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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: EKnight on October 19, 2008, 04:00:32 PM
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Hello All,
This subject is not for debate. I am only writing because I don't know how to handle my situation.
Before BT, Christmas was always a big deal for my kids and for my husband's family and for myself when I was young.
Since marrying, it has become a thorn in my side. For years I have resented having to spend additional monies on my husband's brothers and sisters and in-laws. Most have more money than us and Christmas became nothing but an expense I didn't need. Therefore, no matter how hard I attempted to make Christmas about the birth of Christ, it always got lost in the hustle, bustle and worry of finding and buying gifts. So it's pretty much always been a headache for me. I find no joy in it at all.
My husband's family has always had a party Christmas eve and we have always attended and exchanged gifts with them. This year it poses a big problem because my husband has to work very early Christmas day and his family's party is about an hour and a half away which adds up to three hours travel time Christmas eve and will result in my husband getting about two or three hours sleep and having to be awake for 16 hours (including travel to and from work). The drive to work is long and I am worried about him driving under the influence of sleep deprivation. So, I don't want to go to the Christmas eve gathering for that reason and others. He insists he can do it, I know he is just being a martyr in order to keep peace with his family. But it is going to cause a riff between the two of us. It is already a bone of contention.
In addition to the in-law problem, I now have a problem with my own husband and kids. They are calling me the grinch because I have been telling (warning) them that this Christmas is not going to be like the past. I explained that they are in need of nothing and that I am not spending tons of money on expensive electronics or clothes they don't need. I tried to get them to be receptive to making a charitable donation instead. They are clearly of the flesh (including my husband) and will not see things my way (or God's way).
So my problem is, how can I expect everyone in my life to suddenly take on my newly attained beliefs and adopt practices foreign to them just because my heart has been turned around?? The answer is, I can't expect them to feel differently but how am I supposed to handle this? How can I reconcile my views to their expectations of Christmas. After all, I am the one who took care of and created these pagan family traditions.
It's only October and the holiday is not yet upon me but is already causing me grief. I wish I were a bear who could sleep through the whole thing and wake up in the spring.
Whatever encouraging thoughts you guys can share would be appreciated but please don't take this topic out of context and turn it into a debate about celebrating Christmas and all of the negative connotations that go with it.
Thanks,
Eileen
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Eileen I've suffered with the same kind of problems over this. I can't offer much help because my solution has always been "the heck with your feelings I don't do christmas anymore" not a very Christian attitude :-\. All I can say is make sure you are thinking of others and handling them with love while not forsaking your God and what He tells you is right. Be an example to your family, maybe spend christmas serving food at a shelter, I don't think anyone can call you a grinch for that. Just show them how you have changed and how that change is for the better, God will handle the rest. Praying for strength and wisdom for you in this situation.
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All the adults in my life know I do not exchange gifts. But I do get the grand kids stuff for Christmas.
IMO, if other's in the house want a tree, let them get it. No big deal. It's not like they are intentionally celebrating a pagan holiday.
I agree about excessive spending, but let them have as much fun as you can afford (within reason).
Just try not to get legalistic about this. There are much more important issues.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
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Thanks Dennis and Krista.
I am in the process of compiling a list of all we have. Like everyone has a TV in their room, their own laptop plus we have a desktop, xbox, wii, gamecube, playstation, a 42 inch flatscreen HD TV, more clothes than dresser space, three good cars, food, a home and each other and good health. Good Lord, what more could they need or want???!! Then I am contrasting our lives with those of Darfur and the eastern Congo where genocide and rape are prevalent. If after all that, they still insist that we can't scale down Christmas, I will give them each a check for the same amount payable to no one. Then they can decide to make it out to themselves or to a charity. Is that too harsh? Manipulative? Controlling? :-\
What does legalistic mean? ???
Eileen
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Wrong. Too harsh, manipulative, and controlling.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
You should not force your beliefs on your family. That will only turn them off to your beliefs.
