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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Joey Porter on July 27, 2006, 02:23:05 AM
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Okay, I'm just starting to type and I already have a feeling this may end up being a lengthy post. This has to deal with the Kingdom, and judgment, etc. I have really been meditating on this in recent times, and I believe I may be putting some things together. Of course, much of this is discussed on Ray's site also.
I have been wondering about exactly how the judgment and the kingdom is going to take place, and just what our roles will be, and how it all correlates to our lives now.
As many of us have learned, the scriptures tell us that we are to judge ourselves now (by accepting and learning from the Lord's discipline) so that we will not be condemned with the world.
1 Corinthians 11
31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
But what about judging others? Should we be gaining better discernment when judging others in order to be fit for our part in the Kingdom? I'm not talking about going around condemning everyone, but just having the God given discernment to see what's in men's hearts. There are a couple of scriptures that come to mind when thinking about this:
1 Corinthians 6
2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
This passage reminds a lot of Christ's words:
Luke 16
10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
Now, when I was thinking earthly instead of heavenly, I used to think this pertained to how we manage our money. But, is it possible that Paul and Jesus are telling us the same thing here? If we can't learn to discern how to justly judge others now, we will not be prepared to do so when the time comes for us to take our parts in the kingdom.
I believe that Paul and Jesus also give us another "parallel teaching" in a couple other areas.
Here are the familiar words of Christ:
Luke 6
42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
(As a side note, I remember hearing Ray teach that he believes our brother really does have a plank in his eye too, but since we've got a plank in our eye, we can't see that it actually is a plank in our brother's eye. I think he's right.)
But let's see how those words line up with Paul:
2 Timothy 2
20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
Perhaps "cleansing ourselves of the latter" is equivalent to "taking the plank out of our own eye." Perhaps being "useful to the master and prepared to do any good work" is equivalent to "seeing clearly to remove the speck from our brother's eye."
And yet another parallel that I can't help but notice between Paul's and Christ's teachings:
Luke 12
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
What does Christ mean by "give their food allowance at the proper time?" I believe Paul may give us the answer in his writings:
1 Corinthians 3
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it.
Does anyone else see that? Paul had the discernment to give the Corinthians their food allowance at the proper time! He understood that trying to shove solid food down their throats would be destructive. Is it possible that we also need to be asking God for the discernment to minister to our brethren, feeding milk to those who can only handle milk, and feeding solid food to those who are further along?
I think it's interesting that in Luke chapter 12, Christ contrasts the faithful and wise manager with those who beat their fellow servants. Could this be, beating them with the Word, looking down on them and condemning them, while we ourselves are full of hypocrisy? Could He be referring to trying to take a speck out of our brother's eye while we yet have a plank in our own eye? Perhaps He is referring to force feeding people meat when they're only able to handle milk.
So, what about the way we use the Word when dealing with others? Do we twist it so that we can control people and scare them? Do we "cut off their ears" so that they can't hear the Truth of God's word?
Matthew 26
51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
What will happen if we cut off the ears of our fellow servants, if we become hasty and carnal and try to forcefeed meat to them when they can only handle milk?
52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
And of course, this is parallel to the parable of the 3 servants:
Luke 19
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant!
If we take up the sword (the Word of God) in a way that we misuse it, we will be cut asunder by the very sword that we wielded!
Luke 12
46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Does anyone else have any insight into this?
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Thank you Joey.
I was just thinking about all of this today and what you wrote really helped me understand more.
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Thank you Joey.
I was just thinking about all of this today and what you wrote really helped me understand more.
Thank you for the encouraging words.
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Good to know that I am not alone.
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Joey,
I found this to be a very thought provoking post, I see many of the things you wrote.
Thank you,
Joe
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Very interesting Joey, you certainly provide some interestinf parallels and they make sense to me. :)
Thank you so much for sharing your insight.
Darren
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Joey, This is a very interesting post. You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
Love in Christ
mongoose
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Hi Joey,
Luke 19
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant!
This reminds me of minister, pastors and other theological 'experts' who use the word of god in a mistranslated, fit-the-doctirine way in propagating untruths about the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel, turning it into bad news of a hellish afterlife and Jesus as the saviour of only 'some'. What are these men, if only in their own minds, but the servants of God?
Luke 12
46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Again with reference to what I said above and these scriptures:
Matt 7:22
Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?
and the answer:
23 Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
I don't know if this is correct, it's just that when I read it and thought about it, it's the scriptures came into my mind, even though I had to look up where they were.
thought provoking post tho!
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Thanks to everyone for the kind replies.
Hi Joey,
Luke 19
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant!
This reminds me of minister, pastors and other theological 'experts' who use the word of god in a mistranslated, fit-the-doctirine way in propagating untruths about the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel, turning it into bad news of a hellish afterlife and Jesus as the saviour of only 'some'. What are these men, if only in their own minds, but the servants of God?
Luke 12
46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Again with reference to what I said above and these scriptures:
Matt 7:22
Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?
and the answer:
23 Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
I don't know if this is correct, it's just that when I read it and thought about it, it's the scriptures came into my mind, even though I had to look up where they were.
thought provoking post tho!
