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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: AK4 on March 08, 2016, 01:57:13 AM
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Who else has pondered on this? That there will be a generation of people who will never die. I mean deep thought in truth about that.
In Jesus
Anthony
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Hi Anthony, well yes there will be a last generation of this age that traverse over into the next age. It is appointed for men to die once" (Heb 9:27) speaks of the physical death that has been happening from the very first man that lived until now. The only exception would be those few Christ or the Apostles raised from the dead, that then had to die a second physical death. But it is the course of the age to live and experience good and evil and then to die... that will all change in the next age.
Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying...
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Anthony,
Hi Kat, Is it maybe those spoken that will not see death are of the elect...
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Even though I was baptize into his death ( thats my first death ) and if he came tomorrow and I was still alive I would not see death...
And yes Anthony I have thought on it a lot.
R.P. J
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It seems reasonable to me when Christ returns that will usher in the new age or the next age and that those who are alive will simply go from one age to the next age.
My question would be are these people now learning righteousness at that time before death ?
Or when Christ returns does everyone die except those who have been resurrected and the elect that have been change and all others are now at the white throne judgement ?
God bless.
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Anthony I would also like to point out that scripture does not say a generation of people!
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
They shall all die...
Job 14:5 (KJV)
5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Psalms 89:48 (KJV)
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Seals.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Romans 5:12 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ecclesiastes 3:20 (KJV)
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die
It clearly say all will die and return to the dust. But the scripture you mentioned is for the few who were baptized into His death ( thats your first death ) and now comes judgement...
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
What Kat is saying I don't think has to do with this scripture.
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There are many Scripture that speaks of what happens in this age and it is certain that nobody will escape death, which Michael shows many Scripture that says so. Paul says that the few elect will be "changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1Cor 15:51, 52). Yes this is only the elect that will be "changed" and have glorious spiritual bodies and go to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Thess 4:17).
But when it comes to all the people that will be living on earth when the next age heralds in, we do not see Scripture that speaks of anything happening to them. Here is a passage in Revelation that speaks directly to the beginning of the next age, the elect are already resurrected "new Jerusalem" descending to earth with Christ announces to the people on earth that He is returning to live with them on earth. That passage says "there shall be no more death" and nothing of all the unconverted people being killed or dying, nor does any other Scripture I know of.
Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
v. 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Now there are certainly Scripture that speaks of destruction and desolation when Christ returns, but we know that is spiritual/second death in the Lake of fire judgment that destroys carnality. That is the great white throne judgment which begins as soon as Christ returns.
Isa 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
v. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt,
v. 8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
v. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ---------------
[2] Matt. 10:28 & Luke 12:5
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna].
"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [Gehenna]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
Luke's account is the same as Matthew's, however, it is a shorter version. From Matthew we learn that God is "able to destroy" our very soul in Gehenna. But that is not a wicked thing, but a good thing. It is a good thing to loose (apollumi-destroy) our carnal soul for God's sake, and this destruction of the soul for God takes place in Gehenne. See Matt. 10:39 losing (destroying, "mortifying the deeds of the body" Rom. 8:13) takes place in spiritual Gehenna, Verse 28.
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And what is the solution to bridling the tongue (which speaks for and in behalf of the deceitful "heart")? Why to "fight fire with fire." Set the tongue on fire with Gehenna fire-Gehenna JUDGMENT! (Verse 6). Right there is the solution to the whole enigma of what is Gehenna fire; what is eonian [falsely called everlasting] fire; and what is the LAKE of fire.
Gehenna fire is first and foremost for Christ's disciples (the Elect), and is first taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount to His disciples. It is therefore not literal fire, nor is it everlasting fire. "Gehenna fire" (Matt. 18:9 is also called "eonian [NOT 'everlasting'] fire" in Matt. 18:8, and also in Matt. 25:41 where this eonian fire prepared for the devil and his ministers will be judged in the resurrection to Judgment in "The Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15 & 21:08). The Gehenna fire, eonian fire, lake of fire, are all the Judgment of God. These fires are all the same ONE fire that come from the same ONE God, and "Our [One] God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
And so Gehenna fire has nothing to do with eternal torture, but rather with eonian chastisement and Judgment-for the House of God's elect, now, and for those who obey not the Gospel of God, in the Judgment of Gehenna/lake of fire, later.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
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Hi Jeff
Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
I Think for the elect it will only be in this life which is pretty short...
Zechariah 13:8-9 (KJV)
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Matthew 24:22 (KJV)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Righteousness, Peace, and Joy
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Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
Hi Jeff,
I am fully convince no man need know everything about God excerpt one thing God is good and our carnal minds must be destroyed, and who wouldn't want that ? I can't wait to think like God be like God and I don't care how much I suffer to get there.
As you say sixsth seventy years of torture, if that's what it takes I'll do it in a heart beat just so I don't have to be me anymore.
God bless all.
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Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
Jeff, if you are speaking of the judgment on the world in the next age, it is clear that God is a just and fair and will chasten everybody individually according to how they lived. If a person has good works they will even be rewarded.
1Cor 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
So it's not just going to be eon of horrors at all... if you think about it all of the patriarchs and prophets will be raised physical in the next age, even John the Baptist. They have already proven their faith and obedience in God and certainly will not be tormented in judgment, they just need to know the gospel message of Christ Jesus. And there will be lots of babies and children resurrected in the next age as well, they certainly will not need harsh correction either... but the opposite extreme is there will be those that are reprobates that will only understand a very strong arm of correction. All "will learn righteousness" (Isa 26:9), it will just require a great variance of how God will bring that about.
Here is a place Ray had spoke on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ----------------
"The Judgment of God" are scary words for most people. Partly this is due to the Church portraying Judgment as a horrible and fearful thing involving sentencing many to an eternity of insane torture by fire. We will now take a Scriptural look at the doctrine of Gehenna Fire Judgment.
God is presented as the Great Judge over His creation from early Scripture. The first time the word "judge" is found in Scripture:
"...shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" (Gen. 18:25).
Actually this phrase is: "shall not the Judge of all the earth do justice."
"Justice" is translated from the Hebrew mishpat and it means according to Dr. Strong: 'a verdict-favorable or unfavorable.' And our dictionaries add to this: "a quality of being just; fairness." So "justice" is "just and fair" (interestingly John Hagee teaches that an eternity of torture in a literal hell of literal fire is "JUSTICE," and Dr. James Kennedy teaches that hell is "FAIR").
NO, an eternity of torture in fire is not "justice," nor is it "fair," as these two great pillars of heresy contend.
The word "Judge" in this verse is from the Heb: shaphat and means according to Dr. Strong: "judge, to pronounce sentence-to vindicate or punish."
It is clear that they are very similar. God the Judge will, "do JUSTICE," or will "Judge justly," or as King James translates it "do right." And not surprisingly, the New Testament tells us the very same thing:
"Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).
Notice that Jesus will [1] judge, [2] the world, [3] in righteousness.
Next let's read one of my favorite verses (Isaiah 26:9):
"When Thy [1] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants [2] of the world [3] will learn righteousness."
What a marvelous spiritual match. When Jesus Judges the world in righteousness, the world will "learn righteousness."
Ironically, the first time we find the words "justice and judgment" in the Bible is in the very same verse:
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).
Here we learn that doing "justice and judgment" brings the blessings of God.
Will Jesus and God His Father do the "right" and just thing when it comes to judging this world? Certainly. In the Old Testament we read that God does not change (Mal. 3:6); God the Father does not change (James 1:17); Jesus Christ does not change (Heb. 13:08). Use your God-given minds for a moment and consider the insanity of infinite punishment for finite sins, and the same punishment for both gross and minor sins.
"But the fearful [Gk: timid], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:08).
Does anyone in their right mind believe that murderers and timid people should be sentenced to the same "eternity of punishment?" Why even most heathen governments match the punishment to fit the nature and degree of a crime. But most Christian theology does not have even the good sense of some pagans.
Even when "many stripes" were administered (even among wicked men), they were to be limited to 40 lashes: Deut. 25:3; Lk 12:47; Acts 16;23; II Cor. 11:24.
To "judge" means to set right, whether it is in chastening or sentencing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"-that is to judge justly so as to bring about change.
"When Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [everyone] will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).
When the wicked are left to their own devices, they will NOT learn righteousness, but when God's just judgments are added to the mix, and Jesus judges in righteousness, they cannot but "learn righteousness." Why won't the Church teach these marvelous truths? Well, of course it can't, seeing it is deceived.
God's judgments and the knowledge of His plan and purpose for humanity has reached precious few in the past, but it is prophesied to cover the earth:
"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9).
And:
"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Habakkuk 2:14).
It is an easy thing to turn men (and women) into beasts and heartless criminals. Torturing them or annihilating them would likewise be an easy thing for God to do. But turning vile and demented criminals like Hitler, Saddam, or Charles Manson into godly saints, now that's an accomplishment.
Of course most Christians and theologians and pastors do not believe that God is up to a task this great. Just wait. If God can spiritually transform a criminal like the Pharisee Saul, into the loving Apostle Paul, Saddam and the boys will not challenge God's ability to convince them of their great need of repentance.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Anthony,
Hi Kat, Is it maybe those spoken that will not see death are of the elect...
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Even though I was baptize into his death ( thats my first death ) and if he came tomorrow and I was still alive I would not see death...
