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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Gregor on October 03, 2007, 06:23:59 AM
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Greetings,
LOF Part 1 types (as in Adam corresponding with Christ, Rom. 5:12-21)
So what does that make Eve a type of, and what signifigance is there in that she was deceived?
Here's what I've found, to get the conversation going, but I'll leave it up to you to look up and read the scripture references and then make your comments.
Gen. 2:18-25
v.18 a helper
v.21 deep sleep, side was opened
v.22 rib from man made into woman, presented to man
v.23 woman taken out of man
v.24 man leaves father and mother, two become one
v.25 both naked, unashamed
Eph.5:30-32 Christ and the Church
Jn. 14:16 a helper
Jn.19:33,34 Jesus was already dead, side pierced, opened and out came blood and water.
Blood: Lev.17:11; Jn. 6:63
Water: Eph. 5:25-27; Titus 3:5,6
Additional references: Jn.3:5-7,13-17; 2Cor.11:2,3; Acts 22:16; Rom.10:8-11; Rev.19:7-9; Jn.17:11
I look forward to hearing your thoughts :)
G.
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Thanks for starting a new post G,this helps to keep issues separate. I promise to post a response to this question once I get back from my doctors appointment.
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I can't go as deep as you may be looking for G,but I will give you what I have. When I heard this question I thought about your post where you mentioned equal liberty,prior to the sin,or transgression.Gen 3 vs 16thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee. Galatians 3vs 28there is nether male or female for you all are the sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Prior to the fall I believe it was the same. If they had not sinned than Jesus would have been their head as he is the church's head and there would not have been any need for Adam to have the rule over her.,God set up a chain of command.For the purpose of order. After the fall God put us in positions,Husband head of the wife.Eve sinning without Adam would have brought judgement on Eve only when Adam followed judgement fell on all.Since he was the head then everything gets referred back to Adam It is the cost for being the Boss.
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Greetings,
LOF Part 1 types (as in Adam corresponding with Christ, Rom. 5:12-21)
So what does that make Eve a type of, and what signifigance is there in that she was deceived?
Here's what I've found, to get the conversation going, but I'll leave it up to you to look up and read the scripture references and then make your comments.
Gen. 2:18-25
v.18 a helper
v.21 deep sleep, side was opened
v.22 rib from man made into woman, presented to man
v.23 woman taken out of man
v.24 man leaves father and mother, two become one
v.25 both naked, unashamed
Eph.5:30-32 Christ and the Church
Jn. 14:16 a helper
Jn.19:33,34 Jesus was already dead, side pierced, opened and out came blood and water.
Blood: Lev.17:11; Jn. 6:63
Water: Eph. 5:25-27; Titus 3:5,6
Additional references: Jn.3:5-7,13-17; 2Cor.11:2,3; Acts 22:16; Rom.10:8-11; Rev.19:7-9; Jn.17:11
I look forward to hearing your thoughts :)
G.
THis is an article i wrote a WHILE back.
Begin article;
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
With that in mind let us continue;
Gen 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
What we are being told here is that as humanity [eve] came out of Christ [adam], so did Christ come out from the Father;
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Now many of you are probably wondering where i got 'humanity' out of adam and eve, well let me show you;
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
What are we told about the 'eve,' or 'all living things?'
Genesis 3:16 Thy desire shall be to [properly translated AGAINST] thy husband and he shall rule over thee"
Now many see this as teaching that Man is to rule over women, but how did the apostle paul see this?
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Ephesians 5:30-32 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Adam is the figure of Christ, He is the visible, making the invisible clearly seen. Eve represents humanity, and all of us, likewise 'the church.' This shows how the church, and all humanity will be ruled over by 'Christ.'
Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
We are also told that this 'women' the 'mother of all living' [eve] is naturaly against her 'husband' or 'man'[adam]. What does this reveal to us? It shows us that all of humanity [eve] is naturaly AGAINST God [ adam the fire of Christ to come], by the very sinful nature he was created in.
Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity [Deep seated hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So understanding that Adam is the figure of Christ, and Eve represents all humanity, we can understand Eve is 'bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh' for adam, so is all humanity for Christ, we all came out of Christ, and we all are 'in Christ.'
Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Colossians 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist
Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Romans 11:36 "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Talking to pagan Athenians, Paul make this amazing statement:
Act 17:28 For in him[God, through Christ] we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring
Now we are coming to the point and reason i am writting to you and i hope you recieve it all, keeping in mind what has been said;
1 Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
What is really being said here? Isn't the fact that adam wasn't decieved, but eve was, make adams sin far worse then eve's because he willingly partook of that fruit when he was not decieved?
The point being made here is NOT that adam's sin was far worse, the point is that Adam, willingly partook of the FRUIT OF DEATH, so that he would NOT be SEPERATED from Eve.
Likewise, Christ died for HUMANITY, so Humanity would NOT be seperated from Him.
Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
What is the ultimate point of understanding that Adam willingly died with eve, so to not be seperated from her, what is the point of seeing this as a shadow of Christ dieng for the 'mother of ALL LIVING?' It is to see that;
1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Feel free to discuss.
