bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: acomplishedartis on February 10, 2009, 08:42:06 PM
-
What we say it’s just as important to who we say it, where we say it, and when, right? Even if we would come to know important answers or have much ability on speech, what would be the reason to split all out if we don’t find yet ourselves on a position where our words can worth enough to don’t let us bleeding on the ground?
Conversation is to move ideas and concepts all around, but then I am starting to believe that there might be no such thing as ‘‘safe conversations’’ (I mean; conversation with out showing your position or staying ‘‘supposedly’’ neutral).
I have thought that Jesus as a child knew well his position with others; this was his time of learning to become strong in spirit and then start the real fighting (I mean; to use all his good speech full of meanings and mystery).
I find it hard to find often my position; yet I am still waiting for when my time to real fighting comes. Yes, what matter is the motivation of our hearts when we speak and I believe that we must work with what we already have.
How do you deal with these overwhelming over-thinking about understanding your position with what you already know?
And then… this is all just part of our journey as well, right?
moises
-
Hi Moises,
Patience and Longsuffering is something we are all learning. Remember those are Fruits of The Spirit.
If it was easy we could do it ourselves, GOD HAS Chosen for us to learn this way Brother.
Psa 86:15
But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
Rom 5: 3-4
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Gal 5: 22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
2Ti 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
george. :)
-
Hi Moises,
I have toiled with these same thoughts. I just recently had a conversation with my husband telling him that I question my motives for wanting to reveal my beliefs to my brothers and sisters. I am from a large catholic family. Everyone attends church on sundays. I have always been somewhat of the black sheep of my family and being the second youngest, I have always felt that they didn't respect my thoughts or opinions on important subjects. Now I feel like I know so much more than any of them in regard to faith and Jesus Christ and the scriptures. I am certain that more than half of the scriptures discussed here they have never read. The catholic church is not a "bible" church. They are more about doctrines and dogma. I now see most of my brothers, sisters and mother all about the physical. Whereas now I am about the spiritual. Now, do I want to share these truths with them because I feel strongly about my beliefs, or do I just want to say "ha ha, you all thought I was a nobody but God is calling ME!", or is it because I feel like I am living a lie by allowing them to think that I am still a practicing catholic (which I have not been for almost a year). I tend to think it's a little of all the above. I have decided to just let God lead me and accept that whatever I do or whatever I say is His will.
Eileen
-
Hello Eileen,
Greetings my sister in the Lord. This is the first time I've corresponded with you and it seems that we're so connected as all of us are here on the forum. I am constantly amazed at how much we all have in common. Black sheep of our family, overlooked, deemed as incompetent and controversial when it comes to the word of God. The list goes on and on. To me that's another confirmation that something real special is going on here.
I too wrestle with how to share this truth with my folks. Since I've been the one to question so much they feel that I am "leaning to my own understanding". I went out with my mother last week for my birthday and I wanted to ask her some questions in regards to the origin of Satan. I brought up the scriptures in Isaiah and Ezekiel and asked her if she knew of any other witnesses to confirm this theory and she stated that the scripture in Revelations confirms that Satan and his angels were cast out. Though it doesn't state from where they were cast out she believes this corroborates the story of Satan once being an angel in heaven..etc..etc. I didn't want to get in an argument on my birthday, so I chose not to be adamant about the subject.
My father is an elder in the church and he's very worried about me. He calls and leaves messages on my phone to console me as if I'm very depressed and lost. I want to scream this truth to them because I have waited SOOO long to receive some type of consolation in regards to the feelings I've had for years. I too wonder whether or not my motives are pure and so I have abstained from bringing the subject up to the majority of my family. The truth is so overwhelming it's very hard for me not to share it, especially since I love to converse about things of the Spirit.
With that being said, I deeply feel that our time is coming. I can't imagine that God would reveal such wonderful truths to us, for us to just bury them. Scripture states in Matt 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world, a city that is set on a hill cannot be hid". God will definitely get the glory out of our lives. The only thing that somewhat saddens me is I don't believe that most of my family will "get it" in this lifetime. However, I still praise and thank God because I know that everything, especially in our lives, is happening according to God's perfect plan. (Roms. 8:28)
George and Rodger the scriptures you posted are very encouraging. I ask for you all to continue to pray for me, as I know you are, that God grants me the fruit of the spirit temperance, patience and longsuffering. I definitely know how you feel Eileen, but I know I have to stay humble. I can understand even more clearly now why God gave Paul the thorn in the flesh, because of the abundance of revelations he'd receive. (2 Corithians 12:7) I guess we have to brace ourselves for our thorn. It's mandatory isn't it?
May God bless all my sisters and brothers in Christ,
Charles
-
I have to admit that most of the reasons for my not actively sharing the good news more are related to sin...fear, primarily, but laziness too. But there is also a sense that I don't want to dishonor the Truth by not being prepared and ending up laying on the ground bleeding, like you said.
I know that I am not saving myself. I left the church years ago in great part because I wasn't much of a Christian and didn't want to be just another hypocrite. So there is a part of me that is concerned that I am still lacking 'something' in moral or character terms that disqualifies me from being more outspoken. This too is 'up to God'.
There is so much to learn, both in Doctrine AND in character, before we (I) can hope to be effective. Yet even with a little light, the Gospel we carry is brighter than the darkness of the world. We are His workmanship, and nothing we do is outside His influence. That's the 'rest' I am striving to enter. What a predicament.
-
I have to admit that most of the reasons for my not actively sharing the good news more are related to sin...fear, primarily, but laziness too. But there is also a sense that I don't want to dishonor the Truth by not being prepared and ending up laying on the ground bleeding, like you said.
I totally understand this. I think the worst thing would be for me to butcher the Word and left to look as though I was clueless.
Eileen
-
Hi Moises,
Patience and Longsuffering is something we are all learning. Remember those are Fruits of The Spirit.
