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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: newgene87 on April 05, 2012, 02:17:40 AM

Title: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: newgene87 on April 05, 2012, 02:17:40 AM
Alright, got caught in a disturbing conversation, well, discussion, on the new testament and the Apostle Paul. It ended up being, the Gospels vs Paul. Now; this is beyond the mere James vs Paul, and are we justified by faith or works; but Paul....I'm noticing from his own epistles some disturbing notions. And I need some help and I wonder has anyone else noticed it. Now, this is ONLY regarding Paul's Epistles and writings. Not the Torah, Scriptures, or the Gospel accounts of our Lord but this figure Paul...

The first BIG one is basically where the doctrine of Communion comes from. Paul says, "For I have received of the Lord...that the Lord Jesus the night in which He was betrayed took bread...he brake and said, Take eat: this is my body, WHICH IS BROKEN FOR YOU...." (1 Corinthians 11:23-24). Now was this really 'of the Lord'? First off, neither of His bones were broken..."He keeps all His bones: not ONE of them is BROKEN" (Psalm 34:20)(John 19:36). An Jesus actually said, "...this is my body which is GIVEN for you" (Luke 22:19).

And since Paul's epistles are filled with his statements, boasts, and a lot of Self, has anyone noticed Paul's says "I" and "Me" a lot. Hes even said, "speak 'I', NOT the Lord..." (1Corinthians 7:12). And anyone else noticed how Paul speaks highly of the sufferings he's been through, he counts himself among the chiefest apostles (2Cor 12:11), every single letter he mentions himself; and not so bad, cause James did, peter but not after those verses; Paul usually rants on about himself. And it brings to mind Jesus teaching, "He that speaks of Himself seeks His own glory..." and a few verses above, "My doctrine is not MINE, but HIS that sent me" (John 7:16,18).

Interesting enough, Paul mentions "My Gospel" a view times (Rom. 2:16; 16:25; 2 Tim. 2.. The middle verse in there, Paul makes a crazy statement, "...according to MY GOSPEL, AND the preaching of Jesus Christ".....wowsers....that just strikes me in such a negative fashion. Paul speaks so much of himself and his teaching who's to say that it's even Christs words? But his own wisdom?

"Gospel of uncircumcision" (differentiating from Peters), yet Peter FIRST received the revelation of the Gentiles. And why is it any different?? Jesus came and Preached the gospel of the kingdom of the Heavens/God yet Paul is referring to "His" gospel and 'includes' Jesus. Ok...what's up with that? Next, the deal on Salvation and life. "one came and said unto...what good thing shall I do, that I may have age-abiding life? (now, Jesus did not state or even hint, 'confess with your mouth the Lord and believe in your heart you shall be saved or by grace through faith as Paul does) but went on to preaching obedience to the commandments. The boy lacked something; and it was to give to the poor and follow Him." (Matthew 19:16-21).

Reading through the Gospels which I have been doing for 2 weeks straight heavily, Jesus preached to save yourself was to essentially save/love others. From the good samaritan parable, to the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:33-46). It's about loving your neighbor, loving God, obeying his word, and giving to the poor. Paul brought teachings on the spirit, and grace and diminishing of the law, and even tho he attempted to uphold the law: by stating "all things are lawful unto me" twice kinda annuls him upholding the law. Not saying he was not a good guy but what if he was the stumbling block for followers of Jesus?

He even stated in Galatians that after his conversions he did NOT converse with those who ACTUALLY WALKED AND TALKED WITH JESUS; why?

Now, my last problem....out of the 7 churches John was told to write to in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the first church was EPHESUS, the very church Paul wrote to. And says, "I know your works, and your labor, and your patience, and how you can not bear them which are evil: and you have tried them which SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES, and are not, and have found them liars..." (2:2). Good epistle and all but I am noticing the major differences in the Gospels and Paul. And now it's making me question him. Never the Gospels, not My lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but Paul.

How did Paul get SOOOO big in The Holy Scriptures, when He does contradict himself. (Galatians 2:11-21 = Acts 16:3)(1 Corinthians 10:33 = Galatians 1:10). And where did Jesus ever do away with circumcision as Paul so boldly states? Hes the only one so boldly that throws out circumcision (even though it doesn't matter) but, what about what Jesus taught?



***broken into paragraphs as best I could for easier reading--Dave***
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2012, 02:24:19 AM
I didn't read through your entire post just to be upfront with you but judging by your title, this topic has come up before and ray wrote an extensive article about it, I BELIEVE.

I think its one of those hidden links on the website and I can't remember the name of the direct link.

If i'm wrong about the above, than this information about paul is probably in one of rays articles and I can't remember which one. Ill try and find it for you but maybe a moderator will get to it before I do.

Basically, Paul is an apostle. You can't let every wind of change blow you around like this. Take a breath, study, grow, don't let everything shake you up.

With love,

Alex

Edit: One thread about it: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13303.msg117220.html#msg117220

Nothing from ray yet, still searching!

FOUND IT!!!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html

It's not hidden, it was an audio article. Haha. Sorry xD

Its entitled: "Do James and Paul contradict?" But it also goes into the subject as to whether Paul was really a discple of Christs or not, talks about the whole law idea you brought up in your post etc..

To put it in rays final words on the matter about this in the link I provided: "Well anyway, I hope that clears up that Paul is not a heretic and James is not a epistle of straw that needs to be burned. They both agreed on this completely, there is no contradiction and it’s not that hard to see."

I hope this helps you! :)
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 05, 2012, 04:56:11 AM
I can see this possibly turning into a long thread since you've raised so many issues. 

I have a couple of questions for you first.

1.  Would the answers to these concerns be for your edification?  Or would they be to "argue" with your 'conversation/discussion' mate who presumably is not here.  Your answer will determine my motivation to dig, search, and type replies.

2.  Do you have any confidence in the book of Acts?


This study may give you some background on why Paul is sooooo big in the Scriptures.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: cjwood on April 05, 2012, 05:31:06 AM
newgene, i think perhaps your confusion might be based in focus, translations, and different nuances of the same word.

i was looking at the different verses you used, in the different translations i had at hand.  the kjv, the clt/nt, and rotherham's.  then i looked at the main words you were focusing on, with regards to the words used by paul and the apostles, "broken/brake(s)/given".  i think some of your confusion might be helped by looking deeper into these words .  never, ever, ever, is there any contradiction in the Scriptures; only confusion in our understanding of them.  "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." (2 tim. 3:16)

anyway, i looked up these words in the strong's expanded, exhaustive concordance, and found some interesting and exciting things, leading me deeper into other verses noted in the info given.  (like on a treasure hunt!)

the braking and the broken and the giving, all have to do with Jesus Christ.  but, the word "broken" when speaking of the bones of Jesus, and the word "broken" when Christ is speaking of taking and eating of His body, which was "broken" for the apostle's by Jesus at the Lord's supper, carry different word meanings in the greek. 

the word broken in reference to the bones of Jesus' actual physical body, carries the meaning of crushing completely/shattering/breaking to pieces.  the words brakes and broken, in reference to the bread and the body of Christ, given by Him at the last supper, carry the meaning of breaking off pieces as when eating and sharing a loaf of bread.  Jesus and the apostles shared a few loaves of bread with many disciples.  Jesus was the one who did the initial breaking of the loaves.  each time, Jesus blessed the bread, then broke it, then gave it to the apostles to share with all the people.  so many hungry people.  He never gave the bread without breaking it first.  Jesus' words are the bread of life.  the Spiritual manna.  broken from the same loaf, into many, many pieces.  and the Scriptures say that they did all eat and were filled.

so with regards to the stuff about paul and these words, there is NO contradiction.  zip, nil, nada...

claudia

p.s.  i didn't read the whole thread either.  just kind of started at the beginning and got off into that, then stopped.  must go to bed.....





Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: onelovedread on April 05, 2012, 07:50:06 AM
Just a suggestion, new gene, but since you've been reading the gospels, how about moving on into the book of Acts? I think a reading of it will place your issues in context. I feel it may help give you more insight into who Paul really was, and how submitted he was to Jesus Christ. Maybe it will, maybe not, but hey, give it an open-minded shot, my brother, and see if it settles some of your concerns.
Onelove
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: arion on April 05, 2012, 09:17:06 AM
Paul an apostle??