PS THIS WAS AN ARTICLE I WROTE A WHILE BACK, SOME THINGS MAY BE INACCURATE DUE TO MY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING BEFORE. IS ANYTHING IS INNACURATE PLEASE LET ME KNOW, AND I WILL GLADLY CHANGE IT WITH PROPER UNDERSTANDING AND GUIDANCE.
I have one LAST question;
Is CHRIST really the HEAD OF EVERYMAN? EVEN HITLER?
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Thanks and God bless!
Alex
PPS. Caps for emphasis and to get your attention, not yelling :D
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Hello Alex,
Kudos on an excellent analysis of types, shadows, similitudes and parallels. I enjoyed it and got a lot out of it.
A while back I had been working on the angle of why Eve was deceived and Adam was not. Is there something in the makeup of Eve that makes her more prone to the heart and therefore requiring some of Adam's control. What was taken from Adam that would require this? How does Eve's role as mother tie in with these things? It seems that what is in Eve was once in Adam. Is it the opposites kinds of things that are attracting for them to become one? Just a few things from a different angle that I thought about.
Is CHRIST really the HEAD OF EVERYMAN? EVEN HITLER?
I thought you answered that question quite nicely with those great verses you posted about the Christ reconciling things to Himself. However, here are some verses from Ephesians to consider.
Eph 1:20 which he energised in the Christ, when he raised him from among the dead, and seated him at his right hand in the heavenlies,
Eph 1:21 Over-above all principality, authority, and power, and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the coming one,
Eph 1:22 And did put, all things, in subjection beneath his feet. And gave him to be head over all things unto the assembly,
Eph 1:23 Which, indeed, is his body, the fulness of him who, the all things in all, is for himself filling up.
Be blessed
feat
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The point being made here is NOT that adam's sin was far worse, the point is that Adam, willingly partook of the FRUIT OF DEATH, so that he would NOT be SEPERATED from Eve.
Likewise, Christ died for HUMANITY, so Humanity would NOT be seperated from Him.
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Alex, very nice post! I picked this part out because it really spoke to me. As you pointed out, Christ came out from the Father and Adam was created by Christ and Eve came out from Adam. And out from Eve comes the rest of humanity. Definitely a pattern. And in this pattern I see something powerful in that Eve was a living part of Adam. Something in Adam was taken to make Eve, so we could say that a piece is now outside of himself but still connected to him. But in the union of lovemaking the two become one flesh again. A husband must have his bride to be complete. I don't think Adam had any other choice but to die with Eve, at least not from his perspective. If she were to die without him a piece of himself would be forever lost. This must have been inconceivable to him, he would have been incomplete!
In this I see a loving and beautiful parallel in that Adam's necessity to be one with Eve is the same necessity that Christ has to be one with his bride. He must have us back or he would be forever incomplete. And that means each and every one of us. God the Father must view Jesus as a piece of Himself that He simply cannot exist without. And Jesus views all those he created as pieces of Himself that He simply cannot do without. It is inconceivable to Jesus that even one soul should be lost or separated from Him forever because He simply would not be complete!
Maybe God could have created entities that were somehow not a part of himself, but being Love and being a personal and intimate God he chose to birth out of himself....what was this like for God? Who knows, but I think we have a clue in the human birth. Whatever pain, toil, and struggle is involved in giving birth the joy of sharing life with a child you've had this intimate experience with surpasses any pain.
Interesting thread guys!
Peace and love,
Diana
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I enjoyed your thread Alex,it is nice to see what God can do in the mind of anyone that submitts to him. Types and shadows are throughout the bible and this is a good illustration of that. I personally have a problem with the Adam dying with his wife as not to be separated from her. Not that I can't see the sense of it. Just the romantic part of it that suggest something noble about his decision to disobey God. Love should have caused him to lead her to the tree of life not the tree of death. But that's just me.Good post brother.
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In Jesus, holiness and humanity become one…
…and [we] will come to be one with Him - amen!
-jER
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Greetings all,
Great posts and thanks!
Perhaps the "rib" is a type of the Spirit too, (which may make Eve a shadow too?)
shadows (as in the law being a shadow of good things to come, Heb. 10:1)
The natural rib of man is there to give structure to the body, as well as to protect the inner organs/parts ie: the heart/lungs. The Spirit fulfills this function in the "spiritual body." It is this Spirit that we (Gentiles/carnal man) receive by faith in order to become children in the family of God. Now I'm getting into faith (a little off topic, but interconnected just like all the systems that make up a body). The just shall live by faith. (Gal.3 explains the promise is through faith, and that the promise came prior to the law, and that it is only promised to one seed - Jesus) Note vs.23-25: But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. This is why it is of utmost importance that we become "one" with Jesus, through faith, by his Spirit.
I tend to agree with sonofone in that I don't like the romanticizing of disobedience. Perhaps there is a further explanation, in that there is a connection between heart and mind. I read in Gen.3:11,12 that God doesn't ask "Why did you eat," he asks "Who told you that you're naked? Have you eaten..." and Adam truthfully replies. So he doesn't even blame Eve, he answers the questions. I think the more accurate explanation of why he ate would involve legalities, not just emotions:
Heb.9:16,17: For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
This is why Christ had to die, to bring the "will" of the Father into effect. And we know that God loves mercy over judgement, but must Himself remain true to his word and be righteous.