Regarding those above verses - they remind me of how I used to think that the "wolves in sheep's clothing" would be people who deliberately and deceitfully preach false doctrine for evil motives. But now I realize that any of us could be wolves in sheep's clothing, and we probably have been at certain times in our lives. I'm sure that most of the wolves out there don't even realize they're wolves. They probably preach frequently about being aware of the wolves, not even realizing that they themsleves are wolves! Remember when Jesus called the Pharisees children of the devil. The scriptures certainly don't indicate that they were holding sceances and tattooing pentagrams on their bodies. No, they were shocked and apalled that He could make such a claim. But nevertheless, we know it's true because He said it.
As far as how the wolves will be judged - I have often wondered (not to get too negative or critical here), but I have often wondered if Calvinists will be judged by their own words and led to believe that they were one of the many who were predestined to burn in hell forever. Perhaps judgmental and self righteous protestants who love to condemn catholics to hell for their erroneous beliefs, perhaps those protestants will be led to believe that the catholics were right and they (the protestants) are on their way to hell. One verse that always stays in my mind:
James 2
13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
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So Joey,
You then believe hell is forever?
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So Joey,
You then believe hell is forever?
I'm not sure how you got that out of my post, but no. Actually, I don't even believe "hell" is at all. At least, not the way it's taught in religion. But I do believe every man will reap what he has sown and those who have not forgiven as they have been forgiven will be turned over to the tormentors until they've paid back all they owe. (Matthew 18)
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I have been wondering about exactly how the judgment and the kingdom is going to take place, and just what our roles will be, and how it all correlates to our lives now.........But what about judging others? Should we be gaining better discernment when judging others in order to be fit for our part in the Kingdom? I'm not talking about going around condemning everyone, but just having the God given discernment to see what's in men's hearts. [
Hi Joey,
Just this morning I was studying about what my position should be on telling others the truth, and these verses I wrote down (which seem in-line with "judging") :
Prov 9:7-8 "He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame and he that rebuketh a wicked man getting himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee, rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."
As happened to Paul in Acts:
Act 13:45 "But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming."
Jesus told us:
Matt7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
In hindsight, there were many times when I wanted to "cast my pearls before swine", but the words wouldn't come, or I would forget the verse I wanted to quote, and I reckon that was God-given discernment that this person shouldn't have these words.
I often wondered too about judging others because scripture often says "Judge not that ye be not judged", but I think maybe it refers to the carnal man which cannot judge others because of the BEAM in his own eye...however, once we are spiritually re-born, we judge others because Jesus is IN US, as he said:
John5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me".
Only when we have God's will in our hearts (Phil 2:13) can we rightly judge, whether now or in the next age:
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the heart: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Carnal men judge all the time, we see it every day in gossip alone, and we know it's not right, but think about if we have GOD'S WILL IN OUR HEARTS, our judgement changes, and we start to judge differently....
Just my thoughts Joey.
Marie
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Joey, that Arnold may be refering what you said in your last post. Specifically he may have been making reference to the Catholics and Protestant and Calvinist thing.
Thanks to everyone for the kind replies.
Hi Joey,
Luke 19
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant!
This reminds me of minister, pastors and other theological 'experts' who use the word of god in a mistranslated, fit-the-doctirine way in propagating untruths about the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel, turning it into bad news of a hellish afterlife and Jesus as the saviour of only 'some'. What are these men, if only in their own minds, but the servants of God?
Luke 12
46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Again with reference to what I said above and these scriptures:
Matt 7:22
Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?
and the answer:
23 Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
I don't know if this is correct, it's just that when I read it and thought about it, it's the scriptures came into my mind, even though I had to look up where they were.
thought provoking post tho!
Regarding those above verses - they remind me of how I used to think that the "wolves in sheep's clothing" would be people who deliberately and deceitfully preach false doctrine for evil motives. But now I realize that any of us could be wolves in sheep's clothing, and we probably have been at certain times in our lives. I'm sure that most of the wolves out there don't even realize they're wolves. They probably preach frequently about being aware of the wolves, not even realizing that they themsleves are wolves! Remember when Jesus called the Pharisees children of the devil. The scriptures certainly don't indicate that they were holding sceances and tattooing pentagrams on their bodies. No, they were shocked and apalled that He could make such a claim. But nevertheless, we know it's true because He said it.
As far as how the wolves will be judged - I have often wondered (not to get too negative or critical here), but I have often wondered if Calvinists will be judged by their own words and led to believe that they were one of the many who were predestined to burn in hell forever. Perhaps judgmental and self righteous protestants who love to condemn catholics to hell for their erroneous beliefs, perhaps those protestants will be led to believe that the catholics were right and they (the protestants) are on their way to hell. One verse that always stays in my mind:
James 2
13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
-
I have been wondering about exactly how the judgment and the kingdom is going to take place, and just what our roles will be, and how it all correlates to our lives now.........But what about judging others? Should we be gaining better discernment when judging others in order to be fit for our part in the Kingdom? I'm not talking about going around condemning everyone, but just having the God given discernment to see what's in men's hearts. [
Hi Joey,
Just this morning I was studying about what my position should be on telling others the truth, and these verses I wrote down (which seem in-line with "judging") :
Prov 9:7-8 "He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame and he that rebuketh a wicked man getting himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee, rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."
