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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Bill on June 15, 2007, 12:28:04 PM
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For Reference here are four accounts of the baptism.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Who Saw the spirit like a dove?
How does one see a spirit?
Who's voice said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"? And who heard it?
Remember this is Matthews, Mark, Luke and John witness account of what happened.
Thanks
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Who's voice said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"?
Well for the question of who's voice, we know it was not the father.
Christ's words
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Ray touched on this in Nashville, if you get a chance to listen to it.
Craig
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Hi Craig,
Thanks for the reply.
Who's voice said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"?
Well for the question of who's voice, we know it was not the father.
Any ideas who then?
Reminds me of this riddle -
A young boy and his father were out playing football when they were caught at the bottom of a giant pileup. Both were injured and rushed to the hospital. They were wheeled into separate operating rooms and two doctors prepped up to work on them, one doctor for each patient. The doctor operating on the father got started right away, but the doctor assigned to the young boy stared at him in surprise. "I can´t operate on him!" the doctor exclaimed to the staff. "That child is my son!"
How can that be?
Christ's words
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
There is scripture that state no man has seen God but are there any that say no man has not heard God?
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So who is the ye? "Ye have neither heard his voice at any time"
Ray touched on this in Nashville, if you get a chance to listen to it.
I have finished the first two or three perhaps it is time to finish the rest :-)
Thanks
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Hi BK & Craig,
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
I know that when I try to figure out the power and majesty of God my puny brain just cannot fathom very much at all.
The message that was proclaimed at the Lord's baptism was from the Father but was it really His voice? Do we presently have the technology to synthesize vocal communication? Could the Father have just manipulated the wind, air, water or whatever to proclaim His pleasure? Would He be limited to using His Spiritual vocal chords?
This is what came to mind when I saw this question presented.
His power is beyond our comprehension.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi BK,
There is scripture that state no man has seen God but are there any that say no man has not heard God?
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So who is the ye? "Ye have neither heard his voice at any time"
The ye is the Jews that Jesus was speaking to. This statement that He made would mean anyone I would think.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
v. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
v. 37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
The word 'heard' in verse 37;
G191
akouō
A primary verb; to hear (in various senses): - give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.
The Father has the whole heavenly host at His service to do whatever He commands. So it would seem these messengers would be used to speak for God when needed.
Rev 5:2 "And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice..."
Rev 14:15 "And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice..."
Rev 19:17 "And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice..."
I hope this helps :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
p.s. I like what you said Joe, certainly God could use any means to speak.
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Great thread!!
(Joh 10:24) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
(Joh 10:25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
(Joh 10:26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Praise God
Sandie x
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Following verses may lend some guidance. I think it was more like a sign to people. It thundered or they heard a noise at that particular moment.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
CIY
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Hi BK & Craig,
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
I know that when I try to figure out the power and majesty of God my puny brain just cannot fathom very much at all.
The message that was proclaimed at the Lord's baptism was from the Father but was it really His voice? Do we presently have the technology to synthesize vocal communication? Could the Father have just manipulated the wind, air, water or whatever to proclaim His pleasure? Would He be limited to using His Spiritual vocal chords?
This is what came to mind when I saw this question presented.
His power is beyond our comprehension.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Hi Joe,
Thanks for taking the time to respond but I am afraid in order for me to understand what you are saying you will have to possibly simplify what it is you are saying.
What I think you are saying is that it was not Gods voice but God caused something oe some one else to speak on his behalf. Am I close?
Thanks
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Hi BK,
There is scripture that state no man has seen God but are there any that say no man has not heard God?
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So who is the ye? "Ye have neither heard his voice at any time"
The ye is the Jews that Jesus was speaking to. This statement that He made would mean anyone I would think.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
v. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
v. 37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
The word 'heard' in verse 37;
G191
akouō
A primary verb; to hear (in various senses): - give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.
The Father has the whole heavenly host at His service to do whatever He commands. So it would seem these messengers would be used to speak for God when needed.