All in all, I've really enjoyed everyone's input and hope we can all continue to grow.
All the best in Christ,
G.
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I enjoyed your thread Alex,it is nice to see what God can do in the mind of anyone that submitts to him. Types and shadows are throughout the bible and this is a good illustration of that. I personally have a problem with the Adam dying with his wife as not to be separated from her. Not that I can't see the sense of it. Just the romantic part of it that suggest something noble about his decision to disobey God. Love should have caused him to lead her to the tree of life not the tree of death. But that's just me.Good post brother.
I'm sorry but i disagree.
Adam does not represent Jesus in anyway in how he disobeyed God. Adam is merely a shadow or type of Christ. He ISN'T Christ Himself. There is a difference.
Adam as a shadow and type can represent Christ in one way, but not be Christ in another. Understand?
Obviously He doesn't represent Christ in disobeying God.
Much like how David represents the elect in a way, but not when he says 'Kill all my enemies and make it bloody.' That is most definatly not what God would say through His elect, nor the thoughts and desires they hold inside them.
Theres a difference between being a shadow, and being the actual object. I think you are not able to see that. Thats very important when it comes to distinguishing these types and shadows.
So i'm not saying adam is Christ, God forbid, what i am saying though is adam was a shadow and type of Christ in certain ways.
Colossians 2:16-18 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body[casting the shadow] is of Christ.
Hope this helps ya.
God bless,
Alex
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Greetings all,
Great posts and thanks!
Perhaps the "rib" is a type of the Spirit too, (which may make Eve a shadow too?)
shadows (as in the law being a shadow of good things to come, Heb. 10:1)
The natural rib of man is there to give structure to the body, as well as to protect the inner organs/parts ie: the heart/lungs. The Spirit fulfills this function in the "spiritual body." It is this Spirit that we (Gentiles/carnal man) receive by faith in order to become children in the family of God. Now I'm getting into faith (a little off topic, but interconnected just like all the systems that make up a body). The just shall live by faith. (Gal.3 explains the promise is through faith, and that the promise came prior to the law, and that it is only promised to one seed - Jesus) Note vs.23-25: But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. This is why it is of utmost importance that we become "one" with Jesus, through faith, by his Spirit.
I tend to agree with sonofone in that I don't like the romanticizing of disobedience. Perhaps there is a further explanation, in that there is a connection between heart and mind. I read in Gen.3:11,12 that God doesn't ask "Why did you eat," he asks "Who told you that you're naked? Have you eaten..." and Adam truthfully replies. So he doesn't even blame Eve, he answers the questions. I think the more accurate explanation of why he ate would involve legalities, not just emotions:
Heb.9:16,17: For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
This is why Christ had to die, to bring the "will" of the Father into effect. And we know that God loves mercy over judgement, but must Himself remain true to his word and be righteous.
All in all, I've really enjoyed everyone's input and hope we can all continue to grow.
All the best in Christ,
G.
The very reason Christ died on the Cross was to show that God indeed loved humanity. Although it was for sin, it was also to display love. Is this not emotional?
"For God THUS [Meaning in THIS MANNER] loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "
Again, i think you guys are takeing a shadow, and confusing it with the reality. That is not what i was doing or saying.
God bless,
Alex
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I enjoyed your thread Alex,it is nice to see what God can do in the mind of anyone that submitts to him. Types and shadows are throughout the bible and this is a good illustration of that. I personally have a problem with the Adam dying with his wife as not to be separated from her. Not that I can't see the sense of it. Just the romantic part of it that suggest something noble about his decision to disobey God. Love should have caused him to lead her to the tree of life not the tree of death. But that's just me.Good post brother.
Hi All,
It would not be the first time in either Biblical or secular history that the lust/love has influenced a man to do the wrong thing and sin, often leading to despair and/or misery for both, men have lied, stolen, cheated and killed out of the desire (love?) for a woman. Men have also left their first (carnal) love, their own wives to persue the "other woman."
Of course a perfect godly (Spirit of Christ) love would not allow for this but a lustful, carnal (Adam) love would, could and does it every single day. Physical, earthly love is imperfect and self serving, only the love that manifests itself from the Spirit of Christ is perfect and selfless.
First the physical (Adam) then the Spiritual (Christ).
A shadow is a dark outline, a barely perceptible image of what is actually casting the shadow.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I think the more accurate explanation of why he ate would involve legalities, not just emotions:
Heb.9:16,17: For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
This is why Christ had to die, to bring the "will" of the Father into effect. And we know that God loves mercy over judgement, but must Himself remain true to his word and be righteous.
You then say,
The very reason Christ died on the Cross was to show that God indeed loved humanity. Although it was for sin, it was also to display love. Is this not emotional?