As happened to Paul in Acts:
Act 13:45 "But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming."
Jesus told us:
Matt7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
In hindsight, there were many times when I wanted to "cast my pearls before swine", but the words wouldn't come, or I would forget the verse I wanted to quote, and I reckon that was God-given discernment that this person shouldn't have these words.
I often wondered too about judging others because scripture often says "Judge not that ye be not judged", but I think maybe it refers to the carnal man which cannot judge others because of the BEAM in his own eye...however, once we are spiritually re-born, we judge others because Jesus is IN US, as he said:
John5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me".
Only when we have God's will in our hearts (Phil 2:13) can we rightly judge, whether now or in the next age:
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the heart: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Carnal men judge all the time, we see it every day in gossip alone, and we know it's not right, but think about if we have GOD'S WILL IN OUR HEARTS, our judgement changes, and we start to judge differently....
Just my thoughts Joey.
Marie
Hi Marie
I too know all about having certain truths that people need to hear, and not saying them. But I think my reasoning may sometimes be cowardliness. :-[ But I agree that sometimes you can tell when someone is just so set in their ways that it wouldn't even be worth trying to reason with them.
Here is another passage about judging:
1 Corinthinans 5
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
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Joey, this is an interesting topic. The sword, tongue, and the words we use, have a connection.
(Psa 57:4) My soul is among lions; I lie among those on fire, the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue is a sharp sword.
(Psa 64:2) Hide me from the counsel of those who injure, from the tumult of evildoers,
(Psa 64:3) who sharpen their tongue like a sword; they tread their arrows, a bitter word,
(Isa 66:16) For by fire and by His sword Jehovah will execute judgment with all flesh; and the slain of Jehovah shall be many.
Words are like swords, which cut asunder, or they lead to peace. The tongue is but a small member of the body, but what power it has.
(Heb 4:12) For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;
Knowing that God works in each life, but not at the same time. I see where God has me now, and I remember where I was. What a difference He has made. And what a long way to go. This whole process is what He has done, so how can we judge another, seeing it is His work to do as He pleases.
For me, it seems that suffering for His names sake, is what brings about discernment. Amazing the good that comes out of hard times. The end result, what the suffering teaches us is far greater than the pains while going through these hard times.
I am just so grateful that He came, not to condemn, but to save, and I think this is what we are to become. So many around us are in the business of condemning, hurting and murdering by their words, yet this is not the example He set for us to follow.
God bless,
Gary
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Joey, that Arnold may be refering what you said in your last post. Specifically he may have been making reference to the Catholics and Protestant and Calvinist thing.
It's not that I believe they'll go to a ''hell" because they taught it. But they will be tormented by being led to believe that they'll go to this place of torment with which they've scared others. For all the fear and torment they've caused others with this teaching, they will go through the same fear and torment of believing they will go there. They will be told "I will judge you by your own words" and they will believe thatk means they will go to hell. That will be torment in and of itself.
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Joey, this is an interesting topic. The sword, tongue, and the words we use, have a connection.
(Psa 57:4) My soul is among lions; I lie among those on fire, the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue is a sharp sword.
(Psa 64:2) Hide me from the counsel of those who injure, from the tumult of evildoers,
(Psa 64:3) who sharpen their tongue like a sword; they tread their arrows, a bitter word,
(Isa 66:16) For by fire and by His sword Jehovah will execute judgment with all flesh; and the slain of Jehovah shall be many.
Words are like swords, which cut asunder, or they lead to peace. The tongue is but a small member of the body, but what power it has.
(Heb 4:12) For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;
Knowing that God works in each life, but not at the same time. I see where God has me now, and I remember where I was. What a difference He has made. And what a long way to go. This whole process is what He has done, so how can we judge another, seeing it is His work to do as He pleases.
For me, it seems that suffering for His names sake, is what brings about discernment. Amazing the good that comes out of hard times. The end result, what the suffering teaches us is far greater than the pains while going through these hard times.
I am just so grateful that He came, not to condemn, but to save, and I think this is what we are to become. So many around us are in the business of condemning, hurting and murdering by their words, yet this is not the example He set for us to follow.
God bless,
Gary
I agree that we shouldn't be going around condemning others in a carnal, self righteous way. However, we can discern the hearts of our brothers and if we look deeply at the spiritual message of the bible, we can begin to line up different passages of scripture with certian people's actions and attitudes. We can then have a better understanding of how to rebuke them, feeding their needed food allowance at the proper time.
Remember, Jesus told us that we will know trees by their fruit. But we first need the understanding to justly analyze people's fruits.
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Yes, I agree Joey.
The vast majority of people want to live in harmony with each other, yet this majority have not learned the way of peace through Gods word. Impossible thing to find real peace, outside of God, in this world, yet this is what we all have done, and have been guilty of.
That ole beast does not easily want to relinquish his control. Worldly religion just adds wood to the fire, seeing where I was, and where God has me now. Wow, big difference.