And yes Anthony I have thought on it a lot.
R.P. J
Yes these are definitely the elect. I think i see clues with also their immediate family but nothing concrete
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Another thought is...those who are that generation (generation as in those who are the ones who witness and prove that 1 cor 15:51 is true)...their thoughts. Oh their thoughts...
Anthony
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One of their thoughts is mentioned like they will look on the One they pierce and weep...not in sadness but joy
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Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
Hi Jeff,
I am fully convince no man need know everything about God excerpt one thing God is good and our carnal minds must be destroyed, and who wouldn't want that ? I can't wait to think like God be like God and I don't care how much I suffer to get there.
As you say sixsth seventy years of torture, if that's what it takes I'll do it in a heart beat just so I don't have to be me anymore.
God bless all.
Hi Rick,
Sometimes it's God's will that people take their own lives. If it wasn't, then that would never happen. Every human experience is relative.
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Hi Jeff,
I agree that every human experience is relevant.
God bless.
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Another thought is...those who are that generation (generation as in those who are the ones who witness and prove that 1 cor 15:51 is true)...their thoughts. Oh their thoughts...
Anthony
Oh we do have some of their thoughts Anthony, I do not think the world will be happy when Christ appears, it will not be what the Christian world expects and it appears that they will be terrified.
Luke 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
v. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And the wicked will have much to fear as none will escape His judgment.
Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.
But it is certainly not all bad...
Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Anthony, I don"t think anyones family members will receive a free ride through us!
Yes these are definitely the elect. I think i see clues with also their immediate family but nothing concrete
2 Timothy 3:9 (KJV)
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
it clearly says everyman/women
R.P and Joy...
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I don't want to argue. Much of what has been shared seems or sounds true. But I want to interject another thought or two.
The whole of creation is groaning for the unveiling of the sons of God.
I want to tie-in some of these quoted scriptures to what I hope is our shared experience. When Christ came to me (as lost a sheep as ever was one) that night I stumbled onto B-T, I was happy. I wasn't just happy for the "world", I was happy for myself. It is difficult for me to accept that the world will not be happy when He appears. They are groaning for Him, have suffered through substitutes, been lied to and caused to fear. I certainly had. There are few in the world more "reprobate" than I was. You don't want to live in a world that is worse than me.
I know that there is a 'fearful looking forward to' of judgement for those sinning willfully. But I want to contrast that with a well-earned knowledge that even the worst of us (at least in many instances) are unhappy (to say the least) with their lives. They are trapped and know no better. They are weak and can do no better. Yet they know that there IS better, and continue to believe it even when preachers have declared the failure of the One who brings light--unless you join the club. No rational, thinking, feeling adult person can bring him/herself to join the club.
People who know OF Jesus tend to admire Jesus. But they don't admire the ones who claim His name because of their hypocrisy and seriously flawed message. They look for those who are "like Him".
So here's the way I read:
...until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Pretty vivid picture. Things are bad. Real bad. And they wonder what's coming next.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When things are that bad, and they REALLY get to groaning hard for the unveiling of the sons of God, THEN shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. I don't think He BRINGS WITH HIM the things in 21:25, 26. I think He saves FROM them, as well as from all the things He mentioned in previous verses (and then some). Believers and doers will lift up their heads (salvation is especially for those who believe), though the rest may be confused for a time (as was I) until their fears are relieved. A "son of God" helped me tremendously with that, and still does. Name was Ray Smith.
Saddam and Hitler will have an easier time in Judgement than Hagee (unless he repents) and Kennedy. They will be among the ones most unhappy at His appearing when His light shines on them. But it will only be for a season.
All I can tell you is my experience, and the way I 'read', putting 2 and 2 together. I'm not pushing an eschatology.
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When things are that bad, and they REALLY get to groaning hard for the unveiling of the sons of God, THEN shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. I don't think He BRINGS WITH HIM the things in 21:25, 26. I think He saves FROM them. Believers and doers will lift up their heads (salvation is especially for those who believe), though the rest may be confused for a time (as was I) until their fears are relieved.
Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The elect will hide in their "chambers" until His wrath has passed, sort of like Noah and his family hiding in the ark.
They only need to hide for a little moment, so I am guessing the things in Luke 21:25, 26 won't take too long.
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Hi Dave, I agree totally, It will be easier for the drug addict that had a life time of pain and suffering then for the millionaire who had a lifetime of comfort, and I say that with caution because money does"t buy happiness! They All are moaning and groaning as we speak!! This scripture keeps coming to my mind...
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last:
Matthew 21:31 (KJV)
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
I am not to happy with the life I lived and like you said I don"t think there is many who done the things I have done. But knowing the truth has certainly brought comfort to me and I am sure the rest at their time it will be no different for them!
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Just thought this would go well right here ...
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psa 72:12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
Psa 72:13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
Psa 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
We are all poor, needy and wretched!!
Romans 7:24 (KJV)
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The elect will hide in their "chambers" until His wrath has passed, sort of like Noah and his family hiding in the ark.
They only need to hide for a little moment, so I am guessing the things in Luke 21:25, 26 won't take too long.
"My people" was the nation of Israel in the OT and later when Christ was on earth the Jews that crucified Him... isn't that who He is saying should hide from His coming wrath?
When Christ descends from the heavens to the earth the elect will have already been gathered.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So when Christ comes He will have His elect with Him, they will not be hiding.
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there was a white horse! Its Rider is named Faithful and True. He administers justice and wages war righteously.
v. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many royal crowns. He has a name written on Him that nobody knows except Himself.
v. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.
v. 14 The armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Matthew 21:31 (KJV)
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Yep, that's the "season", Mike.
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Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So when Christ comes He will have His elect with Him, they will not be hiding.
Unless that "event" follows Luke 21:28.
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there was a white horse! Its Rider is named Faithful and True. He administers justice and wages war righteously.
v. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many royal crowns. He has a name written on Him that nobody knows except Himself.
v. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.
v. 14 The armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.
Are these "events"? Or Spiritual truths? Does it only happen once, and only in the future? We've got to be careful with the Revelation.
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Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The elect will hide in their "chambers" until His wrath has passed, sort of like Noah and his family hiding in the ark.
They only need to hide for a little moment, so I am guessing the things in Luke 21:25, 26 won't take too long.
"My people" was the nation of Israel in the OT and later when Christ was on earth the Jews that crucified Him... isn't that who He is saying should hide from His coming wrath?
So the Jews will be able to hide and Jesus will spare them from His wrath? I thought only the elect would be spared?
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Hi Dave, yes you got me thinking on that...
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Are the elect not seeing this now? I think so!
Isaiah 12:1-3 (KJV)
12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me.
2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.
And a second witness for the rest..
Isaiah 11:10-11 (BBE)
10 And in that day, the eyes of the nations will be turned to the root of Jesse which will be lifted up as the flag of the peoples; and his resting-place will be glory.
11 And in that day the hand of the Lord will be stretched out the second time to get back the rest of his people, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the sea-lands.
And then I am sure the rest will see this
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Do we not see that now? And will they not see it then? But will they see it with this added?
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
I am I seeing you right? I think your right it is a spiritual truth...
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Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The elect will hide in their "chambers" until His wrath has passed, sort of like Noah and his family hiding in the ark.
They only need to hide for a little moment, so I am guessing the things in Luke 21:25, 26 won't take too long.
"My people" was the nation of Israel in the OT and later when Christ was on earth the Jews that crucified Him... isn't that who He is saying should hide from His coming wrath?
So the Jews will be able to hide and Jesus will spare them from His wrath? I thought only the elect would be spared?
Of course they cannot hide from Him, no more than any will. It's a figure of speak that implies the Jews should hide their face because they rejected their Savior when He was in the flesh.
Heb 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So when Christ comes He will have His elect with Him, they will not be hiding.
Unless that "event" follows Luke 21:28.
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there was a white horse! Its Rider is named Faithful and True. He administers justice and wages war righteously.
v. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many royal crowns. He has a name written on Him that nobody knows except Himself.
v. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.
v. 14 The armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.
Are these "events"? Or Spiritual truths? Does it only happen once, and only in the future? We've got to be careful with the Revelation.
Certainly these Scripture have a spiritual application as well as a literal. When you see "new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Rev 21:2). Is that just a spiritual truth or does it indicate Christ will literally return with the elect/bride to reign on earth?
He has come to the elect now in this life spiritually, but we anticipate His return and the resurrection of the rest of the elect, that I believe to be an actual event, yet future.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Mike, Ray taught very clearly in the LOF series that the "events" of the Revelation were the Spiritual Revelation of Jesus Christ, and that they are present, past, and future...because they reveal HIM, and He is, was, and will be.
I have a quite tortured relationship to 'eschatologies'. What I have found (much to my surprise) in the past 8 years is that I am living one. Now. Further, I always have been, even in ignorance. And the best is yet to come.
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Hi Dave, so then what I said was in line?
He is, was and will be in all the events I stated.
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Mike, Ray taught very clearly in the LOF series that the "events" of the Revelation were the Spiritual Revelation of Jesus Christ, and that they are present, past, and future...because they reveal HIM, and He is, was, and will be.
I have a quite tortured relationship to 'eschatologies'. What I have found (much to my surprise) in the past 8 years is that I am living one. Now. Further, I always have been, even in ignorance. And the best is yet to come.