Greetings,
I'm not saying that emotions weren't involved in both Adam and Christ's decisions and I don't think that I'm confused on this issue at all. I agree that Christ died to demonstrate love, but suggest that Adam died because of his lust. I disagree with both you and Ray in how you use "love" to describe what Adam felt towards Eve. I don't think that Adam truly loved Eve, but rather he lusted for her, made an idol of her in his heart, placing his desire for his own pleasure above the obedience to God - even if it meant he would die (the epitomy of carnal thinking). As Joe put it, first the natural, then the spiritual. We are in agreement in that Christ died for the remission of sin, which demonstrates love, but ultimately my point is that Christ paying the penalty, rather than us, confirms the righteousness of God. God had to stay true to his word, keep his promise to Abraham, and find a way to show mercy (salvation) to us apart from the law. All of this further demonstrates that it isn't about whether or not you or I am right, but that God is right.
All the best in Christ,
G.
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I think the more accurate explanation of why he ate would involve legalities, not just emotions:
Heb.9:16,17: For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
This is why Christ had to die, to bring the "will" of the Father into effect. And we know that God loves mercy over judgement, but must Himself remain true to his word and be righteous.
You then say,
The very reason Christ died on the Cross was to show that God indeed loved humanity. Although it was for sin, it was also to display love. Is this not emotional?
Greetings,
I'm not saying that emotions weren't involved in both Adam and Christ's decisions and I don't think that I'm confused on this issue at all. I agree that Christ died to demonstrate love, but suggest that Adam died because of his lust. I disagree with both you and Ray in how you use "love" to describe what Adam felt towards Eve. I don't think that Adam truly loved Eve, but rather he lusted for her, made an idol of her in his heart, placing his desire for his own pleasure above the obedience to God - even if it meant he would die (the epitomy of carnal thinking). As Joe put it, first the natural, then the spiritual. We are in agreement in that Christ died for the remission of sin, which demonstrates love, but ultimately my point is that Christ paying the penalty, rather than us, confirms the righteousness of God. God had to stay true to his word, keep his promise to Abraham, and find a way to show mercy (salvation) to us apart from the law. All of this further demonstrates that it isn't about whether or not you or I am right, but that God is right.
All the best in Christ,
G.
I think you are mis understanding me greg.
I certainly feel that adams love toward eve was tainted with his physical lust for her and sexual desire, but to say that adam had no love for eve, i don't know if we have any really proof of that.
Perhaps you are thinking of the term that i am useing love for, as the term that we would give to God who LOVES us. Certainly God is not LUSTFUL of anything, so it is different, but when i speak of adams love for eve, most certainly there is lust involved. Is this not how any of our relationships with that certain special someone is? Is there not that first physical attraction, THAT LUST?
God be with you,
Alex
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Absolutely Alex, that is why even we (believers, walking in the spirit) are not yet perfect, but only a shadow of what we too will become. Adam may have known love in part, as do we, but it was his lust (idolatry of the heart, self seeking) that would make him choose his wife over the commandment of God (again, the epitomy of carnal thinking, of which we're all guilty).
Eph.4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The reality is, that if we did love in its purest form, we would never get married, and we would be as it is in heaven, neither married, nor given in marriage, but one with God (Imitating Christ). Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). This too is a part of the plan.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
1Cor.13
[4] Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
[5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
[6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
[7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
The bolded qualities in vs.4-8 are the areas we (Adam) fall short (now, in part) while yet in the flesh.
[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Unlike Adam (us), Christ laid down his life in obedience to the command of God, not as the result of disobedience. Adam may have thought he was doing a noble thing (in his mind, therefore vanity), but our best is not even close to what God requires in righteousness. God clearly states:
Isa.40:17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity
Jer.2:5 Thus saith the LORD, What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and are become vain?
The vanity found in lust is part of God's plan, a shadow of the love and relationship we will oneday know in full. Everything in His timing. Again, this isn't about whether or not you or I am right, but that God is right. Maybe we're both misunderstanding eachother ??? due to ambiguous wording?
All the best in Christ,
G.
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Yes greg, it is the 'ambiguous' wording, that is causing the confusion.
I believe that we are both in agreement.
Perhaps i should have been a bit more clear in that, i apoligize for the confusion. I do agree that adam did lust after eve but i don't think any harm or injustice is done to say that he also loved her the way all carnal beings would love there significant other. It most surely isn't perfect, and it is definatly tainted by lustful and sexual desires, but nonetheless i don't think it would make it any less true to say that he loved her, instead of he lusted after her.
I see your point though. Good eyes!
I think ill replace the word LOVE there, for LUST, just so this confusion doesn't happen again, perhaps with a different audience.
God bless greg and thanks for the imput!
Love to you,
Alex
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Evie is Christ too a part that many church doctrine does not support but if you look at Proverbs 31 you will see the very nature of Christ in the virtuous woman. To say Christ was female also will make some to cover their ears and scream but as I studied the words He is both These are positions female and male of the very nature of God. People flow in and out of them. this is a deep thought like erternal salvation for all. As long as we think one species is not cable of grasping Christ as well as the other we will not be able to walk in The Kingdom of Christ Peggy
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Hi Peggy, :)
Did you read the new transcript Kat posted by Ray; Esther-the Destiny of Women? It's pretty encouraging.