If it was easy we could do it ourselves, GOD HAS Chosen for us to learn this way Brother.
Psa 86:15
But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
Rom 5: 3-4
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Gal 5: 22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
2Ti 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
george. :)
hi goerge
thanks for your words. Patience and 'learning time' is what i was talking about, Longsufferings is the only way. I appreciate your encouragement.
about 2Tim. 4:2, Why would we want to preach when it's not opportune?
Corcondant Version
2Tim. 4:2
Herald the word. Stand by it, opportunely, inopportunely, expose, rebuke, entreat, with all patience and teaching.
-
Hi Moises,
I learn patience everyday, that takes time and longsuffering, keep going brother.
george. :)
-
Hi Eileen
I think that we reveal part of our believes very often when we share our thoughts and opinions. And as we all agree, whatever happen it is all part of the journey.
Dave in teen, It is always a good wish to don't dishonor the Truth. Even if we just have that little light that you talked about.
-
Roy Martin....thank you for sharing your story. I may need to stop and smell the roses as I am sure there are a lot of times when God wanted to talk to me and I just walked past.
Heidi
-
You know the truth is we don't really know what happened to Jesus and how he learned things. We can know that God set the limits of each phase of his life because that's how God operates! some things are just mysteries to us until God reveals it to us. I don't even question how he learned things because God was in control of what Jesus couldn't control as a child, I KNOW he was carefully guarded as a child and until he began his ministry we don't know anything at all. To me that is one of those wonderful mysteries that we will know someday! There are just some things that we don't need to know yet! it's kind of like when your 4 year old comes up and asks you, "Where do babies come from?" He doesn't need to know the WHOLE story until he is mature enough to understand it. Now that's just the way I see it, no big philosophical idea just my perspective.
Don't you think Jesus learned much the same way we do? By living his life daily for 30 years besides what God may have revealed in and to him. We live, we learn. Jesus had to experience some of that in order to be human enough to understand what our life was like. Maybe this is not right, but it's the way I see it!
Kathy
-
Kathy I think Rodger did an excellent post to show how Jesus learned and lived
I agree that the Spiritual Knowledge was revealed to Him.
But he also was also taught.
Hebrews5
8 even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered.
This is why i talked about His learning time to become strong in spirit
Luke2
52 And Jesus progressed in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
40 Now the little Boy grows up and was staunch in spirit, being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on Him.
What i am stating is let us be careful applying common false practises of the dead church, like applying lesser human nature to God and Jesus. Everything Jesus gained as KNOWLEDGE is in a REVELATION God gave Jesus.
Should Jesus need a teacher undoubtedly it would have been the Holy Spirit or God.
Suffering was no teacher to Jesus. The Holy Spirit or God, Revealed this Knowledge to Jesus, the Obedience to the Will of the Farther way before Jesus suffered. Can you understand this simple Truth.
Keeping with this Scriptural Truth.
John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Lets try this translation and let the Holy Spirit REVEAL this KNOWLEDGE to us.
Hebrews 5:8 And though he was a Son, through the pain which he underwent, the knowledge came to him of what it was to be under God's orders;
Lets us stay with the Truth of comparing Spirit with Spirit.
The Knowledge came to Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit or God.
Long before Jesus was to suffer he already KNEW why he is to suffer for the sake of the whole world's sin.
Long before Jesus is crucified , he KNEW why he was to die.
Jesus long KNEW before judas betrayed him why he was to be betrayed and handed over to the guards.
It was never any physical actions of suffering , dying, nor betrayal that taught Jesus anything of the Spirit.
Nothing of this world can TEACH Jesus anything of the the Father. Only by way of That which the Holy Spirit or God REVEALED to Jesus .
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
There is God, then Jesus , then man. Is this agreeable and True.
God gives to Jesus a Revelation, Jesus gives to man the same Revelation God gave to him.
This Revelation acknowledge to Jesus who he WAS, IS, AND WILL BE and was not taught by anything Physical.
Only God Spirit is capable of revealing Knowledge to Jesus, so that Jesus ascends the status as our MASTER Teacher. Just as Ray has learned by:::
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:
I have posted enough to show Jesus GAINED Knowledge by the God through Revelation. Where you go with it is your choice by Will of God.
Peace and Growth
Rodger
We may not understand HOW the spirit works but we are told in the sciptures over and over that it does.
This topic is about sharing the Word of God....you cannot share what you have not learned. Ray has expounded over and over ...you got to read what God says....and KNOW that it is true because God does not Lie.
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
One of the local believers has business cards printed up and when he hears babylonean threatning helll for example he simply gives it to them and tells them to read them. On the card are the verses that rebuke what they are saying. He has several topics each with 2 to three verses printed and then just puts a few more that they can look up
he will usually just say
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Roy you really need to download Esword It is the only thing that has helped me.
Being raised Catholic I did not learn the verses, but I did learn Latin. Now, I know what the Bible says, so now I can use the search tool to find it. I still cannot quote one chap or verse unless I am currently studying it. But the Words remain in me.
The only reason I want to know the chapter and verse is so I can share it, so they can read the Word and the Spirit work on them. But I also know that the spirit will work even if you present the light in you. Who knows what (a rose) will provoke a person to READ THE WORD for themselves and have it revealed for the first time.
beloved
-
Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, filled with the Holy Spirit and one with the Father and He was perfect all the days of His life.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
He was always one with the Father, even as a child religious leaders were "astonished at His understanding."
Luke 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
v. 47 And all that heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
v. 48 And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why hast Thou thus dealt with us? behold, Thy father and I have sought Thee sorrowing.
v. 49 And He said unto them, How is it that ye sought Me? wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50 And they understood not the saying which He spake unto them.
v. 51 And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but His mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
v. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
Through this process "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature." He went through the process during His life, as He was "in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 5:8 even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered."
He "learned," Hebrews 2 has it another way... "to make... perfect through sufferings."