Don't make your children appear abnormal to their piers. Pier pressure is extremely powerful. Your children will grow up resenting you.
I came out of the Worldwide Church of God. They were very legalistic. So are the JW's, SDA'st, and most of all, the church. Full of rules and law's that oppress.
We are under a different, higher standard, called love.
Your husband is the head of the house. Give him a reasonable check and let him decide what to do with it.
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Ay yi yi. The thought of giving a blank check over to my husband makes my stomach churn. He is most wasteful. Besides, he would only consider that a burden and resent me for it.
I understand your thoughts Dennis on being manipulative and controlling but my kids are adults. At this point in their lives, they shouldn't be worried about their peers. I guess I just don't want the feelings of guilt when I spend the money to fulfill their carnal desires. You know?
Eileen
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Hi Eileen,
Each family has there own set of circumstances that makes it unique. Nobody can know exactly what is right for someone else.
But I had developed much of the same feelings you had about Christmas before coming to the Truth. I already was aware that Christmas was pagn, but had not embraced that in my spirit and was very involved in all the clamor. I was so relieved and was conviction that for me personally I should not be involved in it any more. My girls at that time were in there upper teens and I felt they could handle my decision.
It is a tenuous arrangement we have now. I told them I was not going to participate; not put up a tree, not buy gifts, not decorate. But they could do as they liked for themselves and I would not interfere. So they do carry on without me and put up a tree and get each other gifts.
They may resent me a bit for pulling out on them, but there is not much they can say, because our family is a lot like your family and they have a lot of things. So I don't get involved, but it's mainly with the gift giving and decorating. I do help with a special meal and I will talk with them about what they are getting each other, I try not to make them think I feel superior or anything like that. We don't live near my extended family and had been staying home for years, so that was not a problem.
It's what you can make work for you and your family. If your children are like mine, when you start cutting back on the materialism they won't like it a bit. So you do what you think will work, a compromise at this point is not a bad idea.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ay yi yi. The thought of giving a blank check over to my husband makes my stomach churn. He is most wasteful. Besides, he would only consider that a burden and resent me for it.
I understand your thoughts Dennis on being manipulative and controlling but my kids are adults. At this point in their lives, they shouldn't be worried about their peers. I guess I just don't want the feelings of guilt when I spend the money to fulfill their carnal desires. You know?
Eileen
Oh, well, that's different, my kids are grown too and they don't get squat. I didn't suggest a blank check. I don't see any check unless there are grandchildren.
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Yes Kat, I agree. I don't think I can pull the rug from right beneath them in one swoop. I mean, I had every intention of getting a tree because I love the scent. And I will decorate because a lot of the decorations have personal family meaning. I just want to pull away from the material side of this holiday. The side that the rest of the world emphasizes......buy buy buy! I can't stand the "laundry list" of things to buy. Here is my list, now go buy it for me. Ugh!!!!
If it is a time of giving to those less fortunate, I am all for it. I know this should be done throughout the year and for the most part, I do that. And I enjoy getting together with family, I value the people in my life but I don't want things anymore and I want my kids to understand that the flesh profits nothing. I've always tried to tell them that but my actions (overspending at Christmas and Birthdays) has not demonstrated it to them. And for that I am sorry. :-[
Thanks for bearing with me on this topic.
Eileen
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Hello All: I can't tell anyone how to make there own personal decision. All, I can say is that for sometime I have been thinking Christmas has become all about money and less about Love. I have thought this long before joining in this believe.I think like Dennis in Col 2:16 To me there is worse things then this. If we know our true motive. To me the worse thing I ever believed was my believe that there is a Hell. Well, I had to repent of my believe of my Dear Lord and Saviors Character. He was born in a manger and without that birth we would have had no beginning of freedom from our sins. I know they say he was not born in Dec. I think the early christians choose this date to try and take away from the pagan holiday. I never have had christmas thinking of a Pagan worship.God is the Judge of mans heart not us.
This year we have decided no gifts with my husbands family. No gifts for my side either. My husband and I never had chidren. Although we bought for his family an my family who did have children.