2Co 11:24-31  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Gal 6:17  From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.


There are no contradictions between the writings of Paul and the rest of the apostles.  The word of God doesn't contradict.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: eggi on April 05, 2012, 10:18:01 AM
Hi newgene,

First of all, Jesus Christ Himself chose Paul as His apostle:
(Act 9:15)  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Secondly, Paul was acknowledged by the whole church at Jerusalem as an apostle of Jesus Christ.
(Acts 15:22)
Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas,

May God bless you with faith in His Word.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Revilonivek on April 05, 2012, 12:01:01 PM
Good Question-

It is something that we all have to study and see for ourselves. the Apostles never seem to live on their titles. Paul is the only one who constantly called himself an apostle and boasted that he received the gospel from God and no one else taught him. Even if he was with Barnabas, being an apostle. He never claimed on that title. Paul constantly did with his. You have to admit that he and James and peter weren't always on good terms. Paul called Peter a hypocrite, and later on..  James and his people confronted Paul because the jews who followed Apostle James weren't sure that Paul was sincere in his faith. Surely Alot of them were Jews He persecuted in his old days. He never apologized to them at all.  he lied his way around.  When he was arrested by roman soldiers and bought to high priest court. He denied himself and claimed himself as a pharisee to save himself. He was protected by soldiers as he moved away from Jerusalem.  It's all in the NT.

The parts in Revelations and what Paul said in Timothy bothered me as well. We know that Epheus and many other churches are in Asia.

Jesus said to the church of Ephesus.

"I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Rev. 2:2

Paul makes this statement to Timothy.

"This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me."   2Timothy 1:15

Revelations also says...
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Who knows...

Denise
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: arion on April 05, 2012, 12:15:41 PM

Who knows...

Denise

Not to start a fight but a topic worthy of consideration is do we think that the word of God contradicts?  If we do then we have some real deep problems on our hand.  As Ray has taught us many times the word of God on the surface appears to contradict but when you dig into it and God gives us revelation we find that the entire word harmonizes from top to bottom.  It might be very helpful to review the paper '12 God given truths to understand his word' on the front page.  Specifically truth #10 where Ray teaches on the relative and the absolute when it comes to God's word.  It may help to clear up some confusion on this issue.  If Paul was not an apostle then we might as well tear out almost half of the new testament and then where does that leave us if we go down that rabbit trail?  Leads us right back into Babylon friends.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: GaryK on April 05, 2012, 12:37:35 PM
And now it's making me question him. Never the Gospels, not My lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but Paul.



2 Timothy 3:16

King James Version (KJV)
16   All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



Quote
You can't let every wind of change blow you around like this. Take a breath, study, grow, don't let everything shake you up.   Lilitalienboi16

>>>good!<<<
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: eggi on April 05, 2012, 12:49:31 PM

If Paul was not an apostle then we might as well tear out almost half of the new testament and then where does that leave us if we go down that rabbit trail?  Leads us right back into Babylon friends.

And this is exactly what many have done. These days there is a "Hebrew roots" movement sweeping through Christianity. Many of the Hebrew Roots congregations have a problem with what Paul is saying regarding the law of Moses. They are then left with two possibilities, either they twist the words of Paul into saying that Christians must obey the law of Moses, or they get rid of him altogether, saying that he was a false apostle, or that he was too Hellenistic in his interpretation of the Scriptures. Some Hebrew roots congregations leave out Christ's work of redemption as well, saying that His mission was just to renew the Torah, and that it is through observing the Torah that we are saved. So obviously we can see what these ideas lead to...

To doubt Paul's status as a CHOSEN VESSEL by Christ is a discussion that I don't even want to get sucked into. As Arion mentioned, we might as well then tear out half of the New Testament.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Revilonivek on April 05, 2012, 12:54:59 PM
Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration.  God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 05, 2012, 01:41:11 PM
There were those in Paul's day that didn't care much for Paul.  They haunted him in every church he started and followed him from place to place to see if they could siphon off from or take credit for his ministry.  What do you reckon he said or did about that?

Did Paul really boast?  Do you know what an Apostle is?   

Let me say that it took me a while to 'like' Ray and it took me a while to 'like' Paul...but it wasn't for anything that Paul actually said or did, but what I ""felt"" he said or did.  I encourage you, since you've spent two whole weeks reading the 'gospels' to spend at least a couple of days reading Acts, and then some more time reading the epistles of Paul.  ALL the words.  In a readable translation. 

For purposes of the forum, I'm willing to leave this up a little while--at least until Gene indicates where he's coming from.  Ray has plenty to say about Paul, and Paul is monumentally easy to "defend" for those of us inclined to do so.  I'm in that "us"...that's not just diplomatic-speak.  That doesn't mean we're going to entertain every whim or allow the thread to break the rules or become too unwieldy to read.       
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: eggi on April 05, 2012, 01:54:12 PM
Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration.  God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.

Denise, I'm sorry you feel that way.

This is written by Peter the Apostle:
2 Peter 3:14-16: Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Since Peter, in a letter where he discusses FALSE TEACHERS, obviously approves of Paul as a BELOVED BROTHER, then I think it is clear that Paul is not "an example of a false prophet". Or should we suggest that Peter is also false? What about the rest of the apostles?

What exactly is it that just doesn't feel right with Paul?
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Kat on April 05, 2012, 01:59:09 PM

If you don't believe that Paul is a true Apostle, then how can you believe any of the gospel? He is a primary writer of the NT Scripture.  Peter makes it clear that he supported Paul's writings and as a fellow apostle. Peter and obviously the other apostles stood behind Paul or else they would not have approved and canonized his books for the NT.  If you call into question Paul, as he is a pivotal writer and teacher of so many truths, how do you stand behind this truth at all?

Here is some things that Ray said about Paul at the conference "How We Got The Bible.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html -----------------------

But look at this.

II Peter 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.
v. 15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;

Who did Paul write all his epistles to? The Gentiles. Paul is now in prison in Roman and Peter is writing to the Gentiles. What is going on here? Apparently Paul wanted him to, because Paul can’t get these letters out being in Roman, like he use to.

II Peter 3:16  as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things;

What did Peter know about “all his (Paul’s) epistles”? Because Peter had them. He had them all. How did he get them?

II Tim. 4:11  Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with you; for he is useful to me for ministering.
v. 12  But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
v. 13  The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou come, and the books, ESPECIALLY THE PARCHMENTS.

These are Paul’s letters. These are not the books, but the vellums, these are his epistles. Why would he want all his epistles? Didn’t he know what he said? Well he knows his time is near the end and Paul knows what he has written is Scripture. We read many Scripture showing that he knew that he was writing ‘Bible verses’ if you will. 
Now Paul wants Mark to come and bring those letters, because he’s going to go through them. In fact he’s going to edit some of them.
v
Consider one thing, Paul both understood Judaic theology and the classic works of the Gentiles. He was an intellectual both among the Jews and the Gentiles. He would have been the last person on earth to believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Paul persecuted TO DEATH those who followed the teachings of Jesus.
v
Another thing is Paul was maybe the greatest single champion for Jesus Christ, of any man that ever lived and he was no dummy. This guy studied under Rabbi Gamaliel, one of the greatest teachers of all times in the Jewish ways. Paul was from Tarsus the center for Stoic learning. You don’t bamboozle somebody like Paul. Especially because he is out persecuting the church and then he turns around and he defends it. What would change a well educated man like that? What would change him? For Paul to have his mind totally changed, required proof beyond question or contradiction. PAUL DIED FOR HIS BELIEF THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD, that He both died and was resurrected.
v
II Cor. 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me,

Paul makes no bones about it, he says, I was given a lot of revelations from God. Well these revelations weren’t given to him just for his pride and vanity. So he knew all this stuff and this was going to be written down as Scripture, not everything, but a lot.
Paul may have written hundreds of letters, he probably wrote letters all the time. But they were not all destined to be in the canon or the Scripture.

