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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on August 02, 2007, 04:21:01 PM
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Hello Folks,
I was wondering if anyone here could provide some insight on this question.
What doctrines do the present day churches have right? Any denomination, any doctrine.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi Joe. Seems to me that they have alot right, but nothing completely right. Example: Christ was the Son of God, shed His blood for the sins of the world. This is true and they believe it, or think the do!! However, just how true this is and just how this will be done they cannot see. If the denominations are in fact the CALLED, they have been givin some Truth, a little Light. This seperated them from the "unbelieveing sea of humanity". If in fact the CHOSEN are called out from the CALLED, then it stands to reason that the CHOSEN has been givin more, Truth, more Light. I think this process of being CALLED and CHOSEN continues as we are FAITHFUL. DO I HAVE THIS RIGHT?? ;)
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Hi Joe. Seems to me that they have alot right, but nothing completely right. Example: Christ was the Son of God, shed His blood for the sins of the world. This is true and they believe it, or think the do!! However, just how true this is and just how this will be done they cannot see. If the denominations are in fact the CALLED, they have been givin some Truth, a little Light. This seperated them from the "unbelieveing sea of humanity". If in fact the CHOSEN are called out from the CALLED, then it stands to reason that the CHOSEN has been givin more, Truth, more Light. I think this process of being CALLED and CHOSEN continues as we are FAITHFUL. DO I HAVE THIS RIGHT?? ;)
Hi sasscell,
They say He shed His blood for the sins of the world but apparently they also believe that it was not quite good enough because there are many who will not be covered and that are destined for eternal hell or maybe annihilation (if they are lucky).
Yes, they (the called) have the reflected altered light (symbolically) of the moon as the chosen have (symbolically) the light of the sun.
Thanks for the reply.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Do JW's believe "death is sleep"? That comes to mind.
Mark
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Hey Joe,
Good post to get me thinking about this. Thanks for that.
I agree that there were a few things they got right in what I was taught as a catholic. However, most everything was clouded over by unscriptural nonsense. I didn't realize most of it was unscriptural even when we were studying the bible in parochial high school. Things like mortal and venial sin come to mind as the most obvious back then. We were taught about a loving God but eternal torment seemed illogical to me if He were a truly loving God. However, when all you have is the KJV bible, it does appear to be scriptural. I could never get a good answer to how God could stand hear the screams of agony of His children forever and ever? It just seem to me that a father couldn't bear it non stop
If it hadn't been for the roman catholic church, we might not have much more than the OT to work with as a single source of scripture for our "bible". So there has been some benefit to the spread of belief in Christ, regardless of false doctrine spewed out.
Anyhow, what I took away from churchiana, as a few are calling it, is Christ's doctrine of love. His two mega commandments to love God with our whole heart and soul and to love our neighbor. These two commandments seem to encapsulate all ten from the OT.
I may be wrong, but if we try our best to follow those commandments, nothing else really matters ultimately. I believe that no other truths in the bible could have a more profound effect on our journey to Him than following those commands. The rest of the truths found in the bible are just so much gravy to me.
However, because I hope I never get egotistical and arrogant enough to believe I am an elect, I probably don't know any better. I have a long way to go as you can see.
be blessed
feat
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Great thread Joe,
I like the analogy of the sun and moon.
It is amazing that the church (Bablyon) is the place to learn about God, but you must leave and go into the wilderness to experience and come to know God.
They are worshipping "another Jesus". It cannot be the true Jesus when you believe that the Father of Jesus and us is going to torture you in hell for an eternity.
God opens the elects eyes to the truth, but the experience is that you come to love Him so much you realize that what is said in the KJV cannot be right. He gives you a heart to seek further to find out the truth because when you spend a little time analyzing what the church says you cannot connect a single dot.
And it is wonderful that God causes you to do everything you do, but still it is through the foolishness of preaching that one is dragged to the truth.
How could you love a grandfather that was actually so vicious, vendictive, and unforgiving?
Sorry for the rambling, but I am actually talking about both of your last 2 threads.
CIY
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Hello Folks,
I was wondering if anyone here could provide some insight on this question.
What doctrines do the present day churches have right? Any denomination, any doctrine.
His Peace to you,
Joe
What do the Denominations have right?
NOTHING!
Does that answer your question?
And I stand by my statement. Orthodox Christianity does not have one doctrine right.
Why they don't even believe Jesus died for our sins since they don't even believe he actually died.
They think he went into this {non-existent} "Hell" and preached unto previously perished souls..etc...
therefore not dead, but alive in another realm, for our sins? What? I thought he died for our sins, not traveled to another realm for our sins?
-Sorin
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I had been "saved" for a coupleof weeks when I went to a Lutheran Chapel at U. of M. I didn't know where to go. Anyway, the pastor said, picture Jesus sitting in this chair, holding his arms out and you are about 3 years old and climb on his lap and let Him hug you!
As sappy as that sounds I did imagine that and I swear I felt warmth/love/acceptance whatever spill all over me. I couldn't wait to get home and read the Bible- I wanted to know Him intimately- I wanted to Love Him.
I started looking for Christians that were like that! So early on I left what I considered dead/cold places and searched for the on fire people- those that LOVED His Word and LOVED Him.
So even tho places/churches/denom. don't have it right, God reaches down and helps us where we are at. My heart/soul ached to know Him. Thats all I thought or did for years. Well, that wore off after the kids arrived (no time). Then guess when it came back??????
When I was dragged to BT :) ;D :D
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Gena
I speak for myself when i say, i would not want it any other way than God draggin you ((GENA )) here.
You are a God send((no pun intended))
God bless
Rodger
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Hello Folks,
I was wondering if anyone here could provide some insight on this question.
What doctrines do the present day churches have right? Any denomination, any doctrine.
His Peace to you,
Joe
The present day churches (denomintaion) have right for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. (2Co 11:13).
Or am I misunderstood?
Brett :D
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What was the question? It must be "what do the hoards of Christian denominations think they believe, which is scriptural".