I want to share how Christmas affected me. My Father and I would get the decorations down after Thanksgiving. My mother always cooked the meal. We did not have alot of money. But, over the years I saw my parents give me what the could afford. I loved Christmas as a child cause of the decorations and how they gave life to the winter time. I enjoyed so much spending time with my family. Even, I had made it kind of materialistic.
A few years before, I came on here the Lord showed me that people had made this more a material thing. He showed me it is just another day. But, I believe God knows what we make it from our heart. I know it has been a special family time together.
I believe there is no Greater thing then LOVE. My father was disabled , when he was 47. I got to have him home while I was in Junior High and High School.
I grew very close to him at that time. Both of my parents taught me good morals.
I once told my father not to die at Christmas. His Mother did and I saw it made him sad. However, we still had Christmas. I told him if you die at Christmas I will hate it forever. He said, " Please don't do that."
My father had to go into the nursing home in 1990. It was the hardest thing for my mother to do. They had celebrated there 50th wedding anniversary in Oct.
He was not well at all.
Now, for how Christmas of 1993 changed my life. My father had been in the nuring home for three years. Those three years were one of the hardest times of my life. When, I would go to the nursing home he would not know who I was. I was the baby of the family and spent alot of time with him. He would remember my husband, but not me. I felt like an outsider. I got to where I hated to go, but I would go.
In Nov. of 1993 , My husband and I went down to see him cause I had a dentist apointment. My mother was out of town to see a doctor. I bought him some peanut butter crackers and pineapple juice. Not knowing how he would treat me. Anyways, I went in and said " Dad would you like some crackers and pineapple. He said," Sure open them up Marlene." We had bought a house in 1989 and we wanted to bring him to our town to see it ,but he got too ill. That very same day. He said,"Marlene I never did get to see your house." Needless to say I was so happy this day.
In Dec. 19 my mother came up and stayed with us to get him some things he needed for Christmas. She always feels guilty that she was not there the night they called and said "that they were taking him to the hospital." She saw him everyday and spent most of her time with him everyday.The hospital was in another town. When, we got down there they said,"He probably would not make it through the night. When, we went in he asked, "Why do you all look so sad." ? I said "Dad we all love you". He told each and everyone of us that he loved us. He knew me even on his death bed. Praise be to God. He went into a coma. His minister came in and read him the story of the birth of christ and he squeezed his hand. My father passed away on the 20th. God gave me this greatest gift of love anyone could have had. He knew me in Nov. and Dec. He knew the story of the birth of christ in his coma. Well, now I know that I am blessed to know that Christmas is what you make it. I make it as a time to LOVE and not a time of just what one gets. Love is the greatest gift anyone ever got , when Christ came as a baby, knowing he would give us all the free gift of Life. That is the Good News !!!!!!!! His gift keeps on giving and is for all!
In His Love
Marlene
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Wow Marlene beautiful story! Thank you for sharing.
Great thoughts from all of you.
Eileen, that part about your husband driving would bother me too. Wouldn't the family understand? Have a quiet Eve at home??
Families are hard to deal w/ at times. We put up a tree and eat. We give our grown kids money to help them out, and like Dennis, I do get gifts for the grandkids :D
We NEVER celebrated Christs birth at Christmas. It was an American tradition, and Santa Claus was pretend. Thats how my kids grew up. We were to celebrate Jesus' life EVERY day.
It is not remotely a christian (babylonian) holiday. We eat and see family. Period. We do not exchange gifts w/ anyone outside our immediate family. Jerry and I haven't given gifts to each other ever. Well, except this: Hey, you got me these new jeans for Christmas. Oh, I did? OK.
Eileen, don't worry in Oct about Dec. Trust God. You have been given lots of advice here-seek the Lord's counsel too. It will all be OK. You will see ;)
Love ya,
gena
(Will keep you in prayer!)
