bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: dave on September 01, 2012, 08:10:29 PM
-
Just wondering(and it may be elementary) but when and how did the teaching get started, that when we die, they either go to heaven or hell?
I mean, is there some verse of scripture that says anything close or like that? Were verses just pressed together? Or just interpreted and accepted for comfort and hate?
How can something like that be made a teaching without verse and scripture? It just seems to bring comfort to some and sorrow and fear to others.
I know about Calvin, Edwards, Moody, and such, but just when and mostly HOW did such a teaching become such a powerful and accepted understanding, when The Bible and Jesus loudly proclaim love?
Thank you all
-
Maybe this is related to your question - but this is an exerpt from Ray's Paper, "The Christian Hell, is an Christian Hoax". He shows how the teaching got started which is from Egypt, the Mother of superstitions and religious doctrines of the afterlife.
THE COURT OF OSIRIS IN THE EGYPTIAN UNDERWORLD
"Before coming into the courtroom the dead person had to pass a labyrinth of gates and doors and answer questions correctly to pass through. The lion-god Aker let him through the last gate and he was facing the fourteen members of the jury in the Tribunal Hall. There he was allowed to speak about his behavior on Earth. (Shown in the upper left in the picture above). Then god Anubis took him into the courtroom presenting him the scale where his heart would be put in balance with the feather of the goddess M�at, patroness of truth and harmony. The procedure was recorded by Thoth - the god of writing and wisdom. Sometimes Thoth's animal (a baboon) was sitting on top of the scale ready to adjust the result using a sliding weight.
If the heart of the deceased wasn't too heavy with sins from his life on Earth, he went through and could continue his voyage to the afterlife and was granted a plot of land in the "Field of the Reeds". This was the paradise for the ancient Egyptians - to grow crops for eternity in a land that was the very image of the Nile Valley they just had left. If he failed the test on the other hand - his heart was immediately devoured by the beast Ammut sitting under the scale. In that case the dead faced the most horrible future imaginable for the Egyptians - he was denied an eternal life in the land in the West and his soul would be restless forever."
The above is a highly simplified explanation of the Egyptian Underworld. It was considerably more complex and complicated and convoluted and contradictory.
I have read whole books on the amazing complexity of the Egyptian underworld.
Suffice it to say that the Egyptians and the Greeks knew a hundred times more about their hell and judgment procedures than Christians know about theirs. The fundamentals of the Egyptian hereafter are identical to that of Christendom. Only the fanciful gods attending to the judgment of the dead differ from that of Christendom, however, the main concepts of what man is and what happens to him at death are virtually the same.
We see that the DEAD are STILL LIVING (Anything is possible in fables).
The dead Egyptians had IMMORTAL SOULS.
At the time of death, JUDGMENT took place immediately.
Good people were ushered into a place of HAPPINESS at death.
Bad people were: (a) Sentenced to ROAM AIMLESSLY, (b) were completely ANNIHILATED by being eaten by Ammut, or (c) they could be TORTURED as in fire.
Not one of these five aspects of the Egyptian Underworld has Scriptural backing, yet virtually every one of them has a place in Christian doctrine. Some will surely say: "Who would ever believe such absurd pagan nonsense?" Who? Millions and hundreds of millions and billions of Christians, that's who. Here are more proofs from history that the Christian hell was invented by the pagan Egyptians:
Saint Augustine from his writing, City of God:
"This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to DECEIVE THE PEOPLE in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves KNEW TO BE IDLE FABLES; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." (All CAPS emphasis is mine).
Do theologians believe that Saint Augustine lied? Or do they think he was miss-informed? Do they think he made this statement with absolutely nothing to back it up? For if Augustine's statement is true, then there is no Christian hell, for it is based on known deception on the part of the "princes" who conned the citizens into believing and fearing this monstrous lie. What do you think the two billion Christians will think and do when they find out that their leaders knew all along that the doctrine of Christian judgment is based on heathen lies straight out of Egypt?