Eph 3:3-7  how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I was made a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

So in other ages, in the Old Testament this stuff was not known. They did not know what Paul was telling them. This is new revelation from God, “as it has now been revealed by the Spirit.” So there are apostles and prophets at the time of Paul. He was an Apostle and anybody who speaks, sings or writes inspired writing from God is a prophet. 

Col 1:25 whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, TO FULFILL THE WORD OF GOD, 

This is not saying, that I Paul am fulfilling some Scripture that talks about me being an Apostle? No. There is no Old Testament Scripture that prophesied about Paul being an Apostle. None. He’s not fulfilling some prophecy about himself. 
He’s filling up his writing - his prophesying - his inspired writing - his teachings of the mystery of Christ, his version of the gospel given to him. This is going to fill up the Word of God, complete it, see. 
We have to be careful that we don’t put interpretations on words that isn’t there. To fill it means to fill it full, to fill it up full, the Word of God.


Col 1:26  the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to His saints,

How? Through Paul’s writings, and Peters, James, Jude and John. 

I Cor. 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

These things are straight from the Lord. Straight from God. All this stuff that Paul is writing, is Scripture.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: John from Kentucky on April 05, 2012, 02:56:09 PM
Satan is boring.  He does the same things over and over.  Satan likes to cast doubts about the Word of God.

That's what he did with Eve.  He told her God had lied.

God's word is truth.  The scriptures are the written word of God and tells us the truth about God and His ways.  Paul's writings are scripture inspired by God.  They are clear in the middle of the New Testament.

Not only this thread, but other recent threads on the Forum have tried the same thing.  They consist of paragraph after paragraph of nutty, false, lies about the scriptures.  These threads also mention "love". 

Does Satan think he can fool the Spirit of God?

http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm  This is a link where Ray discusses the wolves among us.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2012, 03:03:45 PM
Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration.  God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.

Denise, I'm sorry you feel that way.

This is written by Peter the Apostle:
2 Peter 3:14-16: Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Since Peter, in a letter where he discusses FALSE TEACHERS, obviously approves of Paul as a BELOVED BROTHER, then I think it is clear that Paul is not "an example of a false prophet". Or should we suggest that Peter is also false? What about the rest of the apostles?

What exactly is it that just doesn't feel right with Paul?

That's my dear brother, is the nail in the coffin. Thank you for that piece of scripture. Paul was indeed a beloved brother, a vessel of mercy and honor chosen by our Lord and Saviour.

Edit: In the article I linked of "Do james and paul contradict?" Ray makes some very strong points and blows out water some of this nonsense about paul not being a real apostle and heretic. People just need to go read it.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: indianabob on April 05, 2012, 05:09:54 PM
Dear Folks,

It might be helpful for those wondering about Paul to consider the following:
It is my understanding that Jesus said plainly that he came to the Jews, the circumcision and not to any others. Jesus did not send his 12 apostles to the gentiles, in fact he forbid them to go to the gentiles and they didn't for ten or twenty years.
It was years after Lord Jesus' ascension that he called and sent Saul/Paul specifically to the gentiles.
All the while the 12 were keeping the law of the Jews in their personal lives.
So apparently, Jesus wanted it that way UNTIL the time was right to send a specially prepared apostle to the gentiles. Why?
1 Cor 1:22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul makes it quite clear that he was not taught by any man or any apostle or other believer, but that he was taught directly by Lord Jesus while living in Arabia for three years.
It seems that Jesus knew that a different approach would be needed for these divergent groups.
It was and still is difficult for even a believer to give up serving the law and put faith in God's grace.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: eggi on April 05, 2012, 05:30:41 PM
Dear Folks,

It might be helpful for those wondering about Paul to consider the following:
It is my understanding that Jesus said plainly that he came to the Jews, the circumcision and not to any others. Jesus did not send his 12 apostles to the gentiles, in fact he forbid them to go to the gentiles and they didn't for ten or twenty years.
It was years after Lord Jesus' ascension that he called and sent Saul/Paul specifically to the gentiles.
All the while the 12 were keeping the law of the Jews in their personal lives.
So apparently, Jesus wanted it that way UNTIL the time was right to send a specially prepared apostle to the gentiles. Why?
1 Cor 1:22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul makes it quite clear that he was not taught by any man or any apostle or other believer, but that he was taught directly by Lord Jesus while living in Arabia for three years.
It seems that Jesus knew that a different approach would be needed for these divergent groups.
It was and still is difficult for even a believer to give up serving the law and put faith in God's grace.

Excellent point, Bob!
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Revilonivek on April 05, 2012, 05:49:28 PM
I don't want us all to have to feel defensive on this.  It's how we learn from eachother.   

I only shared my concerns is all. It doesn't mean I think i'm right. It is just concerns.

1. We used to perceive our pastors or leaders our beloved brothers of God at one point. We believed them. Maybe the Apostles did too.  They must have experienced people like that, just like we did. We were deceived at first. Why would you say the Apostles weren't decieved at all at first?  Jesus warned that there will be many coming after he leaves. Those who teach that Jesus is christ. Paul may be a beloved brother at first.

2. Would you trust those who come to you and say They received their gospel from no one else but God and was taught by God only. didn't learn it from anywhere or anybody. Not even from the Apostles.  Of course Naturally, you would be apprehensive of that.  Why would it be any different back then during Apostles' time. 

3. Why did he steal from other churches to serve his own church?

4. Why did James and other Jews doubt Paul's sincerity at one point?

5. Why did he lie about himself to the high priest and the governor? why did he deny himself and say he is a pharisee when faced a high priest and lie again to the governor for his own protection?

6. Why did Paul confess to Timothy how he felt, that all the churches in Asia left him? Why did Jesus praise the church of Epheus that they tried those who claim to be an apostle but turned out to be an false apostle?

7. We used to look up to our leaders as they were righteous and all knowing but we learned the truth about them eventually later... What if Paul is an example of what we deal with? Leaders of today believed in their truths. Like Ray said, Apostles learned as they lived their life- they spiritually grew and got to know the truth. They weren't already there by the time Jesus ascended. They learned as time went.  granted God used paul to spread the gospel to the gentiles. So did God use many leaders of today to help you and me come to the knowledge of this great truth of the real good news..  it was necessary....

The stories about Paul- it seems to reflect the preachers/ leaders of today. There  are many that are sincere in what they believe in... but they do have flaws.

I have an open mind- If Ray says Paul is one of the good guys. Then great. It just doesn't address my concerns about Paul listed above. If you can- I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 05, 2012, 06:21:31 PM
If you're going to make a list of accusations against Paul, then please present the evidence from Scripture.  I'm prepared to refute some of what Gene mentioned, but I'm not a bible-encyclopedia.  If you're all ears, then give a guy a break and at least point out from scripture where you get these.   
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Craig on April 05, 2012, 06:39:17 PM
Or at least a couple of them.  Denise you are like a flag in the wind.  I like that you are a searcher but you gotta realize a person can search and read the internet and find a good hypothesis on about any subject, I even found a pretty convincing site that claimed the moon was made of cheese.

Eventually you will need to pick your side, flying in the wind will give you no ground to stand on.  The forum is not here to defend against the thousands of sites on the internet that do nothing but detract from the Word of God.  They can be very convincing, so it really comes down to faith and what side you want to be on. 

If you believe the original scriptures are inspired by God, then that has to be your roadmap or rulebook.  So if you find questions, such as the ones you give about Paul and want to ask them, then you at least need to give scripture to back it up, and remember the golden rule of study; you need at least two witnesses to defend that scripture.

Please don't use a shotgun approach, it is not fruitful and honestly it is irritating :).  Just start with one or two questions, defend what you see with scripture and give the members a chance to see if your point is valid. If you cannot defend your points with scripture, but perhaps maybe others can defend theirs, you must be ready to change your mind or agree to disagree and move on.  I don't care what you believe, even the moon being made of cheese, but we can't continually bring in teachings or opinions of others outside the forum, that is not the purpose.