PS Wow. Dennis, I have never seen you post so much! I like it :)
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Christmass? What's that? Just another day to me. In fact, on December 25 I just grudgingly go to visit family members and sit around gloating to myself about how much I know about this pagan holiday. It hurts my insides to not scream out "pagan holiday", winter solstice" "you indoctrinated traditionalists", ha ha ha. After spending those hours, arrogantly laughing to myself about how I have not gotten sucked into the hype, I finish stuffing my face, collect my many presents and head home. Christmas? Who needs it?
But I do need that 56 inch plasma TV, so Merry Christmas everbody!!
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Christmass? What's that? Just another day to me. In fact, on December 25 I just grudgingly go to visit family members and sit around gloating to myself about how much I know about this pagan holiday. It hurts my insides to not scream out "pagan holiday", winter solstice" "you indoctrinated traditionalists", ha ha ha. After spending those hours, arrogantly laughing to myself about how I have not gotten sucked into the hype, I finish stuffing my face, collect my many presents and head home. Christmas? Who needs it?
But I do need that 56 inch plasma TV, so Merry Christmas everbody!!
i was wondering when the tv was going to come into your story. i know you wouldn't miss your football on christmas. your so silly.
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Just one additional comment for Eileen and Marlene, from Indiana Bob
All good comments, friendly, reasonable, even a little corrective in love.
The main consideration for me is to be sure that I'm pleasing God.
And as has already been said, flavor every action, every decision with LOVE.
To Eileen, please do not worry about how you handle it this year or next year or even the third year. Gently let your family know that you are learning some new things and let it go at that. Our God is very patient and ALL knowing. You do not have to prove anything to God and I'm convinced that we shouldn't even try. Let it come naturally.
The main thing for those who are new to Bible Truths and to the forum is to LISTEN to the teaching of God's spirit in your heart, in your mind, in the things you read in scripture and in the breeze blowing in the trees. Just relax and accept that you are a beloved child of God that God is working with on an individual basis. God is touching you gently and will guide you at a pace that will benefit you in the best way. Just let His spirit flow over you and enjoy it for a year or two. You and I do not have to measure up to some standard that we set for ourselves. When God is ready for you to perform a task for Him then HE will tell you. You do not have to straighten things out for Him or meet a certain standard. When the time is right you will know it and you will respond with joyful obedience and love toward our Lord and comforter Jesus.
It is just like falling in love for the first time. You're like a tender, young teen ager in God's heart and His son and our Lord will smile and appreciate any little, simple thing that you do or say. He can even make an honest mistake turn out fine.
Relax, enjoy, God loves you.
Bob
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Eileen,
I do understand your need to sort this all out now, if your family is similar to mine they start shopping & planning now. You just want to avoid being trapped in the expectations of the years past. In sorting through this youself, Bob gave excellent advice, give it time before you run in and make big changes.
Here's why.....Our Beloved Sage Music Man gave you the answer, we may be trading one idol for another idol.
Sort out what you cherish about it, and what is carnal. We are complicated creatures, some times our motives are not as impartial as we think. Our righteousness comes not from doing or not doing Christmas.
The only righteousness/light that comes, is from Christ through you to be seen by them.
On this subject, many have had an experience of feeling betrayed when finding the truth about Santa Clause.
Oddly enough, my reaction was my Love & Respect for my parents increased to know they gave to me without taking any credit for it! That deepened my understanding of giving without reward.
I'm sorting through this with you,
Brenda
:)
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Wrong. Too harsh, manipulative, and controlling.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
You should not force your beliefs on your family. That will only turn them off to your beliefs.
Don't make your children appear abnormal to their piers. Pier pressure is extremely powerful. Your children will grow up resenting you.
I came out of the Worldwide Church of God. They were very legalistic. So are the JW's, SDA'st, and most of all, the church. Full of rules and law's that oppress.
We are under a different, higher standard, called love.
Your husband is the head of the house. Give him a reasonable check and let him decide what to do with it.