Very True for me as well :)
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Kat, I just don't think you can state dogmatically that the elect will not be on the earth at the moment of His appearing. Even speaking "literally" (I hate that word), we have to suss out the "timeline" from several sources...no one scripture is it's own interpretation. Jesus is telling US to LOOK UP in Luke 21:28 when we see these things begin to happen, for our redemption draweth NIGH. Not YET, bu NIGH. Isn't it conceivable that, literally, we 'look up', and THEN Matthew 24:31 happens? There's no contradiction.
I think zvezda's reading of Isaiah 26:20 is in line with Scripture and with what Ray taught on the Elect escaping wrath and indignation.
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Yes Dave, I can see it as you said, that sequence does seem to fit, but there is still the elect meeting Him in the air, which does seem to happen before He puts His foot on the earth.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Now I believe this to be an physical event, because it was actually a physical event when Jesus left the earth to return to heaven... no not to live in the clouds... but ascending up was the means He used to depart.
Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
v. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
v. 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
It's hard to put all the Scripture up that apply to a subject every time you post, but I try to use the pertinent ones.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The elect will hide in their "chambers" until His wrath has passed, sort of like Noah and his family hiding in the ark.
They only need to hide for a little moment, so I am guessing the things in Luke 21:25, 26 won't take too long.
"My people" was the nation of Israel in the OT and later when Christ was on earth the Jews that crucified Him... isn't that who He is saying should hide from His coming wrath?
So the Jews will be able to hide and Jesus will spare them from His wrath? I thought only the elect would be spared?
Of course they cannot hide from Him, no more than any will. It's a figure of speak that implies the Jews should hide their face because they rejected their Savior when He was in the flesh.
I know they can't hide from Him. I don't think the verse (Isa 26:20) implies they are hiding from Him. They are just told to hide (escape) from the destruction that comes with His wrath. It's like Noah was hiding in the ark from all the destruction.
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I know they can't hide from Him. I don't think the verse (Isa 26:20) implies they are hiding from Him. They are just told to hide (escape) from the destruction that comes with His wrath. It's like Noah was hiding in the ark from all the destruction.
The elect just do not need to hide from Christ, they will be judging the world with Christ when He returns, they will be causing the 'destruction' of the carnal minds in the next age. Noah was not hiding on the ark... the Ark represents Christ and Noah was 'IN' It, as Christ is in us and we are in Him.
John 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
v. 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
John 6:56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Here is an email from Ray about the elect will judge with Christ.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4445.0.html ---------------
It just amazes me how utterly short-sighted Biblical scholars and theologians can be when they are locked into their pagan traditions. Jesus had a special REWARD/AWARD for all His followers. What was it? Heaven? NO. Eternal life? NO. All humanity will be given immortality which is in effect eternal, everlasting life.
So what is so special that only the CHOSEN FEW will receive it? It is ruling and reigning and judging with Jesus Christ! This reign is "eonian" or "age-lasting." It is decidedly NOT "eternal," as we are plainly told that it will END (I Cor. 15:25). Jesus rules only "UNTIL" He puts all enemies under His feet, at which time He hands over the reign of the Kingdom to His God and Father (Verses 27-28). All enemies will learn RIGHTEOUSNESS and ultimately be saved (Isa. 26:9, I Tim. 2:4, I Tim. 4:10, Phil. 2:9-11, Eph. 1:10, etc., etc., etc).
And so, those who do not quality to rule, reign, and judge with Christ, will themselves BE JUDGED. And judgment means to set things right. Hence "the [wicked] shall go away into everlasting [Gk: 'eonian'] punishment [Gk: 'chastisement']: but the righteous [the chosen Elect Few[ into life eternal [Gk: 'eonian' also]" (Matt. 25:46). Aionios is the adjective form of the noun aion. Aion means an "age." Aionios means that which pertains to an age. Eternus is a Latin word that surprisingly traces it etymology to the Greek word aion. Eternus never, ever meant "endless time" until hundreds of years after the Bible was completed and the Catholic Church decided that aions would be now taught to be "ENDLESS ages." As aion and aionios never meant endless, the word endless had to be affixed to aion and aionos in order to ever give it such a false and erroneous meaning.
The root of "kolasis" means "cutting off," as in pruning a tree. One prunes a tree to make it PRODUCE MORE FRUIT, not to kill it! The wicked are chastised (judged) for the period of Christ's reign and the Saints reign for the period of Christ's reign. Both periods are the same length--until their purpose has been accomplished. Simple, huh? And Scriptural as well. God will torture no one for all eternity. That is blasphemously insane!!
God be with you,
Ray
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I know they can't hide from Him. I don't think the verse (Isa 26:20) implies they are hiding from Him. They are just told to hide (escape) from the destruction that comes with His wrath. It's like Noah was hiding in the ark from all the destruction.
The elect just do not need to hide from Christ, they will be judging the world with Christ when He returns, they will be causing the 'destruction' of the carnal minds in the next age. Noah was not hiding on the ark... the Ark represents Christ and Noah was 'IN' It, as Christ is in us and we are in Him.
Of course the elect don't need to hide from Christ, like I said in my last post, they are not really hiding from Christ, they are just told to escape from His wrath and wait a little moment, then the wrath will pass and they will start judging the world with Christ.
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When the day of the Lord's wrath comes, it will not last a little moment, that is the great white throne judgment of the world that last for an age, "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet" (1Cor 15:25). However there are those who want to hide from Him though...
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
v. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
v. 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
v. 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
I just cannot accept the idea that the elect will escape/hide from the Lord's wrath, as they that will sit on the throne with Christ to judge the world.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Such a good discussion. I hope I don't take it to the weeds. ;D
My question is , the elect meet Christ in the air - both those alive at the time He comes and those who are resurrected from the dead who are HIs. Then everyone else who has ever died is resurrected for the great white throne judgement. Now, I'm thinking physically and not spiritually but does everyone now live on the earth? Or does this take place somewhere else? What do all these people do? Where do they live? How does that work? I know- I think in simple terms. Do we have any idea?
I thought that the New Jerusalem would be after the judgement was over- so, I can't wrap my head around all this. Do you have an understanding of this?
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When the day of the Lord's wrath comes, it will not last a little moment, that is the great white throne judgment of the world that last for an age, "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet" (1Cor 15:25). However there are those who want to hide from Him though...
Okay, I see where the confusion is. It seems that you think the Lord's wrath is the same thing as the judgement day.
I just think they are two events -
1) the Lord's wrath will come first, he will send punishment on the people of the earth, it will bring destruction
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
2) After the wrath/indignation has passed, then the judgement begins, the people of the world will learn righteousness.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
judgement = correction, not punishment, that's why I think Lord's wrath and judgement are not the same thing.
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zvezda, the day of the Lord is the great day of His wrath has come that I just showed you in Rev 6:17 and that is the judgment.
Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Job 19:29 Be afraid of the sword for yourselves; For wrath brings the punishment of the sword, That you may know there is a judgment."
Such a good discussion. I hope I don't take it to the weeds. ;D
My question is , the elect meet Christ in the air - both those alive at the time He comes and those who are resurrected from the dead who are HIs. Then everyone else who has ever died is resurrected for the great white throne judgement. Now, I'm thinking physically and not spiritually but does everyone now live on the earth? Or does this take place somewhere else? What do all these people do? Where do they live? How does that work? I know- I think in simple terms. Do we have any idea?
I thought that the New Jerusalem would be after the judgement was over- so, I can't wrap my head around all this. Do you have an understanding of this?
These questions always come up... it's an curious topic for sure. We do know there is the first resurrection of the elect, then the rest of the dead after that, "in his own order" (1 Cor 15:23). What does that mean? Will there be stages of resurrection? It does not specify, but that comment makes you wonder.
But however it comes about I have confidence that God has considered every detail and I'm sure His plan is prepared to take care of every need. Revelation 21 says there will be a "new earth" and in chapter 22 it says v. 3 "there shall be no more curse"... does that mean those from Genesis? Maybe He will change things so the earth will be a more accommodating place to live, nature can be quite hostile now. But Scripture says the reign of Christ in next age will take place on earth.
Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
Luke 11:2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
New Jerusalem - is "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband," (Rev 21:2), it is the temple of God, and that is made up of the elect.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
I've already given Scripture that show the elect rule with Christ on His throne (Rev 3:21), not literal physical huge throne sitting on earth somewhere, but it mean they will be given power and authority under Christ.
1Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?
These are the Scripture I see on these things, that's what I go on.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1Th_1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Zvezda seems to be linking Isaiah's prophecy to Paul's words. I agree.
So then the elect are saved from the wrath to come. Are they involved in it? It is HIS wrath, and only He knows how to do it. We are saved from it.
Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Several times we are told not to have or exercise wrath. Do the rules change? What I find hard to believe is that He is going to require the elect to do something for which they have no practice, or are out of practice. And we had best be "out of practice".
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these...wrath, ...and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Let HIM do the work He knows how to do, and that He claims for Himself.
Where are the elect in this "timeline"? Maybe here?
Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
And afterwards?
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
That, we may be qualified to do.
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John 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
And how are the elect to do the works that Christ does, without practice?