I think we can all see a little better now being out of the deception that goes on in relligion. I have had better discussions about God with publilcans and sinners, than so called religious people. Maybe that is why Jesus spent so much time with them, just to get away from the hypocrisy and relax.
Again good topic, and here is to ya. Been working hard all week and just opened a can of beer to relax a little. Peace.
God bless,
Gary
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1 Corinthinans 5
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Almost everyone looks at verses like this with fleshly understanding. They do the very same thing the scribes and pharisees did to the woman who was caught in adultry.
They believed she was a sinner and need to be Expelled.
Jesus told them that the one who is without sin can start the expelling.(cast the first stone)
Joh 8:9 But hearing, and being convicted by the conscience, they went out one by one, beginning from the older ones, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the middle.
Joh 8:10 And Jesus bending back up, and having seen no one but the woman, He said to her, Woman, where are those, the accusers of you? Did not one give judgment against you?
Joh 8:11 And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I judge you. Go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. The one following Me will in no way walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.
The only one who was qualified to expel or cast a stone or punish for sins done, chose to give mercy and love and forgiveness. This is the way those who are qualified to judge others will judge, not by "punishment, reproof, correction, lashes" but by mercy!
Rom 9:16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God
Rom 11:31 so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
Luk 10:36 Who, then, of these three seems to you to have become a neighbor to the one having fallen among the plunderers?
Luk 10:37 And he said, The one doing the deed of mercy with him. Then Jesus said to him, Go, and you do likewise.
This is what it is to be Christ like, we forgive them because they dont know what they are doing!
"Expel the wicked man from among you" -- this is YOU
remember the scribes and pharisees went to expel the wicked woman only to be expelled themselves.
When Christ says to get the plank out of your eye FIRST. He saying show mercy on others because you have sin also. no finger pointing, no expelling..
and if you are without sin (no more plank) you are to judge like Christ judged ..."Jesus said to her, Neither do I judge you"
Rom 3:10 according as it has been written, "There is not a righteous one, not even one!"
Rom 3:11 "There is not one understanding; there is not one seeking God."
Rom 3:12 All turned away, they became worthless together, not one is doing goodness, not so much as one!
Rom 3:23 for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus
when we read the scriptures, those of the flesh are blinded and deaf. Those of the spirit see with their eyes and hear with their ears.
The flesh sees: wrath, judgement, pain, retribution, punishment, you get what you deserve
The Spirit sees: Love, Forgiveness, Mercy, Grace
Luk 7:41 There were two debtors to a certain creditor: the one owed five hundred denarii and the other fifty.(one sinned more than the other)
Luk 7:42 But they not having a thing to pay, he freely forgave both. Then which of them do you say will love him most?
Luk 7:43 And answering, Simon said, I suppose the one to whom he freely forgave the most. And He said to him, You have judged rightly.
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....This is what it is to be Christ like, we forgive them because they dont know what they are doing!
This is what it is to be Christ like, we forgive them because they dont know what they are doing!
what about these verses???? not knowing what they are doing versus having known and rejected???
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Rom 3:12 All turned away, they became worthless together, not one is doing goodness, not so much as one!
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I have needed this thread, because the issue of judging Christians for believing heresies hits home with my blog (which forum rules state I can't post). I am on a spiritual journey so when I post to this blog I am posting about what God has led me to spiritual discern, which is amazing since I stopped looking at the Bible through the eyes of what others have claimed about it. Yet I believe I still have "logs" in my own eyes. So, am I wrong to call the Pharisees of today to task?--snorky
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quote: what about these verses?Huh not knowing what they are doing versus having known and rejected???
Man does not reject anything on his own accord. Period.
The Father is in complete control of mans will, mans mans life and mans death.
Do you suppose Pharoah was rejecting Gods demand on his own accord?
Do you suppose Samson killed Phillistines or married a gentile on his own accord?
Do you suppose that you can come to the knowledge and reject Him on your own accord?
"in his mind a man set his path, but he Lord (even) determines his steps"
Luk 7:41 There were two debtors to a certain creditor: the one owed five hundred denarii and the other fifty.(one sinned more than the other)
Luk 7:42 But they not having a thing to pay, he freely forgave both. Then which of them do you say will love him most?
Luk 7:43 And answering, Simon said, I suppose the one to whom he freely forgave the most. And He said to him, You have judged rightly.
if anyone is punished for any sins commited, then he actually is not forgiven for the sins is he?
If a person has to PAY for a sin no matter how great or how small then the act of Christ bearing and forgiving the sins of the world is not true.
Of course the wages of sin is death. And when we sin(sow into the wind) we reap the whirlwind. But this IS by design of our great Father.
The Father brought us into sin on purpose so that when the end of sin(death) occurs we can see how glorious He really is. We can only appreciate this if we experience or live through His opposite or sin.
We cannot fully realize or appreciate what light is unless we experience what darkness is.
I have much to say on this topic, however I dont expect most to see what I am saying.
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Luk 7:41 There were two debtors to a certain creditor: the one owed five hundred denarii and the other fifty.(one sinned more than the other)
Luk 7:42 But they not having a thing to pay, he freely forgave both.