Hello Everyone,
I share Dennis Vogels viewpoint and not because he's the Administrator of this Forum, but for what's explained in the above, because I was one of those from an EXTREMELY LEGALISTIC DENOMINATION, THE JW'S. These type of denominations want to control every aspect of one's personal life, let God and the Scriptures do that.
Eileen, I don't have the desire to celebrate Christmas to this day, even prior to becoming a JW, I didn't like it, mainly because of the GREED AND SELFISHNESS that is so apparent in connection with gift giving and " keeping up with the joneses " And that was prior to discovering the " Pagan Origin " deal. The phony actions of people during this Holiday was enough for me, but now I try to approach these Holidays in a balanced way and as Kat mentions, this varies from family to family due to ones circumstances, otherwise, as a suggestion, LET THEM BE AND DON'T TRY TO CONTROL THEM, you'll tire and wear yourself out, it's a waste of valuable energy and as Dennis mentioned in an earlier comment, " There are more important issues. "
Just my honest opinion Eileen, Samson.
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I've always marveled at why when we start learning the truths of God and taste the freedom from the bondage of religion; after a short season we once again start putting ourselves back under that bondage?
Craig
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Marlene said: "Christmas is what you make it" to which I say "exactly"
We are not to celebrate Christmas, but those that do, do not celebrate it as the pagan holiday we know it is. And we are not to judge them for it anymore than we are not to judge anyone else on the planet for anything, because we are all what God has made us.
Well said Craig. I think people feel more comfortable in bondage, that gets them off the hook. All they have to do is perform the rituals and go to heaven.
Our journey is much more difficult.
Dennis
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I've always marveled at why when we start learning the truths of God and taste the freedom from the bondage of religion; after a short season we once again start putting ourselves back under that bondage?
Craig
How very true, your words are Craig. Thank you for saying this because us newbies need reminders every now and again not to yearn back for how things were in Egypt.
Heidi
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I say take advantage of the time to enjoy family or friends. People are off from work and school so why not get together and socialize.
People ask me what I am doing on certain holidays and I tell them the same thing I do on any other day. To me it is like a person who buys a Valentine day gift for their special someone only because someone else has said that on that day is when you do something special for your other half. I can't believe how many people feel totally obligated to do these things just because someone ELSE says they should. I have had a number of people ask me if I am a JW's just because I try to treat every day just as important as the next. I don't care if they call it "Magical Whoo Hooo Day" or whatever title they give it and stick a date to it, it doesn't change anything for me. Most people frown on my attitude about this but they fail to see that I am trying to live each day fully and be able to live freely without thinking I have to follow every constructed popular man made idea that comes along and is pushed on us with peer pressure and conformity.
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I was wondering if it might be helpful as some have done already, to share any clever holiday traditions they may have adapted to bring more of the right "Spirit" into it?
My Sister started a "Cook Book" with recipes from family members. She would write some things about the person, Like my Great Grandma (passed) who lived in Canada, and would feed the Indians whenever they would knock on the door. My Grandmother who is afraid of her own shadow would run & hide. lol :D Then we would add the person's favorite scripture, or one that describes what they tried to live.
We enjoy reading these and spend hours of the day laughing & reminiscing. And the younger ones get to learn about the many different knuckleheads, that have come before them.
The biggest costs for this gift is time & thoughtfulness put to paper. This gift is treasured memories!
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I'm just a piece of luggage. I go where they tell me to, and eat when they tell me to. I state clearly year after year that I do not want to 'exchange' presents, and year after year they pooh-pooh this, certain that they know what I 'mean' and 'want' more than I do. To not go along causes them grief. To go along causes me grief. So far, I have managed to esteem them more highly than myself.
Sadly, there won't be any kids this year as they are in Hawaii by orders of the US Army. My sister's third husband and his 21 year old son and his girlfriend will be there, no doubt. Hardly a suitable substitute for bright, smiling faces of the kiddies.
Thankfully, little is expected of me. If I'm drafted to read the nativity story from scripture again, I will do it. I certainly believe it all more now than I ever did before. I may have to preach, come to think of it.