1John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is IN you is greater than he who is in the world.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
When we are joined with Christ at resurrection, one with God - sons of God, then it will be the Father's work that we will also do through Christ. No practice needed God will do it in us just as He does in Christ.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
v. 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
v. 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
v. 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
v. 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
John 17:11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
BTW - Ray spoke in much detail in the Secret Rapture paper about how the elect meet Christ in the air and they return to earth with Him http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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When we are joined with Christ at resurrection, one with God - sons of God, then it will be the Father's work that we will also do through Christ. No practice needed God will do it in us just as He does in Christ.
I agree God will do it in us but disagree no practice needed. Judgment begins in the house of God, the elect have been practicing all their lives, they learn and practice righteousness in this age.
I think our root disagreement is that Kat thinks God's wrath and Judgement are the same thing, so when the elect judge the world with Christ, it also means they join in His wrath; while Dave and I think the elect will be saved from the wrath and only need to involve in the judgement.
Kat, the verses (Rev 6:17, Rom 2:5, Job 19:29) you showed in your previous posts are too weak to prove that God's wrath and judgement are the same thing. When analyzing a statement, it helps if we simplify it first -
Rom 2:5 simply says "you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of A and B" - it doesn't necessarily mean A and B are the same day.
Job 19:29 simply says "for wrath brings X, so you know there is a Y" - it doesn't necessarily mean X and Y are the same thing.
Rev 6:17 mentions the day of His wrath only.
You also underlined Rev 6:16 (hide us from the face of His...), I don't think it implies the same thing as Isaiah 26:20.
In Isaiah 26:20, it's the Lord that commands His people to hide; while in Rev 16, it's the kings, rich men, etc that ask the mountains to help them hide.
Lord's command Vs men's request - Big difference.
Didn't Ray always say judgement is correction, not punishment?
His wrath sends punishment and His judgment sends correction. When the elect are going through judgment in their life time, do they think they are going through God's wrath/punishment too?
I guess until there are two witnesses clearly say His wrath/punishment and Judgement are the same thing, we will just agree to disagree.
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I agree God will do it in us but disagree no practice needed. Judgment begins in the house of God, the elect have been practicing all their lives, they learn and practice righteousness in this age.
Hi zvezda, yes that is true, we are putting into action obedience to God now, so it is practice for later.
I don't know why you think that the 3 Scripture that puts wrath and judgment together is too weak? Wrath is just a severe form of punishment/correction, needed for those resurrected with a reprobate/diabolical mind, which should be plenty. But there will also be many (and not the elect in the first resurrection) in the resurrection of the dead that will not receive wrath - harsh correction... I've mentioned them before babies and little children, the prophets and patriarchs including John the Baptist that was very dear to Jesus. But anyway I will just bring this I found from Ray.
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html -----------------------
We learned that "...when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).
Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:
"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).
Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!
"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!
"Grace" is not a stagnant feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer.
"Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God’s very image.
The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God EVER ASKS OF US -- EVERYTHING. "Living GODLY" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.
When God uses the SAME WORD to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, it behooves us to study deeply what that word means, especially when that word has to do with the very destiny of all peoples who have ever lived.
The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
It is high time we dispense with the hypocrisy.
When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?
If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvelous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible! You would do well to not read any further until you thoroughly grasp what has been presented here.
And again I ask, "What does this have to do with the lake of fire?" EVERYTHING! I am not going to go into detail on this aspect of judging yet, but suffice it to be said here that the "judging" (Greek: krino in I Cor. 11:32 by chastening that brings godly living and salvation is also the very same "judging" (Greek: krino) used in Revelation 20:12 with reference to the lake of fire.
Seriously, do many believe that these God-inspired Greek words have one meaning when applied to God judging and gracing believers now, but then have a totally different meaning when applied to as yet non-believers in the day of judging? Do you? Well, regrettably, many do think that God is fickle, inconsistent, and a respecter of persons. Can you for once in your life begin to use your God-given mind to think for yourself?
This is an absolutely marvelous teaching. God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:
"Teaching us..." King James
"Instructing us..." American Standard Version
"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)
"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)
"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)
Now it is true that the Greek word paideuo #3811 can also mean "punishment." But punishment is not the main force of this word. Notice that none of the above translations (nor any that I know of) translate this word, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, PUNISHING us that denying ungodliness ..." No, the force of this word is to DISCIPLINE, TRAIN, INSTRUCT, SCHOOL AND TEACH.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I don't know why you think that the 3 Scripture that says that put wrath and judgment together is too weak?
I have simplified the 3 scriptures, you just need to substitute those A/B/X/Y with whatever you like to help you understand the logic behind and why it's weak. I will give some examples -
you are storing up food for your family in the day of tornado and earthquake - it doesn't necessarily mean tornado and earthquake will happen on the same day.
for seat belt brings safety, so you know there is a law. - obviously seat belt safety and law are not the same thing, it's just cause and effect, cause always happens before effect.
But there will also be many (and not the elect in the first resurrection) in the resurrection of the dead that will not receive wrath - harsh correction. I've mentioned them before babies and little children, the prophets and patriarchs including John the Baptist that was very dear to Jesus.
True. I guess we need to go back to what Dave suggested about the timeline:
Where are the elect in this "timeline"? Maybe here?
Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
All these things will not happen at the same time, right?
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
If you agree with this timeline, then it's obviously that His wrath won't happen at the same time as judgement.
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Here are a few scriptures to consider;
John11:24-Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25-Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26-And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believeth thou this?
Colossians 3:1-If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2-Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3-For ye are dead, and your life is hide with Christ in God.
4-When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Joel
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Where are the elect in this "timeline"? Maybe here?
Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
All these things will not happen at the same time, right?
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
If you agree with this timeline, then it's obviously that His wrath won't happen at the same time as judgement.
The timeline that we have in the Scripture is this.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (spurious). This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is the first resurrection of the elect and then the great white throne with the dead small and great raised to be judged... we do not know what order there might be for them.
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
This comment just does not make sense to me, His wrath being before the resurrection of the dead? What about the Pharisees? Look we are just going in circles with this, let's just leave it at this, unless you find Scripture that makes your point.
p.s. Thanks Joel.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This comment just does not make sense to me, His wrath being before the resurrection of the dead? What about the Pharisees? Look we are just going in circles with this, let's just leave it at this, unless you find Scripture that makes your point.
I already given you the scripture, that's Rev 11:18. It lists out each event one by one.
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Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
I do not see this as a sequence of events, one after the other, if it were there would at least be 'and then,' but the "and" just shows the different things that are to happen at that time.
Anyway as you have said, we will just agree to disagree on this for now.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I just want to point out for the readers that nowhere in the last quote from Ray does he mention "wrath". Elsewhere he drew a distinct line of separation between WRATH/INDIGNATION and REBUKE/CHASTENING. Let's not be guilty of equating the two.
I certainly agree that Chastening can be light to severe. But I don't think that Ray taught that "severe chastening"=wrath. Instead, he went to great pains to disassociate the two. I may be wrong about that, but I'll have to be shown.
I'm reminded of Ray's "parable" about the young African girl in one of the letters to Hagee or Kennedy that started this website. Her "correction", Ray intimated, will be light. Part of her correction will be the presentation of the truth of the Love of God, and His wisdom in all His working. Ray may not have said that in that way then, but I do believe it, and that he did too.
To me, "escaping wrath" or "being saved from wrath" applies to the elect. What is it about "the chosen" that "entitles" them to salvation from "Wrath"? Because they have come out of Her. That's the way to escape--not judgement, not correction, not chastening--not even scourging--but wrath. Isn't "wrath" reserved for the Great Whore, the Kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on "the wine of her fornication"? That's been my understanding for eight years. Again, if that is not what Ray taught, I'll have to be shown. That's not the world at large. That's the "many called" from which we have been drawn. Even here, "wrath" may be light, moderate or heavy in the way it is experienced. Regardless, my enemies are not flesh and blood. I don't think the rules will change then either.
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Just so Kat doesn't think she's typing to a brick wall, I have seen one thing more clearly in the study that sprung out of this discussion. I no longer think the "world" will be universally and immediately "happy" to see His coming in Glory. That may well be reserved for those who believe and do. They may well be "angry", but soon enough their anger will turn towards the Great Whore.
Surely they will be "happy" eventually. I guess I'll have to live a little longer to understand this.
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Yes Dave,
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth
Matthew 22:13 (KJV)
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 13:28 (KJV)
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
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Dave, the brunt this conversation has been about God's wrath in the next age, it has always been my opinion that the first resurrection was immediately upon Christ's return. So I never even thought that the elect would be under God's wrath for a minute, because their entering the kingdom means their judgment is finished and they are perfected. That was the distinguishing factor to me, the first resurrection, and I assumed that was understood - the elect being with Christ eliminated them from wrath, so I neglected to explain that in my posts.
There are a number of Scripture that indicate that God's wrath will be on the "wicked," from either the church or the world. If it speaks of His wrath in the OT, than I would think it could not be speaking of Babylon.
Job 21:30 For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.
Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
Rom 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
v. 9 tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Pro 11:20 Those of crooked heart are an abomination to the LORD, but those of blameless ways are His delight.
v. 21 Be assured, an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered.
v. 22 Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a beautiful woman without discretion.
v. 23 The desire of the righteous ends only in good; the expectation of the wicked in wrath.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at Your right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
Anyway I'm not just trying to win an argument here, as I've studied these Scripture how can I deny what they say?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I just want to point out for the readers that nowhere in the last quote from Ray does he mention "wrath". Elsewhere he drew a distinct line of separation between WRATH/INDIGNATION and REBUKE/CHASTENING. Let's not be guilty of equating the two.