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
So we see Jesus was made perfect through sufferings and why was this necessary? Because He was "the author and finisher of our faith."
Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Php 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Here are a couple of emails, that will add to this discussion.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=305.0 -------
First concerning Jesus, When did he receive the Spirit of the Lord?
COMMENT: Jesus Christ WAS CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit!
In Is 11:1-3 it talks about the Spirit resting upon Him as opposed to those in the Old Testament whom the Spirit came upon for a specific purpose and then departed. It appears that John had the Spirit on him until Jesus' baptism, and then it seems like it left him and resided in Jesus permanently.
COMMENT: Nonsense.
Prior to his baptism, Jesus did no recorded supernatural works, did he not have the Spirit from birth? What is your take on this?
COMMENT: "Prior to baptism, Jesus had no recorded supernatural works..." Oh really? And you think that Jesus living a SINLESS LIFE as a teenager is less of a "supernatural work" than turning water into wine?
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm -----------
Christ is the Image of the Invisible God. Christ is EVERYTHING that the Father is, only in the visible flesh of humanity. In that respect Christ IS our Father just as Isaiah prophesied. Jesus said to know Him is to KNOW THE FATHER. So, clearly, we know all that the Father is, THROUGH CHRIST! And that includes FATHERHOOD. Jesus Christ not only was a man, He is now and always will be A MAN. Notice that AFTER Jesus was resurrected and returned to the glory and splendor that He had in the beginning with God, that He is STILL called a MAN,
"For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God." But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS, hence Jesus also has this SAME SPIRIT and therefore there is the "spirit OF Christ" which is the SAME spirit OF God. They BOTH possess the SAME SPIRIT. And as they possess the SAME SPIRIT, they are ONE!
--------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Roy Yes I did think that you did not have E sword. I am glad that you do because it is a great study tool.
I think we may be talking about two different things. Maybe not
Many in Babylon “preach the word”, They can quote scriptures extremely well. But they present the word wrapped in lies and their man made doctrines twist it to suit their needs. They do not understand the spiritual implications. They are the authors of confusion .
On the other hand how does one go out and present the spiritual to those who are totally blind and deaf to it.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Jesus himself used this method
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Yes our lives and actions can have impact but it is the Holy Spirit who needs to work on them. Yes we are salt and light and study and understand the Word.
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day
.
What they need is Faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is totally a work of God
..
Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
I see this psalm talking about those who the spirit quickens, even though a earnest, we are still in partnership with the heavenlies because the spirit of Christ dwells with us.
Do our actions mean nothing Paul tells us
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
And John shows the elect
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death
But also says
2Co 1:18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us--those being saved--it is the power of God
1 (1Co 1:21) for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness
Ray teaches that we are to rebuke these blasphemers. He also states that only some are teachers. If you go out into the world with the intent of arguing and debating , you will not get anywhere unless you are fluent in the Word and the Spirit directs you.
However those who are NOT teachers can also do God’s work, those who God brings into your life you can plant seeds, and teachers can water them….
but we all have to remember it is God that is making them grow, and they will not unless the soil is good.
I think people are seeing the good in your life, you can share what is giving you that Joy.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
(1Pe 3:16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
(1Pe 3:17) For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
Ray also says, when confronted with a trial…always Do what is right in the eyes of God. That is worship and that is true obedience.
Yes I do believe that we all have had experiences that were in a way living parables. There is nothing new under the sun. But these too take spiritual understanding.
The little rose is (the few and feeling alone ) surrounded by( many branches ), on a healthy plant (in good soil) it is poignant especially coming from a burly man (even if he is a horticulturist)
But how many in the world will “really see” the spiritual connection with need for the Spirit. Nature and life is replete with examples of our Great and Wonderful God
So yes I can see what you are talking about and sharing these stories as the seed but I also see the need for the Word of God.
If you have not read this paper perhaps you will see what Ray says
http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
beloved
-
Sorry guys! I do agree with what Rodger said! I was just looking at things from a different perspective, I guess! I'm not really opposing anything at all! I understand what you're talking about. I totally agree that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' teacher! On a human level though I do think Jesus learned a lot about our "plight" by being here from a child. Maybe I'm just on a different wavelength today! I'm totally with you, though! :D
Kathy :)
-
Hi Beloved,
If i understand you correctly, one should be sure to know the Scriptures and always
use The Word properly (Spiritually) to verify any statement that is given as opposed to:
Many in Babylon “preach the word”, They can quote scriptures extremely well. But they present the word wrapped in lies and their man made doctrines twist it to suit their needs. They do not understand the spiritual implications. They are the authors of confusion .
On the other hand how does one go out and present the spiritual to those who are totally blind and deaf to it.
What they need is Faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is totally a work of God
Let me add this very important element to your discussion of The Word.
Eph 2: 8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
george. ;D
-
Ninny Glad you understand, it is just a case of sharpening the sword. I am just becoming more aware of our use of word...I am not free from using them carelessing sometimes.
We have to all go through what that scary avatar of Steves says we all need to be Unlearning what is untrue
Absoloodle George
Eph 2: 8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
All for the Glory of God...
beloved
-
Roy
What I posted is not meant to be a criticsim of what you are doing. Since many come here and read these posts , and the purpose of this forum is unique, what I have written is an attempt to be consistent in what Ray has written about witnessing. That is why I cited the paper.
Roy you are not going through anything different that what any of us have not struggled with. Coming out of babylon is scary. Working out these false teachings is hard. We all need to examine ourselves in everything because the beast wants back on that throne. We all want to shout from the roof tops. It it the scroll that we eat, it is sweet to the mouth but bitter to the stomach, that so many out there cannot see and hear what has been revealed to us.n.
I think the rose story is precious, and nothing to be bothered about. It was not a criticism but an observation God works in all of us differently and uses different methods at differnt times when he is working on us.