1. They think they believe that God is love.
2. They think they believe that God created all that there is.
3. They think they believe that Christ is the Son of God.
4. They think they believe that Christ died to save mankind.
5. They think they believe in the reserection of Christ.
6. They think they believe that their ansesters are really dead.
7. They think they believe that there is only one God.
8. They think they believe that we will have spiritual bodies in the next life.
9. They think they believe that the last will be first and the first will be last.
10. They think they believe that the firstfruits will be the first to inherit incorruption.
11. They think they believe that the New Covenant is spiritually superior to the Old
Covenant laws.
12. They think they believe in the many called and few chosen truth.
But what do the hoards of Christian denominations really believe?
1. They believe that God will throw most of illinformed humanity in to a literal hell hole of torture and roast their physical bodies with regenerating nervous systems for all eternity.
2. They believe that God created all of the good things but messed up when He created His favorite cherub, Lucifer, who rebelled and has been screwing up God's plan of perfect righteous lives of everyone sense.
3. They believe that God is a trinity of three persons; Father, Son and holy ghost (I refuse to capitalize holy ghost).
4. They believe that Christ died to save only those that believe in Him but the rest will be, you know, refer to #1. Oh, some think Christ spent three days in hell preaching to the lost (I guess to remind them that they will be there forever).
5. Most don't believe that Christ ever died. Look up.
6. Most believe their ancesters went either to heaven or to hell immediately at death. They know where their nice great grandmother is and they speculate where their drunk fal mouthed uncle is, who died in a car wreck.
7. As mentioned above, they believe that God is in three persons.
8. They believe that in their next life (in heaven) they will be able to stuff their physical faces with the greatest food, will be able to relax in their mansion, and watch their favorite program "Monday Night Hell Burning" of their enemies on the real "trinity broadcast network".
9. They believe that the last will be the only and the first will be screwed eternally.
10. They believe that the firstfruits will be the only fruits.
11. They believe in all kinds of physical rituals such as a day of rest, physical babtism, tithing, senseless ramblings, and idolatry which is also forbidden in the Old Covenant.
12. They believe that billions will go to heaven immediately at death or at the very least, billions of fellow churchians will be in the first resurection.
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Hi All,
When I was a member of the WWCG (25 years) they taught that EVERY church denomination had some truth "here a little, there a little" and that was the way Satan worked in this world. Now, I am not so sure that is correct. True, God was with me when I attended the worldly church and I did learn many things that became part of the foundation for my beliefs now, maybe just from the stand point that I have been in a Babylon church and have come out of the lies into the truth (I have a comparison). So, maybe the world's churches don't have any doctrines right, but on the other hand most do read from the same bible and no matter where your physical body is sitting at the moment (church) and regardless of what is being taught from the pulpit...isn't it possible to learn truth even in a church that is speaking lies (to those that God is calling)???? Guess I side tracked the question...Boy, I sure hope this makes sense.
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Hello Folks,
I was wondering if anyone here could provide some insight on this question.
What doctrines do the present day churches have right? Any denomination, any doctrine.
His Peace to you,
Joe
Hi Joe,
How about...."In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
I have been to many churches, but never have I heard one say that this is not true. Not saying that some don't though :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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isn't it possible to learn truth even in a church that is speaking lies (to those that God is calling)???? Guess I side tracked the question...Boy, I sure hope this makes sense.
I follow you Sue Ann, how can one know what it is to be cold, unless one has experienced warmth first. Although it is God's Spirit that is teaching you and not the Church.
Well that's how I see it :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the great responses!
Darren, in regard to your question "In the Beginning God created...."
That is Genesis 1:1, sure they quote some scriptures but even in this they misinterpret it, most teach Jehovah created everything but do not teach that Jehovah is Jesus Christ they teach God the Father is Jehovah.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The following verses are also quoted, but do they really teach it properly or believe it?
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi All,
When I was a member of the WWCG (25 years) they taught that EVERY church denomination had some truth "here a little, there a little" and that was the way Satan worked in this world. Now, I am not so sure that is correct. True, God was with me when I attended the worldly church and I did learn many things that became part of the foundation for my beliefs now, maybe just from the stand point that I have been in a Babylon church and have come out of the lies into the truth (I have a comparison). So, maybe the world's churches don't have any doctrines right, but on the other hand most do read from the same bible and no matter where your physical body is sitting at the moment (church) and regardless of what is being taught from the pulpit...isn't it possible to learn truth even in a church that is speaking lies (to those that God is calling)???? Guess I side tracked the question...Boy, I sure hope this makes sense.
Hi Sue Ann,
The churches (and their teachings) are most definitely the conduit through which the elect come through, they are the skimmed milk of the Word and those who hunger for meatier spiritual food come out and seek His Truth diligently through the Spirit of Christ.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
We should not be too harsh on the churches as they are serving the purpose God intended for them, it is up to us (who have been called out) to;
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Darren,
Thanks for filling in the spaces for me...I know you are right, it is God's spirit that guides us and leads us no matter where we are.
I was thinking about the fact that in all of the Babylon churches, they all teach lies, but they still have the bible right there in front of them, even if the truth is hidden to them. The very source of truth is like a priceless jewel in their midst, and no one can see it, unless God opens their eyes.
Sue Ann
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Hello Folks,
I was wondering if anyone here could provide some insight on this question.
What doctrines do the present day churches have right? Any denomination, any doctrine.
His Peace to you,
Joe
Hi Joe,
How about...."In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
I have been to many churches, but never have I heard one say that this is not true. Not saying that some don't though :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
No. In the beginning God, the Son, and the holy spirit created the heaven and the earth. Then they made a nice, obediant little cherub and they named him Lucifer.
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Why thank you kindly Rodger. Right back at ya!! :D ;)
Musicman, very cool post.
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This post got me thinking about the role of the Church (denominations) in God's plan.Is there any member of the forum who have discovered Christ through the teaching of Ray without a prior denomination experience? It will be interesting to know.