I certainly agree that Chastening can be light to severe. But I don't think that Ray taught that "severe chastening"=wrath. Instead, he went to great pains to disassociate the two. I may be wrong about that, but I'll have to be shown.
Alright. No need to look it up, I found it myself. So here's repentance #37 or 69 or whatever. Ray taught that the 'difference' between chastening/correction and indignation/wrath is the both the manner in which God delivers them AND the attitude of those receiving them. Now, this makes perfect sense in explaining why the chosen of God are not appointed unto wrath.
To me, "escaping wrath" or "being saved from wrath" applies to the elect. What is it about "the chosen" that "entitles" them to salvation from "Wrath"? Because they have come out of Her. That's the way to escape--not judgement, not correction, not chastening--not even scourging--but wrath. Isn't "wrath" reserved for the Great Whore, the Kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on "the wine of her fornication"? That's been my understanding for eight years. Again, if that is not what Ray taught, I'll have to be shown. That's not the world at large. That's the "many called" from which we have been drawn. Even here, "wrath" may be light, moderate or heavy in the way it is experienced. Regardless, my enemies are not flesh and blood. I don't think the rules will change then either.
True enough that being saved from wrath applies to the elect. But not true that "wrath/indignation" is reserved exclusively for the Great Whore, the kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on the wine of her fornication. So there's repentance # God-only-knows.
God only knows how many are left.
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Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
Jeff, if you are speaking of the judgment on the world in the next age, it is clear that God is a just and fair and will chasten everybody individually according to how they lived. If a person has good works they will even be rewarded.
1Cor 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
So it's not just going to be eon of horrors at all... if you think about it all of the patriarchs and prophets will be raised physical in the next age, even John the Baptist. They have already proven their faith and obedience in God and certainly will not be tormented in judgment, they just need to know the gospel message of Christ Jesus. And there will be lots of babies and children resurrected in the next age as well, they certainly will not need harsh correction either... but the opposite extreme is there will be those that are reprobates that will only understand a very strong arm of correction. All "will learn righteousness" (Isa 26:9), it will just require a great variance of how God will bring that ."
"Justice" is translated from the Hebrew mishpat and it means according to Dr. Strong: 'a verdict-favorable or unfavorable.' And our dictionaries add to this: "a quality of being just; fairness." So "justice" is "just and fair" (interestingly John Hagee teaches that an eternity of torture in a literal hell of literal fire is "JUSTICE," and Dr. James Kennedy teaches that hell is "FAIR").
NO, an eternity of torture in fire is not "justice," nor is it "fair," as these two great pillars of heresy contend.
The word "Judge" in this verse is from the Heb: shaphat and means according to Dr. Strong: "judge, to pronounce sentence-to vindicate or punish."
It is clear that they are very similar. God the Judge will, "do JUSTICE," or will "Judge justly," or as King James translates it "do right." And not surprisingly, the New Testament tells us the very same thing:
"Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).
Notice that Jesus will [1] judge, [2] the world, [3] in righteousness.
Next let's read one of my favorite verses (Isaiah 26:9):
"When Thy [1] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants [2] of the world [3] will learn righteousness."
What a marvelous spiritual match. When Jesus Judges the world in righteousness, the world will "learn righteousness."
Ironically, the first time we find the words "justice and judgment" in the Bible is in the very same verse:
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).
Here we learn that doing "justice and judgment" brings the blessings of God.
Will Jesus and God His Father do the "right" and just thing when it comes to judging this world? Certainly. In the Old Testament we read that God does not change (Mal. 3:6); God the Father does not change (James 1:17); Jesus Christ does not change (Heb. 13:08). Use your God-given minds for a moment and consider the insanity of infinite punishment for finite sins, and the same punishment for both gross and minor sins.
"But the fearful [Gk: timid], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:08).
Does anyone in their right mind believe that murderers and timid people should be sentenced to the same "eternity of punishment?" Why even most heathen governments match the punishment to fit the nature and degree of a crime. But most Christian theology does not have even the good sense of some pagans.
Even when "many stripes" were administered (even among wicked men), they were to be limited to 40 lashes: Deut. 25:3; Lk 12:47; Acts 16;23; II Cor. 11:24.
To "judge" means to set right, whether it is in chastening or sentencing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"-that is to judge justly so as to bring about change.
"When Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [everyone] will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thank you Kat. :). In spite of the knowledge Ive been given, I still struggle with doubts and fear. Not fear that God is not just, or true, or faithful, and never-changing, it's something in me. It's easy enough to remind myself of the Truth, but I think it's just part of who I am. I know that God will change me when He does.
I tried to edit to reduce the quoting but tablets are mostly useless.
Jeff
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Dave, the brunt this conversation has been about God's wrath in the next age, it has always been my opinion that the first resurrection was immediately upon Christ's return. So I never even thought that the elect would be under God's wrath for a minute, because their entering the kingdom means their judgment is finished and they are perfected. That was the distinguishing factor to me, the first resurrection, and I assumed that was understood - the elect being with Christ eliminated them from wrath, so I neglected to explain that in my posts
One thing I don't quite understand about this is that at the time of Christs return, at that moment, everyone is still evil - sinners. Is that where
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
changes the elect?
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One thing I don't quite understand about this is that at the time of Christs return, at that moment, everyone is still evil - sinners. Is that where
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
changes the elect?
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
v. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
v. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
v. 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."
Hi Jeff, in this passage you can see in verse 35 Paul is talking about "How are the dead raised up," that would be the elect in the first resurrection, because he is speaking to the "brethren." But that happens at the very end of this age, so yes this world is still as wicked as ever.
The dead elect will be raised up out of their graves first and then the physically living elect "shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." This old carnal flesh and blood body will become a glorious spiritual body and rise up to join their brethren as they all will "meet the Lord in the air."
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
This is their glorious union with Christ, to be one with God - entering the kingdom, and I believe the beginning of the next age. For them "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi folks,
One thing that I am sure was already covered, but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns. What ever we become will be a distinct and obvious miracle.
When we who have been acquainted on this forum see and communicate with one another shortly after the change is effected in us, we will readily see that it is a miracle of God because of the great and miraculous change in us that makes us seem almost totally different people. The improvement if we can think of it that way will be
99.999 % from what we were the second before our change.
This life is not about becoming better or about letting God do His work in us. God shall do his perfecting work 100% Himself through His son the Lord Jesus. We won't even recognize ourselves after our change is come. We shall be like our elder brother the Lord Jesus, because we shall see him as he is.
Indiana Bob
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Hi Kat, are the elect really risen? In Rays paper on the rapture he says its the wicked that are removed.
RAPTURE OF THE WICKED
Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"
"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).
Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!
And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."
For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won’t repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares
"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).
And
"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).
So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.
Notice Romans 8:33, "... God’s elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn’t have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."
Didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?
One more,
"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).
Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!
And then he give scripture that shows the elect will remain,
Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God’s intention that the righteous remain on this earth:
"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).
"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).
"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).
"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).
"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).
And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).
Then in this audio, its seems he say that the elect are taken out,
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3 (http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3)
So is it that the elect remain and then the wicked are cast in to them that are apart of the lake of fire? I heard your voice in the audio so maybe you can clear it up for me? Thanks Kat
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3
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Hi Bob, your quote
but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns.
John 5:24 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:39-40 (KJV)
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 8:34-39 (KJV)
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Revelation 2:17 (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:1 (KJV)
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 5:1 (KJV)
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Romans 8:14-15 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6 (KJV)
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD...
Sorry Bob but I don't agree with that statement, thats just a few scriptures out of hundreds that say no to your statement.
R P J
Michael
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Hi Kat, are the elect really risen? In Rays paper on the rapture he says its the wicked that are removed.
RAPTURE OF THE WICKED
Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"
"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).
Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!
And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."
For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won’t repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares
"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).
And
"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).
So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.
Notice Romans 8:33, "... God’s elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn’t have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."
Didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?
One more,
"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).
Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!
And then he give scripture that shows the elect will remain,
Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God’s intention that the righteous remain on this earth:
"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).
"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).
"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).
"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).
"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).
And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).
Then in this audio, its seems he say that the elect are taken out,
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3 (http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3)
So is it that the elect remain and then the wicked are cast in to them that are apart of the lake of fire? I heard your voice in the audio so maybe you can clear it up for me? Thanks Kat
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3
Hi Michael, Ray was emphasizing in that article that the elect are not going to be whisked off to heaven, as the church teaches. What you presented from his article is what he believed would happen to the wicked. But he did mention the elect meeting Christ in the air and returning to earth with Him.
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm -------------------
Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Michael,
Thanks for the reply. Much appreciated.
I note that the quotes that you supplied are all future tense. In other words we have the sure and certain promise of God and If we are the elect then God will bring our change to pass, absolutely certain.
However, we should not expect to measure up to what we will be while we are still mortal. We sin every day and God through Christ has to keep working on us daily. Perhaps we see some small improvement compared to what we were before being called, but this is as nothing compared to what we will be when our change comes.