God has taken all of us over the coals and through gehenna. Many have felt a spiritual brick hit us in the side of the head, or with two by four or have been slammed down when God wants to show us some thing. It is always better to listen for the whisper. ;D
We all have to mature and grow and endure, this is a place for exhorting and for questioning.
(Eph 4:2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
(Eph 4:3) Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(Eph 4:4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(Eph 4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
I think that many people here have been moved by your testimony Roy and are looking forward to hearing more.
beloved
-
Hi Roy,
I see beloved using Scripture for every point made so far, that is the point when speaking of Spiritual things. There is Scripture that either verifies or refutes our feelings. But in order to have a basis for discussing The Word Of God; we must use The Word Of God. Otherwise we become just like any other Babylonian feeling the spirit or word of the spirit movement. That is where we came from; not where we are heading to. We are to exhort and edify the brethren, that is what we all want to do daily for each other.
Anyone can testify to things in their life; when that testimony start taking on religious meaning then exactly at that point we need Scripture that witnesses to it. Remember that Scripture establishes itself by two or three witnesses.:
Deu 17:6
At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
1Co 14:27
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Any light that is shining must also pass this same test. Beloved is not saying that these things are not happening with you; but it must be backed by witnesses (chapter and verse) to be reliable. Else when we talk to the blind or near blind and near deaf; what is the reference point outside of us for them to check; (it must be The Scriptures).
Mat 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
That light is the same Grace and Faith Of GOD, which is in His Word (Scriptures).
The below Scriptures are where we need to be surpassing; but first let's get the basics right.
Heb 5: 9-14
9 And being perfected, He became the Author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him,
10 being called by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek;
11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to be explained since you are dull of hearing.
12 For indeed because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again what are the first principles of the oracles of God. And you have become in need of milk, and not of solid food.
13 For everyone partaking of milk is unskillful in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, even those who because of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
george. :)
-
Good Day to Everyone,
As you can see,I'm back.
I couldn't sleep at all last night because of the way I reacted to your replies.Please forgive me.
I grew up in a world of defense at all times, and from time to time this old way gets the best of me but not for long.
I am very passionate and sensitive about the testimonies that God has given me.Maybe that's carnal,I don't know.
Have you ever been in a room full of sinners, all on methamphetamine, all night long people coming and going, all very hurt and lonely people,not partying as some would think,but people full of pain trying to escape by dulling their pain with this drug? Its a very sad site.I know because Ive been there.
I came out of prison on fire for God just five years ago.I had no car,no clothes or money and no home except a sister that let me stay with her.She lived 15 miles from town.I wanted desperately to find a job and find some one to help me get a landscaping business started.I couldnt get to town most of the time, no one in the church would help me. A friend finally gave me an old car,I got a job but I just wasnt getting ahead.It wasnt long until I started hanging around with old friends and the drugs and there I was back in the world that I hated.
Its interesting how most of these people on meth. believe in God. I cant count the times that the bible and scriptures would come up and I would be asked about Gods word,(something in the bible) and they would ask how do you know thats true or something like that.These people all had respect for me and always would listen as I had to tell a story, and in these stories they would learn how the scriptures were true and how God works. Yes I was right there with them and how could I be an example,well thats an entirely different story.The point is they or some learned about God in my testimony and they know where I am today in Christ and so you see the different story has come to light to them as I see some of them in passing. I have no doubt that some if not all wants to have what God has given me.They remember the stories.
I want to be able to pull up scriptures as easily as some of you can, but for now I have Gods Work in me in testimonies that aren't just every day stories to those that are lost and full of pain and sorrow.
As a student of Christ, I have to use what I have for now.I will constantly grow in Gods word by seeking Him with all my heart,mind and soul..
Peace and Love to all
Roy Martin
How many times did Jesus use things of nature in his words and parables? Birds,trees,branches,fields, grass,fruit,mountains,flowers.One of His greatest prayers was in a garden.He could have said that prayer any where, but He chose the garden.
Did I teach any of these lost people anything? No I did not.Did they learn something about Gods word from my stories( testimonies)? Yes they did.You would be surprised how many of them have read the bible or have heard them from someone.Remember that these are not people just having a good time getting high.They are in pain and its heart breaking to say the least.My testimonies were something they could relate to and see with their eyes and hear with their ears.It was up to God to take it where ever it would go.I was not teaching but being Gods tool and what a blessing it was and is.
-
God is certainly using you, God has placed you in a unique situation. You are being a light to them by being there and you are showing them that there is a way out. Unfortunately as the cliche goes "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink."
You are also around the type of people that God favors, those at the bottm of the barrel. I hope that you are being careful, these places also can be dangerous, you could get arressted or hurt. It is interesting that God is using a horticulturist to plant seeds. Who knows who among them is ready to hear the Word.
There are many people out in the world. They may not be using drugs etc but they have found other ways to drown out the voice of God. All of us are where God wants us.
I see that you are in Denison TX. I am in nashville, we are both lucky to be in areas where we can enjoy pansies and other foilage most of the year. All I want is enough cold to kill th overpopulation of bugs. I hope this spring brings you more job opportunities. I always keep these verses in mind.
(Pro 30:7) Two things, have I asked of thee, withhold them not from me, ere yet I die:
(Pro 30:8) Vanity and falsehood, remove far from me, Neither poverty nor riches, give me, Feed me with the food appointed me:
(Pro 30:9) Lest I be full, and deny, and say-Who is Yahweh? or lest I be impoverished and steal, and do violence to the Name of my God.
beloved
-
i just joined, so i am new at this, but let me share on the question raised by ELLEN
and CHARLES, who said:
"With that being said, I deeply feel that our time is coming.
I can't imagine that God would reveal such wonderful truths to us, for us to just bury them.
Scripture states in Matt 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world, a city that is set on a hill cannot be hid."