If a person can pay for his sins through punishment, he WOULD "have a thing to pay"
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quote: what about these verses?Huh not knowing what they are doing versus having known and rejected???
Man does not reject anything on his own accord. Period.
The Father is in complete control of mans will, mans mans life and mans death.
Do you suppose Pharoah was rejecting Gods demand on his own accord?
Do you suppose Samson killed Phillistines or married a gentile on his own accord?
Do you suppose that you can come to the knowledge and reject Him on your own accord?
"in his mind a man set his path, but he Lord (even) determines his steps"
Luk 7:41 There were two debtors to a certain creditor: the one owed five hundred denarii and the other fifty.(one sinned more than the other)
Luk 7:42 But they not having a thing to pay, he freely forgave both. Then which of them do you say will love him most?
Luk 7:43 And answering, Simon said, I suppose the one to whom he freely forgave the most. And He said to him, You have judged rightly.
if anyone is punished for any sins commited, then he actually is not forgiven for the sins is he?
If a person has to PAY for a sin no matter how great or how small then the act of Christ bearing and forgiving the sins of the world is not true.
Of course the wages of sin is death. And when we sin(sow into the wind) we reap the whirlwind. But this IS by design of our great Father.
The Father brought us into sin on purpose so that when the end of sin(death) occurs we can see how glorious He really is. We can only appreciate this if we experience or live through His opposite or sin.
We cannot fully realize or appreciate what light is unless we experience what darkness is.
I have much to say on this topic, however I dont expect most to see what I am saying.
I too believe God is in control of all.
I need help in understanding Romans 1-3, and reconciling that man is not accountable for his sins, "forgive them for they no not what they do".
The wages of sin is death, and we all die. The only way to life is through death. So it seems to me, we all do pay for our sins, we all die. What the cross does, is guarantee a resurrection. Death no longer has any power. If forgiveness doesn't mean we have to pay the consequence of it, then none would die. I don't see Christs death and resurrection as substitutional, but as the path we all take, and only accomplished through the power of the risen Christ.
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Read your last post,
You said you wondered if Calvinist would burn in hell forever. That an indication that you believe hell is forever right?
you are the author of that post right.
And just to let you know I am not trying to be harmful in anyway, just trying to figure it out.
arnold
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1 Corinthinans 5
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Almost everyone looks at verses like this with fleshly understanding. They do the very same thing the scribes and pharisees did to the woman who was caught in adultry.
They believed she was a sinner and need to be Expelled.
Jesus told them that the one who is without sin can start the expelling.(cast the first stone)
Joh 8:9 But hearing, and being convicted by the conscience, they went out one by one, beginning from the older ones, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the middle.
Joh 8:10 And Jesus bending back up, and having seen no one but the woman, He said to her, Woman, where are those, the accusers of you? Did not one give judgment against you?
Joh 8:11 And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I judge you. Go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. The one following Me will in no way walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.
The only one who was qualified to expel or cast a stone or punish for sins done, chose to give mercy and love and forgiveness. This is the way those who are qualified to judge others will judge, not by "punishment, reproof, correction, lashes" but by mercy!
Rom 9:16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God
Rom 11:31 so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
Luk 10:36 Who, then, of these three seems to you to have become a neighbor to the one having fallen among the plunderers?
Luk 10:37 And he said, The one doing the deed of mercy with him. Then Jesus said to him, Go, and you do likewise.
This is what it is to be Christ like, we forgive them because they dont know what they are doing!
"Expel the wicked man from among you" -- this is YOU
remember the scribes and pharisees went to expel the wicked woman only to be expelled themselves.
When Christ says to get the plank out of your eye FIRST. He saying show mercy on others because you have sin also. no finger pointing, no expelling..
and if you are without sin (no more plank) you are to judge like Christ judged ..."Jesus said to her, Neither do I judge you"
Rom 3:10 according as it has been written, "There is not a righteous one, not even one!"
Rom 3:11 "There is not one understanding; there is not one seeking God."
Rom 3:12 All turned away, they became worthless together, not one is doing goodness, not so much as one!
Rom 3:23 for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus
when we read the scriptures, those of the flesh are blinded and deaf. Those of the spirit see with their eyes and hear with their ears.
The flesh sees: wrath, judgement, pain, retribution, punishment, you get what you deserve
The Spirit sees: Love, Forgiveness, Mercy, Grace
Luk 7:41 There were two debtors to a certain creditor: the one owed five hundred denarii and the other fifty.(one sinned more than the other)
Luk 7:42 But they not having a thing to pay, he freely forgave both. Then which of them do you say will love him most?
Luk 7:43 And answering, Simon said, I suppose the one to whom he freely forgave the most. And He said to him, You have judged rightly.
Dan, very well said. Are not we thankful that God IS, love, mercy and forgiveness? Lucky for us all, and these are what we are to become.
(1Co 13:4) Love has patience, is kind; love is not envious; love is not vain, is not puffed up;
(1Co 13:5) does not behave indecently, does not pursue its own things, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil;
(1Co 13:6) does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth.