My further point then is that we should not be discouraged by our human limitations and lack of personal improvement, doubts, fears, frustrations, that we may find in our self examination. God has planned from the beginning to do the whole job. None of us will be able to please God by results caused by our own efforts. It is all God's work in us.
If you have further critiques please send them, I do want to learn and be corrected.
Indiana Bob
Hi Bob, your quote
but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns.
John 5:24 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:39-40 (KJV)
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 8:34-39 (KJV)
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Revelation 2:17 (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:1 (KJV)
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 5:1 (KJV)
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Romans 8:14-15 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6 (KJV)
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD...
Sorry Bob but I don't agree with that statement, thats just a few scriptures out of hundreds that say no to your statement.
R P J
Michael
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Hi Bob. Bob I think these scriptures quoted are in the present!!
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ( and what proof do we have) therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Romans 8:14-15 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, ( and who is led by the Spirit, the elect) they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6 (KJV)
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
If one thing that I remember LRay saying is we must believe the scriptures!! I underlined that which states it in the present.
R.P. J
Michael
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Hi Michael,
My understanding is that we have an "earnest" or a down payment, a declaration of intention through the indwelling of God's spirit, Christ's spirit.
So then one may say that we are "begotten" of God in this life, but we are not yet born of the spirit. We have a great change coming in our future based upon God's promise and we need to continue in faith trusting that God will fulfill His promise.
Check the full definition of the scripture where you read "born", I think it is better rendered begotten. (moderators correct me please)
For example, I know in myself that I still am weak and subject to temptation.
After I am born of the spirit of God I will have strength similar to that of our Lord Jesus and no longer be under temptation.
Does that explain a little better? I hope...
Indiana Bob
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Hi Bob, yes Iknow that the only one born of God is Jesus. But your quote stated that none qualify now and that's the part I don't agree with. All my scriptures say that we are qualified. That's all . And why are the elect qualified, because they died and if that includes me, I died and there for my life is hid in In Christ and as he is in this world some am I. I must believe the scriptures. Do you have scriptures that say we are not the sons of God. And if you do please show them to me or else I have to believe what the scriptures say!
In Christ Michael
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Hi Bob, here is some scriptures that say we are born of God
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ( and as he is so are we in this world born of God ) and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Born
G1080 (Strong)
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring
In Christ Michael
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1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I guess that scripture ensures my appoitment at the white throne judgement as I don't believe Im sin free at this point and time in my life.
Im confused though because scripture also says if anyone says they have not sinned they are lying and have not the love of God in them.
God bless.
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Hi Rick, when we have received the Holy Spirit we become a "new creation" (2Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15), it's not that we are no longer carnal or sin, but with the Spirit indwelling we are not under the death penalty, we have life, spiritual life.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
v. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
v. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
1Cor 6:11 That is what some of you were! But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus the Messiah and by the Spirit of our God.
Psa 103:11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
v. 12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
1John 3:9 Whoever has been born (G1080, begotten) of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born (begotten) of God.
What I believe it means by "cannot sin" is that "you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Col 3:3 )... keeping going with this thought "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1) and finally "(even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved)" (Eph 2:5)... v. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
It's all about Christ, when His Spirit comes into us we are His and He has us covered, "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Now with the Spirit God in us, teaching us, we are overcoming.
1John 5:4 For whatever is born (begotten) of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
1John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Php 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,
One other thing it is the same Greek word for born and begotten, while still in the flesh we are begotten, we have the earnest or promise of the inheritance of being born into His Kingdom at the first resurrection.
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee (G728 a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
As long as we are in this fleshly carnal body we are not born of the spirit.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
v. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
v. 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat, would just like to add to that,
Hi Rick like Kat showed we are hid in Christ
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
And again,
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Revelation 14:5 (KJV)
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Michael
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Hi Kat and Michael,
I been thinking and reflecting on the scriptures you both had put in your reply these past few days, I've come to understand what is not possible for man is for God.
One cannot hurry things or slow things, Gods timing is always perfect. It seems God always gives us what we need when we need it for our growth though one may not always see it that way.
Psa, 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity and in whose spirit there is no guile.
There is so much to be thankful for.
God bless. :)
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Hi Rick
One cannot hurry things or slow things, Gods timing is always perfect. It seems God always gives us what we need when we need it for our growth though one may not always see it that way.
Very true :)
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Amen to being thankful to God
Righteousness, Peace and Joy
Michael
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Hi Kat, I just can't help but thinking on this, Part of your quote
Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
Thats huge, so if the elect will be like him will they not be omnipresent? And if so meeting in the air and coming back here could well have them in both places at once? And the elect could be in the hearts of men holding them accountable at the same time? Them being cast into the lake of fire, the elect, wow how will that work? Wow so much to think on! I guess Paul new somethings, that he could tell us to set are minds on the prize of the high calling!! How awesome is our God...
Michael
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Michael, the only way I can think about it is that the elect will be like Christ on this earth after His own resurrection.
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Hi Kat, I just can't help but thinking on this, Part of your quote
Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
Thats huge, so if the elect will be like him will they not be omnipresent? And if so meeting in the air and coming back here could well have them in both places at once? And the elect could be in the hearts of men holding them accountable at the same time? Them being cast into the lake of fire, the elect, wow how will that work? Wow so much to think on! I guess Paul new somethings, that he could tell us to set are minds on the prize of the high calling!! How awesome is our God...
Michael
Omnipresent is certainly a quality that God has, but I think that is specifically speaking of the Father. The Father is beyond anything I can comprehend, being everywhere at once, is certainly one of them and no doubt He has many qualities that we in the physical cannot relate to. Christ is able to draw on all of those qualities I suppose, but He was brought forth as a being with a spiritual body/image and that does not appear, to me, to be omnipresent as the Father is.
When the elect are giving glorious spiritual bodies I do believe they will have the qualities that Jesus has and exhibited after resurrection, like Dave was speaking of. I cannot understand what it is like to be invisible as Christ was when He vanished from the disciples sight... I do understand that to exist in the spiritual realm, another dimension beyond the physical world, you do not have a 'physical' body, but a spiritual body. But to interact with the physical realm, just as Christ did after resurrection you do need a physical body and I would suppose the elect can take on a physical body to appear to the physical world as He did.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Dave, Kat
Yes I do agree with you as these scriptures say what you are saying
Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus
John 20:14 (KJV)
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
Luke 24:31 (KJV)
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
John 20:19-29 (KJV)
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Here is a quote from LRay
"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
I was thinking
John 10:30 (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us
John 17:11 (KJV)
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we
Thats why I was thinking about omnipresent, I guess that being in two places at the same time does't add up to omnipresent. But is Jesus not in His Father who is Omnipresent and would not that make Him Omnipresent?
Thanks Michael
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Here is a quote from LRay
"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
I was thinking
John 10:30 (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us
John 17:11 (KJV)
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we
Thats why I was thinking about omnipresent, I guess that being in two places at the same time does't add up to omnipresent. But is Jesus not in His Father who is Omnipresent and would not that make Him Omnipresent?
Thanks Michael
Knowing that the Son was brought forth with the image of a man, I don't think He needs to be omnipresent as the Father is... He is in the form of a man to serve God's purpose. Every place that speaks of God's image in OT is of a man, when Ezekiel had 'visions' of God in His magnificent appearance He appeared like a man. We know this is who became Jesus.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
And He is still the same, as a man, since His resurrection in the NT.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
As you showed Christ is totally one with the Father and not a separate being. They are one in Spirit and mind and that's how the Father operates, it's through Christ to do what is necessary for this physical world. Christ is the Father's means of working, by and through the being of His Son, that He designed to be like us in the form of a man. That's how Jesus could say "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Christ can automatically draw on all the powers of the Father... even the Spirit of Christ that believers receive is from the Father.
John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
So anyway I'm just seeing that you can't separate the Father from Christ... even though the Father is certainly omnipresent, I don't see Christ that way. Christ is in the image of a man so we can know and relate to God and that is how I believe it is suppose to be.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat, excellent!! :D
What a blessing to have a place to come where those that are before you in the Lord can encourage and edify those who come after.
Michael
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Hi Anthony, to your original question,
Hi Kat, now I see what your saying in reply #5
There are many Scripture that speaks of what happens in this age and it is certain that nobody will escape death, which Michael shows many Scripture that says so. Paul says that the few elect will be "changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1Cor 15:51, 52). Yes this is only the elect that will be "changed" and have glorious spiritual bodies and go to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Thess 4:17).
But when it comes to all the people that will be living on earth when the next age heralds in, we do not see Scripture that speaks of anything happening to them. Here is a passage in Revelation that speaks directly to the beginning of the next age, the elect are already resurrected "new Jerusalem" descending to earth with Christ announces to the people on earth that He is returning to live with them on earth. That passage says "there shall be no more death" and nothing of all the unconverted people being killed or dying, nor does any other Scripture I know of.
Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
v. 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
This is what came to me when I reread the starting of this thread until I hit your post Kat
Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death ( the gehenna fire ) their first death and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, which would be their first death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the second death ( physical ) would have no effect on them. So the second death is for those who have died once physically and will be resurrected into there second death the lake of fire and they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!
So there could be billions of people who never taste physical death, I see that, is that what you were saying Kat?