Ursula :)
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Ursula yes i have I do not receive the teaching of the church on this subject. The holy Spirit has been showing me in scriptures and by His illumination of those scriptures that these are positions female and male not what body parts you have. In Christ there is neither male nor female. The Holy Spirit began to draw me out of the worlds thinking which is all over and especially bad in the middle east right now but was not so always. I posted about this in general discussion thank you peggy
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Hi,Peggy,I asked Dianne to start a post on this issue on last week and now see that you have started a post on this today. I know that you laid out a pretty in depth post of this issue and asked people to think before posting a response,so I have not responded to it as of yet. I would love for you to break your understanding down in laymans terms so that I could feel free to give my input.
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Hi Gregor,
I tend to agree with the quote from your message on types as follows:
The reality is, that if we did love in its purest form, we would never get married, and we would be as it is in heaven, neither married, nor given in marriage, but one with God (Imitating Christ). Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). This too is a part of the plan.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
HOWEVER: How does this fit in with the need to Adam and Eve to generate children?
Yes, it is part of God's plan, but then is lust the only motivator for men? Do you include the desire for children as a lustful emotion in men and in women?
Thanks for your comments. indianabob
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Absolutely Alex, that is why even we (believers, walking in the spirit) are not yet perfect, but only a shadow of what we too will become. Adam may have known love in part, as do we, but it was his lust (idolatry of the heart, self seeking) that would make him choose his wife over the commandment of God (again, the epitomy of carnal thinking, of which we're all guilty
Eph.4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The reality is, that if we did love in its purest form, we would never get married, and we would be as it is in heaven, neither married, nor given in marriage, but one with God (Imitating Christ). Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). This too is a part of the plan.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Hi Gregor,
I have been away for far to long. :)
I bolded your words because as they are worded, it would seem you believe that God had no say in it at all. Really? :) I am thinking that Adam had very little choice in the matter. By no means am I suggesting that God "forced" Adam to lust over Eve; rather, I am simply suggesting that Adam was not well enough equipped Spiritually to do anything but what he did.
This of course puts the entire onus back on us whom by our own admission, live by the Spirit:
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Who then has caused the greater wrong? Adam, who was blind to the Spirit, or those who sin still, even though the have Spiritual eyes enough to see? Of course this is a rhetorical question. :)
Please know that I am posting the following Scripture in reference to me, myself and I alone.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
The simple fact that each one of us has only been given what God wants us to have. Some more than others, and some less.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
How then we dare even look upon the deeds of another?
You then state and I quote: "Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). "
I think perhaps you have forgotten the instruction given to both Adam and Eve by God himself. ;)
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ah, but were they married? I will let the Scriptures answer this.
Matt 19:4 “Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
Matt 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ ?
Matt 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
Yes, God made Eve out of Adam, they were indeed one flesh. They were blessed and told to be: "fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"
This is in stark contrast to your reasoning behind marriage. :)
Once again, I will ask a similar question as before. If God has planned one to marry, who will stand up to him and say: 'NO!!'
I hope I have not offended anyone.
Love in Christ our redeemer,
Darren
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Hi Gregor,
I tend to agree with the quote from your message on types as follows:
The reality is, that if we did love in its purest form, we would never get married, and we would be as it is in heaven, neither married, nor given in marriage, but one with God (Imitating Christ). Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). This too is a part of the plan.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
HOWEVER: How does this fit in with the need to Adam and Eve to generate children?
Yes, it is part of God's plan, but then is lust the only motivator for men? Do you include the desire for children as a lustful emotion in men and in women?
Thanks for your comments. indianabob
Greetings,
Hopefully you've read Rays teachings on how it's a myth that Adam and Eve were created perfectly in God's image but then "fell" after eating the forbidden fruit?? Adding to that, here's what I see:
We know from Gen.2:4 that Gen.1:28 is not chronologically factual, but is the "birthing/creating" or history of God's plan, and that it includes blessing man and populating the earth. We also know from Gen. 2:5 that the "fall" of man is part of Gods plan, because Gen.3:23 says God sent him (Adam) out of the garden to "till the ground." thereby fulfilling the need mentioned in Gen.2:5. Now, back to Gen.1:28, we know that the only way God could truly "bless" us (in our carnal nature) would be to grace us with His son to complete the process of creating us in His image (spiritual nature). We see that God tells the serpent in Gen.3:15 that Christ is coming and then in vs.16 tells the woman that "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;..." It's all part of the plan from the beginning. If the "brood of vipers" (children of the serpent) and the unbelievers never crucified Christ, then we could never be "saved" and never be completed in the image of God. God's plan will be completed. One last thing, Jesus says (Mt.19:11,12) "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.
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Greetings Darren,
I can see how you concluded what you did by my words (and lack thereof). Please read my above post for some clarification. His ways are not our ways. First the physical, then the spiritual - I think lust is a shadow of love. I think procreation is a shadow of God producing the children of God (born of the spirit). I believe it is all part of God's plan. Who are we, what is sin, what power could possibly thwart the plan of God? None.
Peace
G.
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Hi Gregor,
I am glad that I caused no offense. :)
You responded with: I believe it is all part of God's plan. Who are we, what is sin, what power could possibly thwart the plan of God? None.