(1Co 13:7) Love quietly covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
God bless,
Gary
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Read your last post,
You said you wondered if Calvinist would burn in hell forever. That an indication that you believe hell is forever right?
you are the author of that post right.
And just to let you know I am not trying to be harmful in anyway, just trying to figure it out.
arnold
Not sure if this was for me, but I mentioned calvinists a while ago so perhaps it is.
My point is that I wonder if they will be led to believe that they were chosen by God to burn in hell forever, and so be tormented by their own teaching. Not that they actually would burn in hell forever.
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1 Corinthinans 5
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Almost everyone looks at verses like this with fleshly understanding. They do the very same thing the scribes and pharisees did to the woman who was caught in adultry.
They believed she was a sinner and need to be Expelled.
Jesus told them that the one who is without sin can start the expelling.(cast the first stone)
Joh 8:9 But hearing, and being convicted by the conscience, they went out one by one, beginning from the older ones, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the middle.
Joh 8:10 And Jesus bending back up, and having seen no one but the woman, He said to her, Woman, where are those, the accusers of you? Did not one give judgment against you?
Joh 8:11 And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I judge you. Go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. The one following Me will in no way walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.
The only one who was qualified to expel or cast a stone or punish for sins done, chose to give mercy and love and forgiveness. This is the way those who are qualified to judge others will judge, not by "punishment, reproof, correction, lashes" but by mercy!
Rom 9:16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God
Rom 11:31 so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
Luk 10:36 Who, then, of these three seems to you to have become a neighbor to the one having fallen among the plunderers?
Luk 10:37 And he said, The one doing the deed of mercy with him. Then Jesus said to him, Go, and you do likewise.
This is what it is to be Christ like, we forgive them because they dont know what they are doing!
"Expel the wicked man from among you" -- this is YOU
remember the scribes and pharisees went to expel the wicked woman only to be expelled themselves.
When Christ says to get the plank out of your eye FIRST. He saying show mercy on others because you have sin also. no finger pointing, no expelling..
and if you are without sin (no more plank) you are to judge like Christ judged ..."Jesus said to her, Neither do I judge you"
Rom 3:10 according as it has been written, "There is not a righteous one, not even one!"
Rom 3:11 "There is not one understanding; there is not one seeking God."
Rom 3:12 All turned away, they became worthless together, not one is doing goodness, not so much as one!
Rom 3:23 for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus
when we read the scriptures, those of the flesh are blinded and deaf. Those of the spirit see with their eyes and hear with their ears.
The flesh sees: wrath, judgement, pain, retribution, punishment, you get what you deserve
The Spirit sees: Love, Forgiveness, Mercy, Grace
Luk 7:41 There were two debtors to a certain creditor: the one owed five hundred denarii and the other fifty.(one sinned more than the other)
Luk 7:42 But they not having a thing to pay, he freely forgave both. Then which of them do you say will love him most?
Luk 7:43 And answering, Simon said, I suppose the one to whom he freely forgave the most. And He said to him, You have judged rightly.
I think there is God given discernment that must be used when executing judgment for different, individual cases. For example, I still have many weaknesses of the flesh, so I really try not to judge or rebuke others who have those same weaknesses. However, in certain cases, I think we are probably instructed to point out to a brother any willful sin with a hardened heart. For example, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
Again, I believe this is someone who is repeatedly shown the truth of his sinful actions and yet hardens himself and still tries to associate with honest seeking brethren. Sometimes it can be tricky to discern, but we can't allow that type of behavior in our midst or else we ourselves may fall pray to disobedience. We should always be merciful in our judgments, but we must also keep in mind:
Galatians 6
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
This is not an easy task, walking that fine line of showing a brother his faults gently, without falling victim to sinfulness ourselves. On the other hand, we must not be too overbearing, especially if someone is committing a sin that may be a weakness of our own, lest we make ourselves out to be a hypocrite.
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One thing I would like to add is:
As Joey said, the wages of sin is death.
it does not say, the wages of sin is punishment after death.
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One thing I would like to add is:
As Joey said, the wages of sin is death.
it does not say, the wages of sin is punishment after death.
Don't we all die?? And since we all do, don't we all receive our wages?
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Yes Rocky , that is exactly my point.
Death is our wage for sin. Not torment and or punishment after death :)
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Joey Wrote:
I think there is God given discernment that must be used when executing judgment for different, individual cases. For example, I still have many weaknesses of the flesh, so I really try not to judge or rebuke others who have those same weaknesses. However, in certain cases, I think we are probably instructed to point out to a brother any willful sin with a hardened heart. For example, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
Again, I believe this is someone who is repeatedly shown the truth of his sinful actions and yet hardens himself and still tries to associate with honest seeking brethren. Sometimes it can be tricky to discern, but we can't allow that type of behavior in our midst or else we ourselves may fall pray to disobedience. We should always be merciful in our judgments, but we must also keep in mind:
Galatians 6
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
This is not an easy task, walking that fine line of showing a brother his faults gently, without falling victim to sinfulness ourselves. On the other hand, we must not be too overbearing, especially if someone is committing a sin that may be a weakness of our own, lest we make ourselves out to be a hypocrite.
