed to be 'worthy' of helping to moderate this web-forum.  Indeed, I started out my time at it confessing my unworthiness.  My opinion hasn't changed.  I serve at Dennis' pleasure...you know, the Dennis who said you posted wise words.  We'll straighten this out, me and him.       

     

Dave,

I appreciate that you care about the homosexual community but ministering to them and attending weddings are two entirely different things.  I wouldn't condemn someone who attended a wedding, but please, please, leave Westboro Baptist Church out of this.  You seem to be so worried that you're going to offend a group of people going in the wrong direction, that you'd turn on those who stand up for what they know is right.  No one here is saying to picket them.  Give me a break. 

But if gays are struggling with their sin, why would you think it okay to be in fellowship with them in that way, even if all this is hypothetical?  Aren't you sending them mixed messages?  I think it's admirable that you care, but I just think when you care so much that you can't say no, gracefully, to a wedding invitation, well, you know what I mean.

I'll leave it at this and go on my way.  This man ministers to the gay community.  Maybe it will be of some help: 

https://youtu.be/EahmmQzZWXA  (Part 1)

https://youtu.be/WtbI5YH34-0 (Part 2)


(I realize that minister does believe in "free-will" and that there is a "hell," but he's where God has him at  present, as you say, and he obviously has compassion, even if he is a little off track in regards to those two things.  If you could possibly overlook that for the sake of this thread, I'd appreciate it.   Thanks.  Goodnight all. :) )



Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Mike Gagne on April 06, 2015, 01:59:39 AM
Look, if Alex is allowed his fantasy about a hypothetical opportunity to attend a "gay wedding" then I am also.  No, I have already said (in so many words) that I don't necessarily see a 1:1 correlation between attending an event and condoning an entire lifestyle.  I'm just not that important.  And I don't place the emphasis on 'symbolism' or 'appearances' that some seem to.  I leave the 'demonstrations' to the Westboro Baptist Church folk.  If you have a different message (and I know you do) deliver it...but in person and not to the choir. 

My apologies to all the mothers of the brides who have worked and spent to assume me to be a part of the ceremony.  I didn't 'think' or 'feel' the way they wanted me too, I guess.  They wasted their money and labor on me, at any rate.  I hope SOMEBODY felt and thought 'right'.

Jesus left genuine glory to come and die as a man...and not just any old death.  If I'm to follow Him, SOMETIMES, I might have to leave my illusory high-horse and minister to sinners.  God has THEM where He wants them, too...with an eye towards what is NOT YET, as though it were.  Yes, I know what's next--but DAVE, attending the wedding is not 'ministering', it's endorsing!  Maybe yes...maybe no.  That's for me to decide when and if a decision needs to be made.  All my plans are folly, anyway.  I'll do what He says I will do.  And so will you.  And then our works are judged, whether they be good works or bad works.  Wisdom is justified of her children.  Good is refined...bad is removed.

I'll tack this on.  Thirty or forty years ago, the "gay lifestyle" was often marked by anonymous sex with multiple partners.  To many, that's what being "gay" meant...even among gays.  Then came HIV and a massive rethinking.  These days, the visible 'gay agenda' is seeking the right to be married.  Wow. 

Wood and Hay are better than stubble, even though they all burn.  What does that tell me (besides this world really IS upside-down)?  It tells me God is able to judge the world rightly even in this wicked age.  That builds my faith for a future when He reigns.

And then this:  I have never claimed to be 'worthy' of helping to moderate this web-forum.  Indeed, I started out my time at it confessing my unworthiness.  My opinion hasn't changed.  I serve at Dennis' pleasure...you know, the Dennis who said you posted wise words.  We'll straighten this out, me and him.       

       

Well said Dave, I agree totally with your comment... When the time comes the wood ,hay and stubble will be burned away and the gold and silver will be made more pure! Thats just the way it will be... 

R.P.J
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 06, 2015, 03:46:21 AM
I have spent the weekend taking care of my 14 mo. old twin grandsons while my daughter and SIL have a weekend together and  am flying home in the early morning. In between watching the boys I've been reading, writing and thinking about this post.
As you know this is not much of a hypothetical for me. Please know, I love my son just the way he is right now. I'm not waiting for something to change to fully love him as a mother should. We are still supporting him financially ( probably more then we should) but since we finished paying tuition he has stopped communicating with us. It's breaking my heart- I write him and send him things but for the first time in his life he's completely silent. 
 The young men I have  known who are Christ followers and homosexual in their past relationships- one on this forum and one on another- have been kind, thoughtful, and very
considerate to me because of my son and my sadness. I realized that it wasn't that I wanted Nathan to stop being 'gay', its that I hoped that he  would know Christ  the way these brothers do. I only know a little about their current struggle but I know they do struggle and I know they love the Lord and have shown great maturity.  They really have to hunger for the bread of life and not what the world tells them they can have,  and I have seen that in them.  I truly believe God will reward them greatly for seeking Him and denying self.
 What struck a chord with me is that the days before Alex posted I told God I was betting everything on Him and what I believe He requires. Because you see, if I called up Nathan and said, " your dad and I have had a change of heart and we now believe who you want to be with is just fine with us and we are sorry for expressing anything other than full acceptance in your lifestyle" - well, if we did that I'm pretty sure he would be back in our lives pretty quickly. But I cannot do that because my child is not my God, my God is my God. If I could believe any other way I would do it, but I cannot. ( Do not misunderstand me- our door has always been open to him )
Gina, I was hoping you would weigh in. You stated what we both believe with incredible  thoughtfulness and wisdom and I am very grateful.  One day we shall be restored with our children fully and He will be all in all. That is the best news I can possibly imagine. They will be healed of their afflictions and we shall be healed of ours. What a glory day that will truly be!
 I don't know what else to say other than this forum is important to me. I came here over 5 years ago not knowing anything. You taught me everything . Ray listened to me despite my pretty foolish questions. My life was utterly changed because some of you took the time and all the effort to tell the true gospel of Christ. And that has made all the difference.
 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: santgem on April 06, 2015, 04:25:44 AM
sometimes we need to understand all the context of the Chapters and not to chop-chop it and give another meanings.


When reading Scriptures you have to digest the totality of the thought, getting one line does not explain the whole chapter. That's  what i learned  and i thank Ray for that.

Suppose i get the line "If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning"

Then it will suggest that if you attend gay wedding and you know that is not right then you sinned;

Or, if you are believers of Christ and you know that marrying same sex is not right and still you do it then again you sinned.



What i am saying is that the verse below when taken chop-chop will contradict each.

"Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right"

VS

If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning


Please read the essence of this Chapter, there are hidden meanings on this chapter not only eating and drinking..........For those offended my apologies.

For clarification only.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: whyte baer on April 06, 2015, 05:47:15 AM
I have been reading BT since around 2001. I have had a lot of old doctrine that I once believed go to the wayside.
I started writing a book about how everyone should not make assumptions, but I erased it. If I sound a little angry or sarcastic, I sincerely apologise. I am not trying to make waves, but just give you a different angle from someone who is on both sides of this ....So here are my questions about going to a "gay marriage":

1. How about if it was someone who was divorced? ( not 'biblical')
        Divorced two or three times?
2. How about if it was a couple who had "lived together" before they go married?
3. How about the guy is 55 and the girl is 21?