...
i was converted during the JESUS FREAKS days in 1971.
i had a very intense and personal experience of JESUS in spite of the fact that when IT happened,
i was as far away as i could be from HIM and neither was i consciously seeking HIM:
i was a truly LOST sheep!
this event was followed by joining others who had had a similar experience.
we met primarily at coffee houses and parks and each others rooms, reading the scriptures together.
it was a wonder-full time, a walking on air kind of experience.
eventually we were too large for a regular table at the cafe, so we started looking for a place.
a campus church offered us their meeting room, then something happened:
they invited us to attend sunday services... and most of us did... and then gradually
the group scattered and we all went our own ways. most joined churches.
what happened was that the majority got 'churched' and out of their walk.
thus FAITH slips/decays into BELIEF. i truly believe this is what happened to many.
so i think there may be a call to re-convert those called and chosen that
allowed themselves to become religious rather than FAITH-FULL.
coincidentally i just read ROB BELL's new book:
JESUS WANTS TO SAVE CHRISTIANS: a manifesto for the church in exile.
-
i just joined, so i am new at this, but let me share on the question raised by ELLEN
and CHARLES, who said:
"With that being said, I deeply feel that our time is coming.
I can't imagine that God would reveal such wonderful truths to us, for us to just bury them.
Scripture states in Matt 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world, a city that is set on a hill cannot be hid."
...
i was converted during the JESUS FREAKS days in 1971.
i had a very intense and personal experience of JESUS in spite of the fact that when IT happened,
i was as far away as i could be from HIM and neither was i consciously seeking HIM:
i was a truly LOST sheep!
this event was followed by joining others who had had a similar experience.
we met primarily at coffee houses and parks and each others rooms, reading the scriptures together.
it was a wonder-full time, a walking on air kind of experience.
eventually we were too large for a regular table at the cafe, so we started looking for a place.
a campus church offered us their meeting room, then something happened:
they invited us to attend sunday services... and most of us did... and then gradually
the group scattered and we all went our own ways. most joined churches.
what happened was that the majority got 'churched' and out of their walk.
thus FAITH slips/decays into BELIEF. i truly believe this is what happened to many.
so i think there may be a call to re-convert those called and chosen that
allowed themselves to become religious rather than FAITH-FULL.
coincidentally i just read ROB BELL's new book:
JESUS WANTS TO SAVE CHRISTIANS: a manifesto for the church in exile.
Rob Bell is a heretic...just like all the Christian ministers in the world.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8871.0.html
If Christendom teaches it, it is 100% false.
Marques
-
Marques said, "a heretic ... just like all the Christian ministers in the world."
MARQUES, can i disagree with you on this and remain in the group?
because THAT has not been my experience.
respectfully,
hector
-
When ever you are reading other "christian" teachers you need to always remember .
(2Co 11:13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(2Co 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(2Co 11:15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
You need to read and discern all teachings. There are too many smooth talkers out there so we all need to be critical and pray that God will reveal thier lies.
beloved
-
BELOVED,
there's NO doubt in my mind that there's error and heresy and half-truths within CHURCHDOM;
however, to claim that there is NO righteous CHRISTIANS within her is IMO to cross over into infallibility.
we cannot know why some of GOD's beloved have stayed or asked by our FATHER to stay within.
which reminds me of ELIJAH, when thinking that he is the only one left
who has not betrayed GOD but GOD corrects him:
And I will leave over in Israel seven thousand,
whose knees did not kneel to the Baal and every mouth that did not kiss him.
again, i am not here defending ROB BELL or being argumentative,
i just thought the title of his book applied to my post and the discussion.
-
Hi Hector,
You should come to a point in your spiritual walk that you do not feel at home in a church building that is where Stan has his throne. Ray wrote an article (#10 in the LoF) on this 'The Synagogue of Satan - There's One Near You.' It explains in much detail what the church is about, here is the link http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html
Here is an excerpt from article #13 from the LoF and a email that will give you a brief explanation.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ---------------------------
The Great Church in Revelation is called:
"Mystery BABYLON THE GREAT, The Mother of harlots, and abominations of the earth" (Rev. 17:5).
This great church decidedly does NOT spiritually dwell in the heavens, but is ‘of the earth, earthy.’ This great church is built upon the spiritual sand of this world’s doctrines. And being built on sand, SHE WILL FALL:
"And there followed another angel, saying Babylon IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, that great city [‘For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children’ Gal. 4:25], because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8).
And this…
"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (Rev. 18:5).
And so, dear reader, if you have built your spiritual house upon the sand of this world’s great Church, you are warned to COME OUT OF HER, because she is going to fall, and "GREAT will be the fall of it."
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,533.0.html -------
Dear Reader:
God has always witnessed against unbelieving Israel (His Church), as well as witnessng to those He chose to live by faith within the Nation/Church.
Under the New Covenant, this choosing of the faithful involved a more pronounced departure from the main group. Paul witnessed to Gentiles in the Synagogues of the Jews, for example, but when they believed Paul's message concerning Jesus Christ, they left the synagogue and met in private homes of like believers.
The truth is, once one begins to believe God's Word and live by God's Word, he will not need to come out of the Church or leave the Church, the Church will KICK HIM OUT! I can personally attest to this.
Each generation who reads the book of revelation will see their sins presented--both to the called and the chosen. Of course, the called have always believed that they are the chosen. It's just God's way to conceal a matter for HIs own ultimate majesty.
Tartaroo is a subject to the next HELL Part C paper.
God be with you,
Ray
-
BELOVED,
there's NO doubt in my mind that there's error and heresy and half-truths within CHURCHDOM;
however, to claim that there is NO righteous CHRISTIANS within her is IMO to cross over into infallibility.
we cannot know why some of GOD's beloved have stayed or asked by our FATHER to stay within.
which reminds me of ELIJAH, when thinking that he is the only one left
who has not betrayed GOD but GOD corrects him:
And I will leave over in Israel seven thousand,
whose knees did not kneel to the Baal and every mouth that did not kiss him.
again, i am not here defending ROB BELL or being argumentative,
i just thought the title of his book applied to my post and the discussion.
we cannot know why some of GOD's beloved have stayed or asked by our FATHER to stay within.