Joey,
Most people take 1st Corinthians 5 and distinguish(separate) themselves from people in the same way the Pharisees did.
Sorta like: "thank you Lord Im not a sinner like that one or this one".
Jud 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, eagerly awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to everlasting life.
Jud 1:22 And pity some, making a distinction.(seperation)
Jud 1:23 But save others from the fear, snatching them out of the fire, hating even the garment being stained from the flesh.
Remember Paul called the Corinthians idolators, greedy,immoral yet did not separate himself from them.
If one wishes to be under the law then he must live by the law (and judge under the law)
1Ti 1:5 but the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience, and faith not pretended,
1Ti 1:6 from which having missed the mark, some turned aside to empty talking,
1Ti 1:7 wishing to be teachers of law, neither understanding what they say, nor about that which they confidently affirm.
1Ti 1:8 And we know that the Law is good, if anyone uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 knowing this, that Law is not laid down for a righteous one, but for lawless and undisciplined ones, for ungodly and sinful ones, for unholy and profane ones, for slayers of fathers and slayers of mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10 for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if any other thing opposes sound doctrine,
and yes if you murder once, you are a murderer, and if you lie once you are a liar.
Joey,
can a person who calls himself a believer and lies, disassociate(not eat with) with another person who calls himself a believer and is greedy?
Galatians 6
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.[/b]
lets look at a little more of this:
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if a man is overtaken in some deviation, you, the spiritual ones, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself, that you not also be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. (not the law of commands)
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks to be something, he deceives himself, being nothing.
These verses are completely talking about love, and loving another. With the full understanding of being a sinner just as the one being restored.
Lets leave the things of the Law to those who are trying to follow the Law, as if they are trying to obtain something.
Lets Live under Christ's law of LOVE. ;D
Lets not look to disassociate or not eat with, because of their tresspasses. Lets look to putting our arms around them and keep them from falling, and if they fall, help them up again...and again..
Oh Yes, according to the LAW, David should not have ate the temple bread. But David acted under Christ's Law of Mercy, and did break the Law of Commands, only to fulfill the Law of Mercy.
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Dan, good post.
I think we can see through this why Christ hung out with sinners, but seperated himself from law abiding pharisees/hypocrites.
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Amen to that, thank God, He is not as the hypocrites. He loves sinners, for this very reason He came.
To shun sinners, curse them, and place them in some fabled hellhole is the most vilest, unthinkable thing to God. Praise His Holy Name!
God bless,
Gary
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He gives grace to the humble and opposes the proud. :)
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Jud 1:23 But save others from the fear, snatching them out of the fire, hating even the garment being stained from the flesh.
this verse is facinating when translated properly.
But Almost every "Babel" (confused language) english language translates this verse "save others with fear"
as if we are supposed to go around preaching FEAR of eternal torment in fire.
But its actually saying
Save others who are in fear!
en fobos = in fear , instruments of fear,
looking at 'fobos' in many other verses, denotes people who are afraid.
"hating even the garment being stained from the flesh" is also very interesting.
There is more information in Isaiah:
Isa 66:24 And they shall go out and see the carcasses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.
carcasses=peger
peh'-gher
From H6296; a carcase (as limp), whether of man or beast; figuratively an idolatrous image: - carcase, corpse, dead body.
worm+to-law', to-lay-aw', (3,4) to-lah'-ath
From H3216; a maggot (as voracious); specifically the crimson grub, but used only (in this connection) of the color from it, and cloths dyed therewith: - crimson, scarlet, worm.
Maybe More accurately:
and they shall go forth and look upon(remember) the image of the (man)beast, that have transgressed against me: truly the blood red dyed clothes(from crimson grub)(sin) ,will not stop being destroyed(put to and end)the Fire will not be quenched, the image shall be an abhorring unto all mankind.
All men will hate the image of man being in sin. And will no longer be any part of it.
Does this open a can of worms? ;D
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Jud 1:23 But save others from the fear...
BTW, we are to save those who are in fear of what?
What are they afraid of?
Why, its the one thing that almost all are afraid of, DEATH!
Almost everyone is afraid to die. Especially when death is near to them.
And the more in the world they are, the more they dont want to lose the life they have.
But everyone in Matthew 5, when faced with death, welcome it.
Ecc 7:1 A good name is better than good ointment; and the day of death better than the day of one's birth.
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Dan, that is an interesting connection.
The idolatrous images, being taught nowadays, has many caught in a snare. Thinking and believing that God will burn and torture people for an eternity, is it any wonder so many fear death! Worldly religion sure is a stumbling block for many.
(Gal 2:20) I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, the One loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf.
This above verse separates the carnal christians and the spiritual ones. When the Comforter, Holy Spirit, Christ is in us, the love of God puts on more meaning than just a word. It testifies to us, and is seemingly impossible for us to think, believe and speak that God would torture anyone. Hence, God gives us the desire to search out for His truth, and rewards us accordingly.