Craig
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2012, 06:44:48 PM
My thiuughts exactly! We are told that we will know them by their fruit. Rev you seem to be throwing around a lot of so called "rotten fruit" that apparently paul left laying all over the place, but I just haven't seen it in the scriptures so please do share these passages of rotten fruit with us.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: newgene87 on April 05, 2012, 10:52:44 PM
Okay. Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm not the one for confrontation: "a wise WILL hear, and will increase learning..." (Pro 1:5), so trust me, I am listening (actually reading) and taking everything in. To correct some speculation this is not a question on the Scriptures or the Word of God. Someone stated if you take away Paul you take away the New Testament...... what a slap in the face for the Gospels, James, Peter, John (the pillars of the Gospel); the ones who actually SAW and Walked with Jesus during His ministry. Matthews Gospel alone has truths throughout it and all of Jesus parables actually cover Life as we should live, in His name. So, no, Paul is Not THAT big. And that's my concern as well, Paul has been elevated to Jesus Himself - and that should not be the case. His writings have taken importance over Jesuss own words, the Torah, and the Prophets. But I'm taking all the insight in and came HERE for comments cause believe it or not, I LOVE this forum and everyone's insight and comments: and there is a lot of wisdom here. So instead of googling, or finding a pastor, why not the bible-truths forum :-D. People who seek the truth. So thanks for the insight. thanks to everyone for the words. For myself- I'll just uphold Jesus's words as chief in my learning and the scriptures. Im still a little shaken on Paul, from his mysterious name change from Saul (within a verse), his excessive talk of himself ("He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory...." John 7:17-18). And Paul spoke of himself a lot. Oh well, 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 8, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 2 are still GOLDEN writings so I'll just leave it to God and be knowledgeable in the Word. Thanks family :).
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: John from Kentucky on April 05, 2012, 11:16:49 PM
Okay. Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm not the one for confrontation: "a wise WILL hear, and will increase learning..." (Pro 1:5), so trust me, I am listening (actually reading) and taking everything in. To correct some speculation this is not a question on the Scriptures or the Word of God. Someone stated if you take away Paul you take away the New Testament...... what a slap in the face for the Gospels, James, Peter, John (the pillars of the Gospel); the ones who actually SAW and Walked with Jesus during His ministry. Matthews Gospel alone has truths throughout it and all of Jesus parables actually cover Life as we should live, in His name. So, no, Paul is Not THAT big. And that's my concern as well, Paul has been elevated to Jesus Himself - and that should not be the case. His writings have taken importance over Jesuss own words, the Torah, and the Prophets. But I'm taking all the insight in and came HERE for comments cause believe it or not, I LOVE this forum and everyone's insight and comments: and there is a lot of wisdom here. So instead of googling, or finding a pastor, why not the bible-truths forum :-D. People who seek the truth. So thanks for the insight. thanks to everyone for the words. For myself- I'll just uphold Jesus's words as chief in my learning and the scriptures. Im still a little shaken on Paul, from his mysterious name change from Saul (within a verse), his excessive talk of himself ("He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory...." John 7:17-18). And Paul spoke of himself a lot. Oh well, 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 8, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 2 are still GOLDEN writings so I'll just leave it to God and be knowledgeable in the Word. Thanks family :).

What you do not understand is that Paul's words are  Jesus' words.

Jesus is the Word of God.  All the scriptures from Genesis through Revelation are Jesus' words.  The various human writers of the scriptures did so under the direct inspiration of God.  There is no such thing as free will.  The human writers wrote what God wanted them to write.

The scriptures are God's biography; they tell us about God.  There are no true contradictions in the scriptures.  They teach us the truths of God.  You can only understand the scriptures by the Spirit of God.  Paul's words are the truths of God along with the rest of the scriptures.  The scriptures are a seamless whole.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html

P.S.  newgene,  if you are sincerely interested in understanding, read the bible study from Ray in the above link.  A little ways down from the top is a section on how God does not lie, followed by a section on how God's word does not lie.  The entire study gives insight into the unity and simplicity of God's word.

If you are meant to understand, you will.  If not, we'll catch you later.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2012, 11:46:21 PM
Okay. Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm not the one for confrontation: "a wise WILL hear, and will increase learning..." (Pro 1:5), so trust me, I am listening (actually reading) and taking everything in. To correct some speculation this is not a question on the Scriptures or the Word of God. Someone stated if you take away Paul you take away the New Testament...... what a slap in the face for the Gospels, James, Peter, John (the pillars of the Gospel); the ones who actually SAW and Walked with Jesus during His ministry. Matthews Gospel alone has truths throughout it and all of Jesus parables actually cover Life as we should live, in His name. So, no, Paul is Not THAT big. And that's my concern as well, Paul has been elevated to Jesus Himself - and that should not be the case. His writings have taken importance over Jesuss own words, the Torah, and the Prophets. But I'm taking all the insight in and came HERE for comments cause believe it or not, I LOVE this forum and everyone's insight and comments: and there is a lot of wisdom here. So instead of googling, or finding a pastor, why not the bible-truths forum :-D. People who seek the truth. So thanks for the insight. thanks to everyone for the words. For myself- I'll just uphold Jesus's words as chief in my learning and the scriptures. Im still a little shaken on Paul, from his mysterious name change from Saul (within a verse), his excessive talk of himself ("He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory...." John 7:17-18). And Paul spoke of himself a lot. Oh well, 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 8, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 2 are still GOLDEN writings so I'll just leave it to God and be knowledgeable in the Word. Thanks family :).

I really feel like you did not read the links that were provided to you by anyone here.

Is it possible that Saul's "mysterious" name change had something to do with his radical change in heart in the blink of eye. From the worlds foremost sinner to maybe the greatest single champion for Jesus Christ? Just maybe it has to do with this?

His "excessive talk of himself?" Can you link these scriptures when making such accusations. I honestly want to see Paul seeking "his own glory."

But yea, those are golden writings aren't they?

You're welcome :)

Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 05, 2012, 11:54:18 PM
I'm just curious, what does everyone think of a passage like this:

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

If Luke wrote Acts, and luke is writting here that Paul was filled with the holy spirit of God, why is this not good enough authority for people? Shouldn't this erase all doubt of Paul, when even Luke is saying that he was filled with the holy spirit? Unless people want to start saying that luke wasn't a real apostle too, or that we can't trust the word of God. Surely God doesn't fill those who are misleading His flock astray with the holy spirit. Filled is a strong word.

Peter also referencing paul in a similar mannor:

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

If you can't trust the Word of God, than what exactly are you building your foundation with/on?
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Joel on April 06, 2012, 01:31:00 AM
Paul was a follower of Jesus Christ to the utmost, just as the Lord said he would be, as it is recorded in The Acts of The Apostles and other writings.
Paul said this;
1st Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Those are words I take to heart in my ever day life, and apply to those I respect that share the Gospel in today's world.

Joel
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: newgene87 on April 06, 2012, 02:28:40 AM
Okay, gotta reply to this..this was longer than I expected, but a few asked for scriptures, here they are.  Now, responding to...

His "excessive talk of himself?" Can you link these scriptures when making such accusations. I honestly want to see Paul seeking "his own glory."