It seems a necessary step, in God's plan, that we all go through the experience of denomination in order to become true sons of the Father. Therefore there must be some truths dispense there. In my personal experience, I have been thoughts some truths while attending Church that Ray have confirmed.
I think there are some leaders of the denominations who are purposefully deceived by God himself in the grand scheme of things. But, there are some who have chosen deliberately to hide the truth from their congregation because of their pursuit of easy gain yet all is of God.
So as there is time for everything under the sun, this the appointed time for God himself to expose them and call out the chosen from their midst.
May be attending babylon before discovering the truth and being called out of her is a necessary step of suffering in order to learn obedience.
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the great responses!
Darren, in regard to your question "In the Beginning God created...."
That is Genesis 1:1, sure they quote some scriptures but even in this they misinterpret it, most teach Jehovah created everything but do not teach that Jehovah is Jesus Christ they teach God the Father is Jehovah.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The following verses are also quoted, but do they really teach it properly or believe it?
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
His Peace to you,
Joe
Hi Joe, I agree with you in what they teach is not always what they know. I used this particular reference because during my time as a Presbyterian Bible study we were studying Colossians, and came across Col 1:16
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
There was no skirting around this one, that Christ was in fact God and was the God talked about in Genesis. But of course they never made the connection. For that matter neither did I until I read Ray's paper and immediately seen the truth for what it was. Is some truth better than no truth. Sometimes the answer appears to be yes. God does indeed work according to his understanding and not ours.
Love to you Christ,
Darren
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May be attending babylon before discovering the truth and being called out of her is a necessary step of suffering in order to learn obedience.
Absolutely true!
But when we are called out and see it for what it is, we must stay out, this is not an ambiguous statement;
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Therefore there must be some truths dispense there. In my personal experience, I have been thoughts some truths while attending Church that Ray have confirmed.
Hi Prosizz,
Please do not think this is nitpicking but what exactly are these truths you speak of?
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi Everyone,
I have to be honest here and say I thought this would be a more vibrant topic, oh well.....
Anyone want to comment on what the churches might say about these verses in light of the fact they (mainstream christianity) teaches man was created perfect?
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
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I have a question based on the question. Who is Christ. Paul the apostle said in 1 Corinthians 1:13 - Is Christ divided? I don't think so. He said in1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.I believe the true church is an invisible body comprised of lively stones (1 Peter 2:5) connected through the Holy Ghost. As lively stones, we don't have a denomination, we have a head. Colossians 1:18 - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. This is why we don't fit into Babylon. Christ didn't and doesn't...
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I have a question based on the question. Who is Christ. Paul the apostle said in 1 Corinthians 1:13 - Is Christ divided? I don't think so. He said in1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.I believe the true church is an invisible body comprised of lively stones (1 Peter 2:5) connected through the Holy Ghost. As lively stones, we don't have a denomination, we have a head. Colossians 1:18 - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. This is why we don't fit into Babylon. Christ didn't and doesn't...
Just to add, i don't think denomination has nothing right. How can you without the Head and His SPIRIT?
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While in the WWCG I learned that the immortality of the soul was a lie.
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Great post(s) Bradigans! Thank you.
Hi Snowfire,
The Seventh Day Adventists also teach that the soul is not immortal and just like the WWCG they believe annihilation is the destiny of those poor souls not in the Lamb's Book of Life.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Joe
We join the church for her truths, we leave the church for her lies.
There are many truths the Southern baptists have right-
We are created beings.
Our creator loves us and wants what is best for us.
God's ways are better than our ways.
The scriptures are God's word to man and are inerrant infallible and inspired
What is in the heart is what really matters and is reflected in action
Forgiveness of sins.
Now we see through a mirror darkly.
The ten commandments are a guide for good living
Priesthood of the believer
Then they miss on The sovereignity of God, free will, heaven, hell, ressurection, trinity, rapture, death, judgment,spirituality, new covenant, kingdom of god.
I am so glad Ray has enabled me to see so much so clearly.
Askseeknock
Charles O
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Hi Joe,
I just bought a new copy of the KJV. In the back is a section called "The ABCs of Salvation, some basic truths of the Christian faith as found in the Bible."
Here is what they say:
A. ALL people are sinners. Romans 3:23 "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
B. God LOVES sinners and WANTS TO save them. John 3:16
C. NOTHING is impossible with God. Luke 1:37 "for with God nothing shall be
impossible."
D. God has MERCY on sinners. Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them
ALL in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL."
E. Jesus has gained VICTOR OVER DEATH. 1 Cor 15:54 "So when this
corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall
have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
ALL wonderful truths with scriptures to support the truths.
BUT, then what do they conclude?
F. HELL and punishment await unbelievers. 2Thess 1:8,9 "In flaming fire
taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the
gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall be punished with EVERLASTING
DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the power of His
glory."
What happened to God's love and mercy and the fact that everything is possible for Him? Where is the victory over death if billions of people are in "hell" being kept alive to be tortured forever?? ???
They've got the scriptures, they even teach the scriptures, but they don't
BELIEVE the scriptures.
Methinks they are confused! ??? ??? ???
Christian love,
Cindy
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Joe (Your comments are in bold, mine blue, the Lord's red)
We join the church for her truths, we leave the church for her lies.
There are many truths the Southern baptists have right-
We are created beings. (We are in the process of being created in His image, we are not there yet.)
Our creator loves us and wants what is best for us. (He will burn many in an eternal hell hole for eternity)
God's ways are better than our ways. (Who among us would burn, torture people forever because they did not know our name?)
The scriptures are God's word to man and are inerrant infallible and inspired (How about this verse, I can provide scores more as to God's will to save all, do they believe this? Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.)
What is in the heart is what really matters and is reflected in action (Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?)
Forgiveness of sins. (Eternal hell?)
Now we see through a mirror darkly. (I think you mean 1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Sure they quote some verses but what do they say this really means? You need a preacher in a pulpit teaching man made doctrines such as the 2 compartments of Hell?)