Rev 5:2 "And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice..."
Rev 14:15 "And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice..."
Rev 19:17 "And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice..."
I hope this helps :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
p.s. I like what you said Joe, certainly God could use any means to speak.
If God was using an Angel or some thing else to do his speaking I would thin the verse would say some thing like "Thou art God the fathers beloved Son, in whom he is well pleased." and not "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Thanks
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Great thread!!
(Joh 10:24) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
(Joh 10:25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
(Joh 10:26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Praise God
Sandie x
Hi Sandie,
(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
This is Christs Sheep that hears Christs voice, is it not? Or can some hear Gods voice?
Thanks
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Following verses may lend some guidance. I think it was more like a sign to people. It thundered or they heard a noise at that particular moment.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
CIY
CIY,
I see what you are saying but if some hears Gods voice as a thunder and some understand it either way they heard it but from what I understand no one has heard his voice. The reason I believe this because God is spirit so he is an invisible God. He is not some man that has a voice. I whish I could explain this all better.
Any way thanks
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I do hope you guys are not getting impatient with me. I am trying to understand this.
Please correct me anywhere that I am wrong.
It seems the consensus is that it was God the father that said "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." but it was not his voice that said it????
Also I had a few other questions that I was curious about. Perhaps I will try to answer them and some can correct me where I am in error.
Who Saw the spirit like a dove?
Matthew, Mark and Luke witness that at least Christ saw the spirit like a dove. And John says that he also saw it. So perhaps Matthew, Mark and Luke did as well.
How does one see a spirit?
I have not a clue. But appears that we do not see it, but we see something represents it. As the scriptures I reference in the OP says it was like a dove. I would also like to point out that Matthew and Mark say that the spirits of God came down from the Heavens but Luke and John say it descended from heaven. So is this Heavens as in the sky or heaven where the Father Dwells?
Who's voice said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"? And who heard it?
No clue as to who's voice. But it appears That at least Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Christ and all the others that witnessed Christ baptism.
Thanks again guys
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Hi BK,
You are not alone in being confused. I don't understand how this works either ???
May God open our eyes and ears and give us understanding!!
Peace,
Diana
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Hi everyone,
Mtt. 3:17, and lo, a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.
Jn. 5:37 ...ye have neither heard his voice at any time
Heb. 3:7 Wherefore (as the holy ghost saith, today if you will hear His voice...
I'm thinking that the word "voice" in these three scriptures is the same Strong's number 5456. It's the same number in Revelation also, which is a book of symbols.
So perhaps the voice was given in the spirit to those that "heard" it. People would have heard the voice with their spiritual ears, not their physical ears. Heaven in this case, could mean God's kingdom which is not a geographical area, but is "at hand" and is closer to us than our breath. And not heaven, like up in the sky.
The scripture in Jn. 5:37 says you have not neither heard His voice at any time . So the voice in Mtt. 3:17 was in the spiritual, heavenly realm which is outside of time.
Just my take on this.
Ursula
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Hi BK & Craig,
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
I know that when I try to figure out the power and majesty of God my puny brain just cannot fathom very much at all.
The message that was proclaimed at the Lord's baptism was from the Father but was it really His voice? Do we presently have the technology to synthesize vocal communication? Could the Father have just manipulated the wind, air, water or whatever to proclaim His pleasure? Would He be limited to using His Spiritual vocal chords?
This is what came to mind when I saw this question presented.
His power is beyond our comprehension.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Hi Joe,
Thanks for taking the time to respond but I am afraid in order for me to understand what you are saying you will have to possibly simplify what it is you are saying.
What I think you are saying is that it was not Gods voice but God caused something oe some one else to speak on his behalf. Am I close?
Thanks
Hi BK,
Yes, that was my thought, with God all things are possibe.
We must approach this knowing that God's Word does not contradict itself. We read no man has heard the voice of the Father (John 5:37) yet He proclaimed His pleasure with His Son. God can manipulate nature animate or inanimate any way He pleases, right?