Okay, now jus turn to any epistle you will see I, I, and I all throughout his epistles.... "I have written the more boldly unto you...that I should be the minister of Jesus... I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus...For I will not dare to speak of any of those thing... I have fully preached...so have I strived to preached" (Romans 15:15-24)...like really? You cant see the "I" I I in that. Paul puts HIMSELF right along "Christ Jesus" of the forefront in his letters. And quite frankly, it was a little disturbing. WAS now, cuz I'm beyond this, but I'm proving a point, Paul spoke of himself too much, when it's, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" (Matthew 24:14). And that should be Jesus Christ. Another example and this goes with what the lady said before, "I ROBBED other churches, taking wages to do you service. And when I was present..i was chargeable..." (2Cor 11:8). So it's okay to "take wages" and "rob" now?? Come on Paul. And says, "Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man...great my boldness...great my glorying: I am filled...I am..." (2Cor 7:2-4)....now, go and look up the Greek of corrupted, wrong and defraud: they all don't escaped Robbed or taking wages....next....."For I suppose I was in nothing behind the very chiefest apostles" (2Cor 11:5). Come on Paul, don't exalt yourself now. (kidding). Oh and another of Paul's statements, "that which I speak, I speak not after the Lord, but as it were IN FOLLY (foolishly), in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I WILL GLORY ALSO" (2Corinthians 11:17-18). Then, "I speak foolishly" in verse 21. Then he gets on a soap box, with some extra bricks for elevation and rants his experience in verses 24-28. ALL ABOUT HIM HIM HIM. Now there are your FEW scriptures proving the point of Him speaking of himself. Now OBVIOUSLY, I must keep in mind that these are merely true characteristics of a Letter. Yea yea, but JESUS said, those who claim themselves seek their own glory. When will the Very words of Jesus be upheld? Actually that entire chapter of 11 is about Paul.... What I'm getting at, he is the ONLY writer who uplifts himself. "Are they ministers of Christ? (I SPEAK AS A FOOL [his words now]) I AM MORE...." and all about what he's been through. [2Cor 11:23-28]. Paul actually goes on exalting himself, abasing himself and back and forth and AGAIN, if you don't see Paul is Speaking of himself than we have different bibles. And I'm a solely Rotherham, Youngs, and king james myself so I stay with a close to literal translation. It's almost as if Paul was writing to the Gentiles to follow him and read his epistles and that's the way to Christ (And those words almost certify the theory of Paul being the first pope....hmmm....he does sound popish). "be followers together of me..."(Phil 3:17) --- "Be ye followers of me, even as I also of Christ" (1Cor 11:1) --- "I beseech you, be ye followers of me" (1Cor 4:16).... Okay I know VERY little of cathlocism, and to each it's own, but this sounds like a pope. "Followers of Paul"???. And Jesus said, "Pick up your cross and to follow ME (Jesus)" Luke 9:23. Who is the TRUE shepherd we are to FOLLOW (John 10)?? Jus saying....Paul said words, JESUS Said. "for if i have boasted any thing to of you, i am not ashamed...I rejoice that I have confidence" (2Cor 7:14,16) Now I can finish this now; IM JUST SHOWING A FEW WRITINGS OF PAUL WHERE HE STATES HIMSELF, yes, "Excessively". For him to say follow me, multiple times, when Jesus says the same thing, its shaken me. I've started reading Rays paper on James and Paul. So give me time. So yea, there are the scriptures. 

And if I can't trust the word of God....how did Paul connect to the word of God???? I surely trust an believe Peter, James and Johns accounts and writing, I trust the gospels, the promises of the Torah, the prophets, even The mystery of the Book of the Revelations OF JESUS CHRIST. This was about Paul...and Jesus is before Paul in my faith. Actually Jesus teachings in the gospels are fairly different than Paul's epistles. So it's not like, without Paul, there is no scripture. Not true at all. The gospels and the writings of the Psalms is enough actually. But God has blessed with His word to be filled, as someone said before. And I receive that. Grace and peace to all.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 06, 2012, 02:30:06 AM
Did Paul boast? 

When I read these scriptures at age 16 or so, I did not like Paul much either.  I kept reading them through my late teens and twenties, still no seeing what was there.  Recently, I read them again and saw something quite different.  There's more preceding these that give even more 'weight' to what I saw, but I'll start here.  The verses are from various translations because I looked at several to verify the meaning and could not always remember which one I had used previously.  The italics are my attempt at a paraphrase.  Maybe this will help.

2Co 11:16  I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.

Don't think of me as a fool.  But if you do, take what I'm saying as the words of a fool so I can boast a little too (like those mentioned in preceding verses).

2Co 11:17  That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

What I'm about to say, I don't say it like the Lord would have us talk, but foolishly like the boasting I've been talking about for two chapters now.

2Co 11:18  Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19  For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

Since others seem to glory in their flesh, I'm going to do it too--speaking as a fool.  You enjoy their boasting, being, of course, so very wise yourselves.   ;)

2Co 11:20  For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

You put up with it if a man brings you into bondage, or eats you for lunch, or takes from you, or exalts himself, or smacks you on the face.

2Co 11:21  I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

I'm talking to you about disparagement as if we had been the ones doing it.  But if they dared to do it, then let me do it too, speaking as a fool.
 
2Co 11:22  Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 

Did they tell you they were Hebrews?  Well, so am I (truly).  Are they Israelites?  Me too (truly).  Are they the seed of Abraham?  So am I (truly).   The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.  I am ALL these things, and you are not.  How's that for some disparaging?

2Co 11:23  Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;

Are they ministers of Christ?  (Remember...I'm speaking as a fool.  I've already called them false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.   2Co 11:14,15 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.  It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness - whose consummation shall be according to their acts.

Well, I AM a minister of Christ doing an imitation of their boasting.

in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26  In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

I've been through an awful lot in the course of ministry.  If I'm being forced to 'glory', then I'll glory about my weaknesses.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.

Do you think it's a remote possibility that just perchance those false apostles, and fraudulent workers are?

2Co 11:32 In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas, the king, garrisoned the city of the Damascenes, wanting to arrest me, "
2Co 11:33 and I am lowered in a wicker basket through a window through the wall, and escaped his hands."

That time I got away.   ;)

2Co 12:1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord.

If I'm still being 'forced' to boast, though it's not easy to keep this up, let me tell about visions and revelations of the Lord.

2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
2Co 12:3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)
2Co 12:4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
2Co 12:5 Over such a one I shall be boasting; yet over myself I shall not be boasting, except in my infirmities.

Snatched away...got that?  Nothing to 'boast' about being 'snatched away'.  I'll speak of him as if he wasn't me.  The 'me' that's writing to you I won't boast about, except about my weakness.

2Co 12:6  For if I had a desire to take credit to myself, it would not be foolish, for I would be saying what is true: but I will not, for fear that I might seem to any man more than he sees me to be, or has word from me that I am.

If I ever had the desire to boast, I wouldn't be talking nonsense.  I'd be telling you what is true about these things.  But I won't boast for fear I would be making myself seem to be something a man can't tell by watching me or reading me.

2Co 12:7  And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.
2Co 12:8  And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.
2Co 12:9  And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

The revelations were so great...got it?

2Co 12:10  So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

2Co 12:11  I have been forced by you to become foolish, though it was right for my praise to have come from you: for in no way was I less than the chief of the Apostles, though I am nothing.

You've made me talk this way, acting like an idiot bragging on myself.  It's good to hear YOU say good things about me, however, because when I was with you, I was not less than the chief of the Apostles, even though I'm nothing.


Paul spoke as a fool--imitating those "false apostles and fraudulent workers" to differentiate himself (AND the Chief of the Apostles, for that matter) from them.  I have been around long enough to know that some 'universalists' think they are all the same.  If you think they are all the same, then you do not know what the gospel of the kingdom is--the same gospel preached (and lived) by Christ, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Jude.

Here's some required reading, I believe.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html  What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?

So did Paul boast?  Concerning himself, I think only when he was doing an imitation of those who did.   

Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Revilonivek on April 06, 2012, 02:42:12 AM
Please don’t get upset. IF you knew me by now, you would know I question and have hard questions for everything. I feel that blind acceptance of everything said in the bible is impossible for me. I deal with the nagging concerns by talking about it. I understand fully that by questioning Paul calls for trouble. I am sorry for that. Like I said.. Once it’s addressed.. It’s done and over with and I can move on away from this subject. It’s just something I need to tackle down. I am sorry if you feel I’m a rotten fruit. I’m not. I will gladly bite my tongue and refrain from discussing this here if you want me to.

Why would Paul say that he did not learn or receive his gospel from the Apostles nor was he taught it by anyone or anything except from Jesus Christ himself? I assume through visions? He even said himself that if we believe another gospel from anyone else or angels, except for Paul’s gospel to call them accursed? Galatians 1:8-9

Paul says he got his gospel from Jesus Christ himself, not anyone, nor was he taught it. Galatians 1:11-17

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
 14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
 15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
 16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
 17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Why did the Jews Christians of Asia complain to Apostle James about Paul? The Jews Christians seems to recognize him- as they were Ephesians Jews.
 
Acts 21.
18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
 19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
 27And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
 28Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
 29(For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesians, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

We know that in other parts of the scriptures  that was at Ephesus for months, talking and persuading with them. He had to leave because he said their hearts were hardened.