The ten commandments are a guide for good living (Since the laws of almost every nation are based on these commandments they have a lot of company but what is the spiritual lesson they teach here? Do they truly love their brothers or do they promote war and nationalism right within their doors? 1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
They pay lip service to many verses but the teachings are diametrically opposed to the spiritual lesson Christ and the apostles (through His Spirit) taught.)
Priesthood of the believer (The Kings and Priests spoken of (the elect) are in the age to come not in this present age; 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:)
Then they miss on The sovereignity of God, free will, heaven, hell, ressurection, trinity, rapture, death, judgment,spirituality, new covenant, kingdom of god.
I could not agree more!
But they really do not get anything right it is all tainted, reflected light filtered through the doctrines of men.
I am so glad Ray has enabled me to see so much so clearly.
Amen Brother!
Askseeknock
Charles O
His Peace to you Charles,
Joe
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Hello Everyone...
Joe,
I can only say this for the two churches I was a part of before I really left Babylon: They were both "Word Of Faith" churches, influenced heavily by Fred Price and Oral Roberts. Both pastors (one being a close friend) were exemplary when it came to integrity and teaching practical things about family, marriages and relationships. Neither of these guys spoke of money as do a lot of pastors in their "circle." Nevertheless, I couldn't sit in one of their services comfortably now, even if I was in a "Lazy-Boy." They both would take scripture out of context like taking a piece of a puzzle, putting it on a table, and then saying "It's completed!" I would always scratch my head at some of their teachings, but then conclude: "He's the pastor...he must know what he's talking about."
James
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Cindy,
Yes! You nailed it Sister! They will quote wonderful beautiful scriptures and turn God into a weak, vengeful, unforgiving tyrant who cannot even fulfil His own will, He creates perfect beings who turn around and rebel against Him and gets caught off guard requiring a "plan B."
You recognized this perfectly, they will say one thing about how wonderful and loving He is and in the very next breath they will say the exact opposite.
It is amazing, thank God for opening our eyes!
His Peace and Wisdom to you Cindy,
Joe
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Oh, I want to add this:
Neither of these pastors speak about "hell." They would only give an "altar" call asking: "If you died right now, would you go to heaven?" Then: "Have you been baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in 'other' tongues?"
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Hello Everyone...
Joe,
I can only say this for the two churches I was a part of before I really left Babylon: They were both "Word Of Faith" churches, influenced heavily by Fred Price and Oral Roberts. Both pastors (one being a close friend) were exemplary when it came to integrity and teaching practical things about family, marriages and relationships. Neither of these guys spoke of money as do a lot of pastors in their "circle." Nevertheless, I couldn't sit in one of their services comfortably now, even if I was in a "Lazy-Boy." They both would take scripture out of context like taking a piece of a puzzle, putting it on a table, and then saying "It's completed!" I would always scratch my head at some of their teachings, but then conclude: "He's the pastor...he must know what he's talking about."
James
Hi James,
That is what they count on, the sheep blindly following their blind guides. I have seen blatent misrepresentations by the TV preachers and in the pulpit, these preachers count on the majority to consign the bible and it's scriptures to the back of the bus as they present the man made doctrines as divine.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Great post(s) Bradigans! Thank you.
Hi Snowfire,
The Seventh Day Adventists also teach that the soul is not immortal and just like the WWCG they believe annihilation is the destiny of those poor souls not in the Lamb's Book of Life.
His Peace to you,
Joe
We know the truth that the soul is not immortal, so where did the Seventh Day Adventists get the truth that the soul is not immortal. I think what we are establishing here is that even Satin knows the scriptures and will decieve (the many) people by it.
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Hello Snowfire,
All the denominations (and non denominations) have bits of truth but always seem to mix in the man made stuff right along with them, I cannot see one undefiled "truth" from any of the established churches. Even the most basic tenet of Christianity "Jesus died for our sins" is polluted by eternal torment or even annihilation for some if not most.
Yes, the Adventists understand the soul is not immortal but they also see it as being extinguished if a person is not a member in good standing of the Adventists at their death. They believe they are the 144,000 in Revelation and that the majority of creation will be permanently destroyed.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hey Joe
Great thread....I can say from my 50 yrs in, and out of church i was taught some half truths, and a lot of out right lies, but i do want to say one thing about the church, without getting this thread off topic, they are following Gods plan to a tee, but through the scriptures, and Rays teachings i am beginning to see, that His plan for the called, and His plan for the called out ones ,are as different, as night, and day..hence..
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Ron
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most of my time has been spent away from the denomiational churches. After Jon died I sat and listen to a really good music minstry for 2 years. What the preacher said I did not hear. earlier I was born again in a small in time fellowship that had a progressive Word of God with alot of Rays teaching. it dissolved. Out of the 8 groups I went to 5 dissolved. I found in churches, not small groups, there were groupies and like high school a varied of activities going on. Some people really loved God and wanted the true, others had problems, others wanted to get married, others wanted to be important some liked alot of social activities ect... It was like church was just about life. I had so much to do I could not stay and I need to understand more of the Word of God. I did meet some very wonderful people and I found out I could not could not make any mistakes there nor talk about my past nor walk in my gifts The Lord gave me. In church I had to shut up. sit down and follow their rules which to me wasn't going to happen Being from a household of mental illness I don't like crazy. peggy
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Hi Ron,
Thanks for your response, I agree that the churches do have a purpose and it is not my intention to bash the people who are still walking in the moonlight. Once the Lord begins to open our eyes to His real plan and purpose for His creation why would we continue to expose ourselves to the half truths and outright lies that are so predominate there?
The reason I started this thread and the "Neighborhood Watch" topic was that when the Lord calls us out of Babylon sharing His sacred secrets with us in regard to the infinite Love which is God, how could we sit silent as He is being portrayed in the pulpit as impotent, mean, cruel, unforgiving, a torturer of children and the elderly, and unable to create perfection even as He wills it. I could not bear hearing untruths about my family and friends week after week, how could one listen to these things about our Lord and Saviour?