^^^
Email to Ray;
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5085.msg40000.html#msg40000
Dear Dr. Smith: Too big a subject for an email, but I will make a few comments. Christian doctrine is built upon paganism, superstition, erroneous translations, and hideous doctrines of men. Of course, those persons who are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will not be in the kingdom reign of Jesus Christ. But that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of humanity's eternal destiny.
"Many are called but few as chosen" is a statement of fact, not a statement of eternal exclusion. God has predetermined to choose out a chosen elect FEW. These will enter into the Kingdom of God which will then bring about the salvation of the rest of humanity through Judgment. Judgment is upon the chosen few House of God NOW (I Pet. 4:17). When the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth like the waters cover the sea, then, not now but then, "Because He hath appointed a day, IN THE WHICH He will judge the world in RIGHTEOUSNESS..." (Acts 17:31). "WHEN [not now, but 'when'] Thy Judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).
Those who enter the straight and narrow (difficult) way will enter into the Kingdom of God, but those who go the broad way will go into DESTRUCTION. This is certainly true. However. What is the final destiny of those who go the broad way to destruction. Is there hope for the lost, the perish, the destroyed? Duh!! Jesus said, "The Son of Man is come to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10, Matt. 18:11).
The word translated "lost" is the Greek word "apollumi" which is translated "LOST," "PERISHED," and "DESTROYED." Jesus Christ said that He is come to SAVE all those who are "apollumi"--destroyed, perished, and lost.
But does anyone believe Jesus? NOT MANY. Like I said, too big a subject for an email.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
-
george,
if CARNAL shows up, you have my permission to call it as you see it.
interesting that you mentioned that our task is mostly UNLEARNING
what has been poured into each of us for years
and errors layered on top of errors over the GOSPEL for centuries.
which is why i was thrilled to read RAY's tenacious deconstruction
and removal of the rubble: making the GOOD NEWS GOOD again!
Hector,
I just read a book review of: JESUS WANTS TO SAVE CHRISTIANS. Just from the review
i can say that the book has nothing in common with BT.
BTW,
Jesus Christ, Does not want to save christians; He is The Saviour Of All (The Whole) World.
1Ti 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Remember All the truths you learn here, you did not buy, and it is priceless. Those in the world who sell another gospel for financial gain, cannot be lumped in with BT or The Gospel Of The Kingdom since we are called (dragged) out of those very dens of iniquity. There was another thread here recently about that very subject of bell's; you can find it and do a little reading for no cost other than time.
Rev 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 18: 1-51
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
george :).
-
Could you explain the following statement more
You posted
there's NO doubt in my mind that there's error and heresy and half-truths within CHURCHDOM;
however, to claim that there is NO righteous CHRISTIANS within her is IMO to cross over into infallibility.
Now I can understand that there may be some saints still in Babylon who may be destined to have their eyes and ears are opened then they will have to deal with these scriptures and commands
(Rev 18:4) And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,
(2Co 6:17) wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I--I will receive you,
you posted
we cannot know why some of GOD's beloved have stayed or asked by our FATHER to stay within
Can you give scriptural proof of these two states, those who have stayed knowing the truth and those who know the truth and have been "asked by the Father" to stay there.
I do not seeing that the Father "asking any one", but I do see that it is His Will for the many to remain blind and deaf to His word and some that have to wait until he is ready to heal them.
No one has said that Christendom did not have some truths but they are always wrapped in lies and false doctrines. They themselves are blind to them and even what they say some times is prophesy about and against themselves.
There is no one here on earth that is Righteous...not one ...except Him
(Mat 19:17) And he said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One--God; but if thou dost will to enter into the life, keep the commands.'
beloved
-
GEORGE, my post originated due to reading posts by ELLEN and CHARLES, who were pondering how or when to approach family members who are still members of a church, thus i used rob bell's book title JESUS WANTS TO SAVE CHRISTIANS. and, OF COURSE, i know that HE wants to save ALL. it is within that context that i tought the title applicable.
to KAT, et al: a question:
is the coming out of BABYLON a once-and-for-all deal or is it a process.
by that i mean: when we first hear the command to get out of her and we obey after being a part for several years; is it just enough to quit the church--detaching ourselves physically--to shed all the falsity that we've assimilated over the years? or is it a gradual process as the HOLY SPIRIT leads us into all truth.
in my own experience--having been raised catholic from birth, and a true conversion as an adult and forsaking the church very early on; i feel it is still an on-going process, at least it is for me.
-
Hector,
You wrote.
there's NO doubt in my mind that there's error and heresy and half-truths within CHURCHDOM;
however, to claim that there is NO righteous CHRISTIANS within her is IMO to cross over into infallibility.
The infallibility is GOD'S Own Declaration Through His Word (Jesus Christ Our Lord and Saviour And King)
in my own experience--having been raised catholic from birth, and a true conversion as an adult and forsaking the church very early on; i feel it is still an on-going process, at least it is for me.
Pro 3:5-7
5 Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding."
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He Himself shall straighten your paths."
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear Yahweh and withdraw from evil.
I had to listen to J Hagee while we were having breakfast this morning. Several times i had to refute
what he was saying while my mouth was full. It is very discomfitting to listen the half truths and
psuedo scripture the ministers in christendom use to fool the flock.
Bad enough if they themselves are decieved (blind leading blind). Much worse when thay deliberatly
twist The Scriptures to encompass their Hell, Tithe, and Everlasting doctrines. Committing a crime
out of ignorance is no excuse; doing same with The Scriptures; with intent to decieve and profit is
practicing Heresy.
Mal 1:14
But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a
corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.