If you read Acts 21-25, you would see that Paul when things at the synagogue did not go well.
Jews from asia got upset when they saw him.. Complained to James.. It caused an uproar. Paul tried to calm it down by identifying himself as a Jew and told his story of how he got renewed. He saw that the Jews christians  weren’t buying it.

 He sought for the protection of Romans by identifying himself as Roman, then they took him to high priest- and when the Pharissees and Saucceedes spoke with him. He realized they were Pharissees and Sauccedees, he identified himself as an Pharisee and son of a Pharisee..Then Pharissees and Sauccedes got trapped in an dispute of their own about Paul.   then sought Roman’ protection and left Jerusalem to governor’s castle. He lived in roman Providence for a while- probably a couple years before he was bound and later killed.

I have also noticed that in Paul’s epistles that Paul always had to defend himself that he was not lying when he shared his revelations. What caused him to be this way? Romans 9:1, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Galations 1:19-20: , 1 Timothy 2:7:
I know Paul the apostle was the one who established  and is the founder of the church in Esphesus. What I don’t get is why the  people at Espheus were clearly upset with Paul when they saw him when visiting James and the elders In Jerusalem? You can read it in Acts 21-25.

Why did Jesus say this to the Esphesians in Revelations?

Revelation 2
 1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

I could list more scriptures that caught my eye.. but bottom line is

Paul does certainly stir the pot. It does cause tension with some people. That is why I want to look into it and clear it up. For my peace of mind. If you guys want me to take it elsewhere. I will. Again I apologize.

Denise

 
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 06, 2012, 03:06:58 AM
Did Paul boast? 

When I read these scriptures at age 16 or so, I did not like Paul much either.  I kept reading them through my late teens and twenties, still no seeing what was there.  Recently, I read them again and saw something quite different.  There's more preceding these that give even more 'weight' to what I saw, but I'll start here.  The verses are from various translations because I looked at several to verify the meaning and could not always remember which one I had used previously.  The italics are my attempt at a paraphrase.  Maybe this will help.

2Co 11:16  I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.

Don't think of me as a fool.  But if you do, take what I'm saying as the words of a fool so I can boast a little too (like those mentioned in preceding verses).

2Co 11:17  That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

What I'm about to say, I don't say it like the Lord would have us talk, but foolishly like the boasting I've been talking about for two chapters now.

2Co 11:18  Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19  For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

Since others seem to glory in their flesh, I'm going to do it too--speaking as a fool.  You enjoy their boasting, being, of course, so very wise yourselves.   ;)

2Co 11:20  For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

You put up with it if a man brings you into bondage, or eats you for lunch, or takes from you, or exalts himself, or smacks you on the face.

2Co 11:21  I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

I'm talking to you about disparagement as if we had been the ones doing it.  But if they dared to do it, then let me do it too, speaking as a fool.
 
2Co 11:22  Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Did they tell you they were Hebrews?  Well, so am I (truly).  Are they Israelites?  Me too (truly).  Are they the seed of Abraham?  So am I (truly).   The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.

2Co 11:23  Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;

Are they ministers of Christ?  (Remember...I'm speaking as a fool.  I've already called them false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.   2Co 11:14,15 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.  It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness - whose consummation shall be according to their acts.

Well, I AM a minister of Christ doing an imitation of their boasting.

in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26  In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

I've been through an awful lot in the course of ministry.  If I'm being forced to 'glory', then I'll glory about my weaknesses.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.

Do you think it's a remote possibility that just perchance those false apostles, and fraudulent workers are?

2Co 11:32 In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas, the king, garrisoned the city of the Damascenes, wanting to arrest me, "
2Co 11:33 and I am lowered in a wicker basket through a window through the wall, and escaped his hands."

That time I got away.   ;)

2Co 12:1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord.

If I'm still being 'forced' to boast, though it's not easy to keep this up, let me tell about visions and revelations of the Lord.

2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
2Co 12:3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)
2Co 12:4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
2Co 12:5 Over such a one I shall be boasting; yet over myself I shall not be boasting, except in my infirmities.

Snatched away...got that?  Nothing to 'boast' about being 'snatched away'.  I'll speak of him as if he wasn't me.  The 'me' that's writing to you I won't boast about, except in my weakness.

2Co 12:6  For if I had a desire to take credit to myself, it would not be foolish, for I would be saying what is true: but I will not, for fear that I might seem to any man more than he sees me to be, or has word from me that I am.

If I ever had the desire to boast, I wouldn't be talking nonsense.  I'd be telling you what is true about these things.  But I won't boast for fear I would be making myself seem to be something I am not.

2Co 12:7  And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.
2Co 12:8  And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.
2Co 12:9  And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

The revelations were so great...got it?

2Co 12:10  So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

2Co 12:11  I have been forced by you to become foolish, though it was right for my praise to have come from you: for in no way was I less than the chief of the Apostles, though I am nothing.

You've made me talk this way, acting like an idiot bragging on myself.  It's good to hear YOU say good things about me, however, because when I was with you, I was not less than the chief of the Apostles, even though I'm nothing.


Paul spoke as a fool--imitating those "false apostles and fraudulent workers" to differentiate himself from them.  I have been around long enough to know that some 'universalists' think they are all the same.  If you think they are all the same, then you do not know what the gospel of the kingdom is--the same gospel preached (and lived) by Christ, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Jude.

Here's some required reading, I believe.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html  What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?

So did Paul boast?  Concerning himself, I think only when he was doing an imitation of those who did.

Very beautifully put dave. Thank you for that.

To newgen, I have a huge problem with what you say here;

"Actually Jesus teachings in the gospels are fairly different than Paul's epistles. So it's not like, without Paul, there is no scripture. Not true at all. The gospels and the writings of the Psalms is enough actually."

First of all, I don't believe at all, for one second, that paul was preaching some other gospel other than the gospel that Jesus Christ too believed and preached. So to say they are fairly different is, in my opinion, far from the fact.

Second of all, to say that the gospels and the psalms are enough is to ignore; Psalm 119:160 The sum of Thy word [is] truth, And to the age [is] every judgment of Thy righteousness!

What we have in the scriptures presented to us now as the bible is exactly what God wants us to have and use as His complete Word. If we believe that God is fully in control that is.

Lastly, It seem as if you completely ignores the fact that the other apostles acknowledged paul as a man of Christ, a brother, an apostle. Luke, in writing acts, exclaims that paul was filled with the holy spirit and peter calls him a brother. Their authority alone is good for me, because I believe that they too, like paul, we're fully captives of Christ.

I don't know if there really is much else to say about this subject for me. I think ill just start going in circle from now one.

Anyway, thank you for the post dave.

God bless,

Alex
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 06, 2012, 03:12:17 AM
Denise, Paul WAS a Jew, and a Pharisee (a sect of Judaism), and a Roman citizen.  Unless I'm misunderstanding, it's no different than me saying of my former life:  I am an American Christian and a Baptist and carry a British passport.  Those things are not mutually exclusive.  Besides that, he was very familiar with Greek culture (the predominant culture of the day), and an educated man.  That's why he could say those things.  They were TRUE.  He was all things to all men so that by all means he could reach some.  SOME said they were this or that.  Paul WAS what he said. 

The 'trouble' you talked about is core to the Gospel of the Kingdom.  That meeting ended in agreement!
     
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 06, 2012, 03:22:16 AM
Dear Dennis,

I never called you a rotten fruit, just to clarify. I said; "Rev you seem to be throwing around a lot of so called "rotten fruit" that apparently paul left laying all over the place, but I just haven't seen it in the scriptures so please do share these passages of rotten fruit with us."

These rotten fruit were in reference to the things you were saying about paul without any support of scripture and the passages of rotten fruit were in reference to these passages that supposedly show us the real heretic that paul was.

It had nothing to do with YOU being a rotten fruit.

I am certainly amazed with the fact that someone can post scripture, specifically scripture showing that the people who knew Paul, spoke with him, preached along side him, believed firmly that he was a man of Christ and that these same scriptures go completely ignored by those who claims to doubt pauls authenticity. To me, that is greater than any verse of scripture you can quote from paul and INTERPRET YOURSELF and say, "you see, paul talked about himself in these versus, therefor he must be a heretic!"

At least with the versus where the other apostles speak of paul, there is no interpretation required, its just flat out statement that he was a "beloved brother" and a man "filled with the holy spirit."