Hello Peggy,
I do believe that you are right on target with your observations, this is what I remembered about the Catholic churches I attended as a youth, the SDA church for the couple years I was there and especially the Baptist church I attended at my wife's prompting a little over 2 years ago.
At that time she had attended this church (alone) for maybe 3 years, she was in the choir and a couple women's study groups and volunteered for many of the functions, she would drag me over there for some of the activities but I always couldn't wait to get away.
About a week or two before I stumbled onto Bible Truths I had finally given in to her requests to start attending with her, I would just sit and read my bible through the little skits, talent shows, announcements, and requests for $$$ to fund some pet project or other. I had noticed that in this approximate hour at the church about 6 to 8 minutes was actually devoted to His Word, maybe that was the pastor's way of tithing the church's time to God. ::)
I think it was my 4th or 5th visit to this church when the 2 compartments of hell business came up, I had been consuming Ray's papers like a man might consume water after spending a few dry days in the desert, anyway my groans could be heard 5 or 6 pews away as this heresy was being spoken. I was muttering "chapter and verse please?" My wife was elbowing me in the ribs as I continued to moan and ask questions out loud, I sure got an earful in the parking lot as my wife was REALLY UPSET with my behaviour, I told her, "then I imagine you won't mind the fact that I am never going back."
Needless to say she was not overly enthusiastic about Bible Truths and L. Ray Smith! ;)
My wife bemoaned the fact that it took her years to get me to attend with her and it took Bible Truths a week or two to get me back out. :D
Well, now my wife no longer attends, the hypocrisy, the cliques, the insatiable money demands (or offerings if you prefer) that were asked for in public to help shame the members into giving over and above the tithes. Although she reads her bible daily and we do discuss many things she still is not convinced about the Truths I have come to embrace. God has a plan for her and in His time it will be done.
Sorry for getting a bit long winded here....
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joe
You are rolling!
Thanks for the time and effort of a great reply.
I hope to meet you in November at Mobile.
Askseeknock
Charles O
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;D
Count on it, I will be there!
Thank you Charles,
Joe
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Thank you very much for this thread! :) You all have answered some of the questions that I just asked in an above post about "feeling guilty today". Thanks and God Bless. Great posts. Jim
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My wife bemoaned the fact that it took her years to get me to attend with her and it took Bible Truths a week or two to get me back out. :D
Joe,
This gave me my good laugh for the day! Thanks!!!!
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Hi Joe,
John 6:35: Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty".
John 7:38: Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.
I think that there is no real Truth in the Church:
For, lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is turning aside from Jerusalem [the Church], And from Judah, stay and staff, Every stay of bread, and every stay of water. Isaiah 3:1
All of the [spiritual] bread and water is taken from the Church. This Bread and Water is Christ, and Christ said I am the way and the TRUTH and the life. John 14:6
The righteous, however, shall have their fill of bread and water:
Isaiah 33:
14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
This is how I see these verses. I'm open to any correction if I'm incorrect...I'm still pretty new at seeing the "spiritual" in things, so I may be wrong. :)
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well Joe when the Lord gives you the bread of life its' soooo hard to turn from it especially if you are hungery which He makes sure we are most the time. I just wonder if we will look back on what we say here and think how elementary this was. Line upon line my Jesus is changing me. peggy
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There is somthing that needs to be said here and not over look. These teaching are not Rays' Teaching but the Truth from the anointing of the Holy Spirit. I have learn these teaching from the Holy Spirit by reading the Word and minstry before I read them at L. Ray Smith web site and I have heard some of them from other chrisitian ministy where I live in Sarasota Florida. I can give you names of people who know these truths they just didn't put them on the web. My adoptd Dad, who the Lord gave to me, in 1972, knew some of these truths and the last days of his life in 2002 was so beautifully speaking about how we can not grow in Jesus unless the Lord allows it and other things too. I believe Ray would not be offended by me saying this because He talks about read and studing the Word of God with the anointing. I mean no offense. In Jesus Peggy
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I would like to say something else here I am not proselyting another group of people. There is no other group nor any one else that is teaching like what I see and know here. On New years' day 2007 I was led here to grow and learn in the Holy Spirit Praise God peggy
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Thanks Peggy,
4 sure 4 sure, Thank GOD!!!!!!!!
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Great thread, Joe!
Coming in so late all I can do is recap... first paraphrasing your points...
The churches are the skimmed milk of the Word :D and those who hunger for meatier spiritual food come out and seek His truth diligently [if I may add, as guided BY Him.] Further... through His spirit, the churches are serving the purpose(s) God has intended for them. Ho! Plan of God!
Now paraphrasing some grand thoughts from a few others...
And yes CIY, 'it IS amazing that the church [Babylon] IS the place TO LEARN ABOUT GOD... and you must leave and go into the wilderness to experience and come to know God.' Further... 'And it is wonderful that God CAUSES you to do everything you do but still, it is through the foolishness of preaching that one is dragged to the truth.' Great points.
Cindy I usually think of them as 'blinded' rather than 'confused,' or as Peggy said... "the truth is hidden from them."
Rom 11: 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [KJV]
This is one of those verses where it is really fun to check all the different translations.... [check out more than these]
[Rotherham's]... For God hath shut up ALL together, in a refusal to yield...
[CLNT]... For God locks up ALL together in stubbornness...
[Online Greek-English Interlinear]... [for] together locks the God THE ALL into unpersuadableness...
[Emphatic Diaglott]... Shut up for the God THE ALL for disobedience...
The only parting thoughts of my own are that YET they STILL want to build MORE CHURCHES... more church buildings, more churches... AS IF ONE MORE church building IS GOING TO HELP THE SITUATION that is quite obviously "waxing worse"... and worse...
Oh Happy Day, when He wash our tears away,
Janice
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Janice
Your verses made me curious so I checked out some other translations. The New Living tells it all and finishes up so clearly showing that God is in control and no free will.
30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. 31 Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share[k] in God’s mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
33 Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
34 For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to give him advice?[l]
35 And who has given him so much
that he needs to pay it back?[m]
36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Romans 11:30-36
CIY
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Oh I love that word "UNPERSUADABLENESS". That hits it spot on.