*The Jews borrowed from the Pagans the doctrine of transmigration [reincarnation], with all its accompaniments of future retribution, and ENDLESS PUNISHMENT. And they abundantly justify the statement of Enfield, that 'the purity of the divine doctrine was corrupted among the Jews in Egypt, who, under the disguise of allegory, admitted doctrines NEVER DREAMED OF BY THEIR LAWGIVER [God through Moses] and prophets; and adopted a mystical interpretation of the law, which converted its plain meaning into a thousand IDLE FANCIES" (Doctrine of Eternal Punishment by Dr. Thomas B. Thayer. CAPS are mine).
*"Egypt has been called the 'Mother of Superstitions,' and her whole religious history shows the propriety of the appellation [her doctrines are provable superstitions]. Greeks and Romans, Lawgivers and Philosophers, acknowledge their indebtedness to her in this respect, and freely credit her with THE ORIGINAL INVENTION OF THE FABLES AND TERRORS OF THE INVISIBLE WORLD....", (Thayer, Chapt. 3, p. 4).
"It is plain enough, from their united testimony [that of the Greek writers, Herodotus, Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch, and others] , that the whole matter of judgment after death, the rewards of a good life, and the punishments of a bad life, with all the formal solemnities of trial and condemnation, ORIGINATED AND WAS PERFECTED AMONG THE EGYPTIANS, according to the peculiar character of the mythology. From them IT WAS BORROWED BY THE GREEKS, who made such change and additions as fitted the system to the genius and circumstances of that people." (Thayer, Chapt. 3, p. 4).
*"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account out ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they CONTRIVED TO BRING INTO THE POPULAR BELIEF THESE NOTIONS OF THE GODS, AND OF THE INTERNAL REGIONS." (Polybius, B. vi 56).
*"The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue � but this must be done by SUPERSTITION, OR THE FEAR of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, etc., are ALL FABLES as is also ALL ANCIENT THEOLOGY. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitudes." (Strabo, Geography, B. I).
*"For as we sometimes cure the body with unwholesome remedies, when such as are most wholesome produce no effect, so we restrain those minds with FALSE RELATIONS, which will not be persuaded by the truth. There is necessity, therefore, of instilling the dread of those foreign torments....[the word 'foreign' usually implied Egyptian]" (Timaeus Locrus, the Pythagorean).
Dr. Thayer gives us quotes (Ch. 3, p. 6) from following ancient philosophers:
Seneca--Roman stoic philosopher who lived at time of Christ: "Those things which make the internal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, etc., are ALL A FABLE with which the poets amuse themselves and by them agitate us with vain terrors."
Sextus Empiricus call the teachings, "poetic fables of hell."
Cicero - Roman statesman, orator, and philosopher call them, "silly absurdities and fables."
Truly, combinend with the fact, Scripture and Jesus speaks on Judgment from God - men couldnt help themselves sticking their hands in the cookie jar of translations and tweeking what they could. I praise God for L Ray Smith
Hope that Helped. If anything, read those 3 surrounding papers. Ray nails this idea
Eugene
-
Thanks I've read that, but mainly I was wondering, because I am somewhat sure that a good many on the forum has come out of some denomination that taught the teaching, and I was wondering if they had heard how it's put together, in the denominations understanding.
I mean there are so many TV evangelists(I use that term lightly) that comfort and bring sorrow by the teaching.
I know that the Pentecost and Baptist denomination thrive on the human emotion, of teaching how loved ones are damned to a hell if they never accepted Jesus, and that loved ones who die knowing Jesus are in heaven now. I know the Bible does not teach that, but they must use verses and scripture from the Bible to sway them into believing such comforting.
-
We heard this one quite a bit:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Of course, the Bible doesn't actually SAY that, not even in KJV english.
Another one..."Today thou shalt be with Me in paradise."
