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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: gohaley on May 29, 2010, 08:07:28 PM
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Hi people,
The bible says, the nobody in history has seen or heard God the Father.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time...
John 5:37
And the Father Who sends Me, He has testified concerning Me. Neither have you ever heard his voice nor a perception of Him have you seen.
Do these verses apply to the spiritual realm also. Do/can angels literally communicate with God the Father or do they only converse and deal with Yahwah. Job 1:6, 2:1, I Kings 22:19, II Chr18:18 etc.
I know it would follow the same principle as John 14:9, where if an angel is speaking to Yahwah they are technically speaking to God the Father. But, is God the Father spirit/invisible in the spiritual realm as well as this material realm or is he only invisible in this realm? Any biblical indications would be appreciated.
(I know this question is neither here nor there and the answer will make no difference to my life. It just popped into my thoughts this morning and i think it's an interesting concept.)
Peace Greg
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Not to pull a Clinton but .....what exactly do you mean by the word "see"
The physical wolrd is perishable, reality is in the Spriit realm.
When All are in ALL .....we are one with the Father.....so what is there to "see"
There will be No need for eye or mirrors or anything else...
Does a drop in the ocean even care about its own idenity anymore?
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
beloved
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Hi Greg,
Based on the translation you are reading, it will read: No one MKJV, CLV, GNB, Rotherham and others or ASV, DRB, KJV, RV, Webster and others, read No man. It appears the Scripture here is speaking about humanity, because we are physical.
Strongs definition below:
G3762
οὐδείς
oudeis
oo-dice'
Including the feminine οὐδεμία oudemia
oo-dem-ee'-ah and the neuter οὐδέν ouden oo-den'
From G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: - any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.
george :).
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Hi Greg,
Here is a section from the 2006 Mobile Conference 'The Father's Will.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27960.html#msg27960 -----
WHO IS THE FATHER?
There is a big misconception, in the whole Christian world They read the OT and it talks about God, the Lord, and Jehovah, and they think this is God the Father... it is not, this is not The Father. Few Christian alive understand, until Jesus Christ came no one on earth knew anything about this entity called God the Father Nobody ever heard of God the Father, they heard of God, they thought God was the one who dealt with Israel, the prophets, Moses, and Adam and Eve in the OT, that’s God. We learned that was not God the Father. He was there, but not specifically referred to in most of those scripture. Paul says there are many gods, pagans have their gods...
“But to US there is but ONE GOD THE FATHER, OF Whom are all things [all things?], and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him. Howbeit, there is not in every man this knowledge…” (1 Cor. 8:5-7)
The word 'things', in this verse should be, ‘those’ not things, it’s talking about people, beings.
Who has that knowledge, let’s analyze this. I’m amazed at how much we can learn from so little. The Bible does not give 20 page explanations of different things But there are little words and phrases, if you understand them, will explain a whole gamut of things. We just read over these words. Pay attention to the words. Don’t just read over them and try to get an overview. Pay attention to the words, all the words. Man should live by every word (Luke 4:4). All scripture are by inspiration of God, all these words are important.
Notice what it said “But to us there is but one God the Father, of whom are all…”. What is the all? Well, what is not of the Father, nothing. What about Jesus, is Jesus of the Father or is He His own God? It says, of the Father is all, that would have to include Jesus. “…and we in Him…”, what does this mean? There is one God and we are in Him. How are we in Him? There are other scriptures talking about God being in us.
Acts 17:23 “For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOW GOD. Not knowing then when you worship, I make Him know to you.”
The Greek had all these gods, they thought maybe there was one they didn’t know about. So they even made an altar to the unknown god, and Paul said, the one you call the unknown god, is the One I worship.
God made the world and all things there in. How does that stack up with modern religion?
Where do they go to worship, in a church building. Where does God say He does not dwell ( Act 7:48; 17:24), in a building made with hands. There was a time when God dwelled in the Holy place, both in the tabernacle and in the temple in Jerusalem. But after He ushered in the NT, He destroyed that temple, and tore down the curtain that separated man from God. We go directly to God now.
“For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am in the midst of them,” (Matt. 18:20).
You do not have to go to a church. God does not dwell in church buildings. Neither is He worshipped with man’s hands. As if He needed anything, seeing that He gives us all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:26 “He has made of one blood, all nations of men, for to dwell on the face of the earth. And He is determined their appointed seasons and boundaries of their habitation,
v. 27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel (grope) after Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;”
Now we have another false concept, where is God? in heaven? Well, where is heaven? Waaay up there?
He is not far from any one of us, but what does that have to do with the theory, you have to go worship in a church or on this day or that day? He is not far from any of us! We don’t pay attention to the words.
GOD IS SPIRIT, but nowhere in scripture does it say, God is a Spirit, God is Spirit.
V. 28 “For in Him we live, and move, and have our being (we exist in Him), as certain even of your own poets have said, for we are also His offspring.”
Whenever Paul could make a connection with their pagan beliefs, he made the connection, so they would say, this man knows what he is talking about. Paul said, I am become all things to all men to gain some, (1 Cor. 9:22). When you go to Japan, you take off your shoes before you go in the house, he didn’t say I’m not going to take off my shoes for nobody.
Rom. 13:7 “Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.”
So here he was siding with them, look your own poets have said that we are God’s own offspring. They were pagan, but they were right, in some things they were right.
So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish. The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.
Now this is what the Scriptures say, we are in God and God is in us. So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair. God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.
God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can’t see Him, not literally. We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our innermost being.
The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God. I’m trying to help you right now, to see God. So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn’t, when you walked in here. If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.
God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it's cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!
What did Jesus say when He left His apostles and vanished out of their sight.
He said, “all power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth,” (Matt. 28:18).
That’s why He has come, He’s not the Father, but He’s God and He possesses all power in heaven and earth. By being the One, who possesses all power in heaven and earth, He is God. He didn’t have all power in heaven and earth from all eternity, it was given to Him. One God, everything is out of that God. We’re in Him and He’s in us, because He’s Spirit. Not a Spirit, in some geographical location. The reason God knows everything, is in all places at all times, is because that’s where He is. He’s Spirit and He refers to Himself as Spirit. My Spirit is here, there and everywhere.
David was inspired to write, where can I go to get away from you God, up to heaven, down to sheol, (Psalms 139:7-12).
There’s no place I can go, where you are not. Why? God is Spirit, God is not a man, get that out of your head. He (God) tells us that, God is not a man... Jesus Christ is a man.
Where is God? EVERYWHERE!
If you're in a life raft, out in the middle of the ocean, you don’t have to cry out to God, to help you. God can see you, in the big ocean. He’s there, whether He’ll help, that’s a different story. But He is there.
I clipped this saying years ago and pasted it in the front of my Bible,
'Thy ocean, O Lord, is so great and my boat is so small.'
It’s the truth, we are pretty small in the universe. Everything is out of God.
So there was a time, before everything was out of God, when there was just God. That is a hard concept... take away people, take away the earth, the stars, the planets, the solar system, the galaxies, and the whole universe, take it all away and what do you have? If you take away the creation, what is left? Would it be dark or light? You have to pay attention to the words. Take away the creation of the universe and you’re not left with blackness of outer space. I’m just going to read it to you.
Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird thee, though thou hast not known me;
v. 6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else.
v. 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
So if we do away with the created universe, what do you have? You have God and light. He created the darkness. But I had someone say to me, cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light, it’s not something, it’s the absence of something. I say, I know that sounds very scientific, but God’s thoughts are not your thoughts, neither His ways our ways, and God created darkness. Except that there be, this envelope of darkness that shrouds us from God, it would be light all the time, everywhere. There is no darkness with God. Only in His creation did He create darkness.
So don’t think before God created the universe, He was drifting around in outer space, with nothing to sit on, nowhere to go and nothing to do. It doesn’t even say that there was nothing. It doesn’t say in the beginning there was nothing and God made something. t says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, but God doesn’t live in things that are created. He doesn’t need that for habitation, because He existed before He created those things. Now He resides in heaven, the heavens being (among other things) us. Our spirituality is of heaven and He dwells in man. Don’t you know your body is a holy temple of God. There are multiple heavens.
Back to verse 5. How can there be no other God besides Jehovah?He is Yahweh and Elohim is part of Yahweh. So He says I am the Lord and there is no God besides Me.
Now when it says, in the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth, it’s a plural. That’s why God said let US be making man in OUR image. How can one person say Us and Our? It’s because God is from the Hebrew word Elohim and it’s plural. Jehovah is part of that plurality. He is part of the Us, so really there is no Us. But whoever God represents, is Us.
Sometimes He even represents us, as an angel of the Lord, but sometimes I have a feeling that it’s Jehovah, but it could be a special angel of the Lord, that is not Jehovah. And when He speaks on behalf of God, people took that as God.
Like an ambassador of our country, you would represent your country, tho you are not our country, you are the highest representative of your country. But Jehovah is part of the Elohim, the One God.
I know this is a little bit of a stretch for most people, but God is not the first name of the Father. God is a title, it means the supreme Being of the universe, the supreme Deity, that’s what God means and represents. In most languages that’s the title, not the personal name of some being, it’s a title.
Smith is the title of who I am, I’m a Smith. I have a son, Blake Smith. If someone says to him, are you a Smith, he’ll say yes and Ray is my father. He’s a Smith and I’m a Smith, I’m his father and he’s my son. But, he’s not me. I’m in him, because he came out of me. He deserves the title Smith, just as much as I do.
Jesus Christ looks like God, acts like God and thinks like God, has all the power, majesty and glory of God.
HE'S GOD!
So before the universe there was God. Was there anything besides God? I don’t know, it doesn’t say.
It just tells us when the heavens and earth were made. It does not tell us if there were spiritual things that were, or were not made, before or after this.
Understand the Bible is very limited. The bible talks to humanity from the reference of the earth. It doesn’t go much farther than that. The Bible says virtually nothing about, before God created the heavens and the earth. And it says virtually nothing about when we will be in the kingdom or born into the family of God. Just a little phrase here and there.
So what is God? We know He is Spirit, He’s everywhere, He’s light, and He’s all powerful, all these things.
Not some lonely Being before He made heaven and earth.
But this God, that is everywhere, this light, bright, brilliant power, majesty, glory, all knowledge and wisdom, represents Himself to humanity, as a Father.
So if you wanted to know what kind of a God He is, He’s like a Father!
That’s as close as you can come to what God is like.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanx for your quick responses.
So is the Father invisible in the spiritual-heavenly realm as well as this physical realm? Beloved mentioned that the Father will be 'All in All', which would indicate to me that He is invisible in 'that' realm. Maybe???
By Rays teachings I understand that Yahwah-God is not the Father. Angels communicate with Yahwah all the time in the scriptures. Ray also mentioned somewhere that the angels will go thru some sort of judgement resulting in the Father being 'All in All' (all life in the universe).
Are there any more scriptures that will give me a clearer picture?
Thanx Guys
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@Beloved.
I mean see.
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Hi Greg,
Here is an excerpt that will help, you may need to read the entire article, just click on the link below to be taken there.
Excerpt From:
WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . Nashville Conference 2007
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
WHO IS THE FATHER?
When we hear of Elohim, El, or Jehovah Elohim, it is as much from the Father as it is Christ, because they are one.
Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father. No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father. He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement. I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own.
But in Spirit... the whole thing has to do with spirit and attitude, they are ONE!
So it says in Acts 5:30 “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus.” But when we read in the OT “the God of our fathers,” it was Jesus. But what I want to show by that is the Scripture themselves gives us the latitude to recognize that no matter who the person is, whether it be the Father or the Son, it’s always God.
It is always God. Even Christ in His humiliation, in His physical form, where He was severely limited as a human being. It may say it’s Jesus Christ speaking, but it doesn’t matter if it says it’s Jesus Christ speaking or the OT it’s Jehovah speaking. We know if someone is speaking it’s NOT the Father. Because He does not speak, except through the Son.
So when Christ said, “I have come to reveal the Father” or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn’t necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father. He’s going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past. All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son.
So when Jesus Christ said, “before Abraham was, I Am” they should have begun to realize... wait a minute are You saying that was You? You talked to Moses?
Now we know that some of the apostles, got it for sure. Paul understood that spiritual Rock was Christ, that is who it was.
Now at the last supper Philip did not know, he just didn’t know. So He said “have I been with you so long, and you ask who the Father is, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father.” Then He went on in different places to say a number of things.
“I and the Father are One.” (John 10:30)
“I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.” (John 17:21)
“The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)
george :).
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Hi Greg,
Isa 66:1 Thus says Yahweh, "The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is this house which you are building for Me? And where is this place of My rest?
Jer 23:24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and have our being,
Well I do have an opinion about this and that is how can this type of being have a particular location that you could actually look at Him? I think we as humans are always trying to relate things to something physical, we want to understand things by using our 5 senses. But really God the Father is so far beyond anything so limiting as is in the physical realm that our comprehension, at this time, simple can not fantom what He is. Of course He made us this way, so what He did to help us out and give us some idea of Himself, was sent Jesus Christ which was His perfect repersentation in physical form.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature...
I do not believe that the Father can be limited into the figure of some kind of being. He gave us Jesus Christ who is everything that we need to know about who or what the Father is.
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanx guys. The answers given were great. I thank God for leading me to this forum.
God has blessed you guys with wisdom. I'm amazed when I read the answers given in various other topics on the forum also. It always challenges my thinking. I mean always.
Amazing
Greg
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Hi gohaley
These Scriptures also show that we do not see God physically but by His Spirit we are blessed to come to understand and know the Ways of God and His Purposes and Plans that His Spirit shows to us. We can not know God's ways and thoughts with our thoughts.....
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
God shows us His Virtues, Wisdom, Sovereignty and Love through His Spirit working in us
1Co 2:10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
God is not seen with the physical sences so
1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
Arc
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Thanx Arc.
I completly agree with you on this subject with regards to Mankind ever seeing God (the Father). I was just wondering if the angels could see the Father or if He was Spirit to them also.
I know that Jesus is everything that the Father is, so it wouldn't matter either way if they acually saw the Father or not because he does his work thru His Son. ( If you get my meaning )
Thanx again Arc
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Hi gohaley
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Whether you take the expression "to see" as literal sight or comprehensive insight, I believe that the angels who behold the face of God who is in heaven, are as Jesus says, comprehending Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Blessings to you
Arc
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Thanx Arc. That was a great answer to my question.
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Blessings to you gohaley :)
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Kat, help me here. If Jesus is the WORD of God made flesh, then he was always with God. He is God. I don't believe He was created by the Father but being the Father's WORD He always existed within the Father, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Father always existed, if not then tell me who or what created Him. Whatever is said of the Father can also be said of the Son. One in Being with the Father. Always!
Have to go now but anticipate your answer, Thanks ahead of time as you always do such a good job. Judy
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Hi Judy,
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)
Jesus "came forth from the Father" and was "the beginning of the creation of God." So He was created by the Father and it seems that Christ was the very first thing created because we know that everything else was created by Him.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
So Christ was in the "beginning" as "the Word" and created all else.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God;
v.3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
The purpose of "the Word"... since nobody has "heard His (the Father"s) voice at any time" (John 5:37) then Jesus Christ was the means by which the truth would be given to people, through inspiration in the OT.
Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
But then He actually came and brought the word of truth to us in the flesh.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
Luke 5:1 While the people pressed upon Him to hear the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennes'aret.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
There is no Scripture that states how the Father came into existence or that He wasn't always there, somehow. We just don't know. I hope that is if some help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, I see Rev. 3:14 differently, let me explain. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, (right here, the faithful and true witness, is an appositive) the beginning of the creation of God;
Prior to this vs. the angel is talking about those who overcome which if you follow the verb "SAITH the Amen, ( then skip the appositive, which does no more than describe the Amen) and go for the direct object, "the beginning" To me this speaks of the overcomers and they being the BEGINNING of the creation of God.
What sayest you. Judy
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Hi Judy,
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
"These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Even if you disregard the part I struck out, still the rest of the sentence is speaking of the "the Amen..." which says He is "...the Beginning of the creation of God."
You can see that it is Christ that is addressing all of the churches.
Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
"These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:
Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
"These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Rev 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
"These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword:
Rev 2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
"These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:
Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
"These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:
Rev 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
"These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one open":
Back in the first chapter we also see who is addressing the churches.
Rev 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
v. 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
v. 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
v. 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
v. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, I see Rev. 3:14 differently, let me explain. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, (right here, the faithful and true witness, is an appositive) the beginning of the creation of God;
Prior to this vs. the angel is talking about those who overcome which if you follow the verb "SAITH the Amen, ( then skip the appositive, which does no more than describe the Amen) and go for the direct object, "the beginning" To me this speaks of the overcomers and they being the BEGINNING of the creation of God.
What sayest you. Judy
Hi Judy,
After my brief comment, I have copied and pasted a few excerpts from the Article: Is God a Trinity or an expanded family by Ray that might assist. The Greek word Genea whic is the root word that means: begin, began, to beget, conceive, born, etc. If someone or something has a beginning or a start, than that means at one time there was no existence as of yet. Trinitarians believe that Jesus was Co-Eternal with the Father, meaning that He always existed. Bible Scholars of Christendom have a tendency to take a basic root word of something like genea and turn it into meanings that contradict it's primary meaning. They usually do this especially when it involves their Doctrines. When it comes to Greek or Hebrew Words that don't pose any threat to their Doctrines, they are usually pretty accurate as to meaning and usage.
John. 1:18 literally says that Jesus is " the only begotten God" (GK- Ho monogenes Theos). Who is He "Begotten of: The Father. Begotten is derived from the Root Greek Word " Gennao." Anyway, see excerpts below in blue of Rays.
I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
And the next verse says
"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)
I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.
If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!
The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.
How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"
Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
Now we are getting down to what the Bible really teaches. God has a family. God is "The FATHER" of His family. Jesus Christ is "the Firstborn SON" of God’s Family.
"Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the SON OF HIS LOVE, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the pardon of sins, Who is the Image of the invisible God, FIRSTBORN of every creature..." (Col. 1:13-15).
Hey! I’m a "creature." You’re a "creature." This verse is talking about US!
We are now, already, in spirit, a part of God’s family!
"For you did not get slavery’s spirit to fear again, but you got the SPIRIT OF SONSHIP in which we are crying, ‘Abba, FATHER!’ The spirit itself is testifying together with our spirit that WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD." (Rom. 8:14-16).
Yes, God wants sons (and daughters, of course).
"Blessed be the God and FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy, and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a SON..." (Eph. 1:3-5).
You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?
But notice how you answer this question in your own statement: "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation." There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God! It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it? Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).
Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,
"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him."
And not verse 28:
"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.
Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...? And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"
As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM." Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."
Gotta run. Till next time. . .
Ray
Hope this Helps, Samson.
P.S I might have mispelled the Greek Word Gennao, this is also mentioned to some degree in the Thread: Greek words defined & usuage.
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
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Hi Judy
Allow me to express another perspective on this important discussion you have raised.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Christ calls Himself three things. He is the Amen, the faithful and true witness.
As the 'Amen' we know Christ as the Truth as defined by Dr. Strong as "Properly firm, figuratively trustworthy."
Amen is often translated in the King James as 'verily,' meaning 'truly,' and is often seen repeated as "Verily, verily," especially in the gospel of John. For example:
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
I consider this, that no one has been born as Jesus was born and we have not been made as the first Adam was made. We are in between the beginning and the end. We are not literally nor spiritually either the beginning or the end. Jesus Christ is the last Adam also. So really and truly, verily verily, we are a new creation of God unlike either the first or the last Adam. We have the soul of Adam and the quickening Spirit of Christ. We are unlike any other creature God is making to purge and purify the soul of Adam in the quickening Spirit of His Son Jesus Christ. This is in true form to Jesus Christ doing a new thing.
We are being made to be overcomers of the world as is Jesus Christ and we are being made to be the best of Adam, purged of carnality and corruption made to be as God to know the difference between good and evil. The fate of all is salvation.
We all still have to die so I still think we all walk in the down payment of the total conversion to the full image and standard height of Christ.
So Judy, for me, only Christ has overcome the world and is the firstborn of every creature. The Spirit OF Christ is in us, but that does not make us HIM. We are not fully Adam either. We are a new creation.
The Image of Christ is as different from being Christ Himself as it is for Jesus to be His own Father.
God the Father of whom are all things is much greater than God The Son by whom are all things.
We are by whom are all things that is Christ. So we are by the by….we are of the beginning of creation, (Christ) not The Beginning of Creation. The beginning of creation is Christ who has overcome the world.
Just as Christ is of God His Father, we are of Christ the Son by whom are all things.
God has not finished with us yet. :)
Arc
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You would think from your replies that I said something about the Father being under the Son or something. All I questioned was the CREATION of Jesus. Of course He comes from the Father, He is the WORD of the Father.
COL, 3 vs 13-15 says Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
That is not physical, but spiritual, the Father has no image, He is Spirit.
Likewise we are born into the image of God through the workings of Christ, the firstborn in the family of God. I do not think there is more than one God for heaven's sake.
I just don't think Jesus was CREATED by God but rather is God, has always been God born of the Holy Spirit that comes from the Father and into the Word (Jesus) (made alive by the Spirit)
and we have the same Spirit given to us when we are born into the family by Christ.
Jesus referred to Himself as I AM so he was always there in the Father, He was the Word made flesh. Made flesh, the Word was made flesh. Judy
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He was the Word made flesh. Made flesh, the Word was made flesh.
Of course The Word was made flesh. Whosoever denies this, is anti-christ.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world. They refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. Any such person is a deceiver and an antichrist.
We are as the first Adam with the last Adam’s quickening Spirit within us.
We are not the Word made flesh.
Bottom line ~ We are as the flesh of the first Adam that is overcome by the Spirit of the last Adam in us.
We are a new creation both from, by and of God ~ a Work of God in progress. :)
Arc
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We throw these words 'created by' and 'came out of' like we know what we're talking about. Why 'literalize' what is Spiritual, and figurative language to boot? Ray teaches that God is LIKE Father to Jesus Christ, not LITERALLY Father. If literal, then where is the mother? The truth is, the relationship is not LESS than Father/Son because it is not literal, but MORE THAN Father/Son. Those are the best words to 'describe' what the relationship is like, just as 'wind' is the best word to describe Spirit.
We can believe and trust ALL the scripture that tells us who the Son is. We do not have to pick and choose. But if we think we can fully understand them in flesh and AS LITERAL, then we're in for a very bumpy ride.
If you have problems with the truth that Jesus was/is created, perhaps you have too limited a view of "Creation". But I don't condemn because not one of us has perfect understanding, just idols of the heart. That's the way I see it.
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Kat, help me here. If Jesus is the WORD of God made flesh, then he was always with God. He is God. I don't believe He was created by the Father but being the Father's WORD He always existed within the Father, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Father always existed, if not then tell me who or what created Him. Whatever is said of the Father can also be said of the Son. One in Being with the Father. Always!
Have to go now but anticipate your answer, Thanks ahead of time as you always do such a good job. Judy
Judy,
Also, to add to my previous Post, just as a side note; there was a Thread at General Discussions dating 08/13/08 entitled: John. 1-5, started by Roy Monis(He's no longer a member), you might want to check that out. Apparently, Roy felt there was difference between Created or Begotten in reference to Christ. Roy felt Christ always existed like The Father and seemed to forget that the word "Eternal" is not in the Bible, at least it's not supposed to be and applied a verse that had it to Christ. Well, there were some good replies from that old thread.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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O.K, yes, Arc, I do not think we are the Word made flesh.
John, I see where you are coming from. If the Father exists as complete, then I can see where He sent forth His Word. Perhaps it is semantics here. The Father would be the Cause of the Son. But if I say Created then why does God Create something out of Himself who is already Complete?
I will try to find that piece. judy
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I tried to find Aug. 13 in general discussions and came across only one that wasn't what you mentioned. Help.
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why does God Create something out of Himself who is already Complete
Joh 4:23 Yet the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Indeed, the Father is looking for people like that to worship him.
Who better to worship God than His Children who are as and with Him in Spirit and in Truth. :)
God is our perfect, trustworthy family, home, destination and hope.
Arc
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The scriptures clearly teach that the Father had no beginning. The scriptures also teach that Jesus did have a beginning. Where did Jesus come from? Jesus came from the Father. He was created by the Father, came out of the Father, formed by the Father. There was a time when Jesus did not exist. Then there was a time when He did exist. His Father God made, formed, created Him. This is pretty elementary stuff and easy to understand. If I have said something not true, then please show by scripture what is not true.
Hey John,
I just want to step in and say that from reading Dave's post, he was not in disagreement with you. If you notice in Dave's comments, he calls it a 'truth' that Jesus was/is created.
I initially posted some thoughts as well regarding Jesus coming forth from the Father. But I am learning to not 'build on another man's foundation' as Paul notes in Rom 15:20. What I mean by that is if the truth is already preached, it is best to let that stand. I've noticed, lately more than ever, that in our zeal to express the truth, we can trip over one another and cause confusion even though our intentions are good.
In sticking with the original subject based on Judy's comment, it seems you both are in agreement that Jesus came forth from the Father. Whether another member disagrees with that or not, it does us no good to continue to harp back and forth. If a member is not pushing an agenda, let them be in disagreement. As you noted, it is only by the spirit that understanding is given...we can only plant the seed.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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I read and re-read everything, examined scripture that was mentioned and----i think I got what you all were saying. Jesus is subject to and came (created, brought forth, etc.) from the Father, begotten of the Father, Jesus IS God, NOT ALSO, as two Gods, because that would be dualism. Just like trinity gets people thinking three Gods.
Now, I DON"T claim what I am about to say is true, just speculating here. When I said I believed Jesus was always, let's use the word PRESENT with the Father I have re-thought that (scripture) but just like an earthly mother or father the thought one day of conceiving a child is always in the back of one's mind, existing but not manifested. MAYBE that would explain Jesus referring to Himself as "I Am."
I'll bet someone will think that is pretty egotistical of me to come up with that but that's me. No apologies.
Never have I heard before this that Jesus was SUBJECT to the Father. But then again I was taught doctrine, scripture too but mostly doctrine.
Thank you so much for putting up with me. Judy
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On another note I read 4 (four pages) of this same subject and I just want to say I asked all the same questions that Roy Mosin or Morin asked. The patience extended to Roy was not of the same degree shown to me by a few here and I just wanted to state that. I did not like that, "idols of the heart" I have no idols.
Roy questioned CREATED also! I aquiessed because I don't want to argue. I still think CREATED is a poor choice of a word. But, not to throw the chicken out with the bath water so be it. judy
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I reckon I should withdraw that "not one of us has perfect understanding, just idols of the heart" statement and only stick with the heart I know--that's mine.
When I was a child, I 'saw' God the way Ray talks about in the passage Kat quoted earlier in the thread...as a wise old man up in the sky someplace. Turns out I was wrong. When I got a little older, I 'saw' Him as a tremendously HUGE and POWERFUL and ALL-WISE old man who could magicly be everywhere all at once. Turns out I was wrong then too.
If those two 'images' of God--and every subsequent one since then as I've grown and learned--were not "IDOLS of the HEART" then I confess I have absolutely no idea what an Idol of the heart is.
I've testified in the forum a number of times that the changes being wrought in my life since I've believed the Gospel have in large measure come from 'seeing' God more and more clearly, more and more Glorified. If Idols of MY heart had not been crushed, then I wouldn't have had room for the blessing of 'seeing' the Lord to the (admittedly limited, dark, incomplete, falling-short-of-the-Glory) extent I have.
I hope that those limited, dark, incomplete, falling short idols will continue to fall. I have to believe they will, because Scripture did say "...we shall be like Him, for we shall SEE Him as He is." Don't we get a 'down-payment' on that promise now?
I don't know what else to say--which is surely part of the problem.
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An idol of the heart could well be the Mind of Christ that would surely be well pleasing to God would it not? There is good leaven.
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, (SINCERITY AND TRUTH)which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
There is bad leaven.
Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven (MALICE, WICKEDNESS AND HYPOCRICY)of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Our present mortality is unequaled to our love for Him, the true idol of our hearts, destiny of our souls and love of our lives. We are unmatched to each other. Our match is to His Spirit that is our Unity with Him in the bond of Peace to Him. That bond of Peace is in unity to His Spirit which is our blessing and privilege in being His new creation.
God knows where each of us are in the scheme of His Plans and Purposes. If anyone of us speaks a wrong thing about God, then there is ample room here for edification, guidance and fruitful writings of which the BT site is well equipped. :D
Seeing and tasting that the Word of God is good with joy and gratitude of the benefit given to us by God to communicate knowledge of Him should find no fault between us for more and exceedingly greater is our benefit blessing and joy of exchanging words and thoughts of our God and His Spirit as we share testimonies, blessings and insights all of God and all in gratitude for the knowledge we share of Him that is given to us by Him.
We are new creations 8) :)
Our like-mindedness is not with one another or any other mortal brethren ~ it is with Christ Who is incomparably unmatched!
Our unity to Christ is not something we create, it is present, already created by our Lord, that He brings to us as He is Present to and with us in our hearts and individual homes of our souls that are in His making and His council. How wonderful is that to contemplate, treasure and focus upon. We meet each other in that Unity with His Spirit and that is our bond, our blessing and our opportunity in fellowship of Him. 8)
Arc
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An idol of the heart could well be the Mind of Christ that would surely be well pleasing to God would it not?
Arc,
I think we all understand your intentions with the above statement, as they are good. But I it can lead to confusion to refer to the Mind of Christ as an idol of the heart.
The Lord always refers to 'idols of the heart' with great disdain. Though the Lord tells us to worship Him with all our heart, He never says to refer to Him or His Word as an idol of the heart.
Remember it is out of the heart which proceeds all wickedness [Matt 15:19]. Every idol of the heart mentioned in scripture is a form of wickedness, never of righteousness.
Marques
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Let there be no confusion 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. :)
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I was thinking golden cows here so I see what everybody was saying. Sorry!
This was a another hard one for me like when dying you are dead and not ressurrected immediately.
But, I cannot and will not deny scripture an when I studied it more I could see some of my wrong learning.
The trinity always confused me but in defense of those who originated it I can see the dilemma.
The Holy Spirit plays such a big part of our lives and with such power that I can see where they were coming from. Yet, again, how did they arrive at this.
I heard of T. J. Jake (I am sure you have heard of him) explaining the trinity once and getting a bunch of flak from theologians that this explanation was not true. He did the thermos bottle definition (which I thought was pretty good) you know 3 parts but 1. They said each part of the trinity was God, well there is a little preposition there, OF, which was neglected as far as I was concerned. The Spirit OF---- I would always get confused as to WHO I should be praying to.
Since I have had a more deeper conversion a few yrs. back I see where the WORD of God made flesh with Jesus (God) was the forerunner to the Father who is Love. I just pray to the Father now in the name of Jesus.
Am I correct here?
Judy
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The only thing Im sure of is that Jesus is worthy of worship, but Im having second thoughts about praying to Him after reading everything in this thread and a few other things from Ray's papers. It seems like I'm back to square one again. Gosh just when I thought I had this figured out. ??? I know that we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but what exactly does that mean? What does "in the name of Jesus" mean? Is this a phrase Im to repeat over and over again during prayer to the Father? Or does it mean so much more? From what Ray has said in his papers I know that the name of Jesus means a lot, and it stands for (among other things) Who He is, what He has done, and what He is gonna do. He is God, Jehovah-Savior, Elohim (God Family), He created everything by the will of the Father, and He will save the whole world, He is everything His Father is, yet He says His Father is greater, which I believe and understand. I have heard and read many times that everything is done through Jesus, and no one can come to the Father except by Jesus and that Jesus said He did not consider it to be robbing the Father to be called His equal because the Father has freely given His Son these things. I guess I do not understand this as well as I thought. I think about all those who prayed to and worshiped Jesus in the OT, was this just a type/shadow of worshiping the Father? I mean do we now have to make a switch from worshiping and praying to Jesus, to praying and worshiping the Father? Not that this would be a problem for me, I guess I just want to do the right thing. I guess what I really want to know is, what the heck are you all talking about? What is the main point of everything being said here? What did I miss?
Forgive me, but these are sincere questions, and it is not my intent to start an debate or argument over who is right or wrong. I know I have been wrong many times, and I probably will be again. Maybe this is something only God can reveal to me? If so, no problem, I will wait. :)
Good questions Judy, I pray for patience for those who might answer us.
Peace, G.Driggs
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Luke 11:1 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."
v. 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
v. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
v. 4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."
Here are a few things that I think is pertinent to this topic.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4433.msg34087.html#msg34087 ---
Dear Wendy:
The Name of the God of the Old Testament is "Yahweh/Jehovah." Also "I AM WHO I AM."
In the New Testament Jesus never called His Father by any Name, Just "Father." No man has ever seen or heard the voice of God the Father of Jesus Christ, hence the "God" of the Old Testament is the Word or Spokesman for God, Jesus the Christ (John 1:1-3). But, as Jesus and His Father "ARE ONE" (John 10:30), we cannot exclude One from the Other no matter Which is speaking or performing.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:
One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!
One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!
One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!
The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!
A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!
Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!
Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.
In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.
I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
And the next verse says
"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)
I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.
If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!
The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.
How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"
Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!
And again:
"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."
v
There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm ------------------------------
Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.
The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.
I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead." Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.
We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOMEONE ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.
Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:
"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).
Now notice this:
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).
Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?
What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).
"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).
Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???
Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:
"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."
After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again in THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:
"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).
Back to John:
"Remain IN ME. I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).
We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:
"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).
And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?
Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.
Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'? God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it? I John 2:1:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!
There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!
When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!
"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).
"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IN US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).
It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.
CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!
OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.
Sincerely,
Ray
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Dear G. Driggs:
You ask good questions. I want to lighten your load a little. Here are a few scriptural examples of praying to Jesus (there are many):
Acts 7
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. (And that reminds me of how Ray says that he falls to sleep thanking God for all of his blessings -- he starts with his pillow, then his bed, then his wife and kids, so on and so forth.)
1 Tim. 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.
Rev 22:20 Even so, come Lord Jesus.
You can thank the Father ("I thank you Father that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the babes") and petition the Father because you have been given the spirit of Jesus Who Himself is the Son of God, and as a son of God the Father by adoption, you can, by (in) that same spirit as a son, also pray to the Father saying, "Abba, Father!" (Our Father, which art in heaven, give us this day our daily Bread (Jesus)...)
You can thank Jesus and petition Jesus. There are many examples, you can think of lots, I'm positive.
I can think of one in particular where the woman was crying after Jesus for help with her daughter -- that was an example of a petitioning prayer to Jesus.
When Jesus healed the lepers and only one came back to thank Him, that was a prayer of thankfulness.
I think it's important to thank Jesus -- He has done so much for us, why wouldn't we want to thank Him; God the Father would not frown on that.
I found this when I did a search for "should we pray to Jesus or the Father":
" 1. Christ is the "one in charge" of everything that affects my spiritual life (1 Corinthians 15:27), but I can't talk to him?
2. Christ is the Head of the body of which I am a member, but I can't talk to Him?
3. Christ is the Vine in which I am a branch (John 15:1-8), from Whom I derive all of my spiritual sustenance, but I can't talk to Him?
4. Christ is the King of the kingdom of which I am a citizen, but I can't talk to the King?
5. Christ is the Captain of my salvation (Hebrews 2:10), but I can't talk to my Captain?
6. Christ is my Brother (Hebrews 2:11), but I can't talk to my Brother?
7. Christ is my High Priest (Hebrews 3:1) He offered Himself for my sins, He is touched with all of the feelings of my infirmities (Hebrews 4:15), and is over the house of God of which I am a part (Hebrews 10:21), but I can't talk to my High Priest? (1 Timothy 2:5).
8. Christ is my Physician (Luke 5:31), but I can't talk to my Physician?
9. Christ is the Bishop of my soul(1 Peter 2:25), but I can't talk to my Bishop?
10. Christ is the Bridegroom of the church (His bride)(2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:22-33, but the bride can't talk to the bridegroom?
11. Christ is my "Counselor" (Isaiah 9:6), but I can't talk to my Counselor?
12. Christ is my Friend (John 15:14-15), but I can't talk to my Friend?
13. Christ is the "Great Shepherd of the sheep" (Hebrews 13:20), of which I am one, but I can't talk to my Shepherd?
14. Christ is the "Minister of the sanctuary" (Hebrews 8:2), of which I am a part, but I cannot talk to my Minister(servant)? Why, it is amazing to even contemplate! It is much more logical as well as abundantly Scriptural to "TELL IT TO JESUS."
Aren't those marvelous, G. Driggs? (I'm not going to post the link, since I don't think there's a copyright on these questions and answers. ;))
Last but not least: When Saul was struck down on the road to Damascus, Jesus said - Why are you persecuting Me? And when Saul responded, to Whom did he respond? Jesus or the Father?
Yes, I think we can pray to both. Try not to let it worry you. I hardly think the Father would forbid you to speak to your own Brother.
Love to you, G. Driggs.
Gina
p.s. Judy, I'm praying for you to have an answer to your prayers. Love to you, too.
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I just want to thank you all so much, ALL OF YOU, for these truths and loving the WORD OF GOD. I am just a sponge here.
This is amazing.
Love to you all,
Margo
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Thanks Gina and Kat, just wanted to make sure. I actually wanted that to be the answer. I forget sometimes that Jesus is the Mediator and understands us totally as human, Him having been so but without sin.
Where is that vs. 'He who loves Me, my Father in Heaven will love him and I will manifest myself to him" That's where the confusion came from because of a little word----I-----.
When I had a vision once many yrs. ago and saw for a few seconds the Majesty of God I thought it was the Father but now I see that mistake.
That vs. spoke volumes to me afterwards and at the time there wasn't any confusion but yrs. later there was because thinking back I wasn't sure exactly WHO that Majesty was. Did I go back to that vs., NO, Stupid, YES. Maybe more ignorant because of lack of scripture training use wherby i could have corrected it and a priest telling me that only saints had this happen and wanting to send me to the Bishop. Then I was really afraid because all I could think of was martydom. I never went.
By the way, I think Jesus gave me that because of my horrible situation which I wasn't prepared to handle nor did i have anyone else who could have stood up to my questioning. I wanted the truth and nothing else would have done it for me. This fact of His great mercy has never ceased to amaze me. I mean me. Why would he have given this to me who is no more than anyone else. So many people suffering and he came to me. My little normal life had nothing to give Him, nobody believed me anyway, so, i was alone again but hanging on to Him by a thread because of this ignorance. That vs, would have answered that question WHY also, because I did always love Him. Judy
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Hey, you're welcome, Judy. (That must have been some vision.) That vs is John 14:21 He who has My precepts [commandments] and is keeping them, he it is who is loving Me. Now he who is loving Me will be loved by My Father, and I shall be loving him and shall be disclosing [dis + closing = un-closing = opening up, as in, our understanding...] Myself to him."
Love to you, and I'm glad your prayers were answered.
And on behalf of all of those who posted, you're very welcome, Margo. Thank you as well!
Gina
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j i started reading this and it was beautiful thank you Kat for sharing about who the Father is i didn't remember reading this or hearing it any way i copy it and plan on just reading it again and again peggy
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Hi Zee,
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
In this Scripture we see that Christ says "I am... the beginning..." Can you see in this Scripture that He states plain restates what He said in Rev 3 :14, "the Beginning of the creation of God."
What it seems to me is Jesus was created to serve this creation. Maybe the Father always knew that there was going to be creation, whatever, but when the Father determined that it was time for it to be a creation, it was then that Jesus "came forth from the Father" (John 16). Jesus is the means... it was "by Him" which the Father does exactly what He wants with this creation... that is His purpose, He is over the creation.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus...
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God;
v. 3 all things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.
Just wanted to share with you these Scriptures.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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What a great thread! As a reader I want to thank everyone for their good questions and answers. Its so nice to see truth come forward from honest questions and answers instead of some denomination simply telling you what you are supposed to believe. I am very thankful for this site and all its contributors. you guys rock ;)
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Hi Zee,
Jesus was not created to serve this creation, instead this creation was created FOR JESUS. All things are ours, and we are Christ's and Christ is God's.
This is a much better way to state this than I did.
Rev 21:6 And2532 he said2036 unto me,3427 It is done.1096 I1473 am1510, (3588) Alpha1 and2532, (3588) Omega,5598 the3588 beginning746 and2532 the3588 end.5056 I1473 will give1325 unto him that is athirst1372 of1537 the3588 fountain4077 of the3588 water5204 of life2222 freely.1432
G5056 end - telos - From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost.
What is the final state, the conclusion or 'the end' for all of us? "Life in Christ Jesus."
Rom 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting (eonian) life.
v. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal (eonian)" life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
When the whole creation has been brought to Jesus Christ and "all things are put under Him," then He will have completed and brought to an end the salvation of the world. He is "the beginning" of the creation and He will provide the salvation for all of the creation, thus by Him will come "the end" of the work/plan "that God may be all in all." The final goal of God’s plan of redemption.
1Co 15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
v. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
He was the starting point for the creation and it will be by Him through which it will be brought to it's conclusion. That's how I see Him as "the beginning and the end."
mercy, peace and love
Kat