Romans 11 is awesome. He, GOD, is the one who does it! Period. How is this hidden :D?
I know I know, but still!!!! ;) :D
Great thread folks.
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One more from the Message. I love the way this translates the last few verses. Gives it all to God.
30 -32There was a time not so long ago when you were on the outs with God. But then the Jews slammed the door on him and things opened up for you. Now they are on the outs. But with the door held wide open for you, they have a way back in. In one way or another, God makes sure that we all experience what it means to be outside so that he can personally open the door and welcome us back in.
33 -36Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It's way over our heads. We'll never figure it out.
Is there anyone around who can explain God?
Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do?
Anyone who has done him such a huge favor
that God has to ask his advice?
Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him.
Always glory! Always praise!
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Romans 11:30-36
I am through now, but those verses just really got to me.
CIY
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CIY,
That is a great translation. I'm going to go out and get me one of those.
It feels so intimate and personal.
Ursula
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Here's a verse that also helps to edify what RJ/Ron said that "...they are following God's plan to a tee."
And CIY... it would be great if you could present this verse [or verse set] from The Message as well... thanks. I too am going to have to buy it. :)
1Pet 2: 7-8 To you then, who are believing, is the honor, yet to the unbelieving: "A Stone which is rejected by the builders, this came to be for the head of the corner," and a stumbling stone and a snare rock; who are stumbling also at the word, being stubborn, to which THEY WERE APPOINTED also. [CLNT]
Luv, Janice
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Here it is in the Message. I am not pushing the Message bible but many times the translation is just so easy and seems to translate the an overall meaning.
It is sometimes hard to get the verse divisions so here is 1 Peter 2:4-10.
4 -8Welcome to the living Stone, the source of life. The workmen took one look and threw it out; God set it in the place of honor. Present yourselves as building stones for the construction of a sanctuary vibrant with life, in which you'll serve as holy priests offering Christ-approved lives up to God. The Scriptures provide precedent:
Look! I'm setting a stone in Zion,
a cornerstone in the place of honor.
Whoever trusts in this stone as a foundation
will never have cause to regret it. To you who trust him, he's a Stone to be proud of, but to those who refuse to trust him,
The stone the workmen threw out
is now the chief foundation stone. For the untrusting it's
.. . a stone to trip over,
a boulder blocking the way. They trip and fall because they refuse to obey, just as predicted.
9 -10But you are the ones chosen by God, chosen for the high calling of priestly work, chosen to be a holy people, God's instruments to do his work and speak out for him, to tell others of the night-and-day difference he made for you—from nothing to something, from rejected to accepted.
Pretty good ain't it.
CIY
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What a great thread. It sure has got me thinking! I am still in a church. I don't know how to leave with my husband about to go into "full-time" ministry there as an associate pastor. I could walk out today if it were not for my husband. I admit I don't hate it there-the people are nice, and I even have some great friends, but I don't want to be there anymore! I think being there all the time is messing with my emotions. It's not messing with my mind, but I feel emotionally torn. More and more I see the sillyness (is that a word? :-) of church and all of it's "stuff". I sit there week after week thinking over and over, "What is this all for??" To them, and my husband, it is all the work of God.
We bought a new building a month ago and have been working on it as a church to get it looking sharp and nice-and it's all the "work of God", you know. I was thinking-even this is a lie, because God does not live in buildings made with hands!! But we have to have a nice building, you know, to see more kids and people saved.
In the meantime, no one is getting "saved". Ironic, isn't it?
Sometimes, I am ashamed to be there. There is alot of pride in this building and all the work going into it. I help because of my husband. I don't want to break his heart, yet. I know I will if I quit church.
I want to leave, but it's just not time.
I used to think that the church has some things right-basic things like God's love, all of us sinners in need of a Saviour, God's sovereignty, etc., etc. But there seems to always be a man-made doctrine to counteract each truth, like eternal torture, not all will be saved, man's free-will, etc., etc.
Just a great thread to turn the wheels in my mind-thanks!
Blessings,
Beth
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Hello... It is humbling, isn't it, Beth? A LOT going on at one time... you probably feel alone and isolated... you specifically are in my prayers... as well as your family... what a whirlwind!! Where will you land? .... Most probably right where our Lord wants you to. Don't fret too much... and don't sweat the small stuff... these are the only things for me to say right now. Thanks for your post! :) And don't let it be the last one.
Big thanks CIY... yes it sounds good to me as ringing fairly true to scriptural lines for those verses...
What is missing is the "they were appointed" in three short words that is so precious from the CLNT. But the overall construction made up for it.
For the record, nor I of all people would push any paraphrased version of Scripture... and my advise is to ALWAYS check the interlinears and the variety of direct translations...
But this sounded pretty good to my soul tonight!
Nitey nite, :)
Janice
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A couple of posts above mentioned "the stone that was thrown out " is to the untrusting a stone to stumble over. Also "they refused" to trust Him. Does that not imply the choice of accepting or refusing? It seems pretty cut and dried to me. I am bothered about the talk of all the different denominations too. People don't always fit in here anymore than they do at the church down the road. There is elements of truth anywhere you find a group of people. Here or at a church. It is dismaying to me to see the same thing happening here as anywhere else. There have been people pass through who were really talked down to. I have had it done myself but I don't care about that. A question I have is this: What is anyone doing to reach out to other people? It's great to study and we should do it but we should also be showing Jesus to others in word and action. It seems that love is missing.
Seminole
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I forgot to add my last thought; it has been said that the church is like a club and I ask is that not the same as this is? You have to think like everyone else, post like everyone else and follow the teachings without question.
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seminole
If that is how you feel and all you get from Bible-truths forum, the door out is not locked , happy trails.
Rodger
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See ya' around Falcon!
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cya
Rodger
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There is elements of truth anywhere you find a group of people.
Hi Seminole,
The point of this thread was for anyone who thought the churches were teaching any scriptural truths to please go ahead and present them, not feelings not opinions but doctrine from any denomination that can be proven with scripture.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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These teaching are not Rays' Teaching but the Truth from the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Amen to that Peggy, Ray would be the first to agree with you!