The 'go to heaven/hell' when you die thing I think was just pretty much 'assumed'. Even the 'resurrection' was taught as bodies rising and joining with spirits or souls, which always seemed like a DEMOTION to me, rather than something Paul describes as our great Hope. As an ex-southern baptist, that's about the best I can tell you.
I can only add, not all Baptists (and not even all southern baptists) believe the exact same thing. There are denominations of christendom that do teach the dead are in the grave awaiting resurrection. Some of them may be baptists.
-
Yes Dave I must agree, it is the "assuming" that makes the whole idea appealing and acceptable. Yet it is amazing to me, that other than the two examples you gave,(which are weak at most) they have no solid verse or scripture to explain why they believe.
I mean for such a belief, you would think that they would have in the Bible at least one verse, something Jesus or Paul said or wrote other than "absent from the body" when Paul was absent from the body and was still here on terra firma and not dead,(they can't even see that) and "paradise" when the word is only used 3 times, and is not explained just where paradise is.
Example...Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Those who must know, will not even take the time to tell folks it's a park.
Thanks my friend.
-
I know the Bible does not teach that, but they must use verses and scripture from the Bible to sway them into believing such comforting. ~Micah
They do not use scripture backup. This was answered in Eugene's reply: Not one of these five aspects of the Egyptian Underworld has Scriptural backing, yet virtually every one of them has a place in Christian DOCTRINE. ~Ray [emphasis mine]
From Definitions.net:
Doctrine(noun)
teaching, instruction
that which is taught, what is held, put forth AS TRUE [only, it's NOT true!] . . .
-
I'm sorry, Gina...but they DO use scripture to back up what isn't true. They use it very poorly, however--contradicting, misquoting, carnally understanding, etc. Many 'preachers' wouldn't know what the Egyptians believed, and if they did, they would see it as "wisdom". Or if they saw it as foolishness, it would be mostly in the details. "We" know better now...when people die, they go to heaven or Hell...if not now, eventually.
Here's some emails on the 'absent from the body/present with the Lord argument:
www.Bible-Truths.com/bible-truths.com/email16.htm#absent
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1736.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3202.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3138.0.html
And from the FAQ concerning 'today thou shalt be with me in paradise':
www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic%2c11614.0.html
-
That's not scripture, then, Dave. That's all I'm saying.
I'm out. But before I leave... he he, Jesus answered and said unto them, You do err, NOT knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
-
Understood.
-
Ironically, the 5 concepts from that Egypt story ALL can be pulled from the "Rich Man and Lazarus" Parable and it just caught my eye. I think this is one of the top things the church uses to scare people with hell.
We see that the DEAD are STILL LIVING (Anything is possible in fables). {...and it came to pass, that the beggar died...the rich man also died....and he CRIED and said... cool my tongue..." Luke 16:22, 24 - and continued talking....}
The dead Egyptians had IMMORTAL SOULS. {"...i am tormented in this flame..." Luke 16:24 - yet keeps talking...}
At the time of death, JUDGMENT took place immediately. {"...remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good thing, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." Luke 16:25}
Good people were ushered into a place of HAPPINESS at death. {"...the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom..." Luke 16:22}
Bad people were: (a) Sentenced to ROAM AIMLESSLY, (b) were completely ANNIHILATED by being eaten by Ammut, or (c) they could be TORTURED as in fire. {"and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments...I am tormented in this flame...lest they also come into this place of torment."}
So with that, can we really blame the church?? That parable just lays out the blueprint for the afterlife of the bible. I do remember one church using this parable to justify their teaching. besides the fact this is a PARABLE, they still dont even know the true use of a parable. ive also heard them connect "and the smoke of their torment (this was the rich man and any guilty sinner) ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day and night..." Revelation 14:11. Truly, i'm thankful that i finally read Ray's paper explaining the parable, even though its very lengthy -- that parable is the ammo for preachers of hell. and then they throw in, "and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt 25:46). I feel bad for the followers of these preachers; "blind leading the blind" -- it's sad. Sadly, they CAN use the bible, to their own pleasure as i just did-- THANK GOD FOR BIBLE-TRUTHS.COM!! It may take time, but Ray nails them all :). Obviously there are problems with the translations "ever and ever" and "eternal" for one and interpretations. May we all continue to grow in truth
Eugene
-
... back in. hehe.