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Dave, Dave, Dave. Yes the nativity story.
I have 2 Granddaughters one 3yrs the other 9+ months. My wife is still in Hagee land but does
not believe in christmas any longer. We do the christmas stuff with all the family (that participate)
including in-laws every year without trying for conversions. If asked i speak about
what i have learned without accusing or upbraiding anyone. We are in the world, not of the
world and can be a light without burning or consigning any one to burn.
George. :-X
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Hello, I have lost the need for Christmas. It has come a little at a time. This has been before, I knew the truth. I think God knows our heart. I don't ever care to go back to what I believed once. The Hell theory being the worse thing I could belive. That is about my Saviors Character. I don't yearn to be in bondage. I think God is the judge of each and everyones heart.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Of course, I'm joking about preaching. :D My mouth will likely be shut up like Zacharias, father of John the Baptist...but if it is opened, then all bets are off. ;D
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You can tell if the Word is for that person by their reaction. As soon as the Word is spoken their
eyes glaze over and they lose interest in whatever you are saying.
George. :-\
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Hello All : I have been reading in Romans 14 and 15 because of a discussion on the general discussion board. But, I belive Romans 14 and 15 can be of value on this subject of Christmas.
As, I said, in a previous post I believe this is a matter of right and wrong in our own heart. God judges us and knows if our heart is condemed. My husbands great grandmother who lived to be 101 years old was one of the most Godly saints I ever knew. She celebrated Christmas. To her it was about his Birth. I could never judge and say she was not accepted because of that. But, if it would be wrong to me in my heart I have to judge myself. I would never wanted to make her stumble in a disputable manner. The Lord judges her heart as well as ours. We should do what we decide in our heart does not condemn us. I hope you will all read Romans 14 and 15.
In His Love
Marlene
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Christmass? What's that? Just another day to me. In fact, on December 25 I just grudgingly go to visit family members and sit around gloating to myself about how much I know about this pagan holiday. It hurts my insides to not scream out "pagan holiday", winter solstice" "you indoctrinated traditionalists", ha ha ha. After spending those hours, arrogantly laughing to myself about how I have not gotten sucked into the hype, I finish stuffing my face, collect my many presents and head home. Christmas? Who needs it?
Musicman, Dont leave out the post Christmass lunch Nap, and Mucho Football. Life is good, and I will worry about taking down the Christmas lights along about March 19th or 20th, which ever comes first.
Love in Christ
Longhorn
But I do need that 56 inch plasma TV, so Merry Christmas everbody!!
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After a couple of years of telling my parents that I will not celebrate Christmas by giving or receiving material stuff (the first year, I think I went so far as to use the word that begins with a "cr" and ends with an "ap"), this year my mother said to me, "I'm done with buying people stuff." Instead, she has decided to give maybe $15 - $20 for each person in our immediate family (~10) to the Smile Train Organization, which helps restore smiles to children who are born with and suffer from cleft lip and pallete in various countries around the world.
Since everyone's off work, we'll still get together for a good meal and game or movie night, but as she finally has acknowledged, "Enough with the stuff!"
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Eric, I say Amen to that. All, we will do is have a family get together for the meal. Being, His and My family do not believe like us. My husband took the initiative to tell his family not to buy and we were not either. Really truely since I belive like this I have lost the urge. I do think there is not anything wrong to have a meal with the ones we love when all are off work. Besides, we never know when we could loose a love one.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Besides, we never know when we could loose a love one.
Now, Marlene that is what I was going to say! Since we have spent so many hours praying and crying for our little grandson, and not knowing what we were going to be up against with him; EVERYDAY is a gift for us! Christmas? Thanksgiving? Birthdays? WHO CARES?? A day is a gift! A breath is a gift! We don't know what tomorrow brings. We are only promised this moment, we need to make the most of each moment. God only wants us to love and forgive and not judge, we don't have time for anything else! God gave us a grand gift with the result of the baby's tumor, so for us each day is a day of thanksgiving (and Christmas!)
Kathy :) :)