I believe Ray would not be offended by me saying this because He talks about read and studing the Word of God with the anointing. I mean no offense. In Jesus Peggy
Ray has spoken of and written about the few who in each generation and scattered throughout the world who have been given this gift of His Spirit to understand the deeper things of the Word. There is no doubt there are small groups perhaps speaking Chinese, or Russian or Korean, etc. who are discussing the same things we are. His people are "the salt of the earth" and we all know salt is never used in big lumps but lightly spread around. A little salt for the meat of His Word.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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I forgot to add my last thought; it has been said that the church is like a club and I ask is that not the same as this is? You have to think like everyone else, post like everyone else and follow the teachings without question.
That was in the rules (like minded) Its not a trap but put out in front so this don't happen, anyway take care and salamat jalan. (good journey) ;D
I follow Gods teachings and make NO MISTAKE about it I had questions and check it out much like most members do so that statement is incorrect, sorry.
Randy
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I just wonder if we will look back on what we say here and think how elementary this was.
Hello again Peggy,
Absolutely! ;)
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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What a great thread. It sure has got me thinking! I am still in a church. I don't know how to leave with my husband about to go into "full-time" ministry there as an associate pastor. I could walk out today if it were not for my husband. I admit I don't hate it there-the people are nice, and I even have some great friends, but I don't want to be there anymore! I think being there all the time is messing with my emotions. It's not messing with my mind, but I feel emotionally torn. More and more I see the sillyness (is that a word? :-) of church and all of it's "stuff". I sit there week after week thinking over and over, "What is this all for??" To them, and my husband, it is all the work of God.
We bought a new building a month ago and have been working on it as a church to get it looking sharp and nice-and it's all the "work of God", you know. I was thinking-even this is a lie, because God does not live in buildings made with hands!! But we have to have a nice building, you know, to see more kids and people saved.
In the meantime, no one is getting "saved". Ironic, isn't it?
Sometimes, I am ashamed to be there. There is alot of pride in this building and all the work going into it. I help because of my husband. I don't want to break his heart, yet. I know I will if I quit church.
I want to leave, but it's just not time.
I used to think that the church has some things right-basic things like God's love, all of us sinners in need of a Saviour, God's sovereignty, etc., etc. But there seems to always be a man-made doctrine to counteract each truth, like eternal torture, not all will be saved, man's free-will, etc., etc.
Just a great thread to turn the wheels in my mind-thanks!
Blessings,
Beth
Hi Beth,
That is certainly quite the dilemma you are struggling with presently, but please do not let it consume you, God will certainly drag you out in His time.
Does your husband ever ask you about the differences in your beliefs versus the church doctrines? Is he open to searching the Word together? I know there are sincere people within these buildings but there are many that are content with following old traditional doctrines that they just don't question. Remind him of the Bereans.... (Acts 17:11) Not content with just hearing the words of the apostles, but wanting to see chapter and verse. Working out their own salvation.... (Phillipians 2:12).
I know there are some here that are of the opinion that the majority of us just accept what Ray writes and that is that, but I know that in my own case and in the case of the majority here that if Ray would write his opinions/feelings without scriptural witnesses he would be on the receiving end of a bunch of pointed questions, real quick.
To me the answer at this time would be to support your husband as you witness to him in words and deeds, perhaps the Lord will be dragging you both at the same time, maybe your husband just does not know it yet! ;)
A sacred secret maybe?
Only He knows for sure.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
John 6:35: Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty".
John 7:38: Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.
I think that there is no real Truth in the Church:
For, lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is turning aside from Jerusalem [the Church], And from Judah, stay and staff, Every stay of bread, and every stay of water. Isaiah 3:1
All of the [spiritual] bread and water is taken from the Church. This Bread and Water is Christ, and Christ said I am the way and the TRUTH and the life. John 14:6
The righteous, however, shall have their fill of bread and water:
Isaiah 33:
14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
This is how I see these verses. I'm open to any correction if I'm incorrect...I'm still pretty new at seeing the "spiritual" in things, so I may be wrong. :)
Hi Extol,
It certainly is exciting to be seeing things in a spiritual light isn't it? I know it took a few reads on Bible Truths as the Spirit of Christ began to open my eyes before the bible began to open up (unseal?) to me.
I believe you hit it right on the money!
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Jesus came and died for our sins. That is so. Jesus taught that we should put no one or no thing above Him. Jesus taught that we should look at our own faults before putting someone else's faults on trial. Jesus said that He would go (the ascencion) but would send a comforter and that we should follow what He taught while on this earth. He said to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise". He taught a lot of things that some (not all ) churches teach today. So is everything great in a church? No! Are things great here? No! We do the best we can with God's help and guidance in our lives.
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Hi seminole,
If you are not seeing some 'great' truth being revealed to you at BT, well as Ray says, the truth is not for everybody.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat, I did not intend that as a put-down to this site. The only thing I was attempting to point out is that many things I learned about such as i read, did come through church and at my Grandmother's knee. Also, just pointing out that things are not perfect anywhere. What I have gained from this site is seeing a true , heartfelt, desire of many to learn and grow. Also the privelege of "hearing" some great testimonies of God's work in the lives of people. On the flip side I have seen some (not much) discord but that is to be expected as long as we humans are involved in anything!
respectfully, Seminole
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Seminole,
It sounds to me like you are only talking about this forum?
I'm talking about what Ray has taught on the BT site. He has revealed a lot amazing truths from the scriptures, that I have never heard any where else.
This forum is great, but it is what Ray is showing through the scripture, where I have gained much understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus came and died for our sins.
Seminole,
The churches do not teach the Lord died for the sins of the world, they teach a large portion of mankind will be tortured in hell for eternity or will be annihilated.