R.P and J In Christ Michael
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Hi Michael, here is where Ray has explained this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -----------------------------------
As we shall see, Jesus has "the keys of hades and of death." Jesus can therefore unlock the gates when He gathers His Elect at His coming, and receive them into His Kingdom. The rest of the dead are resurrected with physical bodies, back to physical life, to enter their SECOND death, which will no longer hurt God's Elect.
v
Death itself will be destroyed, or as the Concordant Version renders it: "the last enemy being abolished: death." (It is more likely to abolish something that is inanimate rather than to destroy it as the King James translates it).
So we have the act, the state, and the cause, all being the definition of "death." Hence all three must be abolished or there will yet remain some form of death which would then continue to be an eternal "enemy" in God's creation.
The lake of fire/second death is how God deals with the sins of humanity. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity (I John 2:2). But what it seems the whole Christian world is failing to see, understand, and experience, is GETTING THE SIN OUT OF THE SINNER.
v
And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:08). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!
There is to be judgment upon the wicked and judgment upon God's Elect of The House of God. And both of these groups are judged by the spiritual fire of God Almighty, "For our God IS a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).
FIRE & JUDGMENT on God's Elect:
"That the trial of your faith [God's Elect], being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 1:7 & 4:17).
FIRE & JUDGMENT on the UNGODLY:
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (II Pet. 3:7).
Revelation shows us that the "lake of fire" is where all humanity will be "judged" (Rev. 20:13), and this lake of fire is the SECOND death:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND death" (Rev. 20:14)
and
"the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND death" (Rev. 21:08).
v
"And I saw another sign in heaven...And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" (Rev. 15:1 & 2).
Yes, these are the Elect of God who are now before the Throne of God and are standing on a beautiful crystal clear sea of glass. They have been tamed. They have conquered the beast within and the beast of Babylon without. They are shown victorious over the beast, his image, his mark and his name, but it came at a price. Did you notice the words "sea of glass mingled with FIRE?" Yes, the world must go through the fire, the lake of fire/second death, and so must God's Elect. But here they are pictured SAFE (saved) not unlike when Jesus calmed the sea and saved His Own disciples from the raging waves of the sea.
v
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
v
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).
But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."
"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).
The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.
Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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No matter how many times I read that from Ray, I could never understand what it meant to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" till today. It's like the blinders were kept in place till now. Not sure why. Anyway great discussion!
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Hello everyone,
My quote
Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death ( the gehenna fire ) their first death and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, which would be their first death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the second death ( physical ) would have no effect on them. So the second death is for those who have died once physically and will be resurrected into there second death the lake of fire and they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!
Just Editing for clearer understanding. Like to add LRay didn't say anything about those who are alive and remain who are not the elect in the quote that Kat showed that I could see. So this order below is How I,am trying to see when the next age begins with those who are alive when he returns with his elect. And corrections added as well!
Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death, the first Death and then comes judgement ( the second death ) and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time who are not the elect, will be also Baptized into his death, and cast into the lake of fire, which would be the second death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the physical death would have no effect on them. So those who have died once physically and will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire judgement which is the second death, they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!
AS I see it! :) Re edited again today ,the blinders came off ::)
So only the elect are in the first death, and all the rest are in the second death which is the lake of fire. So really physical death has nothing to do with it. The beast must die!!
Michael
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Hi Porter,
No matter how many times I read that from Ray, I could never understand what it meant to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" till today. It's like the blinders were kept in place till now. Not sure why. Anyway great discussion!
Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter
Michael
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But I see I am still having problem with all this
Here is a couple quotes from lake of fires series Part 16 hades and second death,
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:8).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
Now couple scriptures that state the elect will not be harmed by the second death and that the second death is the lake of fire. So do they really go into the second death if it has no power over them?
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
And then these verse's which states what is the second death
Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Can anyone see a problem with that? Or is it just some thing I am over looking?
thats why I posted this comment I thought this was right, heres my quote
Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter
Ok I still need others input on this, because I see problem. HELP!! Please.
Michael
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Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?
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Now couple scriptures that state the elect will not be harmed by the second death and that the second death is the lake of fire. So do they really go into the second death if it has no power over them?
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
And then these verse's which states what is the second death
Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Can anyone see a problem with that? Or is it just some thing I am over looking?
thats why I posted this comment I thought this was right, heres my quote
Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter
Ok I still need others input on this, because I see problem. HELP!! Please.
Michael
Michael, in the article Ray was explaining how the elect "die once" and then they are under judgment according to this Scripture.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
For the elect they "die once" in being spiritually baptized into Jesus, symbolically being buried in the baptism water and raised out of that in "newness of life" - spiritual life, the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is not a ritual in a church, but it happens in the life of every elect.
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
So then after this spiritual baptism happens to a believer, then they are going through "after this the judgment," that is the 'second death' for them that happens in this life, in this age.
1Cor 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, "For Your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
Now for the rest of the world the order in the Hebrew's verse is more obvious. They die once a physical death as all in this age must, then when they are raised up in the next age they will enter the great white throne judgment - lake of fire - second death.
All the Scripture that you posted is of the next age, the age of judgment for the world, their "second death" of which the elect will not need further judgment at that time. No, the "second death" of the next age will have no power over the elect, because they will already have been raised and perfected in the first resurrection... the elect actually are the lake of fire, they are those that will judge the world under Christ.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
v. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (spurious). This is the first resurrection.
v. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?
Remember these Scripture.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
Once the Holy Spirit is indwelling, Christ is directing our lives and they're then under the atoning sacrifice of Christ and all sin past, present and future are forgiven. Now though we still sin for as long as we are in this flesh body, those sins are used as teaching lessons for correction/chastisement by the Spirit. But the chosen few have "no condemnation" and that's how they are "set free from sin."
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
v. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
v. 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Rom 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting (eonian) life.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, I obviously agree with those scripture. Yet I have never met someone that doesn't sin. I believe someday I won't sin anymore while having a physical body. I don't know what needs to happen that enables me to not sin after my earthly death. I always assumed that my sinful nature won't exist after resurrection, but I don't know if that's scriptural. If you have a reference on that, that would be great.
Thanks
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Hi Wittenburg, when a person is actually born into the kingdom at the first resurrection, they will receive a glorious spiritual body, immortal and imperishable. They will then be "like Christ" (1John 3:2) and will raise up to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Th_4:17).
1Cor 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
v. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
For now the elect are only begotten, having an earnest/promise of His Spirit,
2Cor 1:21 Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God;
v. 22 who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (that's talking about the elect), to the praise of His glory.
Rom 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting (eonian) life.
v. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal (eonian) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Those Scripture should show you that the elect are given the Holy Spirit now as a promise for what is to come, eonian/age-enduring Life, in perfect unity with God. Those that join with God in the first resurrection will be perfected as He is, they will not be in the flesh and not subject to sin.
John 17:20 "I do not pray for these (the disciples) alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
v. 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
It all begins when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, but that is just the beginning the believer must "endure to the end" of this life, never losing hope and remaining faithful then will be in the first resurrection.
Matt 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible (G862), and we shall be changed.
G862
aphthartos - undecaying (in essence or continuance): - not (in-, un-) corruptible, immortal.
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4 to an inheritance incorruptible (G862) and undefiled (G283) and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
G283
amiantos - unsoiled, that is, (figuratively) pure: - undefiled.
So it is a process, those that are elect were always meant to be so, all their lives they are being prepared, and ends when a person is united/joined with Christ and becomes one with God, perfected, at the first resurrection.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
v. 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
LRays quote
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
End of quote
THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH ( if man is appointed once to die , how can he die twice? And if so Shouldn’t the writer of Hebrews said it is appointed on to man to die twice, once in his first death and once in his second death ? ) OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
Is he stating we die twice? And if so how can that be? The scripture says man is appointed once to die.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment:
The next verse seems to agree with this verse,
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many ( meaning everyone ). and unto them ( them who died once ) that look for him shall he ( he that died once ) appear the second time without sin unto salvation. ( No second death )
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ( are appointed death through baptism )
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,( thats how we die our appointed death, thought baptism ) that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ( No second death )
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, ( your appointed death ) and your life is hid with Christ in God.
How can you die twice, I can not find it the scriptures!
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment:
LRays quote
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.
There are the only four scriptures that have the second death mentioned
These two scriptures are both witness’s two that fact that the second death will not hurt and will have no power over the elect!
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh ( those who died in the first death they were appointed to, ) shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection : upon these,( those who died in the first death they were appointed to,) the second death, hath no authority; but they shall be priest of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
So how can they be apart of the second death?
And these two tell us what the second death is
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment: DOES JUDGEMENT BRING DEATH?
How can Judgement be the second death death, if you are only appointed to die once, Or for that matter the first death?
The order in that scriptures is ( #1) to die once, ( #2 ) after this judgment
I do not see two deaths in that statement! No I see one death and one judgement onto salvation which is Life In Christ Jesus. No second death. For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death. Do the scriptures say that you are to die two deaths? Or is it when the first time death comes, it comes to the elect and the second time death comes, it comes to the many and death and hell?
Isa 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
What is judgement ?
This is what LRay said Judging was, heres his quote,
Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!
"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
End of quote
For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death
I do not see any death in that statement! No I see judgement that leads to Life
I wonder why Paul never said it is appointed to man to die many, many deaths?