Mat 7:15-16
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Act 20:28-31
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,
to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them.
31 Therefore watch and remember that for the time of three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
george. :)
-
Hi Hector,
when we first hear the command to get out of her and we obey after being a part for several years; is it just enough to quit the church--detaching ourselves physically--to shed all the falsity that we've assimilated over the years? or is it a gradual process as the HOLY SPIRIT leads us into all truth.
Well it would have to be both. I spent most of my life in church too (there was a few of my teenage years that I did not attend). As an young adult I felt that I had found the truth (first love of Christ) and was devoted to serving God, but felt it had to be done in the church. Thus I fell away and left my 'first love,' as devotion to the church began to replaced my love for Him :-\
When I finally 'heard the command to get out of her,' many years later, I did detach myself from the church physically and removed myself form the heretical teachings that are like poison. But it has been an ongoing process to "to shed all the falsity that we've assimilated over the years." I'm sure I will continue to be getting rid of false teachings for the rest of my days, as they do become deeply embedded into our way of thinking.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
I had to listen to J Hagee while we were having breakfast this morning.
George,I hope you did't choke on your breakfast. ;D yikes
Thanks Mark,
As a matter of choking, yes but only slightly. I was too busy trying to shut up so i could finish eating.
Of course he (Hagee) had to bring up about weak faith (go straight to hell ??? ); i couldn't stop (Heresy)
and lying deciever, plus that thing about dead mens bones :o (Thoughts) from boiling to the tip of my lips.
Well the evidence i survived is, you are reading this post.
george :).
-
GEORGE wrote,
"The infallibility is GOD'S Own Declaration Through His Word (Jesus Christ Our Lord and Saviour And King)."
ABSOLUTELY! AMEN!
BUT are we infallible in our readings and interpretations?
always right?
again i can only go by my own learning-way:
i know a bit more today than yesterday,
and that's the way we IMO we are gradually MATURED into the MIND of CHRIST.
my understading is that having the mind of CHRIST is not automatic.
we received the SPIRIT so that we MIGHT understand.
so that since we are in still in-process,
we may get some things wrong while the WORD of GOD is ALWAYS TRUE!
which is why we are made into a BODY so that TOGETHER
we may complement, build and mature each others up.
-
thanks KAT, that has been my experience too.
so, to clarify my position:
i do think that there are a myriad of brothers and sisters (also called & chosen)
that are--as we speak--in the process of detaching themselves from the harlot.
these are are just like the 11th hour workers in the parable....
arriving late but will get the same wages as the early risers.
i sense that this EXODUS is ongoing.
FATHER is gathering all of HIS sheep,
specially the ONE (still within the church system) for whose rescue HE leaves the 99.
-
I think that we all need to be careful listening to, or taking, any man's word as truth. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
As Universalist we believe the "ALL" but do we believe the nones?
Rev 12:9and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
Rev 18:23….all nations deceived."
To know your position is… to know that ALL are, at some level, still deceived. ALL …the whole world, ALL the nations, and each and every one of us.
We are each charged with working salvation out OURSELVES.
Php 2:12 …work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
And to not just listen to what men have to say.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I believe that anytime you put your faith in ANY MAN, you are putting yourself in a dangerous position.
Brad
-
Ray, has an email entitled One Mans Testimony. It is a good one to read. Some, men believe in Universal Salvation, but carry teachings over from when they were in Babylon. They have one foot in and one foot out. But, I believe that we can discern with scriptures. I have seed some of those who Ray speaks of. We have to test everything with scriptures or we could be deceived.
Ray, backs his teaching with the Scriptures. Many of them do not even quote a scripture. Just thought you might want to go in and read it . It is quite long. But, I believe God has led me to lots of truths. I also, believe he can finish what he started.
In His Love,
Marlene
-
Hi Hector,
You are on to something now:
my understanding is that having the mind of CHRIST is not automatic. we received the SPIRIT so that we MIGHT understand.
We receive the Spirit of Understanding when He Knows we are ready for it not before.
Luk 24:44-45
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
so that since we are in still in-process, we may get some things wrong while the WORD of GOD is ALWAYS TRUE!
So we let Scripture interpret Scripture; Jesus Christ Himself said:
Joh 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
which is why we are made into a BODY so that TOGETHER we may complement, build and mature each others up.
Eph 4:16
from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
george. ;D
-
Brad,
Scripture explains itself and interprets Scripture, you really need to read all the words. Ray has
always stressed, Read THE WORDS, ALL the words.
You do need to read all the words verse 9-11
Rev 12: 9-11
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
You do need to read all the words verse 1-9
Mat 15:1-9
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
You do need to read all the words verse 12 and 13.
The reason you work out your own salvation with fear and trembling is because you do not understand
that Verse 13 explains verse 12:
Php 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my
absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
george. :)
-
Hi Brad,
We all were indeed "once decieved." But now a few are having their eyes opened to this truth.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
God "draws" more like drags us to Him and begin to teach us the truth, which removes the deception.
James 1:16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
v. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
When we give our life to Christ (only because He has drawn us to Him) we no longer lean on our own or any man's understanding.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
George,
Thank you for correcting me. Being yet a babe, I misspeak sometimes. I was trying to make the point that it's between God and individual man, not man and man. I was trying to make the point that the reason I came out of the "church" was to get away form the deceitful doctrines of men and I will never take the words of "any man" as truth again. God willing!
I was trying to make the point that:
Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If you listen to man, you have to understand their (and our, and my) sinful position.
My point is no earthly man has the whole truth.
Brad
Brad
-
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
hey my freind we can see that he was hearing the doctors, and they were astonished for as he was hearing them he was answering them with his under standing and then his wisdom grew.
-
Hey Kenny
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
hey my freind we can see that he was hearing the doctors, and they were astonished for as he was hearing them he was answering them with his under standing and then his wisdom grew.
Scripture clearly says:
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and (his)answers.