Big difference Brother.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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As I was rereading "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!" it seemed appropriate to cut a portion of it and paste it here; You can read the the whole article @ http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
VESSELS IN A GREAT HOUSE
Listen carefully, for these prophecies are not directed toward the world of unbelievers, but to the Church of God:
"But in A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth and some to honor, and some to dishonor" (II Tim. 2:20).
Just what is this "great house" of which Paul speaks? Let Paul answer:
"But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the House of God which is The Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15).
The Apostle Peter tells us that this House of God definitely needs judging:
"For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17).
If the "House of God" needed judgment in the days of the Apostles, how much more judgment does it need today? And what did Paul prophesy would happen in this "GREAT House" in our day, "in the LATTER TIMES?" Let’s read it from the source:
"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the LATTER TIMES some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking LIES IN HYPOCRISY; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1).
And this:
"This, know also, that IN THE LAST DAYS, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away… EVER learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:1-7).
Some Christians naively believe Paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world, of mankind in general. Oh no He isn’t: It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme God," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such." Oh no. It is the HOUSE OF GOD which has done these things and continues to do them.
For sure Paul didn’t say that the vessels in this great house would wax "better and better." Let Paul answer again by continuing his prophecy in II Tim. 3. We ended with verse 7, so let’s pick it up again in verse 8:
"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do THESE [these vessels of dishonor in God’s House] also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth. But they shall proceed [Gk: ‘increase, advance, grow’] no further [Just as Jannes and Jambres could resist God only so far and no further, so too, will these corrupt-minded reprobates in God’s House cease to deceive God’s church, when God makes all secrets known to all]: for their folly shall be manifest unto all, as theirs [Jannes & Jambres] was." (II Tim. 3:8-9).
Notice Paul’s stern warning:
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).
I decided to write this paper after receiving thousands of angry emails condemning my tone of writing and teaching, all from Christians mind you. I was reminded just yesterday by email that I should not be repeating Peter’s words when He said, "…there shall be false teachers among you, who privily [smuggle] shall bring in damnable heresies…" (II Pet. 2:1). I was told this phrase carries a different meaning today from when Peter spoke it. Many warn me of dire consequences if I continue. I am regularly cursed with far worse hard-core, lewd four letter words of filth than I have ever heard in my four years in the U S Army, and these from self-proclaimed followers of Jesus Christ—CHRISTIANS!
The purpose of this paper is not to defend my style of writing, (God only knows that I do not profess to be a scholar, nor a polished orator, nor a man of eloquent words), but to rather see how Jesus really taught in public, to the masses, and particularly to the lying, hypocritical Scribes and Pharisees. We will examine whether Jesus Christ Himself did indeed use sarcasm, exaggeration, caricature, satire, irony, and anger to get across His Gospel Message.
WHO IS IT THAT WILL GET "WORSE & WORSE?"
"Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But EVIL MEN AND SEDUCERS [Gk: ‘imposters’] SHALL WAX [grow] WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).
And just who is it that grows "worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived?" The men and women of the world? The pagans and heathens? Is this what Paul means? Of course not. These are the leaders of the Church.
"Preach the word; [the WHOLE Word of God]; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine [Who? The world? The pagans? The atheist? Why they have never had sound doctrine in the first place] but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:2-4).
The heathen nations of the 21st century are not "turning away from the truth unto fables." They have never as nations had the truth.
Notice also Peter’s stern warning regarding what was happening in the past in his time, and what was prophesied to continue until our time and beyond:
"But there were false prophets [a ‘prophet’ can mean one who speaks in behalf of God’] also among the people, even as there shall be [future] false teachers among you [and among US], who privily shall bring in [Gk: smuggle in] DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [destructive] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of [Gk: ‘blasphemed’]" (II Pet. 2:1-2).
At the conclusion of this paper we will take a look at some of these: "FABLES AND DAMNABLE HERESIES" that the Church Fathers and Theologians have substituted over the centuries and down to our day in place of God’s sound doctrines.
Listen: Either conditions in the prophesied Church of today are MUCH WORSE than they were at the time of Jesus and the Apostles, or the prophecies LIE. So which do you believe is true?
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Anyone want to comment on what the churches might say about these verses in light of the fact they (mainstream christianity) teaches man was created perfect?
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Hi Joe,
This has been a really great thread! I'm trying to catch up with everything as I've been away for a couple weeks. This particular post stuck out to me because I had opportunity to have some in-depth discussions with my sister-in-law, and one of the things she kept going back to was that Adam and Eve were perfect and messed up by making the wrong choice....I quoted the verse in Jeremiah to her but she just couldn't connect the dots. I do think she was able to receive some of the things I said, and something that really interested her was that there are two resurrections...she has never been taught anything about the resurrections in the church! Isn't that amazing, since Paul says that our faith hinges upon the truth of the resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:13-22
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain...
...For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins...
...But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
I find the whole free will thing to be the biggest barrier in trying to consider universal salvation, because people still hang on to the idea that if they can choose to reject God they will be forever lost. It is a strong delusion indeed.
Thanks for all the great stuff in this thread everybody!
Peace,
Diana
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Thanks Diana,
It is great to see you here again!
Isn't it amazing how folks can still hang on to the fallacy that Adam & Eve were created perfect when the scriptures say otherwise?
We are witnessing a miracle really, the eyes He keeps in the dark for His time and season but once He grants the Light to shine through we are struck by the clarity of these verses, how could it be missed?
We know how....
His Peace to you,
Joe
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It's just amazing to see how far some are willing to go in "thinking above that which is written":
God should not otherwise be manifested to be the only God of all men, unless he should show his goodness in saving all types of men. Neither should Christ be seen to be the only mediator between God and all types of men, by having taken upon him that nature of man which is common to all men, unless he had satisfied for all types of men, and made intercession for all. (Geneva commentary on 1Ti 2:5)
Instead of recognizing that "all" would have to mean "all", they say that it means "all types of men". So, Jesus is the Saviour of "all types of men"? Meaning BOTH lawyers and academics?? It's really sounding stupid: "Jesus Christ, Saviour of all types of men"...
Give me a break! ;)
God bless you,
Eirik