Another issue is now we are pitting verses of scripture against one another, as if the scriptures contradict.

Either Paul was a beloved brother and a man filled with the holy spirit or paul was filled with vanity and arrogance and lifted himself up right beside Christ.To believe the latter, we have to interpret certain passages of scripture in such a way as to put them into direct opposition of the plain statements made by the other apostles. That also means we think peter and luke were just plain wrong. Can you see why I'm baffled as to this idea and reasoning? I mean, that's like saying you believe God's Word contradicts. Well maybe it's not God's Word.. maybe its the interpretation?

I guess I should let this one go.

Good luck with your struggle to understand this concept.

I have nothing but love towards you, even if in my moments of weakness my frustration comes through. For that, I apologize.

God bless,

Alex
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Rene on April 06, 2012, 11:00:14 AM
I believe it is a form of blasphemy to vehemently question the inspired writings of the Apostle Paul.   It is not a good thing to keep spewing this negative spirit.

René
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: GaryK on April 06, 2012, 12:03:25 PM
but bottom line is

Paul does certainly stir the pot. It does cause tension with some people. That is why I want to look into it Denise


Indeed Denise, Paul does certainly ‘stir the pot’ and I believe that was his mission set forth by God.   The whole word of God stirs the pot, and yes, too, the word of God causes tension……in the heart.  That isn’t a bad thing, that’s a good thing.   And just like what you and Gene are doing…the questioning…we’ve all done, also.   As for myself, I’ve never had a problem with Paul, he’s always been a glue and a hero for me when other writings were more questionable and hard to accept than Paul.    So I understand.   But as Ray repeats over and over again we all have begun to read “all the words”.  Don’t beat yourself for that.   Questioning is the precursory and that also comes from God.   This is what happens when one comes to a beginning of realizing something isn’t ‘right’ with what is taught in the church and a search begins for what is true.     How many times have you seen written on this forum and from Ray too that you’re not here by ‘accident’.   You question, you search, BAM!!.......you’re here.  But as Ray also teaches if the acceptance doesn’t so readily come to your heart, in part or whole, you can believe that is of plan also.........for a time.   I don’t believe anyone is judging hard for your questions, but, at some point and as Craig suggested the flag requires a gentle wind so as not to flap so wildly and a side is to be taken as to believing what is truth………..which I also believe is the full intent of every lesson, individually and collectively, of L. Ray Smith and Bible Truths.

gk
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Craig on April 06, 2012, 12:42:01 PM
Denise I like questions, blind faith has lead multitudes to destruction.

Now your latest post, it is toooo long.  Keep it to one, no more than two questions, find the scriptures you have that back up your question or confuse you and give members a chance to respond.  Keep the discussion focused on one thing and after it is hashed out as well as it can, ask the second question and so on.

If I dived head first into your posts I would get seasick ;) Old age I guess....

Craig
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: GaryK on April 06, 2012, 01:09:21 PM


Why did Jesus say this to the Esphesians in Revelations?

Revelation 2
 1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Denise


As for your question, Ray addresses this here:   http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html


"WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?


The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!
"…you have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev. 2:2.)
Where did the Ephesians try those false, lying, apostles? In some pagan temple or church down the street, or across town, or in some foreign land? Or maybe in the pagan religion of the Roman occupation? No, in the Church. Jesus Christ says:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write… thou have tried them which say they are apostles [in the church of Ephesus], and are not" (Rev. 2:1a & 2b.)
Where did Jesus know these lying apostles? Why, in the Church, of course. Of what consequence would "lying apostles" of some pagan religion be to the churches of God in Asia?
And where did Jesus say the synagogue of Satan is located? Same place—in the Church:
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write… I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [in the Smyrna church], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan… And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write… I will make them of the synagogue of Satan [in the Philadelphia church], and are not but do lie…" (Rev. 2:8 & 9; 3:7 & 9.)
All seven of the churches were well aware of many pagan gods and pagan religions. These seven cities in Asia were filled with MANY PAGAN GODS."

gk
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: santikos on April 06, 2012, 05:08:08 PM
After all the dust clears......Jesus is still the Savior of mankind
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: John from Kentucky on April 06, 2012, 06:41:17 PM
After all the dust clears......Jesus is still the Savior of mankind

Two of the principal verses supporting the salvation of all mankind are found in Paul's writings in 1st Timothy.

By trying to discredit Paul, Satan and his messengers hope to discredit the truth of universal salvation, among other things.

Isn't it ironic that Satan attacks now, during the Passover season?  He killed Jesus once.  Now he attempts to do the same thing by raising doubts about the Word of God, Who is Jesus.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 06, 2012, 08:49:03 PM
This thread is hanging by a thread.   :)  If it's gone on too long, blame me.

Gene, real deep spiritual truth is hard to come by.  Many would rather believe the lie.  I understand where at least some of your 'concerns' come from as I've had some of them myself.  They don't hold up under closer reading or other witnesses of Scripture which don't contradict.  I couldn't be happier (in my own case) that they do not.  Peter said that parts of Paul's writings were hard to understand, but Peter understood them.  Maybe you and I and the rest of us should be striving and praying to understand them too. 

It seems to me that a brief conversation/discussion with someone else has eroded your faith.  If that's just my imagination and not the case, then I'm sorry...though although I spent three hours trying to allay just ONE of your issues, you didn't even take the few seconds necessary to answer my questions--so it's at least understandable if I misunderstood.

I suppose in my ignorance it might be possible that you came here already convinced of Paul's alleged heresy.  I'd just have to refer you to the rules if that's the case.

It's discouraging to think of someone cutting out so much wisdom, information, practical real-life advice, psychological understanding, and help available in Paul's writings.  But let me tell you something I believe to be truth.  IF you decide to go the way you've indicated and 'believe and obey' only the words Jesus spoke, in the course of doing so, you will come to understand Paul, though it will be the hard way.  What a shame to let a religious hobbyist rob you of that treasure. 

Dig deeper and try to 'get it' now before you toss it away.  THAT'S why this thread is still running. 
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: DougE6 on April 07, 2012, 03:15:17 AM
I was wondering the Satanic source of this screwball idea that Paul was not a true apostle and his writings were false because those propounding it in this thread didn't seem to be ........

So I googled "******* ****, ***** *******".  Man o man, you wouldn't believe the religious nuts behind that concept!

Some of the phrasings and ideas used by the false teachers on the other websites were also used by those pushing the ideas in this thread.

I had never before heard of anyone questioning Paul and his writings as scriptural.  But I guess you can find any nutty idea on the internet.  The false teachers on the internet seem to be sacred names and Old Testament oriented and Calvinists who do not like Paul's emphasis on universal salvation.

I feel the need to take a shower.  Every form of foul idea can be found and justified on the internet.

John from Kentucky, I could not agree more.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 07, 2012, 03:50:10 AM
I know I said I would leave this thread alone but I just wanted to agree with John and Rene.

I really feel that believing Paul is a heretic, is blasphemy.

Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 07, 2012, 12:24:35 PM
I know that there are a lot of -isms that don't regard Paul.  He gets it from every direction.  Many times these -isms are easy to spot.  There are also 'believers' in the whole scripture who do not regard Paul except by lip-service.  That's been the story of my babylonian-captivity.   

Paul's writings are right there with every believer from the new-born babe to the maturing.  I'm not very 'mature' but as a maturing believer, I'm confident that they will continue to be there.  The Gospel of the Kingdom is true.

I'm aware that this thread pushes the envelope of what is the purpose of the forum.  If I've been wrong to leave it open, then I've been wrong and will learn from it.  I hoped in the beginning that the replies from our members would be helpful for each other and for those reading, including any here that might be 'on the fence' or 'almost persuaded'.  I've not been disappointed.  If we're finished, there's no reason to leave it open.
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Revilonivek on April 07, 2012, 01:27:10 PM
you say this is blasphemy to question Paul. It is the same mindset for those who call it blasphemy to question the Catholic POPE or those who hold high positions in church. It is the very thing that got us kicked out of church. Always Question, Always be through- Always ask hard questions. Always. It led you here to bible truths, didn't it? 