And I agree 100%!!!!! NONE!! :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Greetings Darren and all,
I am very grateful to be a part of this forum. I recently found the following article of Rays (Thanks Kat, keep up the good work!!): (Sorry I don't know how to post the actual link :P)
forums.bible-truths.com > > Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings > Transcripts of Ray's Audio's > Biblestudy on 'Love'
The more I learn, the less I really know. ;) I'm grateful that Ray has done so much of the homework for our benefit, and I hope that I will learn not to use such ambiguous words which cause confusion. Mt.7:7,8.
All the best,
in Christ,
G.
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Hey G.
Just read this thread... did you read that section on Ray's "Adam and Eve" transcript where the word 'rib' did not get translated correctly? Very insightful. Is rather lengthly... I have put together an abbreviated version if you would be interested.
:)
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Greetings DuluthGA,
I vaguely remember something I read about the rib, but would love to read it again. Thanks.
G.
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Here is link from 06 Mobile conference: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html "Adam and Eve" is about two-thirds of the way down. I haven't changed anything, just left a lot out (pages) about the creation days and the Garden of Eden:
From the Hebrew Interlinear, reading from right to left:
Gen 1: 27 And He is creating, Elohim, the human in the image of Him, in the image of Elohim He creates him, male and female He creates them.
And now from the Concordant Version:
Gen1: 27 And creating is the Alueim [God] humanity in His Image. In the Image of the Alueim [God] He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
Did you get that? God is creating man in OUR image. Clearly the point is made that creating mankind in the image of God is in the indefinite tense…. and not in the past tense as in the King James and most bibles. The creation continues.
God wants children in HIS VERY OWN IMAGE. This is God’s plan. This is God’s purpose. This is the reason for the creation of humanity. This is “The WILL of the Father."
New Testament, Rom 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be [complete is yet future] CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
There are two things here. Man is created in the image of God…. But did you catch it? The female is created in the image of God… therefore God is female. But we call Him “Him,” so He’s male too. HE’S BOTH.
….. when it comes to male and female, they are both equally in the image of God, or being made in the image of God, or in the image of God He’s making ’them.’ It’s both ways…. It’s repeated twice there.
So God created man in His image, but then in the image of God, “He created them male and female.” Female is in the image of God, God is female. God is male and female. Femininity is in God. That’s why He took that and made a representation of that, in the form of a woman. That’s God! Just as much as the man is God.
I think some of you women have felt slighted over the years, that God is not a woman…. God in His image He created a woman, yet the only way He could do that is that woman was in God. And then He created out of that (from Himself) the woman.
So when we talk about the man and the woman now, we’re talking about in the image of God Himself, in both of them.
I don’t want to get in trouble with this next thing here. I’ve shied away from it a little bit. That is, how long were these days of creation….But I have felt for many, many years that the creation days are not 24-hour days.
**** Insert: Here Ray goes on at considerable length--- about the garden of Eden--- 4 pages about it—plus how each of the seven days of creation were probably a long time each – and how it all jives with the actual age of the earth per the measurement of 2096 meters of ice core in Russia that puts the earth at about 100,060 years old …. And his point is… so maybe the earth is more than 6000 years old.
… In my heart and mind I don’t believe that Adam tilled the garden and took care of the garden..... I don’t know how big the garden was… then he named all the animals and everything in a few hours before sunset. (?) [Naming animals Gen 2: 19, (guessing) maybe 6000 species ....... I just don’t believe that. I believe it took certainly months if not years.
…. Can’t you see the longing here (of Adam while he was busy doing all that), over a long period of time? I think it was at least years. He didn’t have a mate, he looked for one and even God admitted that it was not good for man to continue forever without a mate [Gen 2: 18]. I’ll make him one, but not today. Now, then He says but there was none found for him. [Gen 2: 20]
So we’re told God took a rib and closed it back up and made a woman out of the rib. Now He then said, wake up Adam I’ve got something for you. He wakes up Adam and He brings him to the woman Eve. [Gen 2: 21-23]
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
[22] And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
[23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Is that what he said? Would you like to know what the Hebrew says?.... The Concordance didn’t even get it right…... But I got 5 other translations that got it right…. [see further down.] That is not what he said. He was longing for a mate, God acknowledged it was not good for the man to be alone, and said I’ll make him a mate….. where did the woman come from? The woman is in the image of God. God didn’t make man and then make woman out of the side or image of man. NO, it plainly says:
Gen 1: 27 And He is creating, Elohim, the human in the image of Him, in the image of Elohim He creates him, male and female He creates them.
Female is created in the image of God. There is female in God. God is female just as much as God is male. Where did HE get the idea of femininity? It’s in Him, it’s a part of Him. Adam is longing for this part of him that is missing. Maybe he didn’t fully understand what testosterone was, but he was feeling the effects of it and not only that, he had nobody to talk to. He talked to God….. And (Adam might say to God)… And I noticed all those animals I named, they all have a partner. I was wondering why it is I don’t have a partner God, why is that?
So… the female came out from God. That’s where it originated, God is female just as much as He is male and now He creates the man, and the man has no female counterpart. The animals do, he doesn’t. But he longed for it and God admits that he shouldn’t be alone like this. I’ve got to make him a mate, but not today. I’m saying it was years later.