If by blame the church you mean "judge," Eugene, then remember that judgment is on the house of God now. And judgment sets crooked things right.
When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. Isaiah 26:9
Know you not that we will judge angels? (... or messengers, but not messengers of God, IMHO).
Okay. Sorry. I'm done. :)
-
Lazarus and the Rich man... It is this powerful teaching that they believed that when one dies they will go either to heaven or hell.
Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable and we are very lucky that through Ray did reveal to us all believers the significant and hidden truth about this parable.
-
... back in. hehe.
If by blame the church you mean "judge," Eugene, then remember that judgment is on the house of God now. And judgment sets crooked things right.
When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. Isaiah 26:9
Know you not that we will judge angels? (... or messengers, but not messengers of God, IMHO).
Okay. Sorry. I'm done. :)
Gina I believe you spoke just what Christian preachers and teachers do, and that is they are judging, using human logic, common sense, and human emotions to comfort rather than speak the truth.
Joh 8:14 "Even if I am giving testimony about myself," replied Jesus, "my testimony is true; for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you know neither of these two things.
Joh 8:15 You judge according to appearances: I am judging no one.
And that very teaching that is not true, keeps those who accept it, in a fear of dying. Thanks
-
Oh the church has plenty of Bible verses to use to back up their doctrine of an hell as the punishment of the wicked. They take Bible translations as being the Word of God and not able to be corrupted with huge errors to the degree that it would mislead the majority... try to convince a devout church going Christian of that the whole church is decieved.
Anywhere that the Bible speaks of a place of eternal or everlasting punishment/damnation/destruction to them can only mean one thing... hell.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
There are quite a few place that the Bible speaks of unquenchable fire, tormented with fire and brimstone and fiery indignation. When these verses are presented as proof along with a colorfully descriptive sermon on what they say it means, yeah people believe it. Anyway who are they the question their god's chosen Representative? Jush try it and see how far you get.
Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Rev 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Mar 9:47-48 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Of course hearing these things are truth over and over with the Bible verses right there to prove it, is a form of brainwashing that really works. Not only do these people not have someone like Ray to point out all the Bible errors, they also are taught Satan uses someone like him to trick them, so they will go to hell. It's a very entrenched deception that can only be shattered at Christ's return.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
I can see and understand how they teach about a "hell" of everlasting torment, but where are the verses that say with all "their folksy and colorful descriptions" the proof that those who are "saved" go to heaven when they die?
I know that Luke 16 is their mainstay, but where are others?
-
Micah, there are none. That's what Ray already said. There are no scriptures to back up their false notions of an evil God who tortures people for ever and ever.
Bible verses? Sure! However, there is no scripture to backup their false claims. They can tempt people to believe their false claims using "scripture" and they can even deceive people, but I'll say it again:
This was answered in Eugene's reply: Not one of these five aspects of the Egyptian Underworld has Scriptural backing, yet virtually every one of them has a place in Christian DOCTRINE. ~Ray
The truth is never taught in the churches. Never. ... back in. hehe.
If by blame the church you mean "judge," Eugene, then remember that judgment is on the house of God now. And judgment sets crooked things right.
When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. Isaiah 26:9
Know you not that we will judge angels? (... or messengers, but not messengers of God, IMHO).
Okay. Sorry. I'm done. :)
Gina I believe you spoke just what Christian preachers and teachers do, and that is they are judging, using human logic, common sense, and human emotions to comfort rather than speak the truth.
Joh 8:14 "Even if I am giving testimony about myself," replied Jesus, "my testimony is true; for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you know neither of these two things.
Joh 8:15 You judge according to appearances: I am judging no one.