It is not the end of the road, so you know that. We are always learning.. Truths are always revealing.. It is beautiful as we grow more and more.

Of course scriptures teach we are to question always, test always... It is already clear that people here are uncomfortable questioning Paul.  I understand that completely. For me.. something just doesn't' seem right. call it a gut feeling. Something tells me to look closer.  Of course There are websites everywhere that talks crazy things about Paul... they are not even concise at all. It's crazy talk. There are also crazy talk about Jesus or God, and whatever.. It is the nuggets in a field that you find.. you have to dig., You have to learn,, you have to study, you have to search.. There will be always crazy talk everywhere. There's bound to be nuggets that make sense.

Remember the scriptures when Paul was first  converted and wanted to join the apostles and the Apostles didn't trust him either??? It is much later, maybe years that Peter says its okay to trust him. It is the same with us.. Imagine someone who killed your families, best friends, disciples, and so on, suddenly say he was converted. Of course you would be apprehensive at first. It's a matter of time and knowing Paul. I don't do it by blind acceptance. I look. You learn best this way... not by blind acceptance. I have to know Paul first. It is the same way as knowing Jesus and God. We search.

If its easy for you to accept Paul just because Peter clearly sees Paul as a brother. Then so be it. its for you. I just don't understand why Aninas-a man of God and who in the scriptures say is also zealous of the law healed Paul when he was blind, Why James confronted Paul and it seems like James were zealous of the Law as well and with other elders. Why did the Jews Christians in Asia who was apparently with James accuse Paul of teaching lawlessness? Why didn't they buy his story?  It is the little things. I jave to search for myself.

Denise







Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 07, 2012, 01:43:22 PM
While you're searching, search here.  I don't think you'll find any crazy talk.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 07, 2012, 03:48:42 PM
you say this is blasphemy to question Paul. It is the same mindset for those who call it blasphemy to question the Catholic POPE or those who hold high positions in church. It is the very thing that got us kicked out of church. Always Question, Always be through- Always ask hard questions. Always. It led you here to bible truths, didn't it? 

It is not the end of the road, so you know that. We are always learning.. Truths are always revealing.. It is beautiful as we grow more and more.

Of course scriptures teach we are to question always, test always... It is already clear that people here are uncomfortable questioning Paul.  I understand that completely. For me.. something just doesn't' seem right. call it a gut feeling. Something tells me to look closer.  Of course There are websites everywhere that talks crazy things about Paul... they are not even concise at all. It's crazy talk. There are also crazy talk about Jesus or God, and whatever.. It is the nuggets in a field that you find.. you have to dig., You have to learn,, you have to study, you have to search.. There will be always crazy talk everywhere. There's bound to be nuggets that make sense.

Remember the scriptures when Paul was first  converted and wanted to join the apostles and the Apostles didn't trust him either??? It is much later, maybe years that Peter says its okay to trust him. It is the same with us.. Imagine someone who killed your families, best friends, disciples, and so on, suddenly say he was converted. Of course you would be apprehensive at first. It's a matter of time and knowing Paul. I don't do it by blind acceptance. I look. You learn best this way... not by blind acceptance. I have to know Paul first. It is the same way as knowing Jesus and God. We search.

If its easy for you to accept Paul just because Peter clearly sees Paul as a brother. Then so be it. its for you. I just don't understand why Aninas-a man of God and who in the scriptures say is also zealous of the law healed Paul when he was blind, Why James confronted Paul and it seems like James were zealous of the Law as well and with other elders. Why did the Jews Christians in Asia who was apparently with James accuse Paul of teaching lawlessness? Why didn't they buy his story?  It is the little things. I jave to search for myself.

Denise

Wait a minute here Denise. You are seriously confused. There is a huge difference between questioning the pope and questioning paul. Paul is called by the other apostles, "Beloved brother" and a man "FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT." The apostles NEVER call the pope that. The apostle paul also has scripture that is INSPIRED BY GOD and FOUND in GOD'S WORD. The pope has NO SCRIPTURES that are canonized in the Word of God.

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

Luke even says God did special miracles by the hands of paul:

Acts 19:11 "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:"

People here are unconformable questioning paul because THERE IS NO GOOD REASON. You won't even accept the words of the apostles as good authority not to question him. Not just peters BUT LUKES ALSO! Luke is the one who wrote that paul was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. These words are INSPIRED BY GOD. You have already decided in your mind that paul is a heretic, you have twisted the word to your own destruction. You would rather believe that damnable heresy than believe what the very words of God tell you, what the APOSTLES WHO KNEW PAUL WROTE OF HIM!

There is nothing wrong in questioning Denise, but notice we did not say questioning is the issue. We said BELIEVING that paul is a heretic is the issue. You've decided in your mind, regardless of what is said by those of authority (Peter, Luke, THE WORD OF GOD) that you would rather interpret individual verses in such a way as to pit them against what the apostles have said and thereby creating a contradiction and blasphemous doctrine.

You can be alone in that and I will not stand idly by why you say it's no different than questioning the pope. That is a LIE there is a HUGE difference and I just layed it out for you.

Anyone who believes paul is a heretic is completely lost on this matter refusing to believe the scriptures. Treading places I will not go.

I'm responding because I can't allow your post to cause doubt in the minds of those who are young thereby causing them confusion and being mislead. There is ample reason, scriptural proof, to NEVER consider paul anything less than a BELOVED BROTHER FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRIT, you have nothing but your own interpretations on what paul ment when he spoke, that creates doubt in your head as to pauls authenticity but we can see through plains statements in the Word of God that paul was no heretic.

God be with you,

Alex
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 07, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
Another attempt for Gene.

There is no mention in Ephesians of false teachers or prophets or 'those who say they are apostles but are not'.  The Ephesians were overcoming the world, the flesh and the devil.  Paul mentions all of these...but no mention of false preachers, apostles, prophets.  FALSE preachers, apostles and prophets are not the confusion and sin of the world, but of the CHURCH.  There is no heathen sinner out there claiming to be an Apostle or Minister of the Gospel.  As soon as he might, he's a "christian".  It's axiomatic that these are professing christians.

I don't know of another church to which Paul wrote where he did NOT write against those who came (or were to come) 'preaching'  lies, or presenting themselves as Apostles but were not, or some other spiritual match to those terms.

Begs the question.  Why wouldn't Paul warn or try to turn the believers away from false apostles in his letter to Ephesus when it was such an imporant part of his message to others?  Could it be because the Ephesians had not been seduced into recieving or believing or bearing them?  Had they tried "those saying", and found them false?  Did they refuse to bear the evil men that the Corinthians endured/enjoyed?

Why would the Spirit say 'write' in Rev. 2:2 that they had? 

"I am aware of your acts, and your toil, and your endurance, and that you can not bear evil men, and you try those saying that they themselves are apostles, and they are not, and you found them false..."

Read Ephesians to see if Paul agreed with the Spirit in Rev. 2.2. 

I hate to turn this "nice letter" into a proof text against whatever -ism is causing you to want to reject Paul.  But it sure sounds to me like the ministry of Paul WORKED in Ephesus regarding "trying those", and that he had no need to write 'hard words' to them after he left them.     
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: newgene87 on April 07, 2012, 05:30:45 PM
Thank you Dave for your kind words. Thank you so much. Cause even I've been takn out of context smh. To squash it all; I was only SHAKEY, and I came to my family/forum for guidance that's it. Wasn't expecting the assault. Thanks tho. I will continue to pray, and like the person, Jesus is still the Savior of the Word
Title: Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 08, 2012, 02:17:16 AM
Yes, Jesus is still the Savior of the world.  Praise God, the Savior actually saves.  He saves us from sin, from error, from babylon, from blasphemy and heresy, from every lying spirit that seeks to divert us from the truth, and from every other evil.  Each in his own turn.

It may seem to you like those who 'believe Paul' are the 'many'.  I don't for a minute believe that's true.  "Many" don't because they don't see/understand.  "Many" don't because they leave out, ignore, or 'preach' away what he says about the salvation of all.  And "many" don't because they don't obey. 

Jesus saved Paul.  Jesus made him an Apostle.  Jesus inspired his life, sufferings, and his writings.

Hang in there.