Think about this just as you or I could type an audible message with a voice synthesizer (like Stephen Hawking) He could use whatever means He desired to cause people to hear His message without actually having to speak it.
Perhaps even just the sound of His actual voice would be too much for us to bear in this present state in the flesh.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi BK,
You said: (Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
This is Christs Sheep that hears Christs voice, is it not? Or can some hear Gods voice?
Thanks
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were His sheep. I don't think it says anywhere that others heard it? But maybe i am wrong? Also, like Ursula said God's word is spirit.
God Bless
Sandie
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I will throw in my 2-cent’s worth regarding hearing the voice of the Father. As Ray has correctly pointed out, Christ came to reveal the Father. When He said ‘no-one has heard his voice’ I believe it was reference to the fact that the God of the Old Testament was Christ, and all visions, voices, leading and appearances was also Christ, not the Father.
All who were faithful in the Old Testament followed the voice of the Shepard, which was and still is Christ. Therefore, when the people present heard the voice of the Father, they may have otherwise thought that this was the same voice that Moses heard, where in fact it was not (Moses heard Christ).
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I do not know if this will make any sense to anyone but when I read these types of passages I think that the apostles "remember or recalled " the event like Jesus told them they would...
In the physical ....think about how popular John the Baptist was with the people ... he himelf was in awe at the baptism of Jesus. I think John heard it and possibly some of his followers or perhaps his followers heard only thunder then and now after the fact ....spiritually they knew what was "said. They knew they witness something out of the ordinary and they then left John and followed HIM (who at that time they knew nothing about HIM...think about it...)
Side Note: Call me crazy but I myself have "heard" this passage "spoken" ..two times. Once in a dream and once while reading the Word. Anyone else out there? It doesn't matter if no one else has ....because being the unworthy speck of dust that I am I know what I experienced..even if it sounds absurd.
It is important to remember that when Jesus was physically baptised ...He was washed with physical water.
Jesus is the Word and now we (our minds) are being spiritually washed with the Word (Him).
Baptism is also spiritually symbolic of death . Jesus was baptised physically also to symbolize the spiritual death of self/soul. We can't do this on our own.
Studying the Scriptures renews our mind and strengthens and conforms our souls souls so we can walk with Christ and this too Pleases the Father.
Beloved :) thanks for the spell check
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Hi Beloved,
Good to hear from you :)
I was thinking first the physical, then the spiritual. Was Jesus' baptism actually the physical example, that was to picture for us what our being baptised into His death represented? Then as He received the Holy Spirit in a physical manifestation, it represented when we receive it spiritually. Was He demonstrating physically what we will experience spiritually? It's interesting that the doves were a sin offering in the OT.
Lev. 5:7 "... two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering..."
Christ said in John 5: 37 "...Ye have neither heard His voice at any time..."
So this voice could not have been the Father's 'voice,' because you could say He doesn't have a voice.
Here is a excerpt from the transcript of Ray's 'Love' Bible study.
But you can’t tell ministers of the world, that this is not literally the way it is. They think that God almighty has finger nails, and therefore He must trim them. I wonder what He does with the trimmings. It’s just nonsense.
God does not have two eyes. This Kenneth Copeland, he said God the Father is a 6 foot man. I’m laughing saying this guy is insane. Listen, if God is a man then He has two eyes and that means He can’t see behind His head. Who’s so stupid to say, God can’t see behind His head, come on. God doesn’t have hands and arms or fingers and toes or hair. This is all anthropoid. If He were a man, He would do this by the strength of His arm. But He’s not a man, He’s God, and He’s spirit. Spirit is everywhere.
He talks about those, sitting on His right hand and His left hand. It’s spiritual, He has no right hand and left hand. He means if He were like a king on the physical earth, those that sit on His right hand, would be of a greater elevated position, than those on His left. He’s talking spirit, it’s a spiritual analogy. God doesn’t sit on a throne.