1Co 15:31 I face death every day. That is true, brothers and sisters, just as it is true that I am proud of what you are because of Christ Jesus our Lord.
Fire does not bring death
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
1 Peter 1:6 (KJV)
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Michael
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Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment: DOES JUDGEMENT BRING DEATH?
How can Judgement be the second death death, if you are only appointed to die once, Or for that matter the first death?
The order in that scriptures is ( #1) to die once, ( #2 ) after this judgment
I do not see two deaths in that statement! No I see one death and one judgement onto salvation which is Life In Christ Jesus. No second death. For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death. Do the scriptures say that you are to die two deaths? Or is it when the first time death comes, it comes to the elect and the second time death comes, it comes to the many and death and hell?
Michael, you understand that the elect die once in being baptized into Christ... their second death IS their judgment in this life. As Ray stated "THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH," so the judgment the the elect are going through in this life means the same thing as their second death.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
That putting to death our carnality is the second death judgment on the elect now, it is dying to self, a process that goes on the rest of our physical lives, as Paul said "I die daily" (1Cor 15:31), this is our judging ourselves.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves (now in this life), we would not be judged (in the next age with the rest of the world's second death).
v. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
Christ explained this judging (second death) of ourselves, as symbolically cutting off or plucking out those things or the carnality we have.
Mat 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting (eonian) fire.
v. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell (gehenna) fire.
All the times the scripture mention the "second death" it is speaking of the world's judgment in the next age, it never implies the term to the elect, we surmise it. Remember there are many mysteries in the Scripture, lots of things are not spoken out right, we have to look for the meaning of these things through putting many Scripture together.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat, you always point us in the right direction :) Enjoyed this thread.
Jingle
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Hi Kat
I still do not agree with your quote
your quote
Michael, you understand that the elect die once in being baptized into Christ... their second death IS their judgment in this life. As Ray stated "THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH," so the judgment the the elect are going through in this life means the same thing as their second death.
End of quote
And here is Lrays quote
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
End of quote
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
As LRay said it was already in her heart
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Thats it, the law of sin and death. Thats the death you are appointed to die to once. I have shown you in other scriptures and here is a few more,
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord
In my previous post # 86 there is one death and one life! And same as above.
There is no second death for man, he is only appointed once to die.
So whats the second death,
Here is the ONLY four scriptures that mention the second death i will continue in next post.
Michael
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continued from last post.
Here are the ONLY four scriptures on the second death, but in order for me to show you what I believe is the second death ,we first have to look at all the scriptures containing
resurrection or the first resurrection. There are 40 verses found with the word resurrection in them and only two of them mention the first resurrection. And one suggest a resurrection on to life and judgement. lets see what it says
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
When his righteous judgement are in the earth ( they don’t lead to death, but to life ) the inhabitants will learn righteousness.
These mention the first resurrection
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
There is no mention of a second resurrection through out the whole bible. Even though there are many resurrections they will all be the first resurrection. Now back to the second death
Four scriptures on the second death and I added one scripture with them Rev: 20-5 And should we also remember, Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( a resurrection at a different time,and still their first and only resurrection )
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ( his only resurrection, and all the rest will only have a first resurrection as above scripture says ) ) on such the second death hath no power,( The second death will have power over know one!! ) but they ( the elect ) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.( what is the symbolism of death and hell, is it not the law of sin and death and the grave! ) This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: ( would not that be the symbolism of Sin ) which is the second death.
Death and hell are brought before judgement in the lake of fire ( Jesus and his elect are the lake of fire ) and judgement leads to life.
Lrays quote
THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
There is no second death for man because he is only appointed to die ONCE.. Judgement leads to life.
No, whats cast into the lake of fire is the law of sin and death, thats the second death, the death of the law of sin and death. And there was no more DEATH
Can you see it?
2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me:
In Christ Michael
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Michael, let me see if I can explain this again.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
This once to die is speaking of the physical/literal death that every person in this age must happen to. Now I see where we are not seeing it the same way, that is the understanding of the second death.
This second death is not the literal cessation of physical life like the first 'once to die,' it is judgment, and that means correction, purging and being cleansed of all carnality. This judgment which happens to the few elect in this life, in this age is that process of correction that last the rest of their lives. As Ray explained it is after being baptized into His death - 'once to die,' then is judgement, a 'spiritual' second death of being corrected/chastened.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
All of the elect will then go on the die physically, and await the first resurrection in the grave.
The rest of the human race will 'die once' a physical death... as Adam represented all humanity that partake of the tree of life, experience good and evil and then die a physical death. All those that have NOT received the Holy Spirit indwelling, whose names are NOT written in the "Book of Life - Christ, these are all the dead that ever lived that will be raised back up to a physical life in the next age, with their same old carnal human beast nature. They are resurrected to judgment/correction, which is a spiritual second death of their carnality, which will be a process just as it is for the elect in this age.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14 Then Death (the physical death) and Hades (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Yes "there shall be no more death" in the next age, when Christ returns this age of "the law of sin and death" will come to a end. He will reign with the elect in the great white throne JUDGMENT period/age, when all of the world, everybody that has ever lived, will be taught righteous.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.
Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.
This is from the article in the LoF 16 E. 'Hades and the Second Death.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).
"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).
"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).
"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).
But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:
1.The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.
2.The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.
3.We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.
v
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.
Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."
For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see.
v
All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:08). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!
------------------------------------------------------------------
If we still cannot agree on this, instead of just talking in circles we can just leave it here, for now anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, let me see if I can explain this again,
Heres all the scriptures LRay point out
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).
"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).
"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).
"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5)
Everyone of those scriptures are saying
casting and plucking which leads to life, why is Paul dying daily? Because he killing his flesh and how is he killing his flesh, by JUDGEMENT and judgement doesn't lead to death, no judgement leads to LIFE.
here is your quote and part of LRays quote you refer to
This second death is not the literal cessation of physical life like the first 'once to die,' it is judgment, and that means correction, purging and being cleansed of all carnality. This judgment which happens to the few elect in this life, in this age is a process. As Ray explained it is after they are baptized into His death - 'once to die,' then is their judgement, a 'spiritual' second death of being corrected/chastened.
How can you have a spiritual death when the order is first physical and THEN the spiritual. You can't die spiritually if you are not born in the spirit. No that whole comment does't make sense.
If man is appointed to more then on death then you will have to remove most of the scriptures and all the ones I posted before in the last few reply.
LRays quote
Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."
All I can say to that is, Prov 30:6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
Lays Quote
For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see.
Oh really is there a chapter and verse on that?
Now I showed you what the second death was and who was effected by it , read it over and over until you see it, its right there!!
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( a resurrection at a different time,and still their first and only resurrection )
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ( his only resurrection, and all the rest will only have a first resurrection as above scripture says ) ) on such the second death hath no power,( The second death will have power over know one!! ) but they ( the elect ) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.( what is the symbolism of death and hell, is it not the law of sin and death and the grave! ) This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: ( would not that be the symbolism of Sin ) which is the second death.
There is no second death for man because he is only appointed to die ONCE.. Judgement leads to life.
No, whats cast into the lake of fire is the law of sin and death, thats the second death, the death of the law of sin and death. And there was no more DEATH
And I am not talking in circle...
Michael
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Michael, if you cannot understand what Ray stated, as those last 2 quotes you put in your post are from Ray's article. We need to let this go for now, as I do not know what else to tell you. Maybe review his LoF article E. 'Hades and the Second Death' again.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat that will be fine! I will not read them again.
2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me:
In Christ Michael
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Hi Wittenberg, Heres what i have for both of your post..
Kat, I obviously agree with those scripture. Yet I have never met someone that doesn't sin. I believe someday I won't sin anymore while having a physical body. I don't know what needs to happen that enables me to not sin after my earthly death. I always assumed that my sinful nature won't exist after resurrection, but I don't know if that's scriptural. If you have a reference on that, that would be great.
Thanks
This might help you to understand what sin is doing in your life now if you died and your life is hid in Christ
This is what Paul said,
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ( Judgement comes now onto life )
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, ( not the man but the body ) that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: ( same for you ) but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, ( but alive to God, not alive to die again ) but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.( unto life not death )
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, ( death ) but under grace. ( which leads to life, not death )
I am now under grace and grace teaches me righteousness onto life. So any sin I do is not under the law which brings
death, for I died once. But if I sin now its under grace which brings righteousness onto life. Can you see that? Thank God for grace, I need grace, I need a lot of grace...
Romans 5:20-21 (KJV)
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:( onto life ,not death )
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, (thats the law ) even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life ( not death )by Jesus Christ our Lord.
When you died and you were hid in Christ, your sin is in judgement onto life!
Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Do you see that when you are in the fire it leads to life and not death....
Michael
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This is an example of why "No Teaching" is allowed on the forum. As a reminder, here is what Ray had to say about why this rule exist:
http://bible-truths.com/video/NoTeaching.mp4
Why No Teaching On This Forum (transcript)
You know, because sometimes these discussions get a little out of hand... basically we teach that you are not suppose to 'teach' on the forum. The main reason for that is, many times it turns into heresy... but people can't always distinguish what is or what isn't heresy. Therefore they give their opinions and if somebody reads it on our forum, they say 'well this is what they teach on Ray's forum.' Yea, but Ray doesn't teach that on Ray's forum... somebody else does and we don't always agree.