So He take something out of Adam (notice He didn’t make the woman out of the dust of the ground,) He took something out of Adam to make the female. We’re told it was a rib. I think we’re told wrong.
Adam looked at her and instantly knew? But that’s not what he said, he didn’t say “This is bone of my bone.” Here is what he said, I’ll give you the translation from James Moffet. He looked at her and said, “this AT LAST is bone of my bone!”……. where it says, “this is now,” that word ‘now’ means “at last,” finally someone for me.
The New World Translation says “This is at last bone of my bone.”
The New American Version says “This one at last is bone of my bone.”
The New Revised Standard Version says “This at last is bone of my bone.”
The Living Bible says and I like this one “This is it! She is part of my own bones and flesh, this is it, Adam exclaimed.
So first of all he was excited. I mean, what a beauty, I mean come on, all for me…. He waited a long time, finally after all these years, finally someone for me…. How did he know it was bone of his bone?
…. God didn’t say, Adam I know you’re going to wonder where this woman came from. I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her. No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said, that’s me, you come from me. How did he know that? He looked, he had something before he went to sleep.... he had something, and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn’t have it anymore. She had it! What do you suppose that was? He, just like God, was male and female. God is male and female, Adam was male and female. God took the female part and made a woman out of it. Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it’s over there. She came from me, that’s bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.
Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this? How God is longing for a complement, a counterpart, someone to complement someone. It says a counterpart in the Greek, a complement, or a help meet… to make him complete.
That’s what God is longing for. Where is it going to come from? Out of Him. He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making.
…In the Hebrew the word is # 6763 – tsela, and it can be translated ‘rib’ and ‘door side’ and ‘chamber.’ In Ezekiel, 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber. A chamber-maid is usually someone who tends to the house, but specifically the bedroom. If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room. The bedroom is your most private room. Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts. Can you put it together? This is not a rib. He took the femininity from him and made a woman. First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.
:)
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Thanks for the info DuluthGA.
Ray's quotes in blue, mine in black:
…. God didn’t say, Adam I know you’re going to wonder where this woman came from. I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her. No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said, that’s me, you come from me. How did he know that?
From observing the animals. I would imagine that after seeing a baby animal born it would be obvious to Adam that a bird begets a bird, and a cat begets a cat, etc. etc and therefore a human begets a human. Afterall, like Ray presumes, it probably would have been a long time that Adam spent naming and observing the animals. This is also where I would presume that Adam knew what a father and mother were, Gen.2:24, considering he had neither in the flesh. I also imagine this is where Adam learned the visible differences between the male, penis bearing animals, and their female, breast bearing animal counterparts.
He looked, he had something before he went to sleep.... he had something, and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn’t have it anymore. She had it! What do you suppose that was?
Eve maybe had long hair as a covering? and breasts (obviously like other mamals for nursing their young), and what was she missing that he had - obviously the male penis (like the male animals have)?
He, just like God, was male and female. God is male and female, Adam was male and female. God took the female part and made a woman out of it. Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it’s over there. She came from me, that’s bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.
I think Ray's mistaken here. God has no physical body, Adam did. I highly doubt that Adam was a hermaphrodite or a pseudohermaphrodite.
Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this? How God is longing for a complement, a counterpart, someone to complement someone. It says a counterpart in the Greek, a complement, or a help meet… to make him complete.
The spiritual connection I see is that God does display both male/female characteristics:
- source of life (Combination of characteristics & result of male & female's union). In the natural when the "two shall become one" their combined characteristics are turned into one new baby.
- giver of the Seed
- Nurturer
- Comforter
- Protector
- Help meet
- I'm sure the list could go on.
But let's remember, God is spirit. In the spirit, we too can posess both male and female qualities (ie: fruit of the spirit) and one day will be neither male nor female, neither married, nor given in marriage, and also one with God. Again, we're getting into speculation as to what this means - see the threads on our resurrected bodies. Do angels, part of the heavenly host, have reproductive organs or do their bodies look like a Ken/Barbie doll below the belt, including the exclusion of an anus?? Do angels have belly buttons?? Speculation that I just don't know the answer to at this point.
That’s what God is longing for. Where is it going to come from? Out of Him. He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making.
Sons and Daughters, more accurately children of God. Regardless of our "gender thinking" we will always be children of God, even when we've become perfected after the resurrection - just like in the natural we grow up and move out from under our parents authority, but will always be biologically sons & daughters. Spiritually, when we grow up we are not under the authority of the Mosaic Law, but under the Law of the Spirit, we become one with God. Here on earth we are not yet perfected, but then we shall be.
…In the Hebrew the word is # 6763 – tsela, and it can be translated ‘rib’ and ‘door side’ and ‘chamber.’ In Ezekiel, 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber. A chamber-maid is usually someone who tends to the house, but specifically the bedroom. If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room. The bedroom is your most private room. Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts. Can you put it together? This is not a rib. He took the femininity from him and made a woman. First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.