And that very teaching that is not true, keeps those who accept it, in a fear of dying. Thanks
Micah, I'm sorry. You keep looking for scripture backup to support the false doctrine of a "christian hell and afterlife of eternal torture." Why are you doing that? False workers don't use scripture. They ABUSE scripture, if anything, and select "bible" verses.
You're not going to find the scriptural support you are seeking, because there are no scriptures to support it.
-
Gina, Let's not argue over words. It's clear that "bible-verses" are used to support false doctrine. Much of what Ray wrote is in teaching what these bible-verses mean. So it's a valid question to ask what bible verses christian theology uses to teach that saved people go to heaven when they die.
Specifically what Ray said in the quote is "Not one of these five aspects of the Egyptian Underworld has Scriptural backing..." Theologians and preachers have not thrown away their bibles to teach Egyptian theology. I don't reckon anybody genuinely believes in Horus and company any more. These five aspects HAVE "biblical verse" backing in Christian theology.
That was the question. It's a good one. If it wasn't, there would be no B-T as there would be no need to 'come out of her, my people'.
-
I am an unfinished piece of clay, I do not even come close in understanding the Potter's reasons and wisdom as to why I am still here.
Yet in my heart I am disturbed as to why the teaching of going to heaven or hell when you die is so accepted by regular people who own and read their Bible's. The going to the "hell" they hear on TV and read in their Bible translation can easily be understood by the verses Kat gave.
That is disturbing as it is, to accept, want, and desire a human being to suffer like that, while they feel safe in their heaven thoughts and are grateful it is not them. The teaching does not and cannot reveal the Love of God.
So I was just wondering on what Bible grounds do they verify their heaven journey from the Bible. Is the teaching just formed from an opposite of damnation teaching and needs no sound doctrine?
-
Gina, Let's not argue over words. It's clear that "bible-verses" are used to support false doctrine. Much of what Ray wrote is in teaching what these bible-verses mean. So it's a valid question to ask what bible verses christian theology uses to teach that saved people go to heaven when they die.
Specifically what Ray said in the quote is "Not one of these five aspects of the Egyptian Underworld has Scriptural backing..." Theologians and preachers have not thrown away their bibles to teach Egyptian theology. I don't reckon anybody genuinely believes in Horus and company any more. These five aspects HAVE "biblical verse" backing in Christian theology.
That was the question. It's a good one. If it wasn't, there would be no B-T as there would be no need to 'come out of her, my people'.
You're saying I'm splitting hairs is what you're saying. Micah's asking what SCRIPTURE there is to SUPPORT the hell doctrine. And some of you are coming in back and saying -- Welllll duh yup--well let's see here, Micah, we got this scripture and we got that scripture. And so you may as well be saying -- Yep, there is scripture to support that doctrine. It totally astounds me! There is NOT ONE scripture to support the hell doctrine.
-
I've removed my comment upon further consideration.
-
I am an unfinished piece of clay, I do not even come close in understanding the Potter's reasons and wisdom as to why I am still here.
Yet in my heart I am disturbed as to why the teaching of going to heaven or hell when you die is so accepted by regular people who own and read their Bible's. The going to the "hell" they hear on TV and read in their Bible translation can easily be understood by the verses Kat gave.
That is disturbing as it is, to accept, want, and desire a human being to suffer like that, while they feel safe in their heaven thoughts and are grateful it is not them. The teaching does not and cannot reveal the Love of God.
So I was just wondering on what Bible grounds do they verify their heaven journey from the Bible. Is the teaching just formed from an opposite of damnation teaching and needs no sound doctrine?
Dear Micah:
Here is your answer:
2 Thes. 2:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all POWER and SIGNS and LYING wonders,
10 And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE THE TRUTH, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be condemned who believed not the truth, but had PLEASURE in unrighteousness.
Again:
And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should [ and I don't mean maybe] believe a lie: 2 Thes. 2:11
But WHO WILL BELIEVE OUR REPORT?