Jesus was in the midst of them, as he always is but doing what? Teaching
He heard the doctors, he even heard thier answers.
They new scripture, but did not have understanding and therefore had not wisdom
Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If he never learned according to the Jews, where did he learn? From his Father!
Also something to consider in Jesus' learning process:
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
This statement shows his great understanding over his earthly parents.
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
This next verse is great!!
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Even though he had this great wisdom he was still subject to his earthly parents.
If Jesus was asked to sweep the floor, he swept the floor
If Jesus was asked to take out the trash, he took it out
Also the question of Jesus' learning obedience by the things he suffered goes way beyond his earthly life
You might want to check out the Nashville 2007 conference.
There seems like I could say more as I'm thinking about this(as if ray hasn't said enough) but I'll wait for your response.
Antaiwan
-
hey Antaiwan
MY FRIEND THANK YOU, THIS IS SO COOL.
I HAVE BEEN TO SEVERAL CHRISTIAN SITES ON THE WEB AND ALL I HAVE EVER GOT IN RESPONCE WAS AMEN AND NOW HERE I GET WHAT WE ALL NEED (SPRIRITUAL RIB EYE WITH HOLY SPIRIT SAUCE).
THANKS FOR THE RESPONCE FREIND I WILL RETURN THE FLAVOR SOON
-
Antaiwan,
Here are other Scriptures that absolutely back up the NT Scriptures you have quoted.
Job was questioned by GOD way back in The OT. Based on just these few of questions; it is plain
to see that Jesus Christ did not need to learn anything from any earthly person or source.
Job 38: 1-17 (CLV) Concordant Literal Version
1 Then Yahweh answered Job from the tempest and said:
2 Who is this who darkens counsel By declarations without knowledge?
3 Belt up your loins now like a master; I shall ask of you, and you inform Me.
4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell if you know with understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements--for surely you know! Or who stretched out a tape upon it?
6 On what were its sockets sunk? Or who directed its cornerstone in place,
7 When the stars of the morning jubilated together, And all the sons of Elohim shouted with joy?
8 Who shut in the sea with double doors When it rushed forth, it came forth from the womb,
9 When I made a cloud its garment And murkiness its swaddling band,
10 When I set My statute upon it And broke bar and doors,
11 When I said, Unto here shall you come but shall not proceed farther, And here a limit is set to the pride of your billows?
12 In all your days have you ever instructed the morning? Have you made known to the dawn its place,
13 That it might take hold of the wings of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It turns itself to hues like sealed clay And is streaked like a garment.
15 Then from the wicked their light is withheld And the exalted arm is broken.
16 Have you ever come unto the seepings of the sea Or walked about to fathom the abyss?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you, And have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?
Pray tell, what can puny man in all his few years of grubbing around in the dirt; teach The Creator?.
Pro 8: 22-35 (GNB) Good News Bible
22 "The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago.
23 I was made in the very beginning, at the first, before the world began.
24 I was born before the oceans, when there were no springs of water.
25 I was born before the mountains, before the hills were set in place,
26 before God made the earth and its fields or even the first handful of soil.
27 I was there when he set the sky in place, when he stretched the horizon across the ocean,
28 when he placed the clouds in the sky, when he opened the springs of the ocean
29 and ordered the waters of the sea to rise no further than he said. I was there when he laid the earth's foundations.
30 I was beside him like an architect, I was his daily source of joy, always happy in his presence---
31 happy with the world and pleased with the human race.
32 "Now, young people, listen to me. Do as I say, and you will be happy.
33 Listen to what you are taught. Be wise; do not neglect it.
34 Those who listen to me will be happy--- those who stay at my door every day, waiting at the entrance to my home.
35 Those who find me find life, and the LORD will be pleased with them.
36 Those who do not find me hurt themselves; anyone who hates me loves death."
These Scriptures are only parts of two chapters in The Bible; how many chapters in total does it have.
george. ;D
-
Hey Kenny
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
hey my freind we can see that he was hearing the doctors, and they were astonished for as he was hearing them he was answering them with his under standing and then his wisdom grew.
Scripture clearly says:
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and (his)answers.
Jesus was in the midst of them, as he always is but doing what? Teaching
He heard the doctors, he even heard thier answers.
They new scripture, but did not have understanding and therefore had not wisdom
Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If he never learned according to the Jews, where did he learn? From his Father!
Also something to consider in Jesus' learning process:
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
This statement shows his great understanding over his earthly parents.
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
This next verse is great!!
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Even though he had this great wisdom he was still subject to his earthly parents.
If Jesus was asked to sweep the floor, he swept the floor
If Jesus was asked to take out the trash, he took it out
Also the question of Jesus' learning obedience by the things he suffered goes way beyond his earthly life
You might want to check out the Nashville 2007 conference.
There seems like I could say more as I'm thinking about this(as if ray hasn't said enough) but I'll wait for your response.
Antaiwan
Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If he never learned according to the Jews, where did he learn? From his Father!
ALSO THIS
Matthew;
13 And when Jesus had come into the regions of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying: Who do men say that the Son of man is?
14 They said: Some, John the Baptist, but others, Elijah, and yet others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.
15 He says to them: But who say you that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answering said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.
Its a beautiful thing when one understands that all is of the Father.When Simon Peter was asked of by Jesus,
But who say you that I am?
Simon Peter's answer was exactly what our Father wanted Peter's answer to be.When Jesus was asking Peter the question, our Father in heaven was already giving the answer through Peters mouth,the Word is the truth for our Father can never lie.Only through the Father could Peter give the correct response,because, when Jesus was asking Peter the question ,He was asking the Father, and the Father spoke out of Peters mouth. For flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.
Now,can any man say that ones will is free? To quote Brother Ray "I speak as a fool".
Understanding your position... YES INDEED...
All Praise and Glory to our Father in heaven.
Amen.
Peace...Mark