I don't mean to get off track of your post, but was flipping through the channels yesterday, and came up across Benny Hinn asking for one thousand dollar donations for a jet plane he wants to buy. He named the plane "Dove One". Upon giving a thousand dollars your name will be put up on a plaque in the back of the plane, so you can be close to him throughout the world in his ministry for Christ. I don't mean to be making fun or anything, but come on, what is wrong with that picture, and do people really fall for this? lol ;D
God bless,
Gary
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With all this being said what do we do with 1 Corinthians 5?
2 Corinthians seems to be talking about this same brother being restored.
2 Corinthians 2
1But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.
2For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
3And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
4For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
5But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
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Nice post MG,
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ
this verse says volumes.
It really is interesting how Pauls writings are misunderstood or perverted.
Peter tells us this is 2Peter.
2Pe 3:15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him;
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Yea Gary, it is amazing how blind God has made people. Although I thought I had understanding, but was blind too.
Even now I only see through a clouded mirror, dimly lit.Just beginning to see His way is of Love and Mercy.
Here's another interesting concept. Remember those who are cast out where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?
Psa 112:10 The wicked shall see and be grieved; he shall gnash his teeth and melt(melt with grief); the desire of the wicked shall perish.
After being blind, the wicked one will see! and when he sees, he will be terribly grieved.(seeing the sinful flesh) THEN the desire of the wicked(sinful desires) shall end.
The person does not perish, the sinful wicked desires perish.
Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus "every knee will bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth, (that covers every created being)
Phi 2:11 and "every tongue should confess" that Jesus Christ is "Lord," to the glory of God the Father. Isa. 45:23
Phi 2:13 for it is God who is working in you both to will and to work for the sake of His good pleasure.
Look at this friends!!!
Isa 45:22 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 He shall say, Only in Jehovah do I have righteousness and strength; to Him he comes; and they are ashamed, all who are angry with Him.
Everyone will see!!, everyone will be saved!!!, everyone will understand and say- "only in Jehovah do I have righteousness and strength"
Rom 14:7 For no one of us lives to himself and no one dies to himself.
Rom 14:8 For both if we live, we live by the Lord; and if we die, we die by the Lord. Then both if we live, and if we die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For this Christ both died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why also do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it has been written, "As I live, says the Lord, that every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue confess to God." Isa. 45:23
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And
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all the offenses, and those who practice lawlessness.
Mat 13:42 And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous will shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears to hear, let him hear.
the furnace of fire is a refiners furnace. Arefiner does not destroy the precious metal but takes out the impurities(sin) and purifies the precious metal.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who will stand when He appears?(every knee shall bow) For He is like a refiner's fire and like fuller's soap. (cleansing)
Mal 3:3 And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and He shall purify the sons of Levi and purge them like gold and like silver, that they may be presenters of a grain offering in righteousness to Jehovah.
Mal 3:4 Then the grain offering of Judah and Jerusalem shall be pleasing to Jehovah
Mal 3:18 Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who does not serve Him.
We are told if we show Love and kindness to our enemy it will be like heaping burning coals upon his head, when God does the same, it is called the lake of fire and brimstone.
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I hear you, Dan.
(1Jo 4:16) And we have known and have believed the love which God has in us. God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God in him.
(1Jo 4:17) By this, love has been perfected with us, that we have confidence in the day of judgment, that as He is, we are also in this world.
(1Jo 4:18) There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love.
(1Jo 4:19) We love Him because He first loved us.
As He is, we are also in this world. His kingdom is not of this world, so we are hated by all men for His names sake. Crucified to the flesh, with His Spirit in us, alive to His light, no longer asleep. And that Light is His love, which we learn of through suffering, because of our stubborness, that God truly is Love.
God bless,
Gary
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Well said Gary.
"And that Light is His love, which we learn of through suffering, because of our stubborness"
reminds me of this
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 You have forgotten the encouragement that is addressed to you as sons: "My son, do not think lightly of the Lord's discipline or give up when you are corrected by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he punishes every son he accepts."
Heb 12:7 What you endure is for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as sons. Is there a son whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 Now if you are without any discipline, in which all sons share, then you are illegitimate and not his sons.
Many think the sons of God are sinless. But Sin if the very thing we are diciplined for.
So can we go on sinning so as to be diciplined to prove we are sons of God?(shall we go on sinning so as to increase grace)
Of course not, we are still called not to sin.
The only way a sinner can be Christ like, is to LOVE and show Mercy!!
1Pe 4:8 Above all, continue to love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins.
Mat 5:7 "How blessed are those who are merciful, for it is they who will receive mercy!
1Jo 2:9 The person who says that he is in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
As horrible as sin is, if it did not have a good purpose, God would have not created it in the first place.
Isa 45:7 forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.
Paul was able to live at peace with his flesh, he understood the purpose of the flesh, and that it was to be only for a short time.
He also realized it was the flesh working sin and not him.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do. (not did but do)
Rom 7:16 But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now I no longer work it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to will is present to me, but to work out the good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, when I desire to do the right, that evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.
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1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.
OF Course Paul goes on to say, since we know this, we DO NOT go on sinning. We are to, daily, put the sinning flesh on a symbolic cross. And be dead to sin so as our mind may be winning the battle over our flesh.
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Amen Bobby