-
Actually Gina Ray himself always used what the church taught to refute what they believed. We are not promoting what they teach, just trying to answer a reasonable question that micah7:9 had and maybe others as well. The church uses their Bibles well to promote their beliefs and it is helpful to us sometimes to look at the verses they use, so to understand the deception better.
Here are a few verses that the church use to give there members hope for a heavenly home. All from the KJV.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Php 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
1Co 15:51-55 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
Mat 17:2-3 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Well that is some that they use and just think if these verses are presented in isolation (yes they take things out of context, imagine that) and a sermon built around them to prove it the way they see it. We are the very few blessed with having been shown the truth. They rest are deceived, the translations are misleading to a degree and it is intended to be that way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
I believe you spoke just what Christian preachers and teachers do, and that is they are judging, using human logic, common sense, and human emotions to comfort rather than speak the truth.
And you answered your question there too. They don't need SOUND doctrine when they have people who will listen to them but not hear what they're saying because (just like we did when we were duped into believing the doctrine before God open our eyes to the truth), they judge their teachers by their outward appearance. They use no common sense, logic, or sound reasoning. Instead they do what we did when we were in their shoes: they go off their human emotions (remember when we used to hate our enemies?) and find comfort in the "fact" (or more accurately -- "hope") that their enemies would be in a lot of agonizing pain. But like Eugene has quoted Ray elsewhere on another thread, they don't think at ALL of what atrocity they're ultimately taking a delight in. Of course there doesn't need to be "sound doctrine" supporting that deceit. By its very UNsound nature there canNOT be "sound" doctrine supporting it. How could there be? Sound doctrine wasn't designed to support things that are NOT sound. It'd be like having Jesus Christ (who is sound) dying to make sure the "hell" doctrine was "safe and sound" so that it, as a lie, would never be revealed for what it truly is. It would be like Jesus Christ suffering to make sure that everyone remained in mental anguish for all eternity. Your question just makes no sense. I'm sorry. I hope that I was of some assistance to you.
-
I can see and understand how they teach about a "hell" of everlasting torment, but where are the verses that say with all "their folksy and colorful descriptions" the proof that those who are "saved" go to heaven when they die?
I know that Luke 16 is their mainstay, but where are others?
That was Micah's question. The word "scripture" is not in there. Gina, you were right the first time. SCRIPTURE does not teach these things. I agree, and apparently Micah does too. But they do use 'verses'. And that is what Micah is asking, regardless of what you thought he/she was asking above. It's not splitting hairs, it's trying to answer the question that was actually asked.
God forbid we should use the forum to discuss the very things Ray DID teach. :D
-
HOW did such a teaching become such a powerful and accepted understanding,
they must use verses and scripture from the Bible
Hello micah7:9.
You wont find what your looking for because it does not exist.It is only in the minds of those who God is deceiving through an experience of evil that these evil thoughts are birthed. Any evil way of thinking, in any context, is how humanity is brought unto the destruction of the flesh,for the purpose of good,which is,a Spiritual conversion of the heart.
The thought of a eternal hell fire bath of literal fire consuming ones flesh or the polar opposite of a place somewhere out there in the universe on some rock in outer space consisting of an eternal fleshy pleasure palace of self indulgence,are both,one and the same thing...idols of the heart.
God will give you what your carnal heart desires in such a way that what the world thinks is true... really... is, nothing more than, a lying spirit, sent from God. The Scriptures are an enigma to those whom the Lord is hiding His truths from,until,the set time that He causes a change of heart and mind. When we are in babylon...we are in a state of spiritual confusion.Not until He removes our confusion will we be able to see His Truths concerning the Word.
A few verse to add to what Gina posted.
Zech 10:2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.
Eze 14:4 ...Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2Sa 22:26 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.
2Sa 22:27 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.
Peace...Mark
-
Thank you all.
Well I just have this hope ....2Ti 2:15 be diligent to present thyself approved to God--a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;
That the Lord will find a use for me to set free the true joy of the Lord in all his people and I reason that with the Lord's help foremost, and from others, such as on this forum, that the only in roads are to be able to approach those friends in the buildings and assemblies with words of love that will express their error in thinking. I believe the word repent means just that to have a changed mind.