GOD IS EVERYWHERE! God is Spirit and God is invisible. Now that’s what He is.
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I do believe they heard a voice, but it wasn't the Father's voice. But He could use anything in the creation to speak for Him. I beliece it was an angel. Look at this from Rev., I think this could have been the angel that spoke.
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel coming down out of the heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, and his face was as the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire.
v. 3 And he cried with a loud voice, like a lion roaring. And when he had cried, seven thunders spoke their sounds.
v. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke their sounds, I was about to write. And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me,
I not sure if this all fits together right, but this is some things I found interesting.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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and he saw [eido] "perceived" the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
God spirit decended "like" a dove, And "A" Voice from heaven said: This is my beloved Son.
And were was the witness? Christ had left the waters. Were was Matthew Mark Luke?...They had not been chosen as yet..So who recorded this wonderous event?...It was none other that Christ himself that taught this to his apostles.
And what did he teach them? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Chris R
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I wrote Ray in regard to this topic and here is my question and Ray's reply;
Hi Ray,
We had a question posed on the Forum and I was hoping you would clear it up for us.
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The question was, Who's voice is this? Since no man has seen the Father or heard His voice who then could be speaking these Words?
We have had answers ranging from angels, to spiritual words that only could have been heard with spiritual ears to the Father manipulating the natural elements (air, clouds, wind, etc.) to proclaim His message of pleasure in His Son.
Do you have an insight to this question?
Thank you,
Joe
Ray's reply;
Hi Joe:
Actually there is no great mystery concerning this "voice" from heaven.
At Jesus' baptism we read: "And lo A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, saying, This is My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17). Mark 1:11 and Luke 3:22 say virtually the same words.
Again in in John 12:28 we read: "Father, Glorify Your Name. Then came there A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
On what is called 'The Mount of Transfiguration," we read this, "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold A VOICE OUT OF THE CLOUD, which said, This is My BelovedSon, in Whom I am well pleased; hear you Him" (Matt. 17::5).
And this was something James, John, and Peter never forgot: " but [we] were eyewitnesses of His Majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such A VOICE TO HIM FROM THE EXCELLENT GLORY, This is My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (II Pet. 1:17).
In all cases it is called "A voice," so this does not contradict the Scriptures which state that no man has ever heard the voice of God the Father. It was "a voice," but it is a message from God the Father." What is important is WHERE it came from, and WHAT the message was. In all cases the voice came FROM A HEAVENLY source, and the message established Jesus Christ as the greatest Human Who has ever lived, and the only one acknowledged by God, to "PLEASE" God.
The message is from God out of Heaven, but it is delivered by a messenger. A dozen times in the book of Revelation we have messages from God delivered out of Heaven by messengers.
God be with you all,
Ray
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hey just a thought but i had thought about the same thing recently and i am personaly thinking it is jesus who says this.he is the word of the father.i was thinking alot of the profits say the lord says this or that but when the lord speaks it i say this or that.we know jesus is the god of the old testiment which many times talks about his own coming.jesus talks about himself in the third person it seems to me because it is the word of the father.so i was thinking there are previous examples of jesus speaking like that.he is the word of the father and the father said this is my son and i am well pleased with him.there is only one word of the father and jesus reveals the father.i dont see why jesus couldnt do that he was the one who spoke in the old testiment.
josh
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Thanks Joe. That helped me get more of an understanding.
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Hey Hi BK,
Plez dnt feel we r gettn impatient wit U, az I nO hw ur feeln, U jus wana know sO sO bad lol :D, GOD will reveal all 2 U in His time & I supose U dnt wana hear d@ frm me eitha :), But! my little input, I believe it couldve been da wind or n e way GOD desired 2 make himself Heard, az it does say no 1 has heard the VOICE of GOD, n which would b True az it aint His voice but! His words, Well dis jus da way I c it, hear it lol! , Keep strong BK, dis is gr8!!.
muchLOVE!! Pera