4. Why do people assume that all gay people are like those idiots on the street during their parades?
5. Why do people assume all gays are just doing it for sex? (Sex has as much importance in a gay relationship as a straight one. You know,"wow!" at first, then "mmm, let's wait until next weekend",
  then, "has it really been 2 months?"
6. Why is it assumed all gays are heathens that need to be changed?
7. Do you think all gay people approve of "gay marriage"?
8. Do you believe "God hates fags"?

The reality of the average God believing 'gay' person is that they spend most of their lives having to hide the truth from everyone they love, and hate and loath themselves for something they sincerely want to NOT BE, but after a few years comes the sad realization that it's not going to go away.
They want to be normal so badly, they marry the opposite sex to keep everyone from knowing their secret.
They then have a few kids, then realize they can't hide how they are inside.Then the destruction  begins...
Some kill themselves because they can't deal with their parents, or spouses, or believe that God cares at all.

Why do I know this?
I have spent 20 years of my life trying to be straight. I prayed, I went to counseling (Christian and secular)
 prayed on my knees and on my face for HOURS.
Acts 2:1
If we can't fellowship with believers, where do we go?

I sincerely love you all.
Nita, aka whyte baer


P.s. No pagan holidays celebrated here....

Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 06, 2015, 10:04:24 AM
You know, Nita, all of us "need to be changed" not just homosexuals.  But a large force in that "change" is in first acknowledging things for what they are.  Sin must first be called sin before it can be dealt with (remember the purpose of the Law? "that I would not have known sin..")

There are no such things as "gays".  There are only people--all born sinners (all of us)--who have different propensities for sin.  Your 'unnatural desire' becomes sin when acted upon.  As Jesus said, you can even "lust in your heart".  That too is sin.  But acting on it is worse. Because now you've entangled your OWN body, and another's in sin which will cause a permanent human malfunction (in this life). 

A lot of our cultural problems (which obviously stain us believers) result from people refusing to call things what they are.  This is an especially acute sickness in the U.S.  We're all too busy trying to excuse our individual and collective sins to see where God may be pointing a way out.  There will be a consequence for this.  It will not be pleasant.  You may continue to struggle with the sin of homosexual thoughts and behaviors, but you will never be free of them until you first learn to hate the sin... (Ray said that).  And calling it what it is is the first step.  It is not "gayness" (a perfectly good word which has been permanently corrupted), it is sin.  The behavior that results--homosexual fornication--is particularly loathsome.  That is why so many homosexuals loathe themselves.

God can and will give us ALL repentance, AND cleansing, in due time.  But the process will always be the same...acknowledgement of sin, a loathing of the sin, and then freedom from and cleansing of. SO many are still stuck in the acknowledgement phase that all of society is now lost in a negative feedback loop---circling the drain...awaiting God's judgement to fall.  And all the while calling it a "blessing".

That is the essence of the problem of "gay marriage".  True followers of Christ should be the first to stand up and say, "it is sin, and we will have no part of it".  Instead, most excuse it with "judge not!" as a cover for their own guilt in not first judging ourselves.

No, Nita, God does not "hate fags".  But "fags" will not be in the Kingdom of God.  Neither will "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, [who] shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."  (Rev 21:eight). 

I may be among those "outside the gates" in the Lake of Fire, if that is God's intent, but at least I will understand why I am there.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Mike Gagne on April 06, 2015, 11:07:53 AM
What if ? what if?  This whole post is based on foolishness, on some assumption. Its not about them being gay or there sin. Its about your lake of fire, its about crucifying yourself. Does it matter if their gay? You are surrounded by sinners, murders and you probably have friends who are legally married and one of that couple could be having a gay relationship on the side, would you know?  Should you just hide in your home and lock the doors? Good luck with that. I thought you all read LRays sites? If so look in your heart and pray to God to kill of the carnal man in you and burn out all the junk in your heart so when the time comes you will be able to judge right. What I see in this post is babylon. Its very disappointing to see those who think they are the elect to discuss four pages on WHAT IFS.....  Where is the wisdom in that?

Have a wonderful day....  R.P.J
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 06, 2015, 12:15:22 PM
What if ? what if?  This whole post is based on foolishness, on some assumption. Its not about them being gay or there sin. Its about your lake of fire, its about crucifying yourself. Does it matter if their gay? You are surrounded by sinners, murders and you probably have friends who are legally married and one of that couple could be having a gay relationship on the side, would you know?  Should you just hide in your home and lock the doors? Good luck with that. I thought you all read LRays sites? If so look in your heart and pray to God to kill of the carnal man in you and burn out all the junk in your heart so when the time comes you will be able to judge right. What I see in this post is babylon. Its very disappointing to see those who think they are the elect to discuss four pages on WHAT IFS.....  Where is the wisdom in that?

Have a wonderful day....  R.P.J

Michael,

I see the hand of God in this thread in certain places.  You  meant to tell me that you don't see the hand of God in this thread, Michael?  Have another look, and don't be too quick to judge.  Don't mistake Bible-truths for Westboro Baptist Church, the way some have done for fear that they're going to offend someone who is struggling as if that someone is going to go off and kill themselves.  Trust me!  They are already killing themselves.    But you think that when Jesus drove the demons out of people, He whispered softly in their ear as He knelt down on one knee with eyes of blue peering ever so gently into the possessed.   If you think that's how Jesus worked to rid people of their demons, then why are you speaking to people in the manner you are here? It looks to me like you'd rather hide yourself from the "shame" of this discussion.  Maybe it's you who needs to burn the carnality out of your heart.  Nobody here is hiding themselves because someone is overtaken by a guilty conscience put on them by people who can't control their own desires.  And nobody is going to go out and murder anyone for those desires.  Just cool your jets.  If it makes you feel better, I live next door to a registered sex offender, and for all I know, he was wrongfully accused.  I don't lock my door.  I pray for him.  I know he's had a hard life and paid for his crime over and over and over again.  A harder life than a lot of gays.  So don't accuse me of being hardhearted.  You won't find many gays not being able to land a job or find a place to live, or have the cops come to their door to make sure they aren't breaking some law.  So just back off, Michael, because nobody here has said that God hates fags.  Okay?

Thanks
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lauriellen on April 06, 2015, 12:45:52 PM
There is nothing I detest more than arrogance and self=righteousness as if some of us here are so smart and strong and were able to acknowledge and repent of our sins all on our own.....have we forgotten that it is GOD Himself who binds people in sin, who blinds them to the truth and does NOT give a person a heart or strength to repent  UNTIL the appointed time? God must have a purpose for the existence of gays or they would have already repented! I do believe the act is a sin BECAUSE there are very specific scriptures that state that it is, however, I see no such scripture stating that ATTENDING a wedding ceremony for ANY sinner is a sin. God may have a specific reason for one to attend, such as He may have a person that He wants you to witness to that may also be attending. Who knows what God is doing? There is enough pain, exclusion and oppression in this world without adding to it. I for one will do my best, as God directs me and enables me, to be a light and shine the love of God, AS Christ was our example. Jesus did not just HAPPEN to bump into sinners....it is clear to ME that He actively SOUGHT THEM OUT, so I am assuming that He would have to GO where they were. You don't light a lamp and hide it UNDER a blanket.....Jesus prayed that His elect would NOT be taken out of this world. He said they would be the SALT AND LIGHT of the world.....not withdraw themselves completely......There are so many examples in the bible of people God sent right into the midst of sinful society for a purpose. Do we think God's arm is so short that He can not keep His elect from stumbling in the midst of a sinful society? Jesus was humble in spirit, full of compassion and MOST of His wrath seemed to me to be directed at RELIGIOUS HYPOCRITES, not sinners.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 06, 2015, 01:08:09 PM
There is nothing I detest more than arrogance and self=righteousness as if some of us here are so smart and strong and were able to acknowledge and repent of our sins all on our own.....have we forgotten that it is GOD Himself who binds people in sin, who blinds them to the truth and does NOT give a person a heart or strength to repent  UNTIL the appointed time? God must have a purpose for the existence of gays or they would have already repented! I do believe the act is a sin BECAUSE there are very specific scriptures that state that it is, however, I see no such scripture stating that ATTENDING a wedding ceremony for ANY sinner is a sin. God may have a specific reason for one to attend, such as He may have a person that He wants you to witness to that may also be attending. Who knows what God is doing? There is enough pain, exclusion and oppression in this world without adding to it. I for one will do my best, as God directs me and enables me, to be a light and shine the love of God, AS Christ was our example. Jesus did not just HAPPEN to bump into sinners....it is clear to ME that He actively SOUGHT THEM OUT, so I am assuming that He would have to GO where they were. You don't light a lamp and hide it UNDER a blanket.....Jesus prayed that His elect would NOT be taken out of this world. He said they would be the SALT AND LIGHT of the world.....not withdraw themselves completely......There are so many examples in the bible of people God sent right into the midst of sinful society for a purpose. Do we think God's arm is so short that He can not keep His elect from stumbling in the midst of a sinful society? Jesus was humble in spirit, full of compassion and MOST of His wrath seemed to me to be directed at RELIGIOUS HYPOCRITES, not sinners.


Yes, Jesus certainly did give it to the religious hypocrites.  You got that right.  But the fact of the matter is, we don't know who God's elect are.  I don't claim to be an elect.  I could be in the future, but as of now, I'm acutely AWARE of my inability to interact with people in certain situations without stumbling. 

I remember going to visit my daughter in Santa Cruz.  I drove 8 hours to go see her after having not seen her for about 4 years.  She asked me to come up there, and I was really glad to go.  And I get there and the first thing she does is open the door to her bedroom where her girlfriend was, laying on queensized mattress on the floor of my daughter's bedroom still groggy from the night before and I said, Hello.  She barely looked at me.  I didn't want to simply assume that just because there was another woman in her bed that that automatically meant my daughter was gay, but I was in denial. 

Later, I took them both out for lunch, and I asked Lauren what her girlfriend wanted for lunch, but her girlfriend didn't want anything.  I was kind to both of them.  I sat there talking with my daughter and being friendly with both of them at the restaurant while her girlfriend sat in the seat next to me HIDING HERSELF behind the restaurant menu.  Wouldn't say a word to me.  Barely lifted her voice.

Later on, Lauren made dinner for me and her girlfriend.  Same thing.  Wouldn't smile, barely spoke to me.

Then Lauren went to change her shirt and it said:  "SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE."   And she had her long hair covering over the words, but I could see them.  I though she was just someone who was supporting gay marriage.  It was only Lauren and I and sat there smoking cigarettes on their back porch, and I noticed she was trying really hard to cover up the words of the T-shirt.    I'm sure I was in shock because I was in such denial.  But she had no idea how I felt.  So, we talked about her adoption and her adoptive parents and this and that, and when I left the next day, I brought her and her girlfriend a gift card from Trader Joe's and Lauren hugged me really hard and said, "You're welcome here anytime!" 

When I got back home, I texted her and asked her if she and her girlfriend would like to visit me for thankgsgiving dinner for a little bite to eat if they had the time.  No pressure.  No response.  Texted her again.  No response. 

We never talked about the fact that she was involved in a gay relationship.  I was willing to have her in my home.  But looking back, I can clearly see that God had different plans.  God doesn't want her in my home.  Believe me, I would have totally accepted her and her girlfriend.  That's how WEAK I was.  God said, No!

And let me tell you, those weren't the only times I've spoken to my daughter or done kind things for her, or invited her to my home, both her and her girlfriend, but Lauren declines, just like Octoberose's son declines.  I would have totally accepted her and her girlfriend but God keeps her away from me.  I know why this is happening.  What fellowship does light have with darkness.  Last year, I wished her happy birthday by email, and asked to see some updated pictures.  She had a ring on her finger and I asked, jokingly, if there was nice man in her life.  And she laughed it off and said, Well, I've been dating my girlfriend for four years so no.  And I said, Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, well, I have to get back to work now.  Have  a nice day.  That's all I said, and she goes, THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR.  NOW YOU'RE BEING SHORT WITH ME.    MY MOTHER HAS TOTALLY ACCEPTED ME AND MY GIRLFRIEND.  I'VE BEEN THIS WAY MY WHOLE LIFE.  (But I remember when she was crushing on boys and dating them too.  That was before her girlfriend laid a kiss on her and she got indoctrinated.)

I said, Oh, I'm not offended.  It takes a lot to offend me.  And she said, WELL I'M OFFENDED THAT YOU'RE SORRY OVER WHO I LOVE.  GET OVER IT!  I'M NOT HURTING YOU!  I CAN'T BELIEVE WE'RE EVEN HAVING THIS DISCUSSION!  DON'T COME INQUIRING ABOUT MY LIFE!

I thought to myself, yeah, you love her about as much as the man in the moon, and I then I said, Well, I just meant that I"m sorry you're involved with a woman seeing how they're not the most kindhearted creatures in the world.  ( I meant that seriously.  I saw how I was going the same route as her adoptive mother, and God was saying to me You need to grow a pair, Gina.  You are spineless and desperate for approval from your daughter and how will you respond to Me when I open your daughter's eyes?!)

And we haven't spoken since.  Not because I haven't wanted to.  She cut herself off from me or God cut her off -- however you want to look at it.  I didn't say anything wrong.  Her girlfriend is not a kindhearted person at all, and I didn't make her what she is.  She is where she is not by anything I've done on my part.  I have ALWAYS been available to my daughter.  ALWAYS given her my address and my numbers (work and home) and nothing.  So, Laurie, you don't know what you're talking about.  But I forgive you.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 06, 2015, 01:46:45 PM
Lauriellen, "me thinks thou dost protest too much"..  Have you found yourself associating a little too much with those "of the world"?  Why do you believe it's your mission to 'cleanse the temple'?  Very few have been strong enough to do that and still "remain unspotted from the world"...  Gina brought out a very good point. Bad company does indeed corrupt good manners.  And as I tell my kids, "choose your friends (wisely), or they'll choose you".

So why be so adamant about the "gay weddings"?--- I mean if you're really up to it, there's a half a million strip clubs, bordellos, swinger parties and the like just full of sinners who need Jesus.  Shouldn't we be the SALT and LIGHT in there as well?
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 06, 2015, 03:08:49 PM
Yes, the aim is to follow Jesus in order that our salt will not lose its saltiness.

Lot was separated from Sodom by God.  Lot didn't separate himself.   But if we are like Lot's WIFE and turn back with longing and yearning for where we come from or for those that have no desire of doing right, we risk becoming PILLARS of salt and of NO EFFECT whatsoever.

Jesus said in Luke 17

32"Remember Lot's wife. 33"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it [Lot's wife lost her life in her turning back and yearning for the country that God was drawing them out of], and whoever loses his life will preserve it [Lot's life was preserved because he wasn't doing what his wife was doing].

So I'm in tune more so now to God's voice than to my own wishes and my own desires to have a "healthy" relationship with my daughter.  I know that my daughter will be saved.  I do not need to TURN BACK AND FEEL SORRY FOR HER OR FOR ANY RELATIONSHIP THAT I AM LOSING NOW and risk becoming of NO EFFECT at all.  I will most certainly NOT be commended for that.  I'm not seeking praise from men/women but from God.  Seek ye FIRST (preeminently, first and foremost!) the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all of these things shall be added unto you. 

I hope I don't sound preachy.  God knows I just love the approval of men and women.  Ray said, if you aren't suffering persecution in your daily walk, you're doing it wrong. 

So I want to thank God for having been falsely lumped in with Westboro Baptist Church and falsely called religious hypocrite.  Now I have assurance that I am on the right track.  :)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: whyte baer on April 06, 2015, 05:46:29 PM


"(H)ave we forgotten that it is GOD Himself who binds people in sin, who blinds them to the truth and does NOT give a person a heart or strength to repent  UNTIL the appointed time? God must have a purpose for the existence of gays or they would have already repented! "
Thank you for that.
I have been with my friend for 7 years. We spoke of marriage, but I just can't wrap my brain around it.
Homosexuality is not just the sex part. I never chose to be this way, I'm not rebelling against God. The happiest day of my life was the day  I was reading about hell on this site, and my brain put all of it together, and I realized God's truth!  I was not going to burn forever ( like a lot of people think I should), I had His Grace and Mercy and Forgivenes. I have developed such a love for everyone, I can't even really 'hate' the devil. He is evil and bad, but he is doing exactly what God designed him for. My thoughts have always been to try to help other homosexuals know about God. I don't agree with the ex-gay ministries, they are money-grubbing groups that use guilt and fear for motivation, instead of love and understanding their pain. God CHOSE me in March of 83 in an AOG church in the Philippines. If someone had told me the night before that I was going to go to a church the next day, and get saved (for lack of a better phrase)I would have laughed in their face and bought them another drink. I  tried to "go straight" for 20 years. Should I have to be alone for the rest of my life to please "the church"? I don't care about the sex part, I have folks just tell me to live alone and I'll be fine... I don't want to be alone anymore. Isn't 20 years enough time to try before giving up in frustration? I know Paul had his 'thorn'.....but I feel so much of my life was wasted trying to be something I wasn't... I don't hate men , I worked on aircraft around men for over 30 years.... I really don't have the right words to show you what I mean. Everyone automatically calls it sin. I have studied and researched for several years now, and things are taken out of context to prove homosexuality is wrong. I believe how we live our life is what God looks at.

Thank you all for you opinions...
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: John from Kentucky on April 06, 2015, 06:12:57 PM


"(H)ave we forgotten that it is GOD Himself who binds people in sin, who blinds them to the truth and does NOT give a person a heart or strength to repent  UNTIL the appointed time? God must have a purpose for the existence of gays or they would have already repented! "
Thank you for that.
I have been with my friend for 7 years. We spoke of marriage, but I just can't wrap my brain around it.
Homosexuality is not just the sex part. I never chose to be this way, I'm not rebelling against God. The happiest day of my life was the day  I was reading about hell on this site, and my brain put all of it together, and I realized God's truth!  I was not going to burn forever ( like a lot of people think I should), I had His Grace and Mercy and Forgivenes. I have developed such a love for everyone, I can't even really 'hate' the devil. He is evil and bad, but he is doing exactly what God designed him for. My thoughts have always been to try to help other homosexuals know about God. I don't agree with the ex-gay ministries, they are money-grubbing groups that use guilt and fear for motivation, instead of love and understanding their pain. God CHOSE me in March of 83 in an AOG church in the Philippines. If someone had told me the night before that I was going to go to a church the next day, and get saved (for lack of a better phrase)I would have laughed in their face and bought them another drink. I  tried to "go straight" for 20 years. Should I have to be alone for the rest of my life to please "the church"? I don't care about the sex part, I have folks just tell me to live alone and I'll be fine... I don't want to be alone anymore. Isn't 20 years enough time to try before giving up in frustration? I know Paul had his 'thorn'.....but I feel so much of my life was wasted trying to be something I wasn't... I don't hate men , I worked on aircraft around men for over 30 years.... I really don't have the right words to show you what I mean. Everyone automatically calls it sin. I have studied and researched for several years now, and things are taken out of context to prove homosexuality is wrong. I believe how we live our life is what God looks at.

Thank you all for you opinions...


Just one moment friend.  It is one thing to understand that we are all sinners and all have fallen short of the glory of God.

It is another thing to try to rationalize sin and to try to justify it.  God sets the bounds for everything in the heavens and earth.  He says what is good and evil.

Ray wrote the best article I have found that explains from the Scriptures that homosexuality is a sin, which I have attached below.

Study the truth in that article.  You then need to decide if you will accept the truth or reject truth.

http://bible-truths.com/homosex.htm
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Gina on April 06, 2015, 06:29:02 PM


"(H)ave we forgotten that it is GOD Himself who binds people in sin, who blinds them to the truth and does NOT give a person a heart or strength to repent  UNTIL the appointed time? God must have a purpose for the existence of gays or they would have already repented! "
Thank you for that.
I have been with my friend for 7 years. We spoke of marriage, but I just can't wrap my brain around it.
Homosexuality is not just the sex part. I never chose to be this way, I'm not rebelling against God. The happiest day of my life was the day  I was reading about hell on this site, and my brain put all of it together, and I realized God's truth!  I was not going to burn forever ( like a lot of people think I should), I had His Grace and Mercy and Forgivenes. I have developed such a love for everyone, I can't even really 'hate' the devil. He is evil and bad, but he is doing exactly what God designed him for. My thoughts have always been to try to help other homosexuals know about God. I don't agree with the ex-gay ministries, they are money-grubbing groups that use guilt and fear for motivation, instead of love and understanding their pain. God CHOSE me in March of 83 in an AOG church in the Philippines. If someone had told me the night before that I was going to go to a church the next day, and get saved (for lack of a better phrase)I would have laughed in their face and bought them another drink. I  tried to "go straight" for 20 years. Should I have to be alone for the rest of my life to please "the church"? I don't care about the sex part, I have folks just tell me to live alone and I'll be fine... I don't want to be alone anymore. Isn't 20 years enough time to try before giving up in frustration? I know Paul had his 'thorn'.....but I feel so much of my life was wasted trying to be something I wasn't... I don't hate men , I worked on aircraft around men for over 30 years.... I really don't have the right words to show you what I mean. Everyone automatically calls it sin. I have studied and researched for several years now, and things are taken out of context to prove homosexuality is wrong. I believe how we live our life is what God looks at.

Thank you all for you opinions...

Welcome to the forum whyte baer.

Gays have repented because it does hurt them physically, emotionally, and spiritually. 

Yes, how we live our lives is what God looks at, and all our "good works" account for filthy rags if we are relying on them to be righteous in God's eyes.   It's sad how you can say that God binds people in sin and gays would have repented IF God didn't have a purpose for them.

So what?  Are you saying the reason Satan is still doing his deceitful works and hasn't repented is because he's not doing anything wrong?   God has a purpose for the crooked serpent Satan too, but that doesn't make what he's doing right.  Jesus came to UNDO the works of the devil. 

But that's not what this thread is about.  It's about attending a gay wedding, hypothetically.  And if even you can't wrap your brain around gay marriage .......................    You're not making much sense to me.

Just because you feel that much of your life was wasted trying to be something you aren't, does not make what you're attempting to be WRONG.  I have tried for close to 40 years to quit smoking cigarettes.  Should I just give up and stop praying that God will take this from me, simply because I don't have the strength to give it up?  Do I now call smoking cigarettes a GOOD thing to do?  Do I sigh and whine and say, Gosh, if I didn't have a purpose for smoking I know I would have repented by now?  I don't CARE that people shun me for being a smoker.  That is their right.  They have every right to shun a smoker.  They don't want that around themselves.  Some can't stomach the smell of it.  So what do I do?  Go and seek out a non-smoking forum and proceed to give them all the ridiculous explanations and "research" from "teachers" I have heaped to myself in an attempt to convince them (but more likely myself?) as to WHY I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG by smoking cigarettes?  How much patience do you think those forum members should have for me and my psycho-babble?   A lot, I'll bet!

What you're doing here and the things you're saying are wrong because as you said, God blinds people and binds them to sin and when people are steeped in their sin and pleasures, they can't see their sin.  You're simply in a state of blindness.  It's not that you don't want to see your sin, you SIMPLY CANNOT.  And just as you said, until God lifts the blinders, only then will you be able to SEE and agree and acknowledge that what you are doing is wrong.  You might not have be given the grace or the power yet to do anything to change it at the present, but God definitely has a reason for the likes of both you and me to be here.

Keep reading Ray's materials.  There's definitely a reason why you're here.  Nobody's here by accident.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 06, 2015, 08:16:59 PM
whyte bear, I'm glad you are here. I'm glad you spoke up. I hope you don't mind if I respond.
 Ray and Dennis did not start this forum (Dennis, you can correct me here) in order to give everyone a 'get out of jail free' card. The point was not that since there's no hell and God is sovereign and He decides who to draw and who to blind, that we can live according to our own desires.
 Romans 6- "What shall we  say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We who have died to sin, how can we live in it any longer?...v6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—  because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
And then the chapter goes on v. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
 This is directed to All of us, all of us are being told not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies and not to obey its evil desires. Everyone of us. We all are being told to offer ourselves to God .  That means the guy with the computer and the pornography, that means the woman who is flirting with a neighbor because her husband isn't paying attention to her, and it also means those of us who have an issue with food (gluttony is sin) or drugs or alcohol.  I could go on and on.
 Stay on this forum, talk when you want to, challenge yourself and your beliefs. Sometimes that gets uncomfortable- at least it is for me.
 Yes, you are right that how we live out our lives is what God looks at. I could say that God sees the heart when others don't but the fact is that " the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt, who can understand it?"
 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lauriellen on April 06, 2015, 08:28:35 PM
I live in a rural bible belt area and I don't know anyone who is openly gay (or secretly gay that I know of), so it is unlikely that I will ever get an invitation to a gay wedding. I have already stated that I believe the bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, so don't accuse me of something you know nothing about. i feel no obligation to save the gays above any other sinner. I have not in any way stated that I believe that I am one of God's elect, and I would go further to say that there are probably fewer TRUE elect than anyone realizes....what I do feel is an obligation to reflect the love that God has given me. Whatever gifts He gives me, He will see that I use....wherever He sends me, He will see that I go....We all have a different walk and a different purpose.   What I protest is someone who thinks they have the authority to name ANYTHING a sin that is not specifically called such in the bible, and who assumes to judge the workings of someone else's heart.
Rom 14:4  Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
I live in a rural bible belt area and I don't know anyone who is openly gay (or secretly gay that I know of), so it is unlikely that I will ever get an invitation to a gay wedding. I have already stated that I believe the bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, so don't accuse me of something you know nothing about. i feel no obligation to save the gays above any other sinner. I have not in any way stated that I believe that I am one of God's elect, and I would go further to say that there are probably fewer TRUE elect than anyone realizes....what I do feel is an obligation to reflect the love that God has given me. Whatever gifts He gives me, He will see that I use....wherever He sends me, He will see that I go....We all have a different walk and a different purpose.   What I protest is someone who thinks they have the authority to name ANYTHING a sin that is not specifically called such in the bible, and who assumes to judge the workings of someone else's heart.
Rom 14:4  Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Me too.

Octoberose, thanks for your earlier post.  I know very well this is not 'hypothetical' to you.  Actually, it's not completely out-of-the-possibility of a reality for me, though considerations about something that hasn't happened is a "hypothetical" situation by definition.  My goodness, we've even had Jesus "hypothetically" making a decision in this thread.

But on what you said:  I think I've said to you before...and I don't think I'm wrong...Nathan may not be the one God is dealing with right now.  Certainly, he is not dealing with him in the same way if He is.  But there is but One God, and He is Nathan's God too.  Your post reminded me of the parable of the man with two sons.  In some way, you remind me of the 'father' in that story, which is better than being the elder son.  Nathan will arise and go to his father. 

Believe me, WHATEVER YOU DO OR DON'T DO, I'm with you...even though I'm not very important.  Whether it would be what I'd do or not matters NOTHING.  We have ONE LORD, and I'm not Him. 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Kat on April 06, 2015, 10:04:14 PM

Well I'm late to the discussion... been out of town for the weekend.

But I HAVE been invited to a gay wedding, my brother-in-law's about 5 yrs ago. I did not accept and go, nor did I send them my best wishes. Do understand I care for my BIL very much, I have enjoyed visiting with him and his partner many times. But I do not condone same-sex marriage, and I believe it would appear that I did, condone it, if I attended a ceremony of 'joining' 2 people to be 1... which I believe the the main purpose of marriage is bringing children into the world. I do not feel it is a sin to be born a homosexual, but I do believe it is a sin to participate in same gender sex or fornication or adultery.

I believe we are to embrace righteousness as much as we can and anybody living for God (by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) should be striving to do... as Paul was an example to all, especially the believers, so should we try to be.

Php 4:7  And, the peace of God, which riseth above every mind, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts, in Christ Jesus.
v. 8  For the rest, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are dignified, whatsoever things are righteous, whatsoever things are chaste, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report,—if there be any virtue, and if any praise, the same, be taking into account;
v. 9  The things which ye have both learned, and accepted, and heard, and seen in me, the same, practise;—and, the God of peace, shall be with you. (Rotherham)

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: John from Kentucky on April 06, 2015, 10:42:50 PM
Kat, I'll take issue with one of your statements that "the main purpose of marriage is bringing children into the world."

The Scripture says, Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." Gen 2:18

A man needs a woman to help with stuff.   8)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 06, 2015, 11:41:58 PM


But on what you said:  I think I've said to you before...and I don't think I'm wrong...Nathan may not be the one God is dealing with right now.  Certainly, he is not dealing with him in the same way if He is.  But there is but One God, and He is Nathan's God too.  Your post reminded me of the parable of the man with two sons.  In some way, you remind me of the 'father' in that story, which is better than being the elder son.  Nathan will arise and go to his father. 


You have said that to me Dave, and then Gina spoke yesterday about how God kept her from her daughter and how He has dealt with her in this situation. I don't want it to be about me- but I'm afraid you may be right. Do I need more faith, more patience, more willingness to let go, the sadness of having people I love leave me? I don't know.  Only two of my friends know our situation and I have been thinking I need to be open with people. At first I was protecting Nathan's privacy, but he doesn't so why am I?  They know some of it but I think I must be protecting myself by not telling them the rest of it. I need to do that.
 
JFK, that's the first thing on this whole thread that made me laugh.  :)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: John from Kentucky on April 06, 2015, 11:53:06 PM
It's good to laugh Octoberose.  It helps us through the trials of life.

Remember the proverb: A merry heart does good, like a medicine, but a broken spirit dries the bones. Pro 17:22

Take care and may God guide your way.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 07, 2015, 12:48:33 AM
Well JFK,  I don't mind saying I agree with your last two posts... No argument from me.  ;)

(please don't mind the emoticon if it offends)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 07, 2015, 01:01:37 AM
Kat, you said:

Quote
I do not feel it is a sin to be born a homosexual, but I do believe it is a sin to participate in same gender sex or fornication or adultery.

This is a deeper level of this subject...  What we are "born with".  I'm very closely familiar with people who were born 'retarded'.  Not their fault, obviously. In the same way our being "born into sin" is not our fault.  And yet, we are accountable for the sins we commit

And I'm well aware of the sins--and the crimes--retarded persons have committed.  Are they excused from these because of the DEFECT of their birth? 

Yes or no?

Are homosexual feelings a "defect" or not? 
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 07, 2015, 01:43:45 AM
The question is too loaded for me to answer 'yes' or 'no'.  Define "excused" and maybe I'll give it a shot.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Mike Gagne on April 07, 2015, 02:28:40 AM
Hi Alex, your qoute;
Hi Micheal,
Yes this is how I try the spirits. I search scripture first. Scripture has said what it has said.  End of qoute.

Alex here is some scriptures, did you search them?
1Co 5:9  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

1Co 5:10  Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

1Co 5:11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Co 5:13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 OK Alex thats a good one! Heres some more

Psalms 1:1-2   (KJV)

1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night

2 Corinthians 6:14   (KJV)

14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:17   (KJV)

17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Ephesians 5:11   (KJV)

11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
2 Thessalonians 3:14   (KJV)

14  And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Now you have some council from the word of God. What you do with it is up to you.  If you do whats right then fine, and if you do whats not right then God will hold you accountable! Whether you judge your self or not it is up to you. Like I said its not about the gay man and his wedding. Its about you! Here is a qoute from LRay…

I am not condemning the sinners, but I am condemning the sin and the lax attitudes toward this sin. As Paul clearly states:

"...and such were some of YOU."

How is it that Paul can state: "such were" some of you?

"For ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the Glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).
God will pardon all of our sins, but they must be put in our past.

If I condoned my own past sins, I never would have repented of them.

"Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world... Among whom also we all had our conduct in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh..." (Eph. 2:2-3).

Continuing:

"For ALL have sinned... Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Rom. 3:24-26).
Now back up to the beginning of Romans 6:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Rom. 6:1-2).


There is salvation available, and it is by grace, not our own personal works of righteousness, but we must first repent. This repentance is also by grace. It is a gift from God just like salvation itself. Once again, we are ALL in the same boat for we have ALL sinned.
End of qoute.

Well I hope this helps if you ever get invited to a gay mans wedding.

God be with you
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Ricky on April 07, 2015, 03:38:22 AM
It is not good for man to be alone, so God created a helper for him, a women, not another man. But this women was created through a man. She was not created from the ground like the man was. That may be how gay people are created. What happens if you go to prison straight and come out gay. If gay people are born that way, Adam and Eve have the same blood, maybe that's the reason there are gay people.  Ricky
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: santgem on April 07, 2015, 04:24:52 AM
It is not good for man to be alone, so God created a helper for him, a women, not another man. But this women was created through a man. She was not created from the ground like the man was. That may be how gay people are created. What happens if you go to prison straight and come out gay. If gay people are born that way, Adam and Eve have the same blood, maybe that's the reason there are gay people.  Ricky


Is Adam gay? :(

Maybe? :)

when only at the time God changed Adam and bring forth a woman and he became straight..... :D LOL!
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Ricky on April 07, 2015, 04:55:15 AM
I don't like gay people running around terrorizing the planet.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 07, 2015, 09:44:38 AM
The question is too loaded for me to answer 'yes' or 'no'.  Define "excused" and maybe I'll give it a shot.

"Excused", as in "not guilty".

One of the crimes most prevalent in the state 'warehouses' where we store mentally defective people (not agreeing with it, just making an observation) is rape.  Sodomy (forced) is also common when the stronger dudes get hold of a little guy.  And while many (with Downs, for example) are generally kind-hearted by nature, there are some retarded folk who are downright mean little b**tards.

So are they guilty of rape, or not?  Does their defect "excuse" them?  What say ye.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Kat on April 07, 2015, 11:17:16 AM
Kat, you said:

Quote
I do not feel it is a sin to be born a homosexual, but I do believe it is a sin to participate in same gender sex or fornication or adultery.

This is a deeper level of this subject...  What we are "born with".  I'm very closely familiar with people who were born 'retarded'.  Not their fault, obviously. In the same way our being "born into sin" is not our fault.  And yet, we are accountable for the sins we commit

And I'm well aware of the sins--and the crimes--retarded persons have committed.  Are they excused from these because of the DEFECT of their birth? 

Yes or no?

Are homosexual feelings a "defect" or not? 

This is a question that I do not believe we are always able to know the answer to, certainly physicians and physiologist don't always get it right. I do believe that some are born with a mental disposition that is different than what is considered 'normal,' as a more feminine than masculine quality in some men, seems to have always been present.

Another thing is I don't believe it matters what 'we' consider as right or wrong, okay or not, as we become desensitized to things that become common place or accepted behavior. Nor is ignorance an excuse, but probably would be taken into account. But it is our perfect and righteous God who will be the judge a person will face and give an account to, and He knows all the real thoughts in the mind and the heart, none will deceive Him.

It is one thing to know there is evil, we can plainly see it's many disturbing results, but it is quite another thing to understand it subtle beginnings and how took root. Homosexuality is but 1 of these things that some have to contend with. But for now in this age we are all kind of stumbling along with all manners of obstacles that create an experience for us in evil and good, it's how we react and deal with these things by which our character is formed and we will be judged. We have our human heart that is "deceitful above all things, and desperately sick (weak); (Jer 17:9) and we have Satan, God's and our arch enemy. Is there any wonder that this world is such a corrupt place?

1Peter 5:8  Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour;

God has given His Spirit to some so that we can begin to know right from wrong, and resist the corruption of this world in all it's various forms, so He will have those that will help/serve Him make this world a much better place in the next age. But I do believe those chosen need to begin in righteousness now.

James 4:4  You adulterers! Don't you know that friendship with the world means hostility with God? So whoever wants to be a friend of this world is an enemy of God.
v. 5  Or do you think the Scripture means nothing when it says that the Spirit that God caused to live in us jealously yearns for us?

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lareli on April 07, 2015, 01:33:14 PM
Octoberose, Alex and Extol.. So from you perspective attending a gay wedding would mean that you have made that person your god?

Gina and the way you see it attending a gay wedding so not to offend the person would mean you love that person more than Christ? And this is not your personal feeling but is in fact TRUTH?

Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Extol on April 07, 2015, 02:17:28 PM
Octoberose, Alex and Extol.. So from you perspective attending a gay wedding would mean that you have made that person your god?

Gina and the way you see it attending a gay wedding so not to offend the person would mean you love that person more than Christ? And this is not your personal feeling but is in fact TRUTH?

As we have said repeatedly here: there is a difference between associating with a gay person and celebrating gay marriage.  Why is this so hard to understand?

I don't mind playing tennis with a gay person, or buying food from a gay cashier, but I don't want to celebrate that person's marriage. That doesn't make me two-faced. Maybe it will help you understand if we drop the "gay" part and give you an example from "straight" people:

I visited Alex over the winter and we had a great time together. We had Bible studies,  went to the beach, went out for lunch, and so on. Let's say during my visit I fell prey to my youthful lusts,  and wanted to go check out a pornography store.  If Alex refused to go with me, should I whine and complain and say "you're not accepting me for who I am. You should love me, weaknesses and all"?  Give me a break.  He would rebuke me, and he would be right to rebuke me. He would still be my friend and brother.  He wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite for going to the beach with me but NOT going to the porn shop with me.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lurquer on April 07, 2015, 02:28:18 PM
Well, Kat, I'm not disagreeing with you at all.  Matter of fact I'm with you 100% on what you said in your last post.

I was trying to point out that whatever the CAUSE of the desire/behavior/defect (ultimately it is of God), nevertheless, it is still called SIN.  We cannot re-define an act or a behavior God calls sin, as not sin,  merely because we think it is unfair of God to have made us this way. 

Mentally defective people sometimes murder.  That makes them a murderer.  Defect or not, I don't see any loopholes in the Scriptures that excuse anyone from guilt and accountability for their sins when they violate the commandments of God. With the possible exception of persons who sin in ignorance--and no 'Christians'--certainly no one here can claim that waiver.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: lareli on April 07, 2015, 02:37:23 PM
Octoberose, Alex and Extol.. So from you perspective attending a gay wedding would mean that you have made that person your god?

Gina and the way you see it attending a gay wedding so not to offend the person would mean you love that person more than Christ? And this is not your personal feeling but is in fact TRUTH?

As we have said repeatedly here: there is a difference between associating with a gay person and celebrating gay marriage.  Why is this so hard to understand?

I don't mind playing tennis with a gay person, or buying food from a gay cashier, but I don't want to celebrate that person's marriage. That doesn't make me two-faced. Maybe it will help you understand if we drop the "gay" part and give you an example from "straight" people:

I visited Alex over the winter and we had a great time together. We had Bible studies,  went to the beach, went out for lunch, and so on. Let's say during my visit I fell prey to my youthful lusts,  and wanted to go check out a pornography store.  If Alex refused to go with me, should I whine and complain and say "you're not accepting me for who I am. You should love me, weaknesses and all"?  Give me a break.  He would rebuke me, and he would be right to rebuke me. He would still be my friend and brother.  He wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite for going to the beach with me but NOT going to the porn shop with me.

Sorry. Yes I understand what you're saying. Difference in associating with someone and actually celebrating something. I wasn't asking about that. I was asking if attending the wedding of a gay person makes that person your god.

My original question was would you go to the wedding if it were your sons wedding. Octoberose answered and said something about not making our children our god. You and Alex commented in agreement with Octoberose answer. I am trying to clarify if you three are saying that attending your sons gay wedding would make your son your god?
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Extol on April 07, 2015, 03:14:53 PM
Octoberose, Alex and Extol.. So from you perspective attending a gay wedding would mean that you have made that person your god?

Gina and the way you see it attending a gay wedding so not to offend the person would mean you love that person more than Christ? And this is not your personal feeling but is in fact TRUTH?

As we have said repeatedly here: there is a difference between associating with a gay person and celebrating gay marriage.  Why is this so hard to understand?

I don't mind playing tennis with a gay person, or buying food from a gay cashier, but I don't want to celebrate that person's marriage. That doesn't make me two-faced. Maybe it will help you understand if we drop the "gay" part and give you an example from "straight" people:

I visited Alex over the winter and we had a great time together. We had Bible studies,  went to the beach, went out for lunch, and so on. Let's say during my visit I fell prey to my youthful lusts,  and wanted to go check out a pornography store.  If Alex refused to go with me, should I whine and complain and say "you're not accepting me for who I am. You should love me, weaknesses and all"?  Give me a break.  He would rebuke me, and he would be right to rebuke me. He would still be my friend and brother.  He wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite for going to the beach with me but NOT going to the porn shop with me.

Sorry. Yes I understand what you're saying. Difference in associating with someone and actually celebrating something. I wasn't asking about that. I was asking if attending the wedding of a gay person makes that person your god.

My original question was would you go to the wedding if it were your sons wedding. Octoberose answered and said something about not making our children our god. You and Alex commented in agreement with Octoberose answer. I am trying to clarify if you three are saying that attending your sons gay wedding would make your son your god?

And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

--Judges 2:12

The people round about us have many gods, and Tolerance is one of the hottest ones going. The temples are filled with people of all backgrounds who have come together to bow down to Tolerance and Egalitarianism, never mind what their religious or moralistic upbringing has taught them. They've made these gods all the more tempting by saying these are gods of love---It's about loving all people, just like God commands us to do. We must show love for their sinful "different" lifestyle, and praise them for having the courage to admit to their lifestyle in the face of persecution.  ::)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: arion on April 07, 2015, 06:25:23 PM
I've avoided wading into this one but for me this would be one of the easiest decisions I'd have to make. 

Rom 14:23  .......for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1Jn 3:21  Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I could not attend a homosexual union [I refuse to call it a wedding.  They want the honor that goes with the marriage bed].  Even if it were my own child I could not attend and give my approval.  I would love that child unconditionally.  The child and even the partner would be invited into my home [separate bedrooms for overnights] and I would be loving to them and not rude in any way.  Another believer could come up with many reasons why they could go and can show bible verses for the way they look at it.  Fine.  That is between them and God.  Fact of the matter is if someone has to ask whether or not it is 'ok' to do something then they already know the answer in their heart.  Whatever is not of faith.....
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 07, 2015, 07:42:45 PM
I don't like gay people running around terrorizing the planet.

Lol............Ricky, gay people are not terrorizing the planet, what your hearing in the news is a deception , what we have are gay activist trying to change the very fabric of society, when gay activist go into a mom and pop bakery or flower shop they are not there to buy cakes or flowers, they want to be told no, in other words they go where they know that particular store will not cater to them.

Let me reiterate, you have two bakeries side by side,  one will sell to gay people without and issue the other will not, guess which one the gay activist go into, that’s right you guessed it, the one that won’t ,  I wonder why.......LOL

Its all about breaking down the power structure and fabric of our society, its just another hole in the wall. Gay marriage, abortions, drug addiction, can’t work because I get panic attacks, but its all in the plan of God.

It only appears the world is upside down but its not, God is in control, always was and always will be.  :)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: octoberose on April 07, 2015, 08:15:04 PM
Octoberose, Alex and Extol.. So from you perspective attending a gay wedding would mean that you have made that person your god?

Gina and the way you see it attending a gay wedding so not to offend the person would mean you love that person more than Christ? And this is not your personal feeling but is in fact TRUTH?

I think in context, I said if I was accepting (truly I don't know what word to use. It's not that I don't accept the fact. Or love him. It's just I don't accept that this is acceptable behavior) of his sexual leanings  than that would be substituting what I believe is the  teachings of the God of the Universe with the god of this world.
 I'm not sure why that's a struggle for you. An idol is a god. Anything not from our God is an idol. I'm afraid I think you are just being argumentative because you don't agree. I've already said in essence  that attending a wedding is showing support. I do not want to show support for that which I know is sinful. As Ray would say, "Am I going too fast for anyone?".
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: John from Kentucky on April 07, 2015, 09:18:55 PM
Octoberose, Alex and Extol.. So from you perspective attending a gay wedding would mean that you have made that person your god?

Gina and the way you see it attending a gay wedding so not to offend the person would mean you love that person more than Christ? And this is not your personal feeling but is in fact TRUTH?

I think in context, I said if I was accepting (truly I don't know what word to use. It's not that I don't accept the fact. Or love him. It's just I don't accept that this is acceptable behavior) of his sexual leanings  than that would be substituting what I believe is the  teachings of the God of the Universe with the god of this world.
 I'm not sure why that's a struggle for you. An idol is a god. Anything not from our God is an idol. I'm afraid I think you are just being argumentative because you don't agree. I've already said in essence  that attending a wedding is showing support. I do not want to show support for that which I know is sinful. As Ray would say, "Am I going too fast for anyone?".

 ;D ;D ;D ;D   I just love that Rayism.  It's one of my favorites.

I agree with your statements.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 07, 2015, 09:29:50 PM
I'm bowing out of this one, though I think a good random number to 'stop' it at would be 7 pages.   ;D  Doesn't mean another train of thought couldn't be followed in a fresh thread.

I just want to say that I did not intend to 'compare' anybody in this thread with the Westboro Baptist Church folks' doctrine or attitude.  It was all about 'demonstrating'.  My 'presence' or 'absence' from this hypothetical gathering would not be for purposes of 'making a statement'.  That's what I mean, and all I meant.

Truth be told, I would rather be the bride at such a wedding than spend an hour silently 'worshipping' with that crowd. And that's the truth.

Finally...Extol, I DID hypothetically excuse myself from the "honeymoon" as I have done at every other actual wedding I've attended.  I'm sure that makes no difference to most of you, but it does to me...so I'm sticking with it.       
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: dave on April 07, 2015, 10:21:23 PM
I have little to say, it has been a good, thoughtful, and a human thread. I am glad for all the offerings, for me as far as my walk I will stay with
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. Yet if your brother should be sinning, rebuke him, and if he should ever indeed repent, forgive him."
Luk 17:4 And if he should ever be sinning against you seven times a day, and if he should ever be turning about seven times a day to you, saying 'I am repenting,' you shall be forgiving him."

No I do not fully understand the position that confronts me/a believer on this subject, but I know that I am a sinner seeking repair of my weaknesses, IF confronted with the situation of being asked to attend a homosexual gathering of any kind, I don't know. I have no fellowship at this time, but should I have a FRIEND of that persuasion, I would say I would go, simply because a FRIEND asked me. I would be worthless as a FRIEND if I did not go. LOVE is LOVE Mat 11:29 Lift My yoke upon you and be learning from Me, for meek am I and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your souls,
Mat 11:30 for My yoke is kindly and My load is light." But that is just me.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Mike Gagne on April 07, 2015, 10:59:08 PM
hey! someone call me a westboro baptist church folk?  :o  lol.  I seen that way back there! thats ok just don't call me late for lunch!   :D  8)
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Nathan on April 08, 2015, 12:09:35 AM
I was invited to a "gay wedding" a couple months ago. Actually, my wife was invited and she asked me to go. The couple that were married are friends of my wife and one of them is a former colleague of hers (my wife works in social services, specifically working with those infected with HIV/Aids). I have met both of these men at several of my wife's work functions and we have gone out to lunch with them a couple of times - nice guys.

With that being said, I declined to go to the wedding. I simply did not want to support or in any way be involved with a celebration of their union. My wife did go. She is not an advocate of the homosexual lifestyle, but in her mind she was there to support her friends, not their "their sinful union".

I told her that attending the wedding would be celebrating and supporting a lifestyle that is clearly condemned by God. She saw it as God knew her heart and knew she was not celebrating their homosexuality, but was supporting her friends who she loves unconditionally. In the end, she went to the wedding alone. I feel I was justified in my decision not to go and she feels justified in her decision to go. For me this was a black and white issue, for her it wasn't an issue at all. Let God be the judge.



Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 08, 2015, 01:43:10 AM
I have little to say, it has been a good, thoughtful, and a human thread.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 08, 2015, 02:15:27 AM
just don't call me late for lunch!   :D  8)

LOl
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 08, 2015, 02:20:23 AM
I'm bowing out of this one,

me too.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Ricky on April 08, 2015, 03:55:05 AM
They dont have to live here now, we could build a space station for them, and let the ufo`s figure out what thier stupid problem is.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: santgem on April 08, 2015, 05:05:58 AM
................With that being said, I declined to go to the wedding. I simply did not want to support or in any way be involved with a celebration of their union. My wife did go. She is not an advocate of the homosexual lifestyle, but in her mind she was there to support her friends, not their "their sinful union".

I told her that attending the wedding would be celebrating and supporting a lifestyle that is clearly condemned by God. She saw it as God knew her heart and knew she was not celebrating their homosexuality, but was supporting her friends who she loves unconditionally. In the end, she went to the wedding alone. I feel I was justified in my decision not to go and she feels justified in her decision to go. For me this was a black and white issue, for her it wasn't an issue at all. Let God be the judge.


Wife supporting in attending gay marriage;

And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. Mat 9:10

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. Luke 15:1


Husband not attending gay marriage for some reasons;

That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other . And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Romans 1:26-27

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2Co 6:14

Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery. Heb 13:4


We have to make it a point  to show love to our friend and also, it is good to show kindness and love to our gay friends and/or gay family. But, such intentions  are mistaken when it comes to attending a gay wedding. Followers of Christ have the  concern to stand up for righteousness, even if it results in discomfort, hate, division, or rift (Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53; If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. John 15:18).

In my opinion, a follower of  Christ should respectfully decline if ever invited to a gay wedding. And in the end, (Let your conversation be gracious and attractive so that you will have the right response for everyone. Col 4:6)


but if you are the flower arranger and you have business there, you must attend, you have to do your stuff, that's your obligation............... :) :) :D
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: whyte baer on April 08, 2015, 05:13:54 AM
QUOTE:     "They dont have to live here now, we could build a space station for them, and let the ufo`s figure out what thier stupid problem is."

I can't be friends with most gays because I'm too religious( spiritual/ Jesus follower)and they don't care to talk about Jesus.
I can't be friends with spiritual people because I'm lesbian, and they want to make me straight.
I thought I was safe here.    Guess not.




Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: rick on April 08, 2015, 08:53:23 AM
They dont have to live here now, we could build a space station for them, and let the ufo`s figure out what thier stupid problem is.

You want to say that to God, like Ray would say, I don’t think you want to go there.
Title: Re: Gay Weddings
Post by: Rene on April 08, 2015, 10:17:40 AM
Now that the good, bad, and ugly have been expressed, I am going to lock this thread.  Hopefully this topic has given us much to think about as to where we are in our spiritual journey.

René