I know that when the Lord began opening my eyes years ago and I was pulled out of all denominations trying many, that I was a pretty lonely guy with the truths He revealed and no one to share with but the Lord and with joy, until back in 2007 when the Lord led me or helped me find BT's.
I go to an assembly now, all good people who love Jesus, I sit and wonder and just hope with prayer that the Lord would make a way for me to be used as His hearts desire. So what ever verses that console them about heaven I would just like to study. Thanks again to all of you.
-
Micah,
I think that is an excellent prayer.
Thank you for your question.
Marky-Mark, may God bless you abundantly. :)
-
Just wondering(and it may be elementary) but when and how did the teaching get started, that when we die, they either go to heaven or hell?
I mean, is there some verse of scripture that says anything close or like that?
No not to us (which i believe you understand), but to those that are still being deceived yes of course. Here are a few verses I've found that they will often use to prove that they "go to Heaven".
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
-
Thanks still!
-
There are two correct answers when it comes to the meaning of backing of Scriptures..
in one point of view..... "there is a backing of Scriptures". Everybody knows that when Scriptures itself mentions hell, then it is up to the advantage of any sects to emphasise or explain that there is a hell based on their interpretation. But the question is, is the interpretation correct? no matter whether it is correct or not the point is there is a backing! There is a backing because they will insist up to death that it is the true interpretation, like there is hell.
On another view......."There is no backing of Scriptures". Again, when the Scriptures itself mentions hell, then it is up to the advantage of any sects to emphasize or to explain that there is a hell based on their interpretation. But the question is, Is the interpretation correct? NO, no! it is not correct, it is absolutely not correct, the interpretation is wrong, that is why there is no backing of the Scriptures!
No matter your point is, whether there is no backing or there is backing of Scriptures, what matters is that we know the truth because the Spirit is in us. God gave us partial installment to discern!
-
Santgem,
Micah asked over and over specifically for scriptural backing:
I mean, is there some verse of scripture that says anything close or like that?
How can something like that be made a teaching without verse and scripture?
, but they must use verses and scripture from the Bible to sway them into believing such comforting.
And at one point he even said, "there can't be scriptural backing,"
they have no solid verse or scripture to explain why they believe.
And then Micah goes on to ask again and again for scriptural backing:
I can see and understand how they teach about a "hell" of everlasting torment, but where are the verses that say with all "their folksy and colorful descriptions" the proof that those who are "saved" go to heaven when they die? I know that Luke 16 is their mainstay, but where are others?
So I was just wondering on what Bible grounds do they verify their heaven journey from the Bible. Is the teaching just formed from an opposite of damnation teaching and needs no sound doctrine?
There are most certainly not two correct answers diametrically opposed. There is only one correct answer: there is no scriptural backing for the doctrine of hell (or of their "heaven").
I see what you're saying -- it just doesn't make any sense. Just wanted to clear that up. :)
-
Okay NOW I understand. I do. But all in all - it can be "scriptural" backing to that thought hell if you don't know how to INTERPRET the scriptures. Truly, words like "hades", "Gehenna fire", "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.", "Sheol" are obscure. As ray said, there are theologians are who are fluent in Greek and Hebrew who have NO clue what the gospel. And they use many scriptures to back up the claims - even justifying "Aoinian/eternal" "Gehenna". Truly, as Peter said
2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the SCRIPTURES.
So Scriptures, not just bible verses, can be twisted by all the major theologians and teachers of today's christianity. But once taught the true meaning of words, getting rid of heresies of Religions of egypt and Greek, coming out of the worlds wisdom and thinking of "Free Will" and good vs evil - then we can rightly divide the Word of scripture
Eugene
-
I think the question was answered. The rest is just...not sure what it is, but it's 'preaching to the choir', if nothing else. Let's move on.