Again, I think this is grasping at straws. I don't think that Adam was a hermaphrodite/pseudohermaphrodite. The word can be translated as rib and when left as that it still makes just as perfect sense. God made Adam out of dust; I'm sure an actual rib wouldn't be much of a stretch for God. Remember the vision in Ezk.37? God can take bones out of the "valley" and cover them in flesh. (Does valley of the shadow of death ring a bell seeing as we're talking types?) Do you think Adam was actually missing anything visible? Only breasts would be visibly missing - Remember the hair (pubic too) is a covering. The idea that Adam had internal sexual organs ie: uterus/overies that were removed would not be a visible thing, even on Eve. Nor would the horomones which largely determine our physical traits that differ between man/woman.
On a happy note, I can agree with Ray saying the correct translation would include the phrase "Now at last" or to that effect at the beginning of the verse 2:23.
Just my opinion, so take it as you will.
Your brother in Christ,
G.
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Pretty good Gregor, but I think you missed a few points.
Ray said: ...he didn’t have it anymore. She had it! What do you suppose that was? I'm thinking it was not long hair or breasts... but the female external genitalia. Not the penis, bonk! Adam still had his.
I think Ray's mistaken here. God has no physical body,
Gregor, c'mon... of course Ray was being figurative here. Don't be goofy.
Good to hear what your spiritual connotations are... mine are similar, but with the word WHOLENESS added to it... and a feeling of MUCH MORE FEMALE EQUALITY IN HIS SPIRIT than God's entire Word renders outright without having to dig dig dig for it.
I LOVED hearing this message from Ray for this very sort of "women's equality" reason. And to a woman, it DOES matter if it's a rib or a chamber for a variety of deep and not just superfluous reasons. A liberating insight to be heralded by women abroad!
I am always sort of tickled and awed to think about God ~the mystery~ we will not know completely into the future. Of course we will be sexless per Scripture. The actual discerning of spiritual matters, as you too speculate you just don't know, are to me, somewhere in like the sixteenth dimension, if that is even a concept, [out of bounds] and I deal with this attempt to grasp it daily and continually chuckle to myself. This paper of Ray's brought a few things home to me personally.
I appreciate your views with thanks to you as a forum friend!
J.
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And the two shall become one flesh....This mystery IS VERY GREAT.... Eph 5 : 31..
Have you ever experienced passion that blurs your boundaries and melts dividing lines between you and your spouse? I am not taliking about out of the body experiences either. :)
I believe that our union with God will be of such a nature that boundaries will blur too.
Eph 3 : 19 That you may really come to know practically, through experience for yourselves, the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge, that you may be FILLED THROUGH ALL YOUR BEING unto all the fullness of God, and may have the riches measure of the divine Presence, and BECOME A BODY WHOLLY FILLED AND FLOODED WITH GOD HIMSELF.
I do not believe that Paul is here referring to human carnal sensuality.
We taste that the Lord is good not in a tactile sensual way but in a spiritual way and as we are weaned off our taste for carnality, literal thinking and our own limitations we are then able to glimpse what Paul prayed for his brethren that they would be wholly filled and flooded with God Himself. There IS joy in His Presence but just think about what the emotion is in union with Christ not in a genital way but in a 2filled through all your being" embrace of God. Are you ready to disintegrate and be flooded in the union of God filling your being?
Ray's revelation on Adam and Eve can be brought down to carnal thinking but it should rather be viewed in the Spirit of Christs perfection and His work to raise children for God as brothers and sisters of Christ in preparation to be the BRIDE.
This is all spiritual not sexual or gender limited. This is cosmic in its proportions, boundless in its apllication and limitless in its gift to humankind being made into the image of Christ to be His Bride.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Janice and Arcturus,
Thanks for bringing this out, this is a very important aspect of God that is not taught, at least I've never heard anyone else speak on this.
I thought I would bring this part up, from the same transcript. I think this excerpt further expresses what Arcturus was saying.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html -------
When a man and a woman are united in sexual intercourse.....They are one flesh, in that relationship, you see. And that is why you’re not suppose to fornicate with prostitutes. Because when you’re joined to a prostitute you’re one flesh too, and that’s an abomination. You cling to your wife, not your wife and your girl friend and the local whore. Your wife, because your one flesh, you see.
This is a great mystery it says. But I’m speaking concerning Christ and His church. The relationship of Christ with the church, it typified by the relationship of a loving husband and a loving wife in sexual intercourse. When they are so emotionally intertwined with one another, that they are literally one flesh. This is the relationship we’re going to have with God. Christ refers to the church as the Bride of Christ.
The bride is going to be all decorated, by that we mean, made spotless and sure and clean, character wise. A fitting Bride for the creator of the universe.
v
v
When Paul comes along and says this very thing we’re talking about, he’s talking about Christ and the church.
You see it’s a great spiritual lesson, this union of a husband and a wife, what it should be. How a husband should love a wife and how a wife should love a husband. I mean really love each other dearly.
This is how Christ loves the church, and died for it.
Just as the husband and wife become one flesh, God wants to be that intimate with humanity, like one flesh.
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one!”
They’re not the same person, but ‘one,’ there’s a difference.
But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
And that’s what God wants us to be with Him, that close, one.
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Interesting to look at these things that give us a deeper spiritual understanding of the relationship of the spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat