bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: TimothyVI on March 27, 2007, 09:04:40 PM
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Recently one of these threads had some disturbing posts by one of our brothers who was angry, and in obvious pain, because of recently learning that God did some pretty horrendous things in the old testament. A new Christian will generally start learning about the love of Jesus, reading about how God is love and about all of the wonderful things that God does for us out of love. The new testament is chock full of such glorious things.
A new Christian starts to look at Christianity through rose colored glasses.
Then all of a sudden this new believer sees a different God in the old testament. This God is very disturbing to us. Then as we read more about Him we may at first feel disgusted that our God could do these kinds of things that are told in the first five books of the bible. Eventually we may even become angry. Angry at God for what he did, angry with ourselves that we were fooled into believing how good God was when this God does not seem to be that good at all. Eventually this anger may turn into disbelief. You want to believe that the bible just plain isn’t even true. That the terrible things that God was supposed to have commanded were just made up.
When this happens the person may not know who to turn to for an explanation.
They do not want to hear things like “if God did it, then it had to be good, or it had to be moral”. If it was clearly an immoral act by any standard, that person does not want to hear that he must accept it because he can not question God’s methods.
God, after all, gave us a mind and a conscience for a reason, He intends for us to use them.
If that person is a member of this forum family, then he very well may not have an actual church family to help him. This may be the only place for that person to turn.
I am not questioning the closing of the thread by the moderators. Lord knows I appreciate how difficult their job must be. I realize that they have an obligation to maintain some semblance of harmony on this forum. I love them all for what they do.
I just wonder what we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, should do with the truly hard questions, the questions that Sorin had on his mind. If the actual scriptures that were posted are so distasteful that we must close down a thread rather than have to read them, or if the questions are so hard that we can not answer them, then perhaps the problem lies with each of us, and not with the person asking the questions.
When we deny that a problem exists because we are unable to deal with it, we are not much different than the Pharisees to whom Jesus said “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Moderators, feel free to close this thread, or delete it if you wish.
I love Rays teaching and the bibletruths site. I am just saddened that there is not more that we can do to help a brother who is obviously in spiritual pain.
Tim
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I feel the pain for our brother Sorin. I wonder about those questions but just not to that extent....Tim, what IS the answer?
That thread was loaded w/ love & wisdom. But it didn't answer the question. Maybe we don't know it yet.
There has to come a time in our walk where we give all those questions to God, humbly, and by faith, just knowing that we are nothing and He is Everything. Lord, tho you slay me yet will I follow thee...
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Dear Tim,
Although I appreciate your sensitivity concerning Sorin, I must admit that if I was a moderator I would have done the same as they. This isn't the first time this has happened, and who knows how many times they may have warned him. I think Tim, they are looking at the big picture and how many people we have looking at us each day. You have to say brother, that some of the things that were said were close to blasphemy. I do not think this forum should allow such negativity..that's not the purpose. Plus who's not to say that such a rebuke won't be beneficial. This was done many times in the New Testament. It doesn't mean that we don't love him. I understand that it is not the most pleasant way, but if there is another maybe some could recommend.
In Him,
Dwight
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Hi Tim,
The subject that was being discussed was not and easy topic, and sometimes we need to discuss these type things, that we may come to a better understanding of a matter.
That subject, in my opinion, was used to call into question God's righteousness. It was not immediately closed, but gave people a chance to answer this, which was done by quite a few. The answers were not excepted and the discussion began to heat up, as a cycle was beginning to develop of questioning God and people replying to that.
I do not feel that this kind of debate is appropriate or helpful for the forum. It is not a place to air your grieves against God. This forum is mainly a haven for those who want to fellowship and discuss BT. When there is discord and lack of agreement this disturbs the peace of the forum.
Nobody here can give someone else understanding unless God opens their eye, we can only share what we believe. The discussions we have are a good way to share what we believe, but if it erupts into a debate, then this needs to be resolved soon or it must be closed.
This is my personal understanding of how to apply the rules of this forum. If anyone disagrees with anything I have stated, please pm me and we will discuss it futher.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hello everyone,
May I suggest that we pray for our brother Sorin ~ as he is clearly going through spiritual warfare.
Love in Christ,
Lisa
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Dwight you wrote:
I think Tim, they are looking at the big picture and how many people we have looking at us each day. You have to say brother, that some of the things that were said were close to blasphemy. I do not think this forum should allow such negativity..that's not the purpose.
Dwight, I respect your opinion and agree with most of it; however, I could care less about the negativity if it is part of the rocky, twisted road to the truth. There was truth behind the Scriptures Sorin asked, and I for one was eager to learn. Not that I thought I had to, but truth is truth which becomes knowledge that is faith. What I would ask is that this forum does not become so political that negativity is viewed more negative than the truth is positive.
Sorin, I believe is hurting bad. He should be in all of our prayers. :)
Much love to you brother Dwight,
Love,
Darren
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I struggle hard every day to maintain my faith and fight off the spiritual attack against God's character in the middle of all the fiery trials.
It's one thing to question and put your honest questions before God and another thing to attack God's character.
My prayers go out for Sorin. It's a fierce battle for me and I can see the battle that he is in, but I do not think we should give blaspheme a voice on this forum. If I am ever caught in this snare I would hope that you would come against it with everything you have. It took the whole armour of God for me to be able to stand against what was written in that thread.
Revelation 13
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
James 4
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Ephesians 6
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
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Dear Tim,
Although I appreciate your sensitivity concerning Sorin, I must admit that if I was a moderator I would have done the same as they. This isn't the first time this has happened, and who knows how many times they may have warned him. I think Tim, they are looking at the big picture and how many people we have looking at us each day. You have to say brother, that some of the things that were said were close to blasphemy. I do not think this forum should allow such negativity..that's not the purpose. Plus who's not to say that such a rebuke won't be beneficial. This was done many times in the New Testament. It doesn't mean that we don't love him. I understand that it is not the most pleasant way, but if there is another maybe some could recommend.
In Him,
Dwight
Hi Dwight,
I am not questioning whether closing thee thread was right or not. If I was a moderator, I may have done the same thing.
I understand that they have rules to inforce on this forum.
I just do not know how to answer a new, struggling Christian who has the same questions as Sorin had.
If the bible tells us that God ordered children killed, then it is not blasphemy for us to repeat that GOd ordered children killed.
I also do not think that it is blasphemy to question why He would do such a thing.
It is, in my opinion, our duty as fellow Christians to have an answer for the questions though.
If we have no answer, God may lose another follower because of our inability to defend our belief.
Not defend God. He needs no defense. But defend our reasoning for not feeling the same as the person asking the
question.
This probably can not be answered in this forum. I know that my answers to Sorin would have been woefully inadequate.
In my private life I have new Christians starting to ask the same kind of things of me and I can't defend my own belief.
Tim
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Hi Tim,
The subject that was being discussed was not and easy topic, and sometimes we need to discuss these type things, that we may come to a better understanding of a matter.
That subject, in my opinion, was used to call into question God's righteousness. It was not immediately closed, but gave people a chance to answer this, which was done by quite a few. The answers were not excepted and the discussion began to heat up, as a cycle was beginning to develop of questioning God and people replying to that.
I do not feel that this kind of debate is appropriate or helpful for the forum. It is not a place to air your grieves against God. This forum is mainly a haven for those who want to fellowship and discuss BT. When there is discord and lack of agreement this disturbs the peace of the forum.
Nobody here can give someone else understanding unless God opens their eye, we can only share what we believe. The discussions we have are a good way to share what we believe, but if it erupts into a debate, then this needs to be resolved soon or it must be closed.
This is my personal understanding of how to apply the rules of this forum. If anyone disagrees with anything I have stated, please pm me and we will discuss it futher.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Believe me Kat, I do not question your actions.
I think that you are doing a wonderful job as moderator of this forum.
You are a blessing to Bibletruths.
Tim
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MG, Thank you so much for your post. :)
I agree with you about needing the whole armour of God after reading that post. Perhaps such posts should be deleted by the Mods as soon as they are discovered and the matter discussed privately between the said poster and the moderator, if the moderator so chooses.
Great Scriptures MG :)
We should remember them always! :)
Fare well Sorin, the prayers of many are with you.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Tim wrote:
I just do not know how to answer a new, struggling Christian who has the same questions as Sorin had. If the bible tells us that God ordered children killed, then it is not blasphemy for us to repeat that GOd ordered children killed. I also do not think that it is blasphemy to question why He would do such a thing. It is, in my opinion, our duty as fellow Christians to have an answer for the questions though. If we have no answer, God may lose another follower because of our inability to defend our belief. Not defend God. He needs no defense. But defend our reasoning for not feeling the same as the person asking the question.
Tim, well spoken; for I too would not know how to answer such questions and I would feel as if I have no basis for my faith. :(
As I posted earlier, and as you did, it cannot be blasphemy for us to repeat that GOd ordered children killed or women killed and raped. There MUST be sound reasoning behind such actions, for it is God who ordered such actions. That sound reasoning may be difficult to discern or comprehend, but there MUST be a TRUTHFUL way to answer such questions, other than shrugging ones shoulders and looking dumb. :)
Kat, do you know of any emails, papers in which Ray speaks on this subject. I for one would very much like to learn more on it.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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This happened to me yesterday when I was discussing the latest paper series on Hell that Ray posted. The person I was talking to, happened to ask a serious question about translation errors in bibles. It was along the lines of "Why wouldn't there be one PERFECTLY translated bible?" I couldn't recite the link to "Which Bible translation is best", so I told him I couldn't honestly answer his question.
This brother is one who questions a lot of things, and lately organized religion (which both he and I equate to a syndicate) is the thing that he has raised a ton of questions about. I could only assure him that when it was time, God would reveal His truths to him. He wanted me to show how God planned everything from the beginning and that nothing happened without Him knowing it (Isaiah 46:10), also how God works all things according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11). He also let me know that our conversation was the 3rd he had regarding scripture (he had watched John Hagee earlier in the day preaching about the end times in Revelation, and I told him to read Ray's critique of Hagee damnable "Seven Wonders Of Hell" sermon).
He also wondered if Ray is a false prophet. I reminded him that only God can open his eyes to the truth. And that (truth) was not something the Church world gets but God gives. He's beginning to see that the scriptures tell a 180 degree story that what the traditional chuch has been saying. But all we can do is give what the Spirit leads us to say to someone who is having a hard time digesting God's truths and ways. Sometimes "Silence Is Golden" because as Artucus noted those whom the Lord calls will "Hear my whisper".
Ches
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Hi Tim,
It is, in my opinion, our duty as fellow Christians to have an answer for the questions though.
If we have no answer, God may lose another follower because of our inability to defend our belief.
I don't think 'our' ability to answer someone question will cause that person to fail or not.
I do believe that God leads the person who has a question, as well as a person who gives an answer. "... all things according to the counsel of his will," (Eph 1:11). So it is not up to us, He will bring a person to understanding, when He so chooses.
It is not blasphemy to ask a question about something you do not understand, it is blasphemy to show disrespect for God in any way, I would think saying what He is doing is evil is very disrespectful to Him. That's not asking a question, that's a brazen opinion or blasphemy.
Darren, you suggest deleting posts.
I know that I only do this if I see a post that is blatantly teaching heresy or very rude to another member.
At this time, I just don't feel like I need to make the decision to lock a thread or ban a member. We have guys that have been doing this a lot longer than I have and can discern when this should be done. You don't see a lot of posts from the other mods, they have jobs and families and things to deal with. But they come in every day pretty much and check things out, if they see a problem they take care of it.
I am in a situation that I can spend time here to fellowship and share, that is a blessing for me. I love to read what others have to say and help out any way I can :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
You are doing a wonderful job :)
Please do not stop popping in and posting, because you are such a vital part of this (our) family.
Please forgive me if I offended you in anyway.
Love in Christ,
Your brother,
Darren
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Hi Tim,
It is, in my opinion, our duty as fellow Christians to have an answer for the questions though.
If we have no answer, God may lose another follower because of our inability to defend our belief.
I don't think 'our' ability to answer someone question will cause that person to fail or not.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
This may very well be true Kat. In fact, I believe that everything is of God myself.
But what if it was God's will, that it was supposed to be our answer, that caused the person
to NOT fail?
If I am unable to supply the answer, then I failed what Peter required of us.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
We should not expect God to accomplish all through devine interaction.
Some of what He wants to happen, He does through us.
Tim
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I actually bowed out of that thread as there did not seem to be a humble search for truth on Sorin's part, just one blasphemous accusation after another, this is not the first time we have patiently attempted to provide council to our Brother Sorin.
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Perhaps I missed something but I did not see a reasonable approach (by Sorin) in the manner he presented his questions, or any attempt at understanding the answers that were given to him.
Does God need to prove Himself to us or do we need to pray for the understanding of His Wisdom and ways, which are above our wisdom and ways (methods)?
We are compared to clay or pottery subject to the authority of the Master Potter.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
God created us and owns us part and parcel He can do with us as He pleases and in faith we not only accept this but praise Him for His plan of redemption and for the example of His Son our Lord.
In an earlier version of this topic I asked if it could be considered theft or vandalism if I went to a friend’s house and took a sledgehammer to his oil burning, unreliable 1973 Chevy Vega and had it towed away. After the mess was cleaned up (also by me) I had a brand new vehicle delivered to him that I paid for entirely, would that be an evil thing?
If God destroys this temporal corruptible flesh and replaces it with an incorruptible immortal spiritual body is that something we should despise? Only if we love and worship the beast within more than we love Him.
Let's also not forget that the OT is not just a history of Israel but a prophecy of the spiritual Kingdom, the utter destruction described in many parts of the OT are prophecies of the eventual and total death of all carnal action and thought in all creation.
Any questions asked in a humble manner where truth is being sought should be treated with patience and longsuffering, I saw none of this (humble spirit) in that thread's premise.
Pro 26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.
1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
I am not sure that this was an actual sincere quest for understanding, it seems apparent to me that this was a deliberate attempt to cause strife and division, should we give this type of action a podium here? Should it be tolerated limitlessly?
There have been more than a few that have done this in the past and there will be more in the future, we moderators purposely err on the side of caution but there is no godly purpose in continually giving heed to insincere questions and blasphemous statements in the name of tolerance.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joe
You made the right call. I have been offline for one week and see numerous new contributors , they nor we need to be thrown into a contentious group. If we have a hard question we need to listen hard to our fellow members, not create strife.
Askseeknock
Charlie o
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I don't usually get into threads like this one(and the other one) because I don't feel I have anything worthwhile to add to the discussions, so I just stay on the sidelines and lurk.
While I was reading these threads a scripture came to mind so I thought I would throw it out there.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.
Jehovah God is a perfect God, and everything he does is perfect. We may not be able, right now, to see this. But as the light gets brighter and our eyes are opened wider, one day we will be able to understand.
As Joe said God created us and owns us part and parcel He can do with us as he pleases and in faith we not only accept this but praise Him for His plan of redemption and for the example of His Son our Lord.
Iris
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Hi Tim,
If I am unable to supply the answer, then I failed what Peter required of us.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
I agree that we should give an answer, if we have the understanding.
Minsters in the church are ready to give answers all the time, but it's the wrong answer.
There is more to this "be ready always to give an answer," ready also means prepared. We want to be sure our answer is scriptural. With eSword at my fingertips, it's easier to answer here.
But I think wrong answers are worse than no answer.
2Tim 2:14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
v. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
v. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
So we have to "rightly handle the Word of Truth."
We do not want to cause someone to be more confused.
But it we are blessed with understanding, then we have a joy in sharing it.
Psa 119:130 The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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To add to what has already been truthfully, Scripturally and beautifully shared.
2 Cor3 : 13 - 17 Nor do WE act like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze upon the finish of the vanishing splendor which had been upon it. 14. In fact, their minds were grown hard and calloused, they had become dull and had lost the power of understanding: for until THIS PRESENT DAY, when the Old Testament, the old covenant is being read, that same veil still lies on their hearts, not being lifted to reveal that IN CHRIST IT IS MADE VOID AND DONE AWAY. 15 Yes, down to THIS VERY DAY whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their minds and hearts 16. But whenever a person turns in repentance to the Lord, the veil is striped off and taken away.
Tim I too have extended my fellowship to Sorin. I did not recieve any response but saddly saw that he went from bad to worse regarding his grieviences with our Father God and His Son. For whoesoever loves the Son loves also the Father. The Son is the God of the OT which Sorin was pointing fingers at by the way.
I believe that our time here in Forums is precious to us all. Each word we have for one another and our sharing of our like mindedness is for the purpose of building faith, edification and encouragement. When our faith is ignored or slighted or our God is defamed we should not be lukewarm!
If you notice, it is not so much about what questions are asked it is more about HOW they are asked and HOW the answers are received. Not knowing everything and not understanding everything is okay. Rebellion, rejection, arrogance and offence and abuse of our opportunity to love one another here, is quite a different story. To discern we can ask is this going...my way, your way or God's way?
To witness to the first Scripture on this post here's another :
1 cor 5 :7 Purge, clean out the old leaven that you may be fresh new dough, still uncontaminated as you are, for Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed.
2 cor 5 : 17 Therefore if any person is in-grafted in Christ, he is a new creation, a new creature altogether; the old previous moral and spiritual condition HAS PASSED AWAY. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
Eh 4 : 22 Strip yourselves of your former nature, put off AND DISCARD your old inerrant self, which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion;
This last Scripture makes me think of the OT being the former nature, the old leaven because Christ has come, died, risen and is coming again.
Here is the encouragement that unites with all who love God that we are Heb 12 : 2 Looking away from all that will distract, to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith....3 JUST THINK OF HIM who endured from sinners such grievous opposition and bitter hostility......
If our conversation is giving glory to my way or your way, then we can be sure it is not God's way and it will not be to HIS Glory. It is a mercy that the Mods are here and that ignorance is nipped in the bud!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Giving an answer to people who ask hard questions is not always an easy task. Ray pointed out that, Jesus did not have one convert in His entire ministry while He was on this earth. Could He have done it? Sure... He could have...He's the Son of God. But would He do it....NO! Why?
"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." Luke, 8:10
Not everybody gets to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. I read the scriptures for fifty years...memorized thousands of verses...went to Bible college...studied Greek....Pastored a church...counseled hundreds of people....baptized scores....and I was blind as a bat. Looking back, I can see it was all the Lord's doing. I needed my spiritual house, that was built on the sand to fall, and then I needed to fall. Now, not one of all the people that I have just told about, knows anything of what you all have seen here. As much as I try, they still don't see. It's all a parable.
Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
But without a parable spake he not unto them...Mark 4:34.
Don't beat yourself up if you can't explain the mysteries of the kingdom, it's His to give.
Your brother,
Dwight
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Dwight, I agree with you.
Jer 30: 5-8 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, THAT I WILL BREAK HIS YOKE FROM OFF THY NECK, AND WILL BURST THY BONDS, AND STRANGERS SHALL NO MORE SERVE THEMSELVES OF HIM:
Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentence, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, THAT GOD IS ABLE OF THESE STONES TO RAISE UP CHILDREN UNTO ABRAHAM.
In His mercy,
Lisa
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As far as I'm concerned, if God hasn't given us the discernment to be able to answer questions, just say I don't know but I'll see if if I can find out, or something like that. I agree with those who say to give the churchian answer is worse than no answer...otherwise we are just boasting, all the while showing our ignorance.
As for Sorin, I don't know what he said but half the folks I know at one time blamed God for something or blamed Christ for something. If Sorin is to be led back only God can do it using one of us or not. Was he blasphemous? If he really was then expose this, but let's not judge the guy.
Deb aka snorky
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I agree with you Deb :)
Sorin is a brother and he has made me smile and then made me think on any number of occasions.
I think we are (at least this is how I feel) that many are judging Sorin as perhaps being blasphemous against God, but how?? ???
He posted Scripture that most of us have read over time. Did I understand? No, I did not then and I do not now.
I know our sister Kat said that his questions were answered, but were they. Is there any one here that fully understands the motive and the truth behinds God's obvious about face on some pretty horrendous acts. I think there has been so much focus on "what happened" that the real question was lost. :(
If I were asked the same question tonight, I would not be able to in any honesty, give a truthful answer, other than God was teaching us something, but WHAT? I do not know.
So please, can anyone shed any light on the Scriptures that Sorin posted? I will try to do a little research myself. The truth has to stand taller and stronger than negativity, else why bother having truth? :)
This is a totally genuine post, I would love to learn.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Does the statement "God is evil" rise to the level of blasphemy?
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy988, filthy communication out of your mouth.
G988
βλασφημία
blasphēmia
blas-fay-me'-ah
From G989; vilification (especially against God): - blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.
Noun 1. vilification - slanderous defamation
malignment, smear
calumny, defamation, hatchet job, traducement, obloquy - a malicious attack
2. vilification - a rude expression intended to offend or hurt; "when a student made a stupid mistake he spared them no abuse"; "they yelled insults at the visiting team"
(Synonyms)
contumely, insult, revilement, abuse
discourtesy, disrespect - an expression of lack of respect
low blow - unscrupulous abuse
billingsgate, scurrility - foul-mouthed or obscene abuse
stinger, cut - a remark capable of wounding mentally; "the unkindest cut of all"
invective, vituperation, vitriol - abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will
Does this type of communication really have a place here? Is this the purpose of Bible Truths in anyone's opinion?
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Dear brother Darren,
That is a very sincere and genuine way to seek the truth. I really appreciate the way you feel and your desire to know the truth as we all do.
The pot just can't tell what the Potter's doing until the pot is finished. As Ray has said, the bible is one, and all the bible is one giant parable. Jesus....is.....was....and....will be.... He was the same in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. He has never changed. The kingdom of God is within you. It's in your spirit. His Spirit and our spirit are one. God is one and we all are one in Him.
To show us how He wants us to live and obey Him, He gave us the Old Testament as an example of what He would do in our lives to make us into His likeness. It is no secret, that in us, that is in our flesh, dwells no good thing. We have kings and beasts in us...we have principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world in our flesh. We have giants in the land in our flesh. We have armies that defy the living God in our flesh. We have every evil and imaginable idol in our hearts. God will drive out all of them from our flesh by leaving nothing that will breathe or have a chance to live. He will burn and grind it to powder until there is not one inhabitant of the land left.
Most of us still have a lot of these inhabitants left in us. I know I do. But God has not changed. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. This same loving, meek and humble Lord Jesus was the same in the Old Testament. All that He did in the Old Testament only looks bad from the flesh. Because the flesh or the carnal mind is enmity against God and it is not subject to the law of God because it is impossible. We cannot see what God was doing in the Old Testament with our flesh. Our flesh is the enemy of God. Those Jebusites, Amonites and Canaanites and all their wives and all their children are in us...in our flesh....and all the gods and idols that they worshipped are in us...in our flesh. And the land that they live on belongs to God and God will bring His Sword and fire out of His mouth to devour all of them.
The Old Testament may be a type but it's real in us. I hope this helps a little brother, I know that others can explain it much better than I, but Praise God we have Ray, who I think will explain alot more of this in Nashville. God bless you brother.
In Him,
Dwight
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Joe, as usual, you clear the smog that allows me to see.
Clearly, we were both seeing different things through different eyes. :) I seen less of the blaspheme than a hurt and somewhat angry brother, to be truthful, this saddened me. You of course had to see past this. :)
You and all of the mods are tasked with not only seeing through the eyes of the brethren but also through the eyes of the innocents and those seeking nothing but trouble. Of course, it takes only a spark to start a raging inferno.
You are so very right and I so humbly agree, that blasphemy should have no place in this forum. It was not the question but the intent. Although I always see this, it was not until your post that I finally got it.
I was focusing on the question and you and the mods were focusing on the good name of the forum and good works of Ray.
Thanks Joe.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Thank you Dwight.
I agree and have experienced much of this and still have much to go. If I were to take my eyes off the spiritual meaning I would be tempted to think of this work as evil and torment. It is the very work of salvation. It is not pleasing to the flesh. It is suffering through fiery trials. It is the complete destruction of all that is within me that is not of God. This is why I loved Ray's teaching about being saved. It is the hardest thing any of us will ever do in all of eternity.
1 Peter 4
1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
I think God gives his own answer in Deuteronomy 7 concerning the physical destruction of these nations in the old testament. I can't answer it any better than he did himself.
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Dwight my brother, I thank you for your thoughtful and timely post. :)
You mentioned that Jesus....is.....was....and....will be.... And of course this can be supportedwith Scripture. :)
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
You then added: :)
He was the same in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament.
This is where the rubber begins to leave the road, because for the average reader seeking truth or something to blaspheme, the following four verses, two referencing Jehovah and two of Jesus Christ.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Nah 1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.
Here we see a jealous God and an unforgiving God. Jehovah God is said to be Furious and Revengence (naqam {naw-kam'}) 1413
And is given the following meaning:
1) to avenge, take vengeance, revenge, avenge oneself, be avenged, be punished
a) (Qal)
1) to avenge, take vengeance
2) to entertain revengeful feelings
b) (Niphal)
1) to avenge oneself
2) to suffer vengeance
c) (Piel) to avenge
d) (Hophal) to be avenged, vengeance be taken (for blood)
e) (Hithpael) to avenge oneself
This would seem to be in stark contrast to Jesus Christ
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Here through Christs own words are told that he will not judge but rather to save the world. Not only the righteous but sinners as well.
Where at first we are told he will not "forgive your transgressions nor your sins" and then that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."
To the unlearned, this apparent contradiction would see insurmountable. :)
I know differently, but I truly have a hard time expressing this knowledge in words that convey intent. ???
Eggi posted the following Scripture and I am very grateful for it :)
Jer 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Is there a simple answer that explains why? I think we would all agree that although the plan may not have changed, the focus certainly did.
Just some thoughts concerning an issue that is close to my heart.
Thank you my dear brother,
In Christ with Love,
Darren
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I'm tiring of this whole discussion, did anyone actually read what was asked? All these questions came from a site called evilbible. This forum is not here to promote any site that is full of lies and blasphamy. I will revisit the questions, I will not post all the was stated in these "questions"
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
You can look up the post , it said God approved of what happened. I see nowhere in that scripture that said, God condoned it, but I do see where the evil of men, did do that. If you read a little further verse 25 it states "In those days there was no king in Israel. Every man did the right in his own eyes." MKJV
Sounds sort of like today huh?
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
No God clearly didn't approve of this, God did tell Moses to destroy the Midianites and verse 31:16 states that God was angry that they saved the women. Moses is who told them to take the virgins, the only thing else attributed to God in these verses is that they were to purify themselves according to the law.
The rest sounds to me like the religious leaders were making it up as they went.
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
This one is a hard question for me. Times were tough back then, and wars were fought as God worked out the history of His people. When tribes were destroyed (to make room for the jews) The children and women were left alone. I think that God took care of them by having the israelites provide for them, else what would happen to them? I'll tell you what, they would have starved because there was no food, shelters or providers left to care for them. I think there is an even better answer to this question, but I can't find it right now. I will have to dig a little to get this out.
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
On first look it would appear they are talking rape, but it is consensual sex. Read verse 25, it is definately talking about rape, if rape is to be also applied to verse 28 why would'nt the author use the same words?
Also Exodus (22:16-17, "And if a man lures a virgin who is not promised, and lies with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.") gives witness to the the example in verse 28.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24
The girl in this example is also not raped, it is consensual. Verses 25-26 will attest to this. Also the girl wouldn't be called evil if she hadn't participated in the sin.
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14)
David was punished for the evil he did, and he was punished all the days of his life. His child was struck ill, the innocent child is God's, I'm sure God has/will take good care of him. Who are we to question God taking the child from David?
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
There is nothing forceable here. If you are a women back thousands of years ago and the men of your family were killed, you wouldn't be able to survive on your own. If a member of the conquering army wanted you as a wife, provisions were made that you would live with the man (no sex) for a month and then if you were not compatible then you were free to leave. The man had no claim to you at all verse 14
8] Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30)
Has nothing to do with God saying to do this, the mother of Sisera was asking using a bit of sarcasm. v28-29
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11)
The poster EB writer in this instance likes to call the maiden a "sex slave" She was sold as a maid or maidservant, probably not willfully on her part. But if the master becomes engaged to her. After this if he changes his mind then he will set her free, if she becomes engaged to his son then he will treat her as a daughter.
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2)
God didn't assist anything. God let the people know what judgement was awaiting them because of what they did. Could God have stopped it? Sure, but they reaped what they sowed. And the evil of mankind did the rest.
A person could go into much more detail over these things, I won't. I have no need to question God in these matters as I know who my God is and trust his wisdom to work things out for the good. Ray has said pay attention to the words, that is what I tried to do (and I could be wrong.) I'm no teacher and don't claim to be, but questions are being raised that in my opinion is not even a question. The language and understanding from then to now is probably the only thing that causes any of us to stop and scratch our heads. And to give the EB folks any credence is a total waste of time IMO.
And I agree that we should not be judging the poster over this, they are obviously struggling now, but that is of God and nobody here can fix that.
I really want this thread to end now. These are tough questions to be answered but I'm not sure we are able to answer them all in this age. And we can only give our opinions anyway, I for one don't trust mine completely, but my spirit isn't fighting me on this either.
Blessings
Craig
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Thank you Kittyhawk,
I said that I wish Ray would write something to help with understanding
the old testament carnage. It appears that he did. I am just not good at finding
these things in his emails. Kat usually helps with that.
Tim
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I'm tiring of this whole discussion, did anyone actually read what was asked? All these questions came from a site called evilbible. This forum is not here to promote any site that is full of lies and blasphamy. I will revisit the questions, I will not post all the was stated in these "questions"
Hi Craig,
I had never heard of the evil bible site until this post.
I did not realize that any other site was being promoted by sorin.
I only read his personal commentary to see what upset him.
The scriptures that he quoted are in the old testament.
Tim
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I really want this thread to end now. These are tough questions to be answered but I'm not sure we are able to answer them all in this age. And we can only give our opinions anyway, I for one don't trust mine completely, but my spirit isn't fighting me on this either.
Blessings
Craig[/color]
Hi Craig,
Of course you can end this thread immediately if you choose.
But I do not think that it has gotten out of hand. I have actually gotten some pretty
good advice from it, and some things to study and work on so that
I am better able to offer help to someone going through what sorin seems to be going through.
When a new Christian starts to see only the evil in God, it is satan working in them.
Satan would love for us to see only bad things in the word of God.
God will draw them back, but He does that many times through His other children.
I still say that it is our duty to study so that we can give answers.
Not having the answers is not an excuse once you know that you do not have that answer.
Tim
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Hi Craig,
I had never heard of the evil bible site until this post.
I did not realize that any other site was being promoted by sorin.
Tim
Hi Tim,
That and other (more severely) offensive posts had previously been deleted by moderators, the bottom line is that strident proclaimations are not of the same spirit as questions asked in a humble, inquisitive manner.
I think this topic Craig posted a while back is appropriate in answering some of the questions posted lately;
"How This Forum is Moderated"
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html
His Peace to you,
Joe
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I do believe we NEED to know what we believe. That requires study and getting in a quiet place with God. It is fine to fellowship with others and discuss things but it really boils down to that "still small voice" the Bible speaks of. That voice is the Holy Spirit in us. This forum speaks a lot of Babylon and coming out of Babylon. Not all churches are what is seen on t.v. or in towns where they are so huge and take in so much money. How is it that all are lumped together? It is almost like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Since I came back, I don't feel the welcoming and loving spirit I once did. Maybe that is just me being on the outside. Why remove a post if someone is not preaching but just asking questions or sharing their own ideas? Jennie
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I am sorry you feel that way about us Jennie! :( I hope you get right back and comfortable again real soon.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Jennie,
You said "This forum speaks a lot of Babylon and coming out of Babylon. Not all churches are what is seen on t.v. or in towns where they are so huge and take in so much money. How is it that all are lumped together? It is almost like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Since I came back, I don't feel the welcoming and loving spirit I once did."
Some on this forum have left the church, but not all.
I still belong to a small country church. I differ with much of what they preach.
But they are all good people who do a lot of good for our community as well as
other places in the world.
God still has a very active need for the churches. When God is ready to bring
someone to Christ, He usually does it through one of the churches.
Can a person "out grow" the need for a church. Sure he can. But does he have to
outgrow the need for a church in the eyes of God. I think not.
I still belong to a church because I enjoy the fellowship and belonging.
God will not condemn me for that. But on the other hand, if I were to leave my church
tomorrow, and continue to study the word of God, and spend time with hhim in prayer,
then I am certain that he would not condemn me for that either.
It all depends on your position in your journey of being created in His image.
I am sorry that you do not feel the welcoming and loving spirit that you did at one time.
It is still here. But in every gathering of people there are waves of emotions that
roll in and roll out just like the waves on a beach. When they roll in we feel incredible togetherness,
when they roll out we feel alone. It seems different when they go out but I think that we need the waves
to make the beach clean and beautiful.
Welcome back Jennie. ;D
Tim
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Tim,
Beautiful post.
Joe
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Sometimes God doesn't give me immediate answers to all my questions. Sometimes he holds off on the answer on purpose. I've been through many tests of my faith having to wait for an answer. I put the question before God and then wait. I've waited many years for some answers and gone through a great test of my faith while I was waiting. He has never failed to answer a question yet.
There are many times when he needs to prepare me to receive the truth. Truth to me is the process of being molded into the image of Christ. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. I'm not always ready to receive him on a deeper spiritual level. The truth that I receive now probably would have killed me 25 years ago. I was not prepared. In the beginning I used to kick and stomp my feet wanting answers "right now". I've learned patience over the years. I know now that the trials prepare me to receive more when I'm ready. When I receive the truth in ground that is prepared it will stay with me and produce fruit. Until then all I can say is I don't know the answer because God hasn't revealed it to me yet. I also try to be accountable with my questions. Sometimes I feel a little desperate in the middle of a trial and ask a question that does not have much faith attached to it, but I try not to ask questions that may weaken someone else's faith. There are some questions the evil one uses on me to attack my faith. I don't want to pass that on to others.
Mark 4
3Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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I am sorry if I was abrasive or offensive to anyone. I know that all here are"like-minded" and that is the forum rules. I feel strongly that in casting comments about anyone in "Babylon" is a judgemental thing. It seems to be no different than churches saying"if you don't agree with us you are deceived by satan ". Just my country take on it, Jennie
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No need for you to apologize Jennie,
You were neither abrasive or offensive.
You just sounded like you returned and found a different place.
Tim
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One of the first things I was taught in Mystery Babylon was, don’t criticise the hierarchy. Agree with everything they say and bow to everything they teach even if you do not agree. In short they taught double standard, two faced hypocrisy.
This was how Mystery Babylon disarmed opposition and put a guilt trip on anyone who would expose them. The guilt trip was so heavy; I felt that even to think bad thoughts about a person preaching heresy was going to send me to hell. The influence was paralysing and this was part of the bondage because Mystery Babylon taught me not to think but to rely on the opinion of their “holiness” . Excuse me! This practise is like anesthetising a person so they can not move against the deluge of deception that follows through their assumed piety.
The leaders in Mystery Babylon have got idols of the heart. They KNOW the truth and have turned away in order to glean the merits from making merchandise of the sheep.
The sheep in Mystery Babylon have learnt double standards, are bound in fear, lead by attachments to the external and carnal niceties and are addicted to the traditions of man and the social gleanings that such practises offer to the flesh. I used to be a highly esteemed Minister of the Word in the Roman Catholic Church and then after leaving the Church I rapidly became a Cell Leader in a Pentecostal Church .
Little by little I came out of hypocrisy and idolatry of my own heart. This happened because Jesus caused it to happen. I could do nothing to make it happen. God created the division between me and Mystery Babylon. The process through which I have come to be where I am now took all of my nearly 50 years and had nothing to do with any merit I can have claimed. Everything is of Christ who caused me to experience the many things I have passed through. It is a process. There is no quick fix but when the fix comes it can be quick and hard painful and beneficial at the same time like pulling off a plaster, that has been covering or protecting a wound, with a rapid and deft authority to open it up to the light. That is what Bible Truths has been for me. A beneficial, rapid and deft authority!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
I agree wholeheartedly that what you say is prevalent in varying degrees in all churches.
I would guess that starting with the Catholic church being the most like your description,
working it's way down through all of the other denominations.
My church is a fairly liberal, multi denominational church, and we are encouraged to go along
with the program so to speak. Not cause division by questioning what is taught.
However, my Pastor knows that I disagree with much of what he teaches. We discuss it at
length in private. And yet, we agree to disagree.
I consider him one of my best friends. Many times though, I feel like he believes one thing, but
must teach another because of his allegiance to the church.
It was truly refreshing to me to hear a past minister of the church confess what you have said Arcturus.
I know I will never hear my Pastor friend confess that. I love him just the same.
For now I think that Jesus wants me to stay in the church for a reason. And as I said before, He uses the churches
for his purpose. In my circle of Christ following aquaintenances, every single one of them first
came to know Christ through a church.
Tim
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He uses the churches
for his purpose. In my circle of Christ following aquaintenances, every single one of them first
came to know Christ through a church.
Thanks Tim,
We should all remember, I dare say 95% of those here, started with the church. Just because some of us have come out and no longer partake in her plagues, does not make anyone any better than a brother or sister that is not there yet in their journey. ALL is of God, and His plans will not be thwarted.
Blessings
Craig
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Hello Tim
That was a lovely response. Thank you brother. It is so wonderful that your Pastor is at the maturity to agree to disagree. Only God in HIS goodness can bring repentance. I think your relationship must be exercising you both in very positive ways!
...Craig
...as I learnt through our dear brother Dwight...no one has COME OUT yet just like no one is saved or born again. No one is elect yet. We are all called and the few chosen are in training and judgement and are waiting for the return of Christ.
I believe that! ;D
Also the Elect have to come through Mystery Babylon not via any other route as I understand it. Is this not what we are taught here somewhere? We know Christ visits the Church to drag out who He chooses. We are at different points of the drag :D I pray I am found worthy to stand when Christ comes again.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)